SE5 gets some... "recognition"

[Ed Kolis]

http://www.somethingawful.com/index.php?a=4235

Scroll on down about 2/3 of the way... look, if you consider SomethingAwful "mainstream", SE5 is getting some mainstream recognition, even if it's not in the least positive http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Renegade 13]

Obscurity can be better sometimes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Santiago]

"Unfortunately, you cannot strategically defeat game-crippling bugs, no matter how far along in the tech tree your research brings you."

[President_Elect_Shang]

Santiago said:
"Unfortunately, you cannot strategically defeat game-crippling bugs, no matter how far along in the tech tree your research brings you."



I feel sick... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

[frightlever]

Looks like an accurate review to me.

The metacritic summary of reviews so far:

http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/spaceempires5?q=space%20empires

The user ratings look like typical rent-a-shill comments because even the biggest fan of the game would say it's anything but a train wreck at this stage.

[DingBat]

Yup.

I had a great time with SEIV and was eagerly looking forward to SEV. The developer here has made a mind-bogglingly ill-advised move to release the game in this condition. Let's hope it's not fatal to the SE line.

[Phoenix-D]

Fright: we get that you don't like SE5. Why are you still here, again? You can be critical of a game without resorting to crap like "rent a shill". Some people have a rather higher patience than others with bugs and UI glitches. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Actually most of the critic's reviews are spot-on, with the exception of the Gamesradar one. (seriously. If your biggest SE peeve is the micromanagement, and that games take too long, you're reviewing the WRONG game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif)

Did anyone ever find out what was up with the 80% that turned into a mid-60%?

[DingBat]

Seriously, 80% is WAY too high for a game in this condition, regardless of any potential.

Is anyone here actually going to argue otherwise?

[Phoenix-D]

Not really. I'd sit it around 70-75 myself. Like I said, some places are more forgiving of bugs than others, and UI, while painful, isn't a death blow.

should point out that I haven't had more than a few of CTD bugs or other game-ending crap to deal with..that does color things a bit. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Raapys]

I've not really had any game-breaking events. If it wasn't because of the combat slowdowns in turn processing with the latest patch, I'd probably give it about 75-80% with the Balance mod right now: the remaining issues for me are the UI, AI and fog of war issues.

However, as long as the slowdowns remains I really can't get myself to sit down through the long waits, so I end up playing something else most of the time. Hoping for a quick fix from Aaron.

[Fyron]

DingBat said:
Let's hope it's not fatal to the SE line.

SE didn't die when SE4 was released early in a mind-bogglingly buggy state, though it had no retail market to contend with...

[President_Elect_Shang]

Imperator Fyron said:
SE didn't die when SE4 was released early in a mind-bogglingly buggy state



Here, here! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[Yimboli]

Phoenix-D said:
Fright: we get that you don't like SE5. Why are you still here, again? You can be critical of a game without resorting to crap like "rent a shill".



I get the impression that you're calling him a troll, but at the same time I don't think it's warranted.


Phoenix-D said:
Some people have a rather higher patience than others with bugs and UI glitches. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



You're not the only poster on this forum with that mentality. I feel, however, that more people (and I do not believe this microcosm to be representative of the space 4x buyer base) will fall into your lower patience threshold than we'd like to admit. I'm pretty confident in that assertion. I also think that Aaron needs to make games that tailor to more people than those of us that believe in the potential of the game, but I'm kinda going out on a limb to say so with my limited experience. I think releasing a solid game would do wonders for MM.

[Phoenix-D]

Actually I was referring to the two user reviews he was complaining about, not myself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif I'd knock off about 15 points between the UI and the bugs..

[pujal]

Ok we get it. 1.13 is playable though and a new patch is due out in less then 2 weeks, why are these threads still alive?

[Atrocities]

DingBat said:

Yup.

I had a great time with SEIV and was eagerly looking forward to SEV. The developer here has made a mind-bogglingly ill-advised move to release the game in this condition. Let's hope it's not fatal to the SE line.



Ya ok, and of course you know that the developer is one man working at home with no income to support his efforts right? You will excuse me for passing judgement upon your opinion in that I think, as is my opinion, that given what Aaron had to work with, he did make a very fine game.

[DingBat]

What does being a one man show have to do with waiting until a game is stable before releasing it?

You know, I actually have no problem with someone making a business decision to release a poor quality product. What I do have a problem with is not informing the consumer that they are taking a chance when purchasing said product. Aaron made a business decision. Unfortunately, he withheld information that would have allowed me to make an informed consumer decision.

Being a one person shop has nothing to do with quality. I would, instead, observe that being a one person shop should, perhaps, reign in the design a bit. I would have preferred fewer, but completed, features to the current plethora of half-completed features. Rather than issue patches after release, he could have released new upgrades with those missing features.

As I said, I think it was an ill-advised move to release the game in this condition. The true believers will obviously stick with the game, whatever the condition. I just hope that stalwart group doesn't find itself shrinking with each release.

[Combat Wombat]

DingBat said:

What does being a one man show have to do with waiting until a game is stable before releasing it?

You know, I actually have no problem with someone making a business decision to release a poor quality product. What I do have a problem with is not informing the consumer that they are taking a chance when purchasing said product. Aaron made a business decision. Unfortunately, he withheld information that would have allowed me to make an informed consumer decision.

Being a one person shop has nothing to do with quality. I would, instead, observe that being a one person shop should, perhaps, reign in the design a bit. I would have preferred fewer, but completed, features to the current plethora of half-completed features. Rather than issue patches after release, he could have released new upgrades with those missing features.

As I said, I think it was an ill-advised move to release the game in this condition. The true believers will obviously stick with the game, whatever the condition. I just hope that stalwart group doesn't find itself shrinking with each release.



There was the demo for one thing... The there was all the talk of bugs by people playing the demo even if you didn't play it. Then there are reviews. Many ways for you to find out about a product before you purchase it.

[Xrati]

With all the bad reviews and a "House Divided" here on this site. We will just have to wait to see if poor sales forces SF to pull the product. SF's in business to make money. Lost revenue to poor sales due to bad reviews can be enough to kill the product. Keep in mind that not all the customers frequent this site and don't have the patience to wait for patches. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Phoenix-D]

Have you looked at SFI's back-catalog? Compared to most of those games even 1.00 SE5 is a perfect little gem. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Xrati]

Maybe that's why people stay here at this site, better games? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

[Phoenix-D]

SFI's definitely an odd publisher, and I'm really not sure what MM got out of going to them. I haven't seen SE5 on the shelves at all, for example..

[Baal]

I've seen it at The EB games just down the street from me.

[Fyron]

I've seen it at EB Games too.

[Atrocities]

DingBat I will bet money that you never even bought the game.


Edit:
I posted something that I would not normally have posted because I became angry at the comments of another poster. I had no call to call that poster ignorate or otherwise.

[capnq]

Phoenix-D said: SFI's definitely an odd publisher, and I'm really not sure what MM got out of going to them.

Enough money to continue development (according to at least one interview).

Speaking of odd, can anybody explain to me why attempting to load that Metacritic site would cause a soft reboot?

[Atrocities]

Any time a web site causes a soft reboot means web site bad!

[DingBat]

Er, wow. Such hostility. Nice.

I suppose it's not that surprising that a guy with 13k posts on a forum is going to be a fanboi, but you might want to consider toning it down, just a tad.

I've purchased plenty of games lately that have worked quite well out of the box. I write software for a living and have actually witnessed releases that are virtually defect free. You clearly have no experience in this area. But that's not the point.

But, here are a couple of interesting points:

1. What does the record of other developers who release shoddy games have to do with MM? Why do you even compare them?

2. Why do you feel compelled to defend MM in the first place? How would you have suffered if the release of SEV had been postponed until it was more stable? Your supposition that releasing it early has been a good thing because it flushes out bug reports is truly bizarre. What are beta testers for?

3. I've seen many product releases in my day. Releasing a product too soon, in an unstable condition, is almost never a good idea. It's hard to measure the impact on customers, which is why a lot of companies do it, but it does affect future sales and it is difficult to fix.

4. You seem to feel that pointing out these things is akin to an attack on the game and the developer. Not true. People don't raise issues with games they don't care about. They raise issues with games they want to play. SEV is that game, but right now, it's broken for me. Again, I'm not exactly sure why you've appointed yourself defender of the faith here. I'm sure the developer is a big boy and can defend himself.

5. Your comments on "dilibrate" ignorance and a kick ban policy are truly stunning. How old are you?

Look, there's a simple way never to have to hear anything negative about a game you like:

a. Encourage the developer to release the game in good condition.
b. Don't read game forums.

Otherwise, you're out of luck. Who's being clueless now. Perhaps you can kick ban yourself.

Have a nice day.

[Captain Kwok]

Atrocities - I think your response is far out of line with what Dingbat has actually posted...

[Fyron]

...especially since a lot of what Dingbat posted was accurate and correct.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Atrocities has probably just had a short day; especially since this is out of character for him.

[Atrocities]

I was out of line with my previous post. I had not right to attack his opinion. I have removed the post and offer an apology. My hostility was a gut knee jerk response and not one that I am proud of.


DingBat said:

Er, wow. Such hostility. Nice.

I suppose it's not that surprising that a guy with 13k posts on a forum is going to be a fanboi, but you might want to consider toning it down, just a tad.

I've purchased plenty of games lately that have worked quite well out of the box. I write software for a living and have actually witnessed releases that are virtually defect free. You clearly have no experience in this area. But that's not the point.

But, here are a couple of interesting points:

1. What does the record of other developers who release shoddy games have to do with MM? Why do you even compare them?

2. Why do you feel compelled to defend MM in the first place? How would you have suffered if the release of SEV had been postponed until it was more stable? Your supposition that releasing it early has been a good thing because it flushes out bug reports is truly bizarre. What are beta testers for?

3. I've seen many product releases in my day. Releasing a product too soon, in an unstable condition, is almost never a good idea. It's hard to measure the impact on customers, which is why a lot of companies do it, but it does affect future sales and it is difficult to fix.

4. You seem to feel that pointing out these things is akin to an attack on the game and the developer. Not true. People don't raise issues with games they don't care about. They raise issues with games they want to play. SEV is that game, but right now, it's broken for me. Again, I'm not exactly sure why you've appointed yourself defender of the faith here. I'm sure the developer is a big boy and can defend himself.

5. Your comments on "dilibrate" ignorance and a kick ban policy are truly stunning. How old are you?

Look, there's a simple way never to have to hear anything negative about a game you like:

a. Encourage the developer to release the game in good condition.
b. Don't read game forums.

Otherwise, you're out of luck. Who's being clueless now. Perhaps you can kick ban yourself.

Have a nice day.



I am going to stand by my comment that I believe that you never bought the game. And I don't want to be baited into a debate over our differing points of view.

However you do ask some good questions and do promote one to think a bit, never the less, I have already acted rudely enough for one day and don't want to repeat that behavior. So while your questions are valid, I don't want to address them today. Again I was out of line with my post and do apologize for my rudeness.

[DingBat]

I don't really enjoy being called a thief, but I agree we should both step back a bit. If you're interested, I've attached a screen shot of my steam console.

But I do accept your apology.

[Atrocities]

Well there go, making a jerk out of me in classic style. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif It was not my intention to make you think I was calling you a thief. I have just become very warry of people who post comments about the game. A significant number of them have only played the beta or haven't played the game at all and I am sorry to say that I wrongfully grouped you with them.

Like I said, your comments were valid and I had no reason to spout off like I did. I am the jerk here not you. Please accept my sincere apology. If you don't I will understand.

[Caduceus]

We'll set up the spanking machine for Atrocities later.

We're all a bit miffed and puzzled as to why SE:V was released in the condition that it was. But, on the upside, several patches later, many things have been fixed.

[Demorve]

I have a question I would like to ask, but before I do I want to make it known that I haven't bought the game yet because it hasn't arrived at any stores where I live and I will not buy it using steam and I already have Starfury so I won't be buying it from Strategy First.

I have read a lot of people trying to justify SEV being released in an unfinished state by saying that SEIV was released in a similar state (at least that's my take on it). My question is if both games were released with a lot of bugs then why did SEIV generally produce higher review ratings than what SEV did? Example Gamespot gave SEIV an 81 and only gave SEV a 66. I think there might be something wrong with SEV that goes beyond the bugs and bad UI, I could be wrong and people are less tolerant of bugs than they were 6 years ago.

I will eventually purchase the game when it reaches the stores in my area knowing that there are a lot of dedicated and talented people creating mods and fixes for this game.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I suggest getting it from ebGames. It comes with SE4 free, which did me no good since I already have SE4, and StarFury, and SE3, and SE2… Ah poop! I play this game WAY to much. At least they dropped it off at my door which was better than running out to the store. As for the differences in reviews I haven’t seen the article for SE4 you mention but some to things to consider are:
1. SE4 was not mass marketed to the shelves so it drew less fire at release time.
2. Since it drew less fire the review you mention may not have been written until after several patches had been released.
3. SE4 did not have to contend with 3D, it is 2D.
4. SE4 was not “real time” combat, it was turn based.
5. To me SE4 was more of an evolution of SE3. SE5 is more like a new game, especially when you get under the hood and start trying to mod this beast!

Just food for thought. As I remember it when SE4 came out I couldn’t even get it to run. I had to email Aaron with my system specs for help.

Edited in: Double POOP! I just found my copy of SE1! What kind of a sick-o am I?

[Phoenix-D]

Make sure you weren't reading a review of SE4 Gold, for one.

For two, SE4 was just as buggy/weird, but its bugs were a bit different. Less crashing, more game-breaking: ground combat continuing after a victory, dumb AI, losing value when looking at the Empire Report screen, stuff like that.

SE5 shouldn't have been released when it was, but I'm still happy I got my hands on it then. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Fyron]

Demorve said:
I have read a lot of people trying to justify SEV being released in an unfinished state by saying that SEIV was released in a similar state...

It wasn't justification, so much as just saying that MM has a history of releasing early. It was annoying then, annoying now.

[Atrocities]

Someone should have asked Aaron why he chose to allow SFI to release the game early knowing that this would be the response. Hell I would enjoy knowning why the game was released in the state that it was released in. I think we would all be a bit less disenfranchised if we knew the reason behind the decision. But then again its really none of our business. But still it would be nice to know.

[neofit]

Aren't all games released early for one simple reason: money? No more money to fund development, need a cash infusion asap for whatever reason. The usual "budget, quality, time - choose two" paradigm, and some can manage the three better than others.

[Fyron]

AT: Do you have any evidence that SF1st forced a release? It was my understanding that Aaron Hall chose to release it then...

[frightlever]

DingBat said:
If you're interested, I've attached a screen shot of my steam console.



Good call on Defcon.


As for my rent-a-shill comments - I stand by them. Who posts a review virtually on release day saying SE5 is the best game ever? Who defends a comment like that?

And I'm still here because I'm a longtime fan of Space Empires that considers SE5 unplayable and I'll probably stick around here responding to the stupidity I witness until the game gets fixed enough that I can eff off and play it. So yeah, there's an incentive to fix the bugs.

And I still see nothing but apologist propaganda from Atrocities and Fyron. Hey, fair enough maybe the multiplayer doesn't suffer from the same problems the SP does. Then yesterday I popped into a thread proposing workarounds for the broken multiplayer. And there's an (almost?) empty SE5 opponents seeking opponents sub-forum which is a testimony to that end of the game in itself.

And I don't care if Aaron is a club-footed orphan coding in braille - the transaction is simple. I give him money, he gives me a game. If this is a hobby for him then stick the project on sourceforge and let the community fix it. If he's trying to make a living, just like the rest of us, then don't do shoddy work.

EDIT: I mean really some people seem to forget that you can go into EB and pick this product up off the shelves (in the far unlit corner of the store furthest from the door, with the rest of the PC games) take it to the counter and pay for it. When you get it home are you going to be reassured that it'll get fixed in time if you've no knowledge of the previous games or are you going to throw it in the pile of games you wished you'd waited for a review for. And that's besides the point that one of those metacritic reviews (a site I only ever visited because it's used to rate the games on Steam - check out the Steampowered forums to see what I mean about truly uninformed opinions of the game! They're not kind.)is in the 80s, bizarrely.

Who's even struggling on with 1.13? I can hack the combat time limit, ignore the broken boarding and put up with the UI (which I AM actually getting used to. That's not even much of a concern for me now - the TZN? tiny flag mod helps a lot.) but am I playing a fun game? No.

[Combat Wombat]

Holy [censored] I am so tired of people. Yes SE5 was released in a bad condition. Currently I don't play the game outside of modding so I am ready for the day SE5 is playalbe for me.

Please shut up, we know SE5 was released in a crap condition. No one made you buy it the way it is, you could have waited for patches. Don't tell me you didn't think the game would be like it is after the demo. If you bought the game without playing the demo or reading reviews you are a moron. It was quite clear SE5 would be a bugfest on release. Please stop turning threads into these complaining sessions.

'nuff said

[Xrati]

Ahhhhh! Sometimes people just need to "vent!" If it helps them move on, then let it be and enjoy the reading!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

frightlever said:
…I'll probably stick around here responding to the stupidity I witness until the game gets fixed enough that I can eff off and play it...



This is a great line, so what you are telling me is that you came here to blast the bugs and will leave when the game is fixed. And that is somehow equal to saying: “I came here to attack people and vent my frustration over having spent my money on a game I don’t like and Atrocities and Fyron are the targets I picked.” Because that’s what I’m seeing!
Besides crying here is going to fix the bugs how? You think I have a direct line to Aaron? Here let me pick up the Hall Phone… <ring>…<ring>….

Am I the only one that sees this? Frightlover you have been on the attack and even gone so far as calling two members here complete dicks. Now you add this to the fire?


And I still see nothing but apologist propaganda from Atrocities and Fyron.



And don’t forget the Complete Dicks (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB23&Number=466290&Forum= f23,f204,f199,f150,f59,f128,f105,f200,f201,f202&Wo rds=dicks&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=465123&Search =true&where=bodysub&Name=&daterange=1&newerval=5&n ewertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post4662 90) comment too.

And don’t defend yourself here by saying “He started it”! Atrocities wasn’t even talking to you unless you’re Dingbat too. Even then Dingbat accepted his apology! Which Atrocities made of his own free will to display his maturity, a maturity you apparently lack!


…When you get it home are you going to be reassured that it'll get fixed in time if you've no knowledge of the previous games or are you going to throw it in the pile of games you wished you'd waited for a review for…



I’m sorry!?! I didn’t know it was my fault for YOU not making an informed purchase. Obviously it is my fault since you are here “only to respond to the stupidity you witness”; to paraphrase you that is.


…but am I playing a fun game? No.



Here’s an idea you seemed to have missed, STOP PLAYING. I think it’s about time you take your show on the road! I can’t speak for the other members here but I for one am pretty tired of your insults and unprovoked attacks!

And I really don’t care if you add me to your “Poop list”!

[President_Elect_Shang]

Combat Wombat said:
...Currently I don't play the game outside of modding so I am ready for the day SE5 is playalbe for me. Please shut up...



Amen to that brother!

[Fyron]

frightlever said:
And I still see nothing but apologist propaganda from Atrocities and Fyron.

Get a life, kid.

[frightlever]

"And don’t forget the Complete Dicks comment too.

And don’t defend yourself here by saying “He started it”! Atrocities wasn’t even talking to you unless you’re Dingbat too. Even then Dingbat accepted his apology! Which Atrocities made of his own free will to display his maturity, a maturity you apparently lack!"

Atrocities never did anything to me personally to warrant an apology so that's a non-issue. I said he was a dick to the community. That's a personal attack on a non-personal attack. He can't help himself but you're all pussy-footing around like he has a clue. If you want to take patience lessons from obsessives then good luck to you. The fact he made a personal attack on Dingbat just shows he's as "bad" as I am. The fact he apologised shows he didn't believe what he said. I do. I have no use for people telling me this game will be fixed if we just sit back and wait.

Shang, I got no problem with you. You're pissed off with me which is fine, but you're doing the game no disservice. Atrocities and Fyron are. I'm willing to engage other people at an adult level if they're not deluding themselves.


And Fyron, the kid thing... poor... I wish... poor... go explain how all the ills of SE5 can be solved with nothing but other software and adult education classes. Bless.

EDIT: Oh. And "get a life" from the guy with 17k posts. Irony. Look it up.

[Phoenix-D]

Mostly because I'm bored, here's a short cross-section of Fyron's posts from the last week.

-answering question about ques
-saying MM picked the release date, has a history of releasing buggy games then fixing them later
-comments on Balance mod, including complaining about the stock balance
-defending Dingbat from AT's deleted comment
-where SE5 has been found comment
-comment on maximum ranges
-noting that you can't add new data-file fields
-asking people to be patient about modding docs
-request for modding feature, explanation of how modding works, event help
-complaining that SE5's save files are too large for easy MP, repeatedly
-torrent of the 2nd patch
-release of Adamant mod
-asking what features were cut, to Thorfrog
-imagined drama comments
-comments about the beta testers, including the note that he doesn't PLAY SE5 much because he's unsatisfied and the game needs work
-comments about the UI
-comments on chat timing, Steam updates
-comments about hot-keys

I didn't see any kissing up, fright. I'm inclined to think you presume anyone who doesn't agree completely with you is a fanboy.

[Yimboli]

this venting would be more productive if we weren't talking past eachother.

we all need to find a middle ground here.

[Sivran]

Ok. SE5's UI is [censored]. I haven't even played it enough to run into the bugs because of the UI. How's that for middle ground?

[Atrocities]

Imperator Fyron said:
AT: Do you have any evidence that SF1st forced a release? It was my understanding that Aaron Hall chose to release it then...



Good point Fyron. I don't. I guess forced was a bad choice of words. Prompted perhaps?

[Atrocities]

And I still see nothing but apologist propaganda from Atrocities and Fyron.



Very interesting choice of words. (I agree with Fyrons response to this comment.)

Additionaly, I make no apologies for Malfador or SFI. They knew what they were doing when they chose to do it. All I have ever tried to do is point out two simple facts. 1. That Aaron made this game on his own at his own expense with no support or help from any other developer or publisher aside from his usual outstanding team of artists that have colaborated with him in the past. All of the programing is his work. And 2. that despire being released in such a poor condition, the game will improve and that is entirely do to the feed back that Aaron recieves from the people who play the game.

I hope that this clears up any false presumptions. And if you want to flame people, go back to the MOO3 forums where you belong.

[Atrocities]

frightlever are you by chance from the old MOO3 forums? Are you here from there to do what most people did to that forum after the abysmal POS Masters Of Orion 3 was released? If so I would hope that you wouldn't.

While SE V has its flaws, it kicks the hell out of MOO3 and SFI and Malfador have done a better job supporting SE V than those vile POS bastards who developed and released MOO3 ever did for that game.

These forums here at Shrapnel are a decent place to come and post. However if all you want to do is pick on people and attack a game that you don't like, then go to the official SpaceEmpresV web site and complain there.

That is your right, but frankly hearing your incessant babble here is getting on my nerves and while I have made some rude comments recently for which I am deeply embarrassed, I will put my foot back into my mouth one more time, and extend you one last courtesy; SE V is and will be a game that shall be played for a very long time. Its really a shame that you don't see this, and one can only hope that you will eventually choose to stop playcating us with your "blame them" comments and move forward into constructive and productive posting.


EDIT: Oh. And "get a life" from the guy with 17k posts. Irony. Look it up.



I think that if you had bothered to look up any of Fyrons post you will see that he has been here over five years and that 99% of his posts have all been on topic and helpful, unlike any of your current posts!

[Azselendor]

Atrocities, you forgot the morale support of Aaron's many many customers and fans.

SE5 might be buggy, but so was SE3 and 4 when they came out. Hell, I remember the infamous SE3 patch that effectively killed the game outright, yet the fans remained. Why? Because they didn't make apologies for Aaron to disgruntled customers, they either re-installed the game or patiently waited on SE3's download page hitting "Refresh" in anticipation.

Anyone with a problem with the game right now, just be patient for the patches and report your bugs to Aaron as you encounter them.

[Atrocities]

Well said Azselendor. Well said.

[President_Elect_Shang]

frightlever said:
...The fact he apologised shows he didn't believe what he said...



This one comment alone shows your maturity. You are a child point blank! A man knows how to admit a mistake; apologies if warranted, learns and grows. And with that I am done, you can say I’m angry or whatever label makes you feel better about your actions. I stand by my words, you are a child and I am tired of your pointless prattle and uncalled for insults. Move back to the hole you came from and take your vile putrid hate with you!

[Ed Kolis]

Guys, will you quit flaming each other? Please? Especially Atrocities, you're SUPPOSED to be a moderator... is it going to come down to Mindi or somebody coming here and taking that power away from you??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

For goodness sakes Ed! Frightlever is way out of lines, twice now! You are asking what it’s going to take to calm things down? Well I ask what do we have to endure before something is done about him? I understand he [Atrocities] may be a moderator but defense is never unjust. It may be unjustified at times but not this one. Seriously how many people does Frightlever have to call dicks and propagandists first?

[NullAshton]

As many people as it takes before people start ignoring him?

[President_Elect_Shang]

True, you have me there! Until he labels me a dick.

[Demorve]

The review on Gamespot was done in Nov. of 2000 by Bruce Geryk so I'm pretty sure it's the original game.

Here's the link to the SEIV review: http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/spaceempires4/index.html?q=space%20empires

Maybe it's the biases of the reviewer's that's coming into play. I know that Bruce Geryk is a hardcore boardgamer and computer strategy gamer. I don't recognize the SEV reviewer.

Just for the sake of discussion what happen's if SEV never rises above mediocrity even after all the bug's are fixed? I know Aaron can create a better game and I for one would rather see him move on to SEVI than to spend a large amout of time fixing SEV if that game turns out to be no good.

[DingBat]

A couple of observations:

1. When people are disappointed in a purchase, ESPECIALLY one they were looking forward to, you are likely to hear complaints.

2. Complaining, even venting, is healthy. It releases stress.

3. Trying to argue with someone who is venting is no win situation. It's best to let the venting just go. Every forum should have a venting thread.

4. There is actually a good side to public venting. If the developer feels enough heat, then perhaps they might hold off on the next release until the proper quality level is reached. It's called a feedback loop and its the way the world works. It's neither bad or good.

My $0.02

[Yimboli]

NullAshton said:
As many people as it takes before people start ignoring him?



Exactly... whether you meant to or not I think you've agreed with EK at a very basic level. Ed said to stop flaming him. Ignoring him would require that you not flame. Can we let this thread die?



Dingbat, well put. Not the whole story, but well put.

[Atrocities]

Ed Kolis said:
Guys, will you quit flaming each other? Please? Especially Atrocities, you're SUPPOSED to be a moderator... is it going to come down to Mindi or somebody coming here and taking that power away from you??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif



Ed read my posts. I haven't flamed any one and the one time I did flame someone I apologized for it. I think the best course of action now is to simply move foward and leave this tangent in the past.

[Atrocities]

DingBat said:

A couple of observations:

1. When people are disappointed in a purchase, ESPECIALLY one they were looking forward to, you are likely to hear complaints.

2. Complaining, even venting, is healthy. It releases stress.

3. Trying to argue with someone who is venting is no win situation. It's best to let the venting just go. Every forum should have a venting thread.

4. There is actually a good side to public venting. If the developer feels enough heat, then perhaps they might hold off on the next release until the proper quality level is reached. It's called a feedback loop and its the way the world works. It's neither bad or good.

My $0.02



Very good observation. Well stated.

[Xrati]

I have the SEV Demo. I didn't like the way the game handled. I will hold off purchasing the game until it is ready. It’s a simple concept. I appreciate the ability to have a demo to make my choice with. Much better then buying the game AND THEN finding out it doesn’t’ work. If you bought the game before trying the demo then you probably shouldn’t be out there shopping in the first place. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Mindi]

Locked, locked, locked.