OT: VISTA

[Atrocities]

Ok, who here is going to go buy this latest MS product? Can your PC even run this bloated POS OS? Is it a POS OS? Is is being sold in a buggy state, or as Microsoft claims, "the most tested peace of software they have ever released."

Is it worth paying $400.00 for? Is is not worth paying $400.00 for? Do we really need it? With Win2k and XP only a few years old, why should we even bother buying Vista?

Given Microsoft's glorious history, would you trust this bit of software on your PC or will you wait until SP 2 comes out?

I am a mixed bag. First I don't think its going to be easy to upgrade, secondly I doubt my computer will run it, and its only 3 years old, and thirdly, I ain't going to pay $400.00 for a bit of software from a company that has a dubious history of releasing crap OS software onto the market, resulting in crashed PC's lost data, and headacks all the while telling people that they upgrade at their own risk.

Nor do I want to run out and buy a new PC just because HP and other have retrofitted some old 2002 junker, gave it a new case, and are now marketing these antiques as Vista Capable ready to use PC's, knowing full well the 99% of them are returned broken, half *** fixed 2002 junkers.

No thanks, I will wait for Vista SP2 or SP3 before risking my data to another Microsaft product upgrade.

[Kamog]

Well, I'm not going to upgrade to Vista at this time because I'm OK with using XP. Eventually when I buy a new computer and if it comes with Vista, that's when I'll switch.

[President_Elect_Shang]

Screw Vista XP isn't causing me heartburns. In fact I have never had a problem with XP.

[Atrocities]

NEW YORK — Retailers around the world stayed open through the wee hours of Tuesday morning to sell the long-awaited Windows Vista operating system, even though most knew customers wouldn't be lining up out the door.

At a CompUSA store in Raleigh, only about a dozen people braved temperatures in the upper 20s to be among the first consumers to get Vista, despite free coffee and discounts on other items including printers and recordable DVDs



There is an ancient and often very accurate word for these kind of people... SUCKER

Or as Microsoft says "Caveat Emptor." (Let The buyer beware.)

[Atrocities]

Well you can bet your sweet arse that come the next XP update, XP will be causing many "new" problems. Microsoft will introduce a system destabilizing bug that will cause nothing but massive problems for all XP users thus forcing them to go out and buy VISTA.

[Randallw]

End of this year I may buy a new computer, leaning towards yes at the moment. I'm doing well these days what with a new job along with my benefits. I expect it'll have Vista, though I'll keep an eye on it beforehand. I'm a bit anxious actually as I hear horror stories of new computers people buy. My current one doesn't have such problems partly I think because the son of someone my mother knows custom built it. I have an Acer at work which showed me for once what a bad computer can be like.

I wouldn't be staying up all night just to be the first to buy stuff for 3 reasons, off the top of my head.

1. Why spend top dollar when with a bit of restraint and patience you can get it when the cost goes down after the initial bluster.

2. It's just a OS. I will not die if I don't have it, and I am opposed to wasting effort/making more of something beyond realistic standards. Same goes for why I do not go to midnight screenings of movies (but then I hardly bother with cinemas anyway)

3. I control my life. I decide what is important, not get carried away by bluster and hype.

[Kamog]

For many years I used Windows 98 even when XP was available. I was very happy with Windows 98 and it was very stable and rarely had problems. Then I switched to ME which was a mistake. Upgrading from ME to XP was a good move though.

[Atrocities]

DO NOT BUY AN HP COMPUTER!!! You have been warned! They refurbish older PC's and then sell them as new. I fell prey to this and I sware to God they do this! Not only did it happen to me, but it has happened to many people including my mother most recently. I told her NOT TO BUY AN HP COMPUTER, but she went out and bought one any ways and a week later the CD Rom stopped working. She called it in to their tech support and after giving them the "new" pc's serial number, was asked if she was "so and so." That her PC had been sent in for repair a year earlier.

HP IS CRAP! THEY SELL USED/REFURBISHED COMPUTERS AS NEW COMPUTERS. They just take the old parts out and put them into a new case and then sell them as new models.

Dell. I cannot tell you not to buy a Dell, but one has to wonder if one should buy a computer form a company that can't even spell its name without using a crooked E. I mean if their that dyslexic would you trust them to build you a computer?

[Suicide Junkie]

Is is being sold in a buggy state, or as Microsoft claims, "the most tested peace of software they have ever released."
Yes.

My PC came with ME; its still got a sticker to that effect, but I upgraded to 98, and I've been happy ever since. (Forgiving the hardware issues, such as that powersupply that put out 13v instead of 12v)

As a bonus, all the new exploits simply don't work against it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Atrocities]

I am sorry SJ, but isn't moving from ME to 98 a down grade? ME was released in 2000, 98 was released in well, 98.

[Kana]

If one is looking to buy a PC, I say go here and build what you want. It's reasonably priced for what you get.

http://www.cyberpowerpc.com/

[Atrocities]

That is a cool site Kana. Thanks.



$2229.00
(before all applicable rebates)


CASE: CoolerMaster Praetorian 730 RC-730 Aluminum Tower 420W Case (Black Color)
CPU: (Sckt775)Intel® Core™ 2 Duo E6400 CPU @ 2.13GHz 1066FSB 2x1MB L2 Cache EM64T
MOTHERBOARD: Asus P5N32-SLI SE Deluxe nForce4 SLI Chipset LGA775 Supports Core 2 Duo CPU FSB1066 DDR2/800 Mainboard w/GbLAN, USB2.0, IEEE1394&7.1Audio
MEMORY: (Req.DDR2 MainBoard)1GB (2x512MB) PC6400 DDR2/800 Dual Channel Memory (Corsair Value Select or Major Brand)
VIDEO CARD: NEW!!! NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GTS 640MB 16X PCI Express (Major Brand Powered by NVIDIA)
VIDEO CARD 2: NONE
LCD Monitor: NONE
HARD DRIVE: Single Hard Drive (250GB SATA-II 3.0Gb/s 8MB Cache 7200RPM HDD)
Data Hard Drive: 250GB SATA-II 3.0Gb/s 8MB Cache 7200RPM Hard Drive -- Recommended
Optical Drive: (Special Price) 18X DVD±R/±RW + CD-R/RW DRIVE DUAL LAYER (BLACK COLOR)
Optical Drive 2: COMBO DRIVE (16X DVD-ROM & 52x32x52 CD-RW) (BLACK COLOR)
SOUND: HIGH DEFINITION ON-BOARD 7.1 AUDIO

[Kana]

Yeah if I had to buy a custom made PC, that is where I would go, I've had some friend be very satisfied with what they recieved.

[Atrocities]

Its the selection, I just don't know what would be best. I mean with so many parts choices which parts are the best for my needs.

I would like to have a nice gaming platform for the next three years. So obviously a high end Geforce Card is a must, 2.1 Ghz Duo-Core process would work, and say 1 gig memory with dual 250 gig HD drives. A nice set of DVD/RW/CDRW drives would be needed, and of course very good case cooling and a 600 watt power supply.

Past that.... what is the best MB, do I need better CPU cooling? What about other extras? Should I go with SLI or stick with top of the line Geforce PCIex card?

What about sound, stick with on board or go with something else?

And then there is VISTA... professional or not... I bought Win2k Pro and XP Pro and have been happy with both. So perhaps ****A pro might be the best fit, say for the price.

[Fyron]

With Win2k and XP only a few years old...

XP has actually had the longest life as the top OS from MS (at least, the windows ones). It was never meant to take this long to make Vista...

Plus, Vista only costs $400 if you buy the ultimate edition. You probably don't actually need the ultimate edition, and would be fine with home premium.

Microsoft will introduce a system destabilizing bug that will cause nothing but massive problems for all XP users thus forcing them to go out and buy VISTA.

This sort of paranoia is just as bad as the WPA kill switch malarky. Did they ever do that to any win9x? No. Did they do it to Win2k? No. Will they do it to XP? No. It doesn't make any sense for them to _ever_ do such a thing.

Kana said:
Yeah if I had to buy a custom made PC, that is where I would go, I've had some friend be very satisfied with what they recieved.

Wouldn't it still be cheaper to spend an hour putting the parts together yourself?

[Atrocities]

Oh they say they don't do things like introduce bugs but lets face it, if they want people to buy vista, they could do something as evil as introduce a bug into the next and presumably last security update for XP. But will they, well who knows, if someone in programing has a lot of stock in MS and they want to sell it while its on the high side, what better way than to force people to upgrade. Not that these kind of thing never happen and all. No, they would never do such a thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Bring this up in two years if were still around here and then we can talk.

Ya building your own system is fine, but there are set backs. Its better that you let someone else build it for you. They also seem to get better prices on parts do to bulk purchases and they warranty their products. If you build your own system and screw things up, your screwed.

[Fyron]

It would ruin them. Think of all the business customers that _can't_ upgrade to Vista until proper product testing cycles are complete, the software they need to do business is updated to work, etc. Tons of business computers still run windows 2000, you know...

[shinigami]

For me upgrading to Vista is out of the question. Built-in DRM crap that won't let me watch a high-def movie that I paid for on my monitor just because it doesn't have the "correct" connectors? No, thank you.

[Arralen]

Windows 95
Latest version ("c") worked quite well - as long as you didn't asked for
- networking/internet
- package writing support
- USB
...& other fancy things
Had a Win95 (without a,b,c) run for 3,5 years without any problems - until I replaced it with W2k to be able to use Internet Connection Sharing.


Windows 98
Second version ("Second Edition") is quite a nice OS - for a standalone-PC, again. Security is non-existant. Can't really cope with apps which use 512MB RAM ...


Windows ME
Crap.
Really.
The first try from M$ with the next generation of artifical isolation between user (interface) and whats really going on under the hood - where the unsecure and unstable Win9x base and M$-DOS were still present.
Consumer product with 5 years of "support", which are over by now.


Windows NT 4
With service pack 6 finally an OS that could do more than connect to a network securely. Lacked, nevertheless.


Windows 2000 (NT 5.0)
I'm happy with W2k on all my comps for quite some time now - usually 'til the HDD dies, and then I simply re-install again on the new one.
Sadly, the "Extended Support" will cease on 07-13-2010.


Windows XP Professional (NT 5.1)
If I had to get a new Windows license, I would take XP Professional at any time. It will be supported until 2014.
Windows XP home / media center edition
Castraded crap. Every user having admin rights is the cause for all the trouble with trojans/virii/spy- and addware.

Support for all versions of XP will last 'til 2014, btw.
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2007/jan07/01-24ExtendedSupportWindowsMA.mspx


Windows Vista
You don't have to buy the most expensive verions.
Do you really need
- support for 2 real CPUs ?
- Users/Groups with different rights (NOT everyone admin) ?
- "runas" option ?
- imaging of the system partition for backup purposes ?
- to be able to connect to a domain ?
- remote desktop server (service) ?
- dynamic storage media ?
If you need any of those, you'll have to get the "Business" Edition (369 Euro full, 249 Euro upgrade, 139 Euro system builder version)

If you want to get
- Media Center
- DVD-Replay (MPEG2)
- Moviemaker
as well, please choose "Ultimate" Edition. (499/329/189 Euro)


And what if you DON'T NEED
- DRM
- overboarding hardware requirements
- more colorful desktop
- more hidden system settings
.. what are you going to do ?????????

I simply hope that when support for W2k/XP ceases it will be time to switch to:
http://www.reactos.org/

[frightlever]

Imperator Fyron said:
[b]
Plus, Vista only costs $400 if you buy the ultimate edition. You probably don't actually need the ultimate edition, and would be fine with home premium.





I was looking at this myself and think the Business is a better bet because you gain better networking and remote desktop facilities and get rid of the bloaded media centre extensions. But no interest in getting either until I need a new PC.

Ah, missed the second page. ReactOS? WinXP compatible OS? I personally wouldn't be any hurry to donate money to that project and I wouldn't be holding my breath for anything to ever get released either.

[PDF]

I've switched from 98 to XP .. les than 2 years ago ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
So let's wait a couple of years, we'll have a debugged Vista SP2, the DX10 hardware will be affordable and we'll have some software really using it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Atrocities said:
I am sorry SJ, but isn't moving from ME to 98 a down grade? ME was released in 2000, 98 was released in well, 98.

Upgrade means improving something.
If the AI decided to retrofit your APB XIIs to MB Is, just because you had finally researched Energy Pulse Weapons, would YOU call that an upgrade? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Ironmanbc]

I also went from 98se to Xp pro and I think it's great.

Some of my friends got the home Xp and are having trouble with it (oh well) I'm still running an 1.4g with 1g ram Ati 9200 video Soundblaster Live

It works well playing WoW

[Arralen]

frightlever said:
ReactOS? WinXP compatible OS? I personally wouldn't be any hurry to donate money to that project and I wouldn't be holding my breath for anything to ever get released either.


Acutally, they have released v0.3.0 quite some time ago, and it already works with some windows apps - e.g. Firefox can be used for WWW access.
What is a great accomplishment in itself. Coding an OS ain't easy for sure.

Interestingly enough, one of the core developers of ReactOS claims to have found a way to crack Vista's DRM ...
http://www.heise-security.co.uk/news/84536

[Tim_Ward]

Atrocities said:
I am a mixed bag. First I don't think its going to be easy to upgrade, secondly I doubt my computer will run it, and its only 3 years old, and thirdly, I ain't going to pay $400.00 for a bit of software from a company that has a dubious history of releasing crap OS software onto the market, resulting in crashed PC's lost data, and headacks all the while telling people that they upgrade at their own risk.




How is that being "a mixed back", exactly? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/yawn.gif Maybe it's just me, but it seems like a rather firm "no".

[Atrocities]

Then NO it is.

[Kana]

Imperator Fyron said:
Kana said:
Yeah if I had to buy a custom made PC, that is where I would go, I've had some friend be very satisfied with what they recieved.

Wouldn't it still be cheaper to spend an hour putting the parts together yourself?



Actually no...I've priced a few 'custom' computers, even stuff from the big names like Dell, and HP. For the price, and the fact that most offer some form of warranty and support (how ever bad it is) above and beyond what even a manufacture gives you really can't beat. I mean if it comes to you, and it doesnt work, or something isn't right, or a lemon, you just return the PC, and you get a new one from them, its called customer service. If you yell loud enough and to the right people you usually will get what you want. If I order the parts, and somehow screw up something installing it, I have little or no recourse to replace said part or even the whole PC. Now it is cheaper, if you want to upgrade a single item like a video card or RAM down the road, yet some of the new machines are a real problem to break down far enough to install the components. Like my current PC will envolve me removing a large chunk of hardware so I can get to the RAM slots.

As for Vista...the only worring point, is that of playing new high end games that require Direct X 10, which is Vista only.

[Fyron]

If a part comes to you and it doesn't work, you can return it just the same. Unless you are buying parts from extremely shady dealers, you are usually ok to return them without even considering going to the manufacturer directly. Newegg.com, for example, has a 1 year replacement policy for many items. Some items only have a 30 day replacement policy, but that's surely enough time to see if anything you bought came broken.

It isn't difficult to buy a case that is easy to work with. You are more likely to get a cramped, crappy case from a whole PC vendor than when you have free reign to choose one yourself.

[PvK]

Vista isn't worth being bribed $1000 to use. It's EVIL.

[PvK]

Atrocities said:
I am sorry SJ, but isn't moving from ME to 98 a down grade? ME was released in 2000, 98 was released in well, 98.

No, because ME was released as a TRAP by M$, to get people to look at XP more positively by comparison. Win 98 is massively better than ME. I think Win 2K Pro (behind a Linux firewall) is currently the best version of Windohs, because it's stable, works, and doesn't have so much annoying crap like M$ authentication, and it wastes fewer system resources. The only negative feature I'm aware of is Remote Desktop isn't as good, but if you don't use that... I say upgrade to Win 2K Pro!

PvK

[Santiago]

Vista is:

1. Overpriced

2. High requirements

3. Incomplete and the initial version will be buggy.

4. Vista does have some nice features but none are that "so outstanding, I got to have right now".

Pass on Vista for quite a while. XP pro works fine.

[PvK]

Digital rights abuse / tyrrany and wasted system resources, too.

[AgentZero]

There's a rumour going around that SE7 will require DirectX 10. Untill then, I'm happy sticking with XP.

[Atrocities]

I have also read that it is not very game friendly, and has issues with older games because of its new Direct X drivers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[shinigami]

The whole DX thing is a nightmare for game developers that may just very well come back to bite M$ in the butt.

[David E. Gervais]

Good news... MS announced yesterday that they were already working on Service Pack 1 for Vista. o..m..g.. less than 48 hours after the launch and they make this announcement?

I was gonna buy vista, but guess what, if SP1 is just around the corner (a year or so I guess based on the speed of getting vista out) I'll wait till the bleeding edge (dare I say idiots) finish beta testing vista for MS at their own risk. (and their own expense).

I searched for 'compatibility' with XP and found nothing of use to me. How would I know if any and all my programs will run under vista?

Anyways, I'm gonna wait. XP works fine and I see no urgent need to jump on the bandwagon.

Nuf said, Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Atrocities]

I have read that VISTA DX 10 is going to revolutionize PC gaming. That VISTA will run older Direct X games, but with some problems. In side by side comparison XP is still a better gaming platform than VISTA, however as more and more game developers start to use DX10, this will change.

I wonder if Aaron should adopt Direct X 10 now and start working on updating SE V to use DX10?

I will wait to get VISTA until I have enough money to have a new gaming system built. Perhaps a year or two out. Until then XP will work just fine.

[President_Elect_Shang]

I was thinking of getting a new system when we get to Washington this year. Maybe I will get one with Vista to find out how great it really is; or, isn't! I have built the last three on my own and each has severed me well for several years apiece. On the other hand back then it was still cheaper to build your own. Anymore though I have to wonder.

[Suicide Junkie]

I have read that VISTA DX 10 is going to revolutionize PC gaming.

Who said that?
We all know how "revolutionary" the Segway turned out to be, for example.

[Atrocities]

It was a gamespot article on VISTA and gaming. They seem to be down at the moment, but once it comes back on line I will find the link.

[Atrocities]

Game Spot Link About VISTA and Gaming (http://www.gamespot.com/features/6164940/index.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=multimodule&tag=m ultimodule;picks;title;5)

[shinigami]

Reading that article really pointed out to me how the computer industry has gotten itself turned around and backwards. Why are the hardware makers conforming to a software maker? Shouldn't it be the software trying to get the most out of the hardware? Imagine how far along the graphics card makers could be if they weren't fettered to a piece of software...

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Use Virtual PC. Run your XP on it.

[Fyron]

That doesn't work very well (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/824622) for trying to run modern or semi-modern 3d games.

[dogscoff]

I'm sick of Windows. The question you really have to be asking is, "what do I use my PC for that I couldn't do with Linux?"

For me, the answer to that question is "Absolutely nothing, except Space Empires."

Web browsing, email, office applications, mediacentre-type stuff, plenty of good games... all of it can be done with Linux. And if you buy a PC without an OS (ie, without Windoze) installed, you can save yourself some £$E.

What versions of Windows will SE5 actaully run on? My next PC (if and when I can ever afford one) will run Linux for 99% of the time, and then have a small, stripped down Windows partition (running a hooky version of 98 or 2000 or XP, NOT Vista) exclusively for Space Empires. I wouldn't even need to go online with that partition (thus negating any security concerns) - I could up/download turn files on the Linux side and then just reboot to play the game.

I think we should hassle Malfador for a Linux version of se6, definitely.

[Randallw]

Try out this flowchart.

Thing is at first I thought the second question was to weed out idiots, then I realised it just means that choice doesn't run Vista.

[Caduceus]

THansk Randall. That was a good laugh.

[Phoenix-D]

According to the readme, SE5 will run on Windows 95. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif The real limit is probably DirectX 8.1, which AFAIK isn't available for anything earlier than 98.

[Suicide Junkie]

Point of trivia: the SE3 demo runs on win3.11
(You merely can't register it, since there is no registry)

[dogscoff]

So I could run a dual boot system, with Linux for all my day-to-day computer needs and a minimal win98 install for SE4 and SE5.

Sounds good to me.

[Phoenix-D]

SE4 will run under WINE or Cedega; I don't think they've gotten SE5 working yet.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

That was funny.

Anyway, new games will probably run on Vista. Which is why you use Virtual PC for the old games.

But I'm just being contrary.

[NullAshton]

The main reason why you shouldn't upgrade to Vista mainly seems to be the system requirements... if you're getting a new computer anyway, no sense in getting XP instead.

[PvK]

It's also the reason you should never upgrade to Vista, because the requirements are components with super-duper-evil copy protection features.

[Atrocities]

I wonder what SE V would look like running DX10, on a VI****A OS?

[Fyron]

narf poit chez BOOM said:
Anyway, new games will probably run on Vista. Which is why you use Virtual PC for the old games.

Any game that came out in the last few years and has high system demands that does not run in Vista for whatever reason will almost certainly not run in Virtual PC. You can run much older games fine, as well as games with low requirements, but fat chance running something like half-life 2 in a hardware emulator.

[Atrocities]

That is a very good point to make Fyron. One that many of use really need to consider if and when we are faced with having to buy a new system. I am going to go buy a new copy of XP Pro later this month to have it on hand. I don't really think VI****A is going to be pre DX10 game player friendly for a good long time if ever.

[PvK]

Atrocities said:
I wonder what SE V would look like running DX10, on a VI****A OS?

If you're super duper extremely lucky, it'd look exactly like it does on Windows 98. Otherwise, it might look and sound blurry, or flicker from blurry to sharp, or censor any images it thought might possibly belong to a major corporation, as its impressive Digital Rights Management kicks in and out.

[Tim_Ward]

Vista's first security hole discovered: two days after release.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6320865.stm


Vista has speech recognition hole

Vista was launched to consumers on Tuesday

Microsoft has admitted that speech recognition features in Vista could be hijacked so that a PC tells itself to delete files or folders.

Vista can respond to vocal commands and concern has been raised about malicious audio on websites or sent via e-mail.

In one scenario outlined by users an MP3 file of voice instructions was used to tell the PC to delete documents.

Microsoft said the exploit was "technically possible" but there was no need to worry.

The firm has pointed out that in order for the flaw to be exploited the speech recognition feature would need to be activated and configured and both microphone and speakers would have to be switched on.
There are also additional barriers that would make an attack difficult
Microsoft security researcher


"The exploit scenario would involve the speech recognition feature picking up commands through the microphone such as 'copy', 'delete', 'shutdown', etc. and acting on them," a Microsoft security researcher wrote on the team's official blog.

Some Vista users have already tested the exploit and were able to delete files and empty the trash can so that the documents were not retrievable.

Microsoft has said that even if the machine was primed to accept voice commands it would be unlikely the user would not be in the room to hear the file with malicious instructions being played.

The firm also said that voice commands could not be used for privileged functions such as creating a new user or formatting a drive.

"There are also additional barriers that would make an attack difficult including speaker and microphone placement, microphone feedback, and the clarity of the dictation," wrote the Microsoft researcher.

While speech recognition was a feature of Windows XP, in Vista the use has been widened.

"While we are taking the reports seriously and investigating them accordingly I am confident in saying that there is little if any need to worry about the effects of this issue on your new Windows Vista installation," said the researcher.



'tis not a critical hole or anything, but it is amusing in light of Microsoft's MOST SECURE OS EVAH claims.

[PDF]

1 GB RAM seems low, with XP it's a minimum so I suppose that with Vi$ta you need double that ...

[PvK]

When M$ says Vista has the most security ever, I think they probably are thinking about all their attempts to keep users from copying any corporate products with it...

[Baron Munchausen]

Because of DX, Windows has prety much locked up the 'flashy' games market. Not good strategy games, though. You can get lots of cool games for Linux like Free Civ. Just not the latest RTS games like Homeworld II or FPS games like Doom. But other than games, there are lots of equivalent options beyond Windows and it's getting better all the time. Linux has the most options ever: Anything important that you can find for Windows you can find for Linux. The Firefox/Seamonkey/K-Meleon and Opera browsers, for example. And Open Office is now a complete replacement for MS Office. And two other complete desktop suites are getting close to complete as well, Gnome and KDE. And you have many choices of who to buy from instead of being locked into one manipulative source. There are even dedicated sites for comparing the various distributions available:

http://distrowatch.com/

[Fyron]

I find Free Civ to be a crappy game, however.

It saddens me that there is no Foobar2000 (http://www.foobar2000.org) for linux. Amarok probably comes the closest, but it just isn't the same. :-\ Then you've got sub-par multi-IM clients like Gaim and Kopete... Linux text editors are either ancient monstrosities like emacs and vim, or they are really basic like Nano or Gedit. I have yet to see any good modern gui "programmers" text editors on linux. sigh..

[Will]

Doom 3 runs on Linux (http://zerowing.idsoftware.com/linux/doom/). As do other id Software titles, such as the Quake series.

Also, there is speculation that the upcoming new version of Trillian, named Astra (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com/ap/), will run on OSX and Linux as well. The developers have said that they got their core engine to compile for both platforms, and hinted that it might be released for more than just Windows. No official announcement as far as I've seen, however. I haven't used Linux as a desktop in a few months, so I'm not sure of the state of IM on the platform. On my Powerbook, I use Adium (http://www.adiumx.com/), which is based on the gAIM engine, and of course, use Trillian on the Windows PC.

If you're looking for "programmer's" text editor, have you tried Eclipse (http://www.eclipse.org/)? As for emacs and vim, the "ancient monstrosity" description may fit emacs, which is on version 21.4 and has been in nearly constant development since at least the 1970s. But vim is a much newer "clone" of the older vi. Once you get used to vim, it is a very powerful editor, absolutely perfect for editing config files.

[Fyron]

Eclipse is an IDE, not just a text editor. It is nice software, but generally overkill.

IMO, vim is a monstrosity, ancient or no. I find the fundamental control scheme to be ridiculous.

Here's hoping "Astra" won't be a bloated flop like Trillian 3 was. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[aegisx]

You don't like Esc-Shift-Z-Z? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Tim_Ward]

You can get lots of cool games for Linux like Free Civ



FreeCiv is the only 4x game except for FreeOrion, who's progress can charitably described as "glacial".


Doom 3 runs on Linux. As do other id Software titles, such as the Quake series.



And the Unreal series. Linux is in fact better served for FPS games than it is for detailed stratagy games.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

aegisx said:
You don't like Esc-Shift-Z-Z? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Ack! Kill it kill it kill it!!!

Who thought up that key combo? A demented platform fighter addict?

[Will]

narf poit chez BOOM said:

aegisx said:
You don't like Esc-Shift-Z-Z? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Ack! Kill it kill it kill it!!!

Who thought up that key combo? A demented platform fighter addict?


It's actually quite simple. The vi editor was designed to be used in a console window, with complete lack of pointer control (e.g., a mouse... sorry Narf http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ). So, the ESC key is just to ensure that you are in command-mode (as opposed to text mode, where doing just Shift-Z-Z would insert two capital Zs wherever the cursor happened to be). Then, IIRC, command ZZ writes the buffer if it has changed, and quits.

But really, the only basic commands you need to know to use vi are:
Esc - get into command mode
Then, once you're in command mode:
i - insert: go into text mode, begin inserting characters at the cursor
:w - write: write the buffer to file
q - quit
h - move cursor left
j - move cursor down
k - move cursor up
l - move cursor right
x - delete: delete the character at the cursor

Really just a few days using it are enough to get a feel for the basics, and start into more advanced things like yy (yank, AKA copy), and p (put, AKA paste) to and from buffers, using the /, s/, g/, etc regular expression commands... it's an absolute lifesaver if you're ever going to encounter a variety of UNIX-y systems, since they are all pretty much guaranteed to have either vi or vim installed.

--edit: almost forgot about the other "real" editor Fyron was looking for... even though it doesn't get any more real than vi http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Check out the Scintilla Text Editor (SciTE) (http://scintilla.org/SciTE.html). It's my "notepad replacement" for Windows, it also has a version for linux. Syntax highlighting for several different languages, brace matching, decent settings tweaking available via GUI, much more powerful tweaking through config files, has option for plaintext search/replace as well as regular expression search/replace, and a bunch of other goodies for programmers.

[Randallw]

My sister rang me up the other day to tell me she can get the education edition of Vista cheaper. What features would this have? Microsoft doesn't have it in their list which leads me to think it's one of the versions but cheaper for people in education.

[Fyron]

I never said vim and emacs were not real, just that they are horrible from a usability perspective. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif This SciTE looks interesting...

[PvK]

Fyron, have you tried EditPad Pro? Open Office?

[Fyron]

Wasn't aware that EditPad had a Linux version. Interesting.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

For any software today to not support a mouse is pretty near inexcusable.

[Ed Kolis]

Says mr. roguelike programmer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Atrocities]

Well people are posting across many game forums that their favorite games don't run well, or at all in VISTA. Many want to know why... DUH... You should have read before you bought. A lot of folks were told by salesmen at best buy, comp usa, and others that VISTA would run their older games better than they are ran in XP.. In other words they were out and out lied too. I have suggested to many that they return their PC's and demand their money back. That they file a formal complaint with their states AGO and that they not buy a new pc from a fast food type electronics retailer.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

'Pretty near'. There are also some webgames.

[shinigami]

M$ better be careful with DX10 being Vista only. This is the same kind of thing that got them in trouble with IE.

[Fyron]

Wasn't the trouble with IE more that they threatened to stop licensing Windows to OEMs that wanted to bundle alternative browsers (and media players, etc.)?

[Atrocities]

I think the only trouble with IE was that it was designed and marketed the way it was in order to KILL netscape.

[capnq]

Microsoft has said that even if the machine was primed to accept voice commands it would be unlikely the user would not be in the room to hear the file with malicious instructions being played.

Oh, that's so reassuring...

I'm sure Vista runs so slowly that when you hear the malicious file playing, you'll be able to move quickly enough to interrupt it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif And everybody has the specialized software you need to restore a file that's already been flushed from the Recycle Bin.

[xierxior]

I tried vista ultimate and I wasn't impressed, the font doesn't scale properly when you increase the dpi to make fonts bigger on very large moniters, it uses ALOT of memory (500+ mb compared to xp's 100mb foot print), DRM is built into the os and I am not a fan of drm, did I mention drm? oh noes you can't copy that mp3!.., the drivers are in a rather beta'ish state right now, vista really doesn't offer anything (new) other then some security measures that helps lockdown the average joes computer, the price 500? wtf.

now the good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

the aereo interface IS very nice looking, for using an boatload of ram it still runs games fairly quickly (on average about 10 fps slower then xp, its alot more secure out of the box then xp is, better networking support then xp.

[xierxior]

narf poit chez BOOM said:
For any software today to not support a mouse is pretty near inexcusable.



you have heard of linux right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Phoenix-D]

xierxior said:

narf poit chez BOOM said:
For any software today to not support a mouse is pretty near inexcusable.



you have heard of linux right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Same thing. I shouldn't have to open a CLI just to get a text editor..

Ubuntu, trying to edit a config file- except I don't have permissions, I need sudo. No equivalent of sudo in the GUI. Worse, the CLI doesn't start in the same folder I was in, so I have to manually navigate back to that folder before I can edit.

[Renegade 13]

What exactly does Vista do with regards to DRM that's different than previous OS's, for example, XP??

[shinigami]

link (http://www.techweb.com/wire/software/167101037)

[Edit] Corrected link.

[PvK]

Also see this article (http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html)!

The Vista Content Protection specification could very well constitute the longest suicide note in history

[Fyron]

You can't really blame MS for HDCP. They couldn't get a license to support full HDMI output without fully implementing HDCP. If they did not, all they could do is output HDCP-protected video at non-HD resolutions. Your scorn in this instance is more correctly placed at the feet of the content industry (primarily the MPAA). HDCP is only an issue with Blu-ray and HD-DVD, not regular DVD movie playback, which does not have the higher-resolution HD support. The MPAA is obsessed with copy protection, and will only license Blu-ray and HD-DVD technology to companies that are willing to integrate HDCP. If they did not require it, MS wouldn't have bothered implementing HDCP. Display manufacturers (monitors, tvs) have to support HDCP as well, otherwise they won't be able to play high resolution movies. Its quite an insidious system...

MS could have chosen to not support HDCP, but then they could not include software to access Blu-ray and HD-DVD movies (or drives, for that matter) at full resolution. They apparently decided it would be better to support new technology than be left behind, and thus ridiculed for that reason.

[Kamog]

Will these Blu-ray and HD-DVD movies be viewable under XP, or do we need to upgrade to Vista to get them to work?

[Fyron]

You can view them in XP now, through the use of 3rd party software (http://www.cyberlink.com/multi/products/main_112_ENU.html). MS just wanted WiMP to be able to play HDCP protected content at full resolution.

[xierxior]

Imperator Fyron said:
You can view them in XP now, through the use of 3rd party software (http://www.cyberlink.com/multi/products/main_112_ENU.html). MS just wanted WiMP to be able to play HDCP protected content at full resolution.



trying to prevent piracy has always been and always will be a losing game.
theres already a primitive key decryptor that works on some blueray movies.
I say give it a year and we'll have another dvd decryptor type program that completely makes the protection obsolite as the only way to fight decryptors is to change the keys that are encyrpted onto the disc but if you do that everyone who bought a blueray or hddvd player will be screwed.
mpaa and riaa are just desperatly trying to hold onto a buisiness module that just doesn't work anymore.

[xierxior]

xierxior said:

Imperator Fyron said:
You can view them in XP now, through the use of 3rd party software (http://www.cyberlink.com/multi/products/main_112_ENU.html). MS just wanted WiMP to be able to play HDCP protected content at full resolution.



trying to prevent piracy has always been and always will be a losing game.
theres already a primitive key decryptor that works on some blueray movies.
I say give it a year and we'll have another dvd decryptor type program that completely makes the protection obsolite as the only way to fight decryptors is to change the keys that are encyrpted onto the disc but if you do that everyone who bought a blueray or hddvd player will be screwed.
mpaa and riaa are just desperatly trying to hold onto a buisiness module that just doesn't work anymore.



I should add that obveusly once you decrypt the movie you can watch it on just about any version of windows without quality loss and without that hdcp crap.

[Fyron]

That primitive "key decryptor" does not actually do anything to break the encryption. It simply makes use of a stolen player key. No crack in the system has yet been found. Its on the same level as a "decryptor" that simply plays the movie with a legitimate, licensed player and captures it frame by frame.

[shinigami]

You are incorrect, sir. The player's key was not used.

link (http://www.slyck.com/story1390.html)

[Fyron]

Guess I missed that update to the story. Either way, the program still depends on you getting the actual encryption keys involved for each movie. It doesn't just strip off AACS arbitrarily like DeCSS did for DVD encryption.

[shinigami]

The programs don't strip the encryption per say, they work around the encryption in order to save an unencrypted movie to your drive. As for getting the keys, these programs are intended for making a legal back-up of a movie that you have bought, so you already have the key, they just yank it out of memory.

[Suicide Junkie]

As I understand it, they let the player use its personal key to decrypt the movie key.
Then they pick the movie key out of memory and use it to decrypt the movie.

Each player has a key... which all lead to the master movie key, which gives you the movie.
Player keys can be revoked, but if nobody knows which player key was compromised, the only remaining option is to revoke them all, give up, or continue to sue all your customers.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

DRM is just another way to punish the honest customer for the deeds of the pirate.

Rather like gun cotnrol.

[Randallw]

I don't think they have made rolls of gun cotton for decades http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif