TDM-Modpack politics in really big game

In my really big game it is now turn 10. I have met the Rage and they immediately turned Murderous declaring war. Is that normal ?

The Cue Cappa accepted my gift of resources 4000/3000/3000 with trade treaty then cancelled two turns later. Maybe it is because I planted a colony on a sphere world in one of their home systems. I am not claiming systems as I colonize so the attack location thing should not be the problem, or is it ?

At turn 10 I have a trade treaty with Krill, Narn, Sergetti, Toron, UkraTal, and Xichung. Contact but no treaty with Cue Cappa (see above), Drushocka, and Sallegra and of course the Rage. So @10 I have met half the races, about what I expected.

I am #14 of 20 with 18 systems 28 colonies. Next up is Sergetti at 5/18 unless one of the no treaties has more.... The Xichung have 48 ships ! I am colonizing only sphere worlds and each colony gets a space yard station to build mines at 3/turn (six when I get yard III). I will move my population using light cruisers which also have three mine launch bays in case they meet an enemy. I can build one every two turns and not significantly reduce my 4000m populaion per homeworld, then scrap at the destination rather than returning home. This way I populate worlds and stop wasting my high reprodution rate....

[Marty Ward]

There seem to be some races that are pissed off as soon as they meet you. I think the Rage is one of them. I have never had a game where they were friendly, cool is the best I've seen I think.

[Alpha Kodiak]

So, you met the "You breathe? We will fix that NOW." Rage Collective. About the only time they will be friendly is if they are already in at least one, and more likely, two wars. The Rage were created as a weapon system by some long dead race. They seem to have gotten a little out of control, and are now trying to rid the galaxy of all intelligent (or not so intelligent) life.

[Phoenix-D]

You should check, because think you automaticlly claim systems that you colonize. Also, your nearby colonies are considered attack locations.. even if you are an ally at the time. (*cough* backstab *cough*)

Phoenix-D

[capnq]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> You should check, because think you automaticlly claim systems that you colonize.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There's a toggle for this in Empire Options; the default setting is claim them.

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft

[jc173]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LCC:
In my really big game it is now turn 10. I have met the Rage and they immediately turned Murderous declaring war. Is that normal ?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, unless you are a much more powerful empire when you meet them, the Rage pretty much automatically declare war. They're a pretty psychotic race. Kind of like Skynet leading the Berserkers.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
The Cue Cappa accepted my gift of resources 4000/3000/3000 with trade treaty then cancelled two turns later. Maybe it is because I planted a colony on a sphere world in one of their home systems. I am not claiming systems as I colonize so the attack location thing should not be the problem, or is it ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not sure, I think the AI will that a threat anyhow. At least I've seen them attack my colonies like that previously, even though the system itself wasn't contested on the border display map.

[Atraikius]

Your problem with the CueCappa may have been from the Last two line of the politics file, where it tells the AI the limits for it to continue trading with you. I f they also had their anger towards you increase, it may have been boosted by the ;get made over allied colonizable planets' setting.

In my really big game it is turn 20. Politics are as follows. Initial score/rank in parenthesis, then current score/rank, then current number tech levels, then current systems/planets, then units/ships/bases, then wars-w/no treaty-n/treaty-t, then my relation with the race. I am at war with Drushocka, Rage, and Sallegra by their choice. I still have no treaty with the Cue Cappa, but they never declared war - cautious I guess. I am behind schedule on race contact, slowed by the war effort. My ships are light cruisers except three colony. The LC are population transports with three mine launch bays (330 pop/ 6 small mines) except a half dozen retrofitted to missile (!) ships to defend the Central system. I do not have shield tech so cannot afford beam fights. My trade treaties give me very good dividends, well worth the effort. With my mines being swept at four planets, I have switched production to small mines with only one 300 kt warhead, which is 2/3 the cost in minerals and 1/2 the cost in radioactives of a two warhead mine. About half my planets have a base space yard in orbit on repeat build of mines. I am at 500k minerals throwing away 40k per turn due to lack of storage for a total loss since start of game of about 1000k minerals, which breaks my heart but the AI do no better. I am half full on organics at +20k. I am quarter full on radioactives at +5k. I just built my first intelligence center at a sphereworld. It took me this long to plant, build a yard, and build a base yard plus some mines and misc facilities. I have planted only Rock/None and am defending Central and the ten nexus sphere worlds. I have moved over 1000k population to all of them. Except for Ike the original home planets are still nearly full on population, cranking out a transport LC every two turns. The Ike nexus homeworlds have just now switched to building base space yards every 3-4 turns, with space yard 3. The next step is to have the nexus worlds colonize their 3-6 secondary sphereworlds. Once those are secure I can start thinking about the 900 large planets... I have planted then abandoned eight ruins worlds searching for useful tech starting two turns ago. The Sergetti have not gone Mega Evil Empire since I set the level to 5000k rather than 500k. It seemed ridiculous to me to see anybody going MEE before turn 70.

Sergetti ------- (213.6/16) 513.9/01 - 58 - 05/25 - 0082/57/11 - 2w/1n/1t - TR Warm
Clays(me) --- (213.0/18) 462.8/02 - 58 - 20/30 - 1426/40/18 - 3w/1n/9t - myself
Krill ------------ (220.1/11) 450.9/03 - 41 - 03/19 - 0069/52/00 - 1w/1n/5t - TR Cool
Pyrochette -- (287.6/01) 444.5/04 - 62 - 05/20 - 0406/28/05 - 1w/0n/1t - not met
Rage ---------- (261.7/03) 431.3/05 - 53 - 09/24 - 0394/41/03 - 2w/2n/4t - War Displeased
Cryslonite --- (218.9/12) 420.9/06 - 49 - 06/20 - 0246/41/02 - 1w/1n/1t - not met
Sallegra ------ (220.2/10) 420.7/07 - 51 - 05/28 - 0177/29/06 - 1w/0n/7t - War Murderous
Amonkrie ---- (235.5/05) 397.7/08 - 50 - 03/42 - 0337/17/00 - no contacts with any - colonizing
Drushocka -- (213.9/15) 381.4/09 - 46 - 06/25 - 0098/28/03 - 1w/0n/4t - War Angry
Abbidon ------ (217.2/13) 380.4/10 - 38 - 04/33 - 0168/29/01 - 0w/1n/0t - not met
Toron ---------- (278.8/02) 369.5/11 - 62 - 06/18 - 0901/18/02 - 1w/0n/5t - MA Brotherly
Eee ------------ (223.9/08) 365.2/12 - 35 - 08/33 - 0248/15/00 - no contacts with any - colonizing
Narn ----------- (257.6/04) 359.1/13 - 49 - 10/14 - 0296/25/02 - 1w/3n/3t - TR Amiable
Toltayan ----- (213.1/07) 351.7/14 - 40 - 05/18 - 0243/30/00 - 2w/1n/0t - meet on his turn
Cue Cappa -- (211.7/20) 346.3/15 - 42 - 06/19 - 0106/23/03 - 0w/5n/5t - none Warm
Xi Chung ----- (212.1/19) 345.9/16 - 39 - 06/15 - 1168/47/04 - 2w/0n/3t - T Murderous
Piundan ------ (226.8/07) 324.0/17 - 49 - 06/17 - 0992/28/01 - 1w/0n/1t - MA Warm
Phong --------- (228.3/06) 296.1/18 - 41 - 04/17 - 0063/21/00 - 1w/0n/1t - TR Receptive
Colonials ---- (220.5/09) 277.7/19 - 50 - 05/13 - 1424/17/01 - 1w/1n/2t - MA Receptive
Ukra Tal ----- (216.0/14) 201.3/20 - 37 - 04/12 - 0058/15/00 - 2w/1n/4t - TR Brotherly

Notice that those races not at war are actively colonizing and will eventually surpass all others (except hopefully me). Most of the Sergetti and Krill score is in those ships, so they are not the threat they seem. Perhaps the AI would be better off doing at least a modest amount of colonization even during war time. The Colonials, Piundan, Toron, and Xichung in particular would have been better off colonizing than building that huge stockpile of fighters. With three wars to fight losing mines (launched mines not in my score) and population to shift I have not done any colonizing myself in a long time, but that will soon change....

The Ukra Tal are caught between the Rage and the Krill. They have lost three homeworlds. I guess they are gonna die....

I am about to lose my treaty with Xichung. I am stalling off his break treaty by giving a resources gift (which he refuses) to keep him from initiating a message on his own. Definitely a stop gap measure till my colony gets defended since he just keeps getting more angry.... I expect a problem with the Krill soon. I will not make that mistake again.

In my really big game it is turn 30. I am posting a Winzip zip file with the start and turn 30 in Scenario/Mod Archive Space Empires IV Maps and Scenarios. Politics are as follows - initial score/ rank in parenthesis, then turn 20 score/ rank in parenthesis, then current score/ rank, then current number tech levels, then current systems/ planets/ colony ships with turn 20 systems/ planets in parenthesis, then units/ ships/ bases, then wars-w/ no treaty-n/ treaty-t, then my relation with the race. I am at war with the Cue Cappa, Drushocka, Rage, and Sallegra by their choice. Once a race goes to war with me my policy is to never offer peace. I am almost done with race contact, with two tanker ships on the way to home systems of Eee and Abbidon. I just made contact with the Amonkrie Last turn (refused gift treaty), and the Krill just broke treaty. The Xichung are likely to break any time now. My ships are a mix of light cruisers and cruisers except three colony. My trade treaties give me very good dividends, well worth the effort. See production and trade analysis below. I am producing small mines with only one 300 kt warhead, which is 2/3 the cost in minerals and 1/2 the cost in radioactives of a two warhead mine, due to active minesweeping. I am mining the ten warp points of Central with 100 mines each on both sides. I also am mining warp points near the borders of my original home systems. Most of my planets have two base space yards in orbit on repeat build of mines (some have more - see Ike) for a total of 480 mines per turn. I have started doing storage facilities for minerals and organics. I am nearly full on minerals at +6k. I am full up 500k on organics at +36k. I am half full on radioactives at +6k. I stopped building intelligence centers because nobody else was doing it yet. I have not built any research centers and do not plan to until I must, because my trade treaties are letting me research faster than anybody else already. Why improve the trade partners research ?

Notice the Abbidon, Eee and Piundan have improved seven ranks due to industrial development, while the Krill have fallen six. Stalled races with less than about 50 points gain are the Krill, Sallegra, Cue Cappa (low colonization, war with me) and the Toron, Narn (low colonization, building fighters).

Clays(me) ----- (213.0/18) (462.8/02) 773.5/01 - 80 - 22/35/03 (20/30) - 3957/75/48 - 4w/2n/11t - myself
Sergetti -------- (213.6/16) (513.9/01) 753.0/02 - 68 - 05/34/01 (05/25) - 0204/88/15 - 2w/3n/03t - TR Warm
Abbidon ------- (217.2/13) (380.4/10) 614.9/03 - 46 - 04/39/02 (04/33) - 0235/66/06 - 0w/1n/00t - not met
Rage ----------- (261.7/03) (431.3/05) 588.2/04 - 61 - 09/31/01 (09/24) - 0922/63/04 - 2w/1n/06t - War Mod
Eee ------------- (223.9/08) (365.2/12) 578.2/05 - 44 - 11/48/03 (08/33) - 0433/30/00 - 0w/1n/02t - not met
Pyrochette --- (287.6/01) (444.5/04) 554.1/06 - 66 - 05/29/00 (05/20) - 0762/31/06 - 1w/1n/04t - TR Receptive
Cryslonite ---- (218.9/12) (420.9/06) 547.8/07 - 62 - 06/26/03 (06/20) - 0275/58/02 - 1w/0n/04t - TA Warm
Amonkrie ----- (235.5/05) (397.7/08) 520.7/08 - 62 - 08/68/12 (03/42) - 0594/28/00 - 0w/2n/00t - none Mod
Krill ------------- (220.1/11) (450.9/03) 494.6/09 - 50 - 03/20/01 (03/19) - 0077/60/00 - 2w/2n/08t - none Mur
Piundan ------- (226.8/07) (324.0/17) 493.1/10 - 60 - 06/22/02 (06/17) - 1196/57/02 - 1w/2n/04t - MA Receptive
Drushocka --- (213.9/15) (381.4/09) 483.7/11 - 54 - 06/28/01 (06/25) - 0172/40/03 - 1w/0n/07t - War Displeased
Sallegra ------- (220.2/10) (420.7/07) 468.0/12 - 57 - 05/32/00 (05/28) - 0230/34/06 - 1w/1n/07t - War Mur
Toltayan ------ (213.1/07) (351.7/14) 446.1/13 - 45 - 05/20/01 (05/18) - 0248/49/00 - 2w/0n/03t - TR Botherly
Xi Chung ----- (212.1/19) (345.9/16) 420.3/14 - 51 - 06/17/02 (06/15) - 2148/56/06 - 2w/4n/03t - TR Murderous
Toron ---------- (278.8/02) (369.5/11) 412.1/15 - 68 - 06/21/00 (06/18) - 1074/17/02 - 1w/2n/10t - P Brotherly
Narn ----------- (257.6/04) (359.1/13) 410.5/16 - 57 - 11/18/00 (10/14) - 1128/33/02 - 2w/1n/05t - TR Brotherly
Cue Cappa -- (211.7/20) (346.3/15) 391.7/17 - 50 - 06/21/00 (06/19) - 0165/27/02 - 1w/0n/09t - War Angry
Phong --------- (228.3/06) (296.1/18) 362.4/18 - 46 - 04/19/00 (04/17) - 0074/29/00 - 1w/0n/06t - MA Brotherly
Colonials ----- (220.5/09) (277.7/19) 336.7/19 - 71 - 06/17/00 (05/13) - 1662/23/01 - 2w/0n/03t - P Brotherly
Ukra Tal ------ (216.0/14) (201.3/20) 278.9/20 - 45 - 05/14/01 (04/12) - 0058/26/00 - 2w/3n/07t - TR Brotherly

Except for the Sergetti, Eee, Pyrochette, and Amonkrie colonizing is less than one per two turns. I changed my own plans because I want at least 100 mines delivered at plant to each new colony so that it is secure. I could not do that at the rate planned. I currently have scheduled colonization of 9 sphere worlds, mostly in the territory of allies who plant rock colonies. I am very surprised by the failure of the AI to colonize them, particularly in home systems. The 50 sphere worlds were created as a magnet to suck population off of homeworlds so that by capturing a single planet I could get population to colonize other atmospheres. As of turn 30 the planting status is one each by six (Drushocka, Toron, Pyrochette, Rage, Piundan, Narn), but none by seven (Krill, Sallegra, Toltayan, Xi Chung, Cue Cappa, Phong, Colonials). The fighter races continue to stockpile them, even though many worlds are full up and getting no storage available. I also noticed that some have space yard ships attempting to move which are producing a ship. Also some are attempting to load cargo into full ships. The Pyrochette recently have been repeatedly trying to do illegal refits. Though mine sweepers are active the AI continues to demolish its ships and fleets against known mine fields. I am sticking to mines and missile ships heavily armed with PD since the Rage have PPB V and the Krill have large fleets of torpedo launchers. I tried out the massive shield depleter but it is one shot and usually misses. It is not worth giving up two missile slots. I will be building medium weapon platforms with PSG V, PD V, missiles V, and a PPB V heavy mount when I get the tech. I can build one per three turns on a base yard, or I can build 30 mines. Until the AI sweeps a field of 100 I will stick to mines plus one missile ship to kill the mine sweepers...

You might be interested in a production and trade analysis, ranked by total minerals. First is the current rank by total score, then number trade partners, then values (in thousands). Order is minerals, organics, radioactives with each giving production/ trade/ total/ current balance rate/ stockpile. Last is research giving production and total with trade included. Notice that a half dozen are building lots of research centers, which is smart. The Abbidon and Sergetti are refining while the Eee are refining like crazy for some reason (racial bonus aside). I am the only one not running a good surplus in minerals, because I built bases. My radioactives are going into mines, while the Rage are eating theirs building ships with PPB. The Xichung are running low on organics for their weapons. The AI should have built bases or colonies to use its surplus, in particular notice the Toron and Pyrochette building maintenance free fighters. Neither has any carriers so I suppose they are for defending the building planet. The Ukra Tal are doing well considering they lost three home worlds. They may survive now that the Krill hate me more.

Clays(me) --- 01 - 11 - 122/246/368/+005/649 - 14/27/42/+34/500 - 014/41/056/+05/227 - 053/172
Toron ---------- 15 - 10 - 178/150/327/+255/500 - 20/15/35/+32/500 - 027/20/047/+39/530 - 101/124
Cue Cappa -- 17 - 09 - 122/155/278/+219/500 - 15/18/33/+31/500 - 018/23/042/+36/520 - 087/111
Sallegra ------ 12 - 07 - 145/131/276/+190/620 - 31/13/45/+44/540 - 021/18/039/+25/268 - 101/134
Pyrochette -- 06 - 04 - 241/030/271/+176/500 - 16/03/19/+18/451 - 032/04/036/+20/530 - 090/090
Krill ------------ 09 - 08 - 142/122/265/+138/540 - 05/13/28/+26/500 - 019/16/036/+20/504 - 077/108
Sergetti ------ 02 - 03 - 222/036/259/+119/740 - 17/04/21/+19/500 - 055/04/060/+40/590 - 083/090
Amonkrie --- 08 - 00 - 248/000/248/+185/820 - 24/00/24/+20/505 - 031/00/031/+25/456 - 109/109
Drushocka - 11 - 07 - 173/071/245/+153/620 - 16/10/26/+24/500 - 020/11/032/+24/498 - 097/121
Rage --------- 04 - 06 - 187/050/237/+105/768 - 12/06/19/+16/460 - 026/07/031/+05/290 - 095/095
Piundan ----- 10 - 04 - 190/034/224/+121/660 - 17/04/21/+18/500 - 019/05/024/+11/577 - 056/063
Narn ---------- 16 - 05 - 156/066/223/+144/500 - 15/07/22/+21/500 - 025/08/034/+29/500 - 081/099
Ukra Tal ----- 20 - 07 - 088/126/219/+178/500 - 16/15/32/+26/359 - 011/17/028/+25/500 - 051/106
Eee ----------- 05 - 02 - 184/006/190/+108/720 - 22/01/22/+79/487 - 100/01/101/+91/620 - 107/107
Cryslonite -- 07 - 04 - 140/049/189/+057/520 - 24/06/31/+26/520 - 025/06/031/+13/429 - 093/101
Phong --------18 - 06 - 137/052/189/+123/520 - 14/06/21/+20/500 - 017/07/025/+18/383 - 073/082
Colonials --- 19 - 03 - 141/045/186/+126/540 - 15/07/22/+21/500 - 022/07/030/+12/500 - 055/077
Xi Chung --- 14 - 03 - 102/063/165/+069/500 - 19/09/28/+10/124 - 016/09/025/+18/500 - 052/078
Toltayan --- 13 - 03 - 125/026/151/+049/500 - 16/02/19/+17/500 - 031/03/034/+19/520 - 071/074
Abbidon --- 03 - 00 - 146/000/146/+031/680 - 30/00/30/+27/540 - 045/00/045/+34/560 - 106/106


[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 25 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 25 May 2001).]

The size of this file is 14kb but zipped only 6kb. I made it using AOL which looked flakey in wordpad so I will not make that mistake again....

The file contains questions about the AI politics and a proposed strategy for colonizing all 7000 planets, with end game targeted about turn 250. Expected score exceeds 25 million and racial experience increases by over 700000.

If you were one of the TDM-Modpack racial designers, or have experience with the AI politics files, then I would appreciate some answers either in the forum or by email to LCClay1@aol.com

I notice suicide_junkie has some Posts as big as my file, so I am pasting the source of the previous post zip file into this post so it can be read without aol.

I am at turn 31 and have reviewed my plans for colonizing sphereworlds. I have 35 colonies now (20 sphereworlds). I have plans for 16 colonizing fleets (carrying 1000 population and 100 mines each) to depart within the next 10 turns. That takes me up to 51 colonies, which is considerably more than all but the Sergetti (48). Now that would be nice but there is a catch. In my experience the AI break treaty commenting on your taking too many planets at about colony 43-47. So I can get away with this burst of colonization, but with no trade treaties I will be hard pressed to continue my expansion to the remaining 210+ systems. I have questions.

1) Does the TDM-Modpack AI break treaty based on your total number colonies, or colonies in systems he claims, or on your colonies he has actually seen, or on some other basis ? I already know about the per attack location and per ally ship things, but is there any other factor I am missing ? Below is a racial anger summary percent allied/ per attack location. Following each race is regular decrease and minimum anger then relation. Last comes estimated number of colonies that will be ok. Is that minimum anger forever, or just when you first meet ? If I can believe this then I should make peace with the Rage until I go MEE now that he is over his initial reaction !! If the regular decrease is 2 and the race gets mad at 20 % and per attack is 2, then with over five colonies seen you lose ground every turn. Is that right ? If so then as the AI explores and sees more of my colonies, they will get angry very soon....

0/2 Eee -4/0 not met - any
0/2 Phong -4/0 brotherly MA 15 - any
0/2 Toltayan -4/0 brotherly TR 9 - any
0/3 Rage -2/30 moderate war - make peace ? - any

10/2 Cue Cappa -4/0 angry war - make peace ? - 20
10/2 Ukra Tal -4/0 brotherly TR 20 - 20
10/2 Colonials -3/0 brotherly P 16 - 15
10/2 Piundan -2/20 receptive MA 15 - 10

20/2 Narn -3/0 brotherly TR 20 - 7
20/2 Toron -3/0 brotherly P 20 - 7
20/2 Sallegra -3/0 murderous war - make peace ? - 7
20/2 Amonkrie -2/30 moderate TA 0 just did - 5

30/2 Abbidon -3/0 not met - 5
30/2 Drushocka -3/0 displeased war - 5
30/2 Cryslonite -2/20 warm TA 7 - 3
30/2 Sergetti -2/30 warm TR 20 - 3

35/5 Pyrochette -3/0 receptive TR 7 hmmm...... - 1
40/2 Krill -2/20 murderous just broke treaty but not war yet - 2
40/5 Xichung -1/20 Murderous (break soon ?) TR 20 - half a colony ?
The Xichung will hate anybody they trade with ! Is that right ? It seems they are as confused as the Rage! There must be some other factor operating besides regular decrease, otherwise they would have broken treaty long ago!

Ship Anger is also interesting. Nobody cares about ships except as noted below. Values are per no treaty/ per ally/ per enemy ship
Love allied fleets! Narn 1/-1/1 Toron 1/-1/1
Do not get mad at enemies! Amonkrie 2/0/0 Cryslonite 1/0/0 Krill 1/0/0
Ally ships ok Colonials 1/0/1 Piundan 1/0/1 Rage 3/0/2 Sergetti 2/0/1 Xichung 3/0/4
Mad at any ships Pyrochette 2/1/3

If I can believe that, then my relations with the Krill will be better if I declare war ! And is it my total ships known by treaty (impossible!), ships seen (not likely), or just those in systems claimed by the AI ? In any case it looks like I have a problem with the Pyrochette. I do not want to change any of the settings, but would appreciate any insights offered by the race creaters.

2) I plan on building battle cruiser (BC) yard ships with master computer, six engines, solar sail, quantum reactor, cloak - basics plus yard III and the remainder 500 cargo, which can carry a medium WP and build base yards for a new colony. It will be accompanied on initial entry into each system by three dreadnought attack ships (sweep 4x5, 7 PD, 2 WMG heavy mount) to kill mine sweepers. Next in the fleet is two BC mine sweepers with the basics plus ten mine sweep V for a total of sweep 100. The mine sweepers each carry cargo 1750. Next in the fleet is a minelayer BC with the basics plus 13 mine layers and two cargo to 1280. It is needed in case the enemy has sensors to see past the cloaking. Last is a light cruiser (LC) population transport with basics plus four mine layers and six cargo to 1740 to shift population and mines to secondary planets once the primary planet is planted. Now they go into an enemy system and park over an unused large planet near the center of the system. The yard builds a single engine colony ship in two turns, which plants. The next turn a cargo facility III is built, the minesweepers and LC transport drop 425 population (pop) and 350 mines (launch ten) into the planet and the yard drops the weapons platform. Then the minesweepers and mine layer return to a sphereworld system for more pop and mines. The planet and yard follow the schedule below while the LC is mothballed till colonies start planting (or it could mine enemy yard planets). The schedule is for a new system to plant a colony every turn with 100 mines and at least 14 pop. For this you need one base yard to build the colony, and five yards to build mines taking into account attrition from enemy attacks. You also need at least three yards to build attack ships or weapons platforms. Legend : CF3 - cargo facility III, UPC - urban pacification center III, SY3 - space yard facility III, BY - base space yard, NOT - not built yet, MIN - mines, LCT - LC transport, ATT - attack ships or weapon platforms, COL - colony ship, and time moves left to right.

prime col ------ CF3 UPC UPC SY3 SY3 SY3 SY3 SY3 BY4 BY4 BY4 BY9 BY9 BY9 facilities
Yard Ship ----- BY1 BY1 BY1 BY1 BY2 BY2 BY2 BY2 BY5 BY5 BY5 BY5 - return to sphere world
BY1 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT BY3 BY3 BY3 BY3 BY6 BY6 BY6 BY6 LCT LCT LCT ATT forever
BY2 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT BY7 BY7 BY7 BY7 LCT LCT LCT ATT forever
BY3 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT BY8 BY8 BY8 BY8 LCT LCT LCT ATT forever
BY4 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT MIN forever
BY5 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT MIN forever
BY6 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT MIN forever
BY7 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT MIN forever
BY8 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT MIN forever
BY9 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT COL forever

secondary ----- SY3 SY3 SY3 SY3 SY3 BY1 BY1 BY1 BY2 BY2 BY2 BY4 BY4 BY4 BY8 BY8 BY8 CF3
BY1 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT BY3 BY3 BY3 BY3 BY6 BY6 BY6 BY6 ATT forever
BY2 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT BY5 BY5 BY5 BY5 LCT LCT LCT ATT
BY3 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT BY7 BY7 BY7 BY7 ATT forever
BY4 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT BY9 BY9 BY9 BY9 MIN
BY5 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT MIN forever
BY6 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT MIN forever
BY7 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT MIN
BY8 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT MIN
BY9 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT COL

Primary planet plants colony on turns 17 - 19* - 20 - 21* - 23 - 23* - 25* - 26 - 29 - 32 - 35 - 38 - 41 - 44 - 47
50 - 53 - 56 - 59 the * is by the colony not the base yard.
build if 18+ First secondary domed starts in 17 + 18 = 35 plants in - 38 - 41 - 44 - 47 - 50 - 53 - 56 - 59
build if 30+ Third secondary domed starts in 20 + 18 = 38 plants in - 41 - 44 - 47 - 50 - 53 - 56 - 59

If more attack ships are not needed then about three weapon platforms per colony can be built by the base yards during colonization. If the yard ship is not needed at the sphereworld, it can speed things up at the secondary colonies by helping to build bases. Two secondary are enough since the average is 28 planets per system. If the system is secure you can just have all planets do colony ships and skip the mines and weapon platforms. You now have 27 yards in system - an average of one per planet. While this has been going on the other colonies in system have been building facilities. The primary planet does turn 15-17 resupply for a total of four facilities, which is a large domed. It then switches to four colony ships to do the best planets in the system, using the stockpile of mines. Then it does attack ships, and later (when more mines build up) does colony ships or troops. The second secondary does a cargo facility turn 20 then a space port on turns 21-23, after which everything is TBD. Generally speaking every colony gets a yard facility and every domed also gets a cargo facility. This leaves two productive facilities per planet, about breakeven if minerals extraction. So while it would be very nice if the colony is not domed, it is not necessary. A typical large 120 minerals not domed will be 30k and domed are 3k each. The average will be 4.5 non domed per system and about 24 domed. So by about turn 65 after initial entry into system production can be 165k minerals. Since 28 worlds all running consume only 84k this leaves 81k excess - enough to pay maintenance on 12 dreadnoughts. The yards scrap to make fleet slots available unless really needed to build weapons platforms or troops. Until yards are scrapped there will not be slots for roving fleets since 255 x 27 = 6885 which is greater than the 5000 upper limit. The average number systems to plant per sphereworld is precisely six (five if I do them all). So if only two colonizing fleets are built per sphereworld the first two systems will be about 40 turns old when the fleets arrive at the fifth and sixth systems. The first two systems get 27 yards or less, 3-4 get 18 or less, and 5-6 get 9. Obviously you plant the systems with the most planets first. So the total will be less than 4500 yards at the peak. The system fleets consume about 254 x 7 slots and the colonizing fleets another 70 x 8 so only 2500 or so slots are available for yards. I would have to look at the planets summary, but I doubt that more than 60 have over 30 planets. Assume that 120 have 18 to 30. That makes a total of 550 original yards plus 1620 plus 2160 plus 350 = 4680. Hmmm.... I am definitely going to have to skip the yards in any system which can be secured by guarding the warp points.... Hopefully that will be at least half of them after I land troops in the initial invasion.

To support 70 fleets of eight capital ships requires maintenance of about 40k x 70 = 2800k minerals. I plan on an average of three yards per regular world and 14 per sphere world. So running most yards and colonies is another 1200k or so. I plan on 300k research, 700k intelligence, 2500k minerals, 200k organics, 800k radioactives, and 500k ship score to just under the MEE limit I set of 5000k. I scaled the limit by a factor of ten since the map has over ten times the normal planet capacity. I will mothball yards as I approach 5000k then unmothball them all to build fleets on the same turn, jumping my score by 3000k. Hopefully I will get tech early so that I can build the 70 fleets before I have to start mothballing. If so I will mothball as built to keep my score and maintenance low. My sphereworld production bonus should be or exceed 40 % by then and I will immediately build system robotoid factories. That gets me to 3250k/ 260k/ 1040k in just a few turns. So it will be (turn 31 now + 16 to plant + 7 UPC-SY facility + 9 yards + 9 tech + 21 int + (14+18) min + (6+5) rad + 3 org + 19 store) turn 158 before I can afford the fleet blitz (38 turns later than my usual 120). The sphereworld colony builds three yards and they each build three or four more. My plan is to store 15 million minerals and five million each organics/ radioactives to take care of the huge blitz deficit, building storage rather than facilities whenever I am within three turns of capacity. As my yards ramp up I will be building minerals and radioactives extraction to breakeven. Then I will do tech, then intelligence, then resume resource extraction. At blitz I will be deficit 1500k for 5t then 750k when the robotoids build, with 7500k remaining. The sphereworlds build minerals for twenty turns to reach breakeven (taking into account new colonies). The yards will have built about 12000 medium weapon platforms - an average of two per colony to be planted, but moving them from the sphereworlds will be a huge logistics problem (a trip each for 210 cargo 17250 base ships). I could build three times as many but even the sphere worlds cannot hold that much unless I take the time to build cargo facilities ! Alternatively I can split my cargo space to have 21000 x 20 cargo troops and send two troop transports with 150 large troops each with each fleet rather than building troops in new systems. The game should be over with all planets colonized by turn 250 if it does not break from range check error. I am definitely not going to scroll through 7000 colonies doing adjustments every turn ! Instead I will look at the ship list for what 254 colony ships have built and setup a full queue as I plant each colony. Also I will need base ships to shift captured population to the correct atmospheres if the game Lasts that long. Some of the AI are bound to surrender at blitz, usually three or four. What do I get out of this game ? I increase my racial score by 700k - a factor of four. It will interesting to see how the AI in the next game react to that experience level. My game score will be over 25 million - beat that !

Now my question is this. Have any of you done this kind of exponential growth scenario before rather than glassing the AI worlds ? If so, is my strategy on target, and can you suggest improvements ?


PS - I estimate 500 hours (2 months) to play this, so it is not recommended if you have other things to do !



[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 27 May 2001).]

Same as Last posting except I noticed something. Most of the AI see me as brotherly, but the ones with *** at the end of the line see me as Moderate. Now what file and item determines that ?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LCC:


0/2 Eee -4/0 not met - any
0/2 Phong -4/0 brotherly MA 15 - any
0/2 Toltayan -4/0 brotherly TR 9 - any ***
0/3 Rage -2/30 moderate war - make peace ? - any ***

10/2 Cue Cappa -4/0 angry war - make peace ? - 20
10/2 Ukra Tal -4/0 brotherly TR 20 - 20 ***
10/2 Colonials -3/0 brotherly P 16 - 15
10/2 Piundan -2/20 receptive MA 15 - 10

20/2 Narn -3/0 brotherly TR 20 - 7
20/2 Toron -3/0 brotherly P 20 - 7 ***
20/2 Sallegra -3/0 murderous war - make peace ? - 7 ***
20/2 Amonkrie -2/30 moderate TA 0 just did - 5

30/2 Abbidon -3/0 not met - 5
30/2 Drushocka -3/0 displeased war - 5
30/2 Cryslonite -2/20 warm TA 7 - 3
30/2 Sergetti -2/30 warm TR 20 - 3 ***

35/5 Pyrochette -3/0 receptive TR 7 hmmm...... - 1
40/2 Krill -2/20 murderous just broke treaty but not war yet - 2
40/5 Xichung -1/20 Murderous (break soon ?) TR 20 - half a colony ? ***

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also I am using Version 1.72 TDM-Modpack and release 1.35. Are they compatible ? There is something seriously wrong about my treaty with the Xichung. According to the politics file, the highest treaty they are allowed is non-aggression. So how come I have a TR with them ? Is it because I added them as a player then put them on full ai on and controlled by computer ? I got the treaty by giving a gift of 4000/3000/3000 resources with the treaty as part of the package.

[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 27 May 2001).]

[God Emperor]

LCC,
With respect to maximum treaty level, noticed the same myself in my latest game. The Shadows are limited in their txt file to Military Alliance but have gone into Partnership with the Abbidon.
Something doesnt appear to be operating correctly.....

[Daynarr]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LCC:
Same as Last posting except I noticed something. Most of the AI see me as brotherly, but the ones with *** at the end of the line see me as Moderate. Now what file and item determines that ?

Also I am using Version 1.72 TDM-Modpack and release 1.35. Are they compatible ? There is something seriously wrong about my treaty with the Xichung. According to the politics file, the highest treaty they are allowed is non-aggression. So how come I have a TR with them ? Is it because I added them as a player then put them on full ai on and controlled by computer ? I got the treaty by giving a gift of 4000/3000/3000 resources with the treaty as part of the package.

[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 27 May 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I did make Xi'Chung use only Non-Aggression treaty. In my games they (and Sergetti) never had any treaties higher then they should. I am always adding races as AI player not human (it is important, read on).

There is a bug in the game I have noticed; when you add an empire with human control and then change it to AI control (and turn on all the ministers) the game will not use all of the files for that race, but will use default ones instead. The file I am 100% sure that is not used by such empires is Race_Settings.txt. I wasn't sure if there was any other that the game doesn't use on such empires so I didn't reported the problem. Judging from your findings Race_AI_Politics.txt is not used as well, but Race_AI_Anger is. It would be a good idea to send a mail to MM with explanation of the problem (and possibly a save game) so that Aaron can fix it. I would do it myself, but I simply don't have time.

[This message has been edited by Daynarr (edited 27 May 2001).]

I just spent four hours reading all the Posts I could find using search on politics etc. My personal level in politics has gone from nonexistant to savvy. I am going to play this game over again from start and see if I can avoid those unnecessary wars. I will post again when I reach turn 30 and compare the original to the revised game.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daynarr:

It would be a good idea to send a mail to MM with explanation of the problem (and possibly a save game) so that Aaron can fix it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks I will.

[Q]

Thank you Daynarr. You just explained the odd behaviour I saw with the Borg race. They should only accept trade and research treaties, but when I monitored them (switched to human player and full AI on) they accepted even partnership. Because they have the logical bloodthirsty happiness type suddenly almost all planets where rioting without prior warning: they were angry about the treaties!
IMO the lack of the warning is another bug we should report to MM or what do you think?

In my really big game it is once again turn 20. Politics are as follows. Initial score/ rank in parenthesis, then current score/ rank (former rank), then current number tech levels, then current systems/ planets/ colony ships, then units/ ships/ bases, then wars-w/ no treaty-n/ treaty-t, then my relation with the race. I am at war with the Cue Cappa and Rage by their choice. I made treaties with the Drushocka and Sallegra and they broke them, but they have not declared war - cautious I guess. The Amonkrie (t17) and Pyrochette (t18) refused treaties. I have not met the Abbidon and Eee but should by turn 30. My homeworld planets all have three base space yards in orbit - one builds more yards while the other two are on repeat build of single warhead small mines. I have space yards 3 so production is faster. I am at 444k minerals defict 17k per turn. My minerals loss due to lack of storage since start of game is half that of my first try since I built yards earlier. I have only 61k organics at +11k because I swapped 200k to the Ukra Tal (organic techs) for 200k radioactives. I have 360k radioactives at deficit 4k. I have planted only the Central Rock/None and strategic sphereworlds. I did a careful evaluation of where I really wanted to plant and organized my colonization plan accordingly. So I deferred the nearest (nexus) planets except Central for my first two waves of colony ships. I am defending Central and nine of the ten nexus sphere worlds. I will get Nizzarum soon - delayed by Sallegra minesweeping and shortage of mines. I sent colony ships into AI home systems accompanied by a transport converted to minelaying carrying 42 mines in the minelayer plus 15 in the colony ship with only four population. I have three colonies in the Rage territory. It will be interesting to see if they can survive cut off from easy reinforcement. Low investment at high risk for very high return. The Last of 39 colonies plants in three turns - 17+ turns sooner than I would have planted in my first slapdash attempt. Except for Ike the original home planets are full on population, about to crank out a transport Battle Cruiser (BC) every 2-3 turns. The Ike nexus homeworlds have just now switched to building missile BC every 3 turns. I have planted then abandoned six ruins worlds searching for useful tech starting four turns ago. Notice that I have swapped ship building for base building. My "fleet" consists of four colony ships, five small transports, and nine small transports converted to minelaying. The new BC transports have range 100 with return option from three supply storage. They will defend themselves by launching up to ten small mines per turn using five minelayer two. They carry 3700 cargo - 500 population with 120 mines or more pop if less mines are available. Rather than refit they may return if I cannot move pop fast enough. At 3400+ 33% per turn I grow 336 every three turns but only move out about 500-600 so it will take a LONG time to shift my population unless transports return. I will send two to each of the colonies, starting with those furthest away. When all colonies have 1000, the leftovers will be split amoung the ten nexus systems for my second stage colonization. When I have learned ship construction 9 then I can build minelaying yard 3 base ships. They will park over unused sphereworlds carrying a cargo of 100 pop plus remainder mines. They will build a colony ship then base yards untill all have at least three base yards. Then on the same turn I will plant them all and see what happens. Until then I will limit myself to 39 colonies, which I know from experience is generally safe. Over forty colonies causes wars to break out even when not MEE. I have been number one since turn 12, and just fell to two this turn because I took time off to upgrade my homeworlds to yard 3.

Sergetti ------ (213.6/16) 494.0/01(01) - 59 - 05/23/3 - 0038/56/07 - 2w/0n/02t - TA Moderate
Clays(me) ---- (213.0/18) 462.8/02(02) - 58 - 20/30/? - 1426/40/18 - 3w/1n/09t - myself - 1st try
Clays(me) ---- (213.0/18) 472.2/02(02) - 59 - 28/36/4 - 1726/18/39 - 2w/4n/11t - myself - current
Toltayan ----- (213.1/07) 449.9/03(14) - 44 - 05/21/1 - 0184/49/00 - 2w/0n/01t - TA Warm
Pyrochette --- (287.6/01) 432.4/04(04) - 60 - 05/21/3 - 0365/25/05 - 1w/2n/00t - none - Murderous
Drushocka ---- (213.9/15) 430.8/05(09) - 47 - 06/32/0 - 0193/38/00 - 0w/5n/00t - none - Moderate
Abbidon ------ (217.2/13) 418.2/06(10) - 38 - 04/32/3 - 0198/34/00 - 0w/1n/00t - not met
Rage --------- (261.7/03) 408.4/07(05) - 52 - 09/22/2 - 0505/41/03 - 2w/2n/02t - War Murderous
Cryslonite ---- (218.9/12) 390.3/08(06) - 51 - 06/20/1 - 0192/30/02 - 1w/1n/02t - TR Warm
Narn --------- (257.6/04) 387.0/09(13) - 50 - 11/14/2 - 0292/30/02 - 1w/2n/03t - TR Warm
Amonkrie ----- (235.5/05) 386.6/10(08) - 53 - 03/44/2 - 0494/22/00 - 0w/2n/00t - none - Moderate
Cue Cappa --- (211.7/20) 381.9/11(15) - 42 - 06/21/1 - 0116/33/03 - 2w/0n/10t - War Angry
Krill ---------- (220.1/11) 375.5/12(03) - 41 - 04/18/1 - 0069/41/00 - 1w/0n/05t - TR Moderate
Toron -------- (278.8/02) 366.9/13(11) - 61 - 06/16/2 - 0662/23/02 - 2w/3n/06t - TA Receptive
Sallegra ------ (220.2/10) 348.3/14(07) - 51 - 05/27/1 - 0355/20/03 - 1w/6n/02t - none - Cool
Eee ---------- (223.9/08) 346.3/15(12) - 35 - 09/34/4 - 0246/10/00 - 0w/1n/00t - not met
Phong -------- (228.3/06) 333.2/16(18) - 43 - 04/16/2 - 0114/22/00 - 1w/1n/1t - TA Moderate
Xi Chung ----- (212.1/19) 332.5/17(16) - 39 - 06/16/1 - 1187/41/03 - 2w/0n/3t - TA Murderous
Piundan ------ (226.8/07) 328.1/18(17) - 49 - 06/15/3 - 1053/30/01 - 1w/0n/2t - TR Warm
Colonials ----- (220.5/09) 264.5/19(19) - 52 - 05/14/0 - 1379/13/01 - 1w/2n/2t - TA Warm
Ukra Tal ----- (216.0/14) 232.9/20(20) - 39 - 06/15/0 - 0065/16/00 - 2w/2n/3t - MA Brotherly

I am about to trade colonization tech for other techs to everybody and see what I can get. Researching by myself takes too long, and the trade with the Ukra Tal shows how highly they are valued. I swapped Gas Colony and PD 5 for Ice colony with a MA. Since the AI is ignoring the worlds they can already colonize and breathe, then I doubt that any great increase in their colonization rate will occur....
The following races swapped ships for units, lowering their score/rank - Sallegra (+178/-9/-3)
The following races swapped units for ships - raising their score/rank - Narn (-4/+5), Toltayan (-59,+19),
Other races increased both ships and units, raising their rank - Drushocka (+95/+10/-3), Abbidon (+30/+5/-1), Cue Cappa (+10/+10)
The Krill are starting to lose ground in their war against the Ukra Tal due to my trade of PD (lost 11 ships), but they have glassed two Ukra Tal homes already. But that is better for the Ukra than before when they lost three....
The Cryslonite have lost more (54 units and 11 ships) in their war against the Toltayan. See Toltayan above.
Basically unchanged - Sergetti, Pyrochette, Rage, Amonkrie, Toron, Eee, Xichung, Piundan, Colonials.
So far as colonization goes, I have six more than before, the Drushocka have seven more, and everybody else is within three of same. I should not have made peace with the buggers after they broke treaty the first time. Oh well, it was worth a try. I thought some of those wars were unnecessary, but it looks like I was wrong.
P.S. Was it worth nine days ? I think so! It knocks at least 30 turns off my estimated blitz date....
P.P.S. Also see postings "Colony in enemy territory" "Basic Stategy" (18 May), and "really big games".



[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 01 June 2001).]

In my really big game it is again turn 30. I am posting a Winzip zip file with turn 30 in Scenario/Mod Archive Space Empires IV Maps and Scenarios. Politics are as follows - original turn 30 score/ rank in parenthesis, then revised turn 20 score/ rank in parenthesis, then current score/ rank, then current number tech levels, then current systems/ planets/ colony ships with revised turn 20 systems/ planets/ colony ships in parenthesis, then units/ ships/ bases, then wars-w/ no treaty-n/ treaty-t, then my relation with the race. I am at war with the Cue Cappa and Rage by their choice. Once a race goes to war with me my policy is to never offer peace. I have completed race contact with Eee and Abbidon on turn 29. The Krill and Xichung are likely to break any time now. I am stalling them and the (new treaty turned Murderous) Abbidon off by offering a trade of organics for minerals every turn. Sometimes they accept, but in any case it keeps their politics manager too busy to do a break treaty. My ships are 14 old small transports with all but 5 fitted as minelayers, with the remainder battle cruisers, mostly fitted as transports. My trade treaties give me very good dividends, well worth the effort. See production and trade analysis below. This time around I only built small mines with one 300 kt warhead, which is 2/3 the cost in minerals and 1/2 the cost in radioactives of a two warhead mine, due to active (as expected) minesweeping. Three such mines take out a light cruiser, and a base yard 3 builds ten per turn. I am mining the ten warp points of Central with 100 mines each on both sides. I also will be mining warp points near the borders of my original home systems. My home planets have four base space yards in orbit on repeat build of mines or more yards. All colonies get four base yards, with the fourth building more yards. I may do fighters as a stopgap until I get shield tech 10 to do weapon platforms. I am building intelligence centers already - not going to get caught short. I have not built any research centers and do not plan to until I must, because my trade treaties are letting me research faster than anybody else already. Why improve the trade partners research ?

Clays(me) ----- (773/01) (472/02) 845/01- 116 - 30/39/00 (28/36/4) - 6891/39/73 - 2w/3n/14t - myself
Sergetti -------- (753/02) (494/01) 719/02 - 067 - 05/34/01 (05/23/3) - 0146/72/15 - 2w/5n/04t - TR Warm
Abbidon ------- (614/03) (418/06) 636/03 - 046 - 04/40/00 (04/32/3) - 0238/74/00 - 1w/1n/01t - TA Mod
Amonkrie ----- (520/08) (386/10) 616/04 - 061 - 03/50/02 (03/44/2) - 0527/52/09 - 0w/2n/01t - TA Warm
Eee ------------- (578/05) (346/15) 595/05 - 044 - 11/44/13 (09/34/4) - 0397/40/00 - 0w/1n/03t - none Mod
Toltayan ------ (446/13) (449/03) 587/06 - 055 - 05/27/00 (05/21/1) - 0228/68/00 - 2w/2n/02t - MA Bro
Cryslonite ---- (547/07) (390/08) 533/07 - 062 - 06/25/01 (06/20/1) - 0214/59/03 - 1w/0n/04t - TR Rec
Krill ------------- (494/09) (375/12) 517/08 - 049 - 04/20/00 (04/18/1) - 0079/70/00 - 1w/2n/10t - MA Angry
Drushocka --- (483/11) (430/05) 488/09 - 054 - 06/36/00 (06/32/0) - 0219/45/00 - 1w/3n/08t - none Rec
Pyrochette --- (554/06) (432/04) 479/10 - 065 - 05/29/00 (05/21/3) - 1011/14/06 - 2w/1n/02t - TA Cool
Piundan ------- (493/10) (328/18) 453/11 - 060 - 06/21/02 (06/15/3) - 1401/51/02 - 1w/3n/06t - TR Rec
Rage ----------- (588/04) (408/07) 453/12 - 060 - 09/27/02 (09/22/2) - 1202/50/03 - 2w/1n/04t - War Murd
Xi Chung ----- (420/14) (332/17) 439/13 - 050 - 07/21/00 (06/16/1) - 1996/53/06 - 2w/6n/04t - TR Murd
Sallegra ------- (468/12) (348/14) 428/14 - 058 - 05/31/00 (05/27/1) - 0387/21/03 - 1w/2n/06t - none Warm
Narn ----------- (410/16) (387/09) 422/15 - 057 - 11/18/00 (11/14/2) - 0953/34/02 - 2w/4n/03t - TR Bro
Toron ---------- (412/15) (366/13) 410/16 - 069 - 06/19/00 (06/16/2) - 1275/20/02 - 2w/1n/11t - MA Bro
Cue Cappa -- (391/17) (381/11) 399/17 - 050 - 06/25/02 (06/21/1) - 0156/30/03 - 3w/1n/09t - War Mod
Colonials ----- (336/19) (264/19) 384/18 - 064 - 06/16/01 (05/14/0) - 1644/42/01 - 2w/3n/06t - TR Bro
Phong --------- (362/18) (333/16) 378/19 - 048 - 05/18/00 (04/16/2) - 0097/40/00 - 1w/2n/04t - TR Bro
Ukra Tal ------ (278/20) (232/20) 243/20 - 047 - 05/16/00 (06/15/0) - 0067/17/00 - 2w/3n/06t - MA Bro

Except for the Sergetti and Eee colonizing is less than one per two turns. I have all I want for now. When I get more tech then I will risk colonizing the remaining sphereworlds. I have much more tech this time due to researching all the cheap weapons. I also got some good expensive tech when the AI requested MA. At rank #1 and brotherly, try this trick. Respond to the treaty proposal with an offer to trade MA for tech and select every tech you have not finished researching. I have recieved a bunch of tech twice that way! This second time around the Toltayan are doing much better, while the Rage are doing much worse. I planted three more sphereworlds in Rage territory this time, including a Rage home system - Fun. It has them really upset and baffled. Their minesweeper is a joke - armed with PPB and only sweeps four. Notice that the original bottom six are still the bottom six. The top three are still tops. So losers lose and winners win, no surprise. The Ukra lost three homes to the Krill, and the Phong lost one to the Xichung. Even though the Ukra have PD tech, they are not putting it on their ships to fight the torpedo Krill - dumb. When the Krill and Xichung go to war with me, it should ease the pressure on those two. In the meantime, let them suffer.

You might be interested in a production and trade analysis, ranked by total minerals. First is the original rank at turn 30/ current rank, then current rank by total score, then number trade partners, then values (in thousands). Order is minerals, organics, radioactives with each giving production/ trade/ total/ current balance rate/ stockpile. I left the total off organics and radioactives to shorten the line. Last is research giving production and total with trade included. Notice that the top seven are still top, and the bottom six are stll bottom except the Colonials moved up and the Rage moved down. Once again, winners win and losers lose. I am keeping my surplus low by building bases as fast as I increase production. If I overshoot, I can always mothball the least useful. I want 14 base yards above every colony to build fleets. The Xichung are running low on organics for their weapons. The Rage are running low on radioactives for theirs. Both should have planted a colony to produce more, but they are too busy building warships - the disadvantage of being xenocidal maniacs.

Clays(me) --- 01/01 - 01/14 - 158/253/412/+025/341 - 15/35/+43/330 - 17/46/+07/350 - 055/176
Toron ---------- 02/02 - 16/11 - 182/159/342/+271/500 - 19/19/+34/500 - 22/23/+24/520 - 103/128
Cue Cappa -- 03/03 - 17/09 - 137/189/322/+267/580 - 15/25/+39/500 - 21/32/+45/520 - 093/108
Krill ------------ 06/04 - 08/10 - 134/152/288/+139/540 - 14/17/+26/500 - 17/22/+21/507 - 062/071
Sallegra ------ 04/05 - 14/06 - 182/086/249/+186/620 - 33/10/+43/540 - 28/18/+35/337 - 101/105
Pyrochette -- 05/06 - 10/02 - 230/010/240/+186/500 - 16/01/+08/439 - 41/01/+21/500 - 092/092
Sergetti ------ 07/07 - 02/04 - 179/050/229/+123/540 - 46/05/+50/560 - 80/06/+77/600 - 088/095
Narn ---------- 12/08 - 15/03 - 159/065/225/+173/500 - 15/06/+19/500 - 22/08/+23/500 - 096/101
Piundan ----- 11/09 - 11/06 - 178/044/223/+124/680 - 17/04/+19/500 - 19/05/+16/389 - 056/072
Drushocka - 09/10 - 09/08 - 156/054/210/+115/580 - 20/07/+25/540 - 31/12/+33/600 - 098/098
Eee ----------- 14/11 - 05/03 - 183/020/203/+115/740 - 21/03/+19/492 - 95/04/+87/620 - 102/102
Colonials --- 17/12 - 18/06 - 141/059/201/+125/540 - 15/07/+20/500 - 20/08/+12/490 - 055/062
Ukra Tal ---- 13/13 - 20/06 - 086/111/197/+155/500 - 18/13/+15/520 - 13/15/+24/340 - 050/100
Amonkrie --- 08/14 - 04/01 - 191/000/191/+076/830 - 23/00/+19/561 - 33/00/+24/540 - 108/108
Cryslonite -- 15/15 - 07/04 - 133/052/185/+071/530 - 22/06/+24/530 - 24/06/+17/492 - 096/102
Toltayan ---- 19/16 - 06/02 - 156/025/181/+043/560 - 17/02/+16/500 - 34/02/+20/486 - 106/114
Xi Chung --- 18/17 - 13/04 - 115/063/178/+071/500 - 21/07/+06/126 - 15/09/+19/485 - 051/059
Rage -------- 10/18 - 12/04 - 148/029/177/+064/500 - 12/03/+12/451 - 17/04/+06/231 - 076/077
Abbidon ---- 20/19 - 03/01 - 151/002/153/+029/660 - 29/00/+26/560 - 52/00/+36/600 - 104/104
Phong -------16/20 - 19/04 - 113/034/148/+052/500 - 13/04/+16/500 - 23/05/+18/481 - 061/066

Was it worth the 10 days it took me to play the first 30 turns over ? YES!!

P.S. These tables line up ok if printed. Do a quote, edit select all, ctrl C, paste into a temp file, and print the temp file if you want it to line up.


[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 04 June 2001).]

[Alpha Kodiak]

Question on the Rage: are they still building colonizers at a decent pace? They should always have some colonizers either being built or in transit.

I've also noticed that they trend toward being short on radioactives. Originally they had problems with minerals, so I increased their bias towards mineral production. I think I need to tweak the balance very slightly. I think it is much closer than it had been.

I am currently testing a new Version of the Rage that is a little more efficient about expansion, and avoids a couple of circumstances that would cause overbuilding of defense ships, as well as certain units.

Keep posting your findings. They are helpful in balancing some of the trickier settings, especially on resource production.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LCC:

Except for the Sergetti and Eee colonizing is less than one per two turns.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was half asleep. That should be per turn, not per two turns. The Rage do indeed have a couple colony ships at all times, and average a colony per two turns. They have added 17 colonies in 30 turns. So in the long run they will NOT be a joke - turn 120 = 70+ col. However, notice the Eee added 34 and have 13 on the way - definitely not a joke. I have added 29 (x10 sphereworlds except one) in the first 23 turns and built a LOT of yards. See my posting on geometic growth below. I hope to grab the other spheres sometime in the next 30 turns but will need to distribute pop and build fleets first. All my current spheres should begin resource production by about turn 40 to finance the fleets. Until then I will be hard pressed to finance yards.

In my really big game it is now turn 45. I am posting a Winzip zip file with turn 45 in Scenario/Mod Archive Space Empires IV Maps and Scenarios. Politics are as follows - turn 20 score/ rank/ percent increase in score per turn 20-30, then turn 30 score/ rank/ percent increase in score per turn 30-45, then current score/ rank, then current/turn 30 number tech levels, then current systems/ planets/ colony ships with turn 30 systems/ planets/ colony ships in parenthesis, then units/ ships/ bases, then wars-w/ no treaty-n/ treaty-t, then my relation with the race. I am at war with the Cue Cappa and Rage by their choice. Although the Cue Cappa are Brotherly, they still refuse my peace offers. I have not tried the Rage. Notice that the winners are still winning and the losers losing. The Krill sent their big fleets from Red into Central and beyond exploring. This has given the Ukra Tal some chances to win, keeping the Krill score down. Since I made peace with the Sallegra they have not lost ships to my minefields, bringing their score up.

Clays(me) ----- (472/02/6)(845/01/7)24xx/01-191/116-30/39/2(30/39/00)-17230/072/288-2w/0n/17t-myself
Sergetti -------- (494/01/4)(719/02/3)11xx/02-085/067-05/49/3(05/34/01)-00988/104/020-2w/3n/07t-TR Warm
Eee ------------- (346/15/5)(595/05/3)0980/03-060/044-14/76/3(11/44/13)-00683/044/000-1w/1n/04t-TR Bro
Amonkrie ----- (386/10/5)(616/04/3)0945/04-073/061-07/63/3(03/50/02)-00628/102/012-0w/4n/01t-TA Murd
Abbidon ------- (418/06/4)(636/03/2)0866/05-060/046-07/49/3(04/40/00)-00612/118/000-1w/0n/02t-TA Murd
Cryslonite ---- (390/08/3)(533/07/3)0823/06-068/062-06/34/4(06/25/01)-00295/100/002-1w/1n/10t-MA Rec

Toltayan ------ (449/03/3)(587/06/2)0733/07-075/055-05/39/0(05/27/00)-00338/073/000-2w/1n/10t-P Bro
Drushocka --- (430/05/1)(488/09/3)0731/08-062/054-06/52/5(06/36/00)-00302/071/006-3w/2n/11t-TA Murd
Pyrochette --- (432/04/1)(479/10/3)0729/09-079/065-05/46/0(05/29/00)-01259/029/009-1w/0n/04t-TR Ami
Sallegra ------- (348/14/2)(428/14/3)0718/10-070/058-06/36/2(05/31/00)-00493/068/004-2w/4n/11t-TA Murd
Piundan ------- (328/18/3)(453/11/3)0709/11-076/060-06/30/0(06/21/02)-01832/085/002-2w/0n/11t-MA Rec

Krill ------------- (375/12/3)(517/08/1)0639/12-061/049-05/23/2(04/20/00)-00081/085/000-2w/0n/15t-MA Murd
Rage ----------- (408/07/1)(453/12/2)0611/13-071/060-09/39/2(09/27/02)-01296/066/007-2w/2n/05t-War Murd
Xi Chung ------ (332/17/3)(439/13/2)0597/14-065/050-08/22/2(07/21/00)-01918/089/000-2w/0n/12t-TR Murd
Toron ----------- (366/13/1)(410/16/2)0559/15-086/069-06/24/0(06/19/00)-01394/038/003-2w/1n/14t-P Bro
Narn ------------ (387/09/1)(422/15/1)0517/16-075/057-10/20/0(11/18/00)-01341/045/002-2w/0n/11t-P Bro
Colonials ----- (264/19/4)(384/18/2)0491/17-081/064-06/25/1(06/16/01)-01907/044/002-2w/1n/14t-TR Bro
Cue Cappa -- (381/11/0)(399/17/1)0480/18-066/050-06/32/1(06/25/02)-00299/039/003-2w/1n/10t-War *Bro*

Phong --------- (333/16/1)(378/19/0)0359/19-060/048-05/20/2(05/18/00)-00120/029/000-1w/0n/11t-P Bro
Ukra Tal ------ (232/20/0)(243/20/1)0301/20-065/047-06/17/2(05/16/00)-00109/027/000-2w/3n/12t-P Mod

Net change ships/bases :
&lt;=10 Eee +4/0 Toltayan +5/0 Cue Cappa +9/0 Colonials +2/+1 Phong -11/0 Ukra Tal +10/0
&lt;=20 Krill +15/0 Pyrochette +15/+3 Rage +16/+4 Narn +11/0 Toron +18/+1
&lt;=30 Drushocka +26/+6
&lt;=40 Sergetti +32/+5 Piundan +34/0 Xi Chung +36/-6
more Clays +33/+215 Abbidon +44/0 Amonkrie +50/+3 Cryslonite +41/-1 Sallegra +47/+1

Net changes units :
&lt;=100 Xichung -78 Krill +2 Phong +23 Ukra Tal +42 Cryslonite +81 Drushocka +83 Rage +94
&lt;=150 Amonkrie +101 Toltayan +110 Sallegra +106 Toron +119 Cue Cappa +143
&lt;=300 Eee +286 Colonials +263 Pyrochette +248
&lt;=600 Abbidon +374 Piundan +431 Narn +388
more Sergetti +842 Clays +10339 - single warhead small mines except about 900 fighters

Colonizing :
&lt;= 5 Clays none, have all I can handle. Sallegra 5 Krill 3 Xichung 1 Toron 5 Narn 2 (net) Phong 2 Ukra 1
&lt;= 10 Abbidon 9 Cryslonite 9 Piundan 9 Colonials 9 Cue Cappa 7
&lt;= 15 Sergetti 15 Amonkrie 13 Toltayan 12 Rage 12
more Eee 32 ! (Ancient Race) Drushocka 16 Pyrochette 17
All empires see at least 400 colonize with breathe except :
Abbidon 22, Amonkrie 19, Cryslonites 74, Pyrochette 65, Rage 42, Sergetti 66, and Xichung 46

Techs - not really comparable since I have been trading techs every few turns to anybody I can get to trade. Load the posted savegame and notice the trades on this turn. Those AI rubes will give 200/200/200 in resources if they really want a tech or treaty! The trick is to figure out what they want. I am adding more storage for the loot starting now. First I wanted to get my own minerals production up so that I would be one of the best if not the best partner for every AI. All 28 of my sphereworlds are in production.

Treaties - you might be wondering how in the world I can maintain a Lasting relationship with a race who is Murderous ? It is simple. Every turn I keep the AI politics manager busy by doing a swap of organics for minerals as follows - Abbidon 20/17 Amonkrie 20/17 Drushocka 20/19 Krill 20/20 Sallegra 20/19. The Xi Chung will not trade and nothing I can do (such as demand tribute or even demand surrender) gets them to break treaty. I do not want to break it myself so I guess I am stuck with them. They parked fighters in my home system Ike on the Up warp point! I never saw THAT before - it annoys me. Next thing you know they will plant a colony in Ike, which they claim in spite of it being my home system.

Wars - a galaxy in flames!
Abbidon vs Narn (Psychic vs Religious) has dropped the pace of Abbidon expansion northwards dramatically, but they are moving east from their far SW corner towards the Cue Cappa. I expect that will open up a third front in the Cue Cappa struggle (Psychic vs Psychic) since they both now claim Aqua and the CC are partners with Narn.
Amonkrie soon vs Colonials and Eee (no contact yet) as they push westwards out of their far SE corner.
Colonials vs Drushocka - explorers in conflict, territory does not overlap.
Col vs Toron - as usual caused by home systems within range two. The Col have stealth armor cloaked LC with PPB V...
Cryslonite vs Toltayan - homes in range two.
Cue Cappa vs Clays - I settled a sphereworld in his home system Ein. OTOH I settled sphereworlds in home systems of other races who are brotherly partners. The CC are a puzzle to me. I have tried to make peace several times but they always refuse.
CC vs Drushocka happens this turn declared by CC. Due to Dru (Murd) vs Col (P Bro) war ? Territories do not yet overlap, but soon.
Drushocka vs Col and CC see above, vs Phong apparently just declared - Dru want Iou ? The Dru have poor relations with lots of folks.
Eee vs Sallegra - they are pushing colonies into S territory. It will be a long and bloody conflict. Eee are getting along well with Colonials. But Drushocka are going to have yet another war soon - territory conflict.
Krill vs Ukra Tal - 3 Ukra homes in Red glassed, but still homes in range two. I demanded using demanding tone to both of them to make peace with the other for several turns, but the war rages on. The Ukra no longer love me. Oh well, who needs a loser anyway ? This turn the Ukra give Red to the Krill. Maybe that will help.
Krill vs Xi Chung - just explorers in conflict at Central. The Krill seem murderous to everybody they meet. It is natural that they have a mutual dislike to the Murderous Xichung.
Narn vs Abbidon see above, vs Sergetti - they just recently glassed the Narn home in Yak, so territory no longer overlaps. Relations are murderous so the war will rage on.
Phong vs Xi Chung just ended with a NA pact due to my repeated demanding tone demands to both of them to make peace. But the Dru just declared war on P, so no rest for the weak....
Piundan vs Sergetti - homes in range two, vs Sallegra - explorers in conflict at Central.
Pyrochette vs Toron - their expansion west claiming Lenoltris, which will also soon open another front for the hard pressed Col.
Rage vs Clays - they really HATE my colony in their home system Fun. They also claim Fezzran, which I planted.
Rage vs Ukra Tal - the Ukra seem Brotherly, but the Om/Oft homes in range two guarantees war.
Sallegra vs Eee and Piundan see above.
Sergetti vs Narn and Piundan see above.
Toltayan vs Cryslonite and Xichung is homes in range two.
Toron vs Colonials and Pyrochette see above.
Ukra Tal vs Krill and Rage see above.
Xichung vs Krill and Toltayan see above.

You might be interested in a production and trade analysis, ranked by total minerals. First is the turn 30 rank/ current rank, then current rank by total score, then number trade partners, then trade partners increase since turn 30, then values (in thousands). Order is minerals, organics, radioactives with each giving production/ trade/ total/ current balance rate/ stockpile. I left the total off organics and radioactives to shorten the line. Last is research giving production and total with trade included. The Cue Cappa and Toron research rate is almost up to mine, but I am way ahead on points due to trading tech, so it is not a problem. It should be obvious that TRADE is very important. Notice that the miserable rank 20 Ukra Tal are right up there with rank 2 Sergetti due to trade....

Clays(me) --- 01/01 - 01/17/3 - 457/590/1047/000/1756 - 14/95/56/1107 - 19/141/42/1445 - 065/281

Toron ---------- 02/02 - 15/14/3 - 210/475/685/542/520 - 21/70/89/500 - 26/86/94/520 - 109/276
Krill ------------ 04/03 - 12/15/5 - 156/508/665/052/540 - 14/66/78/500 - 18/98/103/520 - 095/233
Piundan ------ 09/04 - 11/11/5 - 252/302/555/387/736 - 17/29/43/338 - 25/40/46/339 - 062/117
Colonials ---- 12/05 - 17/14/8 - 187/367/554/447/740 - 16/43/58/530 - 25/77/89/530 - 059/141
Cue Cappa - 03/06 - 18/10/1 - 158/355/514/459/660 - 18/54/72/500 - 25/76/97/540 - 102/269
Eee ----------- 11/07 - 03/04/1 - 376/101/478/366/1100 - 50/51/53/560 - 179/71/178/780 - 107/125
Toltayan ----- 16/08 - 07/10/8 - 212/244/457/294/700 - 26/22/45/385 - 49/28/59/415 - 111/151

Drushocka -- 10/09 - 08/11/3 - 205/228/433/296/740 - 29/24/50/580 - 38/32/59/660 - 107/154
Sergetti ------ 07/10 - 02/07/3 - 222/207/430/195/555 - 83/15/88/580 - 121/20/105/658 - 103/135
Narn ---------- 08/11 - 16/11/8 - 162/260/423/362/500 - 20/24/42/500 - 47/29/69/520 - 094/149
Sallegra ------ 05/12 - 10/11/5 - 208/214/422/281/720 - 62/65/85/540 - 38/27/42/500 - 102/156
Ukra Tal ----- 13/13 - 20/12/6 - 090/331/422/370/500 - 24/41/43/560 - 14/50/60/500 - 053/151
Pyrochette -- 06/14 - 09/04/2 - 314/107/421/318/740 - 22/07/20/530 - 85/08/58/560 - 111/126

Phong -------- 20/15 - 19/11/7 - 120/287/408/331/499 - 14/35/48/500 - 25/36/52/520 - 074/155
Cryslonite -- 15/16 - 06/10/6 - 159/230/390/187/708 - 61/23/80/560 - 25/28/30/463 - 107/164
Xi Chung ---- 17/17 - 14/12/8 - 112/265/377/266/561 - 29/35/28/199 - 13/35/41/500 - 057/128

Amonkrie --- 14/18 - 04/01/0 - 227/065/292/071/770 - 24/02/20/409 - 35/02/23/500 - 112/112
Abbidon ----- 19/19 - 05/02/1 - 165/073/239/044/608 - 35/02/33/620 - 59/03/45/600 - 104/104
Rage --------- 18/20 - 13/05/1 - 161/077/238/118/770 - 13/12/20/500 - 39/11/21/438 - 101/128

I timed my build schedule to be in balance on minerals this turn - hit it just right. Half my 14x39 colony base yards are built. Population has been distributed from the homeworlds to the sphereworlds proportionate to the number of sphereworlds they will colonize. That is not quite finished, still needs some moved from Ike and Central into Hen. The remote sphereworld colonies have their proportionate share too. Production of mines is almost complete for 200 per colony including those not yet planted, but the mines need to be shifted into the nexus systems proportionate to the colonies each plants. About 900 fighters with small PPB3 have been produced to encourage my partners to research phased shields so I can trade for it. Unfortunately they do not seem to have noticed, so I will have to research them myself. I am inclined to use small rocket pods on the fighters. Even though they are one shot, most fighters will be slaughtered before they could do the damage of a RP using beams. The closest I ever came to losing one of my dreadnoughts was when attacked by 75 such large fighters using RP3. Only my legendary experience, 7 PD V, and shield regenerators saved me. It takes five shots that hit for a small anti-proton beam iii (and four shots for a small incinerator iii) to do the same damage. Calculate 2500 shields and 2500 armor for each base ship plus another 3000 to destroy components. Then for one of them I need 8000 points/100 per hit = 80 hits. So I will build 400 for each place to be defended, stored in two carriers for warp points, in cargo facilities 3 for homeworlds, or in the regular cargo storage for sphereworld colonies. The fighters cost 2-4 times as much to build as the baseships they destroy, but moving a baseship just (7+5)x3x1/(1/4) = 144 sectors costs as much in maintenance as the fighters, not including idle time for fleet assembly, and assuming the chance of using emergency propulsion pods. Hmm. That's not so bad - five to eight systems out and back, which is within range of Central to anywhere on the map. The problem is in getting a fleet of baseships from Central to multiple threatened warp points in time to do any good. Maintenance costs for idle fleets on standby are prohibitive, and mothball/unmothball costs both time and money - not good. For warp points the first line of defense is mines, replenished by doing a temporary refit to minelayers on space yard space stations, or unmothballing a minelayer size 2500 Starbase if built. The second line is two cloaked carriers with 400 fighters. The third line is seven size 2500 Starbase attack bases mothballed until sensor sats in nearby systems detect an approaching fleet too big for the carriers to handle. The final resort is unmothball and move a fleet of baseships from Central to the problem system. They probably could not save the warp point bases, but they could destroy the invading fleet before it did too much harm to colonies.

Before blitz I plan on colonizing (invading if necessary) all 51-28=23 sphereworlds. I have identified 17 homespace warp points plus all ten of Central to be defended. My homespace will include 29 systems with 9 sphereworlds, 138 atmosphere none, and a total of 762 planets. That is a bit more than twice my fair share of 254/20 systems and 7175/20 planets, but I am greedy. I will not try to control the warp points of the other 23 systems I have already planted. It would be too great an expense for too little gain. If I can hit and run back to the sphereworld to demolish a ship/fleet I will of course. So I need my base yards to build 400x (39+23+17) =31600 fighters at two per yard per turn. I also need them to build 14x39-288 =258 more yards at five turns per yard. That is a total of 15800+1290 =17090 yard turns. About 100 of the 258 yards have already started. If I do nothing but minerals on the sphereworlds, then I can start 20 yards per turn beginning in 5 turns, resulting in the Last yard being built on turn 45+5+8+5 =turn 63. In the meantime I will have built fighters (more than)2x190x5 + 2x(370+ 350+ 330+ 310+ 290+ 310+ 330+ 350+ 390+ 430+ 470+ 510) = 1900+ 8880 leaving 20820/2x546=19 more turns till turn 82 building fighters. Building a 35k point base takes 18 turns till turn 100, but first I want to build 23 fleets to take the other sphereworlds about 12 turns delay for that. I also want to colonize/ abandon every ruins world to prevent the AI getting tech. So I can blitz on turn 82+12+3+18 + another set of fleets 12 = turn 127 - right on schedule! My pop is 128 billion now. At 4% per turn compounded 83 turns it hits 3318 billion/51 =65 billion per sphereworld, which has cap of 64 billion. So that is right on schedule too! I get minerals production of 1000 x (1.5 increasing to 1.7 with one value improvement plant 3) x1.9 x 39 x maybe 70 x 1.3 after robotoids = 11463k. This does not include anything I can produce on the 23 not yet taken. Maintenance on 80 x 14 x 1.3k yard bases plus maybe 3500k for fleets plus 80 x 7 x 5k for defense bases leaves 11463-8156 =3307k to run yards minus 80x14x2 for base yards minus 62x4k for colonies leaves 820k for running new planets - 410 of them.So by the time the second colony ship builds, the first should be near planting. By the time the second plants, the first should have built a couple of minerals to breakeven. Its all profit from there on out.

One more back of the envelope and I will quit this grand strategy lesson. The Sergetti are at 11xx k points growing at 3%. On turn 63 when my Last yards build and I am about to be Mega Evil 5000k what is her score ? About 1872. Cryslonite 823-&gt;1400. Who would surrender who achieves a rate of 3% ? Max score now would be 5000/(10x1.7) = 294 nobody at 3%. But the bottom nine are not at that rate. So if I see a chance to get almost everybody to surrender on turn 63 then I will take it, leaving just a few to keep under control while I colonize every planet in the quadrant. That should not take long. If I can NOT get them to surrender then I will avoid MEE by staying a modest surplus in minerals and scrapping the spaceport while building more minerals anyway. I will mothball yards (6 points score each) over the colonies if necessary, but it would delay the blitz.The yards on the warp points get highest priority - they never stop or morthball. To do that I am starting space yard battle cruisers with cloaks for the warp points already. When the transport BC are done shifting cargo they retrofit to yards and help out. As soon as I get the tech, everybody get a value improvement plant of course. If they stack I will do several on each of the sphereworlds. I have to check that out.


PS - I am still able to do three turns per day on average. So this game should only Last another month or so.....

[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 10 June 2001).]

I just checked the rocket pods thing. Since they do not work versus fighters, and most of the AI have LOTS of fighters, then it would be better to have a combination of some with rockets and some with PPB3. The ones with ppb would be most useful versus fighters since there is no phased shield for fighters. When carriers and fighters are present the rp will go after the carrier while the ppb engage the enemy fighters. Also the value improvement plants stack, but the absolute max is 250. So to get 150-&gt;250 in 60 turns you need 100/3x6= six value improvements. Not worth the slots and build time except on a sphereworld that has 100/200 facility limit.

Bump see the posting AI tech trade bugs. I doubt that the bug is specific to my game, but it is possible.

In my really big game it is now turn 60. I am posting a Winzip zip file with turn 60 in Scenario/Mod Archive Space Empires IV Maps and Scenarios. Politics are as follows - turn 30 score/ rank/ percent increase in score per turn 30-45, then turn 45 score/ rank/ percent increase in score per turn 45-60, then current score/ rank, then current/turn 45 number tech levels, then current systems/ planets/ colony ships with turn 45 systems/ planets/ colony ships in parenthesis, then units/ ships/ bases, then wars-w/ no treaty-n/ treaty-t, then my relation with the race. My score does NOT include 250+ mothballed bases worth 1250k+. The actual increase was above 5% per turn.

Clays(me) ---- (845/01/7)(24xx/01/3)37xx/01-331/191-30/039/00(30/39/2)-26393/107/360-2w/0n/17t-myself
Amonkrie ----- (616/04/3)(0945/04/3)15xx/02-084/073-08/091/04(07/63/3)-00925/142/012-1w/6n/04t-TR Ang
Sergetti -------- (719/02/3)(11xx/02/2)14xx/03-099/085-05/069/04(05/49/3)-01916/128/028-2w/6n/06t-TR Warm
Eee ------------- (595/05/3)(0980/03/2)14xx/04-075/060-15/095/12(14/76/3)-00813/071/000-0w/6n/07t-to P Bro

Abbidon ------- (636/03/2)(0866/05/2)12xx/05-064/060-08/059/03(07/49/3)-00649/123/000-1w/0n/02t-TA Mod
Pyrochette --- (479/10/3)(0729/09/3)11xx/06-093/079-05/065/07(05/46/0)-01569/051/011-1w/2n/07t-MA Bro
Cryslonite ---- (533/07/3)(0823/06/2)11xx/07-079/068-06/040/04(06/34/4)-00360/101/005-3w/2n/09t-P Rec
Sallegra ------- (428/14/3)(0718/10/2)10xx/08-084/070-06/067/08(06/36/2)-00836/098/004-2w/2n/13t-to TR Murd
Piundan ------- (453/11/3)(0709/11/2)0957/09-089/076-06/040/04(06/30/0)-02377/119/003-2w/1n/11t-MA Rec

Drushocka --- (488/09/3)(0731/08/2)0916/10-085/062-11/101/01(06/52/5)-00578/070/006-2w/0n/16t-MA Murd
Toltayan ------ (587/06/2)(0733/07/1)0877/11-083/075-05/049/00(05/39/0)-00433/068/000-1w/1n/11t-P Bro
Rage ----------- (453/12/2)(0611/13/2)0845/12-084/071-11/051/03(09/39/2)-01501/085/009-2w/4n/06t-War Murd
Krill ------------- (517/08/1)(0639/12/1)0759/13-081/061-06/035/00(05/23/2)-00171/086/000-2w/1n/15t-MA Murd

Colonials ----- (384/18/2)(0491/17/2)0658/14-100/081-06/031/00(06/25/1)-02022/051/004-1w/2n/15t-P Bro
Xi Chung ------ (439/13/2)(0597/14/0)0624/15-083/065-09/032/04(08/22/2)-01829/087/000-2w/4n/10t-TR Murd
Narn ------------ (422/15/1)(0517/16/0)0550/16-091/075-10/024/00(10/20/0)-01697/050/003-2w/0n/11t-P Bro
Cue Cappa --- (399/17/1)(0480/18/0)0529/17-084/066-07/038/01(06/32/1)-00371/037/003-1w/3n/10t-War *Bro*
Toron ----------- (410/16/2)(0559/15/0)0523/18-119/086-05/027/02(06/24/0)-01458/037/002-2w/1n/14t-P Bro
Phong ---------- (378/19/0)(0359/19/2)0517/19-076/060-05/028/00(05/20/2)-00162/055/001-0w/0n/12t-P Bro
Ukra Tal ------- (243/20/1)(0301/20/2)0431/20-071/065-07/018/01(06/17/2)-00108/057/000-3w/3n/12t-P Murd

Net change ships/bases - was 423 now 277 per 15 turns definitely down, but ships are bigger too.
LOST Toltayan -5/0, Drushocka -1/0, Xichung -2/0, Toron -1/-1, Cue Cappa -2/0
&lt;=10 Abbidon 5/0, Cryslonite 1/3, Krill 1/0, Narn 5/1, Colonials 7/2
&lt;=20 Rage 19/2
&lt;=30 Eee 27/0, Pyrochette 22/2, Sallegra 30/0, Phong 26/1, UkraTal 30/0
&lt;=40 Sergetti 24/8, Amonkrie 40/0, Piundan 34/1
more Clays 35/72(and mothballed 250+ more bases)

Net changes units was 3658 now 3880 per 15 turns - about the same
LOST Xichung -89, UkraTal -1
&lt;=80 Abbidon 37, Cryslonite 65, Toron 64, Cue Cappa 72, Phong 42
&lt;=160 Eee 130, Colonials 115, Toltayan 95, Krill 90
&lt;=320 Amonkrie 297, Drushocka 276, Rage 205, Pyrochette 310
&lt;=640 Sallegra 343, Piundan 545, Narn 356
more Clays 9163, Sergetti 928

Colonizing - the rate has picked up! Was 169 now 264 per 15 turns :
Clays none but 17 spheres in the next 15 turns
&lt;= 6 Toron 3, Narn 4, Cryslonite 6, Colonials 6, Cue Cappa 6, UkraTal 1
&lt;= 10 Abbidon 10, Toltayan 10, Piundan 10, Xichung 10, Phong 8
&lt;= 20 Sergetti 20, Eee 19, Pyrochette 19, Krill 12, Rage 12
&lt;= 30 Amonkrie 28
more Sallegra 31, Drushocka 49!
All empires see at least 400 colonize with breathe except :
Abbidon 20, Amonkrie 57, Pyrochette 85, Rage 166, and Sergetti 68

Races as they are seen by other races - not as they see the other races. Relations after the *** are those who see Clays as Moderate rather than Brotherly. They are ALL empires 14-20! A bug or a feature???? This data was taken with ALL races not under computer control for the examination. Possibly the player who is normally NOT under computer control can only be seen as Brotherly by the first dozen ??? Is this for a special distrust in the slots used by Neutral empires???
Clays TA-Bro TR-Bro P-Bro War-Bro MA-Bro P-Bro MA-Bro P-Bro P-Bro MA-Bro MA-Bro *** War-Mod TR-Mod TR-Mod P-Mod P-Mod P-Mod TR-Mod
Abbidon TA-Mod MA-Ami War-Murd ***
Amonkrie TR-Ang War-Mod TA-Warm TA-Warm none-Mod TA-Mod *** none-Mod none-Mod none-Mod none-Mod
Colonials P-Bro none-Murd MA-Bro P-Bro TA-Dis P-Bro TA-Rec P-Bro MA-Bro P-Bro TA-Mod *** none-Mod TA-Cool TA-Bro P-Bro War-Murd P-Bro TA-Bro
Cryslonite P-Rec War-Murd TR-Murd none-Murd MA-Dis P-Mod none-Ang *** MA-Mod War-Murd TA-Murd MA-Mod War-Murd P-Warm
Cue Cappa War-Bro MA-Ami TA-Mod none-Warm P-Warm P-Bro P-Mod *** none-Murd TA-Bro none-Dis P-Rec P-Bro P-Rec
Drushocka MA-Murd TA-Ami TR-Murd TA-Mod TR-Murd War-Murd MA-Murd TA-Ang TA-Murd TA-Murd *** TA-Murd TA-Murd TA-Murd TR-Murd P-Murd War-Ang NA-Murd
Eee P-Bro TA-Ami none-Bro none-Warm TR-Bro TR-Bro none-Warm TA-Ami *** TA-Ami none-Rec none-Rec none-Mod
Krill MA-Murd MA-Murd P-Murd War-Murd TR-Murd TR-Murd TR-Murd TA-Murd MA-Murd ***TA-Murd P-Murd TA-Murd MA-Murd P-Murd TA-Murd War-Murd
Narn P-Bro War-Murd P-Bro MA-Bro TR-Bro P-Bro *** TA-Rec War-Murd P-Bro P-Bro P-Bro TA-Bro
Phong P-Bro P-Bro TA-Bro TR-Bro P-Bro *** TA-Bro TR-Ami P-Bro P-Bro P-Bro NA-Warm
Piundan MA-Rec P-Rec TA-Mod none-Cool TA-Warm P-Rec P-Rec *** War-Murd War-Murd MA-Rec P-Rec P-Rec TA-Rec
Pyrochette MA-Bro TA-Mod none-Mod TA-Rec TA-Warm MA-Murd *** none-Ami War-Murd MA-Bro
************************************************** ***************
Rage War-Murd MA-Mod none-Dis TA-Mod TA-Warm TA-Warm none-Warm *** TA-Warm TR-Warm War-Murd none-Warm
Sallegra TR-Murd none-Bro War-Murd TA-Mod TA-Murd TA-Murd P-Murd TA-Murd TR-Murd War-Rec *** TA-Cool none-Warm TA-Murd MA-Murd MA-Murd TA-Murd
Sergetti TR- Warm none-Mod none-Warm TA-Mod none-Warm TA-Warm War-Murd War-Rec *** none-Dis none-Mod TR-Warm NA-Warm none-Dis
Toltayan P-Bro TA-Warm TR-Bro MA-Bro P-Bro P-Bro MA-Bro *** TA-Bro none-Bro P-Bro P-Bro War-Ang
Toron P-Bro none-Murd MA-Bro P-Bro P-Bro P-Bro P-Bro P-Bro P-Bro War-Murd *** TR-Bro MA-Bro TR-Bro P-Bro TA-Bro TR-Bro
Ukra Tal P-Murd none-Bro War-Dis P-Dis War-Ang none-Warm TA-Ang P-Bro P-Rec P-Dis MA-Murd *** war-Bro MA-Murd NA-Warm P-Murd TA-Bro none-Bro
Xi Chung TR-Murd P-Murd P-Murd NA-Murd none-Mod War-Murd TA-Murd NA-Murd TA-Murd *** none-Murd TA-Murd none-Murd War-Murd TR-Murd none-Dis

Okay I see some obvious patterns
1) Brotherlies - Clays, Eee, Phong, Toltayan, Colonials, Narn, Toron
2) Murderous - Sallegra, Drushocka, Krill, Xichung
3) My relations are improving from initial Murderous with Amonkrie, Abbidon, Pyrochette. But they fell rapidly with Ukra Tal and Krill after they demanded I break treaty with each other and I tried to interfere in their war by demanding they make peace with each other....
4) See my previous post at turn 31 for data from the anger files.


What has been accomplished in the Last 15 turns :
1) All colonies now have 14 yard bases above them. You will note that half of them are mothballed. This is due to a lack of minerals to run them, and also to avoid the 5000k point MEE level. All the bases have been retrofitted from the level built to the final design. That was expensive!
2) All but the Last two of 28 warp points leading to home space have been mined. Minelayers are finishing up those two.
3) Battle cruiser yard ships have been deployed to all 28 warp points and are building seven yard bases for each warp point.
4) Cloaked surveillance satellites have been deployed above all colonies. Mine/satellite laying battle cruisers are in the process of placing sats in all homespace systems.
5) All tech has been learned by a blitz colonization of almost all ruins planets within one warp point of all colonies. There was a lot of waste because I was not sure how many new techs I could get off of each world. Leftover colony ships are mothballed.
6) There is a BC yard ship and a minelayer parked above each of the 17 uncolonized sphereworlds building bases. This is to prepare for a blitz colonization.
7) All the colonies have built or are almost done with seven missile/pd large weapon platforms. The nexus colonies are doing eight.
8) 200 mines are in stock on all colonies. The nexus colonies have mines in stock for the 17 sphereworlds to be colonized. The colonies will each get 3000k population from the nexus world closest to them. Then each fleet returns for a second batch of population if possible.
9) Lots of fighters have been built, but I now doubt their value. Mainly they would be okay against other fighters or to send to the warp points, which cannot have weapon platforms of course. The number units in space is at the 5000 absolute limit. There are over 500 mines scattered about during colonization early in the game to be blown.
10) Minerals and radioactives production has been increased to exceed ship/base maintenance costs. With trade they are in excess of usage. Organics are not a problem.
11) Cargo facilities and value improvement plants are being built on homeworlds. Sphereworlds are building several value improvement plants.
12) The base storage was increased from 500k to 5000k to fix a problem with the AI not building ships a couple of turns back. I read about the problem on a thread in the forum. The effect was immediate for some empires. So the scores are not as high as they could have been due to stopped production by the AI.
13) Yard battle cruisers have been built and deployed to the planets with moons and a good production rate for m/o/r. Most are aleady building the starbases. A five step retofit sequence is designed for the minerals bases. Rads and orgs just change the mining components.
14) The game can be won on score at any time simply by having all yard bases build starbases with only a master computer on board. Then demand surrender from all. That would be amusing but not a real challenge.....

I am done with this game. For me it will not be a challenge. For a less experienced player (or one empire versus all other players) it could be really interesting. See the bottom of this post for suggestions on what to do next. There are three major reasons why I am going to move on to another map :
1) The AI has colonized only 7 of the 51 sphereworlds. There are 17 unclaimed, which I have BC yard ships over building bases. The next map should provide something besides rock/none sphereworlds. The AI are simply not interested in colonizing them for some reason.
2) The map does not have enough shortcuts in it. About half the races have met only about a dozen of the available. I really had expected all races to have met all others by turn 60 at the latest. The next map will fix it so that no system is more than 3 warp jumps from the central nexus. Also only 141 systems have been colonized by the AI. I expected them to have all but a few at this point in the game.
3) I want the next map created with LOTS of double moon planets for mining! Now that I have discovered the profit in double moons I am REALLY greedy. The production from remote mining is NOT included in what is traded to the AI and NOT included in score. So the only downside is the score for the starbase....

Besides flaws in the map there are some development mistakes I made, but those are not the major factors. This map BORES me now. I also want to change my race character for lower maintenance and better politics, with somewhat lower population growth rate. Also at the game start I made a mistake on adding the players by not having them use style from race as the default. So empires such as Xichung and Rage are making treaties they are not allowed. So the empires are not really behaving according to their design even when full AI on under computer control. A bug/feature which I have reported.


To play this map6 scenario use the files in the zip and change settings.txt lines below. Since it is a ten planet start and a 7000 planet map, you have to scale up by a factor of ten.
Maximum Number Of Systems := 255
Minimum Empire Minerals Generation := 2000
Minimum Empire Organics Generation := 2000
Minimum Empire Radioactives Generation := 2000
Minimum Empire Point Storage := 5000000
AI Mega Evil Empire Threshold Score Thousands := 5000
Default Number Of Units Per Player := 5000
Default Number Of Ships Per Player := 5000

The 17 colony fleets should be composed entirely of battle cruisers for speed and retrofit flexibility. To move population you need three cargo ships for each colony. To get there and back safely you need two fully loaded minelayers and two minesweepers. You also need a battle cruiser size colony ship to move fighters or weapon platforms in addition to the colony module. It only costs a little extra for the cargo space and hull. That makes 8 ships (@6 points score each) at the base yards of each of the 17 nexus colonies. Departure is set for turn 71, which is 15 turns after the yard ships departed for the new colonies. That gives just enough time to build 7 yard bases on each. The build schedule/allocation is given below.
Through Ein - Ejo fleet by Central II starts build at turn 61, Jest by Ein @62
Through Nizzarum - Huju by Nizzarum @62, Odd by Yak @61
Through Hen - Ain by Hen @62, Jinook by Zanthris @61, Jut by Ike sphere@60, Net - Uwin - Wurtuy by Central all three start 61
Through Red - Ah by Red @62
Through Osteo - Jog by Osteo @62
Through Oil - Etc by Oil @62
Through Ivy - Ape by Ivy @62
Through Ike - Eze - Equal - Eve by three Ike homes start 62

Also building are the seven yard bases at each of 28 warp points, and 25 remote mining starbases for m/o/r surplus. This puts you in a severe bind to avoid MEE until after the colonies plant. Yard bases are five points and starbases are 25. What you can do is mothball ALL excess colony base yards (except those on the 17 nexus colonies which build the fleets) as soon as they build their weapon platforms. As yards 4-7 are built on each warp point, mothball all but one and the yard battle cruiser. The yard battle cruisers need to retrofit to cargo to haul pop off the homeworlds, or as warships for the Cue Cappa warp points. As each RM starbase builds, let it run while doing the retrofits, then if necessary have the yard BC temporarily mothball it. But you are going to NEED those resources if the trade treaties get cancelled due to colonization, so get them built! You can also mothball bases at the new colonies as each gets 4-7 built, keeping one to unmothball the others and the yard BC. You have to clear the cargo out by having the minelayer lay mines, or just shift it into the yard you keep. Another problem is that mine sweeping by the Cue Cappa is getting serious. You NEED a starbase hull to retrofit up to a heavy beam station ASAP. It should be a five to seven turn build and only a turn or two for the retrofit sequence. But first you need a free yard, which may take up to four turns - I have not checked. In the meantime either build another minelayer at Ephandra or Vote or use those near Ulp. There are plenty of mines in stock. There is a minelayer on the way to Central for Ein, I forget just where it is. Of course ALL ships run cloaked, and retrofit to the latest quantum reactor yard ships for the obsolete design ones. You will notice that it has been a LONG time since I did an attack ship design. This is because my partners are allied with my enemies, and would share designs. Do NOT design a warship until you NEED it! Also in case you did not know, you must uncloak your yard BC to build anything.

The sphere worlds need to get as many value improvement plants built as time allows, preferably six or seven. You can do more m/o/r/int ONLY if you scrap a spaceport somewhere to avoid adding to the MEE score. Of course you get all the production back when you rebuild the spaceport later. Do NOT build the system robotoids etc until AFTER you go MEE. That way you can get a 30% production boost within a few turns. As soon as each homeworld gets one value improvement and a couple of cargo facility III built (scrap research facilities), it should start building a warp point closer with a repair bay on it. With Central XVI that gives you 11 to work with. There are large patches of uncolonized systems available, check out around Oil, Zanthris, Osteo, and Ivy. The claimed systems include all within one warp of a colony. So if you see no overlap between empires (empires - systems to avoid maps), then there are at least two systems uncolonized between them. Use the warp point closers to cut off swathes of systems, preserving the links to the nexus systems to shift population and ships. Close the homespace warp points only as a Last resort. If the enemy cannot attack through a warp point, he may decide to open his OWN! That would be very BAD! The warp point yard bases should be able to stock fighter starbases with fighters enough, if not then build more yards. In the meantime at MEE all warp points get at least one beam starbase. Fleet the yard bases with the beam starbase as fleet leader to get them to cluster. Build PD BC in case of attacks by carriers and fleet them with the bases as leaders one per base. You also need lots of warp point openers after you get the closers built. Basically, the enemy cannot open a warp point into any system which already has 10 warp points. So make it so, and improve transit times too.
All of this is very expensive and a quick back of the envelope shows that you CANNOT get resources fast enough or in large enough quantities with just the sphereworlds and the homespace atmosphere none planets. What you NEED is population for all atmospheres. You will note that the XiChung(methane) and Drushocka(methane) have boldly planted colonies in my homespace. Just before things go sour, either demand those worlds as a gift, or trade worthless ships for them....
Also you can get some easy surrenders at MEE from the seven weakest empires above simply by unmothball of the base yards and demand surrender. That still leaves a dozen to chew on, and provides lots of population to work with. It would be REALLY nice to have the 17 colony fleets available to shift pop out of them before the others blow them away!