A new Modding challenge! Now on to Part 2!

[President_Elect_Shang]

Here is the challenge. I want to create a manner by which a ship will receive normal (read 100%) damage from certain weapons when there is at least one engine (read Movement Standard) working. Now when there isn’t a working engine I want those weapons to inflict 1,000% damage! I have been working on this for two days now; tried everything I could think of; threw everything but the kitchen sink at it. I even wrote Aaron asking him! He hasn’t had a chance to reply yet but I would still like to get input on this.

[Ragnarok-X]

Hm. This is too much of a challenge for me. Fyron will probably solve it.

[Suicide Junkie]

Step 1:
Remove all shields from your game

Step 2:
Give engines 1 point of shield generation.

Step 3:
Edit the damage types as follows;
- 10% penetration on shields.
- 0% damage to shields
- 1000% damage to armor and internals

[Phoenix-D]

That's actually fairly easy. Just attach this to your engine:

Ability 1 Type := Weapon Delivery Type Damage Received Modifier Percent
Ability 1 Description := Reduces damage from (weapon type) by 90%
Ability 1 Scope := Space Object
Ability 1 Range Formula := 0
Ability 1 Amount 1 Formula := -90
Ability 1 Amount 2 Formula := "Energy Beam"

and change "Energy Beam" to the delivery type of your new weapon. You may need to make a new delivery type to prevent it from affecting other weapons, and I'm not sure if this affects shields/armor or just internals.

EDIT: fixed sign typo. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

@ SJ: I thought of the shield idea but there are many reasons why it wouldn’t work.
@ Phoenix-D: That’s close but not there yet. Can it be worked if (1) I give those weapons the AI tag 02? And (2) can I reverse it so that instead of reducing the damage by 90% it increases the damage by 1000%. Not as easy as you first thought?

[Phoenix-D]

PES, that is applied to the *engines*, not the weapon. So you multiply your weapon damage by 10 and it works out the same.

Say it does 100 damage default. You make that 1000.

That 1000 hits a ship with an engine, gets down-rated to 100. When it hits a ship -without- an engine, it does full damage.

No AI tags needed.

[Fyron]

Might need to give the damage type 10% damage to shields too, depending on just how the ability you are giving the engine applies to shield hits.

[President_Elect_Shang]

That still won’t work Phoenix-D. I think what you are missing is what is going to happen to all the non-engine components that are hit. They will sustain 100 pts of damage. The idea is that damage will only be 10 pts as long as a single engine survives. In other words let’s say I have a ship with two engines, two cargo bays, and a bridge.
Outer Hall:
Engine, Cargo Bay, Cargo Bay
Inner Hull:
Engine, Bridge

Our first missile comes in and hits the engine (if we are lucky since it is random) we now have this:
Outer Hall:
<Destroyed>, Cargo Bay, Cargo Bay
Inner Hull:
Engine, Bridge

Now what happens when our second missile hits? Right 100 pts of damage is scored taking out our two Cargo Bays (10 pts each) leaving 80 pts of damage transferred to the Inner Hull (100-20=80) which in turn is reduced by our Engine to 8 pts (80*90%=72 and 80-72=8) of damage on our single engine.

The damage to anything should be (in the case of missiles) 10 pts including shields. Any item on a ship which lacks an interdiction field (created by an undamaged engine) and a shield, and is hit by a missile will receive the damage of the missile times 10. Follow? In sequence:

1) Apply damage all shields at normal rate
2) Does unit have Interdiction Field? YES = damage armor normal: NO = Damage armor *10.
3) Does unit have Interdiction Field? YES = damage outer hull components normal: NO = damage outer hull components *10.
4) Does unit have Interdiction Field? YES = damage inner hull normal: NO = damage inner hull *10
5) Unit is dead!

Just in case that is confusing remember that an engine in the Inner hull will cause steps 2 and 3 to be yes. The question is “Does unit have Interdiction Field?” Don’t confuse that with does it have a field in this hull area. Tough yet?

[Phoenix-D]

No, actually they won't. That ability applies to the entire ship as long as the component carrying it is up.

So: 100 damage hit, engines survive: 10 points of damage applied.
100 damage hit, engines do NOT survive: 100 points of damage applied.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Not working, the ship is taking 100 pts of damage engines or not.

[Suicide Junkie]

PD gave an example of a 100 damage weapon.
You're talking a 10 damage weapon.
Either way, the weapon does ten times more damage when there is an engine vs when there is no engine. (provided that it is implemented correctly)

In addition, that damage modifier PD mentioned applies to the whole ship, not just the engines. It dosen't require shields though.


---

Ok, this is significantly different from what it sounded like you were suggesting in the first post.

You will need to combine my suggestion and PD's suggestion.
Step 1:
- Give engines the "reduce damage by 90%" ability.

Step 2:
- Give shields a high grade shield type (non-interdicting)
- Damage to this shield type is normal.

Step 3:
- Give engines a token amount of low grade shield type (interdicting)
- Damage to this shield type is 10x.


Thus:
When shield types are mixed, the lowest grade (as defined by order in shieldandarmortypes.txt) is used. (Unfortunately. We should be able to mix phased & normal on the same ship and get two separate shield layers IMO)

If you have engines, damage is reduced by 10x, but the shields take 10x damage, which works out to normal damage.
Internals get the 10x reduction, with no multiplier in the damagetypes.txt, for 1/10th normal damage.

If you don't have engines, damage is not reduced, and shield damage is not multiplied. Everything is normal.


PS:
If the ability dosen't seem to be working, check the stock usage and make sure you're duplicating it correctly.

[President_Elect_Shang]

The Weapon Delivery Type Damage Received Modifier Percent is not working. I tried it at 90 and 10 and 0 and each time the weapon did 100 points of damage. I can live with 100 pts of damage if the ability was working. It isn’t!

[Phoenix-D]

If the ability is working it shouldn't matter -what- the amount of damage is. I'll check into it.

[Suicide Junkie]

What about the stock crystalline device?

[Phoenix-D]

The ability is most certainly working. Setting it to -100 means NO damage is applied at all, and that's how it works out.

Works for shields and armor as well; tested at 90% reduction, reduced 350 damage hit to 35, as expected..

EDIT: and it just plain works. Positive values increase damage, negative ones decrease. If I had to guess, PES, your Damage Type and the one the engines are using don't match.

[Fyron]

Are you using negative values, PES?

Stock Energy Refractor:

Ability 1 Type := Weapon Delivery Type Damage Received Modifier Percent
Ability 1 Description := Decreases damage from incoming beam weapons by [%Amount1%]%.
Ability 1 Scope := Space Object
Ability 1 Range Formula := 0
Ability 1 Amount 1 Formula := -1 - (([%Level%] - 1) * 1)
Ability 1 Amount 2 Formula := "Energy Beam"

[Suicide Junkie]

Another possibility, of course, is a "num abilities := N" being too small.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Imperator Fyron said:
Are you using negative values, PES?



No I was using positive, PD I'm blaming you for that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

Excellent, thank you all!

[Kana]

So what was the final solution?

[Phoenix-D]

He used my positive values, which were INCREASING the damage by 90%. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Still, should have noticed that during the test PES. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Kana]

Well I was think more like a detailed explanation of what he implemented in the his TC based on the suggestions...

By the way good job all...I hope to use and abuse you all later as well...

[President_Elect_Shang]

The final result is I now have the missile interdiction field working thanks to some great help! I would have noticed if the test ship was large enough to survive at least one hit by a 100 pt missile. But it wasn’t, that would be a DD and they come about till a higher level, which I did not set my tester to. Put another way when my ship went boom I just figured it was the same as SE4 mounts; 90% damage of a 100 means 90 not 190. Is that how the current mounts work? If so I will need to adjust the HAWK.

What is value 1 and 2 given 30 and 10 respectively?
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Ability 1 Type := Component - Weapon To Hit Percent
Ability 1 Description := Improves chance for weapon to hit by +[%Amount1%]%.
Ability 1 Scope := Space Object
Ability 1 Range Formula := 0
Ability 1 Amount 1 Formula := 10
Ability 1 Amount 2 Formula := 0
Ability 2 Type := Component - Weapon Seeker Tonnage Structure Percent
Ability 2 Description := Improves durability by [%Amount1%]%.
Ability 2 Scope := Space Object
Ability 2 Range Formula := 0
Ability 2 Amount 1 Formula := 150
Ability 2 Amount 2 Formula := 0
Number Of Requirements := 2
</pre><hr />

1 = 33 and 2 equals 15?

[President_Elect_Shang]

I see the ability Multiplex Tracking remains. Why legacy?

[Fyron]

Aaron doesn't have a copy editor to go through everything with a fine-toothed comb? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif

[Phoenix-D]

Yeah, you want legacy go look at settings.txt. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Note- if this new component is a seeker, the first ability won't do anything; seekers never miss. If its NOT, the second won't do anything because no other weapons use that ability..

[President_Elect_Shang]

You are right; I should have said something about that. The mount is for both. I just wanted to know what the results (in numerical value) would be. Besides I have decided to use to-hit formulas for seekers regardless. I am keeping hope that Aaron will adjust them one day (or version) so that they can have a chance to miss. Ha-ha-ha I know; I know anyway…. I have two sorts of missiles in use. Sprint (direct fire) can’t be stopped by PD and non-sprint (seeker) which can be stopped. Unless someone can suggest an alternate that doesn’t include creating a new vehicle I will have to stick with this system.

[Kana]

Seekers do have ECM though I guess to protect them from PD I believe...

[Suicide Junkie]

If you want missiles with a chance to miss, why not use slow bolts?

Or directed torpedoes, if you want the chance to miss to be based on geometry, velocity and the weapon's turn rate.

[President_Elect_Shang]

But it’s not just missiles with a chance to miss. Its missiles with a chance to miss and that P-D can shot down? I wasn’t aware that SE5 P-D could shoot Bolts or Torpedoes?

[Raapys]

Someone should give Aaron a tip about the editor!

[President_Elect_Shang]

Raapys said:
Someone should give Aaron a tip about the editor!



Editor? I think you have the wrong thread. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

[Kana]

Suicide Junkie said:
If you want missiles with a chance to miss, why not use slow bolts?

Or directed torpedoes, if you want the chance to miss to be based on geometry, velocity and the weapon's turn rate.



And this is why I love these theoretical conversations...You learn ways to use things you may already be aware of, but really not sure how to use...

[Phoenix-D]

Torpedos are just seekers by another name, so it can. And if the turn rate is low enough they can miss. It isn't effected by ECM at all, though.

[Kana]

Define miss...if it can still turn, and still has movement left, and is fast enough, it might just hunt down the target...

[Kana]

President_Elect_Shang said:
But it’s not just missiles with a chance to miss. Its missiles with a chance to miss and that P-D can shot down? I wasn’t aware that SE5 P-D could shoot Bolts or Torpedoes?



Bolts and Torpedos seem to be an effect. You can set speeds for them and everything. It isnt just a seeker/direct fire thing anymore. In theory you could say a certain speed is speed of light, and thats how fast your 'laser' beam will travel over a given distance. A FTL ship could move out of the way if it was far enough away from the ship firing the beam if the effect didnt get there in one second or the range was great than the speed of light...

Also there is that energy beam absorbtion ability thingy...

[Atrocities]

Well the modding folks seem to be in a state of exaltationthese days. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Ideas are abound.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Ha-ha-ha, thanks AT you are great!

Now Kana, miss would be to miss and not turn back or veer for another try at all. I see it has been a while since you played StarFire, no problem. The energy absorption thingy is the Overload Dampener. It doesn’t cause a miss it just takes the hit instead of the ship. I have built them in but modeled it more like a type of emissive armor. Following canon would not have of been possible for reasons I won’t bore you with. Anyway why do beams traveling at the speed of light miss in StarFire? For a multitude of reasons one of the more hard core StarFire members gave a few years back. I prefer two explanations, one of his and one of mine.

First his: StarFire ships are enveloped by the engines drive field which causes the range finding lasers of an attacking ship to miss-read the actual physical location of the target. Thus when the calculations are run the firing solution produced is already incorrect before the weapon has even fired.

Now Mine: No matter how good a game is if it is based on future technology it will always have a certain percentage of the mysterious material “handwaveum” as part of its construction. Being composed of this strange material the laws of reality will often fail and thus weapons miss, people are broken down to energy and reassembled thousands of clicks away in a cave hundreds of meters below the surface of a planet. Gravity wells can be made to connect to systems light years away allowing near instant travel and oh crap you get the picture!

Handwaveum; not just for breakfast anymore! Now offered in Minty Fresh flavor.

Why seekers: Bolts and torpedoes still can’t be intercepted by P-D. I was left to decide how I wanted to handle non-sprint missiles. (1) Select a weapon type other than seeker which would allow for the chance to miss and lose the P-D ability along with the entire P-D technology line unless I wanted to restrict it to only firing on small craft including fighters. Or (2) use seekers keeping P-D in full effect and build this TC with the hope that Aaron will allow seekers to miss as an option one day. I picked #2!

[Phoenix-D]

More to the point, SF beams are being fired from rather long ranges. Say you're half a LS away. Your targeting information is half a second old, and by the time the laser gets there another half second has passed. Just how much can Starfire ships jink in a second? Quite a lot, I'd think. They're described as being able to pull hairpin turns..

[President_Elect_Shang]

Yes, wow Phonix I’m impressed! Ever played?

[Phoenix-D]

Nope. Read the books. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

What if I wanted to create a component which worked like an anti-engine? Instead of reducing damage by 90% it would increase damage by 300%; however, the 300% damage from the “Weapon Delivery Type Damage Received Modifier Percent” ability must be restricted to only that one component. Can it be done?

[Kana]

President_Elect_Shang said:
What if I wanted to create a component which worked like an anti-engine? Instead of reducing damage by 90% it would increase damage by 300%; however, the 300% damage from the “Weapon Delivery Type Damage Received Modifier Percent” ability must be restricted to only that one component. Can it be done?

First his: StarFire ships are enveloped by the engines drive field which causes the range finding lasers of an attacking ship to miss-read the actual physical location of the target. Thus when the calculations are run the firing solution produced is already incorrect before the weapon has even fired



I was reading another thread, and I was going to ask something about this as well. Supposedly the damage types that are supposed to effect certain components, like weapons and engines will only take effect if the shields and armor are eliminated first. I was wondering if this can be tweaked with the Penetration and Damage percentage lines?

If there is a shield, then a Engine effecting weapon that you dont want effected by the shield would have a 100% Penetration vs that type of shield, then effect the engine.

Plus:
Requirement 1 Description := Only destroys components that generate movement.
Requirement 1 Formula := Does_Component_Have_Ability("Movement Standard")

Am I groking this correctly?

As for the science behind beams and engines in SF, sounds alot like Honor Harrington effects as well...Gee I guess they were written by the same guy....

[President_Elect_Shang]

Right Weber wrote the StarFire books and Honor Harrington was written by Rebew. I too have noticed that they write the same. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Can you flesh out what you are describing, a more detailed explanation and/or example please? If I am following you right the thing you are trying to do can be done by creating a new shield and armor type.

[Kana]

Well I'm going to need damage types that will be able to effect at least engines if there are shields/armor or not. I was just thinking outloud that a similar thing can be done for your problem...

[President_Elect_Shang]

Ok for what you are looking to do that sounds simple. Create the damage types in DamageTypes.txt using Only Damages Engines as the template; but you already know that. I’m not sure that will help me. If I follow that template it will limit the weapon to only affecting that component and shields and armor if I set it that way.

[Kana]

President_Elect_Shang said:
What if I wanted to create a component which worked like an anti-engine? Instead of reducing damage by 90% it would increase damage by 300%; however, the 300% damage from the “Weapon Delivery Type Damage Received Modifier Percent” ability must be restricted to only that one component. Can it be done?



And isnt this what your want? Penetration to me means that it doesnt affect the shield/armor at all, so all damage will get past to what ever component you want.

So are we targeting a specific component, or a group of components functions? What is the SF component you are trying to make or affect?

[President_Elect_Shang]

Antimatter loaded in a magazine! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Phoenix-D]

Well, even if it could the only affect will be the antimatter pod dying easier, and you can simulate THAT by just giving the pod 3x less hitpoints..

[Spectarofdeath]

I think what he's trying to do would be to make a weapon be able get a lucky shot through a weak point resulting in the destruction of a entire ship Hood vs Bismark type shot....if I'm following it correctly....where a ship takes a shot and hits a specific comp and then the dmg is multiplied by how much the comp (antimatter) is holding.....I think....

[President_Elect_Shang]

Spectarofdeath said:
I think what he's trying to do would be to make a weapon be able get a lucky shot through a weak point resulting in the destruction of a entire ship Hood vs Bismark type shot....if I'm following it correctly....where a ship takes a shot and hits a specific comp and then the dmg is multiplied by how much the comp (antimatter) is holding.....I think....



Give the man a cookie! Sorry but we don't smoke here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Phoenix-D]

Ok, that you're not going to be able to pull off. I think.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Phoenix-D said:
Ok, that you're not going to be able to pull off. I think.


You’re not my hero for the rest of the day! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Seriously I didn’t think it was going to work. I wanted to ask because, like the challenge that started this thread, I always want to over think the problem.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Is there a way to change the weapon delivery type? Using the “Missile” example from before say change from “Missile” to “Elissim”?

[shinigami]

Unfortunately, no. I tried it and the game won't allow custom weapon types.

Edit: Please ignore the moron who made this post. Apparently he has forgotten how to read and missed the word "delivery" in the question.

We now return you to your regular forum browsing.
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[Phoenix-D]

Delivery types? Yes it will. Just change it to whatever you want.

[President_Elect_Shang]

The “Weapon Delivery Type” in components can be set to what ever you wanted and then used for other things. Read a few posts where I talked about the overload dampener? That was done using a custom Weapon Delivery Type. I see a way to change damage type but not weapon delivery type.

[Phoenix-D]

"The “Weapon Delivery Type” in components can be set to what ever you wanted and then used for other things."

" I see a way to change damage type but not weapon delivery type. "

One of these things is not like the other!

You realize the only use of Weapon Delivery Type is for that other ability, right? It doesn't do anything otherwise.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Right I know. I want to change the “Weapon Delivery Type” (i.e. my missile, energy beam, laser beam, ADM). I do not want to change the “Weapon Type” (i.e. seeking, point-defense, direct fire). The only thing I can find is for adding or removing a damage type. I can’t find anything that will allow the change of a Weapon Delivery Type from one thing to another. I want to build a mount with that as one ability.

[Phoenix-D]

Oh, you want to do it would a -mount-. No, as far as I know that can only be changed directly in the components file.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Does anyone know if these two abilities are working for mounts or not? Or working at all for that matter:

1) Component - Weapon Target Remove Target Type
2) Component - Weapon Damage Remove Damage Type
3) Component - Weapon Damage Add Damage Type

I am also questioning “Component - Weapon To-Hit Percent” as I have not seen it affect the to-hit numbers yet.

[President_Elect_Shang]

No takers? No one knows? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif