This game is an expensive coaster

[Kagetora]

Well I played the demo of this game way back in September of Last year. I knew from the demo that the AI was pathetic to the point of non existance. I liked the design and figured it would be fun to play with other humans Online. Since they were saying TCP/IP would be put in I figured I could spend a month or 2 getting my feet wet and then be ready for real opponents. Well it's now been 8 months and counting and I still can't play this game in the manner that was promised and that I bought the game for. The AI is still the equivelant of beating up a baby and stealing it's juice. I am sick of people saying this company has such good customer support. They are still in the middle of a 3 year creation run which seems to be petering out 8 months after they sold this coaster. This is a mass produced fraud, not a game company.

[Spoo]

As I recall, TCP/IP support was put off because a large number of fans (from this very board) requested that AI improvement be given top priority. And improved it has! It's certainly not perfect, but given the complexity of this game it does a pretty good job. Not to mention, if you want human opposition, why not try Admiral's play by web server? http://seiv.admiral.com

p.s. Don't expect much sympathy from us.

------------------
Assume you have a 1kg squirrel
E=mc^2
E=1kg(3x10^8m/s)^2=9x10^16J
which, if I'm not mistaken, is equivilent to roughly a 50 megaton nuclear bomb.
Fear the squirrel.

[Deathstalker]

I only have one thing to say about this game. Since downloading the demo in October I have not really played another game since. Bought the Icewind Dale add-on and opened the box (played for about 2hrs, then went back to se4). The only other game that has had me this addicted was Civilizations (the original) back in my university days.

DAMN I love this game. And as to company support, in a world where games are fired out at us WAY b4 they are ready (anyone remember the Battlecruiser fiasco a few years ago?) I think MM has supported this game quite above and beyond the call of duty.

Aaron deserves a raise/holiday and his name in lights. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif (and whoever did the artwork as well, some damn fine shipsets there!)

------------------
"The Empress took your name away," said Chance.
Owen smiled coldly. "It wasn't hers to take. I'm a Deathstalker until I die. And we never forget a slight or an enemy." -Owen Deathstalker.

[Magnum357]

Dude, you cry like a baby!!! This is a one man operation (with Sharpnel games helping out some). I think MM has done an excellent job with this game. So what if their is no TCP/IP support, can't you play a game by E-mail? Or are you one of those type of gamers that likes "shootem-up" type games? Hey, if you don't like the game and want to use as a new fresbie for your dog, be my guest! Its your loss.

[Kagetora]

I didn't really expect any sympathy here as obviously anybody who thinks spending months playing this game a turn every 2 days with the complexities involved doubles for internet play is a whole case short of a six pack. I play the AI with one arm tied behind my back. I don't use mines, fighters, or any planetary defenses and I still stomp it flat with no effort on the hardest setting. Of course those of you not so bright or strategically minded might consider it adequate but when my golden retriever beat it he said it sucked too. I don't care what they said they have done or how many patches they put out this game isn't a game with no way to play solo or any way to play against other humans in the manner in which most human being would consider the proper way.

[God Emperor]

Kagetora,
Doesnt sound like you are playing the same game as me.
My current game (large galaxy, high difficulty, low AI bonus, all 16 mod pack races) is very challenging (see my thread "Tale of a Game from a Play Test Perspective" - I may be in 2nd place by turn 77, but, I've had to work like hell to get there).

Although the AI cant skirmish very well, when a mod pack race comes gunning for you, you are in for a challenging time.

If on the other hand you have played the mod pack races at low bonus or better and consistently beat them, then I'm not sure there are too many humans who will be a challenge for you.

I wish you the best of luck in finding a better space strategy game, as I think you will be waiting a long while.

GE

PS: There have been lots of strategy games since the Last great (MOO2), but, only SE4 has managed to take its title. With every patch, SE4 makes it harder for the next game to beat it, and Aaron seems comitted (from his replies to my suggestions, and those of others) to be taking on board gamers feedback in further improving the game - I cant see how this could be conceived as poor support.

PPS: By the way, my friends and I am hanging out for TCP/IP too, but, are still enjoying the game (particularly given all of the mods that fans are doing, and are able to do).

[rdouglass]

I agree with GE. If you're playing Mod pack races with at least a low bonus, high difficulty and are THAT dissapointed, please don't ask ME for a Human vs. Human game - you'll be dissapointed with me also.

Yes, I too can (easily!) beat the 'standard' AI without using ANY UNITS (fighters, mines, troops, sats, etc.) and giving them more Racial Points to boot! However, there are some very good AI's written for some of the races in the Mod pacs.

Try playing a game or two against the Rage and give them High Dificulty and Med bonus. If you still feel that way after that, you are probably a MUCH better player than the vast majority of people in this forum. I know personally, I was humbled....

[LeTharg]

Why not play PBEM? Is the pace too slow? I find the pace provides opportunities for lots of diplomacy and conniving. Your opponents will be intelligent and unpredicatable. I've been very impressed with the ability, maturity and competence of the opponents I've met.

PBEM also allows you to role-play. I'm trying a berserker race in a new PBEM. It may not be optimal (or survivable) but I bet I have a lot of fun.

[Nitram Draw]

Hotseat is also an option if you are lucky enough to live near some players.
This game is definately one of the best human vs human games ever. There are so many ways to win!

[klausD]

Kagetora
Instead of complaining you should mention a strategy game where the AI is better than SE4 Vs.1.35. The fact is, that there is none.
Maybe you played the 1.0 Version and won "one handed", but against the TDM races its another story.

TCP/IP: who cares about this? Do you want to tell us that you are playing a game over the internet which Lasts several hundred of hours?
As long as the scenario editor (for shorter games) is not available it has no sense to play TCP/IP.

klaus

[dogscoff]

QUOTE:
"play against other humans in the manner in which most human being would consider the proper way."
/QUOTE

When you say "most human beings" I assume you mean "most MSG junkie 17 year olds with an attention span of 4 minutes". Play by email (and play by snailmail) games hav been good enough for most people for a very very long time - long before TCP/IP was invented. Never played postal chess?

I prefer PBEM because I don't have time in my life to sit down and stare at a screen for 10 hours at a time. (except at work=-)Plenty of others in this forum are in the same position. Personally I think the introduction of TCP/IP could ruin my enjoymnt of SEIV.

I need my strategy in small packages because I do other things too. I like having a day to think about my next turn in quiet moments. Just because you have no patience, don't assume we don't either.

------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so, Brain, but balancing a family and a career ... oooh, it's all too much for me. "

[Richard]

Just a quick note guys.

This is coming from an offshoot of a post to another forum. The original poster decided to attack Aaron and myself on a forum on cdmag and attempted to call both of immoral and unethical and other such nonsense.

I am upset about this but let's keep it somewhat low key as maybe you guys can convince him otherwise. However with his posting on the cgOnline.com forum I somewhat doubt it, but there's always hope.

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

[mac5732]

Richard I will respect your request, but sometimes people like this "person" need to be addressed.
I've been a gamer for over 40 years and I can say this

1st - this person is not a "gamer"

2nd - If he had the demo in Sept as he claims he knew what the game was like, therefore his statments are more then likely false

3rd - SEIV is one of the best computer strategy games ever put on the market, and with the modders additions, I don't know of any other game that can compare with the Ai

4th - Both you and Aaron have given and continue to give the "best support then any other gaming company, designer, or programer in the industry".

5th - This person sounds and appears to be someone who just wants to stir up trouble and in fact, I rather even doubt if this "person" actually has played the game let alone the mods

6th - If this "person" wanted to play other human players, why hasn't "it" played hotseat like a lot of the rest of us.

7th - therefore, I for one do not take anything "it" says to be other then what it realy is, and that is #$%^%$.

8th - I could go on but I hope "it" gets the point, and further if "it" doesn't like then "go to some other forum, we don't want or need persons of your unstable character here taking up space.

9th - I apoligize to you Richard and Aaron for my long winded post, and to all you other guys and gals on this forum, but this "person" needs to be taken to task

I again apoligize to everyone

just some ideas Mac

[geoschmo]

I am in a PBEM game with 4 other guys on http://seiv.admiral.com where we have gone through 44 turns in the Last 20 days. That's over 2 turns a day average, not a "turn every 2 days."

That probably wouldn't be fast enough for some people waiting on TCP/IP, but I think its pretty damn good considering we all have jobs and live in different time zones.

In fact we'd probably be up to turn 60 by now, but the Last week or so I have been very busy with other things and have not been able to keep up my normal pace.

Geoschmo

[Richard]

Well I have had enough of it to be honest, I just can't please some people.

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

[Possum]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Deathstalker:

DAMN I love this game. And as to company support, in a world where games are fired out at us WAY b4 they are ready (anyone remember the Battlecruiser fiasco a few years ago?) I think MM has supported this game quite above and beyond the call of duty.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NO, DEATHSTALKER, NO! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I agree with everything you're saying, but I just cringed when you mentioned Battlecruiser. Don't you know Derek Smart's reputation? It is said that if you mention his name or his games three times in ANY forum, ANYWHERE on the internet, he will appear to defend himself and rip you a new one http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

Kind of like the old saying, "speak of the devil, and he appears"


Oh, and as for you, Kagetora, you're a whining little dick. Go away.




[This message has been edited by Possum (edited 24 May 2001).]

[Krakenup]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mac5732:
9th - I apoligize to you Richard and Aaron for my long winded post, and to all you other guys and gals on this forum, but this "person" needs to be taken to task <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why bother? It won't do any good. He's just looking for attention. Ignore him and maybe he'll go away.

Don't feed the troll!

[Nitram Draw]

Some people would complain if they won the lottery. I think this may the case here.

[GruelThePurple]

Simple - If you don't like a game, you don't play it.

No one in the world has liked everything they have ever purchased. It's part of life to try things and learn from those experiances.

---

If belly-aching is required, find a tavern and I am sure that the drunkard in the corner will listen to anything you want to rant about for the price of a beer...

[Kagetora]

Not surprisingly, you people have no clue what you are talking about. Those that feel as I do about this game haven't been sitting here posting about how great this unfinished product is. We have been patiently waiting for more than 8 months for the product we already paid for to be delivered. As to the mods, Aaron didn't even write those. How can you give credit to his game for an AI that he didn't even participate in creating? You all know as well as I do that TCP/IP play was implied, promised whatever you want to call it for this game and it hasn't been delivered. Instead, Aaron has supposedly been catering to the miniscule minority of mod makers and players of such while ignoring the vast majority of those who are waiting for the internet opinion in silence. As to better games, I haven't even finished a game of this because playing the AI is the equivelent of beating up a baby and taking it's juice and just about as much fun too. Any game I can actually play would be a vast improvement.

[Nitram Draw]

If you feel you have bought a defective product then you should probably ask for your money back. I personally feel like I got the deal of the century with this game. It has surpassed all my expectations.

[rdouglass]

Man am I bummin! I bought this new piece of software called Windows 2000 that was supposed to be the answer to all my problems. The advertisement told me I could do all my spreadsheets, databases and word processing documents as well as surf the Internet and get E-Mail. All that it came with was this program called 'WordPad'. I want my money back!!!

Now there are people telling me I need to go out and buy a word processor as well as pay for an Internet ISP!!!

Boy, I bet there are a LOT of people that feel as screwed by Microsoft as I do!!!

[Kadste]

Kagetora,

You seem like a person that likes to play real time strategy games and first person shoot-em up games. SEIV is not a real time strategy game, nor is it a shoot-em up game. It is turn based.

YOU DO NOT play this game using some of the mods created by this user comunity. If you had, you could not substantiate your comments. This is not a guess, IT IS FACT. Ask the Users from this forum, they will tell you. IF you own this game, download some of the AI mods, and give them a try. Post your save games every 10 or 20 turns and show us that you are still beating up a baby. In other words, put up or shut up.

[Atrocities]

Kagetora, everyone is entitled to their opinions of the game, I am just sorry that your opinion differes from mine.

[Aussie Gamer]

I am coming in late to this lamb-basting of him.

Ok!
First- Everyone has a right to feel that if they did not get what the thought they were getting that they have a right to complain about the product.

Second- This is the first game were I can have a big influence on:
a- the design, the designers are very open to e-mails and discussing player ideas
b- i can actually change the game by modding it to what I would like it to be like. I am not a programmer but can chnage a text file.

You don't get that sort of support from other gaming houses, mostly you by a buggy game and some time in the future they may realease a patch. MM and all have endevoured to fix bugs as quickly as found.

True this is not the game that I fully like but it comes dam close.

If you don't like it then sell it off to someone who might.

You have had your say so now you can get up from the table and leave the building.

[Vger]

Hello,

It seems obvious that this person is a troll, since his only defense is to reiterate his original points. I've been playing computer games since the days of CPM and I've only seen a few other cases of such intense aftermarket support (Gary Grigsby comes to mind).

If he only plays what the developer puts out there, then he's likely missed a great deal of good gaming over time. How many good Doom, Half-Life and other mods he must have missed.

I don't have the game yet, but have enjoyed the demo a lot and look forward to the challenge of the modded AIs. (My copy of SE IV should arrive Sat. or early next week.)

I have already downloaded every mod I can find and look forward to tinkering myself.

No, the AI in the demo is not a challenge. Perhaps that's what he is playing and that could also be why he gives no hard evidence (such as saves where he is beating the Rage) that he is the ubermench he proclaims himself to be.

Rather, he seems to be out to sow hate and discontent and tick fans of SE IV off. I don't belive I shall ever fathom this mindset.

A view from the sidelines,
V'ger gone

[Dracus]

While I am personally not a beta tester (did not get signed up in time). I would like to say this.
MM has been very open with this game. I have reported the WinMe P4 issues to him and He as responded asking for details and files. I have yet to hear from any other game company were there are bugs or issues with their games running on my system. Nor have I seen any other gaming company ask for my input on something and then either tell me it will be in the next patch or that the game can not handle that sort of change.
MM has done this (as you can see on their web site.) And if you check the patch history They have add some changes that Modders here wrote. (check the formation file for example)

I too like the way I can change things and enjoy knowing others enjoy my changes. As I enjoy what others have add to the game also.

I have yet to find another game out there that allows me to add to it nor have I found a forum with such a group of people in the same mind set.

I Have changed the AI attack rates to were they will attack nearly every turn and even the standard AI that come with ver1.35 has improved to the point were they are using a lot more mine sweepers and attacking my other system more And with the Mod pack add ons. I have lost whole systems to single fleets attacking one planet after the other.

The game I have going now, The AI's have attacked so much that I can not keep up with rebuilding my ships.

I may actually lose this one.

P.S. MM and Sarge (Richard) I for one thank you for your support, the use of this forum and for the group that this game has drawn to it.

[jc173]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kagetora:
The AI is still the equivelant of beating up a baby and stealing it's juice. I am sick of people saying this company has such good customer support. They are still in the middle of a 3 year creation run which seems to be petering out 8 months after they sold this coaster. This is a mass produced fraud, not a game company.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok two things:
The AI, I've done some professional work on computer games before and AI is really difficult. In my opinion, the AI does have its problems, but I think there's a reason for that. The game was designed to be open ended for modification and improvement so a lot of the AI algorithms probably had to be generalized, because almost anything can be changed. It's a lot easier to design an AI which only has to deal with a specific set of situations and moves so to speak. However, the AI has greatly improved in even just the few months since I bought this game in February. As for the customer service, I'm not sure what you're gripe is. How many companies continually release upgrades and patches that incorporate user suggested changes and improvements or make allowances for Users to do so? Personally I know of very few companies that have given me responses so quickly when I sent in email. As for your second post, this is an honest question not sarcastic, but are you so sure that the modders and solo players are in the minority and that people who want TCP/IP play are in the majority? I mean seriously how do you know?

[Puke]

I want to know what games Kagetora has been playing that "measure up," because I have been missing out if they are that much better than the se4 AI. while this game is not the best AI ever, it certainly measures up fairly well in the latest Version - and I have not played a game yet where the AI could challenge a human without using numerical superiority or cheating.

SSI games were good, but they were not THAT good. Imperialism 1 was a fine product in my opinion, how does that one rate on the Kagetora scale, so I have some point of reference?

[me3000]

is what i read correct? this is entirely the work of one man? holy cow; the amount of blood and sweat that went into this program is unbelievable. this is far better than any other 4x program i have ever played, back to the old days of the origional reach for the stars. this is truely an epic achievement. to whine that you dont like it - after using the demo - is rather crass. if you knew from the demo that you didnt like it, why be so silly as to buy the full game?

[Possum]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kadste:
Kagetora,
You seem like a person that likes to play real time strategy games and first person shoot-em up games. SEIV is not a real time strategy game, nor is it a shoot-em up game. It is turn based.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Guys -

I've noticed that it seems to be popular in here to denigrate those who choose to play FPS or RTS games. I really feel this is somewhat unfair.

Those who play what Kadste calls "shoot-em up games" are not idiots, not are they attacking us or giving us any grief. Why are folks here basing on them like this?

Kagetora is ONE idiot causing problems. Let's not condemn whole sectors of the gaming community on the basis of that, eh?

I have played Team Fortress for 2 and a half years now, through its original Quake1 Version, through the Half-LIfe Version, and now in the Quake3 Version. It has challenges all its own, and offers a team-play experience that no turn-based game ever can.

You may prefer oranges, but that doesn't mean those who prefer apples or bananas are bad people, or less intelligent than you.

And some of us enjoy a variety of fruits, eh?

[AJC]

I say this guy is just looking for flame bait and gets off on the reactions... a lurker with nothing better to do.

IMO extreme opinions like this one, that are obviously full of holes are not worth responding to, if it was true the game wouldnt be as popular as it has been.

Aaron has done and outstanding job - from the beta testers to the buying public we have all been working with MM.
Its like we have all had our own private programmer creating the 4x space game us old time gamers have all wanted since first cracking open Starfire in 1977.

[Sirkit]

Ahem,
In defence of 17 year olds to witch I am a member *growl* I personaly love this game for the very reasons he is complaining about, the ai (not all that easy in my opinion) the images (how customizable!!) and MOST of all PBEM. While this trouble maker appears to be griping to these main points I must respond with, 'uh huh' and 'oh really?'.

Space Empires is Old School as far as my generation is concerned and THANK GOD for it. If a single corprate mind got their hands on it would have been degraded to exactly what this 'person' wants a jazzed up, sped up semi shoot-em-up. Ug I think their is quite enough of those thanx I'll take SE IV and run, and if ever shrapnel sells it to the god forsaken corprate empires on that fateful day I will find an old patch and play on it because this is MM and MM is the best *)(( company I've seen!

And Now I will speek of shrapnel, and to this I must direct the attention to annette, if ever their was a persone to talk to it was her! I had problems with the delivery she went the exta ten miles to make it right! *Big Breath* I'm done ranting thx for reading.

[Hotfoot]

Hm, well, this is just my guess here, but I would say it's a pretty safe to assume that this guy is vulnerable to acid and fire. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

Kagetora:
You say that there's a "silent majority" who wait for IP gaming? Hm, well, most people who want IP game would be Online I would imagine (they would to have an IP that anyone would be able to connect to). If that's true, then I would think that most people would have enough brain cells to rub together to find the MM or SG websites, and from there, these forums.

Even if that's not so, instead of coming in here and letting out a racehorse-sized piss of hot air, why don't you gather up all of your little friends who want IP multiplayer so badly and make your opinions known?

Yes, well, sorry about that. I wanted to have my first post on these forums to a hapy one, but I really just don't like trolls.

-Hotfoot
"Ah well, next time, next time!"

[Wolverine]

Kagetora is entitled to his opinion as is everyone else, however his only argument seems to be screaming "I was promised TCP/IP play, I was promised TCP/IP play.......". It doesn't look as if he's spent much time actually playing the game and investigating all the excellent mods out there.

This game appeals to virtually all the people on this forum because not only is it an indepth game with vast complexity/variability (i.e. there's no one way to win), but it allows you to get involved with the development of the game as well (AI/Shipset Creation, Mods etc.).

Compared to other games I've purchased(Activision should rot in hell for Call To Power II!!), SEIV is one of the best games I've ever purchased. TCP/IP play would be a useful option, but it shouldn't be prioritised in sacrifice to AI improvements, Bug fixes.

It's obvious that it's the majority against Kagetora. Therefore instead of continuing to justify Kagetora's singular argument by responding, I reckon we should stop posting to this thread and let it slip down into the archives.

That's my 2 cents, I'll shut up now and go read the threads which have something constructive about the game in them.

[jowe01]

Read this threat and it really upset me. Not because of Kagetora's post but because of the answers. Guys, is this "La court du roi" where everybody tries to please King Aaron the best he can, or is criticism still allowed ?
Kagetora made two very valid points:
1. TCP/IP was promised
2. The AI is still weak.

O.K., he chooses rather extreme formulations but nothing which I feel would leave the area of civilized complaint (until HE got flamed). In return you call him "dick", "idiot", "troll", etc.. Well, I personally do not feel that his complaints are so absurd and so absolutely unjustified that his post can only be understood as the deliberate provocation of a troll who is looking to be flamed. This forum has always been an extremely civilized one. Please do not forget that freedom is always the freedom of somebody who thinks differently !

Concerning Kagetora's two points: At least I second them:
1. TCP/IP was repeatedly promised and I am waiting for it. I also do not have the time to play 10 hours in a row but I want to use it to play some regular "Wednesday night SE4 sessions" with old friends from school who are now living all over Europe. If contrary to what was promised TCP/IP does not get implemented, SE4 would still be a good game, but it would loose significant value, especially with regard to 2.

2. Yes, I know the AI was improved after release. However, I also feel it is still pathetic. On "No bonus" I would beat it with my eyes shut. On low bonus and using the (excellent)mod pack, I still always win if I get past turn 30, despite the fact that I cripple myself in various ways. On medium and high bonus I may sometimes have difficulties, but, hey, is this a sign of a good AI ? Tell me, in the weaker strategy games you know, would the AIs not often win if you gave them three or four times the normal production ? I am looking to be challenged by the AI's campaigns, not to be squeezed by sheer weight of numbers.

So in some respects I must share Kagetora's complains: SE4 was an unfinished product when it was released. It has improved since then but is still lacking features which were originally promised. Worse, there is not yet a sufficient challenge if you do not give the AI outrageous unfair advantages.

Still, SE4 has a great ruleset. If now, they would only get the AI right (and/or allow me to play against HI) ...

[This message has been edited by jowe01 (edited 25 May 2001).]

[Elmo]

Kagetora is none other than BillB who has been beating up Richard about SE4 over at cdmag. Nice to see you took Bob's advice and moved your criticism over here. Your Posts are always a fun read.

Elmo

[Taqwus]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jowe01:
Tell me, in the weaker strategy games you know, would the AIs not often win if you gave them three or four times the normal production ? I am looking to be challenged by the AI's campaigns, not to be squeezed by sheer weight of numbers.
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ever play an RTS scenario? Most of them operate with the "sheer weight of numbers" approach, giving AIs complete bases, significant forces and often most of the map at the beginning of a level. Others, such as Civilization-type games, rely primarily on cheating at all levels from production bonuses to a "penalize the tech leader" cost model to making AIs handle diplomacy with people in a far more one-sided model (getting angrier faster, making idiotic demands and then declaring war if you fail to bribe them every few turns). _Shogun:TW_ is another game that needs to blatantly discriminate against human players to pose much of a challenge to an experienced player, through such details as deficit spending, production and combat bonuses, and not-exactly-simultaneous moves.

Also compare and contrast complexity, customizability and detail with, say, traditional counter wargames ala TOAW:COW. The differences are obvious... and the computational cost and theoretical difficulty are incomparable.

------------------
-- The thing that goes bump in the night

[LeTharg]

I agree with jowe01. I think there is room for criticism especially the AI. I don't play solo because it is no fun. The Rage may be difficult at a 5X bonus but that doesn't seem fun to me. An idiot with a big enough club may be dangerous but he's still an idiot. And 5X is a huge club.

Don't get me wrong, I've gotten tremendous value from this game playing PBEM games. I'm amazed at what MM hasw accompished with so little in resources. I think there is a cooperative way we can improve the AI so I'm pushing a previous post on this issue to the front.

[Kagetora]

Kagetora is none other than BillB who has been beating up Richard about SE4 over at cdmag. Nice to see you took Bob's advice and moved your criticism over here. Your Posts are always a fun read.
Elmo&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Well I tell you what. I am not BillB although I do know who he is. He informed me that Richard in a misplaced and just wrong attempt to for whatever reason pretend he and I are the same person released my real name on the other board. This is in my opinion private information they recieved by my purchasing their game. I take great offense that it has been released particularly in so cold and callous a manner and for so base a purpose.

[Kagetora]

Richard has totally crossed the line. Not only has he rationalized that this game was never really intended to have TCP/IP which anybody that has been here for any length of time knows to be false but he is now lying and acting like it was a couple months after the demo before it was even brought up. I was reading these Boards prior to the demo even being released and I am quite certain implications were made here that this game would eventually have TCP/IP capability long before the demo. This was my primary reason for purchasing the game in the first place. I knew from the demo the AI was terrible. I loved the design and figured it would be fun to play against other humans. However, this is still impossible in any reasonable manner.

[danjel]

SEIV is a PBEM game. TCP/IP support is unnecessary.

[Kagetora]

So in some respects I must share Kagetora's complains: SE4 was an unfinished product when it was released. It has improved since then but is still lacking features which were originally promised. Worse, there is not yet a sufficient challenge if you do not give the AI outrageous unfair advantages.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

I couldn't agree more. The reason I haven't bothered with the mods is because all they do is give the AI outrageous advantages in an effort to get some value from this product. I can't see how it can even be called a computer game at all with no AI or any way to reasonably play with others or at least in the manner most customers or even other game companies would consider reasonable. Richard on another board is now pretending that the demo Version of this game was as finished as it should have been for sale. I must be blind, because I can't believe anybody on this board didn't know this game was incomplete when they bought it and expected it to be completed later?

[Kagetora]

If you feel you have bought a defective product then you should probably ask for your money back.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Actually I did ask for my money back in writing and was told it was against their policy to give any refunds at all for any reason. Which is typical for fly by night organizations.

[Suicide Junkie]

Question for Kagetora:
How fast do you finish an average turn?
How long does it take to transmit a turn file to your friends?
Is Tactical combat important to you, or sequential play?

If you want tactical, sequential play,and a fast turn turn around time, I would suggest ICQ. Play your turn, and send it instantly, while giving the next player a poke to hurry up http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

If you are OK with using simultaneous to speed up the game, the use the Play-by-Web (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/Forum23/HTML/002278-5.html) service.

Unless your turns are really short, integrated TCP/IP support will not speed up your game significantly over the other options out there.

[geoschmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>O.K., he chooses rather extreme formulations but nothing which I feel would leave the area of civilized complaint (until HE got flamed). In return you call him "dick", "idiot", "troll", etc.. Well, I personally do not feel that his complaints are so absurd and so absolutely unjustified that his post can only be understood as the deliberate provocation of a troll who is looking to be flamed. This forum has always been an extremely civilized one. Please do not forget that freedom is always the freedom of somebody who thinks differently !<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

jowe01,

No one is resonably stating that Kagetora does not have a right to post valid complaints in the forum, but your defense of him is misplaced. He left "the area of civilized complaint" in his very first post. Noone had even read it or responded to him when he stated <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am sick of people saying this company has such good customer support. They are still in the middle of a 3 year creation run which seems to be petering out 8 months after they sold this coaster. This is a mass produced fraud, not a game company.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't think anyone has defend the ai, or the lack of Tcp/ip support. We are simply taking exception to his rude, and unsubstantiated comments regarding the level of support from Malfador. He has his number one priority, Tcp/ip. It is NOT the number one priority of Aaron, or EVEYONE else who has bought the game. Whether or not it is the priority of the majority of customer, I can't say for sure. But from the level of comments here I would say not. If anything, the "vocal minority" seem to be the one's demanding that tcp/ip be implemented immediatley. That is not to say that we all wouldn't like to see it happen. But because we all aren't clamoring for it the way he has he has labeled us... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Of course those of you not so bright or strategically minded might consider it adequate but when my golden retriever beat it he said it sucked too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Everyone has the right to their opinion. Complaints about the ai or requests for tcp/ip are valid points. Calling Aaron and Richard criminals (before you say he didn't call Aaron a criminal, look up the definition of "fraud") or unethical for not doing things on his schedule are not the kind of things reasonable people do.

Geo

[Kagetora]

Unless your turns are really short, integrated TCP/IP support will not speed up your game significantly over the other options out there.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Well frankly I put this game on the back burner only checking in here periodically for the new patches and awaiting the TCP/IP to be included. I never realized it might actually take this long or perhaps I might have entertained some alternatives before now. However, I didn't and I don't know anything about those you mentioned.

[Kagetora]

Everyone has the right to their opinion. Complaints about the ai or requests for tcp/ip are valid points. Calling Aaron and Richard criminals (before you say he didn't call Aaron a criminal, look up the definition of "fraud") or unethical for not doing things on his schedule are not the kind of things reasonable people do.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Well, look I understand the difficulty in doing creative type things like this. However, you can't advertise you are selling something and then not deliver what you advertised and people paid their money to get. I don't care if is deliberate on their part or not they still have an obligation to provide the product they said they would. I have a hard time believing that if Aaron had really wanted to he could have finished this game in more than 8 entire months. Entire games have been started from scratch and finished in less time. Problem is he has the money already so he has little incentive now to finish this game the way he said he would.

[rdouglass]

We'll I gotta' throw my hat into the ring again on this one...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kagetora:
... However, you can't advertise you are selling something and then not deliver what you advertised and people paid their money to get...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was it ever really advertised? I only remeber it being mentioned as 'planned'. Post me a quote and I may feel otherwise.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kagetora:
...I have a hard time believing that if Aaron had really wanted to he could have finished this game in more than 8 entire months. Entire games have been started from scratch and finished in less time...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know of any of the major game publishers out there that'll do one in less than a year - even a new Version of an old game. I'm personally sorry you dislike the game so much. However, I'm really enjoying you scrambling around trying to justify (IMO) your unfounded statements and observations. Yes everyone is entitled to their own opinions, just like @$$holes...everyone has one....

[Nitram Draw]

I can understand, but no agree, with your complaints. This is not the first, and certainly not the Last game, that didn't meet everyones expectations, and possible some advertising, which I can't comment on. If you believe all advertising have I got a deal for you.....
As far as the AI is concerned, I agree that it can easily be beaten after a certain point regardless of the difficulity or if it is a stock race or a mod race. It is, after all, a program and once you figure the way to beat it you can repeatedly beat it if you play the same way. This is true of any computer game, regardless of the designers claims on how good their AI is.
I would suggest you try the some of the following and see if you don't feel a little different.
Try the TDM mod
Try playing as a Pirate or Nomad with SJ's Pirate mod.
Try playing the game a different way, don't follow the same research pattern, vary your style, build different ship, etc.
Play a hotseat game if possible.
Play a High Tech game in a small quadrent with 10 good starting planets, 20 races, and 100K starting resource points.
Give them time and the type of internet play you want may still happen.

[This message has been edited by Nitram Draw (edited 25 May 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>However, I didn't and I don't know anything about those you mentioned.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, now you do... so have fun whomping those overseas friends of yours with your elite strategic skillz http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Possum]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kagetora:
Of course those of you not so bright or strategically minded might consider it adequate but when my golden retriever beat it he said it sucked too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damned impressive dog you got there, dude. You selling any puppies? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Kagetora]

Was it ever really advertised? I only remeber it being mentioned as 'planned'. Post me a quote and I may feel otherwise.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

What's the difference? Read the malfador news where at both Thanksgiving and Christmas Aaron said he was working on the multiplayer for the next patch. That was 6 months ago. You can't just spout features you intend to put in to get everybody to buy the game based on those claims then not follow through. If somebody sold you a house and said they would fix the roof and you moved in in good faith and then they didn't fix the roof. Not only would that be unethical as hell but they would be in violation of a verbal contract and would get their asses sued off. That is exactly what happened here.

[Warlord Adamus]

"Well, look I understand the difficulty in doing creative type things like this. However, you can't advertise you are selling something and then not deliver what you advertised and people paid their money to get. I don't care if is deliberate on their part or not they still have an obligation to provide the product they said they would. I have a hard time believing that if Aaron had really wanted to he could have finished this game in more than 8 entire months. Entire games have been started from scratch and finished in less time. Problem is he has the money already so he has little incentive now to finish this game the way he said he would."

TC/IP wasn't advertised nor was it promised. As with all of the other suggestions sent to MM, Aaron filed it under 'to do'. We still may yet see it. Implying you were decieved is pretty stupid when it was never on any features page. He said he was working on it, if the wait is too long for you too bad, other things have higher priorities.

[Sinapus]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kagetora:
Was it ever really advertised? I only remeber it being mentioned as 'planned'. Post me a quote and I may feel otherwise.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

What's the difference? Read the malfador news where at both Thanksgiving and Christmas Aaron said he was working on the multiplayer for the next patch. That was 6 months ago. You can't just spout features you intend to put in to get everybody to buy the game based on those claims then not follow through. If somebody sold you a house and said they would fix the roof and you moved in in good faith and then they didn't fix the roof. Not only would that be unethical as hell but they would be in violation of a verbal contract and would get their asses sued off. That is exactly what happened here.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it looks like you are lacking in patience and are having a public snit over it. Because they didn't do things to satisfy your wants.

There was no set promise for TCP/IP play. Only that they were working on it. Obviously, they ran into some snags. The map editor was mentioned at that time as well and it only came out a few weeks ago.

Btw, care to support your claim about your golden retriever? Or were you just spewing insults in advance of anyone who might just dare to disagree with your assessment?



------------------
--
"What do -you- want?" "I'd like to live -just- long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless eyes and wave like this..." *waggle* "...can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

[Jourin]

Other companies continuely promise features and then don't deliver, take the customers money and run. Aaron and MM is not doing that. Review the history of support for SEIII for additional support. Aaron and MM have set the standard for cusotmer support.

So your attack on Aaron, MM, and Shrapnel for lack of customer support invalidates all you other arguments. Your crediability is non existent and personally I do not believe any of your claims on beating the AI on high difficulty with your hands tied. You implied that you haven't played a game since before Christmas, which means you have not played against the new AI. And being a blunt person, I will just call you a liar.

And the only reason I responded to this message was to show my appreciation for the outstanding customer support I have received from Aaron.

[Dracus]

Well I for one am still waiting for simcity 3000 to get patched with all the things that were posted on their site over a year ago as coming in a patch. Have yet to see one patch for that game. (now here is a game that did not live up to it's prior Version. They made some nicer building pictures but the map editor is worst then the one in simcity 2000. they took out all the cool arcos but show them on the box cover.) man now that game was a total rip off.

[This message has been edited by Dracus (edited 25 May 2001).]

[Sirkit]

I'd like to appilogize for my rant earlier but this guy rubs me the wrong way. This HAS always been a freindly forum but this thread and it's creator are changing that and it's the PITS!!! Okay hes upset because theirs no TCP/IP support to witch he beleives was promised him, got news for you it was MENTIONED not PROMISED there is a big diference there. I could say I'll send you world peace for your b-day but I won't because I can't I don't have time to solve every problem in the world, same goes for Aaron can you imagine how he would feel if he read this! He's benn called slow a backroom dealer and a LIAR!! How dare anyone say such a thing about anyone, let he who is perfect throw the first stone.

BTW Blizzard one of the largest and most influential programing companies has taken 3 YEARS from planing to present to send out War Craft 3 because they believe that if you take your time it will be better in the long run. Who here hasn't played StarCraft hmmm? It by the way took 4 Years to make.

My advice to Aaron would be take your time have a life go out on occasion as long as you keep us posted once and a while We'll still be here to defent your image from people like this who would throw the first stone by false beleif that they are perfect.

[Kagetora]

No, it looks like you are lacking in patience and are having a public snit over it.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Yeah, I am lacking in patience I only waited for 8 months without saying anything. Oh and the thing about the dog was a...well it was a joke. Apparently you have about as much a sense of humor as you do an intellect which is none. Many of you really need to quit playing this piece of crap game and go read a book. Then perhaps you could get your IQ's higher than your shoe sizes.

[This message has been edited by Kagetora (edited 26 May 2001).]

[jc173]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kagetora:
Was it ever really advertised? I only remeber it being mentioned as 'planned'. Post me a quote and I may feel otherwise.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

What's the difference? Read the malfador news where at both Thanksgiving and Christmas Aaron said he was working on the multiplayer for the next patch. That was 6 months ago. You can't just spout features you intend to put in to get everybody to buy the game based on those claims then not follow through. If somebody sold you a house and said they would fix the roof and you moved in in good faith and then they didn't fix the roof. Not only would that be unethical as hell but they would be in violation of a verbal contract and would get their asses sued off. That is exactly what happened here.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually there's quite a bit of difference between an actual advertisement/contract and a list of features that may be implemented. There are laws that govern advertising, but I don't think a todo list is covered anywhere under contract law. It might depend on how the list itself was presented etc etc but I digress. If you want to get into the realm of contract law and other legalities, well nowhere in the those two news updates does it specifically state that either of the two updates in question refer to TCP/IP implementation of multiplayer games. The first refers to a utility to assist with muliplayer games which I guess is the PBEM tool, I can't be sure since I've never really taken a look at it though. The second update only refers to multiplayer enhancement.

[Resident Alien]

Close your eyes, listen to the sound of your breathing..... in, out, in, out...... be one with the sound of your breathing. Relax. Your mind is a calm pool.....

You like it, or you don't. If you do, play on. If you don't then, don't play. It's simple. You don't need to have the Last word. It's only a game.

[God Emperor]

Kagetora,
Just as a note; none of the mods in mod pack or my mods (ResearchDesign or Klingons, Romulans, Shadows, etc) actually give the AI an advantage. All they do is better optimise the way in which the AI operates - eg equips ships, does its research, reacts to political overtures, etc.

Now you can argue (with some justification perhaps) that this means that the game wasnt fully complete, but, the game architecture is far beyond any other game I have played.
Also, the willingness to undertake patches clearly demonstrates Aarons committment to the game.

The main thrust of my comment here is that the game should not be written off and assigned to the dustbin - any comments you make in this direction are unfounded.

I believe that you should limit your comments to the lack of TCP/IP support (which I would like to see at some point too) - most of your other comments reflect a lack of play experience with the game or the mods that are available for it, and appreciation of what has been done to date.

As a final comment, I too was reading the forum prior to the games release and noted the cries from people to have the game released as soon as possible, in whatever shape is was. I believe that Aaron responded to these demands to some extent and this made me wary initially of purchasing the game - I didnt actually order a copy until the second patch was released around Christmas time and I was able to assess peoples feedback in the forum.

Since I received my copy though, I have greatly enjoyed the game and many of the mods, despite some issues, and have not touched another game since.
For me (a very picky gamer), this places the game in the same Category as MOO2 and Civilisation in the addictiveness stakes.

As I said earlier, feel free to give your opinion regarding TCP/IP (in a non-imflammatory manner), but, dont cane the whole game - particularly if you havent experienced all of its potential (via mods, PBEM, etc).

[Master Belisarius]

Kagetora: if you want to play Online, you don't need to wait anymore for the TCP/IP feature in SE4! Simply go and play Homeworld or Imperium Galactica II, or wait for MOO3 and Stars! Supernova, or something else fantastic game.

[Atrocities]

Very well said God Emperor. Your skill with diplomacy is without second.

[Richard]

Actually I have had some time to cool off from this as I took in Pearl Harbor (pretty good, you should check it out).

Kagetora, like everyone on this forum, has a right to his opinion. At the time I reacted rather harshly to his accusations of myself and Aaron being unethical, immoral, crimnial, and such and attempting to assert that we lied to him. I will not apologize for my reaction to that as everyone who knows me knows that I try to be more than fair in every situation.

As far as TCP/IP goes it is something we would like to finish but it is not something we promised at the time of sale and is not listed as a feature of the game. I never stated otherwise. Part of the problem is we are sometimes too open with our fans and some people don't know how to deal with this. When a new load comes out in beta I actually post the full history file showing to the world all of the bugs that are fixed instead of hiding them like many companies do. We also try to help the folks working on the game. I have acted as a medium on many occasions when a specific person had a suggestion on fixing the game and somehow Aaron missed his email. I have been working extensively with Doug Fields to get Play By Web off the ground and worked with him and Aaron to help fix the command line problems with 1.35. I also worked with cdmag to get the modders work recognized (as they deserver) in a larger venue.

So eve though part of me is still upset I will offer you a deal. If you really feel that slighted please drop me an email with another Shrapnel Game of your choice and I will mail it to you. Now I am not admitting fault by doing this and I don't plan on doing this for everyone else. But obviously some bad blood has happenned here that is not good for the community, and our community needs every player.

So if your serious about resolving this instead of shouting and calling names just drop me an email at rdarnese@shrapnelgames.com.

Thanks.

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

[Possum]

Richard, that is very generous of you.

There is an irony in this, really. Someone who felt equally slighted, but complained politely, would certainly not have been rewarded like this. But Kagetori was extremely rude, and he gets the unheard of break.

Can you see how this would seem to encourage discourtesy?

I fully understand the pragmatic reasons why this happens, it just seems bitterly ironic.

[Richard]

Actually it depends. If someone came to me with a legitimate concern and I felt we had misled them then I would have done the same thing probably.

Problem is for this specific issue there would be no way to convince me of that rationally because we didn't do anything wrong.

One problem with arguments like this is once the rhetoric gets to a certain level neither side can find a "safe" way out without loosing face. At least this way maybe he will feel more comfortable to drop this and if that costs me a free game that's no big deal.

However your right, if I saw a group of copycats spring out of this I would probably be less forgiving to the new guys http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

[Atrocities]

Richard, without a doubt, your one of the most forthright company guys I have ever had the fortune to interact with. What you are doing here for this guy goes why beyond customer service, and for that, you deserve to be recognized.

It is an absolute shame that, at times, people feel the need to be difficult about something that they should otherwise use more diplomacy with.

I for one am thankful for having this game, and for ALL the work you and Aaron have done to keep us up to date on game developments. I lucked out finding this game back in August and have been supportive of it ever since.

I remember when BOTF came out, and the developers at Microprose got bombed hard because the game did not measure up to the fans expectation. They go so inundated by hate mail, for an otherwise awesome game that even to this day is par non, the best star trek game out, that they just simply said no more help. You ungrateful little people are on your own now. Aaron and you have not done this despite the set backs, and for that, I am very grateful.

Space Empire IV provides far more than just game play. It provides growth, creativity, and expandability. This is far more than any other game has to offer, and that is a fact. Sure in time it will have TCI/IP play, but it was never a guarantee, and if we get it, fantastic, if we don't, no sweat. Eventually, perhaps in SEV, we will, and that is something I am prepared to wait for.

I love this game, and I know that I am not alone or else you would not have over 60 fan made races with unique ship sets, Mods, or other fan based supported items.

Please do not let the opinion of one person who chose to voice it in such a manner as to ignite a flame war, over the value of what so many others have placed upon this game. You are a good company exec, and Shrapnel Games is a great company. Aaron chose very wisely in partnering up with you, and we all know this to be true.

Keep up the good work Richard, and please let Aaron know that he too is very much appreciated.

[Kagetora]

Kagetora,
Just as a note; none of the mods in mod pack or my mods (ResearchDesign or Klingons, Romulans, Shadows, etc) actually give the AI an advantage. All they do is better optimise the way in which the AI operates - eg equips ships, does its research, reacts to political overtures, etc.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Well as I said I haven't tried any of the mods, I really only wanted the game to play TCP/IP with friends. I am not sure how you can be certain exactly how the mods do anything unless you programmed it yourself, although I can't disagree more on giving the game itself credit for completion based on mods they didn't even produce. However, perhaps I should try one and see for myself.

Which mod is the best one and where can I download it?

[Resident Alien]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kagetora:
... However, you enraged my friend and he has actually obtained an attorney. Not sure where that might lead yet. .... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry but I can't take this BS any more. I've seen this drivel on too many newsGroups/web Boards before to be impressed. The old "I'm consulting an attorney" bluff.... yeah right, and the moon is green. A lawyer will charge $50-$100 just to hear the problem and the $$'s only get bigger from there. Perhaps you might get an explanation from your friend as to why he thinks that is sensible for a $40 computer game.

[Kagetora]

But Kagetori was extremely rude, and he gets the unheard of break.

Can you see how this would seem to encourage discourtesy?&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Actually, considering I have been called several actual names including one that could be considered a profanity by puritanical types and the general response toward me here has been the basic equivelent of go jump off a short pier I think I have been quite courteous.

[Kagetora]

The old "I'm consulting an attorney" bluff.... yeah right, and the moon is green. A lawyer will charge $50-$100 just to hear the problem and the $$'s only get bigger from there. Perhaps you might get an explanation from your friend as to why he thinks that is sensible for a $40 computer game.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Him and Richard got in a big fight on another board and he got pissed off enough to call an attorney. I am already being accused of being him when I am not so I don't really care to defend or even talk about what he is doing.

However, it's not the 40 bucks that matters. According to him they are considering a class action suit which would return anybodies money who choose to join the suit. Including any of you. He would also recoup all attorney's fees and even his expenses if he wins the case. Many attorney's will take such cases without pay and take pay upon winning.

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Well as I said I haven't tried any of the mods, I really only wanted the game to play TCP/IP with friends.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
SO GO PLAY WITH YOUR HUMAN FRIENDS ALREADY!

Technically, PBEM and even more the PBW, are TCP/IP, since they use the internet.

Stop complaining that you can't bike anywhere without pushing a few pedals.
Using the Play-by-Web (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/Forum23/HTML/002278-5.html) system is only an e-mail and a few extra mouse clicks per turn away!

Now click this link to Play-by-Web (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/Forum23/HTML/002278-5.html) and e-mail the author about starting a game!

[Resident Alien]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kagetora:
Him and Richard got in a big fight on another board and he got pissed off enough to call an attorney. I am already being accused of being him when I am not so I don't really care to defend or even talk about what he is doing.

However, it's not the 40 bucks that matters. According to him they are considering a class action suit which would return anybodies money who choose to join the suit. Including any of you. He would also recoup all attorney's fees and even his expenses if he wins the case. Many attorney's will take such cases without pay and take pay upon winning.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I saw the discussion on CGO forum and it was "handbags at 20 paces" stuff - petty, nitpicking and irritating to anybody with a shred of common sense. Oh, and in fact just like this thread (except for my Posts of course http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif )

This is what I expect from 5 year old children. And this "threat" is just more of the same BS, "Bwaaah, I'm not getting my way" so I'm going smash the game board over.

[Alpha Kodiak]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kagetora:
Which mod is the best one and where can I download it?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Without getting involved in the argument, I will give input here. Start by patching to Version 1.35 if you haven't already, then get the TDM Modpack Version 1.72 from the Scenario/Mod forum Space Empires: IV - AI Races/Ship Sets thread. There are other great mods, but this one is a good starting point as it does not change the technology in the game and can therefore be used with several other mods. It does improve the AI scripting and it adds several excellent races.

[LeTharg]

I remember an article in one of the gaming magazines in which a columnist said that the constant bickering over trivia was killing the niche strategy market. Now I'm new to the turn-based strategy world; SEIV is my first such game so I don't know how it is with other games. But I can see that the profits from niche games must be tiny (and are much more likely to be losses). If we want these games to prosper or even to exist we need to be supportive and understanding. For the most part, this is a very supportive and understanding community.

Law suits are very expensive in time, money and mental energy. A law suit could easily cause a game to cease to exist. I really would like the SE series to continue because I'm having so much fun playing PBEM.

I think we all want the same thing: gaming goodness and fun. I also think some of us have chosen tactics that are detrimental to that end. Unless the game being played is not computer based...

[Kagetora]

SO GO PLAY WITH YOUR HUMAN FRIENDS ALREADY!&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Look I understand okay? You all are arguing with BS logic. If I order a gun from a company and they send me a hammer instead. You can't tell me I shouldn't be pissed because I can still defend myself with a hammer. It's not the same thing.

[Kagetora]

I remember an article in one of the gaming magazines in which a columnist said that the constant bickering over trivia was killing the niche strategy market.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

I understand where you are coming from. But, if I hire a contractor to remodel my kitchen and I pay him up front and he doesn't put any hardware on any of the drawers or cabinets, that is trivia to you because it isn't your kitchen. However, if it was your kitchen you would feel no remorse about sueing the person to get him to finish the job, nor would you worry you might put a contractor out of business either. Just because these people make something that is entertainment and we like doesn't mean they shouldn't be held to certain standards of ethics. They get away with exaggerating and outright lying about their products far too much already and I am not just talking about this company or game in particular. How many games do you buy that you are really satisfied with? That do exactly what they say or that have adequate AI? Very very few. You can't misrepresent your product and then sell it, that is fraud. There is absolutely no difference legally between them saying something on this site, in an email, in the newletter or advertising it on the game box or a tv commercial. That is a verbal contract that must be abided by.

[Resident Alien]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kagetora:
SO GO PLAY WITH YOUR HUMAN FRIENDS ALREADY!&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Look I understand okay? You all are arguing with BS logic. If I order a gun from a company and they send me a hammer instead. You can't tell me I shouldn't be pissed because I can still defend myself with a hammer. It's not the same thing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you ordered a gun and got a hammer you would indeed have a good case. If you order a computer game and get a computer game.... The comparison doesn't fly.

You bought the game based on the fact that it might get TCP/IP sometime in the future, it hasn't yet but it might one day so you are SOL for the moment. You can be patient and wait, or forget the whole thing, sell the game on e-bay, take Shrapnel offered game, if you push it enough maybe get your money back etc. Not un-reasonable options.

How many hours have you played SE4? I don't believe you didn't enjoy playing at least one game vs the AI at the start. If you didn't care, you wouldn't be posting. I guess you received some value for that original $40 - $10 or $20 at least.

Personally I could spend $40 on sushi and beer in an hour. TCP/IP or not I think I have recieved a reasonable return on my original investment of $40 over the Last 9 months or so. I played SE3, SE4 and hope to play SE5 in future. $40 every couple of years seems a very reasonable investment to me.

[This message has been edited by Resident Alien (edited 26 May 2001).]

ps. The kitchen analogy is also an over the top and exagerated comparison.

[This message has been edited by Resident Alien (edited 26 May 2001).]

[geoschmo]

Your analogy is flawed, K. (And that's not a personal attack, simply a debating terminology here) You got the gun that was advertised. The package was clearly labeled that the gun did not include a telescopic sight at this time, but that they might in the future. And you have decided to read this as a promise when no promise was ever stated, only a possiblity.

However, it is good to see you express the thought that you might try some of the mods in the future. I think this will greatly improve your enjoyment of the game.

Also if you would like to check out http://seiv.pbw.cc I would be happy to oblige you with a game against real live humans. It's not as fast as TCP/IP I guess, but I have a game there that is up to turn 45 in three weeks. At this rate we should be well past 100 turns in 6 months. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

Geo

[mottlee]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kagetora:
I am not Bill B. I am assuming you think I am because we share an email address purely as a junk mail dump. However, so far the only thing you did to me personally other than not complete this game I paid for, is give out my real name on another board. I think that was foolish, misplaced and wrong but it is unlikely to cause me any suffering. I also would point out I have never shouted or called anybody a name least of all you. However, you enraged my friend and he has actually obtained an attorney. Not sure where that might lead yet. However, are you offering me this game? Are you offering it to him? Both of us? Not sure he would want you to know what his actual name is which you would if he responded to this. I will have to ask him.

[This message has been edited by Kagetora (edited 26 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Kagetora (edited 26 May 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IF you share an E-mail address YOU must take take some of the falt in this also for there is no way to tell just WHO is sending E-mails IF you share one (also you can get into a lot of hot water)(and lots of stink too)



------------------
mottlee@gte.net
"Kill em all let God sort em out"

[Kagetora]

IF you share an E-mail address YOU must take take some of the falt in this also for there is no way to tell just WHO is sending E-mails IF you share one (also you can get into a lot of hot water)(and lots of stink too&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

No you misunderstand. I don't actually use that address to send any email, neither does he. We just put that address in when asked for on Boards and such because a lot of places Online take that address and put you on the junk email list of the earth. I never even log on that address nor do I read any of the mail that goes there. It never crossed my mind somebody like Richard might do what he did and misunderstand. He shouldn't have done it in the first place.

[LeTharg]

Kagetora,
I've been thinking about your claim. If I was on a jury I would find against you. You can't use weak AI as a claim that you were ripped off since you had played the demo before purchasing and knew the state of the AI.

So your entire claim rests on the "promise" of TCP/IP. But you have presented no evidence in this thread that there was a promise of TCP/IP especially a promise with a definate date. I wasn't here then so I don't know but the other posters make it clear that there was no committment to TCP/IP. Instead there was a list of possible enhancements. User preferance for other enhancements has put TCP/IP way down the list.

I would find you guilty of being a foolish consumer however. If TCP/IP was so important to you, you should have waited to purchase until that was truly available. You seem to have familiarity with the software and game marketplace so your claim of taking a to-do list for a commitment seems disingenuous to me.

[Resident Alien]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by Kagetora:
I am not Bill B. I am assuming you think I am because we share an email address purely as a junk mail dump. However, so far the only thing you did to me personally other than not complete this game I paid for, is give out my real name on another board. I think that was foolish, misplaced and wrong but it is unlikely to cause me any suffering. I also would point out I have never shouted or called anybody a name least of all you. However, you enraged my friend and he has actually obtained an attorney. Not sure where that might lead yet. However, are you offering me this game? Are you offering it to him? Both of us? Not sure he would want you to know what his actual name is which you would if he responded to this. I will have to ask him.

Originally posted by mottlee:
IF you share an E-mail address YOU must take take some of the falt in this also for there is no way to tell just WHO is sending E-mails IF you share one (also you can get into a lot of hot water)(and lots of stink too)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would like to initiate a debate upon the Duality of the Kagetora/BillB entity. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Up to now the followers of the debate have on balance believed that there were two entities involved - mostly based on the forthright claims of K.

The two are:
1) BillB - a wildly inconsitent entity - swinging from saying what a great game this is, to suddenly "this sucks, I want my TCP/IP, I'm calling my lawyer". I postulate that this entity be labelled the "Dark Side" of the K/BB Duality.

2) Kagetora- consistantly demanding his perceived rights regardless of reasonableness and scale of $'s expended. Has maintained a consistant argument in face of many unbelievers. And fervently claims to not be BillB (and who in their right mind would want to be associated with BB's posting record?).

What is the evidence:

a) They share an e-mail account. For junk only K says.
b) Their opinions are very similar.
c) They do not post on the same web Boards at the same time.
d) However the tone of posting is subtely different.

After review of the circumstantial evidence this author will continue to believe in the separate nature of these two entities until decisive evidence is brought forward to prove they are one and the same.

However the many followers of the K/BB Duality theory will not be convinced.

[This message has been edited by Resident Alien (edited 26 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Resident Alien (edited 26 May 2001).]

[Kagetora]

I've been thinking about your claim. If I was on a jury I would find against you. You can't use weak AI as a claim that you were ripped off since you had played the demo before purchasing and knew the state of the AI.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Well what you say is true. However, you are blaming me for being gullible and getting conned and letting the person who conned me off the hook. I had no reason to believe they wouldn't do as they said they would. In retrospect I certainly should have waited until the TCP/IP feature was actually in. But, I had no reason to think it would take so long either. I figured I could take the time to learn the game and be prepared for real opponents when it did get put in. The design of the game is pretty complex.

[Kagetora]

a) They share an e-mail account. For junk only K says.
b) Their opinions are very similar.
c) They do not post on the same web Boards at the same time.
d) However the tone of posting is subtely different.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Well I hate being forced to defend myself when I haven't even done anything. However, as to the email that can be proved quite easily. The address is puzzlesthewill@aol.com bomb away to your hearts content. Would I do that if I actually used that address?

We are friends, we have discussed this issue at length and we both got fed up about it at the same time. Thus why we have similar opinions. He has never posted on this board and I have never posted on that one. I haven't even posted on this one myself before the Last few days since probably December sometime. As I said before I just check in periodically to get the new patches and find out if the TCP/IP is done yet.

The tone is subjective and you will have to judge for yourself. I am not saying anything further to "prove" I am myself. This should never have even been a topic of conversation and wouldn't be if Richard had not violated my privacy without cause.

[Dracus]

You go to a software store (i.e. Best buy) and buy a computer game. Take It home but find you are not happy with that game. So you try to get best buy to give you your money back. SInce the game is opened they will not give you a refund nor will they let you get another game in it's place. They will exchange it for another copy only if it is damaged upon opening. (Shrapnel has also done this)
Best buy has no way of knowing if you just copied the game and are trying to steal it by getting your money back. So they have a policy in place that says no refunds on opened software. The fact that Shrapnel is willing to replace your game with some other author's game is in my mind beyond and above anything you would get from a retailer or even most big named software developers.

As for being a minion or not very bright (I think that is what You said in an earlier post) I consider That I am very Intelligent as I work in the computer field and have been playing computer games since they were written in basic and had no display. just words on the the screen. Nor am I a minion of any game company. I play real time games and I play turn based games. When I want to play without planing and time to think about my next action, I play real time games like Myth. When I want to sit back and role play or think about my next action, turn based games are the way to go. So as a turned based game, SEIV is a very good game. (I could send you a box full of games that suck and were put out by big companies with a lot of statements for things they were going to add posted right on the shipping box that they never did.) Unless you are like me and just like to try new games just to see what they are, then you should never buy one just because you think they will add something in the future. You sould buy it because you like the demo/sharware/prior vers. So if you are looking for Web play games, then you should stick to buying thoses that release with it included. Unless they stated that they for sure will have something by such and such date and then don't provide it, there really is no legal case. (I have not seen anyplace were this was stated that Web play would be added with any actual insurance.)
If there is
then post the site locations and I will be glad to review them. This is the best action to take rather then post that we are lacking in brain area or a false statement that your dog can beat the game.(A MORE BELIEVEABLE STATEMENT WOULD HAVE BEEN: My 3yr old can beat this game.) which results in others judging you as either being a child in which case you would have no understanding of the legal system (if this is the case then I for one excuse you and withdraw any and all my Posts in this matter.) or that you are an adult with a child like mentality in which case, I really don't know what to say.

As for being the same person, I have never been to the other site so I can not make any statement for this nor do I plan on trying to. I am just sticking with what you have personally wrote.



[This message has been edited by Dracus (edited 26 May 2001).]

[Kagetora]

. If you order a computer game and get a computer game.... The comparison doesn't fly.

You bought the game based on the fact that it might get TCP/IP sometime in the future, it hasn't yet but it might one day so you are SOL for the moment. You can be patient and wait, or forget the whole thing, sell the game on e-bay, take Shrapnel offered game, if you push it enough maybe get your money back etc. Not un-reasonable options.

How many hours have you played SE4? I don't believe you didn't enjoy playing at least one game vs the AI at the start. If you didn't care, you wouldn't be posting. I guess you received some value for that original $40 - $10 or $20 at least.

Personally I could spend $40 on sushi and beer in an hour. &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Well, I would argue that a disk that has a game on it that I can't participate in, in any manner that I wished to when I bought it or that any other game company would even consider appropriate, I didn't get a computer game I got a coaster for my 45 bucks.

I am not sure Richard was offering the game to me. If he says he was that would satisfy me. He hasn't responded yet. Look you are obviously young so lacking in experience about such things. But, if you watch the ads for all that crap on TV late at night I can assure you 90 percent of that stuff doesn't work at all the way they say it does. They even give a money back guarantee which this company didn't even do. They make their money because they know 99.9 percent of the people who get it and find out it doesn't work aren't going to bother to rebox it and send it back. Nor are any of them going to sue for a lousy 20 bucks. However, that does not make selling a faulty product suddenly ethical. It only takes one person to get mad enough to do something about it.

No I think the kitchen analogy was quite apt. I would even stretch it further. If I am promised the kitchen by the contractor and he leaves off the hardware he could do as this company is and say. "Well I never promised you hardware for the cabinets" A judge would rule that an assumption that a finished kitchen would have hardware was implied in the contract whether or not they actually said it or not. Regardless of what was actually specifically promised for this game is irrelevant actually. The point is, is this game a finished computer game? Did the company do the finishing? I would say no.

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Look I understand okay? You all are arguing with BS logic. If I order a gun from a company and they send me a hammer instead. You can't tell me I shouldn't be pissed because I can still defend myself with a hammer. It's not the same thing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They gave you the damn gun, now go get the bullets and play-by-web with your friends.

That is what you want, right? To play humans? Then go ahead. Nobody's stopping you, and certainly not SE4.EXE.

[Kagetora]

Also if you would like to check out http://seiv.pbw.cc I would be happy to oblige you with a game against real live humans. It's not as fast as TCP/IP I guess, but I have a game there that is up to turn 45 in three weeks. At this rate we should be well past 100 turns in 6 months.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

I have certainly done marathons before. The main problem I see with this is you have to have reliable people that keep the turns moving. My biggest concern is I would spend months and as soon as I start beating somebody they would quit. With TCP/IP my friends and I could play an entire game in a weekend or 2 weekends at most. It's just too much time and effort for me any other way. Although, I am happy some of you enjoy it.

[Suicide Junkie]

Yo, if your friends are willing to all get together to play direct-connect TCP/IP, then why can't they play PBW?
If you're all playing and submitting turns at the same time, there's no reason why you can't do 20 turns a day on PBW.

[bob f]

rder &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

That says it all.

[Dracus]

You are still comparing apples and carrots.

Software companies never sell finished products, if they did then there would not be any need for patchs, add-ons, etc. Name one game that was sold as a finished product and had everything they said they would like to include when they first made it known they were working on the game.
Even your OS is not completed. (I.E. In Nervada, MS stated that Win98 would end the blue screen of death problem. They turned on the computer and it core dumped. Bill was so red in the face. They released the product 4 weeks later to the gen public but if you bought a new system, it came with it installed. &lt;I have win98 a month before it was released to the stores.&gt; They then later still came out with Version 2 which was still not complete and made a number of patchs.)

Do that and You may just convince me.

I am out, I got a mod to release (no time given so no one will hold me to it.)



[This message has been edited by Dracus (edited 26 May 2001).]

[Kagetora]

This is the best action to take rather then post that we are lacking in brain area or a false statement that your dog can beat the game.(A MORE BELIEVEABLE STATEMENT WOULD HAVE BEEN:&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;


Look I don't know you and you didn't have to post your resume. The thing about my dog was supposed to be a joke. I didn't think it was all that subtle that anybody would think my dog actually played it. I don't question people's intelligence unless I am given reason to. But, to me that is enough reason to.

[Kagetora]

Yo, if your friends are willing to all get together to play direct-connect TCP/IP, then why can't they play PBW?
If you're all playing and submitting turns at the same time, there's no reason why you can't do 20 turns a day on PBW.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Well I don't know but 20 turns in a day still seems awfully slow to me. How many hours are you talking here? Have you tried it? I haven't been able to play this game TCP/IP yet but I have played others that way and I would think 8 people could do the first 20 turns anyway in an hour or 2 at most.

[Kagetora]

Software companies never sell finished products, if they did then there would not be any need for patchs, add-ons, etc. Name one game that was sold as a finished product and had everything they said they would like to include when they first made it know they work woking on the game.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Actually I buy games that have been out a year or more off the bargain bin all the time and I go to the website to check for patches and while there is usually at least one that fixed bugs, not to finish the game I have gotten games that didn't have any at all. The most recent being Jagged Alliance UB, which is a great game btw. However, you are using faulty logic. I can say that all bank robbers have robbed at least one bank but that doesn't mean it's okay to be a bank robber. They all need to finish their games before they sell them as a matter of ethics.

[Atrocities]

I would like to make a suggestion.

Stop responding to Kagetora's comments. He is obviously a very intelligent individual who enjoys controversy. Especially controversy he starts.

My sisters father in-law is an attorney, and I think the threats of a class action law suite are so … well, pathetic. First and foremost, the game is NOT defective. You do not have anything in writing that Promises TCI/IP play. When compared to other games, including PC Gamers review, SEIV scored very hi for its quality and AI.

Kagetora, I really don't care to read any more of your attempts at causing problems. I would hope that Richard would move this thread to an OFF TOPIC forum, as that is where it belongs.


[This message has been edited by Atrocities (edited 26 May 2001).]

[Kagetora]

My sisters father in-law is an attorney, and I think the threats of a class action law suite are so … well, pathetic. First and foremost, the game is NOT defective.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Well I think you saying your sisters father in law being an attorney somehow makes you an authority on law to be one of the most pathetic things I have ever read. Thus the rest of your opinion is equally pointless. I also have said it's not me pursuing a lawsuit. Not even sure the person who is will actually do it at this point. They are in the peliminary stages at best.

[Richard]

This thread is really getting us no where at this point. Let's move on folks...

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

[Kagetora]

So eve though part of me is still upset I will offer you a deal. If you really feel that slighted please drop me an email with another Shrapnel Game of your choice and I will mail it to you. Now I am not admitting fault by doing this and I don't plan on doing this for everyone else. But obviously some bad blood has happenned here that is not good for the community, and our community needs every player.

So if your serious about resolving this instead of shouting and calling names just drop me an email at rdarnese@shrapnelgames.com.

Thanks.


Well Richard, that is nice I guess. As I said however, I am not Bill B. I am assuming you think I am because we share an email address purely as a junk mail dump. However, so far the only thing you did to me personally other than not complete this game I paid for, is give out my real name on another board. I think that was foolish, misplaced and wrong but it is unlikely to cause me any suffering. I also would point out I have never shouted or called anybody a name least of all you. However, you enraged my friend and he has actually obtained an attorney. Not sure where that might lead yet. However, are you offering me this game? Are you offering it to him? Both of us? Not sure he would want you to know what his actual name is which you would if he responded to this. I will have to ask him.

[This message has been edited by Kagetora (edited 26 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Kagetora (edited 26 May 2001).]