My thoughts on the concept of the SE5 Design

[TexasHawk]

Hey guys,

*Very* occasional poster, but very long-time player (since SE2). I have watched the series grow and evolve and with the release of SE5, most people ***** and moan about the AI, the bugs, etc... but I think they're missing the point.

Yes, the bugs are annoying and inexcusable but I am confident they will be fixed (reminding some of these new players that SE4 went all the way up to 1.94!) so I feel confident that SE5 will do the same.

The point I want to make is that I do not believe Aaron set out to create a game with uber-AI. Reading the type of fixes, and the type and scope of modding that can be done within the code, I think Aaron in this version set out to create more of a game *system* less than a pure, singular *game*.

Take Civ 4. Yes, it stands on its own as a fantastic computer game and its modding capabilities are probably the greatest of any major-budget game ever released. And there have been some commercial-quality TC's released, but the point is that Civ 4 was created by hundreds of people who had the time to bulletproof the AI. Aaron is not hundreds of people. So I think he made a choice - at some point during the process he sat down and designed SE5 to be whatever the players wanted it to be; he just provided the framework and the documentation.

Of course he would need to provide some semblence of a SP game for those who don't use/can't be bothered with mods, but this game was made all along for people like us - people he knew would one day create the greatest 4X game from his shell in gaming history. And this is the point I think people ultimately miss.

Now, who will create that game.....?

[Shadowstar]

I think you're right. I've had more fun modding SE5 than any other "big name" mainstream games that are designed to be "completely moddable". There are few games as thoroughly moddable as SE5.

That just means that what we have here is possibly the greatest game ever, we just have to finish it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

You know Shadowstar that is what I just said over here. (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB23&Number=484735&page=0 &view=collapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1) I'll say it again! In the end when SE5 is smoothed out and more mods like ST, B5, BSG, and SW are out with matching shipsets those who are running away screaming "I won't play this game it sucks" will be back burning up the threads talking about how they took down a Death Star with a X-Wing fighter group! On that day I will sit back at this desk and say "I told you so". It won't be as much fun saying it to a computer but the principal is the same. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Santiago]

Playing Devil's Advocate.

"Yes, the bugs are annoying and inexcusable but I am confident they will be fixed (reminding some of these new players that SE4 went all the way up to 1.94!) so I feel confident that SE5 will do the same."

I am sure that will happen judging by Aaron's past history

"The point I want to make is that I do not believe Aaron set out to create a game with uber-AI. Reading the type of fixes, and the type and scope of modding that can be done within the code, I think Aaron in this version set out to create more of a game *system* less than a pure, singular *game*."

"Of course he would need to provide some semblence of a SP game for those who don't use/can't be bothered with mods, but this game was made all along for people like us - people he knew would one day create the greatest 4X game from his shell in gaming history. And this is the point I think people ultimately miss."

If that's true that he set out to not to create an Uber AI or even a decent AI, and that this is more of a sandbox type game, then it should be advertised as so. It doesn't say on my box that you need to play multiplayer or use mods to play. Nor does it say that the stock AI's are pushover's. For players new to SE, this comes as quite the surprise, just read the SF forums.

You end up alienating some new customers and also get mediocre reviews, which you may think is neither here nor there, but they matter to an extent in that retail outlets which purchased the game (ie Best Buy, GameStop, EB etc) won't buy more or pull them from the shelves and will have second thoughts about dealing with SF again.

There was a post or rumour awhile back that Aaron was doing this full time. For this to work effectively long term, you need sales. So keep that day job in sight.

"for those who don't use/can't be bothered with mods, but this game was made all along for people like us -"

While this may be true, it comes off sounding elitist. What it comes down to is that:

SEV is great for modders, but for players it sux.

As for modding, I hope I'm wrong but I forsee less modders for SEV than there were for SEIV. Why? Slightly more complicated- some people who previously modded but are not programmers see "Scripts" and walk away. Even worse for shipsets- now you need to be a 3d modeler. It would have been better to leave the game 2d with combat being 3d. I'd bet the game perfomance would have been a lot better and less graphics headaches overall.

And I'm sure a lot of you will say modding and shipsets are no big deal, but to a lot of us it is a big deal, whether its lack of skills or lack of time. I didn't want to pay $40 to be a Beta tester. I just wanted to play the game advertised on the box and I can't.

I didn't miss your point I just don't agree with it.

[Ironmanbc]

Well I can live with the bugs for now because I know there will be a patch that will fix it sooner or later.

Unlike in the 80's and early 90's when you got a game off the shelf and it had bugs, there was little you could do about it now when I buy a game the first thing I do is go to the website and see if there is a patch for it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Fyron]

Santiago said:
There was a post or rumour awhile back that Aaron was doing this full time.


It's not a rumor; he's been game programming full time since a bit after SE4 gold was released.

[Santiago]

Well I wish him the best of luck in this endeavor. It can't be that easy.

Anyway I like the game, have a few bones to pick here and there, trying to learn more about modding, never enough time to play for hours on end. I bought my copy thru SF but saw one in a gamestop on a road trip, so now have 2 (the one from SF showed up eventually and is not opened).

Just wish the game was at the A+ stage. Modders work faster ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Great for modders, sucks for players is totally unfair.

Sucks for players who refuse to download anything but "official" patches, maybe.

Anyone who can download balance mod gets an instant boost in funfactor. Hopefully that will be the gateway drug to the superhappyfunland of full-out Mods.

[Santiago]

That's kind of a narrow view. So anyone who doesn't want to play a mod is out of luck in your viewpoint? As I said in the "Whats wrong with SEV thread":

Mods should enhance the playability of the game, not become the game.

[Noble713]

Gotta agree with Suicide Junkie. Does anyone think Half-Life and countless other FPS games would be as popular as they are without mods? The basic multiplayer in HL is pretty crappy. It's mods like Counterstrike and Day of Defeat that have propelled it into the stratosphere.

Just look at the numbers from Gamespy:

250,147 gamers are online right now
Game Players
• Half Life 98,668
• Half Life 2 79,149
• Battlefield 2 19,146
• Battlefield 2142 14,338
• Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory 13,356
• Call of Duty 2 7,784




Eight years after its release and HL still dominates the genre. I can guarantee you those people aren't playing stock.


Mods should enhance the playability of the game, not become the game.



Why does the origin of the content matter, as long as it is fun?

[Suicide Junkie]

All you have to do is download (one click!) and unzip (Drag and Drop).
After that, the mods have equal or greater support and visibility than stock.

If somebody complains, and we point them to the fix for that problem but they refuse to use it, well frankly that is their own damn fault.

On the other hand, if you are implying that the mods should be included in the public patches Aaron gives out ... I think that is a great idea.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Suicide Junkie said:
...if you are implying that the mods should be included in the public patches Aaron gives out ... I think that is a great idea.



Oh man; how long till modders start complaining the patches are coming out to fast for them. They can't keep up with deadlines. Who is going to hand hold them through the proper updates when MainStrings.txt picks up a new line or two. Who is going to check that they patched their mod properly if they aren't beta testers with the latest patch already? Who Aaron; no way will that work. It should be the players responsibility to update their copy. It's not like we modders place ourselves on the top of an ivory pillar and become impossible to contact. There is no reason why a player can't contact the author of a mod for update support.

[Fyron]

New lines in mainstrings.txt are trivial to add to all mods in a scripted process, so that bit isn't a concern for compatibility issues. New lines in components.txt et all have traditionally been optional (refer to vehicle list override, all sorts of additions to mounts (shield modification)), so are also not a concern.

[Suicide Junkie]

Keeping up may or may not be an issue.

But consider if the mod folders were installed, along with a mod_definition that gave a nice description and provided a download link?

[President_Elect_Shang]

Fyron they may be trivial to you but I guarantee at least one modder will complain that they can't make the deadline and need another day which stretches into more days. Do we delay the patch? Or are you saying that Aaron should set up some kind of script to add the missing critical lines?

SJ can you flesh out your idea more? What do you mean by the mod folders? Would they be dummy folders with the description and link or would they be folders with the above and the latest *turned in* copy of the mod? Still that is a lot of extra work for Aaron to do and I can't see it being done. He would need to set up a repository of sorts were we could upload our latest version. Then when it came time for the next patch it would all get wrapped into one nice package. Now that brings a new set of security issues to the table which again Aaron would have to set up. The idea you propose is very appealing. The only way to get it to work is to make Aaron's portion of it virtually hands-off. Put that big analytical brain of yours to work and solve this one. Must be as fool proof as possible, simple so modders can't screw the system up, and hands free for Aaron. Put the responsibility on the modder.

[Fyron]

Yes, I am saying Aaron would set up a script to add the missing lines automatically... It's a 5-10 minute job once a patch.

I don't think SJ was proposing that every mod under the sun be included in the patches, but just a few particular mods.

[Suicide Junkie]

The "dummy" or prototype mod folders would be like that, yeah.

Including the whole mod would make the patch sizes way too big. But advertising their existence wouldn't hurt at all.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Using a dummy system would be great. It would avoid all the issues of keeping updates running. Excluding certain mods so only particular ones are included shows favoritism and elitism and would automatically negate the validity of such a noble endeavor. For example which of you two play my SFTC or Lite? Have you even tried it yet? Does that mean I would be included or excluded? Anyone who applies to have a dummy folder for their mod should be allowed to participate. Otherwise who amongst us is so qualified as to determine who can be included and who can't? Using a dummy system; as you point out SJ, will keep the download times down... short(?). Now this is only for mods, images and the like shouldn't be included. Well maybe UI improvements too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Anyway we agree that it should be a dummy system for mods. Now SJ how can a system like that be implemented so it takes Aaron virtually zero effort? how is this for tossing ideas out. Sticky post here, SpaceEmpires, and whatever the other "official" site is asks for modders to place a dummy folder with a good link in it. Then just before the next patch a few of us round them up and paste them to the Beta site. Finally Aaron copies them into the update, zips it up, and poof off it goes? What kind of plan is that, where are the holes, how can it be made better? Final thought. Is there a way that the link can be built into the Mod_Definition.txt? This may be shooting to high so blame it on my lack of technical knowledge. What I have in mind is the player downloads the update with the dummy folders and a "dummy Mod_Definition.txt". When they start SE5 they see the selection screen and if they click on the duumy mod it gives a short description (this part would need to be limited to a certain number of characters) and also a link to the download site. How feasible is that?

[Fyron]

It wasn't about favoritism or elitism... geeze. I was referring more to the "basic" mods like balance mod. That mod could be included in whole in a patch, as it isn't very big (needs no images, for example).

[Suicide Junkie]

Near zero effort:
- The patch adds a folder and places a mod definition text file in it.
- Repeat for each submitted mod.

And for best effect, submit a modified title pic along with your description which makes it clear that the mod needs to be installed still. Such as a standardized red border with "download from XYZ.com" across the bottom.

[President_Elect_Shang]

How would we pull all the dummy files together? Wouldn't we need a site for the modders to drop their work, or two, or three? Then it gets picked up by you or me or another volunteer and moved to where; the Beta site? SJ I think you have already figured it all out but you need to spell it out for the rest of us. How about an example dummy folder with the altered pic you are talking about, can you do an example and place it here please?

Fyron what are the "basic" mods and who decides that a mod is basic? What if a new mod comes along is that basic? Or are you referring only to Kwok Stock? Which pretty much null and voids SJ's entire idea. Define what you mean and who will sit on the panel or council or whatever to decide a mod is basic? My cat Tom is volunteering for the duty but I never will be part of a system that says "I'm sorry your work just isn't good enough to be 'basic'. Maybe next time ol' chap!"

[Captain Kwok]

I say when SE:V Deluxe is release, include a bunch of user created gametypes on the disc. I wouldn't bother with the pseudo gametype entries that point to the mod download sites - leave it up to the mod author to advertise their stuff.

[Suicide Junkie]

I imagine an "email Aaron with this stuff attached when you want you mod to be added to the list" system

[President_Elect_Shang]

Suicide Junkie said:
I imagine an "email Aaron with this stuff attached when you want you mod to be added to the list" system



Oh, that is simple. I wonder if Aaron would actually add it or forget to. I was looking for a more "error free" system? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Fyron]

I should note that the suggestion to directly include a few basic mods was not in any way related to the idea of mod stubs, and can happily coeexist with it.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Edited: Misunderstanding about what should be included. The stubs or full mods or both. Full mods should not to keep download times of the patches short. Only stubs.