Haida Gwaii Mod (This round of beta closed)

[Foodstamp]

I am currently working on a mod for Dominions 3 titled "Haida Gwaii". This mod is loosely based on the First Nations of the Pacific Northwest. These nations include the Haida, Tlinget and Tsimshian cultures that lived between the Washington state area to as far north as Alaska.

Goals of the Mod include:

Thematic Goals:

Expand upon the realistic history and mythology of these cultures without taking liberties that would contradict their traditions or beliefs.

Gameplay Goals:

Overall, Add a new nation that is a bit different from the rest of the Early Age nations. No berserker units http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.

Specific gameplay goals include:

Adding and balancing a sacred trampler.

Presenting mages with very focused magic picks.

Adding a new effective middle of the road pretender to give people something different to play than an SC or a caster type.







What does this mod add?

A new playable nation that does not overwrite other nations.

13 new units to recruit, 3 national heroes, 2 nation specific pretenders and 2 national summon spells.

*****UPDATE******

I am looking for beta testers to test Haida Gwaii.


Screenshots!------------------------------------

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/458182-haida2.jpg

[Foodstamp]

Screenshot of the description screen...
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/458184-haida4.jpg

[Nerfix]

Oooh, looks very cool. =)

[Gandalf Parker]

Excellent. You seem to have done your homework and it seems very compatable to the general feel of Dominions.

[Endoperez]

Gandalf Parker said:
Excellent. You seem to have done your homework and it seems very compatable to the general feel of Dominions.



I saw this thread, read through it, was interested but didn't really know what to say. Gandalf summed it up perfectly. This fits. It's one of the few mods that I can remember that really fit the feel well. Keep up the good work!

[Tortanick]

Nice work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I look forward to seeing it.

The first paragraph could use some improvement though, I'd add a bit more details about their ancient history and deffentately remove the word "pretender" and "wishes to assend to godhood" the first one is never mentioned in nation descriptions because the nation allways believe their god is allready a true god. And we all know he wishes to assend http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Foodstamp]

Tortanick said:
Nice work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I look forward to seeing it.

The first paragraph could use some improvement though, I'd add a bit more details about their ancient history and deffentately remove the word "pretender" and "wishes to assend to godhood" the first one is never mentioned in nation descriptions because the nation allways believe their god is allready a true god. And we all know he wishes to assend http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Good points, to be honest a few other things bother me about the description as well. I speak of a hierarchy of tribes, and then I talk about them being equal. And also the end sentence where I speak of the animal ancestors lured to the potlatch. I can do better than that.

I think I am going to change the description and have it go into more detail about the Potlatch. Also I will have it told more from their point of view like you suggest, replacing pretender with a word that feels like they believe this is the real god.

Thanks again for the great comments, here is screenshot of a new pretender...

(Graphics come from Age of Wonders and Civ3, Retouched and recolored a bit. Final release of the mod will have a version that uses existing dominions 3 graphics so people can choose.)

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/458443-haida1.jpg

[Tortanick]

Pretender, that explains why he is so huge http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

A brightly coloured raven takes some getting used to but I'm sure you have you're reasons. I read the creation story just now and you've done a great job makeing it fit

I have a suggestion:

change the name, I know in the traditional story he is called raven but a minor inaccuracy is a small price to pay for people to not think he's a mortal bird all the time.

[Endoperez]

Heh... "The forces seem to consist of mainly Atlatl Throwers and Hunters. A lone Raven was seen flying above the army." A trickster indeed! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Nerfix]

Haha, yeah.

[Amos]

Be careful with black. I would change all 0/0/0-10/10/10 colors to at least one 11 if you dont want the game to see them as pure black. I only just noticed it.

[Gandalf Parker]

Yes apparently pure black, pure white, and pure magenta should only be used on purpose since the game has special recognitions of those colors.

[Amos]

What I meant was, the game recognizes as pure black not just pure black.

[DrPraetorious]

Is work on this mod still ongoing? I'd like to include it in my first "Seven Nation Army" multiple-unit expansion, if that is possible.

[Foodstamp]

Aye, work is still going on the mod, but I will not be able to wrap it up until next week.

It is fully playable at the moment, a few final minor things need to be done before I release it.

You are welcome to include it in your expansion when it is finished.

[HoneyBadger]

I just want to say that this is a really good idea for a nation, and I'm glad to see it's being handled well. I live in America, and America tends to be viewed as not too spiritual of an environment, even by Neil Gaiman, one of my favorite authors, atleast as far as myths and gods and
"old world" beliefs and superstitions go, but that's very much a miscomprehension. Like everywhere else, North and South America are saturated with myths and legends, heroes, gods, and monsters, and real people, right now today, are in touch with that. It's something that's important to me, and it's something that's often enough been mistreated and damaged, here, in Europe, in Asia, Africa, Australia. That connection is fragile and I like to see it respected, because I hold the belief-and I don't care what religion you belong to or don't belong to, whether you believe in something or don't believe in something or aren't sure-that the connection between us and the unknowable is what keeps us human.

Keep up the good work!

[Foodstamp]

HoneyBadger,

I hope I do the nation justice. I studied the native peoples of the northwest in my Religions of the World and Cultural Anthropology classes. Using that information and every bit of detail I could scrounge up on the internet, including even hard to find tidbits of language, I delved into doing this nation.

My main goal is to create a fantasy nation that does not contradict their beliefs. With a focus on nature, air and water magics, I hope to balance this nation out with a +1 cold scale and the penalty of extra resource cost for units (To symbolize the heavy reciprocity from the potlatch.)

All the grunt work is done at the moment. I have been testing it heavily in Single Player as an AI alot of times, and the nation seems to do about average/below average.

I was planning on releasing it super soon, as in this week, but I have decided to wait until the next patch because there is talk that true national summons will be introduced. If that is the case, that gives me some elbow room to introduce a few spells I wanted to add, and I should be able to have the nation functioning atleast on an average win/loss versus other AIs.

Thanks again for the comments !

[Foodstamp]

Here is a picture of the second nation specific pretender for Haida Gwaii.

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http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/473047-haida5.JPG
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Overpowered? It is based on the Monolith, but has 3 paths of magic. You can make a triple bless pretender out of it if you take abyssmal scales and imprision it with Dominion of 4.

[Endoperez]

It's a suberb researcher-pretender, and probably too cheap at 10 points. It should have some other tag (#immobile, #inanimate) to remove the fist attack.

[Foodstamp]

Endo,

good catch on the fist attack, i had not even noticed it. I will fix that bug and maybe try a higher price. Any opinion on what would be an appropriate point cost? I am thinking it should not be too much higher because it is pretty comparable to the monolith except for the extra path.

[Endoperez]

Can't help with the cost. The only 3-pack pretenders in base Dominions are the Mictlan-spesific human pretender and Lord of Rebirth. Try comparing those two to normal titans and 2-pick rainbows.

[Foodstamp]

I am currently testing a new version of the mod. We will call it .03 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

-Cleaned up Nation Description a bit

-Added Frenzied Werebear Summon (Nation Specific)

-Added Thunderbird Summon (Nation Specific)

-Added Kachina as a midrange commander/low priest

-Adjusted extra resource cost of units to represent potlatch gifting (Nation penalty/weakness)

-Adjusted unset cost of Crest Pole pretender and took away fist attack.

[HoneyBadger]

This is a really nice mod, especially the artwork.

I hope you will consider writing more along these lines, especially considering the different eras, since that's personally an important subject to me.

Certainly the mythological background is in place for expanding the amount of Native American nations that we have, and I'd certainly like to see more, since they are so varied from one another.

Thank you for all your hard work and for contributing a needed and excellent nation to Dom3.

[Foodstamp]

I am currently looking for beta testers for Haida Gwaii.

At the moment the nation is fully playable and the mod seems to work fine without any crashes.

I need beta testers who are willing to test the following:

-Unit usage (Does every unit have a use?)

-Unit balance (Do any of the units have serious balance issues?)

-Unit cost (Are any of the unit costs strange compared to existing units in the official game?)

-Early, mid and late game performance. (Does this nation have what it takes to hang in there during all phases of the game?)

If you decide to test this mod, keep in mind that I want to balance this nation, but I want it to exceed other nations in certain areas and be weak in others. So something may seem powerful, but there is probably another area where the nation is weak.

If you are interested in testing this mod, send me a private message with your email adress and I will send the file to you. Once beta is done, I will upload the mod for the entire community to access http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Foodstamp]

An update, could use 1 or 2 more testers for the mod. Thanks to all the people who have signed up so far http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Aeshi]

Looks nice....hope you get it done soon!

[Shovah32]

I still need a .zip file sent to me.

[Foodstamp]

Ok shovah, I sent you a zipped version of the mod. If anyone else needs a zipped version over the .rar version let me know. Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Foodstamp]

************Progress report ***********

-Opened first round of beta

******** To be done*********

Rewrite many of the descriptions for units and run through spell check while I wait for feedback from beta testers.

Considering adding an amphibious recruitable unit and the "toad" summon that mictlan currently has access to.

Readme file with included credit to artists if possible, and atleast cite the origin of the graphics.

[Shovah32]

I was just thinking that some amphibious or even aquatic summons may be fun

[Foodstamp]

Killer Whale summon would make me tight in the pants, but currently I cannot find a graphic for such a unit.

[PDF]

Huh, looks pretty good, and very Dominionesque in spirit ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Can I have one please (drop me a pm) ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

As for the new pretender, I find the Raven very weak- he lacks all slots except misc, has few hp... He could have a smaller path cost (20-30 for example) plus another boost somewhere (gem generation, whatever..).

The Pole is nice but lacks focus - I mean he has 3 paths but other are costly (so not rainbow), and making any path high would be costly also because they start at 1.
What about adding 1 level (where it's most thematic - dunno where http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) and reducing path cost to 40 ? Also he could have 3 or 4 misc like Oracle.

[Foodstamp]

PDF, you can have the last spot for this round of beta. Just send me a private message with your email address and I will send you this version of the mod.

[Foodstamp]

Changes slated for 0.91 of Haida Gwaii

-Coyote regains sacred

-Reduce gold cost on coyote

-High end mages (Voice of the Killer Whales, Eagle Talon) gain a 25% chance of 1a/1w/1n.

-Increase research bonus on the Voice of the Killer Whales.

-Reduce gold costs slightly on the mundane units.

-Thunderbirds get lightning attack with stun effect.

-Thunderbirds defense raised.

-Frenzied Moksgmol becomes sacred, increased gem cost.

***Bug, no boot slots on commanders

(Waiting on more feedback)

[HoneyBadger]

Foodstamp, I hope you don't mind that I'm taking my time with your mod. I'm low on personal time anyway so I kind of have to juggle things. In return, I'll see if I can find or draw a nice Orca unit, and maybe come up with another idea for an aquatic or amphibious summons.

[Foodstamp]

No no, take your time. The great thing about modding for games is the lack of a deadline. The "to do" list I have made so far is just what I have processed from feedback I have received. As I get more feedback, that list will be revised and/or added to.

If you could find or create an orca sprite, I would be deeply indebted. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[HoneyBadger]

Here you go, 1 orka. I didn't do the artwork, I just captured a screen of an Orca miniature, changed the size, blackscreened it, and cleaned it up a little, but it's not too bad-a little rough around the edges, and you'll probably want to modify it some to create a second image, but it should be a good head-start for you. Just convert to .tga

[Shovah32]

Nice image badger, hope to see it in soon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

[Foodstamp]

I am terrible when it comes to sprites, but I will see if I can make a passable Orca with it. Thanks HoneyB.

[HoneyBadger]

Ok, so far I really like what you've done.

A couple of things though-I think coyote should be sacred.

It wouldn't be too bad of an idea to have a third recruitable national sacred, if you're leaning that way over summons (see below)-maybe a moose, off the top of my head, since they're in the game already, or a raven.

Killer whale summon would help a lot, as would a second, high-level commander-bear summon, maybe something along the lines of a sacred were-bear shaman. I'm also thinking maybe a were-raven summonable mage with access to some death magic, since ancient Native Americans often communed with various spirits, including the spirits of their ancestors. I'd really like to see lots of summons for Haida, especially low level sacred animal summons.

For that matter, I'd really like to see more nation-specific Pretenders. The two you have are great, but more would really be nice.

I was concerned that Moksgmol would be too powerful under a bless effect-and they are powerful, but I don't think unbalanced at the start of the game. They may become so, though, in longer games, with a high Dom and a Nature 9 bless. I think they'd make a better level 1 or level 2 summon, personally, but the loss of them would leave the Haida rather weak. Maybe if you had raven, coyote, and a third relatively weak but sacred animal as recruitables, and then expand on the sacred animals theme into more powerful animals as summonables.

I have a feeling too that the Haida are likely to have other mythological beings besides animals that would make fine summons.

I'm not that familiar with the mythological and historical origins of this mod, but I love the flavor, and I want more. What you have is terrific, and the various parts are excellently crafted, it just doesn't feel quite done yet.

I will try to look into the legends of the Haida, so that I can suggest some beings who might be appropriate, and if you need more artwork, I'll be happy to help supply it.

In closing (and I'll continue to play and post about Haida), I'm a greedy, dissatisfied, bitter old gamer, and proud of it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Foodstamp]

I am glad your enjoying the mod. In the next version of the beta, expect a return of the Sacred Coyote! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I am kicking around the idea of adding another recruitable animal unit, something amphibious for the Voice of the Killer Whales to lead around. I will consider making that guy sacred if it fits thematically.

I am open to suggestions for a 3rd pretender. I created the two that are currently in the mod a few months ago. At the time my goal was to create a support/bless chasis and a middle of the road pretender. I think the Crest Pole and the Raven serve those roles well.

The Moksgmol being powerful is one of the strengths of Haida Gwaii. If you think that guy is powerful, wait until you summon the Frenzied Moksgmol who may be getting bumped up to sacred status next beta. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

The mythologies of the various peoples this mod represents is a bit too broad for me to sum up in one post. But let me try to give you a gist of the backbone of their beliefs:


Their people are divided through a moiety system, meaning they trace their lineage back to two distinct sources, the Raven and the Eagle. Different families believe they are descended from different animals and there are strict rules about who you can marry etc. based upon which moiety your particular animal is part of.

This belief system is a recurring theme in their fables. Animals take on human characteristics and are just as an important in the stories as the human characters.


The first obvious place to look for information on the Haida in particular is Wikipedia, but surprisingly there is not much there about their people.

I would suggest doing a google search for the following terms as well:

"Potlatch"
"Raven steals the sun"
"Haida fish carver"
"Haida weapons"

These searches should yield some websites with information to help you see where I am coming from in this mod.

I should add that the nation is named for the Haida, but it contains atleast one element that is not Haida at all, and that is the Kachina.

The Kachina comes from Pueblo beliefs and I worked the idea into this mod because I don't think the Kachina is ever going to work its way into a Dominions mod any other way because I doubt anyone is going to do a Pueblo mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Thanks for the great feedback, I hope the links and terms to search for yield some good results if you are interested in learning more about the Haida or any of the First tribes.

[HoneyBadger]

I'll definitely check out the sites.

I don't know. Considering there are hundreds of different Kachina (I used to wear a silver Kachina emblem around my neck, until it was stolen), a Pueblo/Anasazi nation is certainly concievable. Could even include sacred coyotes in there.

For that matter, are coyotes indigenous to the Haida ancestral lands? I would-in my more or less ignorance on the subject-assume the wolf would be more totemnic. I'd like to see a sacred wolf in the game, anyway-just the standard wolf, only sacred class.

A suggestion for a sacred but recruitable water creature would be the Pike. Tough and dangerous for river fish, and they can get quite large-but not so large as to be overwhelming or unbalancing. Maybe the sacred pike even goes berserk?

I imagine the snapping turtle is part of their mythos too. Just a thought, but what if they had a summonable sacred version of the Asp-Turtle? Now that would be a powerful amphibious summons.

I summoned a bunch of frenzied Moksgmol and they tore apart a tribe of lion warriors. For a level 4 conjuration though, they should be sacred.

Suggestion: Combine the two, make them a level 2 summon, and just give Moksgmol berserk ability, and maybe code them so that if the trampling bear (no berserk) form "dies" it "transforms" into the Frenzied Moksgmol (berserk) form. This is kinda-sorta-maybe like what bears do in the wild-walk around on all fours until they're threatened or ticked off.

It'd be interesting to see a unit go from trampler to standard fighter, and I bet quite effective on the battlefield.

Ok, I'm gonna go read up on the subject...

[HoneyBadger]

Ok, it's really hard to track much down, but then the subject deserves a devotion of time that I don't currently have. I'll add to this as I find the time, but in the meantime,

Some additional thoughts:

I can't find any direct references to the snapping turtle in Haida culture so far, but I know it features in many Aboriginal American myths.

The mountain goat was a very important animal to the Haida, and maybe that would make a good additional recruitable sacred animal.

The salmon was also very important to the Haida as was the frog and the fox, and probably the porcupine.

The Haida carved and smoked pipes. The smoke and the pipes themselves, they believed, had supernatural power, connecting the Haida to their ancestors and aiding their ancestors to find their way in the Afterlife.

The Haida and the Tlinglit seem to have been the most closely related, but the How Raven Stole the Sun is a myth that occurs all throughout Canada and Alaska.

There is some evidence that the Haida had contact with China circa 1000 bce or more recently-including the use of similar armor by the Haida and the Chinese at this time.

The Haida used and traded copper, including copper shields-these shields may have been purely or primarily symbolic though, as signs of wealth and tools of barter.

You have shamanistic units, but no overall Haida Chieftain (perhaps "Tyee" means chief?). The Haida Chief used a symbolic carved raven rattle during ceremonies. The Haida Chief also owned and used the most copper items-possibly copper weapons and armor, had a distinctive cloak and head-dress, and would be another candidate for the sailing/banner abilities.

The Haida had secret societies whos members were supposedly possessed by spirits and then exorcised during their initiation. They learned of these secret societies from captured Kwakwaka'wakw, their neighbors to the south

A weapon used by the Haida during river and sea battles against others in canoes was a large carved stone ring attached to a woven rope that they would hurl against and into the other canoe.

Are you intending the Haida more to be representative of all Canadian tribes? or just specifically Haida? The first option provides more opportunities for "legitimate" modding and allows for the fact that the Haida were widespread traders.

[Foodstamp]

Tyee indeed means chief. I was hoping you would come across the canoe smasher! What a fantastic weapon.

It is also worth noting that the peoples of that region cut down massive redwoods and carved insane canoes out of those trees. It is speculated that they were able to sail all over the place in those canoes, as far away as Asia and as far north as the Artic circle.

I am not sure about you HoneyBadger, but I am immensely impressed with the tribes of that region. Once you read about what they accomplished before the Europeans came along, WOW, it is simply incredible. They were able warriors, great craftsmen, they had a complex culture and economy, and achieved many incredible things that have slipped into the realm of obscurity.

The Sgaana Tyee represents the banner/sailing chiefton role.

Originally this mod was supposed to represent all of the pacific northwest tribes, but I focused more on the Haida Gwaii overtime. I felt that since they had a natural barrier from the other tribes, that their culture would be just a small bit less generic to the other cultures in the area who were based in the mainland. That being said, you will find splashes of the other cultures mixed in. Some of the words used are even from Inuit and not specifically Haida language.

[HoneyBadger]

I am indeed impressed by them. I'm glad I've gotten to know the Haida a little bit better, thanks to your mod.

I don't think it would hurt the originality of your Haida mod to include some of the themes they would have most likely been familiar with, but didn't originate themselves.

I'm kind of surprised at the lack of a Sasquatch http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif He'd make a good stealthy summon, I think.

If you are going to do a specifically (or atleast regionally) Haida mod, and are concerned that the Pueblo people won't be represented, I'll be glad to help you create a Pueblo mod, and you can keep true to your vision.

[HoneyBadger]

Ok, I've actually got an idea for an SC Pretender for Haida (my personal favorite.) called the Moby.

I found a beautiful picture of a grey sperm whale, so I'm going to get you a picture of that, and I'll do all the work to get atleast the picture mod-ready.

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking a huge amount of hp (300 or more), good natural protection, size 6 trampler, a bite attack, massive str, good combat movement and 3 province move, poor def, poor perc, fair to decent MR, natural rejuvenation, 5% regeneration (maybe) and a cold aura-to represent a wake. 100% resistant to cold, 50% resistant to poison. Good supply bonus. No starting paths (alternately, 1 path water), 3 misc item slots, aquatic only (if possible, unable to ever leave the water, even wearing an amulet of the fish). 80 points to increase. Not too expensive, maybe even 0 points if it has no water path, since it's not too different from an Ancient Kraken, only with less ability to gain magical paths.

[PDF]

HoneyBadger said:
Ok, I've actually got an idea for an SC Pretender for Haida (my personal favorite.) called the Moby.

I found a beautiful picture of a grey sperm whale, so I'm going to get you a picture of that, and I'll do all the work to get atleast the picture mod-ready.

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking a huge amount of hp (300 or more), good natural protection, size 6 trampler, a bite attack, massive str, good combat movement and 3 province move, poor def, poor perc, fair to decent MR, natural rejuvenation, 5% regeneration (maybe) and a cold aura-to represent a wake. 100% resistant to cold, 50% resistant to poison. Good supply bonus. No starting paths (alternately, 1 path water), 3 misc item slots, aquatic only (if possible, unable to ever leave the water, even wearing an amulet of the fish). 80 points to increase. Not too expensive, maybe even 0 points if it has no water path, since it's not too different from an Ancient Kraken, only with less ability to gain magical paths.



It'll fit an aquatic nation, but Haida is a land nation and I can't imagine an "amphibious" whale http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[HoneyBadger]

Yes, but they also get most of their food from the ocean and it's technically an amphibious nation.

I don't think that every single Pretender has to share every single physical quality with it's worshippers, even considering Roleplaying, do you?

That would kind of preclude flying Pretenders worshipped by human nations. A whale Pretender is certainly something the Haida reasonably might worship, just as certain south-seas cultures worship a great shark, others equate the Devil with a giant manta-ray, quite a few cultures consider the salmon to be holy, and many, many cultures worship the alligator/crocodile.

Having a purely aquatic SC Pretender gives the Haida a strategic choice also, enabling them to expand underwater more easily, perhaps on the level of Agartha.

[HoneyBadger]

That and, as stated above, I really like SCs. There aren't enough true SCs in the game.

[Amhazair]

HoneyBadger said:
I don't think that every single Pretender has to share every single physical quality with it's worshippers, even considering Roleplaying, do you?




Absolutely not. What will happen however when someone selects this pretender, starts his game, and the huge whale ends up in a land province? (the nations capitol)

[HoneyBadger]

Good point, further consideration is obviously needed.

[HoneyBadger]

Is there any way to make a province that works as both Land and Water-basically an amphibious province? I could definitely see this as being the reasonable quality of a given province-type.

[Foodstamp]

How about a whale in a magical water sphere? At the very least it would be an interesting looking unit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[XiahouDun]

Like a hamster ball?

[Foodstamp]

Yup, a gi-normous hamster ball.

[HoneyBadger]

That's a possibility, and get rid of some misc slots, but I'm looking into the possibility of a province which would allow both land only and water only beings to travel across it. Then maybe a special map that uses such a province as Haida's starting province. How does that sound?

[HoneyBadger]

How about a gi-normous hamster god...er no, nevermind.

[XiahouDun]

How about a magic Killer Whale that loses its fins and gains short stubby legs on land, like the mer people of Oceana?

[Foodstamp]

XiahouDun said:
How about a magic Killer Whale that loses its fins and gains short stubby legs on land, like the mer people of Oceana?



That's probably the way it will be implemented if I include a 3rd pretender. A shapeshifting killer whale with a land form and a water form. Although the air whales in "The Maxx" were pretty wicked http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[danm]

A good (and thematic) solution for the whale Pretender is to set it up as a shapeshifter (like dragons) with a weak human form on land, and SC whale form in the water. The animal/people distinction is very blurry in Haida myths, and most animals show up in human form fairly regularly.

If you can force the transform based on location, it'd be cool -- if not, having the human form amphibious, and the whale water-only should work fine.

I'd also suggest using the Grey Whale, as that is more culturally appropriate (though a grey spermwhale definatly will LOOK more "SCish")

[HoneyBadger]

I considered other whales, including the grey whale and the Narwhal, but as the Moby might show up in other nations as a SC, I'd rather it be an "iconic" figure, which the distinctive spermwhale definitely is. Besides, I like the name "Moby" and it's nice to slip a Melville reference into Dom3.
I'll probably use your shapeshifter idea though, danm, thank you.

[danm]

If you end up calling him "Moby", then the human form has to be a geeky little bald vegetarian musician-type.

hehe

[HoneyBadger]

Actually, I'm thinking of calling him "Frog". In certain Aboriginal American legends, it was Frog who, at the behest of Raven, swam to the bottom of the ocean to recover land which Raven then put onto the back of a giant turtle to form the land portion of the World. I'm thinking that being able to transform into a spermwhale would be an appropriate and fitting reward, because ofcourse spermwhales are known for deep diving.

Frog would have three forms, the first would be a human shaman, the second would be a giant aquatic frog, and the third would be the Moby.

Speaking of Pretenders: is there any way we could get Raven to have an extra form or two? Since he's known for changing his shape, and I don't believe he currently has more than one form.

[Shovah32]

I think shapechanging is definitely the way to go with the moby. Even if haida started with a land+water province how would the aquatic whale move?

[Foodstamp]

What kind of form would you want for the Raven?

[HoneyBadger]

How about something similar to a Caelum Eagle King?

[HoneyBadger]

Ok, how about the alternate form of a stealthy human shaman with rejuvenation who's able to assassinate-that when hurt transforms into a part-raven "birdman" of approximately the same power level as a Caelum Eagle King?

Possibly the "Raven King" form would be immortal.

I kind of like the idea of Haida having Pretenders with several different forms, since that follows pretty well the abilities and legends of the various animal spirits and shamen from Aboriginal myth, and it also adds to their complexity and gives them something of a "theme".

What do you think?

[PDF]

HoneyBadger said:
That's a possibility, and get rid of some misc slots, but I'm looking into the possibility of a province which would allow both land only and water only beings to travel across it. Then maybe a special map that uses such a province as Haida's starting province. How does that sound?



I don't think it's possible, a province is either land or water.

[HoneyBadger]

It's not possible, as of now. I'm hoping someday it becomes possible, however.

[Foodstamp]

A progress update for the Haida Gwaii mod.

-All graphics have been changed to existing ingame graphics except for the Crest Pole Pretender, the nation flag and banner. This is to make it easier to incorporate Haida Gwaii into games with other modules without busting the 220 graphic cap.

-A new summon has been added to the Conjuration line for Haida Gwaii. It is called "Great Feast of the Forest"

-Haida Gwaii has access to the "Monster Toad" summon and the "Contact Couatl" summon. The latter would require a pretender geared towards casting the spell, an independent mage, or astral empowerment on a national mage.

-Coyote is sacred once again. Gold cost has been decreased on coyote as well.

-100% random a/w/n added to the "Voice of the Killer Whales" and the "Eagle Talon".

-Research bonus increased on "The Voice of the Killer Whales".

-Kachina has become more of an air spirit, complete with a lightning attack and etherealness. Kachina can now use the "Summon Allies" command to summon 1 thunderbird a turn.

-Thunderbirds received lightning attack

-Frenzied Moksgmol has been merged with the standard Moksgmol creating a more formidable sacred unit recruitable only at capital.

-Spell "Summon Frenzied Moksgmol" has been removed.

-Haida Gwaii commanders can wear shoes!

-Pretender "Crest Pole" path cost lowered to 40.

-Regular unit costs lowered.

-Mage costs increased.

-Non mage commander costs decreased.

-Toad Tribe Warrior added as a regular amphibious unit. (Similar stats to the indy version, with a Haida specific description)

-Toad Tribe Shaman added as a low level amphibious mage/ priest. (Similar to the indy version, but with 1 holy and updated description to fit Haida Gwaii theme).

-National Heroes updated to be a bit more interesting.

-Haida Gwaii can now choose from a wider variety of existing pretenders including the Colossal Head, The Lord of Rebirth, The Dagon, and the Lady of Springs, amongst others.

-Starting magic site changed to produce 2 air, 2 water and 2 nature gems.

---------------------------------------------------------

Left to do before next beta release...

-Add another recruitable unit or two.

-One more commander

-Aquatic summon.

-Testing of the Frenzied Moksgmol against heavy hitters of common EA bless strategy nations.

[Shovah32]

Sounds like this is coming along very nicely.

[DrPraetorious]

Foodstamp - the best bet, I think, would be to have a "suggested" in-game sprite associated with each unit, and then commented out (i.e. replace the # at the begining with a -).

That way, people can pick and choose which custom graphics to enable. It should be possible for each player to have custom graphics for *their* nation, if I handle the commenting properly, with a simple find-and-replace on the local version of the mod.

Of course, doing MP games with mods is a fair amount of logistical work anyway, so it may not be possible to get people to open their version of the mod locally and swap graphics on and off.

The pixel art you've done so far looks quite nice and I certainly don't want you not to use it just to save me coding hassle.

[BandarLover]

Foodstamp- this mod sounds amazing and now I wish I had been around the forums to sign up for your beta. I eagerly await the time when you finish so I can download this.

I'm equally impressed by the amount of research into this subject not only by you but by the other posters as well. This sounds like a real labor of love and judging by the few pics in this thread it looks very fun to play.

Damn, I I can't wait for you to release this thing already! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Foodstamp]

Update!

-King of the Forest summon added

-Frenzy of the Deep aquatic summon added

-A few stat adjustments on existing commanders

-Descriptions checked and revised.

[BandarLover]

But still no release? Awwwwwwww.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif

[Sombre]

Poor, poor Bandarlover -shakes head sadly-

You'll get a vaetiihiem/Avernum update in the next couple of days though. Something to tide you over until this gets released. I'm looking forward to this one myself.

[BandarLover]

True. I've never played the game that you said Avernum is based on but I like the way the nation plays. And 6 new national spells to look foward too? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif