Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05

[dogscoff]

Like the thread title says, I'm attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05

Having played a big single player game recently that gave me plenty of opportunity to observe the AI in (in)action, I have a pretty good idea of what they are not doing. Sadly I have something very much like zero modding experience, so it's not so easy for me to see how to fix them. Still, I've started tinkering nonetheless.

As far as I can tell, the changes in the tech tree from Proportion 2.X to 3.X have cut many AIs off from their traditional research paths, so they are reaching a certain point in tech development and then making no further progress. Simply bridging the necessary gaps in the _AI_Research files ought to allow them to build all the ships they ordinarily would.

A more advanced project would be to introduce them to some of the mod's new technologies, but baby steps, baby steps.

Anyway, just to dip my toes into the water, I've decided to try to give the Terrans back their fighters: In my solo game I observed the Terrans, (who started in my home system) for many hundreds of turns before they declared me MEE and I took their homeworld. In all that time they never built a single fighter, which is the Terran trademark tech. I think this is probably down to them having no instructions to research the fighter powerplant or fighter propulsion areas.

With all this in mind I've made some changes to Terran_AI_Research, but haven't playtested them myself yet, and probably won't get an opportunity to do so for a while, so I've no idea if it works.

The 'improved' Terran_AI_Reasearch file is attached, I'd appreciate any and all feedback based on either looking at the file or trying it out in an actual game. Your comments would be more than welcome.

Note that my objective at this point is simply to get them to build fighters and carriers (although I couldn't help tweaking some other stuff as well). Getting them to do so in a particularly competitive manner is beyond my current remit.

[Atrocities]

I would change the Percentage to 34 on all tech.



AI State := Exploration, Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term), Not Connected
Tech Area Name := Gas Giant Colonizers
Tech Area Level := 10
Tech Area Min Percent := 34



Also start with smaller needed tech and leave the larger stuff for later. I focused on weapons, basic technology, engines, and needed component tech first then moved onto larger less important technology. Also consider breaking it up a bit. Instead of having them research to level 10, have them research to level 2 then put other entries in for Level 4, 8, and then 10.

I went one step further and gave the AI its own AI research boost in the racial traits to help it "understand" research better. (Cheat).

[dogscoff]

Thanks AT, good advice, I will apply it to the later techs.

The colonizer techs are a special case, since you have to rush-research them for the first ten turns of a Proportions305 game - without them you can't colonise, and each level takes only a few hundred research points.

Nice idea with the research boost, but that would involve changing the data folder. I'm just working on the AI files for now. However with the massive tech tree and huge research costs in this mod any sort of research boost is good. Ideally I'd like to get the AIs building city facilities (which generate research in addition to other things) and dedicated research centres to help them along the research path.

Does the AI ever scrap facilities? That would be very helpful, if I could somehow convince it optimise it's homeworlds a little.

[PvK]

Yes, the Proportions 3.x AI needs to know about the new tech areas. I think it can do the new colonizers, but not many other of the new techs.

Fighters won't get built due to none of the AI's knowing about the new Fighter tech area(s). The AI would probably be best off researching far enough that fighters will be somewhat effective before researching those, to avoid producing a lot of fighters that are about as combat effective as 20th Century US Space Shuttles (i.e. hardly at all).

The fighter unit design would also want to be tweaked a little to get them to design the new fighters with the right components.

I think I'd look at getting the ship construction working right first, because it will be more rewarding and I mean to re-vamp fighters a bit for 3.0.7. Which reminds me I should post 3.0.6 some time... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[PsychoTechFreak]

I'm looking forward to "some time". /threads/images/Graemlins/PointUp.gif

[Ironmanbc]

PvK said:
Yes, the Proportions 3.x AI needs to know about the new tech areas. I think it can do the new colonizers, but not many other of the new techs.

Fighters won't get built due to none of the AI's knowing about the new Fighter tech area(s). The AI would probably be best off researching far enough that fighters will be somewhat effective before researching those, to avoid producing a lot of fighters that are about as combat effective as 20th Century US Space Shuttles (i.e. hardly at all).

The fighter unit design would also want to be tweaked a little to get them to design the new fighters with the right components.

I think I'd look at getting the ship construction working right first, because it will be more rewarding and I mean to re-vamp fighters a bit for 3.0.7. Which reminds me I should post 3.0.6 some time... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



And the one's that play this mod (like me)
are looking forward to the update http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[oleg]

If only I had some time to help...
But after birth of my second kid (girl this time) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
I have none...

[Atrocities]

Congrats on the child. Go Pappa!

[dogscoff]

Congrats Oleg.

Pvk I'll do you a deal: You release Proportions 3.0.6, and I'll release version 1.30 of the Proportional Response Pack and 1.40 of the Neostandard expansion pack that I've been sitting on for almost a year. They include the Cue Cappan infantryman Sgt Squiddie (leaked to these forums some time ago), a pair of Terran starliners and more besides.

*dogscoff opens up PSP to try to quickly knock out a few more images.

[PvK]

Sounds good, Dogscoff! Do you want to keep the Proportional Response pack as a seperate pack, or shall we just (or also) include it in versions going forward?

I have 3.0.6 itself ready, I think, though I haven't really playtested the new Q-ships to make sure they work properly. It doesn't have a whole lot in it besides those and a few minor fixes, because I wanted to offer a version that wouldn't affect balance before making the next balance-tweak version. I just haven't posted it because of an avalanche of higher-priority things I've needed to do or respond to, and wanted to be sure it worked, and updating the web site is a chore. I think I'll just post 3.0.6 here first (tonight if I remember) as a preview and hope to get some free playtesting, and then if it passes, put it on the web site.

BTW, the next balance-tweak version should be 3.0.7, in which I plan to un-nerf fighters (especially at higher tech levels), semi-nerf weapon platforms so they aren't so ultra-accurate and cost-effective, and probably tweak the mount balance a bit too.

PvK

[Ironmanbc]

PvK said:
Sounds good, Dogscoff! Do you want to keep the Proportional Response pack as a seperate pack, or shall we just (or also) include it in versions going forward?

I have 3.0.6 itself ready, I think, though I haven't really playtested the new Q-ships to make sure they work properly. It doesn't have a whole lot in it besides those and a few minor fixes, because I wanted to offer a version that wouldn't affect balance before making the next balance-tweak version. I just haven't posted it because of an avalanche of higher-priority things I've needed to do or respond to, and wanted to be sure it worked, and updating the web site is a chore. I think I'll just post 3.0.6 here first (tonight if I remember) as a preview and hope to get some free playtesting, and then if it passes, put it on the web site.

BTW, the next balance-tweak version should be 3.0.7, in which I plan to un-nerf fighters (especially at higher tech levels), semi-nerf weapon platforms so they aren't so ultra-accurate and cost-effective, and probably tweak the mount balance a bit too.

PvK



I'll playtest it for you and see if it needs fixing, i am still playing other mods and my sister asked me if I play with no mods and I said (YA RIGHT) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[dogscoff]

PvK said:
Sounds good, Dogscoff! Do you want to keep the Proportional Response pack as a seperate pack, or shall we just (or also) include it in versions going forward?




Entirely up to you. You're welcome to include it if you want. However, even if you do I probably ought to keep it available as a seperate entity because there will be some people who want to download the images for use in other mods. I can email the files over to you today if you want them.

Oh, and if my Terran_AI is any good to you you're welcome to that as well, obviously. I haven't playtested it, but *in theory* it ought to be a little better than the default 3.05 AI. Although if fighters really are that badly nerfed, they may be better off without them.

I've also got a set of AI files that (ought to) allow neutrals to build colonisers once more. Interested?

[PvK]

Wow, it's been a long time since the last time I posted a Proportions update! I've been way too busy...

Ok, there is a beta version of 3.0.6 posted here:
http://www.latibulum.com/pvk/proportions/Proportions3.0.6.beta.zip

The Q-ships should be tested in a game with two human-controlled players. Using High Starting Tech and a very small map would be easiest. The effect should be that if player A builds a regular transport and a Q-ship of the same size, another human player should have no way at all to tell that the Q-ship is not a regular transport, until/unless he scans or encounters that ship class.

The probes should just be lame drones available on turn 1 even in a Low Starting Tech game.

Thanks for the offer of testing, ironmanbc!

Dogscoff:

* To avoid making each version of the mod large with the same graphics in each version, I guess I'll continue as I have and not include the whole prop response pack in the mod, but I would like to include the neutral/default/generic images from the response pack, so it helps shipsets that lack all the unit types used in Proportions. So if you could let me know if there are any new ones of those not in 3.0.6 yet, that'd be great. I.e., in Pictures/RaceGeneric I now have Barge, Infantry, LargeStarliner, ResourceShip, ResourceStation, Starliner, TroopHuge, and WorldShip.

* AI is probably better off not trying to use fighters until 3.0.7 I think.

* Colonizing Neutral AI sounds good though. Would you email it to me?

PvK

[PvK]

Oh, I should post the changes in this version:

Changes Log:
============

Version 3.0.6:

--------------
New Additions:
--------------
* Added a new tech area for Q-Ships, which appear to be transports or starliners, but can be nearly fully-equipped warships, though they still maneuver like transports.
* Added probes, which are small low-tech drones, because any space-faring nation should be able to deploy simple robot spacecraft. They are inferior to drones, so one may wish to research Drones and not Probes, so they have their own tech area which requires Computers at level 1.
-----------------
Gameplay Changes:
-----------------
* Reduced crew and life support requirements for Large Transports from 3 to 2.
* Reduced mineral cost of regular Auxiliary Control from 500 to 100.
------
Fixes:
------
* Corrected supply use for Anti - Proton Beam X.
* Corrected (hopefully no-effect...) double "number or tech req" line in Anti - Proton Beam XI.
* Added double-tech-req entries to Point - Defense Cannons IV and V, to be consistent with earlier PD Cannons. (Note: This is an attempt to convince the AI to prefer these on ship designs.)
* Corrected categorization of Anti-Matter Reactor tech area as Applied Science. (7)
* One can no longer upgrade to Space Port + Supply Depot. This was happening to Resupply Bases, removing their benefits and sometimes to no good effect (such as when there was a Space Port City on the planet). (7)
---------
Cosmetic:
---------
* Corrected typo in crew quarters description.

((7) Thanks to Edward Kolis for reporting this!)

[dogscoff]

PvK did you get my email?

[PvK]

Yes I got one (at both accounts). Did you get my reply?

[Arralen]

Any news on this?

I tried 2.9.1 or something (the version recommended for SP play) and found the aI to be pretty poor ... would be glad to help, though I don't think I would be able to do much ...

[Atrocities]

Its hard to want to work on a mod for a game that no longer is really being valued by the players. Its like going to a party that no one shows up to any more.

[PvK]

Oh, there are a few players still enjoying it. I'm just swamped, and have other projects. Also with 3.0 I was really trying to make the multi-player game more fun, since that's what interests me most (because the SE4 AI can only get so smart without "cheating"), and so I made some things that are interesting for a micro-managing human player, but would be hard to make a competetive AI for.

Arralen, there is also AIC (AI Campaigns) mod, which was based on a 2.x version of Proportions but with major changes and adjustments including heavy AI "cheats" which can be quite challenging and interesting to play against.

PvK

[Arralen]

Heavy AI cheats do not make up for very poor ship design, eg. .
And I think it should be possible to fix at least the "very", if not the "poor" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Atrocities]

The problem with getting the AI to design ships is that the AI will use more than one needed component or won't use the components that are being required.

The AI will always use the largest ship in the list, usually the top one, as it gains access to that design size.

Also the AI use of components will differ dramatically over the course of low to high tech game.

It is as if the AI wants to be stupid and revels in it.

[PsychoTechFreak]

PvK said:
Oh, there are a few players still enjoying it.


Yep.


Arralen, there is also AIC (AI Campaigns) mod, which was based on a 2.x version of Proportions but with major changes and adjustments including heavy AI "cheats" which can be quite challenging and interesting to play against.



Don't get me wrong, AIC is a good mod, but there may be areas that you could dislike (well, I do). E.g you research for mines and then you notice that it was (almost) useless because the AI ship hulls have the ability to sweep them. Or you spend millions of RPs for the talisman and then you notice that the human type of the RT is only a better attack sensor.

[PvK]

Even the Proportions 2.x AI can at least deploy ships of multiple sizes, and usually do a reasonable job of designing them and so on. The Xi Chung is the AI I tweaked the most in Proportions 2.x. The AI's Oleg made for 2.x are also good (search for "Oleg's AI pack adds three new empires (Size: 1.6 MB)." on my Proportions web page, and JLS also did a good job tweaking the Abbidon (and maybe some others). However, because they don't cheat, and I think also because Proportions requires more thinking and provides more opportunities to do creative and tricky things (as well as some more opportunities to get messed up, etc.), the AI will always be weaker than an experienced human player, and a human will need to limit himself and/or give the AI some kind of advantages in order to have a challenging game.

If I had the time and this was the project I was most interested in, then I would spend the time to mod a decent AI and make some interesting AI cheat options. I know it can be done.

The best way I found was to start a game with the AI race I was tweaking, and watch what it did each turn, then make adjustments to the research, build, design and strategy files to make the AI do things, re-load with the AI and make sure they did them, then look for more things to tweak, etc. I actually found it very fun to do (it's like playing the game using the AI files as your UI) and rewarding once it was done, but it also took forever and showed many weaknesses and frustrating issues with the AI. For that much time investment, I have other projects I'd rather devote the time to.

PvK

[Arralen]

...
The requested URL /pvk/proportions/OlegsProportionsAIs.zip was not found on this server.

[Black_Knyght]

Atrocities said:
Its hard to want to work on a mod for a game that no longer is really being valued by the players. Its like going to a party that no one shows up to any more.



I'm still VERY much into the game, and will be into SEIV for quite some time to come.

[PvK]

Arralen said:
...
The requested URL /pvk/proportions/OlegsProportionsAIs.zip was not found on this server.



Sorry Arralen! It seems to have vanished during a web site update. I'm hunting for it... if I don't find it, I'll reassemble it.

PvK

[Ironmanbc]

I have played a bit of Proportions Pvk and now that have Se5 I'm playing it

the only thing that is really wrong with it is this

Name := Basic Life Support
Description := Mechanical means to generate a livable atmosphere on a starship. This system is not built for compactness, or to withstand battle damage, but is less difficult to manufacture.
Pic Num := 5
Tonnage Space Taken := 15
Tonnage Structure := 1
Cost Minerals := 100
Cost Organics := 100
Cost Radioactives := 0
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Vehicle Control
Family := 3
Roman Numeral := 0
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 3
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 4
Tech Area Req 2 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 2 := 4
Tech Area Req 3 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 3 := 4
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Ship Life Support
Ability 1 Descr := Contains life support.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None


and a few other things like the shields in the wrong order in the list but thats ok.

[Arralen]

PvK said:
Ok, there is a beta version of 3.0.6 posted here:
...
The probes should just be lame drones available on turn 1 even in a Low Starting Tech game.


Probes? Which probes?
Started with low tech and medium costs, and probes are nowhere to be seen??
Actually, I can't even see any drone tech at all ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[PvK]

Arralen said:

PvK said:
Ok, there is a beta version of 3.0.6 posted here:
...
The probes should just be lame drones available on turn 1 even in a Low Starting Tech game.


Probes? Which probes?
Started with low tech and medium costs, and probes are nowhere to be seen??
Actually, I can't even see any drone tech at all ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif




Probes are supposed to be basic drones available from turn 1. Drones are supposed to require research...
I must have broken them before I posted it then. As I wrote, it needed testing... sigh. Thanks Arralen, I'll investigate...

PvK

[PvK]

ironmanbc said:
I have played a bit of Proportions Pvk and now that have Se5 I'm playing it

the only thing that is really wrong with it is this

Name := Basic Life Support
Description := Mechanical means to generate a livable atmosphere on a starship. This system is not built for compactness, or to withstand battle damage, but is less difficult to manufacture.
Pic Num := 5
Tonnage Space Taken := 15
Tonnage Structure := 1
Cost Minerals := 100
Cost Organics := 100
Cost Radioactives := 0
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Vehicle Control
Family := 3
Roman Numeral := 0
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 3
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 4
Tech Area Req 2 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 2 := 4
Tech Area Req 3 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 3 := 4
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Ship Life Support
Ability 1 Descr := Contains life support.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None


and a few other things like the shields in the wrong order in the list but thats ok.



Thanks ironmanbc. All feedback is helpful. However in these two cases, these are things done to help the AI:

* The extra tech-level requirements are inserted as a hint to the AI that the component is a good version to choose to satisfy a tech level requirement. For the Basic Life Support you list, this is because it's the most efficient version in terms of cost (if not in terms of structure or size). (I think listing the requirement multiple times gets the AI to prefer the component, but I could be wrong or it could have changed due to SE4 patches.)

* The mixing of the order in which shields are listed is also intentional and for the AI's benefit. In this case, it causes the AI to upgrade in the order listed. This corrects the AI bug/stupidity where it will replace all strong standard shield generators with Phased Shield Generator Mark I as soon as it is available, even though this isn't generally the best thing to do.

PvK

[Ironmanbc]

I see..... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I hope there is an se5 ver. that would be cool

[PvK]

Thanks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Arralen]

I hope there will be a version 3.07 with fully working AI for SE4 - that would be way cooler .. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[PvK]

Ya, I agree. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[PvK]

Status update: I looked for the backup with the Oleg AI pack and haven't found it yet (I know I have it on at least one backup though). I did have the actual AI's installed on my main SE4 computer, but before I could extract them into a new version of the pack, my computer suffered some kind of evil breakdown which I haven't had time to analyze and repair.

PvK

[dogscoff]

Just FYI...

I started a single player, 255-system game with the latest version of Proportions and my colonising neutral files installed. I had "not all warp points connected" and as a result found myself in a small disconnected cluster with no other races present. Rush-researched warp-openers (only took me 180-odd turns), introduced myself to the galaxy at large, and found the AI to be doing very nicely, thankyou very much.

~turn 200, the Jraenar are running around with some pretty formidable ripper beam/ basic laser+JP engine ships, the Praetorians have a multi-system empire and several fleets of 30+ warships, and the Texrak have colonised another world in their homesystem. I've yet to encounter anyone else.

Since I've been concentrating on non-military research, my best (only) warships have just Ion engine III and meson blaster II... gonna be an interesting game. I could win it easily by holing up and resaearching/building at leisure, but I think for a challenge I will go for a more aggressive approach and see if ai can grab and hold some worlds from the Jraenar, while encouraging the Praetorian to declare on me=-)

[PvK]

Hmm, interesting! I guess it's not as bad off as some of us might have thought. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[PvK]

Arralen said:
...
The requested URL /pvk/proportions/OlegsProportionsAIs.zip was not found on this server.


Ok, I found a backup and restored the file.

I also got my SE4 computer's hard drive online on another computer and scanned it for disk problems and for viruses, and found no problems... so why it refuses to boot Win98SE on the other box is still a mystery.

PvK

[Ironmanbc]

If anyone was wondering what happened to me two words GUILD WARS http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

I just looked in to see if ver. 3.07 was done yet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[PvK]

Not finished yet. The PBW Proportions games have restarted with new players, so I've been organizing that, and it shows there's an audience for 3.07, so I am going to do it.

PvK

[gregebowman]

Count me in as an interested player. Can't do the PBW version, though, but I can wait for the 3.07 version.

[PvK]

Thanks Greg!

[Ironmanbc]

Is 3.07 ready?

[PvK]

No it's not. I completed the mega project that had been monopolizing my time, and found all kinds of other stuff I wanted to do. I think I'm about ready to go get 3.07 ready for release, though.

[Ironmanbc]

ah the wife got ya butt off the computer and doing suff around the house. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[PvK]

LOL! Thankfully not!

[gosho mladenoff]

Dear PvK,
I'm a big fan of your Proportions mod in all formats (including AICampaign and Proportions for SE5 for which I'm waiting for the upgrade for 1.71). Just wondering if your going to add any new techs like single shot missiles, fighter missiles, zero-G troops (micro-fighters), missile PD and seeking PD. Also I'd really like to see FQM mod patched in. Is there any way of doing this without changing the mod significantly?

Regardless in my current game the (no warp points) the drushocka have been doing well, whereas the piundon seem to be stalled in colonization.

big fan keep up the good work.

ggm

[Ironmanbc]

PvK is not the person that is making the SE5 ver. of Proportions (we ARE waiting for ver. 3.07+ from him through) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

we can keep BUGGING him for an update for 3.07+ and SOMEDAY http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif he will give it to us

[PvK]

What Mac said is accurate. Also, gosho, thanks very much for the feedback and interest. I do have _plans_ to add new techs to Proportions for SE IV, but which and when any of those plans will materialize in tested form remains the unforeseen future.

Ideas to add stuff did include single-shot missiles, fighter missiles and more seeker and PD variations. They didn't include zero-G troops though that's an interesting idea. Next plans include rebalancing the mounts and weapon platforms and fighters, reworking the sensor/cloaking techs, making smaller ships more viable and less expensive by applying scale mounts to more components (especially bridge/life support/crew), and more interesting mine warfare developments. Oh, and redoing the whole espionage system so it's much more useful and balanced but about actual espionage rather than sabotage and subversion. Heaps of ideas... but whether I'll do them or not and when, I don't know.

FQM can be combined with SE4 Proportions mod though there are effects. For example, Fyron combined them for a Proportions 2.x PBEM game, with the result of creating nearly-unlimited resources from mining. I don't have specific steps for combining them but it's not too tricky. The Proportions quadrant elements do get lost, of course, but they aren't essential.

PvK

[PsychoTechFreak]

You just replace 2 or 3 txt files:

quadrants.txt
systems.txt
planets.txt(?)

In my setup, I have taken those files from the AICampaign mod which includes FQM.

[gosho mladenoff]

Thanks for the info Psycho. I 'll give it a try.
Can't wait for the update PvK.


ggm

[Arralen]

Any news on the AI improvements .. and 3.07, maybe ? ;-)

[PvK]

I expect Proportions AI improvements will only happen in one of two cases:

1) Someone besides me wants to spend time coding and testing them. I am available to explain how things work and give ideas and guidance.

2) I suddenly decide to devote a bunch of time to doing it myself. Might happen some time, but my guess is not. It's not that it's entirely unappealing, just that I have so many other things I'd probably choose to do instead. Hearing about people who would actually play it does increase the odds, though, so thanks very much to everyone who's expressed interest!

[Atrocities]

SE IV AI sucks monkey balls. I have worked with it and worked with it and the best I can do is get it to piss me off. When the AI doesn't even follow the game rules, hard coded limits such as One Component Only, or there is no way to correctly tell the AI that you must have X amount of X type of specific type of component or ship, aside from major guess work that only works at X level then is ignored at Y level, modding the AI becomes an escalating source of absolute frustration.

[PvK]

Yes, it requires a lot of patience, guesswork and time for trial and error. We did figure out quite a bit, but still what was we ended up doing was watching what the AI did, then tweaking, then watching what it did, over and over in great detail. Which was actually fun but time consuming and sometimes (or often) frustrating. And yes there are limits on how good it can actually get, and to really challenge an experienced player, it probably needs some unfair advantages.

[Urendi Maleldil]

One thing that I have mentioned before however, is that the game reloads the AI script each turn. Therefore it would be possible to have an external program modify the AI files between turns, which could yield more "intelligent" AI.

Such a program could read and respond to conditions described by the game in the external log files, and help the AI react better to in-game actions.

[PvK]

Could do, with logging turned on, though what kind of information can SE4 be made to log?

[Suicide Junkie]

If you're going to be using an external program, getting info back out will be the tough part.

Perhaps an autohotkey program to use the existing SE4 UI... open all the dialogs and extract all the details into a nice text format.

Then it could run your AI.exe to create an orders file to read... and finally some hammering on the SE4 UI to plug the orders into the game before hitting end turn.


To heck with using the built-in AIs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif How about writing your AI in whatever language you like, and playing with all the options of the human interface?

[Ironmanbc]

HA if we could do that then I would leave the Ministers on and let them do my turns while I sleep http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

I will make the UI interface if somebody wants to make the AI program.

[PvK]

Do you really think it's feasible to create an interface to read and use the SE4 UI?

[Suicide Junkie]

Certainly.

The toughest part would be the text recognition, but the fonts are all known, and the text locations are in fixed positions too. (With some simple adjustments for screen resolution, but I already deal with that in the Windowed SE4 tool)

Giving orders should be easy too:
"Select ship X" --> Go to ships list, scroll down until the ship name is found, then click it.
"Move/warp/etc to a location" --> press hotkey, click galaxy map, click coordinates.

[PvK]

I guess I missed the threads on the windowed SE4 tool. What are you using to screen-scrape and manipulate the UI?

[Suicide Junkie]

AutoHotKey is what the Windowed SE4 Tool uses.

http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/MM/SE4/Tools/zip/WindowedSE4.zip

[Urendi Maleldil]

Sweet, SJ. Your Windowed SE4 Tool is great.

[PvK]

Thanks but I don't know what it does. I ran it and it gave me system tray programs. Is there a doc of some sort?

[Suicide Junkie]

You only need one copy of it running.
Then launch SE4 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

The tray tool will:
1) Remove the black border around the game.
2) Let you click and drag any of the game windows around as if it were a real window.
3) Let you shift-click and CTRL-click in the design screen and the simulator setup, to add or remove 10 (or 50) items at once.

See:
http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/MM/SE4/Screenshots/WindowedSE4.png

[Suicide Junkie]

Oh, and this weekend I made myself a nice OCR program which can tally up the maintenance costs for the PBC game.

One step closer to being able to export all the game data for that external AI.

[PvK]

Aha! Now that is very cool, SJ. I am impressed! Thank you for explaining it to me and attaching the screenshot. Hmmm... very interesting...

[Ironmanbc]

Yo PvK can you give us a list of the new stuff that you added Thanks

[PvK]

A list of new stuff I added ... between what versions?

[Ironmanbc]

between ver 3.07 to 3.0x that you have planed

we are still waiting for ver 3.07 to come out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[PvK]

Hey, you actually got me to think about and do a little work on the mod.

Here are some notes on what I've done SO FAR with fighters in 3.0.7 (aka 3.1.0):

Version 3.0 attempted to alter fighter balance and gameplay to require
major research before fighters became as powerful as they are very quickly
in version 2.x. Hitpoints were reduced, the engines and supply reworked,
electronic warfare made expensive, shields changed from damage absorbers
to hit-spoiling deflectors, and rate of fire was halved as a way to get
them to swoop in and out and make anti-fighter fighter designs less
destructive against ships. Well, it added up to a much more of a nerf
than I intended. I finally got around to addressing all of this in version
3.0.7.

I wanted to preserve some of the neat ideas in 3.0, though, and engines
were one. The new combined engine components are nice in that they allow
more engine power to give combat bonuses, which can't be done with
separate components. But it also gave me many components, and I didn't
want a vast number of them to support the whole range of fighter sizes
from 15 to 45 kT. In 3.0 however, this meant very slow larger fighters,
which doesn't make sense. Eventually I decided scale mounts were the
solution. Note that although in terms of actual acceleration, it might
be only proportionally more difficult (and so, entirely possible) to
accelerate a small fighter or a large bomber, the maneuverability would
be harder to achieve, and since SE4 movement is abstract and contains
no way to represent maneuverability other than movement points and to-
hit modifiers, larger fighters and ships are shown as having slower
maximum abstract speeds, to represent this.

With the new scale mounts and fighter engine classes, instead of having the option of putting something like 1 x Ion Engine on a Large fighter, and having it barely move, the low end would be a Light Propulsion system which even on a heavy bomber will be scaled to produce a low end but somewhat reasonable amount of speed.
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> -----------------
Gameplay Changes:
-----------------
* Fighter propulsion reworked. See "Version 3.0.7
fighter rebalance design notes" above for explanation.
* Fighter engine components redefined as Light, Standard, Heavy, etc.
* Engines/move for larger fighters greatly reduced.
* Fighter engine movement points increased.
* Fighter engines now use scale mounts, with different costs and sizes.
* Fighter engine design space reduced.
* Halved cost of titanium fighter armor, and upped its structure by +1.
* Incompetently messed with emissive armor cost/effect.
Does emissive effect ever do anything on fighters?
Need dogfight/interceptor balance review!
---------
Cosmetic:
---------
* Fighter Power Plants categorized as Supply.
</pre><hr />
And other fighter adjustments, including balance adjustments to firepower, to-hit chances, speed, supply, reduced cost, and removal of so many levels of total-utter-crap fighters at the low end of the tech tree.

Also planned for 3.1.0 is a major balance change to weapon mounts, at least for planetary weapon platforms. As it is, large weapon platforms with mounts and strong combat sensors can become so powerful that large specialized fleets are really required to take out planets efficiently, and it's easy to lose strong anti-ship fleets to a much cheaper investment in WP's. That was originally more or less intentional, but I'd like to tweak that so that it's still possible to have tough planets, but not so cheaply and with not so much accuracy and instant deadliness.

Then 3.0.8/3.2 was planned to have the other features I have wanted to do, including:
* Intel system rebuild to be usable (offense stronger than defense, but little or no sabotage - only/mainly information-gathering).
* Sensor technology reworking for more interesting cloak/sensor competitions.
* Various mine technology ideas.
* Efficient scale mounts for small ship control systems.
* Space-based production &amp; research facilities.
* Possibly improving the AI.
* Probably some other things I'm not thinking of at the moment.

PvK

[Ironmanbc]

* Possibly improving the AI.

That ALWAYS needs improving!!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[PvK]

So, I have been getting back into modding... and getting a lot done modding Dominions 3. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

I am entertaining the idea of hitting Proportions mod again, but right now I'm trying to get to a release point for a magic rebalancing mod for Dominions, which is a major task but I'm actually getting somewhat close to having a version 1.0 complete. No promises, though.

[Ironmanbc]

I played the demo of Dominions 3 (it's cool)

but i'm not ready for that yet still have about 20+ games on the go right now.... like:


Diablo II (with Zy-El)
Sid Meier's Civilization 4 Gold
Sid Meier's Railroads! (ya i like his games) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Heroes 3 Complete
Heroes of Might and Magic IV (the dvd ver. with two exapanions that come on the dvd)
1602 A.D (cool game)
Call To Power 2
Patrician III (like 1602 only cooler) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Imperium Galactica 2 (a bit like space empires)
dominions 3 demo
Master of Orion 3 (i bought it the day it came out $69.95 still kicking myself in the butt)
Civilization II Multiplayer Gold Edition
Test of Time (can ya tell i LOVE civ games) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Dungeon Siege I (my sister is playing (MY) Dungeon Siege II
Nexus - The Jupiter Incident - Singleplayer Demo (i missed it when it came out in the stores)
Railroad Tycoon II - Platinum http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Settlers IV
Heritage of Kings - The Settlers
World of Warcraft (who doesn't) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

and oh ya i have:
Space Empires IV Deluxe
Space Empires V

I don't have Starfury (i missed it in the stores) maybe someday i'll get some money and order it

if this post is a prob with the rules of this forum i'm sorry but i just wanted to post this

[PvK]

I don't mind the topic drift, particularly as I don't currently have much to say on-topic.

I've played at least as much Dominions as Space Empires by now, which is saying something... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

And I'll answer your rhetorical question about who doesn't play World of Warcraft - I don't. I've had my fill just by looking over the shoulder of a few people, looking a little at the design, a few chats with players, etc. You know how I like things to be realistic and in semi-realistic proportions? Well that's why I play Dominions and not Wow, and why I'm even making a balance mod for Dominions... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[BlueTemplar]

World of Warcraft? Never heard of it...

And how do you manage to play all those games at the same time?! I usually don't play more than 2-3 at the same time. For instance it's SEV and SotS for the past two weeks.

[Ironmanbc]

i've had the games going for 3 years now when i get in the mood i load up a saved game and play http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

and no i don't always remember where i left off or what i was doing but after a few turns i go "oh ya i was doing this" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[BlueTemplar]

Sigh... I usually have to restart a new game, I often just can't get the feeling for that particular game anymore.

[Ironmanbc]

Hey, you actually got me to think about and do a little work on the mod.

Here are some notes on what I've done SO FAR with fighters in 3.0.7 (aka 3.1.0):

Version 3.0 attempted to alter fighter balance and gameplay to require
major research before fighters became as powerful as they are very quickly
in version 2.x. Hitpoints were reduced, the engines and supply reworked,
electronic warfare made expensive, shields changed from damage absorbers
to hit-spoiling deflectors, and rate of fire was halved as a way to get
them to swoop in and out and make anti-fighter fighter designs less
destructive against ships. Well, it added up to a much more of a nerf
than I intended. I finally got around to addressing all of this in version
3.0.7.

I wanted to preserve some of the neat ideas in 3.0, though, and engines
were one. The new combined engine components are nice in that they allow
more engine power to give combat bonuses, which can't be done with
separate components. But it also gave me many components, and I didn't
want a vast number of them to support the whole range of fighter sizes
from 15 to 45 kT. In 3.0 however, this meant very slow larger fighters,
which doesn't make sense. Eventually I decided scale mounts were the
solution. Note that although in terms of actual acceleration, it might
be only proportionally more difficult (and so, entirely possible) to
accelerate a small fighter or a large bomber, the maneuverability would
be harder to achieve, and since SE4 movement is abstract and contains
no way to represent maneuverability other than movement points and to-
hit modifiers, larger fighters and ships are shown as having slower
maximum abstract speeds, to represent this.

With the new scale mounts and fighter engine classes, instead of having the option of putting something like 1 x Ion Engine on a Large fighter, and having it barely move, the low end would be a Light Propulsion system which even on a heavy bomber will be scaled to produce a low end but somewhat reasonable amount of speed.
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> -----------------
Gameplay Changes:
-----------------
* Fighter propulsion reworked. See "Version 3.0.7
fighter rebalance design notes" above for explanation.
* Fighter engine components redefined as Light, Standard, Heavy, etc.
* Engines/move for larger fighters greatly reduced.
* Fighter engine movement points increased.
* Fighter engines now use scale mounts, with different costs and sizes.
* Fighter engine design space reduced.
* Halved cost of titanium fighter armor, and upped its structure by +1.
* Incompetently messed with emissive armor cost/effect.
Does emissive effect ever do anything on fighters?
Need dogfight/interceptor balance review!
---------
Cosmetic:
---------
* Fighter Power Plants categorized as Supply.
</pre><hr />
And other fighter adjustments, including balance adjustments to firepower, to-hit chances, speed, supply, reduced cost, and removal of so many levels of total-utter-crap fighters at the low end of the tech tree.

Also planned for 3.1.0 is a major balance change to weapon mounts, at least for planetary weapon platforms. As it is, large weapon platforms with mounts and strong combat sensors can become so powerful that large specialized fleets are really required to take out planets efficiently, and it's easy to lose strong anti-ship fleets to a much cheaper investment in WP's. That was originally more or less intentional, but I'd like to tweak that so that it's still possible to have tough planets, but not so cheaply and with not so much accuracy and instant deadliness.

Then 3.0.8/3.2 was planned to have the other features I have wanted to do, including:
* Intel system rebuild to be usable (offense stronger than defense, but little or no sabotage - only/mainly information-gathering).
* Sensor technology reworking for more interesting cloak/sensor competitions.
* Various mine technology ideas.
* Efficient scale mounts for small ship control systems.
* Space-based production &amp; research facilities.
* Possibly improving the AI.
* Probably some other things I'm not thinking of at the moment.

PvK

so... can we get 3.07 and playtest it :angel

or whatever ver. 3.xx you up to now????

[Ironmanbc]

PvK??????

could ya pause modding Dominions for a bit and post Version 3.0.7 so (we who are waiting :) )can play it.

[Ironmanbc]

am I the ONLY one that is waiting for an update (speak up if anyone else want PvK to post an update) please

[Arralen]

No, you're not alone ... ;)

[PsychoTechFreak]

Three. :rolleyes:

[Black_Knyght]

Four !!!

[Makinus]

Five!

[PvK]

I've been up to a lot of other stuff and barely able to figure out this new version of the forum software to find this thread. I'll try to figure out how to get this one to email me like the last one did when someone posts something.

So... yes, I can cobble together a version... in less time than it took me to reply to Ironmanbc's inquiry ;) ... at the moment though I'm doing some quality consulting on another game, and about 12 other people also want my time this week, but yes, I promise to make a beta version for people to play with and give me feedback. In fact, that'd be a great way to get the next version out, because I want to figure out some balance stuff and I would love others to experiment and/or opine about the things I want tweaked.

[Ironmanbc]

ya i know it takes a little while to get used to the new layout but i'm getting better at it as will everyone else

[Ironmanbc]

I think Pvk forgot about us :rolleyes:

I hope there is an update for Proportions :angel

[Ironmanbc]

If anyone else thinks PvK forgot about us, this christmas lets fill his stockings with coal :)

Dominions can't be ALL that fun to play :)

[PvK]

Dominions 3 is awesome!

I on the other hand, have not done what I said I'd do and post a version.

I did say I would at least post what I have, and I did make an effort, but the version I had wasn't something I wanted to post, and I didn't manage to devote the time it will take to make it reasonable to post.

As of _now_, I have it on my action list, and the only thing in BOLD, though it isn't my first priority and I have tons of stuff on my list, including several projects I care about which haven't been getting any attention.

[Ironmanbc]

It's good to know we on on a list :)

[Ironmanbc]

so... where are we on the list :confused:

not the last page I hope :rolleyes:

[PvK]

Ok, so it fell off the list again. Back on it now, and I'm taking a fresh look at it, starting with fighter rebalance. I wonder though if anyone is going to play it multi-player, or if it is worth playing single-player, without re-tweaking the AI to play 3.x well. If the answer to those is both no, then...

[Ironmanbc]

Ok, so it fell off the list again. Back on it now, and I'm taking a fresh look at it, starting with fighter rebalance. I wonder though if anyone is going to play it multi-player, or if it is worth playing single-player, without re-tweaking the AI to play 3.x well. If the answer to those is both no, then...


Well first of all stop using the dollar store post-it-notes :D to keep track of things :doh:

2'nd I like playing single-player myself... I like the A.I. (tweaking the AI to play better) is always a good thing too :up:

(it kinda hard when the modder is modding something else when you want him to work on THIS mod) :re:

[PvK]

Sound advice!

Which AI empires have you been playing Proportions 3.x against? Have you modded any of the AI files?

[Ironmanbc]

all of them (i play the humans) vs 19 other ai's

i've tryed to mod the ai but when i look at the list of stuff to edit that's where i scrach my head and leave it to the mod'ers

this is me trying to mod :doh::sick::eek::down:

[Arralen]

.. me too.
Even if it's only because every time I want to start to mod SE, I end up playing ... ;)

[PvK]

Thanks Ironmanbc. Is the AI colonizing ok? That's hilarious about your experience looking into modding the AI!

Thanks Arralen.

[PvK]

Any requests or observations of what is and isn't working well?

[Arralen]

Hi Peter,
at first let me say, I really have trouble running Proportions 3.07 ;)

Overall, 3.06 seems to run fine - but it's only turn 23 so there might be more to come; here some remarks ... :

- why did you switch to CD music?

- drones with Design Type: Probe and Hull: Probe still are only usuable as attack drones; there's no way to move them like normal ships (move to, warp), only an (A)ttack button

- planets can launch drones remotedly, but not recover them (button's there, but it doesn't work; presumably not your fault)

- design type "satellite layer" is missing

- some tech costs feel unbalanced and "random"; this mostly apparent in high tech cost game with 1 start planet; e.g. Biology-1 costs 100k, while Astrophysics-1 costs only 85k - yet Bio-1 is the prerequisite for Medical Technology, which you need to keep your pop from diseases :(

- small starliner can use up to 6 engines, yet the starliner module is so big that there's only place for 4 left, and non for supplies, so range is severely limited.

- engine sizes/numbers vs. speed are unbalanced; a scout with effective engines only can move 5, while civil ships can get 3 at best; colonizing is a PITA with speed 2 ...

- Satellite Bay I can only house 1/2 a lvl 1 small satellite ?! (40kt space vs. 80 kt sat)

- 1st level of advanced armor completely negates direct fire fighter weapons .. and "Fighter I" costs 175k, while Armor only is 40k +100k(chemistry)

- max. number of systems is upped to 130 from 100, yet "high number of AI players" is still 6-10.

- isn't "Minimum Empire Point Storage := 500000" slightly excessive?

Some Settings.txt entries don't make sense to me, too:

Maximum Mines Per Player Per Sector := 13
...
Maximum Planet Percent Value := 1000

[Arralen]

!*§%! time limits on edits :banghead

turn 25 :

- standard spaceport is missing from the build list - made obsolete too early (from start?) by the Distribution Center; D.C. takes to long to build in a new system, though; combined "Space Port + Supply Depot" takes research and is even more costly

=> whole bunch of the facility upgrades don't seem to work out ok, as the AI will build the latest tech anyway, so doing an upgrade path like "minor, medium, big colony" won't work if its tied to the tech tree ... and is pretty much inconvenient for the player, who has to turn of "only latest" in the build screen and gets swamped with obsolety facilities. "Upgrade facilities" button screws up everything ...

- transport minister doesn't seem to work with starliners; AI does not build pop transports at all

[PvK]

Thanks for the great input, Arralen!

One thing is it shows me how unclear some things are to players when I'm not around to explain.

What is the zip filename, origin or whatever of your version 3.0.7? I see I have posted a 3.0.6.beta.zip which is older than 3.0.6. I don't see where I posted a 3.0.7. I may have forgotten, but I'm not seeing it on the forum either.

I don't remember ever enabling the CD music, certainly not on purpose.

I know there are limitations of drones which can't be modded away, but probe drones do serve a limited purpose. They are the only units which can move through warp points by themselves (attack the warp point, IIRC), and they don't give the enemy experience when they get destroyed. They are useful as a cheap way to see what evemy defenses exist at a location, or on the other side of a warp point, without giving away experience or losing morale due to ship loss. Also it just seemed like an ability that should be easy to get to make an unmanned exploration probe (we could more or less do that in the 20th Century, after all).

Yeah, there's no way to mod in a way to recover drones in strategic mode, or to remove the button that makes it look possible, that I know of.

Design type Satellite Layer - ok, I'll add that.

I don't claim the tech costs are perfect, but I did give them many layers of thought and tweaking and so on over the years. Unfortunately, all the reasoning isn't fully documented. Medical Technology is the ability to stop amazingly deadly planet-exterminating horror viruses. As I recall, there's no way to raise the natural disease level above a certain point, so the tech cost is balanced to make it a meaningful choice and a serious thing to have to deal with, etc. But I am open to suggestions and explanations of what doesn't seem to make sense or might be better, etc.

Starliners in 3.x are carefully balanced against transports and warships to have a niche, in a complex way - as I recall, when you research higher levels of Starliner Modules, they become smaller, making room for more engines and supplies or whatever. In 3.x there are several techs that start out rather clunky but gain more interesting design possibilities as you get higher tech levels.

I understand you're not used to slow ships, but what's unbalanced about the speeds? Civil ships with low tech engines are cheap low-tech things. Warships with better engines go faster, etc. Colony ships are supposed to be a major undertaking (aka PITA).

I forget what the thinking was about small satellite launchers not housing a small satellite. Your point makes common sense... I think it was just that this way, high-tech cargo space has more of an effect, because less space is assumed to be using the built in generic storage of the launcher. It does seem like it'd make sense to either include enough for the smallest satellite, or none at all. The typical solution of course is to include cargo components.

Fighters are not well balanced in 3.x yet, but you're not right about advanced armor making fighters impotent - a stack of fighters pools its damage against armor (which unfortunately can't be modded).

So what about the max systems 130 without changing high number of AI opponents?

I don't think the Empire Point Storage is excessive. Proportions tends to have long-term resource efficiency games (e.g. building up resources during peacetime to burn during war), and even with that and the other things that store heaps of resources, storage is still an issue and facilities may be worthwhile to add more storage.

Max mines per sector is 13 because mines in 3.x represent entire gigantic barrage minefields or many devices, not single devices. Minesweepers are similarly reduced.

Maximum Planet Percent Value 1000 means you could theoretically use special technology (e.g. Value Improvement Plants IIRC) to develop a resource value of a planet to 1000.

Unlike vanilla SE4, there are many technologies in Proportions where lower levels are still very useful even after higher levels are developed. So using the filters that only show the latest techs, or convenience features that auto-upgrade to the latest techs, is generally not a good idea. There are a few cases where upgrade paths that can be done at one level of research, become unavailable at later research levels. Unfortunately there's no great way to avoid that.

I thought the Transport Minister just took your transports and moved stuff with them - is it really meant to construct pop transports?

[Arralen]

What is the zip filename, origin or whatever of your version 3.0.7? .. I don't see where I posted a 3.0.7. I may have forgotten, but I'm not seeing it on the forum either.
Me neither.
'twas a bad attempt at humor ... wanted to hint that we're all still waiting for 3.0.7 eagerly ;)

I know there are limitations of drones which can't be modded away, but probe drones do serve a limited purpose. They are the only units which can move through warp points by themselves (attack the warp point, IIRC)
Oh, that's what I was missing.
Guess that you get for playing too many similar games at once (SE4 and SE5, Civ4 and Col, Un- and FAangband etc.) - I'm getting really confused sometimes concerning the features ...

Starliners in 3.x are carefully balanced against transports and warships to have a niche, in a complex way - as I recall, when you research higher levels of Starliner Modules, they become smaller, making room for more engines and supplies or whatever. In 3.x there are several techs that start out rather clunky but gain more interesting design possibilities as you get higher tech levels.
Hmmm, ok, I'll have a look at how those components develop at higher tech levels.
Nevertheless, IMHO even the first tech level should make for some usuable ships, and the ship I am able to build atm looks like this:
Small Starliner Hull - 565 kt
1x Basic Bridge 10 kt
3x Life Support 30 kt
1x Basic Crew Quarters 10 kt
1x Starliner Module I + Starliner Mount 475 kt
.. that leaves 40kt for engines:
4x Ion Engine II 40kt, 1040 supplies, 52suppl./sector => range 20 sectors @ speed 3
or
3x Eff Ion Eng II 30 kt
1x Ion Eng. II 10 kt, 1040 supplies, 25 suppl/sector => range 40 sectors @ speed 2

Range 20 is totally insufficient, but mixing engines on every new design again is tedious.
Is the AI able to?

Fighters are not well balanced in 3.x yet, but you're not right about advanced armor making fighters impotent - a stack of fighters pools its damage against armor (which unfortunately can't be modded).
Ouch. Now that you mention it I vaguely remember .. looks like I have been confusing games again :(

So what about the max systems 130 without changing high number of AI opponents?
We have 16 stock AIs available .. why not allow all of them at once?

I thought the Transport Minister just took your transports and moved stuff with them - is it really meant to construct pop transports?
Dunno - you made the AI files.
I would expect it builds some star liners and uses them for pop transportation.
Looks like that neither it builds starliners nor the minister is willing to use them for pop transportation !?

[PvK]

Range 20 on a starliner is fairly limited, but not useless (also considering the cost and that IIRC you may have no other way to build a ship that can haul a population unit at the point that you can build those starliners) - you'd just need to provide supplies for where you want to use it, which is also an intentional part of Proportions - you're supposed to have logistical problems to solve, and using tankers is a useful option (building cheap ships with a lot of supplies and fleeting them with ships that don't have much range themselves).

I don't expect the AI can build good starliners except by accident, though it should be possible to fiddle with the AI to get it to do so. What I'm thinking of doing is resorting to some AI racial techs to provide a challenging opponent rather than investing the time to get the AI to play by the rules designed for humans.

The number of AI empires isn't limited by the definition of a high number of AI opponents for randomly generated games. Also there's no reason the player can't change that setting if they want a full set of AI opponents. But, ya, I might as well turn up the number on that default setting.

The construction minister, when on, decides which things to build without your orders. The transport minister decides whether to order some ships to move units and population around or not.

[Arralen]

As the forum ate the rather lengthy reply of mine, and I don't have the energy to type all that again, here some more findings from my current game in more or less random order:

Xiati Empire does build Starliners, but has no use for them: On turn 2.6 they're still only at Rock Colonisation 5, putting too many expensive other techs into the research queue; On turn 40, researching Temporal Tech III (400k) while Rock Col 7 isn't even queued)

Cue Cappa does have colonisation tech in turn 40, but only 1 world colonised, 1 coloniser en route to the same system, 1 idle. On that colonised world (large domed), it's building a "Minor Spaceport City" what "only" will take 6.1 years ... instead of a simple Spaceport!

Xi'chung is colonising it's home system, and even builds Starliners - yet 2 of those seem to sit 1 move away from the HW in open space, at least 1 doing nothing... (both didn't have orders, but the minister seemingly moved at least 1)

Ruins: 3 times I "discovered advanced technologie" .. but got nothing .. yeah, I know it's in the readme, but I expected that those "dud" ruins do not generate a missleading message ?!

CSM I : damage resist 30kt // Damage Self-Def Cannons I 25, PD-C 25, Def Can 20; And things are bound to get worse, as CSM II is 80k resarch, PointDefCan II is 160k research ...
Who would design defense cannons which could barely not detroy incoming missiles? :cool:
Hmmm, okay, maybe make that question "Do we want that much realism in SE4?" instead ...
;) :D

[PvK]

Interesting AI test results. Looks like the AI can use both colonizers and starliners, but isn't very coordinated about it in the early game, as you reported. Starliners moving speed one sounds like they are out of supplies.

Ruin messages aren't moddable. Sometimes they have ordinary techs which the game unmoddably randomizes, resulting sometimes in you getting tech levels you already have.

As for capital ship missiles versus point defense, I note your experience with them, but I've used them in competitive PBW games, and there they are balanced pretty much as intended. Yes a single PDC I will not shoot down on CSM I in one shot, but they can in two shots, and CSM I fires only once per three turns and the launcher takes 50 kT ship space and uses supplies, while the PDC I fires once per turn, even during enemy movement so it can get two shots in per missile, and it is only 20 kT. If you have 100 kT of CSM I's, that's two missiles, which facing 100 kT of PDC I is 5 shots at least, maybe 10. There are other factors too of course such as range, whom you're trying to defend, etc. I think it plays out pretty well and if anything, I'd say CSM's tend to lose out against point defense in a single tech versus single tech consideration - of course it becomes a guessing game how much PD you need, etc.

[Arralen]

Interesting AI test results.
At least the Xiati need some tweaking of their tech research priorities: Investing 400k points (~40 turns) into Level 3 of their racial tech (Temporal, which does not even give ships hulls etc) while not having colonisation tech available is a no-go.

Looks like the AI can use both colonizers and starliners, but isn't very coordinated about it in the early game, as you reported.
It's only a guess, but to me it looks like that some AIs do not manage to beeline for Colonisation Tech-10. They're building lots of combat ships in the meantime, which seriously hampers their ability to colonise once they finally have the tech needed because of the high upkeep costs.

Starliners moving speed one sounds like they are out of supplies.
Oh, it's not 2 starliners moving 1 step - it's 2 starliners sitting in open space, both fully loaded and amply fueled, but only 1 is moved by the minister on the next turn, while the other just sits there doing nothing (2 steps away what could be the originating planet). Interestingly, both don't have any "standing" orders (like "move to XY, drop pop" or something).

As a player, I never got a minister to even touch a starliner, no matter what I did ...

Ruin messages aren't moddable. Sometimes they have ordinary techs which the game unmoddably randomizes, resulting sometimes in you getting tech levels you already have.
Ok, so as soon as I get the "tech discovered" message, it's a "standard" ruin, not one of your "dud" ones?
Then - how big is the chance that I get a tech I already have - with 3 ruins @ turn 40? Atm., it looks like ruins aren't working at all, but I'll check some more ...

[Arralen]

Ok, obviously there's lot of room for improvement on the AI for Proportions:

I did a test run, all 15 AI in a large galaxy, simultaneous game. I looked into the AIs turns on 2400.1, 2400.5 and 2401.0. I've attached my notes in pdf format.

- lots of AIs do not build proper scouts, but missile attack boats with 1x CSM and 2x std. ion engine: those ships run out of fuel before reaching the next WH ...

- most AI do not manage to research the colonisation tech 10, adding to many expensive techs "in between"; presumably to have some difference between the AI players, some of their research scripts have the same research topics listed in different orders. Sadly, it looks like those lists haven't been adjusted for the vastly different tech costs in Proportions.

Amon'krie are the only ones which (mostly) get things right (colonisation tech 9 on the 10th turn, 4 systems explored), showing that it is possible for the AI to be competitive - after all, the human player only manages to get to col tech 10 in turn 10 because he can rearrange the research queue, what the AI is unable to do.

- Troop transports and cargo tech shouldn't be build/researched before colonisation is possible, as those are basically useless before then.


=> Sadly, it looks like that adjusting the initial research of the AI will make all AI basically act the same during the first 10-15 turns, as there are limited options to choose tech because of prerequisites and costs.
On the other hand, interactions between human player(s) and AIs are very limited during this time frame, too, therefore this shouldn't be too much of an issue...

[PvK]

The AI files were I think ok for Proportions 2.x, but then weren't changed much for 3.x, and were changed in some ways that weren't tested much or at all, so your testing is great to have, thanks!

Agreed about the Xiati starting with 4 years of only temporal research.

The AI not giving orders to some ships sounds like a flaw in the AI that may not have much to do with the mod, or it might just be that the AI doesn't consider a ship with a "mere" one population unit to be a worthy population transport.

It's been years since I had fresh knowledge of what the messages for ruins meant exactly. I don't think it's at all likely that ruins are broken entirely. (We did play several games of 3.x multiplayer.)

Good observation about the 100kT missile boats with range 9.

FYI & IIRC, there is sort of a limit to the control possible over micromanaging what the AI does during the first few turns particularly without impacting what it will do during the rest of the game and with colonies on planets. So for instance it might be ok if it tries building a fire platform on turn 1 on the homeworld, if it means it also builds fire platforms early on colonies, since that's a useful defense to have there.

Also, in Proportions it's far less vital, nor even clearly the best move, to develop scouting and colonizing early on versus military. If an enemy seiges your home planet early on, it may be game over due to unrest. Also colonies are investments which only pay off after considerable time, and which in theory can be captured by invasion (though the AI isn't very good at capturing planets).

[PvK]

I don't think I'll add Satellite Layer to default design names after all. Players can add it if they want, but it's not in the unmodded game, and the default list is pretty basic, which I think is ok. Personally, I always just used the existing "Satellite" design name for satellite layers.