Neo Standard for SE V?

[Atrocities]

After working on two separate ship sets I have begun to wonder how to add new ships for use with SE V. Right now the current ship list is rather limited:

Frigate
Destroyer
Light Cruiser
Cruiser
Battleship
Dreadnought

It has a listing for Baseship but uses the Starbase image.

Compare SE V's basic ship package with that of SE IV and you can see that we are missing many ships and at least one base.

I was wondering if any one has put in thought into how to expand the existing ship sets for stock SE V? I know that the order of how images appear in the Shipset and Vehicle Main Texture files has to be correctly ordered or ships won't match up.

I would like to add more ships to the two sets I have just released, but simply don't know how to go about getting SE V to use them without errors.

So any help or guidance in this area would be greatly appreciated.

[Fyron]

I'm wondering if there is really a need. We can make hull sizes increase in kt in SE5, so there is perhaps not so much need for more intermediate hulls as there was in SE4 (such as heavy destroyer).

[Atrocities]

I guess your right and all, but I think people will want a larger variety of ships to choose from. Given the shier number of ships for say Star Trek, I am certain more ships will be wanted in time.

[dogscoff]

People are definitely going to want worldships.

I mean everyone loves a Death Star, right?

[Suicide Junkie]

Well, at its most basic, you would want NS Se5 >= SE4 stock.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I strongly agree with with SJ and with Fyron but less so. No I'm not cracking a joke this time Fyron. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I agree that the number of ships should be at or above Stock SE4 but more than that is not really needed as Fyron pointed out. Now my personally take on what would be nice. For the SFTC and Lite I use over 60 hull sizes (inclusive). I will be working on condensing the total number using an SE5 approach for the Lite. So until I finish I can't say for sure how many images would be "optimal" for it. However, I can't condense the Full version and for it I would like to see:

8 Warships, 4 Carriers, 8 Freighters, 5 Bases, 4 Fighters, and 4 Small Craft.

Small craft are like ST shuttles and such so they should look markedly different from Fighters. I could settle with 7 Freighters instead of 8. And before you freak out at the numbers remember this is only my wish list. I'm not expecting all of the above. Just more than we have now.

[Shadowstar]

I wonder about the sizes involved. Models are bigger than pictures, and putting as many ships into an SE5 set as a SE4 set will undoubtedly result in much larger shipset files. For most people, this wouldn't be a concern, but I run PBEM games, and require players using non-stock shipsets to send them to me (either attached or as a link). My email provider can't accept files larger than 5mb in an email, and once I have all the sets, I put them together and send them to the players before the game starts so that everyone can see the ships. The bigger the sets are, the more demanding this file becomes. I don't want to stick my 56k players with hours of downloading just to play in my game.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see more variety, I'd just like everyone to keep an eye on the file sizes, and I don't think lowering texture resolution is the best option. I'd rather have a few less ships in a sharp-looking shipset than a few more ships in a fuzzy looking shipset.

[Atrocities]

You download them first and install them into your game. You don't send ship set files with PBW files. The information your sending for PBW is game data only, no images. The images have to be on your side in order for you to see them, or else the game will use generic images in their place.

And you might not know this, but many SEIV PBW game files eventually grow large then 5 megs. SE V will be even larger sooner.

[Phoenix-D]

Yeah, the shipsets are going to be the least of your worries. My KOTH game- which is a TWO player game, no AIs- hit 28 MB on a turn with a lot of combat..

[Fyron]

Why would you email the actual shipset files, when you can just send download links to where the sets are already hosted on the 'net?

[President_Elect_Shang]

Imperator Fyron said:
Why would you email the actual shipset files, when you can just send download links to where the sets are already hosted on the 'net?



Right guys (At & P-D) that is what I thought Shadowstar was saying. He sends them out at the start of the game not every turn. So Fyron took the words right out of my... fingers(?). Why are you killing yourself by sending the shipsets? In most cases you can get every shipset and every Mod from Fyron's site. Send the players a link to it and tell them the names of the sets they need. Or as Atrocities pointed out in SE5 if they don't have the time or inclination they will see a default shipset.

[Combat Wombat]

Of couse we need neo-standard, at least what we had for SE4. There is so much SE5 just left behind. Also I think we should try to go beyond the SE4 Neo-standard and go for a neo stnadard+ like was used in Invasion! Infantry, Gunships, etc....

[Atrocities]

The problem as I see it is how are we going to incorporate any more ships into a ship set? How do we do that? What files must be edited, what order are they needed in the ship set textures and ship set image files?

One is alphabetical so that isn't too much of a problem, but the other, the portrait main textures list, isn't.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I thought they had to be added to the end but for the life of me where I read that just slips my mind. We should ask Aaron. On that other matter we were discussing about the firing points... he said nothing would happen to the firing ship.

[Fyron]

A SE5 neostandard should probably be limited to 5 or 6 vehicles. Given the added difficulties and time present with SE5 set making, a ~30 model increase over stock will probably cause most authors to not bother with neostandard. With SE4, many authors just filled the 20 neostandard images with slightly resized models anyways, maybe with the wings slightly smaller. Hulls like "heavy destroyer" and "dreadnought heavy" rarely saw new, unique graphics. That functionality (model rescaling) can be done in a mod's vehiclesizes.txt file directly, so I don't think "heavy" and "light" models are really necessary. Neostandard++ was overkill.

If you could name the 5 "most needed" additional vehicle models (of all types), what would they be? (I won't put my list cause I don't want to color the ideas. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)

[Combat Wombat]

Imperator Fyron said:
A SE5 neostandard should probably be limited to 5 or 6 vehicles. Given the added difficulties and time present with SE5 set making, a ~30 model increase over stock will probably cause most authors to not bother with neostandard. With SE4, many authors just filled the 20 neostandard images with slightly resized models anyways, maybe with the wings slightly smaller. Hulls like "heavy destroyer" and "dreadnought heavy" rarely saw new, unique graphics. That functionality (model rescaling) can be done in a mod's vehiclesizes.txt file directly, so I don't think "heavy" and "light" models are really necessary. Neostandard++ was overkill.

If you could name the 5 "most needed" additional vehicle models (of all types), what would they be? (I won't put my list cause I don't want to color the ideas. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)



doesnt mean we should put the stanard out there for people to use if they want.

[Markavian]

For reference, my proposed list of SE5 models (from http://mkv25.net/USy/tylmai_se5/) is:

Frigate
Destroyer
Light Cruiser
Cruiser
Battleship
Dreadnought

Colony Ship

Light Carrier
Heavy Carrier

Small Freighter
Large Freighter

Space Station
Battle Station
Starbase

Drone
Fighter
Mine
Satellite
Troop
Weapon Platform

Which includes a few more then stock.

Regards,
- Markavian

[Suicide Junkie]

I would have to agree, in that new unit *types* are more important than additional sizes.

Infantry...
Mothership Plugins... (IE "adds ability to parent" / "fires from cargo")
Construction Bots...
And whatever we can think up using all those nifty abilities.

[Markavian]

Particularly, out of the above list, I have small and large alternatives for Carriers and Freighters/Transport ships. AFIK there is only one of each in SE5. I also have three levels of Space Station. I think possibly there should be an alternate bigger or small troop.

Mines, WP's, Satellites, etc. leave as they are, one model.

[Atrocities]

Well at bare minimum, we need to have the same basic ship hull sizes that Stock SE IV has.

[Fyron]

Imperator Fyron said:
If you could name the 5 "most needed" additional vehicle models (of all types), what would they be? (I won't put my list cause I don't want to color the ideas. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)



Anyone want to put forward a 5 hull list?

[President_Elect_Shang]

Warships in order smallest to largest:

Frigate
Destroyer
Cruiser
Battleship
Dreadnought

However I would like to see:

Escort
Frigate
Destroyer
Cruiser
Battleship
Dreadnought
Juggernaut

Which is 7 as standard. Carriers, Bases, and Freighters would be different. Troops, WP, Mines, Drones, and Satellites one each and three fighter sizes; two minimum.

So I don't get it why only 5? That is one less than Stock?

[Fyron]

Note the "additional" bit... stock images are not part of the neostandard additions, they are already needed by ship set authors. I was asking what 5 additional vehicle hulls (not just ships) would be the best set to form a neostandard addon to the stock set.

[Atrocities]

Really all I am interested in is what ships hull should be added so that I can start working on that. Also I wanted to know what I needed to do in order to add additional ships. What data files need modifying, and in what way, and the best way to add new images to the Main Textures and ShipSet images.

[Kana]

Escort/Corvette
Battle Cruiser
Different sized or shaped-
Carriers
Fighters
Freighters

While I would like a Heavy Destroyer, War Destroyer, or War Cruiser, that could be achived by scaling of similar models.

[Atrocities]

I am thinking along the lines of something simple:

Scout
Escort
Corvette
Frigate
Destroyer
Light Cruiser
Cruiser
Battle Cruiser
Battleship
Dreadnought
Juggernaut
Baseship

Outpost
Shipyard
Space Station
Base or battle Station
Starbase

Transport Small
Transport Medium
Transport Large

Troop Transport Light
Troop Transport Armored
Troop Transport Heavy Armored

Colony Ship
Colony Ship Large

Barge

Infantry
Heavy Infantry

Mechinized Armor Small
Mechinized Armor Medium
Mechinized Armor Large
Mechinized Armor Heavy

Fighter Small
Fighter Medium
Fighter Large
Fighter Heavy

Weapon Platform Basic
Weapon Platform Armored
Weapon Platform Heavy Armored

[Fyron]

That's exactly the kind of list I think might tend to scare ship set authors away from the neostandard.

[Captain Kwok]

Atrocities, some of those items like "Troop Transport Armored" are more reminiscent of a design type than a new hull.

[Atrocities]

See this is exactly the type of discussion needed to narrow the ship list. Do we need several classes of transport? And Fyron, why would it scare away ship set authors? I would think that they would look forward to having more designs than not. Sure it might be a bit more work, but most ship set authors would be up to that task. And there is nothing saying that they would have to make all of the ships.

[Suicide Junkie]

Fyron's point is that these things are much harder to do than in SE4. And the return on investment is quite small, since you can just rescale the models ingame to get the extra sizes.


IMO, the thing we need to focus on for the core neostandard is the new types of object. The things that are completely not represented yet, like infantry and a second shape for common things with only one model so far.

The ++ part of it should include most/all the things listed here, but not the core...

[Fyron]

Atrocities said:
And there is nothing saying that they would have to make all of the ships.

That should be what the neostandard++ is for, extra hulls that don't necessarily add new, distinctive model types. To really make the neostandard a useful basis for mods, we want any author that makes a neostandard ship set to make everything in the neostandard. Picking and choosing a few models to do seems to defeat the purpose, to me. A narrower, more focused list eases the burden of implementation and is more likely to get full implementation than something which requires 20+ extra models to be made.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Suicide Junkie said:
Fyron's point is that these things are much harder to do than in SE4. And the return on investment is quite small, since you can just rescale the models in game to get the extra sizes.


Resizing is a modding issue, our realm of expertise. New models are a Shipset creation issue which is Atrocities realm of expertise. I understand it is harder but he has generated more shipsets in both SE4 and SE5 then either of us. So if he says it is worth the effort than I as a modder must differ to him and say go ahead. Either way you make the models and I will use them.

While I agree that distinct models are needed expansion on the limited hulls we have now would be useful. Also I strongly feel the desire to generate a complete set of Neo++ will be based more on a desire to meet expectations of the players. Isn't that why we are here having this discussion. To bring the players new eye candy?

[Fyron]

A lot of SE4 ship set authors never bothered with neostandard images, due to the extra work involved.

[Shadowstar]

I think I will just have to require everyone to find a hosting site for their shipsets. I have a limit of 50MB of space on my website, and I have the feeling I'm going to use most of that just with the mod alone. Large shipsets shouldn't be a problem since I won't be sending them out with the pre-game patch, I'll just give everyone the links to where they can download them. This was something I couldn't do in SE4 because several players who made thier own sets had to email them to me. That's kind of an old and inefficient method and hosting is cheap and easy these days. I don't think anyone will have any trouble finding a site to put thier shipsets on, especially if they are good. Hey maybe I can even use my mod to pimp some of those sites. Could be good cross-publicity...

[President_Elect_Shang]

Imperator Fyron said:
A lot of SE4 ship set authors never bothered with neostandard images, due to the extra work involved.



Ah crap I never finished my thought. I wanted to say "So either they will go the whole distance or stick to doing the Stock set requirements." I had to wrap it up and get the kids.

[Fyron]

Wouldn't it be better if it was less of a gorge to cross for full implementation?

[President_Elect_Shang]

Can't argue with that one. But is that really a reason to short stick ourselves and the players?

[Fyron]

Short stock how? An author that wants to go all out could do both the neostandard and the neostandard++. We just want to provide a tight set of distinctly new hulls that would be the most useful to general modding. All the extra stuff (like war cruiser) could go into the neostandard++. We aren't suggesting that noone should make such images, just that we should provide a core set of the most important ones.

[Ed Kolis]

I would recommend the addition of at least the following to the stock requirements:

Scout - we need something that suggests a small ship sacrificing firepower for speed and/or range
Baseship - OK, it's already referred to in the data files, but no stock shipsets actually have any.
Worldship - for the doom stars, deeath stars, terror stars, battlemoons of our evil overlords http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif
Resource Ship - for robo-miners and such (don't really need a resource base as the base hulls are general purpose - only the Battle Station has a military connotation)
Infantry - for non-mechanized troops

Additional ideas:
Space Monster - for monster races and perhaps monster tamers / magic races / robots gone amuck in various mods
Monster Troop - monsters for invading planets! (If your race is able to tame monsters or build maniacal death robots, it is reasonable to expect that it could use both its own people and the monsters/robots as troops, and should have different models for the monsters/robots than for the regular troops!

[President_Elect_Shang]

Short stick in the sense that we set the Neo++ to low. Shorting ourselves out of those models the few would have created had it been higher. Set the Neo (NEO+ or whatever) to a more reasonable level. Set the NEO++ as the "Cream of the Crop" and let everyone know from the start that it is a point to aspire. Not something they must do. Set up the NEO+ and NEO++ that way and everyone wins! If all else fails a shipset maker can still fall back on Stock standards.

[Atrocities]

Imperator Fyron said:
A lot of SE4 ship set authors never bothered with neostandard images, due to the extra work involved.



I don't think that is a correct or fair statement. There is no direct proof that they didn't want to make more ships, they just didn't. That is unless they posted that that was why they never made more ships.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Atrocities said:
I don't think that is a correct or fair statement. There is no direct proof that they didn't want to make more ships, they just didn't. That is unless they posted that that was why they never made more ships.



Good point Atrocities. I still think in the end it will depend on the resident shipset expert to give the final call. Which is you! Fyron and I and everyone else can beat this subject to death. I think you should spell it out for us. What is the Neo+ and Neo++ going to have? What do you want from us modders? Once you have what you need from us push ahead with the project. You will be the leader setting the standard for SE5. As I said already, this is the realm of the shipset maker. Take what we modders say with a grain of salt. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif You know how we love to piss and moan between each other anyway. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Fyron]

I think the modders are a bit more important than shipset authors in determining what the neostandard needs... Shipset authors that are so inclined will make whatever modders ask for. What will be used by modders is what the neostandard needs to be. The goal here was to see what modders needed, then we could come up with a list. This most certainly shouldn't be determined by just one person.

Atrocities said:
I don't think that is a correct or fair statement. There is no direct proof that they didn't want to make more ships, they just didn't. That is unless they posted that that was why they never made more ships.

Well, I've spoken to a number of ship set authors about this stuff in the past... Some didn't have the time, some didn't care about making extra images. Others did. Remember, the vast majority of SE4 ship set authors only made one or two sets.

[Shadowstar]

I'm both a modder and a shipset maker. I can't tell you what other modders will want, but for Starscape, I don't have any plans to use more than the stock ships. However, Starscape is also a very emergent mod. It grows as it is played. During the SE4 episodes of the mod, eventually I ended up creating some ships designed for a monster race but for storyline reasons, it eventually became possible for players to construct thier own variants of these ships and I moved the pics from the monster race's folder into the generic folder.

Eventually, Tau (our resident model-whiz player) ended up making an entire shipset that included a great many designs that were unique for the next version of Starscape. We're talking beyond Neostandard++, this was totally dedicated stuff.

My experiences may be unique among modders, but I convey them here to illustrate a point: mods, even those that are developed around supporting stock, can go off on some pretty wild tangents. Neostandard++ may be designed around supporting them, but how far from the norm can you go without going too far? Where do you draw the lines? When does a ship model go from "potentially useful" to "prohibitively unique"?

[President_Elect_Shang]

Fyron what makes you think shipset artists build sets based on the needs of the modder? Which modder is going to sit on their mod till a shipset is made? Isn't that like counting the chickens before they hatch? We need one person to take charge of this mess and make this take form. Otherwise us modders will sit here and squabble about the standard till we get it perfected to the point of overkill. While we do that what will these shipset artist you speak of, the ones who wait on us modders hand and foot be doing? I say let At take charge, we tell him what we want, he decides what is feasible and practical, and then he puts it into action. Then all our adoring shipset artists/slaves can get to work. Otherwise I have a big a** statue still waiting to be built on my homeworld they could be working on! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Sorry but I have to disagree with you on this one little detail.

[shinigami]

No one expects anybody to sit on their hands waiting for anything. The vehiclesizes file has primary and alternate calls for models. The modder uses whatever he wants for the primary and uses a standard ship for the alternate. No work stoppage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif If a standard is adopted later, great, the modder can patch his mod.

As for artists catering to modders, most artists want to see their stuff being used so they kinda have to work with the modders, in a partnership, for lack of a better term.

[Fyron]

The SE4 neostandard was created precisely to cater to the needs of existing mods. Any SE4 ship set author that made his set comply with the neostandard was precisely making his set cater to the needs of modders.

=0=

Let's get this back on track... a few people have posted lists of most needed distinct hulls. What about everyone else? What do you think is most needed?

[President_Elect_Shang]

Ok, Ok, fine I hear you. Still don't see it that way but that is another way to explain the same thing. Moving right along...

Shuttles to represent warp capable small craft.
More Base and Freighter sizes oh so badly!
As for a list what kind of list? I say Juggernaut and you say that is a class not a size. How many warships? I say we need at least:

Explorer
Frigate
Destroyer
Cruiser
Battleship
Dreadnought
Monitor
Juggernaut

Baseship has always seemed like a class not a size to me and Stock Light Cruiser can be used for one of the above. Unique models are nice but what do we need? That really depends on the mod you are talking about. SJ gave his list but I don't need those. I need Shuttle and Pinnace and the rest are more selections of warships, freighters, and bases. More fighters to pick from would be nice but I only use one troop.

[Suicide Junkie]

Of course, ALL of those are roles/classes, and not sizes.
(Though many do have typical sizes, even the ordering isn't fixed over time)

[President_Elect_Shang]

Thank you SJ, that is just the point I was making with my comment here:

President_Elect_Shang said:
As for a list what kind of list? I say Juggernaut and you say that is a class not a size.


To me those are sizes of ships not roles/classes. I honestly do not understand the definition you guys are using. To me a role is "Scout Ship" and a class is "Agamemnon Class" but "Destroyer" is a size. I would read the above example as:
Scout Ship - Agamemnon Class Destroyer
I don't think you guys are using the U.S. Navy standard (I'm not saying am either) so what makes a size a size?

[Suicide Junkie]

Are you sure?

Destroyer is what it does...
Battleship is what it does...
Cruiser is what it does...

I only use those names because I haven't come up with a better system yet... GritEcon uses "200kt General Hull", and such, but those are a bit bland.

[President_Elect_Shang]

This is the classifications the U.S. Navy (http://www.nvr.navy.mil/class.htm) uses. Now if you look at that and compare it with what you guys have been saying everything listed on this page would be considered a role, a size, and a class. So what are you guys saying [precisely] is a size? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

Edit type-o's

[President_Elect_Shang]

Suicide Junkie said:
Are you sure?

Destroyer is what it does...
Battleship is what it does...
Cruiser is what it does...

I only use those names because I haven't come up with a better system yet... GritEcon uses "200kt General Hull", and such, but those are a bit bland.



Yes I am 100% sure; however, using a bland system is not a bad idea SJ. Does it matter what we call them here? In a mod they will be renamed by the mod's maker. Here aren't we just trying to get sizes laid out for inclusion? So why can't the model have a generic (or bland as you call it) name?

Edited: Ok SJ I get your comment above (or below depending on display mode). So I edited the "but" to a "however" to clarify what I was saying.

[Suicide Junkie]

Well, the main issue is that whatever we do has to be backwards compatible with stock.

Otherwise I'd suggest a simple Warship1 through warship9, plus transport1 through 3 and similar stuff.

PS:
I meant, are you sure I'm agreeing with you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[President_Elect_Shang]

Well since there are three calls for the model name in VehicleSizes.txt I didn't consider backward compatibility to be an issue. If you do though please explain since we should address and resolve that issue before proceeding. May I make a suggestion to kick it off please?

Vehicle Portrait Primary = NEO++
Vehicle Portrait Alternate = NEO+
Vehicle Portrait Default = Stock Standard

That is a good enough resolution. So long as there is a manner in which any modder can come along and easily tell which hull is larger than which. So Warship1 would be the smallest and Warship9 the largest, for example that is. And continuing along with the same example:

Warship1 = NEO++ = NEO+ = *Frigate
Warship2 = NEO++ = *MP = *MP
Warship3 = NEO++ = NEO+ = *Destroyer
Warship4 = NEO++ = NEO+ = *Light Cruiser
Warship5 = NEO++ = NEO+ = *Cruiser
Warship6 = NEO++ = NEO+ = *Battleship
Warship7 = NEO++ = NEO+ = *Dreadnought
Warship8 = NEO++ = NEO+ = *MP
Warship9 = NEO++ = NEO+ = *Baseship
*XXXX = Current Stock Size
*MP = Modder Picks one above or below.

Now clearly this is a rough draft of sorts but I think it conveys the basic idea right? Which is each "step" should be a little higher standard than the one before.

I thought you were disagreeing with me? That Destroyer (et el) isn't a size. Edit 2: I changed my previous post to make it clearer.

Edited: My chart was vague about stock, just trying to make it less confusing.

[Suicide Junkie]

What I meant was, you can't name the file warship3, since that would not work in a stock game.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I'm still confused; why not? Unless I understand something wrong or just misunderstand what you are calling the "file" won't the following happen when SE5 runs?

Name: Big Freaken Ship
Short Name, Description, blah, blah, blah
Vehicle Portrait Primary: [%EmpireName%]_Portrait_Warship3.bmp (Oops can't find it next line)
Vehicle Portrait Alternate: [%EmpireName%]_Portrait_Warship3.bmp (Oops can't find it next line)
Vehicle Portrait Default: [%EmpireName%]_Portrait_Destroyer.bmp (Ah there it is I found that bmp)

Primary = NEO++
Alternate = NEO+
Default = Stock

Why won't that work if all the modders and shipset makers know that the agreed upon standard is Warship3 for the third largest hull size which is also the Destroyer in Stock.

Now if you are saying because "Stock doesn't use that name so Stock games won't be able to use that shipset" I say no problem. Either (1) we can get Aaron to change Primary and leave the rest in Stock alone; which would cover both NEO++ and NEO+ makers. Or (2) we can stipulate "This is a NEO# set and requires the instillation of the modified Stock file located at www_blahblahblah_blah.". Or finally (3) we can do both and be doubly covered.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Just to avoid confusion I am suggesting we ask Aaron to include an altered Stock file one of us makes for him. The new Stock would look like this, still using the DD as our example.

Name: Destroyer
Short Name, Description, blah, blah, blah
Vehicle Portrait Primary: [%EmpireName%]_Portrait_Warship3.bmp
Vehicle Portrait Alternate: [%EmpireName%]_Portrait_Destroyer.bmp
Vehicle Portrait Default: [%EmpireName%]_Portrait_Destroyer.bmp

Now we have a NEO shipsets covered for Stock. Heck I'll make the file myself once we agree on what we want. I need a break from this AI anyway! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

[Phoenix-D]

Half the point of the neo-standard is stock (and the Balance Mod) don't require modification. I mean, what if you've got half neo-standard ships and half stock?

Besides, what the image FILE is named really doesn't have that big of an impact on how the image is used..

[President_Elect_Shang]

Phoenix-D said:
Half the point of the neo-standard is stock (and the Balance Mod) don't require modification. I mean, what if you've got half neo-standard ships and half stock?

Besides, what the image FILE is named really doesn't have that big of an impact on how the image is used..



I'm sorry PD no offense but I honestly don't understand any of what you are trying to say here?

[Fyron]

All we need to do is clearly indicate the relative positioning new sizes should have compared to the stock sizes. Is this one the biggest warship? The smallest? Between cruiser and battlecruiser? For a mod, you can arbitrarily remap the model names to whatever hull class names you want. Don't have an escort, but want to use all the hulls? Ok, start your mod's destroyer using the "escort" hull, light cruiser using the "destroyer" hull, and work your way up from there. If someone uses a non-neostandard set, they get the two smallest hulls using the destroyer model, rather than the two largest hulls using dreadnought.

I don't think that we should suggest that shipset modelers completely rename the stock sizes. That will just sow confusion.

I don't think we should insert extra hull sizes in the middle of the progression anyways. Maybe one at the small end and one at the large end (not counting a worldship). That would increase the range of warship hulls from 7 to 9 (counting the baseship hull as a standard image, since it is called for by stock, though most stock sets don't include one).

[President_Elect_Shang]

So we are back to square one, what are the new suggested sizes. Sizes not classes or roles! I think Explorer and Escort are sizes but both have been tossed back as roles/classes. How about Corvette then on the low end and Juggernaut on the high end? That's two more for nine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Phoenix-D]

I'm sorry PD no offense but I honestly don't understand any of what you are trying to say here?



Any neo-standard should not require modifying stock or changing the names of any of the stock files.

[Shadowstar]

An explorer can be a big ship with weapons and science equipment, like the Enterprise, or it can be a small ship designed to be cheap and fast. An Escort can be a small ship like a police cutter, or a medium ship, like an interceptor.

A simplified approach seems best in my opinion. Here is what I would suggest: (stock sizes are marked with *'s, new stuff is marked with +'s)

Units (troops covered seperately):
* Small
* Medium
* Large
+ Special (For mods, looks like a medium version with some extra bits - one for each unit type. Fighters could use this size as a shuttle, drones could use it as a probe, etc.)

Troops:
* Small Troop
* Medium Troop
* Large Troop
+ Infantry (this seems to be widely requested so might as well put it in)
+ Special Troop (special type with some unusual looks to it, for mods, maybe unneeded?)

Warships:

* frigate (also used for escorts, recon ships, cutters)
* destroyer (also heavy frigates, patrol ships)
* light cruiser (corvettes, destroyer-escorts)
* cruiser
* battleship (also lineships, flagships)
* dreadnought (man-o-wars, juggernaughts, megatonners)
* baseships (motherships, super-megatonners, nubians)
+ worldships (deathstars, city-ships, generation ships)
+ special light (An unusual-looking ship, about the size of a light cruiser, for mods)
+ special heavy (An unusual-looking ship, slightly smaller than a dreadnought, for mods)

Transports:
* small freighter
* medium freighter
* large freighter
+ special transport (special type with some unusual looks to it, for mods)

Carriers:
* light carrier
* medium carrier
* heavy carrier
+ special (special type with some unusual looks to it, for mods)

Bases:
* space station (orbital forts, orbital construction yards)
* starbase (defense stations, mining bases)
+ special (special type with some unusual looks to it, for mods)

By using special types for the majority of new sizes, it leaves alot of room open for the designer to make race-unique ships, and have those ships then adapt to whatever mod they are inserted into. It's important to remember that what we are designing here doesn't stop at the sizes of the ships, but is really much more connected to what they look like. For certain ships, there is no reason to really have them look any different, but for others there needs to be a visual difference, both in size AND shape.

It should also be noted that many of the units have universal defaults, so instead of designing 3 different troops, you could just make one and call it "troop" and it would use that for all 3. I mention this because anyone who is planning on doing the extra work involved in making a Neostandard++ shipset is most likely going to also be making these extra models which are still technically stock.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Shadowstar I never said they weren't also roles and classes I said for me they are sizes too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

You have done a fine job outlining what may be added for a NEO++. Now what are they going to be called; "Special.bmp"? Worldship and baseship don't count.

[Shadowstar]

I'd say stick with the stock naming scheme when possible. Treat special as a size/modifier. IE: special weapon platform.x, special drone.x, special light.x, special heavy.x, special base.x, etc.

[Fyron]

Ok, to get this rolling again, what do we think of this as the neo-standard? This would add 6 unique hulls to the stock set.

Keep in mind that the stock game already has a lot of "neostandard" type models called for, but not in general use. They add about 15 extra possible models shipset authors can already add to their sets and see used in the stock game.

Warships

+ Corvette/Scout (sub-frigate sized ship, name up in the air)
+ Juggernaut (super-dreadnought, not the same as baseship)
+ Worldship (generally spheroid, for the death stars et all)

Baseship is already called for by stock, but not used. A note about this would be good.

Carriers

Light and Heavy already called for by stock, so I don't think we really need any more.

Civilian Ships

+ Resource Ship (not positive on this one's general utility, but many seem to like it)

Small/Large freighters already called for by stock.

Bases

+ Battle Station (base to go between space station and starbase, as in all previous SE versions)

Units

+ Infantry (non-mechanized troop unit)

Small/Medium/Large unit versions of all units are already called for as primary models/layouts, though generally not used in stock shipsets, so we don't need to include those as part of the neostandard. A note about them would suffice.

[Baron Munchausen]

Space stations are underpowered in the SE series. The lack of need for movement should allow a much size greater advantage.

How about calling the basic station an 'Outpost'? After all, they start at 600 kt, which is merely the size of a cruiser. Add a few levels so it can reach 1500 kt. Then you can have a true 'space station' start at 2000 kt or so. And then bump starbases up to something more. At least 3500 kt. They should max-out at 5000-6000 kt or so.

For ship sizes, we don't need anything smaller. We need a class between dreadnought and baseship, though. Maybe borrow 'Titan' class from Moo? Or even Behemoth and Leviathan from Moo3. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Baseship should still be the largest, and still use the starbase model. And it should be limited to a movement rate of ONE in all circumstances. It's just too huge to move faster without miraculous 'Q' powers.

[Suicide Junkie]

IMO, we don't need more ship sizes. We need to make the ones we have, useful.

Same with weapons. What good is a space station full of random heroes when you can put a superman in every police car?

[Fyron]

The juggernaut was meant to go between the dreadnought and the baseship; then you have the worldship for the crazily massive stuff.

We can't rename the space station hull, and making a sub-600 kt base would be silly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif You can call your hulls whatever you want in your own mod; we just need common names for models.

Much of your post is about a specific mod, not a generic set of hull models. Same with SJ's post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Atrocities]

Nice list Fyron... I say go.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Escort and Monitor.

[dogscoff]

I don't have se5 (haven't even played the demo), so maybe I'm not the best person to be commenting here, but that never stopped me opening my mouth before. I also haven't read much of this thread. Anyway, taking into account the resizing feature, I'd say the best list I've seen so far is Ed Kolis'



Scout - we need something that suggests a small ship sacrificing firepower for speed and/or range

Baseship - OK, it's already referred to in the data files, but no stock shipsets actually have any.

Worldship - for the doom stars, deeath stars, terror stars, battlemoons of our evil overlords

Resource Ship - for robo-miners and such (don't really need a resource base as the base hulls are general purpose - only the Battle Station has a military connotation)

Infantry - for non-mechanized troops



These (with the possible exception of the scout) are the hull shapes that can't be achieved by resizing existing models, and that will be used by modders. Scouts, worldships and infantry were certainly popular in se4 with both modders and shipset makers alike, so I think those are the ones that need to be made. And once you have a worldship/scout model, the modder can resize it to offer small/medium/large/huge worldships/scouts and so on.


Although I disagree with all the monster stuff he went on with after: I think that's probably too mod and race-specific to be included in every shipset.

[Suicide Junkie]

You could always steal a planet model to use as your default worldship like I did for SE4's P&N mod.

...that rock world with the big crater that looks like a death star...

[AstralWanderer]

Given that SE5 allows variable tonnages for a class based on tech and that models can be scaled to correspond with this, it would seem better to have models and classes linked to roles rather than pure size.

Variations on tonnage would then be dealt with by added a prefix to the class (e.g. Small, Medium, Large, Super, Giant, Titan, Star, Galaxy). An exception could be made for warships where there is a need for a very wide range of sizes and there is a standard list of terms (from both naval terminology and previous SE games).

Military
-Warship (ship-to-ship combat)
--Frigate
--Destroyer
--Cruiser
--Battlecruiser
--Dreadnaught
--Behemoth
--Deathstar
-Defence (fleet defence via PD, shields or armour, repair/resupply)
--Escort
--Defender
--Baseship
-Carrier
-Fighter
--Interceptor (targets other fighters)
--Bomber (targets capital ships)
-Drone (automated targeting)
-Non-ship units
--Starbase
---Construction
---Combat
--Weapons Platform
--Troop
---Infantry (planet defense)
---Armour (planet offense)
Non-Military
-Explorer (high speed, extra supplies)
-Transport
-Coloniser
-(Resource) Extractor
-Terra/Astraformer (for Stellar Manipulation)
Special
-Space Monsters
-Racial Specific
-Technology Specific

Having much larger ship classes available would fit the ethos of a game allowing Ringworlds and Dyson Spheres and also allow for the more "significant" items of Stellar Manipulation to be made much larger, requiring bigger ships (a planet buster should need to be Death Star sized at least...).

The downside is that forcing roles on specific classes could limit player flexibility in fleet design - but for multiplayer games it gives a reasonable idea of opponents' fleet makeup (e.g. offensive/defensive).

[Phoenix-D]

Again, the neo-standard is supposed to apply to many mods. Its a request for commonly used MODELS, not for mod ideas. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

The point that the neostandard would do well to expand on the roles of a ship rather than just a lot of sizes is a good one still.

[se5a]

lets bully aaron into giving us a size multiplyer in the vehicle sizes.txt, that way we can use say, the frigate model, give it a mutiplyer of .75 and call it an escort.

also with the carriers, since there's only one model, give the larger ones a multiplyer of 1.25 and 1.5
that way you can easly see that it's bigger in combat, without having to have a whole new model.

ditto with the troops sats, mines, drones fighters and anything else that shares models.

[Phoenix-D]

There IS a size multiplier- but for some reason its in each empire file, so you need to define separate entries there. You can re-use the same model.

[Fyron]

That is exactly the wrong solution to the problem, though. It needs to be mod-controllable, not shipset-dependent.

[Phoenix-D]

Mods -can- control those files, actually. I've been doing it with mine. Its obviously not an ideal solution, since the mod maker needs to add each custom ship set in manually or the shipset maker has to add files for each mod.

[Fyron]

That was exactly the point... it is not a mod data file-dependent solution.

[Rasorow]

Just a suggestion... may not be worth anything, but with all the size possiblities already in the game for ships (not discussing bases) maybe the standard should not be so much size but installable features? For example a higher allowance of engines, more armor slots, etc.


Rasorow

[Fyron]

Installable number of engines is purely a mod-based feature, not really something that has to do with models. Armor slots, maybe, but your mod can simply use a slot override file if you need to do something fancy and unusual.