SFTC

[President_Elect_Shang]

I started a thread when I attempted the SE4 version of this. That project died out mostly because I could not get SE4 to model the StarFire universe well enough. Another challenge was my own goal. I was determined not to make this into a TC and was cutting some major corners. Well, now we have SE5 and I have the ability and with help here the skills are coming. I have also given up on this being just a mod and will work on it to finish. So it will have to be a TC as nothing from stock is working right or in balance. I know at least one person who has dropped me a few questions and the offer to help test it when I get to that point. These questions though are getting spread around the forum and when I go to hunt each one down I end up with a missing post and frustrated. So I am starting this thread with the hopes <crosses-fingers> I can keep things in a single place.

Progress so far:
Atmosphere Types: Done
Colony Types: Done
Component Enhancements: Done
Components: Done --- awaiting generational components fix from MM
Cultural Achievements: Done
Damage Types: Done
Design Types: Done
Emperor Tittles: Done
Empire Names: Done
Empire Types: Done
Facilities: Done --- may have a bug awaiting MM fix
Government Types: Done
Home World Starting Facilities: Done
Main Strings: Done
Racial Traits: Done
Settings: Working
Shield and Armor Levels: Done
Ship Experience: Done
Society Types: Done
Strategies: Done
System Names: Done
Tech Areas: Done
Vehicle Sizes: Done
Vehicle Unit Types: Done
Warp Transit Types: Done

There’s so many left to work on it’s not even worth mentioning. Heck I still need to create the entire galaxy! There are 13 design name files for ships that need a bit of cleaning up but are otherwise done. Finally there are a few very minor changes to a bmp here or there, to small to warrant being listed individually.

[VanderVecken]

Keep the Faith, I played starfire when it came out in the folio sized packets. Always glad someone keeps Starfire going in any shape or form.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Where are you stationed at now; still in the Ft Sam area? Ever seen those homes back on Infantry Post? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

[Kana]

So when are you going to start working on the AI's...?

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

I will leave the AI’s till very last; however, as I build the components I am keeping the AI in mind. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Edited in: After I complete the components (which will also mean the completion of the mounts) I will start on creating the galaxy. Now I need to find out the max size in hexes the system can be set at so I can test to see how much it will drain an older computer like mine.

[Kana]

Someone here suggested 20x15, but that crashes the demo. Even 24x18 looks oddly, as if some 'radius' or 'cropping range' is missing or too big - the systems start looking 'squared' at 24x18 again, the 'corners' too much filled up ..
Is it by chance "System Point Radius From Center := 410.0" .. dunno what to do with a point range here, though

To use 20x15 hexes, you need to edit the SystemTypes.txt file so that no items are placed beyond ring 7 - that is what causes the crash.

When changing the system size, multiple the radius by the factor you change the size by. For example, 20/26 is ~ 75%, so the radius should be 315 etc.



This is what I've gleamed from the huge modding thread so far on the subject...

[President_Elect_Shang]

There is plenty of work to be done yet on other files but the components, facilities, vehicles, and mounts are all done. There are known bugs/issues that I have to wait for MM to fix. If Aaron doesn’t fix at least one of the bugs I will have to see if generational components of this nature can be turned into progressive components and still be kept close enough to the spirit of the game to make playing worth it. So Kana (or anyone else) where is this thread about system size?

[Kana]

There wasnt a thread on it...it was part of the Monster Modding thread...

[President_Elect_Shang]

I just took a look at the setting and this thread must have been talking about something else concerning the pictures used. There they mention 20x15 and 24x18 but the default is 26x20.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
System Width In Hexes := 26
System Height In Hexes := 20
</pre><hr />

[Phoenix-D]

He was trying to *reduce* the size of the system PES, hence the smaller values.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Ok that would make sense and I did mention they must have been talking about something else in my last post. Anyway I was asking about the max values and since I hadn’t looked at the setting prior to reading that post…. Hence I didn’t recognize it was smaller before posting.

I did get to try out 264x264 before I had to leave. When the system appeared it was 26x20 again. Is there another place that this needs to be adjusted? I am trying for a 264x264 system grid.

[Phoenix-D]

Read the post again, because it does mention that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif You need to edit System Radius from Center as well. In your case set it to

410 (the base value) * 13.2 (264/20- the amount your new map is larger than the base) = 5412.

[Kana]

That's huge...talk about having to have good sensors...and robust engines...I wonder how much processing that is going to eat up, and how the orbits will be affected?

[President_Elect_Shang]

That’s why I am going to use my computer as a guinea pig. It is an older one and should show any problems the newer high end systems usually don’t have. 264x264 is the base size and I will adjust down from there.

Sensor range will be compensated for later, the values I have assigned now are just place holders based on the current size of systems. As for how long it takes I don’t know, cannon is not based on size of system it is based on accumulated points. This should be quicker than cannon though. I know it may have been some time since you played but remember systems were surveyed by survey fleets with as many as 60 ships. And that isn’t even taking the survey fleets escorts into account!

[Phoenix-D]

PES, I'm thinking that the sheer size is going to make it unplayable, just from the scroll you'd have to do to see all the system.

[Kana]

Certainly a different form of SEV...

[President_Elect_Shang]

@ P-D: Thanks for the input; I already thought of that too. Like I said before I will start there and adjust downward till I find a happy medium.

@ Kana: Well I did say in the opening post this wasn’t another mod. It is a true TC = Total Conversion!

[Derek]

I tried to do a conversion back in the days of SE 4 that was based off the Starfire books (not necessarily the game) It was called Derek's Mod (alternately Dave's Mod)

Are you going to try and model things like the bug shuttles as ships larger than fighters, can warp, but can also be carried by carrier type ships, as well as other things like external mount missiles, and some other neat things?

Dave

[President_Elect_Shang]

Everything is already in the components. The only items not working right now are EDM’s which I had to convert to ED Field Generators. Those will work once a bug in how bonuses are applied is corrected. You are referring to gunboats and I left them out. I could include them at a later time and only left them out because when I started playing the gunboat did not exist. When it was introduced it created a huge imbalance in the game and I wound up tossing them out of the rules. I think they have been fixed but have not used them. A lot of the missile types were left out since SE5 uses abstract ammo. I could have created them as a type of drone and made non-sprint missile launchers fire them. If you tried this mod in SE4 you already know what is wrong with that approach; A LOT! If there are other things you would like to know about in specific feel free to ask. For example the Interstellar Command Center is out, the Courier Drone, both the half sized engines, and a few others.

Oh yes External Ordinance Weapons are in, tested, and they work better than I ever hoped for! As is the X-Ray Laser used by the Thebians, Pinnace, and SBMHAWK both of which are warp capable. Many of the Datalink systems are out as they just couldn’t be modeled enough to make it worth while. If during testing or after release players table ideas to how items left out could be included I would certainly be willing to add them. Also I intend to do house rules even for solo or MP games upon request if provided all the necessary stats.

I wish I had known you were working on this mod for SE4. I had an entire thread dedicated to the project here and eventually it wound up dying. Too many items were lost due to SE4 restrictions and I felt the spirit of the game had been lost with them. I also had one or two hard core SF fans who kept insisting things had to be “this way” (as in by the book) or not at all. One last item not working are the four versions of LT. I built them in but need another patch and then they will work as in canon.

Edited in: Do we know each other from the Rigelian Diaries with Steve?

[Fyron]

Kana said:
I wonder how much processing that is going to eat up, and how the orbits will be affected?

When I was testing it, I couldn't make systems 4 or 5 times the stock size without getting the frame rates to drop below 1 FPS. 3x size was strenuous too. I found that for my machine, 2.5x size increase was optimal.

[Atrocities]

So because of this the chances for an SE V version of FQM are also limited right?

[President_Elect_Shang]

I have gotten a 66x66 hex map of a huge galaxy to generate and display very quickly. I forgot to check the time but it was under two minutes with 255 systems set as max. Scroll speed and FPS showed no lag at all. So the problem you were having [Fyron] was probably related to another issue that has already been fixed. The only problem I encountered was a zoom out issue. The map was so large I had to scroll to get to the other side. I am about to take a look and see if that can be adjusted (as with combat) but before I go does anyone know if there is a setting for that?

For the record: <font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
System Width In Hexes := 66
System Height In Hexes := 66
System Point Radius From Center := 1353.0
</pre><hr />

[Derek]

Cool!

It was quite a while ago that I did this, probably around 2000/2001 or so. Also, I never actually played Starfire, only read the fiction books, and researched it on the web.

Also, very awesome about the SBMHAWK's, I had been wondering about those. As for warp points, and warping, have you figured out anyway to simulate the massive warp point defenses, and the simultaneous transfers (resulting in some interspersed/destroyed ships), or does the SE5 engine not allow anything like that? I have not played SE5 very extensively, I am waiting for the bugs to get worked out, and I definitely have not done any modding at all for SE5 yet.

Oh, and I'm not on the Rigellan Diaries, so no to the last question.

Dave



President_Elect_Shang said:
Everything is already in the components. The only items not working right now are EDM’s which I had to convert to ED Field Generators. Those will work once a bug in how bonuses are applied is corrected. You are referring to gunboats and I left them out. I could include them at a later time and only left them out because when I started playing the gunboat did not exist. When it was introduced it created a huge imbalance in the game and I wound up tossing them out of the rules. I think they have been fixed but have not used them. A lot of the missile types were left out since SE5 uses abstract ammo. I could have created them as a type of drone and made non-sprint missile launchers fire them. If you tried this mod in SE4 you already know what is wrong with that approach; A LOT! If there are other things you would like to know about in specific feel free to ask. For example the Interstellar Command Center is out, the Courier Drone, both the half sized engines, and a few others.

Oh yes External Ordinance Weapons are in, tested, and they work better than I ever hoped for! As is the X-Ray Laser used by the Thebians, Pinnace, and SBMHAWK both of which are warp capable. Many of the Datalink systems are out as they just couldn’t be modeled enough to make it worth while. If during testing or after release players table ideas to how items left out could be included I would certainly be willing to add them. Also I intend to do house rules even for solo or MP games upon request if provided all the necessary stats.

I wish I had known you were working on this mod for SE4. I had an entire thread dedicated to the project here and eventually it wound up dying. Too many items were lost due to SE4 restrictions and I felt the spirit of the game had been lost with them. I also had one or two hard core SF fans who kept insisting things had to be “this way” (as in by the book) or not at all. One last item not working are the four versions of LT. I built them in but need another patch and then they will work as in canon.

Edited in: Do we know each other from the Rigelian Diaries with Steve?

[Phoenix-D]

Se5 covers simultaneous transits quite nicely, actually. You have to order them manually using warp transit order commands for fleets, and in stock there's a 10% chance of inter penetration.

[Derek]

Cool. Like I said, I haven't played SE5 much, still waiting for the bugs to get worked out.

[President_Elect_Shang]

As P-D said SE5 handles that nicely enough with the only exception being there is no way to simulate coming to a readiness state; so all the defenders are ready all the time. That is a small hick-up that doesn’t really rob from the game since (as I’m sure you recall from the books) the attackers should have a brief moment were there systems are getting over the effects of a warp jump and they can’t engage. In the end the two balances out since neither is a factor. Also you may recall from the books the chance for interpenetration seems a bit higher than 10%. It is actually 30% and I have adjusted (modded) this into the game, it was an easy one line change. Did you read Insurrection? You may recall the Terran Rim Federation used an un-Godly weapon called the Heavy Bombardment Missile Launcher. &lt;cue evil laughter&gt; He-He-He-He…

I can’t find a line that controls the zoom out so I am going to try it at 55x55 and then 44x44. What I may end up having to do is cut ice planets out. By canon they are far out there and it takes a significant amount of time to complete a round trip. Also they can’t be settled but the moons can be under extreme conditions so settling them is only useful when you trying to set up an observation outpost for those once in a blue moon warp points that appear that far out and actually connect to something meaningful. Most games I played ignored them completely anyway. Still cutting the system down to 55x55 is only 20.8% of the actual area and that means (strictly by the book) most planets in the sixth orbit and all planets from the seventh orbit ring out will be removed. Then again if I was going strictly by the books over half the components would have been tossed out already. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Derek]

Oh, I remember the HBM's. I modeled those just by taking cap missiles in SE4 and making them much more damaging, and much, much longer ranges. Of course, the launchers were really bug.

I was able to somehow get the AI to use them occasionally, and extra long range missile duels became quite interesting!

As for the interpenetration, that works great, and yes, you are right, it does more or less cancel each other out (readiness vs warp disorientation)

Datalinks could be modeled by giving ships components that increase the entire fleets defense percentage, but making them extra large, so that it is only cost effective to give them to one or two ships in a fleet... Not perfect, but should come close. Also not sure if this is possible under SE5, I think it was under SE4.

Gunboats shouldn't be too hard to do at some point in the future, either. The warp capability is going to be the sticking point, I think.

[Phoenix-D]

The datalink thing is possible in SE5; see the Golden Eclipse mod for an example.

Units can be made warp-capable in SE5. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Phoenix-D]

Post deleted by Phoenix-D

[Derek]

Dayum! So much possible in 5 that wasn't in 4! I'm verrrrrra happy 'bout that!

[President_Elect_Shang]

Another update with my expansion of the system hex. I found out that if you want to keep the map looking “right” (as opposed to box-ish) you need to make the width 130% the height. Naturally that means more real-estate to play with when making out systems. My final testing came out with a 62x48 map and 984 radius from center. So I came to about the same map size as Fyron but for aesthetic reasons. As noted before the slow FPS seems to have of been related to another issue which was fixed by one the patches between his testing and mine (v1.20). That is 18% of the SF system map, I should be able to include most all planets but a few of the larger systems will be put on a diet. Fair compromise in my book for now, I will decide what I want to do when I get to that point as I do have a few ideas bouncing around. One thing at a time!

I think I am getting everyone confused, my bad. I have datalink, what I meant to say is that don’t have all the version in canon because there is no similar SE5 ability. The big thing is the blind spot and firing arcs, neither one SE5 has and that was really what later generations of Datalink were for overcoming. Also gunboats are way to easy and I can make them like did the SBMHAWK Pods or even the Pinnace which was a for-runner of the gunboat line. The difference is the Pinnace couldn’t deliver the punch of a small ship and that is way to powerful for such a small and cheap ship to be able to accomplish. A squadron sure, but the early gunboat could take out destroyers one on one with the right weapons load. And as I said I haven’t looked to see how they have been adjusted since those early days.

[Kana]

Well you have already fudged many things to get them to fit the SEV mold. You could include your vision of gunboats, that arent quite as powerful...

[President_Elect_Shang]

Think of those egg rolls you always seem to get suckered into eating. You know the ones. Normal egg rolls are good and these aren’t really *bad* there just not you know… normal. You know you will have to eat them sooner or later or risk offending the person who bought/brought them but you still manage to put it off for just one more minute. Well to me GB are like those egg rolls. I am sure I will have to build them in and I already know from just reviewing them they will need to be fudged a little, but if I could just wait one more minute…

Now off to play deity; and Ed said “Let there be light” and he started typing in the stars…

[Spectarofdeath]

One question, are you planning on making different shipsets for the races or just using stock?

Either way, cant wait for this to be released.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Ship sets? Holy Crap Batman I can’t do those. Well not right now, I would have to learn it from scratch. Unless someone with those skills did it for this TC I wouldn’t hold my breath. Depending on the AI, scripting the events, solar system, and bugs after release I may start working on learning how to make ship sets by late 07 to early 08. Speaking of which once I get solar systems moded this thing will be ready for a limited Beta run test.

[Kana]

Yaa!!!! Beta !!!!!

[President_Elect_Shang]

Thanks to some help I have worked through the last few bugs in the generation of the planets. Now I need to adjust the sensors, build the system layouts and the beta will be ready; if you are interested can PM me. Depending on how many want to test this out I may be turning people away.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I am canceling the galaxy creation step and going straight to testing. It seems the creation process as it works now is useless. PM me if you would like to test.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I need conformation that generational components are phasing out. Since the latest patch I have noticed that I don’t need to reload SE5 to get the components to phase out when they are supposed to.

[Phoenix-D]

Can't confirm. My Frigate with a requirement of level &lt; 2 and my DUC with a requirement of Projectile Weapons &lt; 2 both required a reload to show up.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I would like to take a look at those if you don't mind. I have never had a problem with items showing up for build and use (both my hull types and components) my problem has always been getting them to go away when they are replaced by an improved version. Do I understand you right that you can't get your hull and component to appear for use? No I'm sure I am misunderstanding you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

Phoenix-D said:
Can't confirm. My Frigate with a requirement of level &lt; 2 and my DUC with a requirement of Projectile Weapons &lt; 2 both required a reload to show up.



So you want the FG and DUC to appear when you have reached level 3 or higher in their respective fields? Why did you set them like that?

[Phoenix-D]

I misspoke. They don't -disappear-.

[Kana]

Currently found things...

Small CQ is it supposed to be 10kt? Or is it supposed to be 5kt...? Otherwise it seems useless...

How about adding a Small LS Hold? Unless I havent gotten that far in the tech tree yet?

Also Magazines are not counting towards the cargo space requirement...unless I didnt add enough of them?

Also once I get my teeth into the mod, I will seriously consider writting an Ophiuchi AI...

[President_Elect_Shang]

Small CQ: You can read about it here in the entry dated 2401.2 (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=482962&amp;page=0&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1) but in a nut shell it is a 10kT system which provides life support and crew quarters. Are you adding life support on top of the Small CQ? Shame on you, didn't you notice the warning for life support and crew quarters disappear when you placed the Small CQ? Anyway there is no need for a small LS hold. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Magazines count toward the cargo space requirement but they do not provide cargo space for storing items. They are magazines for ammo only. The key here is "A Magazine counts towards cargo space requirements." That means that a player can build fleet colliers without having to spend valuable tonnage on cargo holds to meet the requirement on freighter hulls.

[Kana]

President_Elect_Shang said:
Small CQ: You can read about it here in the entry dated 2401.2 (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=482962&amp;page=0&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1) but in a nut shell it is a 10kT system which provides life support and crew quarters. Are you adding life support on top of the Small CQ? Shame on you, didn't you notice the warning for life support and crew quarters disappear when you placed the Small CQ? Anyway there is no need for a small LS hold. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Yeah I went an looked at my SF book, and read the entry on SCQ, I didnt notice it in game, but I guess I might have overlooked it...NP.


President_Elect_Shang said:
Magazines count toward the cargo space requirement but they do not provide cargo space for storing items. They are magazines for ammo only. The key here is "A Magazine counts towards cargo space requirements." That means that a player can build fleet colliers without having to spend valuable tonnage on cargo holds to meet the requirement on freighter hulls.



Yeah but how much to they contribute to the cargo space requirement. I added some Mags to a design, and the requirement didnt dissappear...I fool with it some more...

Also can you tell me the scale you using for structure/spaces, damage, etc...? I'm pretty sure I'm following it, but I want to make sure...Either here or in a PM?

[President_Elect_Shang]

The scale is taken from canon x10. So taking the Qs for example it is 1HS converted to the mod is 10HS (1*10). As for the cargo problem you are having I think I know what it may be. You are getting the cargo storage requirement mixed up with the cargo hold restriction. So lets take a freighter for example (because all freighters have both). If you read the two relevant freighter requirements they are:

1: This vehicle must have at least 40% of its hull dedicated to cargo storage.
2: All vehicles must have at least 1 cargo hold for itself.

Those are two separate elements. In #1 you need anything that has cargo storage or that counts toward cargo storage. In the second you must have a Cargo Hold or Small Cargo Hold.

[Kana]

You are probably correct...but it easy to confuse the concept...

As for damage, I'm not sure if your using a scale...I'll make some notes as I play, and we can disucss some ideas/concepts later...

[President_Elect_Shang]

Kana said:
As for damage, I'm not sure if your using a scale...



Yes, depending on what edition you are using it should match what is in the game. There will be some differences because of the flexibility SE5 allowed me when assigning damage over ranges. However, the base range at damage is from canon x10.

[Randallw]

I am currently reading "In Death ground". I got "The Shiva Option" years ago and read IDG once from the library but I decided to use Christmass money to buy the first one.

I'd love to see how Closed warppoints are handled.

I always imagine Bug warships to look like this
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i186/Randallw_2006/aod_portrait_battlecruiser.jpg

[President_Elect_Shang]

I couldn't model closed warp points for several reasons. Off the top of my head; The AI will still path even if a warp point is given a "cloak" sort of ability/effect. Any player that comes out at the closed end of a warp point still won't be able to see it, they would need to write down its location and keep track of it that way. That would be a pain in the butt! Also a player can cheat to find closed wp's the same way the AI would, just give a ship movement orders and wait to see if it passes through the closed end of a wp.

That's a nice model, if you are feeling generous I could really use some art and beta testing help. An opening logo or even ship sets would be too sweet. As it stands now I am using stock items and not looking at learning the art side until later next year. Can I still say next year with only an hour and ten minutes left or should I say this year? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Derek]

Oh, by the way, as soon as I can get SE5 working on my computer, I wouldn't mind helping you with beta.

Dave

[President_Elect_Shang]

PM me once you get it up and running.

[President_Elect_Shang]

In case you haven't noticed I have started a story line based on this mod. The story is called simply enough "Empires" (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=482962&amp;page=0&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1). If you have read the books but never played the game most items won't ring a bell at this point. I think Crusade is the first book in the story line chronologically. The books themselves aren't in order with the game history. Anyway if you have Crusade that takes place around High Tech 6 and the Tal-Re Republic; which the story line revolves around, is only high tech 1 right now.

[Randallw]

I didn't make that ship, it's from the SE4 Army of Darkness set, that's just how I always imagine them, rectangular with sensor spires, but with a vaguely organic look.

Edit: A new book came out a few weeks ago. Aliens with STL city ships discover the allies but consider them unintelligent because they communicate differently.

http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/1416520988/ref=pd_rvi_gw_1/105-5226699-0228445

[President_Elect_Shang]

I heard about that book around spring '06. I am a little worried since Webber isn't working on the project. White didn't start working with Weber till after Weber had remade StarFire back when it was still owned by TFG. Besides White's writing style can get a little *ahem* tedious. It's still published by Bean which of small comfort to me. I have read the synopsis that comes with the book and it sounds too much like an attempt to remake the glory days of crusade. A race of zealots that are willing to sacrifice themselves in the name of a cause... The more I think of it the more I think I will pass this one up. Although it does make me wonder what type of Uber-technology they will write into this book. I doubt White will have been concerned with any of the "gaming" aspects. At least Weber made valiant attempts to keep the new books in perspective with what players could add to the game.

[Kana]

If I remember correctly there arent closed warp points, but one-way warp points are possible...I believe this was possible in SEIV, so you would assume it might be possible in SEV, of course I have not proof to either of these statements...

[President_Elect_Shang]

SE5 has one-way wp too, although I haven't toyed with them to see if they are working or not. I don't recall them working in SE4; however, I never tried them out. One way wp would never work anyway. The obvious problem is that you can lose an entire fleet if you jump and can't get back home.

Edited: I said closed when I meant one-way

[Kana]

Well if you could do one-way, and closed/invisible Warp Points would be very SF, and if you could get them to work it would be cool...

[President_Elect_Shang]

You will have to flesh that idea out for me a little more. One way wp aren't in StarFire and closed wp won't work unless the path finding hard code can be changed to only use wp it has actually seen. Once that is fixed it is just a matter of figuring a way to make closed wp hidden but still visible once used. Hum, that will be a challenge I can't see a way around right now. I am thinking that will only be possible if a new ability is built into the program. An ability which would allow modders to flip the visibility of things off and on by using a trigger event.

Anyway I have not herd from you or Derek for bugs. However, I wanted to warn you both that the TC uses reproduction rates more on par with reality. As opposed to the rates stock SE5 uses; which is closer to bunnies on Spanish fly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif So if you notice those colony ships are draining your home planet dry guess what? They are; slow down. This is an Epic TC. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Kana]

I havent had much time recently...I'm also hoping Devnull will put out a new editor that works with current SEV patch. I ran it to look at some of the data files for SFTC and Standard SEV, and it actually said there were some errors on some of the entries for formulas and what not...which I dont know if that is right or not...I guess it will come up a bugs while playing...

[President_Elect_Shang]

I couldn't use DevNulls Editor either. I tried it back early in the release and noticed that some of the formulas for weapons were causing errors. The example that comes to mind is the laser. I think it is because the weapon damage curve is outside the predictable gradient that the editor wants. What I am sure of is that it is not errors in my formulas, don't mean to so arrogant but that is the fact. I am sure my formulas are correct and it is his editor that doesn't agree with what amounts to SF canon. So SFTC; I kind of like that but are you referring to this or your SFB project? If you don't mind I think I will borrow that for this TC. I am still looking to change the name and open to ideas. I would like to keep the SF portion though. Maybe Star-Fire, or Stars on Fire, Stars of Fire. Maybe something altogether new? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[Phoenix-D]

The editor doesn't work with rather complex formulas because they'd be a pain for Devnull to parse in the same way SE5 does. You can just input them manually then save, ignoring errors.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Phoenix-D said:
The editor doesn't work with rather complex formulas because they'd be a pain for Devnull to parse in the same way SE5 does. You can just input them manually then save, ignoring errors.



There you go Kana, I knew my formulas were right! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

So P-D what do you think of the story line so far? I had thought about starting a discussion thread for it here in this forum. Then I figured nah, I can't tell how much it is getting read or how much the readers are getting into it. Starting a thread for discussing the story seemed rather vain after giving some actual thought. Still I would appreciate any comments... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Spectarofdeath]

Do you have a pre-made map or is it a random generated one? Because One way warps were pretty rare, not to mention hard to find. You could add them in and make them invisible to regular sensors so that you wouldn't find them until later in the game once you get the right tech. And the further along the path the less the component costs and room it takes. Eventually you would just need the component on every ship, so the final version of the component would cost very little and take up no space at all but be limited to one per ship. As for losing your whole fleet, that would just be a part of the game, after all, you wouldn't lose it (unless you stumble into a enemy sector) but would still have control of it, and could even start to colonize the hidden sectors. Of course you wouldn't be able to send reinforcements back to your original sectors (until you find another wp back)but then, these sectors are just starting out and wouldn't have a major industrial base yet and you shouldn't be sending your biggest fleet through a wp that you don't know whats on the other side. I seem to recall a mod for SEIV that had nebulas all around the edge of the map of the sector that obscured the views (plus you can't just look to find it) and you had to explore the entire edge of the map to find the sectors. I had a idea of once a B5, ST, BSG and other mods come out to make a map basically dividing the map into sectors, each sector is like a map on its own. Think of 4 quadrants, Alpha Quadrant has all the ST races, Beta Q has B5, Gamma has BSG and so on. Now in certain sectors there would be a wp to a middle sector, sorta like a neutral zone, with nothing in (except maybe a black hole) So once you take over your entire quadrant, you still have to fight all the other mods. Of course this was and still is all just a idea and hypothetical but I would think the closed wp could be done.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Creating a wp that is cloaked would be no problem really. The problem is in the path finding. The closed wp would only work in an all human game and then only if all the humans agreed to not cheat. Even then it would be no problem to find the closed wp and claim that you didn't cheat. "Me? I didn't cheat! How was I supposed to know there was a closed wp there? I told my ship to go back to the home system and it plotted its own path through the wp I swear!" In games with an AI forget about it. There is absolutely no way to tell SE5 "this wp is closed and you can't use it until you have gone through from the open side". It is simply not possible unless Aaron changes the hard code. As for the one way wp they are doable and the frequency is easily changed. However, there are no one way wp in SF so I will leave that one for another mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Spectarofdeath]

Wasn't there a WP opens and closes feature in SEIV that could potentially mimick it?

[Kana]

SFTC=StarFireTotalConversion

As for the editor and the formulas, the only way for that to get better I guess is to provide the formulas that do work to Devnull and maybe he can somehow put them in...Of course I'm no programmer, so I don't know what is really involved in the error checking. It just would be nice if we had a tool that confirmed if it was a good or bad formula...some of them can be a bit complex...

[President_Elect_Shang]

Spectarofdeath said:
Wasn't there a WP opens and closes feature in SEIV that could potentially mimick it?


There is; however, it is an ability for a component. Therefore if a ship mounts the component they can use it in any system wherever they are at the time. Closed wp are like the current wp in SE5 except they are only visible from one side. The other side is not visible but in all other ways is a normal wp. Now that I think of it mimicking a SF closed wp is no more difficult than changing the wp pic to no pic at all. Pic or no pic the path finding code doesn't care.


Kana said:
As for the editor and the formulas, the only way for that to get better I guess is to provide the formulas that do work to Devnull and maybe he can somehow put them in...



If he asks I will be more than happy to give him a copy. The only reason I am keeping the SFTC (I really like that) as a closed Beta is because I know there are problems and I have to wait for Aaron to patch SE5 first. Also as I mentioned in the PM there are experimental components that I am not sure SE5 will implement the way I want. Theoretically it should, but fact is; sometimes theory doesn't hold true. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

[Kana]

And I think I know which ones those are...I was wondering if they would work myself...currently I'm betting no, but I am hopeful...

[President_Elect_Shang]

You and me both; knock on wood! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

[Spectarofdeath]

So in other words the AI would see the wp but a human player wouldn't know unless he was actually on top of it? That really sucks that MM didn't at least add that ability into the game, it adds a brand new dimension to the game.

Is it possible to make a event where you open a WP and at the end of the turn it closes itself somehow? You could make the WP opener EXTREMLY expensive and so big that it takes a battleship to hold it and thats all the ship can hold. And I know this would unbalance the mod, I'm just asking if it's possible to do this (and the reason I want the event to close it is so when the AI if it gets that far doesn't need to worry about closing the WP's behind them).

[Derek]

Hey, P_E, sorry I haven't gotten back to you yet; something came up at work that I have been required to take care of. I have delved a little into the beta, however, and mostly what I have seen has been minor grammatical errors, for exaple, in the descriptions of the gov't's, there are a number of sports that you used "form" when it should have been "from"

Beyond that, the picture for the Sprint mode missile looks like a gun, and is titled "Basic Gun", but it is described as a missile. In combat it appears to operate like a DUC. Did you mean for this to be that way?

Dave

[Kana]

Yeah the sprint missile is basically a 'gun'. The missiles travel so fast, they can't be intercepted by point defense. Sprint missiles are fired traditional from the 'Gun'. In Star Fire, they could also be fired from other missile launchers, but you can't set up SEV to be able to use different munitions for one launcher. I like to think of the sprint/Gun as a rail gun type of thing...

[President_Elect_Shang]

@SoD: Yes it is possible to create a component just like you are describing. I believe they did just that in the SE4 B5 Mod. Sounds to me like you thinking up your own mod. You may need to put together a team to help you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I could script an event like that; however, it wouldn't close at the end of the turn. It would have to be one event to open and one event to close. And then it might not close the one that was opened. It could close any wp anywhere. The path problem isn't just the AI. Next time you play a game watch the quadrant map. When you see that two system (system A &amp; C)that you have entered are connected by a third system (System B) you haven't explored tell a ship in system A to go to System C. Even though you don't know where the wp are chances are good your ship will path to the hidden wp cross the system to the other hidden wp and pop out in system C. So you see the problem is all around, not just with the AI. AI and players use the same path finding code when giving their ships orders.

@Derek: I understand, my wife is a CPT in the Army and I am ex-Army so I know how that goes. Those errors are perfect. If you can send me the names of the ones in question I will proof read them again. Wonderful I am expecting more of those type of errors than any others. For the "Gun" weapon line that is right. In combat they look like direct fire weapons because I wrote them that way. However the effects they have are those of missile weapons. All a Sprint missile is in SF is a missile which is traveling to fast for any form of PD to stop. It is still a Nuclear weapon and against a target with no working engines has the effects all nuclear weapons do. Basically just what Kana said!

[Suicide Junkie]

If it is going too fast for PD to stop... then it dosen't need a warhead at all.

Relativity means that a nuke won't add a significant amount of energy to the resulting blast...

[Phoenix-D]

Not exactly SJ. Starfire drives act a bit weirdly- once the drive goes down, all the velocity it brings with it goes away.

Combine that with the fact that you don't have to get to near-light speed, just fast enough to get by the PD.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Uh? What does that have to do with SF and the sprint mode missile line?

[President_Elect_Shang]

Ok, drive field class 101.

There are two lines of missiles. (1) Standard Mode are very long ranged and travel slow enough for P-D to get a targeting solution and/or saturate the area to hit the offending missile. (2) Sprint Mode fire and go like bats out of hell. They are moving so fast that interception is not possible. With Standard Mode they have much greater range over Sprint (double at starting level) because they track there own target. So they share guidance with warhead with drives. Sprint Mode are short ranged but can't be stopped with P-D; however, they carry no self guidance so they miss. They share warhead space with a massive drive to move much faster than Standard mode missiles can.

Now the Drive Field and why it is important. Think of the drive field like the surface of a pond. Solid objects hit the surface and pass through but the faster the object is moving the harder the impact. Both missile types are moving so fast that when they hit the drive field it would render them useless. To get around this they are dueled fused. The first fuse is proximity. The missile sees the drive field and detonates. The second is delayed impact. If there is no drive field the missile cruises on till it hits something then goes boom. After a hart beat or two that is. In terms of the hard mod numbers the difference is a working engine reduces "Missile" type damage by -90%.

[Spectarofdeath]

Ahhh ok, damn that sucks. I belive a couple of people have said that MM might make a expansion, lets hope and pray he adds that the ability to have one way wps if he does. I hadn't thought of that, now I know what you mean, once you enter a system you see on the quadrant map all the sectors that it's connected to even if you haven't explored them so you would know there is a hidden wp. I didn't think about that because mainly I haven't played SEV at all. Stock just leaves so much to be desired. Going from SEIV with mods to stock SEV is like going from steak to hotdogs.

Edit: So are we able to make a wp that will only allow a certain size ship through yet?

[Spectarofdeath]

I seem to recall in the bug novel (been about 5 yrs since I read it so can't remember which one it was) the resistance on the planets had kinetic rocket launchers and it stated that the weapon was so fast that it didn't need any kind of warhead. Granted, this was for surface combat and I know that obviously the two types of combat are different. Plus I remember a little about the drive fields.

[Derek]

Ok, sounds good for the sprint modes. I had thought in one of the novels they did come up with a way for PD to work, or at least something similiar to PD, but I could be wrong. Either way, it works well.

When I get home, I will try and get a list of the typos I have found so far.

[President_Elect_Shang]

@SoD: That was in Crusade (can you tell I'm a fanatic) and that worked on planets yes. Then again drive fields don't work on planets so there you go. There was a branch off to 3rd Edition SF called Alkelda Dawn which came out around 94'. They used kinetic weapons which caused a lot of problems in game mechanics with drive fields. And Alkelda Dawn engines did not use drive fields so there were game balance problems when confronted with the SF nukes. In a nut shell without a drive field to detonate nukes prematurely Alkelda Dawn ships got creamed by direct hit after direct hit. As for Kinetic weapons did you read my surface of a pond analogy? Well water will eventually give way to the object that is hitting it but drive fields don't; they just keep bending. So imagine what happens when an object traveling at near c hits a drive field...

@Derek: Sorry but no; to the very best of my knowledge I have never heard of a P-D system that could stop Sprint Mode missiles. Looking forward to the list, you can PM me here if that is easier. I am expecting MANY of those type of mistakes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

[Randallw]

In the bug novels they have shaped-antimatter (yes I know, the book spends some time explaining). When they have to finally invade a planet, rather than just nuke it into hell, the Star Union comes up with an idea no one thought of. Kinetic missiles with drive fields used for ground assault. Imagine a solid piece of whatever impacting the ground at the speed of light.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Randallw said:
...they have shaped-antimatter...


I know, I know; but I put them into the mod anyway. I try to think "handwavium" and avoid the headache.


Randallw said:
Kinetic missiles with drive fields used for ground assault.


I will have to look back through that book again. I don't recall that weapon having a drive field pushing it. I thought it was a re-hash of the Crusade kinetic weapon. I could be wrong, thanks for pointing that out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Randallw]

I shall go check, but it is a space based weapon. Converted freighters sit in orbit, and when the bugs show themselves they launch a missile from orbit. It looks like a fictional laser beam. A blazing line that blasts though the atmosphere and then annihilates the target.

KISS: Kinetic Interdiction Strike System.
Upscale of the HVM, Hypervelocity Missile, a Kinetic missile propelled by a small drive coil. Projectiles are emplaced in space and then the drive coils activated going instantaneously to just under a tenth of light speed (c). Each strike releases the energy of a tactical nuclear warhead but precisely targeted and without radioactive contamination.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I remember that now!!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

I could mod that in and the damage would be the same as a nuke. I would need to adjust all nuke using weapons to do something nasty if used on planets but what would be the point? The AI won't care about that so it would be a matter of role playing. In which case I don't need to do anything but add the weapon and let the players enjoy. Since we are talking about that I have been toying with a few other ground centered combat units. The problems I have are (1) I can't do pictures for those units and (2) I want to stick with canon until the SFTC gets on its feet. Then I won't mind taking it in new directions based on suggestions and feedback. If only I could turn this thing lose! At the rate Aaron is patching problems I am starting to think this thing wont be ready for another year. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif

[Kana]

President_Elect_Shang said:
Then again drive fields don't work on planets so there you go.



I disagree...according to what I just read in my SF rulebook...you cant have shields on a planet, but you can have a drivefield. That is if you actually have an atmosphere capable ship or build one on the plant, but I dont think that applies in SEV.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Thanks Kana I believe you are right! Actually I wasn't thinking of shields I was thinking of tractors. They generate a drive field and are targeted like beams and no beam may interact with a target in atmosphere. I have no idea how I made the leap from tractors to engines in atmosphere... However, as you point out that doesn't apply in SE5 anyway.

Now to change focus a little. I made the comment below that I think it will be about a year before Aaron patches what I need to get the SFTC working. I was half joking but started to really think about it. What I thought of was; I might start working on a near canon version that will work with SE5. So I wanted a little input, should I bother to or just hold out? If I make a near canon version; lets call it NCSF Mod how much will that hurt the real deal?

[Phoenix-D]

It'd be best to outline just what the problem is first..

[President_Elect_Shang]

I did in a detailed letter to Aaron. You know the problem as I have spoke with you to help find a fix. It is the generational; or lack there of, problem with the components. I would have to make a lot of trial and error attempts at formulas. Most weapons are next generation developments but use a completely different to-hit formula so I would have to figure out some formula to mimic them based on levels. I know one of the writers of the 3rd edition rules and I think he may have all that on hand but if he doesn't... I am an Anthropologist not a mathematician. And that is only the tip of the proverbial ice burg. I think i will go get some orange tea with honey, would any of you like one while I'm up?

[Spectarofdeath]

Honestly....whatever gets it released soonest!!! I hate stock. I dont know why, I never had a problem getting into stock games before MOO2 but after that....it just has to be something I'm familiar with otherwise I just can't get into it. I think it's because I have so much sci-fi nonsense organized into my memory that trying to rememeber any more storylines will make my head explode. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

One of the big challenges to making this mod progressive (as in SE5 style component progression) was the problem of weapons using different to-hit formulas at different levels. I couldn't get the formulas to step up smoothly. If anyone has ever seen the SF weapon charts they will know what I mean. I have just tested; successfully, level dependent to-hit formulas. Here is a copy and paste for my other modders to look over. You will notice I only did this for a weapon using two formulas. It can be done with more conditions by nesting the to-hit formula in a "Master" iif statement. I can make this mod into a progression style. It will diverge from canon and it is to early to tell how much. For starters tech lines won't be totally dependent on High Tech. For example the Basic Gun is an Industrial 2 tech and the next step up is a High Tech 2 item; two levels removed. With progressive style (SE5 style) you will be able to develop the second and all other levels while you are still at Industrial 2. I am going to try this and hope that all will balance. For example it won't do you much good to develop the higher tech weapons without the larger hulls which is governed by your High Tech level. Also some items, such as Force Beams won't even come open to research until you attain the High Tech level to open the field. Kana, your thoughts please.


Weapon Space To Hit Modifier Formula := 0 + iif(([%Level%] &lt;= 1), iif([%Range%] &lt; 30, 90, iif([%Range%] &lt; 60, 80, iif([%Range%] &lt; 70, 70, iif([%Range%] &lt; 80, 60, iif([%Range%] &lt; 90, 50, iif([%Range%] &lt; 100, 30, iif([%Range%] &lt; 110, 10, 0))))))), iif([%Range%] &lt; 30, 90, iif([%Range%] &lt; 60, 80, iif([%Range%] &lt; 70, 70, iif([%Range%] &lt; 80, 60, iif([%Range%] &lt; 90, 50, iif([%Range%] &lt; 100, 30, iif([%Range%] &lt; 210, 10, 0))))))))

Last thoughts: It isn't just the to-hit formulas that I need to fashion like the above. There are other elements such as damage at range and reload, and supplies used, and blah more, more, more. Also this is not an actual to-hit formula from the mod. Well it is but I copied and pasted then changed the last number to 210 so I could test the bloody thing. So please don't start asking why it looks so funny!

[Kana]

The whole thing on progression thing is only important, if you want to be able to sort the components by what is 'obsolete'. In SEIV, you could view obsolete weapons and then place them on a ship either to gift older tech to someone, or maybe some form of cheaper alternative, and many other strategies. The problem with the whole 'level' progression of components, there is no way to regress back to a lower level of a component, if you wanted to. So if you have a level 10 backscratcher, you can't go back and produce a level 1 backscratcher if you wanted to.

So if you want to go by the 'rulebook', then research will be relatively simple. You have the master Tech Area, which is the Tech Level, starting with the Industrials, and moving up to the High Tech, these open up the individual components and other Tech areas. Since all components only have one level you still have to research that one level to actually put the component into use. When its done you can use it, and it sticks around. If you have Basic Gun, and then get a high enough level to get Gun then you have access to both, because they are seperate areas of research, the Gun is better, and you will probably use it. Basically the looks exactly like what you have done for the SFTC. Now we just need the option to flag a component as obsolete manually, so that we have control what components we can see available to add to the hulls.

So my question is why do you even need levels in the formula? If the individual component doesnt need to get progressively better, or smaller, or cheaper, because a new and better one is high on the TL research track, then I don't see the need.

[President_Elect_Shang]

The progression thing is so I can get this mod out the door and share it. Generational is broken right now. You do have a great point about the backward engineering. The problem with that is the cluttered list of components it would create. It can't be sorted but the newest items will always be on the bottom. It would allow you to build an "older" tech ship to give to someone which is in canon anyway. So are you saying I should not be trying to phase the components out? Leave them in the component list so that you can build old or new tech system at will? You would be able to repair old also like that which the SFTC won't let you do right now. Going this route would be sticking with the Generational system (SE4) style which means I wouldn't need the level statements in the formulas. The level statements would be for a Progressive style only. Oh and as you pointed out with the current SE5 Progressive system you still can't backward engineer a ship. It is the latest tech or nothing at all; isn't it?

Give me the go-ahead and I will remove all the lines that are phasing components out. I think its a great idea!

[Kana]

Well its your mod, I say do what ever you feel best gives you the play you desire. Yes the components list will get cluttered, and it would be a simple enough fix by Aaron to allow us to add a flag to each component similar to the family thing in SEIV, and then be able to sort the component list, and only show the most recent techs, giving us the option to go back and use older components if we wish to.

For the HH mod, I will probably use Progression (levels), and for SFB mod, the route I will go will be more like what I propose for SFTC.

[President_Elect_Shang]

It is my mod but I respect and value your input; which is why I ask. I think I will go that approach. Other than that what is keeping this mod from being shared? Other ideas I would appreciate input on are these changes:

1. Minerals --&gt; MC
2. Radioactives --&gt; CP
3. kT --&gt; HS

[Kana]

The kT change would require you to go through and edit portions of the UI, because they are 'hardcoded' if I remember from something Cpt Kwok said.

I assume CP is crew points? I guess that would be cool, but crew is already tracked in game, we just need to pester Aaron to somehow allow us access to that 'resource'.

I'm ok with the Minerals=Mega Credits as well...Its just a matter of 'feeling it' within the constraints of SEV...

[President_Elect_Shang]

Good points. I am going to start off by removing the phase out portion of components. You will now be able to backward engineer ships for resale, gifting, repairing... whatever.

What about the other part of my question; what is keeping this from being shared? What is breaking the SFTC that I should not put it out as an open Beta?

[Kana]

Other than maybe knowledge of Starfire, and AI, I dont see any reason for you not to release it. I mean I missed the whole small quarters thing, but of course I may not have actually read the whole component entry...

[Derek]

Currently, I would say the Ai is the biggest thing, which is solvable by just making it more than clear for anyone that there is no Ai whatsoever, and that they can't even try and use the stock AI, because that causes it to crash (something I found out when I was trying it just to see what happens)

[President_Elect_Shang]

I did mark it on the start up screen that the AI is not working. I can also mention it when I post it here for download. It will take about two days to convert it over. Another item I will warn about is that there are experimental systems that may or may-not work. I will also do as SJ did and make it clear that this is an "Open Beta". Problems ranging from broken components to spelling errors are expected. Did you get that list by chance? I was wanting to try and include it as part of this update. That will be the last of the 0.11-B update. Then I will make the change over to 0.20-B which will be actual conversion from Phase Out Generational to Complete Line Generational. Hay, shoot me if you want but I am making these terms up as I go along you know. I am the first modder to do this so I get that privilege! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Also gentlemen let us start thinking of a proper name.

SFTC = S? F? Total Conversion

[President_Elect_Shang]

Hot off the press from Shadowstar I give you the SFTC opening screen. This is PERFECT!

Edit: I wanted to paste the image here but I think it must be to big? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[Kana]

President_Elect_Shang said:
Also gentlemen let us start thinking of a proper name.
SFTC = S? F? Total Conversion



Shang-Fire !!!!!

Also to give you an idea of what else takes up my time...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hhOXGJuddQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NxxzfR3tNU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQjYgxQQSEc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX-y_n25tY4

[Suicide Junkie]

President_Elect_Shang said:
Edit: I wanted to paste the image here but I think it must be to big? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

It is not the size per se, but the fact that it is a BMP.

BMPs are the worst thing you can send online... You should hit it with a JPG or PNG conversion before trying to post it uncompressed on the net.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Thanks SJ, as always your guidance and advice are invaluable. I have decided to go with the touched up one David E. Garvais did:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/486013-SFTCLogo.png

However; as I pointed out in the thread asking for help on this none of it would have been possible without Shadowstar.

Edit: Also I like David's suggestion of Solar Flare TC.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I have completed the conversion process and now all tech is forward phasing and retro-engineering is possible. However; to keep the components within there proper tech level I had to keep the dual restriction. Thus in the science window the components are still not displaying although they are still reading as "ready to be developed" when the specific tech area is clicked. Given this I have decided to create two versions of the SFTC. The one I have been working on will be the "by canon" hard core version. The second one will contain the spirit but be far more flexible. I will release both at the same time. Please if you have any bugs to report I need them ASAP. Now as for the name of the second version... well SFTC is already taken but this is still the SFTC right? So I have decided to call it:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/486074-SFTCLite.png

[Kana]

So PES, do you have copies of the Nexus Magazines that had articles on the older versions of Star Fire? I use to have almost all of them, and somehow they got lost in a move. Now I have like two, and only one has anything on Starfire, one of which is a good extended article on the Rigelians....which includes a large list of ship names, and a couple of other pictures of what they look like. Basically I ask, because there surely has to be similar articles on the other races...

[President_Elect_Shang]

Honestly I have a lot of stuff, I mean a lot! I do recall having a few Nexas laying around but I don't know which or where they are right now. Why? I assume you want to create a ship list of names for the empires? I am sure if you ask Steve or do an internet search you can come up with the names. That would be easier [to a copy and paste] than retyping.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Did I say 2 days till they were ready? Better add on a few more... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Atrocities]

What is SFTC?

[Hippocrates]

SFTC = Star Fire Total Conversion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

Hippocrates said:
SFTC = Star Fire Total Conversion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



That could be interpreted as copy right infringement. Or more likely based on "his" track record lots of threats of law suits. I am taking suggestions; however, as of right now I am going with:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f237/DavidGervais/ModLogo03.jpg

Which was suggested by our resident art guru David E. Gervias. I am pretty partial to that one and will most likely keep it. Besides it is the only suggestion I have received.

[Kana]

Kana said:

President_Elect_Shang said:
Also gentlemen let us start thinking of a proper name.
SFTC = S? F? Total Conversion



Shang-Fire !!!!!




But I really like the Solar Flare name...Solar=Star, Flare=Fire...

[President_Elect_Shang]

Now why didn't I see that; if it had been a snake... That's it than Solar Flare it is. The prize goes to David E. Gervais. You win a dozen cookies of your choice. Please PM Kana to claim our prize! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[David E. Gervais]

Why PM, I want my cookies in public, with fanfare and a medal! LOL

I thought the Solar Flare = Star Fire was obvious, that's why I didn't explain it. Oh well, I'm good at subtle and or obscure.

lol.

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

The SFTC (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=487279&amp;page=0&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1) and SFTC-Lite (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=487282&amp;page=0&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1) are now in the Scenarios and Mods sub-forum.

[Shadowstar]

Sure beats "Stinky Fred's Total Conversion", though I've heard that's not such a bad mod either... Or was that a dream?

[Randallw]

Any plans for a test game?. I'd be willing to try it out.

[President_Elect_Shang]

My first on-line game would be with my own Mod? This must be some kind of a new record. I have been saying I want to try an on-line game so I suppose this is the best chance. I get to bug test and play an on-line game. There are still experimental components that may not work as they should. However, I am still up for it. Someone would need to host and is there a set of instructions on "how to" process and submit your turn so I can know what to do? Finally which version would be played; the Full or Lite? I am playing a solo self vs self game of the Lite version now.

[Ironmanbc]

why go Lite when we can http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif KICK YOUR BUTT! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Injured.gif at full

[President_Elect_Shang]

ROFL, ya I'm not trying to fool myself into thinking I will win my first on-line game. I suspect I will get pounced pretty quickly. The Lite or Full version depends on what style of component progression you want.

SFTC Full = By "the book" style components in an SE4 style Generational progression. It allows you to retro build ships too. Let's say we have a treaty and I am two tech levels above you. You want me to build cream-of-the-crop warships and sell them to you for your use. I build the ships and tell you they are the best I can build. In fact they are fleet quality for my empire. In truth they may be two tech levels above you but are two tech levels below my real ability. You think they are top of the line because the only readings you have gotten of my ships are the pickets I let you see. Which are purposely two tech levels lower than my best. Keep in mind "tech levels" is just for example. Each High Tech level has sub-levels with various components.

SFTC Lite = This is SE5 style component progression. No retro-build unless I have completely missed that toggle button in the Empire screen.

Best to read the FAQ with each, that will give you a detailed description. Full version is going to allow you much more intricacy at the empire-to-empire level and empire level. Using the above example do you really want to picket your borders with the best of the best? Keep in mind this is an Open Beta. If problems are found in the game I can patch them then and there. There shouldn't be any "game breakers" if you know what I mean. I patch it and the turns won't work anymore. However; since it is still a Beta, I can't promise anything.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I have updated the heading description to clarify the difference between these two version of the same mod:

SFTC: The components progress in an SE4 fashion; that is they are Generational. This version structures progression and allows retro-construction of ships, bases, fighters, etc.

SFTC-Lite: The components progress in an SE5 fashion; that is they are Progressive. There is less structure in progression and no retro-construction.

Q: Ok PES but what is "retro-construction"?

A: Lets say we are allies and I am two "tech levels" above you. You are in a war and want to field ships with better technology for an added advantage to your forces. You pay me to design and build the best ships I can. I do and sell them to you as "fleet quality ships for my empire". In truth the ships are old technology for me even if they are new technology for you. That is retro-building. To the best of my knowledge this can't be done in SE5; unless I missed a toggle button.

[Hippocrates]

I'd be up for a test game to help sort out the bugs and such.

As for which version to play, I've always prefered Se4's ability to use older equipement in new designs, allowing for a much richer cost vs. benefit approach to ship design. That being said, SFTC Full, all the way!

[President_Elect_Shang]

I have to agree, the ability to fool your enemy and ally into thinking you are a technologically backward empire was one of the strongest motivators for making two versions. One version that I think is the proper way to play (SFTC) and one that fits mainstream SE5 (SFTC-Lite). The problem with SFTC is that you have to right click to find the next area for research. SE5 can't handle the call for two requirement tech areas. I have reported this problem to Aaron and it does not effect game play or the components in any way. For some reason it just stops the component picture from being displayed in the Science window.

[Kana]

President_Elect_Shang said:
My first on-line game would be with my own Mod? This must be some kind of a new record. I have been saying I want to try an on-line game so I suppose this is the best chance. I get to bug test and play an on-line game. There are still experimental components that may not work as they should. However, I am still up for it. Someone would need to host and is there a set of instructions on "how to" process and submit your turn so I can know what to do? Finally which version would be played; the Full or Lite? I am playing a solo self vs self game of the Lite version now.



Are we still having problems with PBW? I'm sure Geo would upload the files you need to play...If we use PBW, I would certainly considert playing as well...

[President_Elect_Shang]

I have no idea how it would work. You would have to ask Geo but I think he has all of that fixed now. Since I have never done this before I would have to be a follower. Someone else would need to be the GM or whatever they are called. I will give my full support to the GM to help them along and tell them how to best setup the game. So who ever feels like doing the leader part don't think I am sticking you out in the cold without even the slightest support.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Amongst the changes in the next patch will be the replacement of Minerals and all Mineral icons with "MC" for Mega Credit. How much is a MC, more than a buck less than infinity. Organics will remain unchanged using the default SE5 icon. Finally I am thinking of changing the Radioactives icon with a little figure of a person. I have no art skills so it may just be as simple as a stick figure. I will try to search the net and probably ask David if he can help me. The challenge is that it must be discernible as the figure of a person and still fit in an area no larger than 19x19 pixels. If all else fails I can always go with this == /threads/images/Graemlins/Running.gif. I seriously doubt David would even find this fun much less a challenge. I think I will PM him after this post as I don't want a person running, it looks dorky you know?

Anyway back on the Radioactives, or Personnel as they will be called. I am thinking of setting this to be the same as the number of crew that hull size calls for. So lets take a Destroyer for example. A DD requires 30 crew so the initial cost would be 30 Personnel and maintenance would be 4 or maybe 5 if SE5 rounds up. I'm not sure? This would reflect the initial crew for manning the ship and the maintenance would reflect the crew rotation. New members coming on board to replace those who have rotated to another ship or left the service, etc. Thoughts anyone?

[Kana]

I like the idea, considering it is like the table top game. Yet how does this interfact with SEV crew and control requirements? Do those thirty crew equal the number of crew SEV requires? Also since crew is taken from the population, how does this 'new' resource (crew/radioactives) correspond to the population of the plant?

[President_Elect_Shang]

I can tell its been a long time since you played. Crew from planets was cut in favor of streamlined rules. You just build and go now. They figured that since you must have a supporting population medium size or larger to build ships the crew you need will be there already.

SE5 Crew and Control are set by me. Take a look at SJ's GGMod. He has a very complex crew system. As for the crew/planet portion of your question I don't know of anyway to tie the two together outside of the fact you need to build facilities. Limiting the crew points to only the system they are produced in is not possible. SE5 will not restrict the ability the SpacePort uses. In other words I can't tell it to ship only organics and MCs but not personnel. In this case I won't need to rely on handwaveum to explain what is going on. This is an interstellar empire so populations and crews are going to be shipped about. Not by canon but if I was going by canon I would have to restrict the ShipYard Component to only planets with certain populations. That won't happen! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

My ideas for a facility are "University" which produces trained personnel for crews. I was also thinking of "Military Academy" which would have half the production of the University, cost twice as much, but provide the training ability in conjunction to the resource production. I am thinking of taking out all the production ability though, with the conversion to MC land is no longer in shortage. If I can ever get this planet generation sorted that will change the land surplus some. But I still need to get the right ratios of available space to planet size sorted out.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Here is a capture of the change over to the MC system. Ok I know it isn't greatest but at least you can read the letters. I think they are a wee bit to large.
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/488383-MC_Test.jpg

[President_Elect_Shang]

I didn't have plans to post what is on the next patch until I had it ready to go. However, considering the recent discussion over Retro-Construction I decided to post this:

2. Added -- Components may now be sorted by clicking “Filter Comps” in the “Create Design” Window. Options for sorting are “All Components”, “HT 1”, “HT 2”, so forth up to “HT 16”, and “Required” as in components that are required on most but not all designs.

That will make the design portion of normal and retro-construction much easier.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I will need suggestions as to how many people would work in the following facilities:
Space Yard
Space Port
Resupply Depot
Industrial Complex
Organics Farm (I spelled Orgasmic first http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif; glad I caught that one)
Research Center
Forward Supply Base
University

[Ironmanbc]

Organics Farm (I spelled Orgasmic first ; glad I caught that one

ya should have left it in http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

other then that why does se4 have up to lvl HT18 in it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

Ironmanbc said:other then that why does se4 have up to lvl HT18 in it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif



I'm afraid you lost me here. SE4 has level HT18 what? The SFTC goes to level HT16 for hull sizes, industrial output, and tech area satisfaction for some components. The SFTC-Lite only goes to HT16 and that is for hull sizes and industrial output. Is that what you meant?

[Kana]

Well if you change Rads to Crew, then you will have to consider what creates crew on planets. So far I assume you mean facilities. But as it stands now planets can produce the three different resources, so you would have to change or remove the reference to Rads from all of the planet/system creation crap. Plus can the planetary 'resource percentage' boost the output of 'crew'? I mean it all sounds good in theory and on paper, but will it actually work in the end...I still think that Aaron needs to gives a bit more control on changing and implementing resources. If a modder wants one, or 10 it should be an option, and being able to change the name to whatever is appropriate would be nice as well...without having to go in and change Icons and pics and such...

[Phoenix-D]

How exactly do you propose to change the resource without changing the picture? It'd be a little odd to have a radiation symbol hanging around if radioactive have been replaced by something else.

[Suicide Junkie]

Changing the symbol is easy.

The planetary value would involve how well the local people take to space work. Think combinations of local gravity, culture, tech utilization, etc. Universities could improve the value via education. Extraction/Recruitment centers would probably reduce the value, since they're skimming off officers.

Or if you want the resource to be more general "work", then the value would be the economic efficiency of the colony. Work storage facilities would be vacation centers and amusement parks (When not needed, people "take vacations" (filling storage), then later they "work overtime")

[President_Elect_Shang]

Ya, what he said. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I know it won't model a resource "Personnel" efficiently. And while I agree with you Kana, that it would be nice to have that level of control over a new resource we don't. So I will have to use what I... have(?). Now as SJ said I am going to change the icon from rad. I discussed this in an earlier post. I also posted a pic of the change from Minerals to "MC". Changing the pic is really no challenge at all. Now if David can get me a nice pic to use. I don't plan on this resource being "crew" it will be more abstract like crew/workers. I have no plans to implement a complex system of entertainment centers, el etc. I prefer the simple and straightforward. Universities will produce the crew/workers. Storage is arbitrary as I can't set it to zero. Likewise there is no way to control the reduction in workers (Rads) when finite resources is on. If it is really that important to have an explanation as to why the resource is decreasing than say it is apathy. Over the years people grow more apathetic to work and want the machines to do it all while they sit in front of the Smell-O-Vision. It's just a game and there are limits. Some handwavium will be introduced into the system and most players won't care about the whys after a turn or two; if they ever did in the first place. As for the resource being affected by Rad/Personnel percentage so what? You can't say every city in your state produces the same number of graduates; between state-to-state maybe; how about country-to-country? No than how about from planet-to-planet.

[Ironmanbc]

I'm afraid you lost me here. SE4 has level HT18 what? The SFTC goes to level HT16 for hull sizes, industrial output, and tech area satisfaction for some components. The SFTC-Lite only goes to HT16 and that is for hull sizes and industrial output. Is that what you meant?

[/quote]

[Ironmanbc]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif ok then how do I do a quote http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

ok go easy on me i'm still learning how to do this

umm the file is the one I got off of the Post#http://seiv.pbw.cc/graphic/index.jsp (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showthreaded.php?Number=http://seiv.pbw.cc/graphic/index.jsp) and on high tech it go's to HL18 thats where I saw it

[President_Elect_Shang]

Ironmanbc said:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif ok then how do I do a quote


http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Just hit the quote button, then click at the end of the word "[ /quote ]" and press return to make a new line.

[Ironmanbc]

President_Elect_Shang said:

Ironmanbc said:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif ok then how do I do a quote


http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Just hit the quote button, then click at the end of the word "[ /quote ]" and press return to make a new line.



ok got it thanks

[President_Elect_Shang]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gifOMG! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif
That attachment is from the SE4 version of this mod! Holy Crap Batman! Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha... let me get my breath...
Ok, sorry man but development of the SE4 version was dropped long ago. I didn't even know there were any copies out there. This is the SE5 version of the Mod and if you haven't bought SE5 to try it out, you're missing out! SE4 just didn't allow me flexibility to make the mod the way it should. With SE5 I finally have all the tools I need. At least now I understand why you asked about HT17 and HT18. They were only progressions of components already developed. I think ECM was one at HT18 and EC-CM at HT17. I decided to cut the TC off at HT16 where the last of the new items are developed. That meant shifting the LN, JG, BS9, BS10, FT14, and FT15 hulls down to go into the new cutoff. The following changes were made, and I am assuming that you know what the abbreviations stand for, if not let me know.

Moved up from IND2 to HT1: SS
Moved down from HT16 to HT15: LN, BS9, and FT14
Moved down from HT18 to HT16: JG, BS10, and FT15
Some components were also moved to fit house rules

Sorry about that my friend please ask any questions you may have; I will understand where you are coming from but I strongly encourage you to download and try the SFTC for the hard-core experience (which I suspect you want) or the SFTC-Lite for a more mellow SE Series feel.

[Ironmanbc]

I do have SE5 and ya I still am learning about what you based the mod on (it looks like a cool board game)

I was playing the se4 mod to see what it was like. /threads/images/Graemlins/icon09.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

I hope you enjoyed it, don't be shy about leaving comments and suggestions. Point out the bad or good, what you like or don't like. All comments are welcome here my friend. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[Randallw]

Starfire is also a series of books (written by the guy who helped design it, David Webber). I've never seen the game.

I have 2 books, In Deaths ground and The Shiva option, which detail the bug war. There are 2 others I know of, Crusade, which is a sort of prequel I think, and something about a human civil war I don't have much interest in since I despise Humans unwilling to obey the homeworld. There is another book coming out recently which we have agreed, or mostly PES says, isn't good.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Crusade was the best of them all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif We must FREE Holy Mother Terra!

[Randallw]

Really, hmm, maybe I'll pick it up. It's at my local bookshop but I keep skipping it.

[Ironmanbc]

I went looking for starfire (the boardgame) on the net and found it, I also found this (I'm sure it's from the boardgame)

[President_Elect_Shang]

Yes that is from the game, but it looks like a house rule variation. Unless you are lucky enough to find a copy on eBay or an on-line game shop you won't find the Third Edition anymore. The license owner stopped supporting it so his Galactic (or is it Ultimate) StarFire is the only version in print. I don't support Galactic StarFire. I bought the rules but am not convinced it is worth the effort. To me Galactic SF looks like a 4X style game (in fact SE3 was my first impression) that had been turned into a paper and board game. WTF sense does that make? Why am I going to play a computer game as a paper game. I can't officially say the SFTC is based on 3rd Edition StarFire. What I can say is that it draws inspiration from 3rd and not Galactic. I would only consider a mod based on Galactic SF if I was aiding another modder, not the sole author. And I would never agree to sharing the SFTC name with a mod like that.

[David E. Gervais]

grrr, mumble, grrr my ears are burning,.. somebody is talking about me grrr, mumble,grrr..

..http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f237/DavidGervais/ManIcon1.jpg

..http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f237/DavidGervais/ManIcon2.jpg

Muahahaha, Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

Once again thank you David! There are the Personnel icons for the conversion. So that is:
Minerals ==&gt; MC
Radioactives ==&gt; Personnel
kT ==&gt; HS

Now how about my earlier question? How many workers/employees does it take to operate the below (earlier post) list of facilities?

[Ironmanbc]

President_Elect_Shang said:

Now how about my earlier question? How many workers/employees does it take to operate the below (earlier post) list of facilities?



Well ya need a boss and office staff http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
then you need the middle man http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif
about 100 workers per 1000 cost of the facility I guess http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

(I'm getting better at this) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

Ironmanbc said:
Well ya need a boss and office staff http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
then you need the middle man http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif


Crap that's about 100 per facility right there! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

Ironmanbc said:
...about 100 workers per 1000 cost of the facility I guess http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


I see two problems with that. First that wouldn't hold true when comparing a University to a Research Center to an Industrial Complex. I really need more solid numbers. Second even though they are still called "Minerals" in both the SFTC &amp; Lite it is really MC. I did the conversion first to test it. So that formula (100 per 1000) won't work as cost is based on construction time. Keep it coming as I think you are on the right track. I will give it more thought and a little research later tonight or this weekend.


Ironmanbc said:
(I'm getting better at this) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif



Sure but can you do the splits yet? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Randallw]

President_Elect_Shang said:

Sure but can you do the splits yet? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif



I can, but then I'm a mutant (I'm double jointed).

[Spectarofdeath]

How exactly do you install it? Do I need to put all the files into the correct folders?

[President_Elect_Shang]

Download it into the "GameTypes" folder and extract it, next time you start SE5 you will see it as an option.

[Spectarofdeath]

Very nice. Awesome work. Now all we need is some different ship sets and a good working AI. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Edit: But I did notice one thing, even though datalink says only 1 per vehicle effective, you can put more on, wouldn't this negate the fact of it being able to be damaged since one could just load as many onto the ship as possible?

[President_Elect_Shang]

Man awesome, your great. I see just what you are talking about. Adding more to the ship won't make it work any better, it just means you are giving up Armor slots to something that will only provide 1 point in damage resistance. The key word is effective. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Do me a favor please; take a look at your strategies when you create a ship. What is the default strategy listed?

[Spectarofdeath]

I think you mis understand what I'm saying. Ok, the DL provides the ship the exp of the most exp ship in the fleet. Now say during the battle this component is destroyed. However, since the player put 2 or 3 on his ship, it would just switch to a different dl so the ship would still provide the exp bonus would it not? In order to neutralize the dl one would have to make sure all the dl destroyed. I'm not sure if this is how you meant to make it or not, (if it is just let me know) but as I recall in the novels ships only had one dl and the loss of it made the ships and the fleet alot less effective.

Edit: Default Strat is optimal firing range.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Yes you are right on the money, I could restrict them to one per ship with some recoding, or whatever you want to call the modding part. I did understand and I am still tracking with you. Now what I did instead was to restrict it to the armor slots of a ship. I decided to do it this way because a single hit from a weapon doing 10 points of damage would knock out 10 DataLinks (code for them is Z). So you would need to put at least 11 Z in a ship minimum just to survive the first hit and keep the benifit it provides. So that is at least 10 slots (1 slot for a single Z) out of those 11 that you could have spent on armor. And a single slot of armor could have absorbed all that damage. Also when SE5 applies damage it is more likely to apply it to the largest tonnage space taken component. Placing those 11 Z equals 0 tonnage space taken. With that the Z should be one of the last items hit. And given that info you will see multiple occurrences still won't help. Add as many as you want they aren't likely to be hit till the real armor is gone and when they are hit one shot is generally enough to destroy all of them. This changes when you develop the next version of Z.

How about that strategy; what does it say?

[President_Elect_Shang]

instead of editing the last post I wanted to place a new one and make sure you notice it. You will need to start a new game after downloading and placing the file attached here (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=UBB23&amp;Number=488678&amp;page=0 &amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1) in the SFTC root directory. Answer yes when asked if you want to over right. The Stock strategies are overriding the SFTC strategies and this should fix the problem.

in regards to the next generation of Z, the ones that don't go into Armor slots you still have a valid point. In this case what you are doing is giving up valuable internal slots to multiple copies of a component. Those same slots could be used for weapons and so forth. I value your opinion and would like you to tell me what you would like to see done. #1 leave the component the way it is now? #2 Restrict the component to only one per ship? This will be your personal call and I will implement what you think is best.

[Spectarofdeath]

Ok, I'll get this installed right away. As far as the new Z,I bow to your infinite wisdom. It's your mod, you should do what you think is right. But since you did ask for my opinion, I would say restrict it to one per ship.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Sure I could have done it the way I wanted to. But how else could I have of shown my appreciation for your help? Besides it's not about me, it never was. If it was both versions of the SFTC would be sitting on my hard drive now and forever. I feel modders have a responsibility to the community. We should build a mod based on our vision. Then shape the mod based on player input. If players ask for too much the modder should say "no; but I will put your idea away for another mod". Another thing I very strongly feel about us modders is the responsibility to aid and even build mods for others. It has taken me a lot of hard work and time to learn how to do this. Some members of the community may not be able to learn because of real life demands or whatever. If members here want a mod and they can describe it AND a modder has free time they should help. Even if its something as simple as "Hay PES I don't like the way the DUC fires can you change it for me?" Something like that is too simple and this community needs to know they can ask! I don't expect everyone to love the SFTC or the SFTC-Lite. It is my dream not yours; however, I don't want anyone to think they can't ask me for help. I may not know all there is, I admit there's a lot left to learn; but I do care!

Ok I'm off my soap box, thanks for listening.

Oh and the change to one per vehicle will be in the next patch. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

[Spectarofdeath]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gifI did notice that one of the titles for leader of the goverment is president elect. Very subtle. I hear ya on learning how to do this stuff. I can think of basic ideas for things I would like implemented (and most of it I could probably do) but once those math formulas hit me, I might as well go curl into a ball and cry myself to sleep. The thing I really want to do is add more ships, some of the members here (and in other communities) do stuff that is just insane. And this is mod is one of them. Alot of hard work and alot of talent. Now we just need to get you someone to make some shipsets (Come on AT, You know you want to!! lol jk) And as far as Star fire goes, board games were a little before my time which is why I don't know much about the games. But I do know the novels and they've all been great (except the latest, I haven't read it yet). We need to clone DW and have a clone of him for each series, SF, HH, and Dahak.

[President_Elect_Shang]

AT will come around in time. He needs cash for a good program and time to learn. About this same time next year I should have a ship set out and the SFTC will be my target theme for that set. You know if you want any ships added all you need to do is PM me with the which mod you are using or if you are using Stock and an outline of what you would like to see. I will make it for you, you can test, then we can fine tune. Given enough time you may have your own mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

[Spectarofdeath]

I'm already using the ST shipset for your mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Ironmanbc]

I'm using the BSG shipset

[President_Elect_Shang]

Spectarofdeath said:
I'm already using the ST shipset for your mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif



He-he-he; so am I...

Say halow to my little frienn
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/484480-Galaxy.jpg

[President_Elect_Shang]

Ironmanbc said:
I'm using the BSG shipset



I took a look at the BSG shipset and just couldn't get into it. I need to take another look as I understand it has been updated. Ironmanbc did you patch the strategies so your ships don't run in combat? If not the file is attached here. You will have to start a new game to get them to take effect. Just download and add this to the SFTC folder. If you do it right you will see three folders in the SFTC main folder; "Data", "Empires", and "Pictures". This will be included in the next patch.

[Ironmanbc]

I'm waiting for the next patch http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

You are in for a big surprise. It's best that you do wait anyway. The patch will be a game breaker even if you apply this quick fix. There are a lot of changes in store. I need two favors though. Any and all help would be welcome.

1. I need type-o's checked for. I understand there a number in the governments selection screen.

2. I haven't had a chance to work on any numbers for the below list of facilities; number of workers they need that is. Can anyone spare a little research time to look this up. If not I will get to it as soon as I can. I need those numbers before the patch will be ready. Since there are other changes I am trying to hammer out this has gotten pushed down on my to do list. Add to that I am auditing classes since it will be the last chance I get before moving... and my new duties as an SE5 beta tester... I need a Stretch-Out-Time machine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Ironmanbc]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif A big surprise http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

The A.I. is working http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

Really? I get an error on the government types. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif Can you upload your save game; did you get the same error?

[Ironmanbc]

No I was trying to be funny (the A.I. needs more work done on it)

[President_Elect_Shang]

Ironmanbc said:
No I was trying to be funny (the A.I. needs more work done on it)



Everyone thinks there a freaken comedian these days! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

Just a little something to let you know what's up... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/489137-Test.png

[President_Elect_Shang]

I'm just about done with the next patches for this thing. Is there any input from anyone?

[Suicide Junkie]

The blue is hard to see: "MC"?
Lining it with cyan would help make it much more visible

[President_Elect_Shang]

Cool I can do that. Can you give me the RBG values please? I have problems in the green and blue shades. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Edit: Do you mean like the same values Minerals (95, 152, 228) use now?

[Randallw]

I have almost finished Crusade. Good book. I had a vague idea who the Thebans were but thought they were huamns. Pity that, to the best of my knowledge, there are no books about the Rigellians.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Yes that is a crying shame. I would have enjoyed reading about the struggle with the Rozhark and their final uprising leading to the Hammers of Tarwix.

Instead of making two posts let me change subjects here. The next patch to the SFTC and Lite are ready to go. I still have no reports of bugs which is a shame. It means no one is playing! Crap I guess my tastes are really that bad compared to main stream! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif Anyway the patches are ready to go and I am just sitting on them for... well no real reason at all. I will tinker with the system generation and SJ said something about the shade of blue I used for the MC. I thought he was going to give me an RBG to use but nothing as of yet. I will get this out when the next patch to SE5 is released unless anyone wants one or both sooner.

[Kana]

Sorry I have a big event I'm going to mid Feburary, and I have things other than say my job that take up my evening and weekend time...so I havent had much time to dedicate to it. After Feburary I should have more time.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Don't worry about it; that was my dry humor I wasn't really serious. Where is Paladin when I need him? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Randallw]

I've had this link for months but strangely I never thought to show it till now.

http://www.starfiredesign.com/starfire/encyclopedia/index.html

[President_Elect_Shang]

I have all the source material that stuff came from. Stars at War is a great book detailing the rise of Anderson. Which I think by now you know him as President Anderson, or was he already out of office in Crusade? I can't recall now. Anyway it details the rise of Anderson and the the war with the Khanate. The whisker twitchers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Shame SDS stopped printing this material or I would strongly advise you pick it up. I think if you could get your hands on the source material and I could give you a copy of a players aid progrm you would enjoy the game a lot. Don't worry the program is freeware. Should that be one word or two: feeware or free ware?

[President_Elect_Shang]

The patch is up. I expect some issues surrounding the personnel points. During testing everything was working good but I am only one person so issues will slip past. Here is the history:

Version 0.12-B 28 January 2007
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Changed -- Opening picture for atmosphere and planet types to more clearly indicate which are Not Used.
2. Added -- Components may now be sorted by clicking “Filter Comps” in the “Create Design” Window. Options for sorting are “All Components”, “HT 1”, “HT 2”, so forth up to “HT 16”, and “Required” as in components that are required on most but not all designs.
3. Fixed -- X-Ray Laser Detonation Chamber was not registering when added to a vehicle.
4. Replaced -- All bmp’s with Mineral and Radioactive icons to reflect new “MC” and Personnel icons.
5. Fixed -- New Empires were not using the strategies included with the SFTC.
6. Changed -- Intelligence Font color changed to black (0, 0, 0) to reduce attention on these numbers.
7. Changed -- DataLink and Improved DataLink so only 1 may be mounted per vehicle.
8. Added -- Personnel points for vehicles.
9. Changed -- Organics costs for vehicles to reflect crew consumption rate of Personnel divided by 2 rounded up.
10. Corrected -- A few entries in the VehicleSizes.txt reflected incorrect information.
11. Changed -- References to kT have been changed to “HS” or “tn” or left as “kT’ depending on line usage in MainStrings.txt.
12. Changed -- Select references to “Minerals” and “Radioactives” to “MC” and “Personnel”.
13. Added -- University facility type.
14. Changed -- facilities to reflect a work force.
15. Updated -- HomeworldStartingFacilities.txt.
16. Changed -- Organics Farm Facility to Protein Processing Plant.
17. Changed -- Some flavor text in MainsStrings.txt.
18. Corrected -- Assorted type-o’s in GovernmentTpes.txt.
19. Added -- Ability to “build” in personnel points to facilities and components.
20. Changed -- Organics build rate reflected SE5 Stock style; now reflects SFTC style.

[Kasdar]

Is this mod still available for download? I would like to take a look at it.

[Atrocities]

I am sure it is somewhere. Try spaceempires.net or sent PEShang an email.

[Spectarofdeath]

It really is a shame too, all the game needs is a workable AI. Other then the core Scifi franchises, (Star trek, b5, star wars, battlestar) this is my 2nd favorite universe (1st being Honorverse) and it makes a great mod. Would also love to see some custom shipsets for it as well, but I would just settle for being able to play against something other then myself.

[Kana]

As stated by AT, best would be to contact PES. I'd start with a PM, and then an email.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Until a certain number of fixes can be made to the game engine this is irreparably broken. Sorry can't help out much beyond that.

[Kasdar]

if you have a download for it I would still love to take a look at it. whether finished or not.

[Kana]

President_Elect_Shang said:
Until a certain number of fixes can be made to the game engine this is irreparably broken. Sorry can't help out much beyond that.



We still talking about the generational level change thing. Basically the SEIV similar progression of components and levels?