whatis filler tech, exactly?

[dumbluck]

Is it included in the TDM? What does it do, abd why?

[jc173]

It's from God Emporer's research mod, it's just a junk tech to help the AI research better. The Tech Area Min Percent in the research queues apparently do not always work right so he added the filter tech so the AI now sets up the four techs its working on better. He can probably explain it better than I can but there was a thread on it awhile back, just look for Posts from him.

[dumbluck]

i tryed searching for "filler tech" but i couldn't find any refereces to it in the threads it brought up.

[Marty Ward]

Try searching for AI research. There is a long thread where the reason behind the filler tech is discussed, if you can just find it in the 22,000+ Posts http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[God Emperor]

dumbluck,
As has been touched on, I created the two Filler Tech's in order to shorten the number of techs that the AI has in its research queue, which is always four. There are %'s included to allow the queue to be shortened but these do not work currently (Aaron has said that he will work on it).

The importance of the queue length is that without the Filler Tech's, the AI's research is very unfocussed as it researches most of the Theoretical sciences very early on when it should be devoting more points to follow on tech's.

eg if the AI wanted to research Armour, point defence, shields and ship construction, its research queue would look something like;

Chemistry 50k
Military Science 50k
Physics 50k
Ship Construction ??k
Armour I
Point Defence I
Shields I
Ship Construction #
Armour II
Point Defence II
Shields II
etc

In this sequence, the AI has probably spent over 200k of research and not actually gotten any benefit.
When I research, after a theoretical science has been completed, I immediately research the follow on techs. The Filler techs help the AI to do the same.
With the Filler tech's, the queue could look something like this;

Chemistry 50k
Military Science 50k
Filler Tech 1
Filler Tech 2
Armour I
Point Defence I
Filler Tech 1
Filler Tech 2
Armour II
Point Defence II
Filler Tech 1
Filler Tech 2
Armour III
Point Defence III
Filler Tech 1
Filler Tech 2
Physics 50k
Ship Construction ??k
Shields I
etc

Under this scenario, the AI has put only 100k early on into the theoretical sciences with the next 100k going into useful stuff like armour and point defence - see the difference?

The Filler techs are not available with mod pack as they constitute a change (though minor) to the base files (only TechArea file is affected actually).
I have however posted a ResearchDesign mod for all of the races and a couple of others for the Klingons, Romulans, Shadows and Borg which make use of the Filler Techs.

Hope that helps, or is what you were after.
Regards,
GE

[dumbluck]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by God Emperor:
dumbluck,
As has been touched on, I created the two Filler Tech's in order to shorten the number of techs that the AI has in its research queue, which is always four. There are %'s included to allow the queue to be shortened but these do not work currently (Aaron has said that he will work on it).

The importance of the queue length is that without the Filler Tech's, the AI's research is very unfocussed as it researches most of the Theoretical sciences very early on when it should be devoting more points to follow on tech's.

eg if the AI wanted to research Armour, point defence, shields and ship construction, its research queue would look something like;

Chemistry 50k
Military Science 50k
Physics 50k
Ship Construction ??k
Armour I
Point Defence I
Shields I
Ship Construction #
Armour II
Point Defence II
Shields II
etc

In this sequence, the AI has probably spent over 200k of research and not actually gotten any benefit.
When I research, after a theoretical science has been completed, I immediately research the follow on techs. The Filler techs help the AI to do the same.
With the Filler tech's, the queue could look something like this;

Chemistry 50k
Military Science 50k
Filler Tech 1
Filler Tech 2
Armour I
Point Defence I
Filler Tech 1
Filler Tech 2
Armour II
Point Defence II
Filler Tech 1
Filler Tech 2
Armour III
Point Defence III
Filler Tech 1
Filler Tech 2
Physics 50k
Ship Construction ??k
Shields I
etc

Under this scenario, the AI has put only 100k early on into the theoretical sciences with the next 100k going into useful stuff like armour and point defence - see the difference?

The Filler techs are not available with mod pack as they constitute a change (though minor) to the base files (only TechArea file is affected actually).
I have however posted a ResearchDesign mod for all of the races and a couple of others for the Klingons, Romulans, Shadows and Borg which make use of the Filler Techs.

Hope that helps, or is what you were after.
Regards,
GE<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Honestly, I'm still confused. Wouldn't the research points spent on filler tech be better spent on actual research, or am I just totally missing the point here?

[Nitram Draw]

The filler tech are cheap, 2 points I think, so you don't waste very many points on them.

[dumbluck]

ok. now my head is really spinning!!! If the filler tech are really cheap, then they wouldn't do any good because they would only hold that place for one turn, right? then it would just go to the next project in the list!


oooooohhh, mommy, my head hurts!!! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

[God Emperor]

he he he.... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

dumbluck, Nitram has got it straight. The AI research queue will always have Filler Tech 1 and Filler Tech 2 in it, up to level 50. Once the AI achieves level 50 in Filler Tech 1 and Filler Tech 2, it drops back to having four regular projects in it.
Regards,
GE

[Suicide Junkie]

So, instead of the AI spending 25% of its research on each of 4 major projects, it spends (50%-2pts), on the first two projects, and 4 points on the filler techs each turn, right?

[God Emperor]

Basically that's right - although the cost of the Filler tech's does rise from the strting cost of 1pt - by level 38 for example, it costs 722 points.....Not sure what the Last level 50 costs, cant be much though....

[Nitram Draw]

I think that is the idea. It basically limits the AI to 2 useful projects that have all the points devoted to them.

[dumbluck]

I guess this brain of mine isn't big enough to wrap around this one. But i'll give it one more shot: i'll try the "example" approach.

in this example, the ai is trying to research armor, shields, PD, and missles.

here is the research queue:

Chemestry
missles
filler tech 1
FT 2
armor 1
Military science
FT 1
FT 2
armor 2
PD 1
FT1
FT2

etc
etc
etc

Ok Turn one, 1000 research points:
chem 0%, missles 0%, FT 1 0%, FT 2 0%

Turn 2: FT 1 and FT 2 completed
chem 2%, missles 2%, ...
error: can't research armor w/out first researching chemistry.

ooooooooooo, why is the ground moving under my feet?????

[Nitram Draw]

I think the way it works is that the filler techs are alway chosen if another tech needs to be researched. So in your example the two filler techs would continue to be the next two techs chosen until one of the other "useful" techs were researched. Then the two filler techs and another "useful" tech would be chosen.
I think you can waste points this way but it does let the AI always concentrate on two techs at once.
At least that's the way I think it works.

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Ok Turn one, 1000 research points:
chem 0%, missles 0%, FT 1 0%, FT 2 0%

Turn 2: FT 1 and FT 2 completed
chem 2%, missles 2%, ...
error: can't research armor w/out first researching chemistry.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm thinking that it would be:
here is the research queue:

Chemistry (upto 1)
missles (upto 2)
filler tech 1 (upto 50)
FT 2 (upto 50)
armor 1 (upto 1)
Military science (upto 1)
FT 1 (upto 50)
FT 2 (upto 50)

So instead, it would go
Turn one, 1000 research points:
chem 0%, missles 0%, FT 1 lvl1 0%, FT 2 lvl1 0%

Turn 2: FT 1 and FT 2 completed
chem 2%, missles 2%, FT 1 lvl2 0%, FT 2 lvl2 0%
No error.

[God Emperor]

The AI does not divide research points - it applies them to the first item in the queue and then the next and then the next etc...

So in the example provided;

Chemistry I
Missile II
Filler Tech 1 I
Filler Tech 2 I
Armour I
Missile III

Missile II will not get started until the full 50k of research has occurred on Chemistry, likewise, Filler Tech 1 cannot be started until 30k of research has occurred on Missiles.

eg Once Chemistry I is researched, the AI's research queue will look like this;

Missile II (x pts researched)
Filler Tech 1 I (0 points researched)
Filler Tech 2 I (0 points researched)
Armour I (0 points researched)

Given that Filler Tech 1 I and Filler Tech 2 I only cost 1pt each to research, it is likely that they will be completed in the same turn as Missile II is achieved (unless there are no research points flowing over after Missile II is achieved - ie if you are researching 3000 pts a turn and Missile II requires 2998 pts, then the remaing 2 pts left over will of course be enough to complete both of the Filler Techs as well).

eg the AI's queue will then look like this;

Armour I (x pts researched)
Missile III (0 points researched)
Filler Tech 1 II (0 points researched)
Filler Tech 2 II (0 points researched)


Regards,
GE

[Instar]

Someone should go back through all of the Posts and find all the good ones on modding adn compile them... be a good resource

[dumbluck]

***blush***

ok. that makes sense. i don't know why it didn't before.

***blush***

so, ummm, how would I add this mod into my mods? It sounds like it would help the ai out quite a bit. I currently only have TDM and Q's phong and CuaCappa.


***blush***

[This message has been edited by dumbluck (edited 26 May 2001).]

[capnq]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Someone should go back through all of the Posts and find all the good ones on modding adn compile them... be a good resource<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dubious has started on this; check out the SE4 Modders Guide in the Mods forum.

------------------
Cap'n Q


The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft

[jc173]

It's not too hard, I added GE's (GE we bring good things to life? LOL sorry I don't know why I thought of that) research mod over the TDM modpack and modded most of the TDM AI's to use it. If you're using the standard techs just copy GE's techarea file over your old one. If you're using a modified tech file just copy the two filler techs and add them in. Other than that you need to add in these lines to the AI research files

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Filler Tech 1
Tech Area Level := 50
Tech Area Min Percent := 100

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Filler Tech 2
Tech Area Level := 50
Tech Area Min Percent := 100

Personally I added them in as the 5th and 6th entries, because I use the starting resource setting of 100k that way the AI doesn't lose a lot of points. If you use a lower setting you'll probably want them as the third and fourth entries? Anyhow I'd suggest you download GE's mod and take a look at how he set up the AI files. That is if he doesn't mind us doing that?

PS GE did you ever play Traveller?

[God Emperor]

JC173,
Traveller - the role playing game? Played a little, many moons ago (17 years ago?), but, have only played D@D since.
Regards,
GE

[jc173]

Ah ok I was just wondering cause in Traveler the New Era there was a dictator in one of the scenarios who declared himself the God Emporer of some planet.

[God Emperor]

Alias actually comes from Frank Herbert's Dune (book5 I think). The God Emperor was supposed to be immortal and invulnerable but he was found to have one weakness......

[dumbluck]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jc173:
... Other than that you need to add in these lines to the AI research files

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Filler Tech 1
Tech Area Level := 50
Tech Area Min Percent := 100

AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Tech Area Name := Filler Tech 2
Tech Area Level := 50
Tech Area Min Percent := 100

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm, GE set the tech area level @ 500,not 50. That way the ai researches all 500 levels of FT, not just the first 50.

Also, according to his readme.txt, the techarea.txt that he included has a mod to the PD cannons as well, so I just cut and pasted the FT sections into mine.

But thanks for the tips. Even if they were slightly off, they pointed me down the right path to take.

[jc173]

Whoops sorry about that I forgot about the PD mod. I'm not sure about the 50/500 deal I know the max level is 500 in the tech file, but setting it to 500 means it will research the filler techs for 500 turns/50 years. Hope it works out.

[God Emperor]

Hmmm, thought I'd set it to 50, but, 500 shouldnt cause any grief - game should end before 500 is reached. Am in the middle of a long game so I'll keep an eye on it - may drop it back to 100 or something...

[capnq]

1. Dune
2. Dune Messiah
3. Children of Dune
4. God Emperor of Dune
5. Heretics of Dune
6. Chapter House Dune

GEoD was probably my favorite book of the series. I have a boxed set of the first four in paperback around here somewhere.

------------------
Cap'n Q


The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft

[jc173]

Well the concern I have for researching filler techs for 500 turns is that unless the AI is getting really hammered or has very few research facilities by about 10-15 years (yes I play some really long games) they'll be pumping out enough research that using to slots each turn for the filler techs means that they'll losing several thousands if not tens of thousands of research points. Maybe it's not as big a concern for most people as I think it is since I tend to play in large galaxy where each system has more planet and larger planets than in the standard Version of the game.

[dumbluck]

jc173
Well, you could always change it so that one of the filler techs has 500 lvls and the other has only 100 or so. That way, the AI will stop researching one of the filler techs when it has lots of research points.

GE
I play in large galaxies with lots of opponents. If I notice any problems with the 500 settings, I'll let you know. In fact, I'll probably do what I said above and set one of the filler techs to 100 or so...

[God Emperor]

Look forward to your assessment.
Regards,
GE

[Marty Ward]

The filler techs add a lot to the game. The AI definately researches better with them.
I don't think the AI will lose many research points unless you modify the total amount of research the race will build to. Most races are limited to the 100k-300k range. By turn 100 or so all desired research items will probably cost about 100-200k each so they don't get hurt by the filler techs. If you have changed the AI to have 500k-1M research then you may run into problems.

[DirectorTsaarx]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by capnq:
1. Dune
2. Dune Messiah
3. Children of Dune
4. God Emperor of Dune
5. Heretics of Dune
6. Chapter House Dune

GEoD was probably my favorite book of the series. I have a boxed set of the first four in paperback around here somewhere.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Frank Herbert's son has started a new trilogy, set as a prequel to the original Dune. First book is out, called "Dune:House Atreides". Second book will be called "House Harkonnen". The first book dealt with Leto becoming Duke, Shaddam becoming emperor, and the Harkonnens start mining spice on Arrakis/Dune...

[capnq]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Frank Herbert's son has started a new trilogy, set as a prequel to the original Dune. First book is out, called "Dune:House Atreides". Second book will be called "House Harkonnen".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>House Harkonnen is already out; I have copies of both but haven't read them yet. The authors of the new trilogy are Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson.

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

[SunDevil]

God Emperor,

Good Job.