Fixing the Horrid UI

[Atrocities]

There has been a lot of discussion about the UI and how in effective it is. While I cannot comment about what was said during the beta it is clear now that many of the people buying the game don't like the current UI configuration and lack of intuativeness. While I think the UI looks very professional, the functionality of it leaves a lot to be desired.

One of the most effective ways to affect change would be to isolate the discussion around the UI and suggestions for improving it. That way at some point a list can be presented to Aaron out lining what fans would like to see done to improve the UI.

Know this, there are literally dozens of UI improvements suggestions currently available to Aaron via other means, and as of yet he has been unable to focus his attention upon improving the AI because he has been working on taking out the bugs discovered in the retail version of the game.

So don't give up on seeing UI improvements. They are just going to take some time.

Is should also be noted that dramatic changes to the UI will not happen. IE the moving of the tabs to the top or the addition of tabs. So please keep that in mind if you choose to post an idea.

Suggestions should be kept to practile improvements that are witin the realm of feasablity for Aaron to do.

As an example of a simple yet extremely useful idea, click on the attachment above.

[Atrocities]

Improve the transfer cargo window

The current system lists out each individual troop and doen't group them together. This makes transfering of troops a major nightmare. A real click fest.

See attachment for more details.

[Atrocities]

Here is an idea for improving at a glance the systems you have control over. Take a look at the attached image to see what I mean.

[Phoenix-D]

AT: get the patches. The troop thing already has a condensed view option. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif The third would be already in-game, if the buttons above the quadrant map worked right..

[Atrocities]

I can't play the game after installing the 1.13 patch. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif The game just locks up after turn 2 on any new or saved game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

I have to alt Ctrl Del out of it and then close it down. Its very frustrating. Makes me want to say *uck this and unistall it and wait until a stable version can be cleanly installed.

I didn't see the troop condensed view option. When I get the damn game to work again I will look for it. Thanks Phoenix.

[Slick]

General comment: I really think MM should listen to fans' request for UI improvements because, no matter how "good" the game is, SE5 really loses its fun due to the UI. I just don't enjoy playing it, although I want to. The crappy UI just ruins the experience for me; it's too much work, too inefficient and aggrevating.

Specific recommendations:

Ship design:
- add "sensor range" & "sensor level" to both the create design screen and view design screen.
- allow installing any researched level of a component, not just the latest.

System view:
- add "system attributes" where there is only 1 entry per known system with all system-wide abilities shown

In various queues:
- allow drag/drop to reorder lists
- as a minimum, have "move to top", "move to bottom", "move up", "move down"

In research queue:
- add button that adjusts research percentage to "next # of turns" so that I can click to cycle a research project to finish in 0.1, 0.2, 0.3, etc. turns; or whatever is possible. This would be nice since I bet everyone is already tweaking the research percentage to get these anyway.
- for overlapping techs (like engines) add toggle option to either "upgrade to next level of same" or "upgrade to next higher component" so (for engines) I could decide to upgrade ion engines to higher levels of ion engines OR to jacketed photon engines based on this toggle. This may require restructuring the various files and/or adding another field to link them to the same family like in SE4.

In retrofit screen:
- allow retrofitting multiple ships at a time.

In Log screen:
- or better yet, a hotkey for: "take me to the location of the next log event and pop a small window telling me what happened there" That way, I don't have to keep coming back to the Log screen. I can just step thru the events, stopping as desired to take action at any/all locations.


In the help screen:
- show all versions of components, facilities, mounts, vehicle sizes, etc. so that the player can see how research is affecting higher levels and if higher levels are worth continued research. Make this easily viewable from the Designs screen and the construction queue screen for the purpose of upgrading.


In the cargo transfer screen:
- highlight the existing value so that I can just overwrite the existing number to be transferred. Having to backspace to delete the "1" is just insane.

In input dialogs for naming things:
- make the CAPS LOCK key work.
- make the ENTER key work



I have to eat dinner now. I'll add more later.

[Noble713]

Fleets
If you select a fleet and right-click to bring up its report, it will display the attack/defense formations, list all the ships, and display TF information on a sub-tab, and the warp transit order on a sub-tab. You can't change any of this stuff without leaving the Fleet Report. I shouldn't have to go to the Fleet Transfer Screen to change the Task Force formations and strategies for a single fleet I'm looking at already.

Fleet Report
Task Forces Tab:
-Clicking on the attack/defense formations and strategies should open up a drop-down box so you can change them.
-Double-clicking on the Task Force Name should allow you to edit it.
Warp Transit Order Tab:
-Add "Move up" and "Move down" buttons so players can edit the fleet's transit order directly.

Fleet Transfer Screen:
-Should be able to change Fleet/Task Force names by double-clicking on the text.
-Instead of the buttons along the bottom, should be able to change strategies and formations by clicking on them, opening up a drop-down box.
-Double clicking on ships should add them to/remove them from currently-selected task force.

[Atrocities]

General comment: I really think MM should listen to fans' request for UI improvements because, no matter how "good" the game is, SE5 really loses its fun due to the UI. I just don't enjoy playing it, although I want to. The crappy UI just ruins the experience for me; it's too much work, too inefficient and aggrevating.



I agree 100%

[Sivran]

Just four words: Show all the buttons.

What was so wrong with the two rows of buttons in SE4? Show them all, light up the ones that have a use in the current context. Simple, and effective.

[AstralWanderer]

Mouse Cursor
Fix the lag - this makes every flaw in SEV's UI far less tolerable and is the biggest current problem IMHO.

Window Focus
SEV doesn't appear to have any concept of an "active" window to determine where a keyboard command should apply (resulting in the hilarious situation of not being able to use the letter "T" in ship design names during the tutorial since this just brings up/closes the tutorial window). This means that pressing Esc may close a background window (e.g. in Ship Design when reviewing component details).

If having an active window is too big a change for SEV's UI, then each one needs to have unique keyboard shortcuts (especially for common buttons like Close or Cancel).

Better Use of Screen Space
SEV's use of screen real estate is inefficient making it harder to use with lower resolution screens. One specific problem is with the unit display where the headings (in gold) take up as much space as the information field. It should be possible to reduce the space taken by 1/3 just by changing this format (i.e. to something like Heading: Details).

More (and Consistent) Keyboard Shortcuts
SEV only seems to offer keyboard shortcuts for the top-level commands - these need to be expanded to other areas also. In particular it should be possible to use the cursor keys: to select a square in the Ship Design window; to select a hex/planet/ship (depending on the command chosen) in the System Display window; to select a location or ship (depending on the command chosen) in the Combat windows.Better Positioning of Command Buttons
Having the unit command buttons at the bottom right is just about the worst place possible for efficient utilisation, in terms of minimising mouse movement. A better option would be a floating window which would appear alongside a selected unit which would only contain applicable buttons (reducing wasted space).

Filter/Display Indicator and Selection
SEV needs to indicate when it is possible to right-click on a heading to access filters or displays (adding a special icon which provides left-click access would be the simplest method).

It should then also be possible to select/combine multiple entries - e.g. being able to list engines and weapons in the Ship Components window or being able to display construction queues along with existing facilities in the Colony listing (this is one feature I especially want to be able to quickly determine where I can build new facilities).

Map and 3D Control
Having the map rotate when the cursor is at the left/right hand margins of the screen is counter-intuitive and inconsistent - the map should move left or right just as it moves up or down. Rotation should then be done via right-click drag as with Homeworld. It should also be possible to center the display on any item (e.g. by Ctrl-clicking on it).

One particularly interesting option could be to switch viewpoint to that of a selected unit when in tactical combat mode - this would make it a more immersive experience though it could also more clearly highlight the lack of "true" 3D currently (everything being on the same plane).

Ability to View Old Components
Previous versions of SE allowed you to view previous versions of weapons and other components or facilities (and even use them) making it possible to check the exact benefits of a new generation. This needs to be restored to SEV.

[Suicide Junkie]

...a floating window which would appear alongside a selected unit which would only contain applicable buttons (reducing wasted space)
Do you know about the right click order menu? Select a unit, then right click (on the destination in case of remote actions) and select from the menu.

Also, try turning off the alpha sort (and use KwokStock if you aren't already). Instead of "Ion engines" being completely separate from "Quantum", things will look much more like a hardware catalog, and you won't even need the filters.

[AstralWanderer]

Suicide Junkie said:
Do you know about the right click order menu? Select a unit, then right click (on the destination in case of remote actions) and select from the menu.

Yes I do know - and as you are doubtless aware this menu is very large since it includes options relating to the system and planet (if applicable). It should be possible to left-click on a unit, move the cursor no more than 1-2cm onscreen before left-clicking on an order before selecting a destination (if necessary).

A radial menu (as used in Neverwinter Nights) would make a good choice here since (cascading) submenus could be handled quite easily.

[Suicide Junkie]

That there would be quite nice.
Changing the right click menu to a radial thing. Cargo orders to the right, move/attack at the top. Reports on the left. Stellar manip, retrofits, and miscellaneous at the bottom.

[Yimboli]

AstralWanderer said:
A radial menu (as used in Neverwinter Nights) would make a good choice here since (cascading) submenus could be handled quite easily.



Quite nice indeed. It seems too high of an expectation for a post-release game. My bet is we never see a design change to the right click menu. Plus I think we have bigger fish to fry.

[Wenin]

Atrocities said:
Here is an idea for improving at a glance the systems you have control over. Take a look at the attached image to see what I mean.



I noticed a condense check mark box at the bottom of the transfer screen to group items together.

[Baal]

Something that keeps me using shortcuts instead of the right click menu is that the right click menu is a mile long. Maybe have an options menu that lets you select the options you want to see in the right click menu a weed out the ones that you rarely/never use. This would make right clicking useful for me.

[bearclaw]

Ship Design screen not showing enough at a time
I have my screen set at a high resolution but still I can only see 5-6 components at a time. And the Mounts barely have enough space for all the options. What about mount-heavy mods? You'd have to scroll through a large list to find what you are looking for. And the right hand side of the ship design screen is difficult too. Instead of having such large 'buttons' for the items of the right, I think making them much smaller and taking up a much more compact space would allow for more room on the left hand side.

Perhaps if the right-hand side could be made smaller enough, then the mounts/components section could be in 2 rows, showing twice as many components/mounts.

The ship layout/component placement: I love that. Even though it only has a limited effect on your ships in the game (ie: decks don't matter), I love being able to design them as if they do. Engineering Deck, Command Deck, Armoury Deck.

[Suicide Junkie]

The design window is independent of screen rez. And the slot layout system is inherently bulky.
It would be nice to get more list space on high rez settings.

[dmm]

Most-needed UI fixes, IMHO, in order of importance:

#1: show what a planet is building in the info that first comes up when you click on a planet. Instead of "click, q, Esc" or "click, right-click, Esc" you should just have "click."

#2: a hotkey for facilities.

#3: a hotkey for cargo (planets or ships)

[Actually, I much prefer SEIV's 2D top-down UI (although I do like SEV's hexagon grid better than SEIV's square grid). I'd make THAT my #1, except I know that ain't gonna happen.]

[dmm]

#4: a way to dismiss Log items as you deal with them (along with a filter to show only non-dismissed items).

[dmm]

#5: an easy way to change decks in Ship Design screen (e.g., up/down arrows or PageUp/Down or 1/2/3) while you are "holding" a component on your cursor.

[Captain Kwok]

You can play top-down in SE:V too... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Raapys]

Problem with SE V's top-down is the fact that half the screen is actually unused when you zoom that far out. I play near-top-down( i.e. zoomed out until the top and bottom of the sector just fits in my view), can't understand how anyone would want to play with the 'standard' setting new games start with O_O

[dmm]

BTW, I like the new ship design method, even though it does take more time. It feels more realistic (LOL at goofy self). I only wish it were more functional as far as gameplay (e.g., weapon arcs, shield arcs, engine placement affects directional acceleration). Nothing too too complicated, though, lest it bring the CPU to its knees.

[dmm]

Captain Kwok said: You can play top-down in SE:V too... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif


Yeah, but only if you zoom out so far that everything is tiny. Plus the flags are "on edge" and unviewable. Unless you know something that I don't (90% possibility).

[Spectarofdeath]

Give me back SEIV with 3d combat and update graphics!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Atrocities]

<Malfador> So yes, we'll get to them. But bugs come first. It usually goes, bugs, UI improvements, modding requests, feature additions.



http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Good news.

[AMF]

Most of ther main screen UI problems could be fixed by SIMPLY allowing the player to move the orders, galaxy, and other windows and buttons around. I can't understand why we can drag all the other windows (ship design, etc) around the screen, but not the ones on the main screen. I find it maddening.

[Atrocities]

I wish I could move all the buttons. In Tribes the UI was completely customizable in game with the HUD mover. A novel idea that like the game is doomed to the dungeons of the unknown and long forgotten games.

[Atrocities]

I really would have loved to have seen a true 3d Quadrant map too. One like they had in MOO3 where you could move it around to view it from any angle. Oh well.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Atrocities said:
I really would have loved to have seen a true 3d Quadrant map too.



You pulled the thought right out of my head!

[Baal]

While it would be pretty a 3d quadrant map would be for looks only. It wouldn't add anymore playablility in my opinion. It's general purpose is to select a system in order to do things in the system; that shouldn't be any harder than it needs to be.

[Kana]

Atrocities said:
I really would have loved to have seen a true 3d Quadrant map too. One like they had in MOO3 where you could move it around to view it from any angle. Oh well.



They have this in Sword of the Stars, and while it is unique and intersting at first...it eventually becomes tedious, and basically difficult to use. Talk about UI clutter and big flag problems, you have to turn it around lots of different ways to get the info you want, and be able to navigate where you would like to.

[reverend]

I have only played the demo, since I was waiting for this game a long time. SEIV was on my PC a long time, I just kept coming back to it.

After playing the demo, I don't think I'll buy SEV. The UI is two steps back from SEIV. Most points have already been made in this thread, I might just add that a mouse usually has THREE buttons one could use. For rotating, quick-menus, default commands (middle click always move/attack for example)...

A complex game like SEV need a simple UI. This simply is not the case. I sincerely hope that there will be an update or at least a much better approach in SEVI.

I understand that Maldafor is basically a one-man company developing SEV, but even then, basic rules of UI design apply, and I can't understand that the UI, as it is, got approved in the beta.

[frightlever]

reverend said:
I understand that Maldafor is basically a one-man company developing SEV, but even then, basic rules of UI design apply, and I can't understand that the UI, as it is, got approved in the beta.



May God have mercy on your soul...

[Suicide Junkie]

It is quite reasonable that you would be unable to understand something that is completely untrue.

Things that are untrue don't have to make sense, after all.

[reverend]

Suicide Junkie said:
It is quite reasonable that you would be unable to understand something that is completely untrue.

Things that are untrue don't have to make sense, after all.



I apologise if I offended the beta testers. I just came to this thread after trying out the demo, still a bit disappointed.

But the UI IS in the game. And it really, really could use some changes.

I liked SEIV. I was looking forward to SEV. But for 45 Euros I expect more than an interface that is worse than the one before.

[Atrocities]

frightlever said:

I understand that Maldafor is basically a one-man company developing SEV, but even then, basic rules of UI design apply, and I can't understand that the UI, as it is, got approved in the beta.



I don't to if I should laugh at this comment or simply shake my head in disbelief at its lack of informed presumption.

The beta testers have and had absolutely no say in what is or isn't a part of SE V. To think that we did is just grossly ill informed speculation at best.

The beta testers made recommendations regarding the UI and if you had attended the CHAT yestarday you would know that the focus of the beta and indeed all asserted current efforts to date have been directed at bug fixes. Then will come UI improvements.

Beta testers are just bug finders and game testers, we do not in any way hold positions of influence over the developer and his product.

[reverend]

Atrocities said:
Beta testers are just bug finders and game testers, we do not in any way hold positions of influence over the developer and his product.



In my experience, software testing specifically includes usability testing.

Perhaps I wouldn't be as disappointed if I hadn't played SEIV and expected a UI that was actually tailored to simplify the gameplay.

Like I said, I didn't mean to offend the beta testers.

If they had concerns about the UI, good then. In this case, Malfador should have listened better. Still doesn't make the problem go away, unfortunately. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

There were many very good suggestions in this thread. I will simply wait how many of them are actually implemented in future patches before I think about buying. In the meantime, back to Dominions 3 for me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Baron Munchausen]

We did complain about the UI. Then, since he wasn't gonna fix it tomorrow, we started trying to play the game "as is" and other bugs cropped up. Since he was already committed to the UI design he went for the new bugs we noticed and conveniently 'forgot' about the UI complaints. As testing progressed we occasionally grumbled again, but once again went on to other concerns and since he wanted to stick with the UI he had developed he interpreted this continued cooperation as tacit acceptance of the UI. In order to get him to change it we'd have had to stage a 'sit down' strike and refused any further testing until the UI was changed.

The massive outcry after release finally seems to have broken through his preconceptions about his UI design, but once again he is very busy with other bugs and unless there is a lot of push devoted specifically to UI I fully expect it will 'slip' again in favor of other bugs.

[Phoenix-D]

Yeah, MM's patch cycle seems to be..rather odd. Note the comment in the chat about working from the top of the email stack to the bottom..

[AMF]

"Rather odd"? Yeesh kableesh. Rather backwards is more like it.

Someone really needs to ask him to concentrate on the UI. I mean, it's what will, in the end, prevent the game from suceeding in the overall marketplace. I sent him three emails right when the game first came out, but I haven't seen any of my concerns addressed in the patches. Not that I am parochial about it, but my concerns were the same ones everyone else mentioned, and that everyone still does even today. But if he is "working from the top of the pile not the bottom" then he's just, with all due respect, doing things totally b@ss-ackwards. The UI is what will doom the game to be the last in the series. It would be a pity if that happened simply because the way MM fixes things is poorly organized.

So, can I urge people to pile on the emails to Aaron about fixing the UI? Please? I really want this game to suceed, as, I think, we all do. But the UI has to be fixed for that to happen.

Just my two cents.

[Slick]

Saying that he works from the top of the pile will just encourage people to keep submitting their gripes over and over again to keep them on the top. What a strange way to do business. Maybe a prioritizing system? Maybe?

[Raapys]

Maybe a forum sticky.

[Atrocities]

Ya that top of the pile thing kinda threw me for a loop too. I thought it to be kind of a bad policy myself. If you don't go through the emails you have gotten, and only focus on the new ones, you are going to mis all of the valuable stuff previously submitted and that might include some significant bugs thus prolong the time it would take to address said bugs.

[Atrocities]

I wonder if Aaron has been infected by the George Lucas bug? Its symptoms include the onset of decreased willingness to take suggestions, a narrowing of ones perspective when it comes to accepting help, and the onset of a strong desire to ignor common sense in favor of adopting a backwards approach to problem resolution.

While Lucas was far beyond ever being able to be cured, perhaps there still might be time to save Aaron. Quick, everyone stop emailing Aaron your bug reports. Hold them in reserve until the ones that have been emailed to him have been cleared from his in box and addressed. Hopefully out of shier boardom he will look at the older emails and realize that they contain some seriously good bug reports and game helping suggestions.

Once they are acted upon, then swamp him agian.

[dmm]

Maybe he sorts his email with the oldest emails on top?

[AstralWanderer]

Maybe it's all the spam he gets. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Expect the next patch to add a v1agr&a tech tree...

[Ragnarok]

AstralWanderer said:
Maybe it's all the spam he gets. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Expect the next patch to add a v1agr&a tech tree...



Is that the tech tree that increases the size of your ship hulls by 30%?

For shame. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Back on topic...Someday when I get some free time I plan on modifying a lot of the graphics in SEV. Obviously I can't edit the placement and so forth but I can edit quite a few of the files to modify the look of SEV.

[DingBat]

I think my main observation about the UI is the COMPLETE lack of any sort of thought about user scenarios and goals.

Example: I send a fleet into combat. Some of it's ships are damaged. I'd like to send those ships back to a yard to get repaired.

Have you counted how many clicks you need to do this? First you have to find the fleet, click on it, right click to get the properties, find the ships that are damaged, then click on the fleet management button, select the fleet, select the ships to remove, click remove from fleet, then find those ships and have them go back to a yard for repair.

It's all very logical and all the buttons are there, but it turns a common housekeeping task into an unbelievably boring exercise.

This is just one example, there are many others. The developer clearly did not bother to take any time to think about what the players are likely going to be doing frequently and try to tune the UI to make those activities easy.

I'm sure it was the same in SEIV. Maybe I was more patient back then. I'm bitterly disappointed with this game and wish I could get my money refunded.

[Slick]

Here's one. With all the bugs and crashes still in the game, one is forced to "save every turn" so as to protect oneself from losing time played. It currently takes 3 clicks to delete each saved game and they can only be deleted one at a time. How about enabling shift-click in lists to select a block so I can delete all those saved games in one shot? apply to other lists to enable group commands applied to lists.

[Slick]

This is not a UI issue per se, but the game must be modified to allow turn processing with the game minimized. Using SE4 as a guide, and assuming that SE5 will take longer to process turns due to more complexity, why not allow minimizing the game so players can do other things during turn processing such as *ahem* complaining about the UI here.

[Suicide Junkie]

I suggest using windows itself to delete the savegames. Simple and straightforward.

As alternatives to minimizing, I suggest a small 300x100 pixel or so window containing just the progress bar.
Also, a tray icon with the three progress bars climbing pixel by pixel would be good too.

[Slick]

SJ, I know your heart is in the right place, but UI workarounds are the problem, not the solution. Having to do extra clicks or leave the game to delete savegames is the whole point of this thread. It is the very thing that frustrates the players and sucks the fun out of the game. I guess having a workaround is better than no workaround, though.

[Suicide Junkie]

True. I'm kind of seeing it from the multiplayer PoV, where you just load SE, play and then exit again until next turn is available.

[frightlever]

Slick why not just autosave every turn? The game will keep the last ten turns processed as autosaves that way.

[Slick]

That's what I'm talking about. I didn't actually say "auto" save, but with manual save, it's not an issue due to being able to overwrite the last game.

[Docwho]

Under Ship design. A filter for ship size. (I.E. 100kt to 2500kt in drop down buttons that can be moddifed. And/Or by clase name.)

So that we could better pull up the type of ship we want.

[Suicide Junkie]

Filters would be far too click intensive... why would you want to use them?

Just turn off the stupid alpha sorting, and the ships all fall in order of size (same as in the data files)


Same thing applies to components. Turn off the alpha sorting, and you'll have a nice catalog of components, grouped by similar uses.
This is even more pronounced in mods which intentionally arrange the datafiles in a better way.

[frightlever]

Slick, I mean turn on the autosave option so it'll automatically overwrite the oldest save. No need to delete any saves then. Other than the autosaves I'll only keep one save for when I'm about to launch a risky attack (wimpy huh?) or try something stupid. But yeah I know what you mean. There are standard UI conventions and the ctrl-click to select multiple files is one of them.

[Slick]

Thanks. I had been deleting them before there were 10 because I thought the number would just get too big.

[Intimidator]

Slick said:
This is not a UI issue per se, but the game must be modified to allow turn processing with the game minimized. Using SE4 as a guide, and assuming that SE5 will take longer to process turns due to more complexity, why not allow minimizing the game so players can do other things during turn processing such as *ahem* complaining about the UI here.






Indeed, I for myself like the long waiting time between turns................ http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I finished 3 books the last 2 weeks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif