The Quick and The Dead [ Calmon WINS!! ]

[Kydorias]

Your indecivenesness is our boon. Let Ermor rule the lands and seas. I claim dominion over the mountaintops and skies.

--Gabrielle, High Avatar of Caelum

[KissBlade]

If you think Ermor can step one foot into Patala land, you are sorely mistaken. Rest easy for now that you live far away foul Caelum ... any pity we had for you when Ulm and Arco seeked you end have vanished. Your foul alliance will be your end.

[KissBlade]

PS. would really like to play another game of this! I think Ermor's victory grab might be successful after all. I am just way too far away to effect him. =)

[Kydorias]

KissBlade said:
If you think Ermor can step one foot into Patala land, you are sorely mistaken. Rest easy for now that you live far away foul Caelum ... any pity we had for you when Ulm and Arco seeked you end have vanished. Your foul alliance will be your end.

I neither need nor seek your pity. It would behoove you to save such feelings for yourself.

It is a simple fact that Arco, Ulm, and Utgard chose to burn when they formed their alliance against me. Arco now burns, Ulm is not far behind, and Utgard has conveniently established lands bordering mine.

--Gabrielle, High Avatar of Caelum

[Rathar]

Bug or feature?

Utterdark makes Agarthans suffer the effects of darkness in battle although while the relevant stats such as precision and attack go down they don't state the cause.

This became instantly apparent in a battle with abysia. Their stats were down and it stated darkness as the reason while mine went down the same amount but with no reason stated.

Seemingly small but definitely going to kill me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Rathar

[msew]

utterdark destroying all income is the real killer there.

No income means all the troops go bye bye. except for ermor's :-(


Yeah we are deadmeat.

[KissBlade]

Alchemize the gems you're not using into astrals and send it to me. I'll drop all his globals.

[msew]

anyone know where the ermor pretender is? hiding under water somewhere?

[Ironhawk]

I agree that the game is likely over. We should not have allowed Ermor to grow as strong as he was. Or listened to the nonsense from Caelum and Ermor about how he was a paper tiger. My congrats to Ermor for a skillfully played game tho.

That said: I have never experienced Utterdark before and I have to say that I think it is overpowered. Vastly so! Not only does it effect income, which is understandable. But it also effects Precision. And Attack. And Defense!!!! Its insane. So, not only is your economy destroyed - which would be bad enough - but your ability to mount any defense is also destroyed. I can seriously not think of a "correct" cost for this spell given that it basically just wins the game for you at a stroke (unless it is dispeled). There is no other level 9 spell which even comes close to this level of power.

[KissBlade]

Wasn't the original cost of it 150? I find 100 a bit low but really it's also a level 9 alteration ...

[Ironhawk]

Not sure of the original cost. But I was serious about not being able to thing of a correct cost for the spell. Effectively, casting this spell is like saying "how many gems do you want to use to win the game?". How can you put a pricetag on that?

And yes, I know it can be dispelled. But that is besides the point. The fact is that you have a spell which not only cripples the economy but additionally the complete fighting power of any nation of any size.

[KissBlade]

Hehe Ironhawk, you sound like a tired old vet getting confused by all these spells people are chucking at ya. First Wailing Wind then this. ^_^

[solo]

I think I agree with Ironhawk on this one. Utterdark is cheap, considering how powerful it can be. Many other pricey spells hardly come close in providing such useful benefits to the caster. I have used it once to snatch a victory from an opponent who had previously dominated an MP game I was playing in.

[msew]

if only we had a time machine to go back and ban ermor! This game is otherwise pretty crazy and close. Ermor is sadly the overpowered outlier hehe


So since unless we have a hail mary ^^, this game is ovah.

[msew]

I really like the idea of ermor as a race. It is great. Has fantastic imagery and backstory and is nice to think about.

But from a game balance standpoint it doesn't fit in with the rest of the game. (even in dom2 this was the case)

-it doesn't need population
-it doesn't need supplies
-it doesn't need gold as badly as every one else
-it has no upkeep costs for the majority if its troops

-when another nation attacks ermor, they have to bring extra supply++ items. They gain provinces which have really no value (as ermor has sucked them dry)

-it can go in water (which most nations can't) So they can basically claim all of the water uncontested. (if you want to fight ermor in water then you need a big investment in water breathing items to get your main troops into the drink)

-they can put a huge number of troops on the board. And the way the game works, means that the more "armies" you have the better you can play the "ping pong province game".
Also you can attack lots of people at once stealing their provinces, taxes to 200 and start raping their lands.
And there are no real game choices once you can field N armies. Just send one everywhere!

Basically, they are playing by a different set of rules. I have not seen a non ermor nation go on the pillaging attack. Because you want those provinces long term to give your nation value.


I think we had the same issues with the water races of dom2 as they are sort of off in their own world for most of the game protected and safe. And to finally beat them you have to have a special strategy/items to kill them. Both of which differs greatly from battling on ground.


:-(

[KissBlade]

We could always just start another game of this if you guys want. Personally I didn't find anything wrong with Ermor. I think if I was his neighbor earlier, I could've gave him some real troubles. It's just tough to fight him underwater for me . =)

Besides, Calmon played a good game. No need to take away from his victory because he picked an optimal setup for this setting.

[msew]

Oh not taking away anything. I don't mean that at all. We all entered into the game knowing what ermor is. :-)

[Ironhawk]

KissBlade said:
Hehe Ironhawk, you sound like a tired old vet getting confused by all these spells people are chucking at ya. First Wailing Wind then this. ^_^



Hahahah! - Ironhawk the Great Sage

"IM OLD!!! MY BONES ACHE!!"

Heheheheh. But more seriously, that was the intent of this game, right? In all the games I've played, I die or am declared winner before any of the really high spells see common use. But in this one I got battered by them left and right http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Compared to Utterdark tho, Wailing Winds is a joke. Maybe a little underpriced but in a wayyyy different league than it.

As for the next game: there will be one and you are of course all invited. But this one isnt over till its over. Lets see if Ermor really has to strength to tear the VP from my cold dead fingers.

[mivayan]

Ironhawk said:
That said: I have never experienced Utterdark before and I have to say that I think it is overpowered. Vastly so! Not only does it effect income, which is understandable. But it also effects Precision. And Attack. And Defense!!!! Its insane. So, not only is your economy destroyed - which would be bad enough - but your ability to mount any defense is also destroyed. I can seriously not think of a "correct" cost for this spell given that it basically just wins the game for you at a stroke (unless it is dispeled). There is no other level 9 spell which even comes close to this level of power.


A D4 mage with every army casting the 4 gem darkness spell would do that too... and that cant be disppelled. That'd be more trouble than normally now of course since ermor is fighting in so many places.

[solo]

Darkness is good, but only for Ermor's land battles, while Utterdark works everywhere and also cuts income almost to zero. In addition, it spawns a number of Indy undead attacks in enemy provinces every turn, too! What more could Ermor ask for from a global enchantment? What other global works as well for other kinds of nations not having death magic?

[Ironhawk]

Yeah the combat Darkness isnt so bad. As solo says it effects only the battle and not the income. Additionally, since its a battlefield-only thing, you can choose to engage or not engage an army that you know is using it - unlike Utterdark.

Only a little while till the turn - I'm anxious to see how I fared http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Things are always so intense when your capital is on the line.

[KissBlade]

Hmm... very bad news, I'm afraid Ermor put a lot more death gems into that Utterdark than I had thought.

[mivayan]

Pangea decided a while ago that if the superpowers sneeze, we die, so we'll just annihilate our age old enemies (since last week) the Utgard. We sieged their capitol, but through some minor setbacks we were this turn defending our capitol from their attack. But we won, no siege here.

Something odd and fun: A Boar, formely jotun woodsman, with age: 93 (21) has pretty bad age penalties. (Jotun woodsmen have base attack skill 12 and old age at 200).

Base attack skill: 8
experience: +3
old age: -6 (75% of base.... or 50% of the woodsman's base?)
blessed: +2
Darkness: -4
Current attack skill 3

[KissBlade]

Ah well, if pan and utgard are going to just fight each other and Van is pretty crippled, I guess I'll just sit back and wait for Ermor to take the last VP then XD rather then spend an hour trying to

[solo]

Miv returned too soon and it appears my romp is over and it's your turn again!

Meanwhile, Ermor just might win the game!

[Ironhawk]

If utterdark has not been removed then my capital is surely lost (assuming the walls fell this turn). We will know next turn. Likely tho all my armies are dead since i attacked under the assumption utterdark would be lifted http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[KissBlade]

Sorry, I couldn't drop it. I threw an 85 point dispel at it and it still stood strong. I can hurl another 120 dispel at it but I also attacked under the assumption that utterdark would be lifted >_>.

[msew]

ermor has a nice 720 man ermor between ctis and arco capital! oh yeah!

haha

He also disease attacked me (good move there).

With utterdark up, it hurts us.

[GameExtremist]

Arco doesn't have a capital (or a pretender)....


All hail our new masters the winged ones of Caelum and the one true god Gabrielle!

[Ironhawk]

Yeah I got diseased too. Where are all these gems coming from? Even with a big gem income and the Well its still incredible to throw up three big globals in two turns and then follow them up with continued bombardment.

Surprisingly, my walls held and my attack was uncontested so my nation is still ok. Ermor must have taken more losses than he expected to be having delays like this.

[Rathar]

I just played a few undoubtedly incompetent games of la Ermor while thinking of the advantages we all chose to give ourselves for this scenario.

I noticed that Ermor starts with 15 death gems a turn which is seemingly huge until you realize that they must use those gems to summon all their leaders and they arent cheap. This becomes vastly more complicated for ermor in terms of resource allocation imho when one realizes that Ermor' small researcher uses up most of a turns income of death gems.

Anyways.. A long winded way of saying that I think our initial 10 sage starting condition made it so that Ermor in particular was able to take advantage of it by ending up with a giant pile of gems which it would have otherwise been forced to put into researchers and thus is annihilating us all with 4/5 globals..

On the other hand I would play this exact game again and wouldn't limit Ermor in anyway whatsoever. The mere fact that Ermor was in the game made me as Agartha commence to build indy priests and get ready for the possibility of oceans of undead even though I wasn't next to Ermor or even close.

I also don't think Utterdark to be overpowered as I feel that a base cost of 100 gems and research lvl 9 to be sufficient for any spell which should rightfully dominate MP games, especially if backed up with huge piles of anti-dispell cushioning I.E. Our situation atm, boy are we all doomed.. At any rate with Ermor having 4/5 globals up I think it unfair to place the majority of the blame upon Utterdark.

That this game got this deep, this fun, this quickly (turn 32..) is awesome to me. 6 month+ long games are fun but well, more is better.

Rathar

[Ironhawk]

No, I disagree.

Utterdark is a game-winning spell. That is to say that when you cast it, if it is not dispelled, you will win the game. Which is just ridiculous! No spell should have that much power. There are no other level 9 spells which even come close. Off the top of my head only Wishing for "Armageddon" is similar but that hurts you as much as everyone else.

[solo]

I also disagree. Utterdark is too strong.

I just tried connecting and the server appears to be down.

[calmon]

Server hosted after my turn was in but didn't seem to generate a turn in moment.

Well Utterdark is mostly good for undead nations. LA ermor is a nation with big advantages (like free undead hords & utterdark) and with big disadvantages too (rare mages and very good counterable).

So its a little bit short-sighted to say utterdark is too strong. Its only usefull for a very few nations and this nations have big disadvantages.

[Ironhawk]

I crashed the server in protest of Utterdark!!!!! Heheheh, just kidding. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Not sure what's wrong but I wont be able to check on my computer until I get home - about six hours from now.

Utterdark is definitely only usefull for Ermor and perhaps in select cases for nations with Darkvision like Aby or Agartha. But just because its limited to certain nations doesnt mean its not overpowered. I am still waiting for someone to come up with another level 9 spell which even comes close to Utterdark in power...

[calmon]

Personally i find arcance nexus the strongest global. Every turn this spell is in game it gives the caster more gems to recast a stronger version in future.

I always got stomach pain http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif if someone cast this one and it needs an immediate counter action.

LA ermor is very special, try it out in the next game ironhawk http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif. Maybe you'll change your mind after losing some big undead armies to counterforces which you didn't really hurt.

[FAJ]

Ironhawk said:
I am still waiting for someone to come up with another level 9 spell which even comes close to Utterdark in power...


Anyone ever try to Wish for "Win the game"? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Ironhawk]

I dont believe that Arcane Nexus is comparable. While it definitely does produce a lot of gems it effects neither the military or economic capabilities of any other nation.

No, you misunderstand - I dont have a problem with LA Ermor. There are plenty of tactics and counters to fight an undead nation. While the sheer mass of undead is overwhelming sometimes, they dont otherwise concern me.

[Ironhawk]

Ok, the server is back up.

In other news: My pretenders attempt to relieve the seige at my capital has failed (tho he did take about 200 undead with him). Since Utterdark is basically invincible I am now willing to concede the game. If everyone else consents we can just wrap this up and get started on the next one.

[KissBlade]

Well my 120 point dispel proved to no avail (though my preceding Forge knocked out the Soul gate amusing enough) so I am willing to concede as well. Well played Calmon!

Also I should point out, Utterdark is extremely powerful but rightly so IMO. It's a level 9 magic tree with a high death requirement. (IMO it should be priced 150 though not 100) However Ironhawk, I should point out, the real reason we all probably feel steamrolled by the spell is because Utterdark is LA Ermor's late game trump card. (None of us to be fair decided to gun for any late game trump cards in our delay) In a normal game, it will be many turns before Ermor is able to reach Utterdark. And by then the amount of turn difference between his casting of Well and Soul Gate would've built up enough for other nations to already have begun making preparations and been able to suitably counter it.

[Ironhawk]

Indeed, well played Calmon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

But no, I still disagree. Look at it this way - when someone plays Utterdark, your situation is this: Dispel it or Lose the game. There is no third solution. No tactic to combat it. No counter.

This is too much power for any single spell. Thats what it boils down to.

[msew]

What are the other nations' trump card spells? Where is my utterdark? :-)


My hail mary grab for three VP provinces game too late. Utterdark owned all my plans.

I concede. Next Game!

[Rathar]

I agree that that seems to be the conditions Utterdark sets forth. Dispell or lose. But are there no other nations and spell combos which are essentially the same in effect? Such and such nation casts X global and keeps it up, we are dead?

I don't have enough MP experience to know for sure but dominions is so versatile I would be surprised if that was the only insta-win combo.

I'm definitely into conceding and in fact do so.

Hail Ermor etc etc.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Rathar

[KissBlade]

msew said:
What are the other nations' trump card spells? Where is my utterdark? :-)




Hmm ... off the top of my head, I'd say you have the standard age old tartarian/gifts spam. Mass vine ogres <= not sure if this is still valid. Mass blood summons + astral corruption lockdown. Sure they don't "shut down all opposition" compared to utterdark but hey, the way I see is, it was more our fault for letting it happen then not. For example, all of us were perfectly aware that Ermor was casting Well => Soul Gate => utterdark. We just simply chose not to do anything about it but rather attend to our own schemes on furthering our own powerbases.

[calmon]

Thanks guys! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Playing ermor is/was a lot of fun and a lot of micromanagement too.

I needed so much time to relocate commanders to provinces without leadership, give them guards, grouping all the units and changing tactics for upcoming battles. I'm sure i'll never play LA ermor on a map bigger than this one.

The fun part is really outstanding:

- Flood you enemies with bulks of undead armies
- Water provinces are perfect nearly save transit streets
- build up new castles/temples in enemy territory to get new troops
- Cast all the crippling globals
- Disease whole armies with burden of time backup
- without utterdark start using black death/raven fist combo which works quite well in high population provinces
- using your few mages for wailing wind, burden of time and some other suitables

Well, the downside of playing ermor from my sight:

- You're really clumsy, its very difficult to counter some special threats.
- Big armies often dies like flies.
- i don't find the national summon spells beside the starting spells good. They don't help to compensate ermorian weaknesses. I mean i get 14 Wailing Ladies for 66(!) gems at it best. This women can do a lot of damage but they die very fast to a counter army like every other undead trooper. Maybe CB could fix some of the spells here to make it castable.
- Difficult to find sites beside death and in this game astral (sages)
- every single mage cost gems

My funniest battle in the game was against ulm where 6 sages and 3 fortune teller attacked my 1 PD province + 1 skeleton commander without troops. The mages casted twist fate and astral shield and than spamed star fire. 3 from 5 undeads died and a single longdead legionnaire killed one after one of the mages. To be fair utterdark made the precísion down to 3. But its fun to replay this fight!

[Ironhawk]

Indeed, indeed. Good game Calmon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

So, what are you guys feeling for the next game? I would like to play EA or MA. LA was fun but I think EA/MA magic would be more suitable for an accelerated game.

Is there anything else you want to try? I know we had talked about increasing gems somehow?

[Morkilus]

calmon said:
My funniest battle in the game was against ulm where 6 sages and 3 fortune teller attacked my 1 PD province + 1 skeleton commander without troops. The mages casted twist fate and astral shield and than spamed star fire. 3 from 5 undeads died and a single longdead legionnaire killed one after one of the mages. To be fair utterdark made the precísion down to 3. But its fun to replay this fight!



Yeah! What was that all about? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

[calmon]

I would prefer an EA game, i'm still in a MA and LA game in moment.

With the gems i'm neutral. If some players want it, i've no problems with.

Do we use the same map?

[FAJ]

Count me in either way; MA or EA.

[KissBlade]

I'd prefer EA as well. And Yomi if possible! =)

[mivayan]

calmon said:
Personally i find arcance nexus the strongest global. Every turn this spell is in game it gives the caster more gems to recast a stronger version in future.

I always got stomach pain http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif if someone cast this one and it needs an immediate counter action.


How strong can it be in bigger games? Like, pay back it's 150 gem cost every turn?

I'm out of the next one, I need some weeks without any daily turns. Sounds fun to try different ages.

[Kydorias]

Count me in too! That was a fun game. All worthy opponents. Congratz Calmon!

[Potatoman]

How strong can it be in bigger games? Like, pay back it's 150 gem cost every turn?



I had it up for a while in newbie game 2, and it regularly brought back 200+ gems every turn. A very worthwhile spell.

[Rathar]

The only preference I have to to be allowed to join.

Rathar

[Kydorias]

So if we play again with similar settings, are there any changes we should make based on this game?

[msew]

no utterdark :-)

[KissBlade]

Potatoman said:

How strong can it be in bigger games? Like, pay back it's 150 gem cost every turn?



I had it up for a while in newbie game 2, and it regularly brought back 200+ gems every turn. A very worthwhile spell.



Did you notice a 200+ astral gem increase or did it just say it brought 200+? Because if I recall, the message is bugged. You actually receive 1/4th of the gems it states.

[Ironhawk]

Ok, we've had two votes for EA and one for MA (from irc). Everyone else chime in with what age you want most. I'll start the next game thread after I've heard a couple more votes.

[msew]

for EA I would be interested in playing mictlan or abysia again.

[Rathar]

EA and Agartha. Why mess with a losing strat?

Rathar

[Ironhawk]

Ok, looks like we are going to do EA, then.

Don't pick nations, I dont want to have to filter back through this thread trying to pick them all out. Just sign up when I make the game thread. Should be able to do it tomorrow night - I'm gonna hit the sack now

[GameExtremist]

EA? Cool, I'd like to thank Morkilus for being a stalwart ally, even though our glorious plans failed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

And Kydorias for playing very well, With a 3 pronged assault from Arco, Ulm and Utgard, he rose from the ashes of his capital to crush my main army 3 times before taking my capital.

Any tips on how you thought I could have handled your damned "fog warriors" better? or in general.

Damn I was so close to taking your cap!!!

Then maybe Ulm and I could have put the pressure on Ermor and and.....

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif gg all. See you next round http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Kydorias]

Great game GameExtremist! I had to admit that I almost turned Caelum over to AI a couple of times. I really thought I was doomed. In fact I would have been doomed if not for the advanced research which allowed me Thunder Strike.

Anyway, in our biggest battle with my forces against your Bazillion Elephants, what lost you the battle was the routing of your forces. You were in friendly dominion while I was in enemy, therefore your general morale level was higher. What caused you to rout was my killing off your chaff. Even though you had a ton of Elephants, they are still part of your overall army and subject to the morale check.

Therefore, if you had brought less chaff (your Elephants were hard to kill by themselves) and/or more Priests to spam Courage, I think you would have won that fight. And since my Pretender was at 105+ fatigue that whole fight due to casting of Fog Warriors (a 300 fatigue spell and I didn't have enough Air Gems to offset the fatigue during casting) you would have ended up slaying my Pretender if your forces wouldn't have routed.

So bottom line, less chaff and a few more Priests and I'm convinced you would have won that fight.

Anyway, my vote for the next game would be for Middle Era since I've already played several MP games in Early Era. But honestly its no big deal, if most other players want EA that's fine with me as well.

--Kydorias

[Ironhawk]

Ok guys, the new game thread is open. Start picking out nations!

Mana Burn: The second accelerated game (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=504610&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

[GameExtremist]

So in the interest in supporting this thread - http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=495241&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

Who do we put down as the winner?

Ermor for 1

or

Ermor for .5 and Caelum for .5

Seeing as they were allies and stuff.

[calmon]

I think i were able to conquer the 4 VPs in 2-3 more turns. I sieged the vanheim capital and had 1 very big army near the C'tis capital.

We just shorten the game.

Well, and caelum and i never declared an alliance with a joined victory.

[Rathar]

I never really had dealings with either of your countries in the last game but I am unsure whether that makes me biased or overly unbiased or..?

Either way My "Yes it's St. Pats day and I've had a few beers (tm)" opinion is that although Ermor never declared a clear alliance with Caelum and that, IMHO, Ermor would have utterly annihilated alllll comers had our game gone longer, it should be considered a dual victory because the majority of opposing players perceived the two of you to be in cahoots.

My personal take on things? Ermor made an advantageous deal with Caelum which helped Caelum to stay alive and to indeed flourish but gave Ermor the situation it required to win the game.

I personally view them as both winning, mountains and uhh forests(?) for Caelum and the rest for Ermor as Caelum stated. Nod nod...

If one insists upon Qualitative decisions I say 68% Ermor and 32% Caelum but whatever.. The next game is going to be way fun.

Rathar