Avernum, Crystal Souls v1.5 UPDATE

[Sombre]

PREVIEW IMAGE.

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/541065-Preview%20Avernum.png


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Summary: A new Middle Era nation based on the Exile series by Spiderweb Software. The mod contains a large amount of new graphics and the nation is densely packed with new content. Vahnatai and immobile crystal souls rule over an alliance of Nephils (cat people), Slith (lizard people) and Avernites (humans). Includes 6 trog national summon spells.

Strengths:
Varied selection of both infantry and commanders
Nephil stealth armies
Very powerful and varied magic
Semi-Amphibious Slith armies
Great research ability
Summonable trog superheavy infantry

Weaknesses:
Generally expensive
Best mages all have drawbacks
Extremely vulnerable to missile fire
High risk sacreds
Capital centric nation
No cavalry

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UPDATE VERSION 1.5


-- TWEAK - Vahn ranger greatly reduced in cost

-- TWEAK - Vahn mages and shapers slightly increased in price

-- TWEAK - Avernite mage nerfed a bit

-- TWEAK - Costs of various commaners fine tuned

-- TWEAK - Stealth of Nephil normalised at 10

-- FIX - Moved nametypes to overwrite ea ulm ones, since we've run out and Avernum is an MA nation




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Re-Download please.

UPDATED: Version 1.4 is out. It makes a host of balance and costing tweaks, cleans up a lot of code, sorts out the darkvision once and for all, adds a new nephil scout commander and gives onebattlespell of light of the northern star to the crystal souls, as well as improving their research. It's a must have update damn your pig eyes!



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Original post and premise:

First let me start by saying I have obtained permission from spiderweb to use some graphics from their Exile series, provided the mod is only for our private use (the frequenters of this forum). Spiderweb make a number of excellent old-skool RPGs and I strongly suggest you check out their stuff at http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com

This mod adds the Middle Era Avernum nation to Dom3. Avernum is an underground nation of exiles and their new masters the Vahnatai. I have altered things quite a bit from the story of the Exile series in order to fit better with the feel of Dom3.

[Foodstamp]

I think the graphics look fine. I am using the original graphics for my master of magic mod and they seem to fit in alright.

[aku666]

Will there be Erika as a random hero for Avernum? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Sombre]

Hahah, yeah I could do Erika for Avernum. But then I'd do Hawthorne for the Empire of course. Is it possible to do those one-off heroes in modding right now?

[Stryke11]

Erika would pwn Hawthorne. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

LA Agartha is pretty Avernum-ish. Well, not really, but sorta. Lotta differences actually, but the idea of a human nation living underground are similar.

I see intense cave by cave battles, if someone could design the map (I guess is would like like an ant farm. Actually, that's an awesome idea...a VERTICAL map, where the top line of provinces are the surface, and the rest are many levels of interconnected tunnels. Tons of chokepoints. Oh the sheer joy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif )

[DrPraetorious]

Vahanatai would be more interesting, I'd think. They live in caves, and they have earth magic, but otherwise nothing in common with Agartha, really. They tend to be armed with wave blades and shuriken http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Alternatively, as the ages progress they should *acquire* the ability to recruit Vahnatai - who tend towards earth/astral/nature, or earth/astral/holy (two types of shapers). Human mages would do death/fire/water/air (since that's basically what "magic" does in Exile.)

Crystal souls are available as a national summon. They're immobile, but magically powerful incl a holy of 4.

[Sombre]

Well I was going to add Vahnatai to the Avernum nation in MA and as sacred types. I've pretty much decided to make "Avernum, The Awakening" as a MA nation first. I'm using the Exile series as a base but I'm effectively considering a 'whatif' scenario to tie them into the world of dom3. In this scenario a clan of awakened Vahnatai and a particularly powerful crystal soul (pretender) have saved the exiles from the onslaught of the empire and unified humans, nephilim and slith under the rule of the shapers (priests and mages). I'm looking at it this way because exile is a story driven game of fighting and magic without much 'MY GOD IS THE ONE GOD' stuff. By having the Vahnatai effectively take command of the underground world you get a pretty solid dom3 MA nation.

Features:
Human, Slith, Nephilim and (expensive/sacred) Vahnatai troops. Similarly the numerous leaders are pretty varied in race and ailities.

Human Exiles are a guard force (patrol bonus) of medium infantry and archers. Mages and priests are average.
Nephilim (catmen) are all stealthy, plenty of missiles. Limited shaman.
Slith (lizardmen) are naturally heavier infantry and are poor amphibians. Polearms feature heavily. Ok mage/priest.
Vahnatai are excellent at most things but physically pretty frail. I was thinking astral magic more than anything (they are ET-esque) but I'm open to suggestions.

Some weaker crystal souls as expensive recruitable leaders - immobile but excellent holy and magic. This keeps the focus of the nation on defending.

Yes, this is a lot of stuff for one nation, but if I can get MA Avernum done I might well spread some of this stuff out to early and late ages instead, or maybe even make nephilim/slith/vahn nations. For now I just want to concentrate on getting an interesting and hopefully balanced nation with something for people who've played exile.

Sound good? I'm going to make some slith units today I think.

[Sombre]

Progress so far has been pretty quick. Dom3 modding is pretty damn user friendly and the graphics from exile require very little modification to fit the game. I should have a very basic version to upload,.. tomorrow probably.

So far these are playable but still have stuff like proper names missing etc. The graphics and basic stats are all there though.

UNITS
Avernite Guard
Avernite Archer
Nephilim Brave
Nephilim Archer
Nephilim Warrior
Slith Warrior
Slith Warborn - sacred

LEADERS
Scout (standard vanilla one)
Avernite Captain
Slith Lord - sacred
Nephilim Chief
Nephilim Shaman - sacred, Priest1, Nature1, random other pick
Slith Pyromancer - Earth1, Fire2
Slith Hydromancer - Earth1, Water2

PRETENDER
Splintered Crystal Soul - Immobile astral4, dom5, 50 points.

To be added.

UNITS
Vahnatai Warrior
Vahnatai Soulguard

LEADERS
Vahnatai shapers etc that I haven't decided on yet. No nonmagic leaders for Vahnatai.

HEROES
I might not add the actual heroes from exile series, I'm not sure. I sort of prefer to have my own versions - what do you guys think?


Is it just me or are the slots for modding nametypes extremely limited? I mean every unique hero you need takes up a whole slot with their name. I guess you can go overwriting the slots of nations that aren't in the era your mod is for,... but what the hell?

[Aeshi]

Remember Slith have a little fire resistance. (5%-25%?)

[Sombre]

I've given slith poison and fire resistance. They are the basically the best troops Avernum has. The warborn also have some regenerative ability.

Can people here come up with some more random Slith and Nephilim names for me to use?

So far my name pool looks like this,..

------- Slithzerikai names

#selectnametype 145
#clear
#addname "Slaan"
#addname "Sleethi"
#addname "Ssersses"
#addname "Slither"
#addname "Slassga"
#addname "Slisskril"
#end

------ Nephilim names

#selectnametype 146
#clear
#addname "Frrrg"
#addname "MrrPrr"
#end

------ Vahnatai names

#selectnametype 147
#clear
#addname "Bon-Ihrno"
#addname "Tesa-Ihrno"
#addname "Volas-Ihrno"
#addname "Merak-Ihrno"
#addname "Tekora-Tel"
#addname "Ramda-Tel"
#addname "Tesa-Tel"
#addname "Yosa-Tel"
#addname "Braha-Tel"
#addname "Omni-Tel"
#addname "Pak-Tel"
#addname "Cesa-Ka"
#addname "Mara-Ka"
#addname "Brasa-Ka"
#addname "Morta-Ka"
#addname "Torra-Ka"
#addname "Patma-Ka"
#addname "Remako-Ka"
#addname "Tero-Ka"
#addname "Meni-Ka"
#addname "Jorip-Ka"
#end

[Aeshi]

Bon-Ihrno is an important character (hero?) from the game I think

Nephilim Names:
Mrrrrrrr
Frrrmrrr

[aku666]

I don't think that merging Avernum and Vahnatai as one race is a good idea. Vahnatai are aliens to men (even enemies in A3). Avernum should be like in A4 (if you played it) - men, cats and lizards. Without aliens http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Maybe add Vahnatai as a third nation? That would be cool.

[Sombre]

I haven't played much of the Avernum series although I played all through Exile 1-3 back in the day. Although it was Vahnatai in Exile 3 causing most of the trouble in Exile 2 (mid era effectively) they were allies of the Exiles.

For now I've pretty much come up with a 'whatif' alternate scenario for avernum/exile (exile II era) which allows them to semi-fit into the dom3 world. In the future I may well create a seperate Vahnatai faction as well as 'feral' Nephilim and Slith nations. As it stands this nation has a bit of all 4 races but it is clearly ruled by the Vahnatai and at least in v0.3 the avernites actually only have 2 units and 1 leader (that I /will/ be changing in the next release version).

I could make a totally faithful Exile mod but it would take a lot longer and I'm not sure how well it would fit into dom3 anyway. For the time being enjoy the nostalgic graphics and give me a little feedback (be as critical as you like, but try to be constructive).

Cheers ;]

[Aeshi]

Note to other mac users:this mod is NOT mac compatible.Enabling this mod anc clicking "create new game" results in a crash http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Sombre]

Are you sure that's a mac compatability issue?

I admit I don't know anything about macs but I can't see why there would be any problem with this running on any copy of dom3. Does anyone else have it working? It's possible there's just something up with the copy I uploaded.

For now all I can say is it works for me,.. I'm running dom3 version 3.00.

[Aeshi]

I'm running version 3.06 and I can't downgrade my version to verison 3.00 (maybe you should get the patch?)

[Sombre]

Well I don't see how the version I'm running would alter anything either. All that has changed regarding mods is the adding of more available commands, at least as far as I am aware....

Unless of course there's some new weapons, units, names, nations etc added in the patch which conflict with those in this mod. I doubt that because I didn't use the numerical values immediately following the vanilla ones.

Well I'll wait for some more feedback on whether it's working or not then I'll see what I can do. Obviously half the point of making this was that other people would enjoy it.

[Aeshi]

Version 3.04 adds a new EA nation (Lanka) maybe that has something to do with it?

[aku666]

Well, I'm a fan of the series, played all four of them so I'll definitely try your mod in my next game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Sombre]

I'd love to hear that someone actually has this working.

In the meantime here's a pic of the recruit units screen. As you can see it's something of a multicoloured nation. Very disney.

Having playtested them a little bit my own conclusion is that missile weapons are their absolute worst enemy. A lot of their units wear no armour at all and if there's anything heavier than a light drizzle falling from the sky those expensive Vahnatai (the warriors particularly) just fall to pieces. I think I need to lower a lot of the gold costs too, considering how fragile the units are.

[Aeshi]

Nice.Hope you can get it to work with version 3.06!

[Sombre]

You probably shouldn't go leaping to conclusions. I mean you've effectively suggested to people that this mod doesn't work with 3.06, doesn't work with macs and probably doesn't work with 3.04 either,... when in fact it might just be that it's not able to work on your computer for whatever reason. As I said, I don't think it likely that the 3.06 patch would make a difference. Out of interest did you run the mod without any others enabled?

Until there's confirmation that it works/doesn't work from more people I'm unable/unwilling to try anything to 'fix' it. Instead I'll add national heroes and work a bit on balance.

Dark/Death Vahnatai national hero,....

[Aeshi]

No other mods enabled.Downgraded to 3.01 but that didn't work so I re-upgraded to 3.06

[Sombre]

Weird. Thanks for trying out the downgrade. This would seem to suggest the problem isn't anything to do with conflicts with Lanka or whatever else was added in the patches. I'll upload a slightly newer version and you can see if that works for you. It's possible that the first download or upload process was corrupted, or that I didn't pack it right or something.

If that doesn't help then you might be right about the mac issue. It's frustrating for both of us believe me and I do appreicate you giving it a go.

Ok, a random screeny of a battle attached to this post. I'll upload version 0.4 back at the start of the thread.

[Aeshi]

New one doesn't work with 3.06 or 3.01 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Sombre]

Sorry man, I honestly have no idea why it isn't working for you,... Other than some possible mac compatability issue,... and that I kinda doubt.

In the near future I'll be updating my copy to 3.06 so maybe I'll be able to work out what's wrong, but I strongly suspect that my 0.3/0.4 will work with dom3.06 on my computer anyway.

Can anyone shed any light on this?

[Shovah32]

I couldnt get it to work on my PC with 3.06 but i dunno...

[Sombre]

Hmm. Ok I'll see what I can do. I'm downloading dom3.06 now,...

Possibly something to do with #nratt or the age commands actually working from 3.01 onwards maybe,.. Steelfang's attempt with 3.01 would suggest there's a problem from that update onwards. Crashing when you press create game is something I know happens if there's a #end missing, maybe it also happens if you stick in an invalid value or have one of the newer mod commands missing.

[Sombre]

Ok, installed 3.06, installed 0.4 - create game, got an error message relating to #nratt. Looks like I was right with the guess in the last post. I just accidentally deleted a value at some point and since it was missing that caused the game to crash.

So if you were getting an error message about #nratt,... well it'll work now. If not,.. I still suggest you try it again because 4.01 works for me on the PC dom3.06. It's attached to the first post. Oh and let me know if that works or not. I'm sure there are some more things I can try.

[Aeshi]

It works! *happy dance*

[Shovah32]

Very nice mod. However i think that the two types of slith and the nephilim warrior cost a bit too much gold.

I think the mages are pretty nice but giving a random to the vahnatai mage could use a 100%(maybe 75%?) F/A random to make them viable battle mages without boosts being needed (fire random=falling fires, air random=thunder strike)

[Sombre]

Yeah the gold costs on some of the units are a bit steep and I've already reduced them from what I originally had them at. I didn't want people building entire armies of slith because in the exile games they aren't that common as a race. Plus they do have some fairly impressive stats for basic troops. Exile armies (apart from the avernites) tend to have a lot of high skill (att and def) but low protection troops.

I can drop the prices of those three somewhat, but Exile is going to remain a gold powered nation,... actually a gold and astral powered nation since the Crystal Souls can end up giving you quite a lot of pearls. I'm actually tempted to make them produce 2 APs per turn, since they cost 400 and can only move via teleport. That encourages you to build a 'chamber' of them in your home province doing research and cranking out the gems.

As for the mages - I'm going to give them basic f/a/s 1 and then 2 f/a randoms at 100%. That way you still get solid 2/2s but you also get some 3/1s who have specialised in fire or air and can get the key level 3 spells. I initially figured boosting magic might be viable for some mages (like shapers and hero archmages) because of the gem spawning souls, but maybe 1 AP per turn is too little to encourage empowerment and/or skill item forging.

Any other thoughts?

Edit: I've reduced some gold costs across the board. Slith and nephilim are now more useful as you can afford to take some casualties before getting in close. The changes to the vahnatai mages have made them more interesting and I like to grab as many as I can now to back up the troops with heavy artillery - mist can be useful if you decide to go with the elite melee troops, as can body ethereal and the buffs offered by the shaper. Crystal Souls with teleport are surprisingly handy at securing provinces under threat, though I prefer to keep them at home researching and cranking out pearls. The Slith troops go well with the pyromancers and vahnatai mages because stray sulphur or fire damage is reduced.

I'm still working on 0.5 (all 5 unique national heroes, hopefully ages fixed, maybe new flag etc) - but attached is the 0.42 .dm file with reduced gold costs. The fixed prices will work with saved games.

[Shovah32]

I dont think giving them 2 pearls per turns a good idea, they are already fairly strong as-is. My basic plan was taking an imprisoned S9 Dom10 crystal soul with good scales. I prophetised my starting commander and recruited as many soulguard first turn as possible. Then i continue to ferry soulguard up to the frontline while recruiting many crystal souls who research evo6, thaum5 and then construction 8(then whatever i feel is needed). The soulguards(along with some shapers and mages i recruit if i run into tough opposition from another nation) are all i need to expand as they are very survivable(good defence, 100% regen and twist fate. With the bless they have 18mr which is great vrs illithids http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif) and tend to kill 1 unit each per turn (the sword brings them up to 16 attack with 20ap damage) so not much can stand against them. By the time i reach const7 i will usually have 15-20 crystal souls(that is if i have needed to recruit quite a few shapers and mages at my capitol) and have a huge astral gem stockpile at which point i will mass produce and equip golems.

Even before golems i have a powerful battle-tactic. I attack the enemy army with a scout to see if there are any astral mages, if there arent then thats fine and if there are i send squads of rangers to try and remove them. Once the enemy army has no astral mages my crystal souls are free to mind hunt all the commanders in it, generally making it rout as soon as its attacked.

[Sombre]

So do you think the Soulguard are somewhat overpowered? I mean they're restricted to the home province,.... playtesting them I had a lot of problems against missile fire - the regen wasn't really cutting it against a rain of arrows, javs etc... but since that point I've changed them around a bit and now maybe they're a bit too good (depending on the bless).

I came to the same conclusion about crystal souls - they stay at one AP per turn, though the pretender gets 2 per turn.

One thing I really didn't want to do with this mod is make an overpowered unit or an overpowered nation, because that really punishes people who enjoy variety. If you like to use pretty much exclusively Vahnatai by choice, that's fine, but if it's because certain units are so much better than the others that there's no point in using them,.. well obviously some tweaks are needed. Anyway, glad you enjoyed giving the mod a whirl ;]

Did any of the national heroes turn up? It seems like I hardly ever get them when I playtest.

[Shovah32]

I was using misfortune2 so no heroes turned up. I dont think the soulguard are overpowered, i think they are just about right. I had them shielded from missile fire by a small screen of shielded troops and their twist fate also helped. Once they reached combat their high defence, regen, twist fate and offensive power kept them going. I think the crystal soul pretender might be a little over-powered as its basically a super oracle(imprisoned i took him with S9 Dom10 order3 prod3 growth3 misfortune2 magic1) if you going to take advantage of any of his strengths(high dom and astral magic)

[Sombre]

Hmm. Good point. I'm bumping the pretender point cost up a bit. The high astral is simply to force people to go astral with the nation, after all it's the main magic of the vahnatai.

0.5 is going to be delayed a little while,.. but I'm pretty confident I'll get this nation to a final version this month.

Next national hero is a slith berserker. He's going to be interesting but not that powerful. I'm debating whether to add a crappy avernite mage (1 random element, 1 true random at 50%) and priest (basic h1).

[Aeshi]

I personally find 20 nephil braves (or even better,nephil warriors) and 20 nephil archers lead by a nephil chief to be a very good stealth team.Very handy for sneak attacks

[Sombre]

With the cost reduced to 10 the braves make good screen or flank troops as well - they can really chew up light infantry and archers in close. Oh and all nephilim are useful for patrols. In 0.5 they'll have forest survival too.

[Sombre]

New version attached to first post. Go read for details of update.

This thing's getting damn near to being finished. I really just need to sort out that crappy flag and start messing around with spell modding for some vahn magic.

[Sombre]

Ok the first post has been changed a bit to better convey what the mod is about. I have obtained email permission re: the graphics from Spiderweb (with minor conditions).

The next version of this mod will hopefully be compatible with a couple of other mid era mod nations and possibly with the worthy heroes mod. It will include national summons introducing the fearsome trog race - compact little giant killers who were sealed away in times past and can be 'gated in' to assisst Avernum against surface enemies.

[Gandalf Parker]

Thank you for getting permission on the use of the graphics.
I would hate to have pulled the mod since it seems popular.

[Sombre]

It's cool. I'm happier with Spiderweb being informed about it too.

[Sombre]

Update to version 0.8 imminent. The update makes the usual stat changes, seeks better balance and most importantly adds 6 national summons.

As with Vaettihiem if you want anything new added or changed now would be the time to say something. I've played this mod a lot recently and it's still the best thing I've done in my opinion. It really does add a whole lot of stuff (much like Amos' mods) and it's feeling balanced (although it's a strong nation for sure).

[Sombre]

New version is up. Comments not only appreciated, but expected ;]

Especially you Bandarlover -shakes fist-

[BandarLover]

O.k. O.K. Sombre. I'll certainly get to it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I've got a lot on my plate lately (real life wise) so I've been lucky just to play my turns on the MP games I got going on.

But as soon as I get the opportunity I'll play this and give you my thoughts. Though I'm not exactly sure why my thoughts are so important since I know next to nothing balance-wise.

[aku666]

Why nearly all of normal units are old? I don't recall Avernum being a nation of old people and what ruler would make a regiment out of 68 year old archers? Stevie Wonder would shoot better. If that was meant to be a way to balance things then it's a wrong way IMHO.

BTW this mod conflicts with Sylvania mod.

[Sombre]

First - It doesn't really conflict with Sylvania because Sylvania is a LA nation and this is a MA nation. There's no reason to have them both on at the same time.

Second - Age should work fine as long as you have 3.06 installed. Since that's the latest version, that's the standard version my mods work with. I don't believe anyone with 3.06 installed would have this problem.

[Wauthan]

I finally got around to test this wonderful mod. I've no experience of Avernum though, so I take my comments with a pinch of salt.

1. The Vahnatai warrior has a suspiciously shorter life expectancy compared to the other Vahnatai units. Is this intended?

2. All your casters got higher attack, strength and defense then mages in other nations. I assume this is because of the setting?

3. The Avernite Mage is a bit of an oddity compared to the other casters. I found little use for her. The Nephil Shaman is a much better researcher (holy ability makes him much cheaper in upkeep). And all the other mages are more competent in battle. I'm not sure how to make this unit more attractive without breaking the theme. But you could perhaps give her access to all paths of magic, as per the units description, or make her the "General" unit with a higher command ability (normal or magic units).

4. Why do the Slith units and the Vahnatai Soulguard have mapmove 1? I assume this is because the Slith are sluggish lizards (though that isn't explained) but why is the unarmored Soulguard such a slowpoke? I reckon it's because their reluctance to leave the ancestors unguarded or because they are not trained to make long marches.

5. Avernum is a nation that lives under the ground, but can't see in the dark. In my game I started out next to Agartha and promtly lost my capital due to my own forces fighting blind in their own home. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif (I still beat the snot out of Agartha though, but that's not the point)

6. The Avernite Guard could use a bit little more oomph to set him apart from independent infantery. He looks like he's using a wall shield instead of a kite shield, and his helmet looks more like a half helmet instead of an iron cap. Then again if these guys become better protected you need to cut down on the PD. Makes sense to me though. These guys wouldn't have the numbers to field large defensive armies outside their home province.

7. Your choice of sacred units is nothing short of pure evil. These guys practically shout "Water 9 blessing, dammit!" but the Soulguard works so darn well with Gift of Health that it brings tears to my eyes. So of course you made the nature blessing completely redundant. Kudos to you for a great balancing move.

That's all for now. Expect more feedback as I make my way through early game. The units look so good that congratulations for an excellent crossgame transfer is in order.

[Sombre]

Ah, I greatly appreciate the comments! :]

1. The Vahnatai warriors have standard Vahn hp of 8. The problem is that next to the 12hp regenerating soulguard (a result of their connection to the crystals) they seem very fragile. They are certainly a weaker unit and a hard pick with SG available,.. however they are much cheaper and can do just as much damage in the right circumstances. They also have mapmove 2 and aren't cap only. I'll do more tests, maybe make them a little cheaper (or SG more expensive).

2. Partly because of the setting, partly because I didn't do my research when I first put the values in. It doesn't make a lot of ingame difference, but I might change it. Well spotted.

3. I might well drop the cost. I like the random picks as they are (no blood here, astral is Vahn territory). I could also give them ldr40. It's also possible the nephil shaman is a bit too good.

4. You got it right. Soulguard don't like to leave the soul chamber far behind and Slith just aren't much for marching around. Both units are nasty enough that it's worth the wait though.

5. Yes, I just realised this. Problem is you can't mod darkvision. Until it's possible, I should probably give them a different home fort.

6. Good suggestions. I'll go with them. Avernum's PD is already pretty crappy though, all things considered.

7. I went with an astral/air bless on them once, which made them much less fragile, but the MR was sort of wasted and I had to send my crystal pretender to sleep, which wasn't the smartest move. Avernum is a nation that isn't a /clear/ bless candidate, but it is very tempting, especially with the crystal pretender (which might still be too good for the cost).

I'd like to hear your opinion on the trog summons. In my tests they ended up mangling the hell out of everything, but now I might have somewhat nerfed them.

[Wauthan]

1. Errh... Regarding the Vahnatai Warriors my intended meaning was about them growing old at an earlier age (50 years) compared to other Vahnatai (350 years), not their survivability on the battlefield. Poor choice of words on my part. (I actually found that they last a lot longer then the soulguard thanks to their missiles killing of a few units before meele).

3. Don't drop the cost. 90 gold is actually too cheap. After playing a bit longer my suggestion is to increase to cost to 125 gold and increase the chance of random magic to 70% and 50%. Also I recommend that you let the first random pick include death and nature as well as the elementals. This means that with enough "gambling" I can score 3 nature or 3 death magic on one of them. That's enough create boosting items and then go for the global enchantments. This change will make Avernum one of the most flexible nations around.

6. The PD is actually pretty good. Beats the freaking snot out of both Machaka and Mictlan. The Nephil Braves die by default though. Might want to change the "Elite PD" to either Nephil Archers or Nephil Warriors.

7. Yeah it's very tempting to choose the unique pretender. The 4 astral picks feel a bit restricted though. Why not 1 Water, 1 Earth and 1 Astral with 80 point buy for other paths? Great triple whammo bless pretender and it follows the Shapers picks.

Haven't tried the unique summons yet since I'm going for Achasic Record first. It's basicly free with enough Crystal Souls around. Why are Crystal Souls subject to old age at 1200 years by the way? They're basicly rocks and oughto "live" forever.

[BandarLover]

Great mod Sombre, and I loves the Trog summons. I like that they look diffrent from Dom 3 normal trogs as well. Five out of five stars for graphics!

I think Wauthan gives you much better feedback than I ever could. I do agree with him on the Avernite mage. Really don't use them that much personally.

I'm still playing around with them but this is one of my favorite mods out there.

Keep up the good work.

[Shovah32]

Maybe the crystal souls old age could be them starting to go a bit crazy after being rocks for so long? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Wauthan]

Edit: Endgame progress report. The AI didn't last long with only this mod running.

1. I've recieved my first and only hero and it turned out to be a 3 nature mage. That's not a good thing balancewise. This means that I can eventually cast most nature spells even without empowering. As I said earlier the Soulguard have a tremendous synergy with Gift of Health since they got 100% regeneration. Not a gamebreaker of course but I would recommend that this hero gets 1 nature, 1 death, 1 air and 1 fire instead.

2. The Nephil Shamans are simply to good right now. Research is through the roof even without the easily available Owl Quills. Might perhaps be solved with a 20% random magic and an increase cost to 110 gold?

3. The trogs are barely balanced for their cost. Trouble is that they are fairly "meh!". Astral gems are more valuable then other gems and I find little reason to invest them in these guys. They need somekind of special ability to make them worth the cost. The Troglodyte Defenders are supposed to have "equipment second to none" yet they only have a basic battleaxe and platemail. I rather have fewer but tougher units with each summoning.

4. The Trog leaders are simply a waste of gems. Blood mages are not all that good this late in the game. They are too few and too weak to start any meaningful blood economy. My suggestion is that you rethink the concept of these guys. Avernums strength is it's tremendous versatility, and the nation doesn't really have any apparent weakness. The Trogs should thus be focused on a very specific use but I've no idea what that would be.

5. The Slith Warrior and Slith Warborn are a bit too expensive for their abilities. I think they could use a +1 on both attack and defence. Also the Warborn oughto be recruitable from all forts. They're not so good that this disrupts the game, and their slow mapmove makes it difficult to reinforce the fallen.

6. For the same reason the Slith Lord sees very little use. Perhaps you could drop the priest magic on this unit, decrease to cost to 65 gold and allow it to be recruited from all forts?

7. The Vahnatai Ranger is a very competent assassin for it's cost and upkeep. The sacred ability is a bit odd since it can't be blessed during assassinations. My humble suggestion is that this unit can only be recruited from the home province.

8. The Crystal Soul could use a few elemental immunities considering the cost. Are you sure that these chaps (shards?) wouldn't be more appropriate as high level summoned units? Their description seems to indicate that they are created rather then recruited.

That's all the critisism I can think of. Hope some of it have been atleast a little constructive. Many thanks for sharing this mod Sombre.

[Sombre]

Ok I'll respond to the ealier post first.

1a. That's a bug. Forgot to give them maxage. Fixed.

3a. Letting Avernum go for 3 death 3 nature from recruits doesn't sound good to me. You mention later on that Greenpaws having 3 nature is unbalancing. They are a versatile nation but avernite mages don't need to be that good. Maybe 90 gold is a bit too cheap, looking at other minor mages of the era. Ok, cost increased to 115, percentage to 60 40. Picks remain the same. I still think they're a pretty usable unit if you've decided to pour gold into armies or you're saving up for a CS. They can give you access to more nature and death magic, after all. I have to put a cost on that. If they're not useful, then they can't be too expensive - they are supposed to be balanced against other mages /and/ within the nation. With the changes I'll make to the nephil shaman, they should be gold.

6a. Well now it's 7 guard, 7 archers per 10 points. I'm sticking with braves and nephil archers after 20 points - the braves just get wiped out usually, but hey that's what they're all about. Discourages people from pumping high PD (which kills SP games for the AI).

7a. I went with astral in order to restrict the player. You can spend more on other paths, but astral is strongly encouraged, because pretender or not, that's a crystal soul. I'm certainly not going to make bless an easier choice for people - I don't especially like bless strategy (it's pretty boring) and I made it something people /can/ go with, but not something I /want/ them to go with.

Re: Crystal Soul Age - it's purely aesthetic, right? I mean you can't be running these things into old age. They're effectively ageless as long as you don't click on the fatigue button.

As for the next post,...

1. Greenpaws is a thematic thing. I don't think she breaks balance (heroes generally don't) and none of the other heroes have 3 in a normally hard to get path. You were just lucky (you could have gotten slitherhooks).

2. Yes, I checked into the balance of these guys and they're too good. I've hurt their research with a -1 'bonus' in the next version, dropped the percentage to 50 instead of 70 and upped gcost to 110. Pretty solid nerf. They should still be useful though.

3. Trog balance is hard. They kept me alive in a game where I had very little territory and the AI had most of the continent simply because I could spam hordes of them using all the free astral pearls from the CS. In my experience trog warriors make a mess out of just about anything. I really, really don't want overpowered national summons, especially as the AI sucks at using them. As for the defenders - that equipment /is/ second to none if you're a trog. It beats fists and leather, that's for sure.

4. I admit I find the commanders even harder to balance. The trog lord and shaman I wanted to put at the head of any summoned trog forces, but the problem is you can't mod summoning units with leaders. I'm just going to drop their cost, make them very cheap. Trog commanders are effectively just there for people who want to play with more trogs and I'm unwilling to diverge too far from the standards set by the Exile series. Basically the trog spells are supposed to be more like teleporting in a heavy infantry force than nationl summons which net you crazy or special magical units. That's why you get numbers as well as stats. I've dropped gemcosts considerably for leaders and defenders, given defenders a little stat boost and dropped costs somewhat for regular trogs and warriors.

Khazi from 20 to 14
Lord from 8 to 5
Shaman from 10 to 6
Defenders from 25 to 20, now 8 summons not 10.
Warriors 20 to 18
Trogs 7 to 6

That's in the next version. I personally think it might be too good a deal considering how many astral pearls you get, but we'll see.

5. Well, they do get a lot of abilities and the warborn are very tough for recruitables. The nation is also supposed to be rather costly (especially slith, who are somewhat rare in the Exile series). Still, I'll drop costs to 15 and 20. Warborn are staying cap only to reflect rarity, with a tiny stat boost. This should encourage their use, without making the nephil warrior, brave or avernite guard redundant.

6. I'm not happy with him being a priest either, so I'll drop that and change the cost. I'm not making him available everywhere due to slith rarity (theme from Exile). He stays sacred. Minor stat boost to make him more thuggy.

7. Sacred simply because all Vahn are sacred to Avernum. The cost is going up to 140 - I'd forgotten it was still at 100. I don't want this to be an assassin based nation. Unlike the other Vahns they aren't cap only because they wander around the surface looking for trouble. Heh.

8. No way I'm boosting the CS in any way shape or form. They are still incredibly useful at almost any cost due to the gemspawning. They're staying recruitable because A) They are already around (lots of them in the chamber), you just need to get them to join your cause. And B) They are integral to the astral economy unique to Avernum, which starts from the very first few turns.

I appreciate the comments, as always. Hopefully these changes will improve the balance for the next version. I'm still very wary that the nation is overpowered though. Particularly with improved summons and cheaper slith.

[Wauthan]

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/7521/kurgidq1.jpg

[Sombre]

Hahahah, nice! And thanks! I've put a fair bit of work into making it and it's always nice to get positive feedback.

I think responding to people's suggestions about balance changes is a big part of making a good mod too. It's very hard to see problems with your own nation while you're making it. You really need the perspective offered by players.

Other minor changes - Avernite mage gets ldr40. One less astral gem income from startsites. Startfort changed. Oh and no more spy or basic priest recruitables. They can manage without.

[Aeshi]

*cheers*

[Sombre]

Ok, v0.9 with balance changes and a few other bits is attached at the front (or will be, in 5 mins).

[mivayan]

I just downloaded it from the first post in the thread and tried it. Awsome... almost makes me want to play exile or avernum again.

Bug: The first two national summons doesn't work. They summon the wrong unit number. Haven't looked at the others.

#newmonster 2891
#name "Troglodyte"

#newspell
#name "Gate Troglodytes"
(...)
#damage 2810

[Sombre]

Doh, thank's for spotting that. When I changed the numbers to make the game compatible with a couple of other mods I forgot to update the spells.

Ok that'll be fixed in 1.0 as well as any other bugs people post in the next couple of days. For now I suggest you reassign the spell damage values manually if you know how. I noticed the trog graphics have a couple of transparent bits too, which I'll fix.

V1.00 which will be the final pretty much, will be up within a week then.

[Sombre]

Version 1.00 is up.

Numerous minor fixes including sorting out those trog spells and giving worthy heroes esque misc slots to the hero units.

[Azriel]

I can imagine a Geneforge mod, too. They would be extremely summons-heavy.... Three basic leader-types: Agents, Shapers, and Guardians but there would be others, too, like independent serviles, drakes, etc. And then there are the insane ones that have had a bit too much cannister juice. Too much fun!

[Foodstamp]

This mod is a lot of fun. This nation is very powerful but I think it is neat for single player play.

I lucked out and picked up 3 heroes within the first year of the game. My strategy consisted of making tons of gem producers with my great scales and summoning troglodytes like woah.

I made my phophet the slith gladiator guy with the excellent regen, and he pwnd anyone foolish enough to step in my domain (65 hp with 8 candles).

Next time I play, I am going to try a different pretender setup. I am going to go 3 order 3 magic 3 growth, enough death for the mid range undead leaders, and enough nature/water for clams. My astral economy was unreal, and I can only imagine with clams to boot http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif


Balance/ bugs-------------------------------------

Really, talking about mod balance is truly a matter of opinion in dominions, but one thing that did stand out was the power of the Trog khazi with 3 blood / 3 earth. In my game I did not have growth scale, so they picked up afflictions pretty fast from old age, but they seem very underpriced in any case for what they are capable of.

The only bug I found was a typo in the description of the starting commander. Ben needs to be replaced with "been".


---------------------------------------------------

Conclusion

This is really a fun mod. I am going to fiddle around with the unit numbers and the nation number so I can play this mod with my mods in the same game. I am curious to see if the AI has the brain power to pearl horde with this nation or use the summons properly.

There are a lot of different units to choose from, and I admit I was a bit lost when it came to the theme of the nation because I have never played the original game. It seemed like the Nephil could be developed into a nation of their own, as could the sliths, but I imagine this probably conflicts with the original games story.

The graphics fit in PERFECT. You did an excellent job of resizing and making these graphics work.

I love this mod, nice work!

[PvK]

Looks very, very nice!

/threads/images/Graemlins/Bug.gif However in 3.08, it is suffering from the two-headed bug from explicitly setting the unit slots based on the incorrect values in the mod manual, which now correctly end up with you getting two heads if you enter that number.

/threads/images/Graemlins/Bug.gif The half helmet on the Avernite units isn't working.

[Sombre]

Yeah that 3.08 itemslots dealie means I'll have to update pretty much all of my mods.

Thanks for the bug report - keep them coming :]

Foodstamp - if you think that the nation is /over/powered rather than just powerful, then we have a problem and I'll need to go through the balance again. I thought that making the Crystal Souls cost 500 would make pearl hoarding with them at least slightly difficult, but maybe I need to either whack the cost up even more or otherwise hose them off a bit (maybe nix their research value).

The trog khazi is perhaps a bit underpriced. They have a cost left over from when they were somewhat weaker. Khazis in Exile were tough as all getout, so I think what I need to do is pump up their cost, particularly given the astral pearl economy you can get going with this nation. I might give them a random of fire/water as well, just for the fun blood summons - though this would be reflected in the updated cost.

[Foodstamp]

Actually I did not think the nation was overpowered. I just thought that the one trog caster was underpriced. This nation IS very easy to gem horde with. Even with order 3, sloth 2 I was able to turn out Crystals every turn after a certain point, and I was still able to grab casters every turn because I had researched Thaum.

I think the nation is a lot of fun, and balanced enough imo. I found this nation to be fairly weak when expanding early, it had an average/above average mid game, and a very powerful late game.

[Sombre]

Hmm. One way of stopping that might be to increase the resource cost of the Crystal Souls, making it hard to make one every turn, especially if you want to crank out national troops.

When I play with them I spam a lot of troggies too - that's what they're there for. They make really solid heavy infantry, although they tend to get ruined with afflictions after a few battles.

[Sombre]

The next version will be up tonight.

1.1 will fix the bugs you mentioned and sort out all the itemslots making Avernum 3.08 compatible.

[Sombre]

Updated, check the first post for details.

[Shovah32]

Sorry if its been mentioned already but trog defenders dont have shields which they have in their pictures.

ps: try an S9N4 bless and heavy scales. Your vahnatai warriors work great with it(they can survive just long enough for their shurikens to decimate the enemy) and later on when you combine vahnatai warriors with trog defenders(hence the n4 bless to combat afflictions) you have a very strong army with great survivability and offensive power. You also have a very powerful late-game pretender, good scales and an army with great MR.

[Sombre]

Ok I'll reupdate the file giving the trog defenders shields momentarily. Hold to download until then.

It doesn't deserve a new version number just for that though ;]

[Sombre]

Ok in the attached 1.1 file they now have shields. Good catch Shovah.

[Sombre]

A new version may well be released soon.

In the meantime, here's a picture of all the units, standing around looking gormless.

[Sombre]

Lemme test out the image tags.

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/540611-Avernum%20lineup.png

[llamabeast]

Wow! So many units. I increasingly realise this must have taken a lot of work!

[Sombre]

I've reorganised the preview a bit. It's attached and will be an image on the first page.

The next version might just be a CBM rebalance. I'm not sure right now.

[Sombre]

I've updated the first post with version 1.2.

Mostly minor changes, but now the crystal soul recruitable commander doesn't give you any pearls.

[Sombre]

MINOR UPDATE: Version 1.25 fixes an error I'd made with copystats and should give partial darkvision back to the Avernum units, something they lost in 1.2

So redownload people.

[lch]

The avernite archer has only prec 9. Is that intentional? I guess he's supposed to fire a few rounds, but then enter in melee combat? Nephilim have "vulerable" in their descriptions.

[Sombre]

Yeah, he's a human forced underground - his eyesight has suffered.

The Avernite Archer isn't a good unit, that's for sure, but not much I can do about that. Staying faithful to the sprite here.

[Morkilus]

Has anyone been able to thug out Crystal Souls? I'm not sure they're still worth 500 gold after removing the gem generation. Compare, for example, to Astrologers.

[Sombre]

Well they're 400 gold in the newest cbm version, the one we're using in the mod game.

I agree 500 is too much, so in the next version it will be changed.

[Sombre]

Version 1.4 is here.

There are loads of tweaks and changes, a new commander called the nephil scout (he does what he says on the tin) a new graphic to replace the ****ty avernite captain graphic,.. what else,.. oh yeah darkvision works now. And I improved the Crystal Souls so they aren't such a ripoff now.

Attached to the main post. Enjoy! ORFEELMYWRATH.

[Sombre]

Oh and before you install this new version, delete the old one, because I've changed the directory and dm names, so if you don't you'll end up with two of them and that would be confusing.

[Humakty]

I've got NGF : bad nametype while right-clicking on the vahnatai ranger & mage in the recruitment screen.
Weren't slith warborn cap only before ? Or have various abuses broken my mind ?

[Sombre]

Warborn were cap only before, now I've unrestricted them because Avernum was basically too cap centric. Besides if you can get Slith Warriors and Lords anywhere it makes sense you can get warborn anywhere.


As for nametypes - you're right. But it isn't my fault. It says in the new mod manual that nametypes up to 159 are available. This isn't true. 151+ don't work and produce crashes. I will upload a fixed version of avernum using nametypes 149, 150 momentarily. I'll also make a post in the bug thread.

[Morkilus]

I have a soft spot for this mod. Maybe it's the archer kitties!

[WraithLord]

Yes, I'm currently playing SP with this mod. The unit descriptions are superb and really lend to an epic feeling of a nation(s) in exile. I'm not familiar with the books/comics that are the base for this mod and am learning about the nation from the descriptions and unit traits.

Its a really cool and well thought of mod and I like it a lot. Thanks Sombre!

[Endoperez]

It's actually based on games by Spiderweb software.

[WraithLord]

LOL http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Just found that out after googling a little. I am impressed with the exile series and have just complete d/ling the original.

Have any of you guys played one of the exile or avernum games?

[Endoperez]

I did a bit, but I never played enough to learn of the world much more than the backstory.

[Saulot]

I've played and enjoyed several games of the Avernum series.

This mod does a nice job capturing the feel / atmosphere of the games. (Though obviously the underground / desperation part is impossible.)

[WraithLord]

Unless a special scenario map is created on which exile starting province and the surroundings are all cave terrain.

[Sombre]

Well caves still don't produce darkness, so it would actually be kinda meaningless.

The Exile series of games are excellent and have been remade as the Avernum series. I advise anyone interested in the setting to give them a go, because they really are top tier RPGs.

[WraithLord]

It seems ver. 3.15 broke some things in the mod. I noticed the national spells are not available after upgrading. For example, mages that were order to cast "Gate Troglodytes" before the upgrade are reported after to upgrade as casting "gift of flight" and the nation summon spells are not available to cast.

[Zargen]

I'm curious if this has been brought up before, but, apparently there is absolutely no magic in avernum http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif. Because none of the spellcasters or the pretender have any magic set to them. I deleted and redownloaded the mod and it still comes up the same. Thoughts?

[Sombre]

No idea how you've gotten that to happen. They all have magic for me.

What version of dom3 are you using?

[Zargen]

3.15


Also, it somehow fixed itself. Everythings working fine.

[Zargen]

Now that I got a good feel for the mod. Heres some thoughts.


The gate spells for summoning trogs. Wouldn't it be just fabulous if gating in trogs brought 10+ instead of just 10? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif Get 1 extra for every extra level of astral magic. Perhaps to show the ability to keep the temporary portal open a little longer then someone not as skilled?

[HoneyBadger]

While you're busily updating your nation mods, please don't forget about this one, Sombre-it's one of my favorites. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[DaveCG]

AS I said in the other thread (and dammit I'll say it here too) I love this mod, so many great memories of playing exile with my dad, I used to really love the sprites in the game, and this mod is one of thoses "HA! remember this guy dad?" so yeah, basically thanks alot again Sombre, and still managing to get my *** kicked by MA evil rome, dammit! I'll have my day yet...

[Sombre]

Updated to v1.5

-- TWEAK - Vahn ranger greatly reduced in cost

-- TWEAK - Vahn mages and shapers slightly increased in price

-- TWEAK - Avernite mage nerfed a bit

-- TWEAK - Costs of various commaners fine tuned

-- TWEAK - Stealth of Nephil normalised at 10

-- FIX - Moved nametypes to overwrite ea ulm ones, since we've run out and Avernum is an MA nation

[Aezeal]

I played exile in the past (from a multi game CD lying around in the house of an ex GF of mine,( it was already outdated then and this was like 8 years ago), when she did homework I was playing the game in the same room) When we went less to her parents (when she went to higher schooling too) and later when we broke up I lost track of the game (I don't think I came very far.

Anyway enough of the background story:

Would it be a game to start playing again now or would I just get annoyed at the graphics (which usually don't bother me much really) or the gameplay and story (very important these last 2)

[Kristoffer O]

I imagine you would like it. It was a while since I tried it, but I liked it. Graphics are no more outdated then dom3 :)

[Sombre]

I can't speak for the 'avernum' update but Exile III is one of the best rpgs of all time imo.

[Sombre]

it was already outdated then and this was like 8 years ago

Also that's no way to talk about your ex girlfriend.

[Aezeal]

hehe

Well it's just the way it is Sombre.. my feeling clouded my mind then... now I'm seeing it clearly. (And to quote myself "I'm not a nice guy")

Yeah I was looking around for exile and read that avernum 1-3 are remakes of the exile games. I think I'll try those a bit.. unless someone tells me a lot was lost in translation...

[Humakty]

I've tried avernum 5, it is good but really hard : you have almost no explication about the game in the manual, but you have complete solution and cheat codes ! It is a bit linear, you can't really choose were to go, and if you want to get the plot, you'll have to read tons of text.

[Zebion]

Is this still being worked on? I would love to see a working empire with garzhad as the anti-thesis to erika instead of hawthorne though.

This looks to be incredible though

[Sombre]

I currently have no plans to do an 'empire' nation to oppose this one.

I will still update this and any of my mods when the mood takes me, or if something drastically needs to be done.

Give it a go, Zebion, and let me know what you think. I'm pretty good at fixing problems people bring to me, even adding stuff if they have very good ideas.

[Zebion]

These are some general idea's from the newest update of avernum, to both a bit of balance, and staying a bit thematically true to the games. Pick and choose if you like any of course.

- Unit races need to be seperated a bit more by race, it's rather confusing to check the first captain (avernite captain) to find it has more leadership then the nephil chief,. My idea would be to put the nephils as first, humans second, sliths third, and finally vahnatai last.

- Vahnatai rangers having only 2 movement, but should be theroetically the fastest unit in the forces, (In the games they were running as fast as horses to some of the avernites) Even the sacred warriors are slower then the nephil while they have no armor?

-Warborn, wouldn't it be more appropriate to have halbred instead of a battleaxe?

-Hero idea: The adventurers, the one's who seemed to save avernum time and time again, come to assist in combat. I'm not sure if your able to make a group of heros appear. If so, you could create a human mage/priest commander, with melee human warrior (sword shield combination) Slith polearm user, and finally nephil archer. If not able to. Make the adventurers like the knights of Man, random heros that come once in a while, and you can always get another. maybe have some as mages, priests, and all that, have them start with maybe 1 or two experience.

[Sombre]

- I can certainly reorder the units on the build screen. However they are laid out it will be confusing to someone though. It's just a matter of sticking with something and people getting used to it.

- Vahnatai Rangers, as assassins, wouldn't really benefit much from strat move 3. They spend their time moving in enemy territory after all. Also I'm not sure that being able to run as fast as a horse necessarily means you can cover the distance cavalry can. The Soul Guard's strategic move is explained in their description iirc.

- Halberd for Warborn. I guess? Why is it more appropriate? Because slith like polearms? I wasn't really trying to translate that from the game. It can be changed though.

- As for heroes, the nation already has 7 different types of hero who can turn up. They are a varied bunch, but they aren't based on the games.

[Zebion]

- True, sorry.

- I was meaning the other sacred, The vahnatai warrior. The soul guard I very much understand, but yes I get it. The movement three for ranger would seem to be more of them covering distance within the territory to get to those pivotal points in order to be in a territory before/after an enemy conquers it, being in perfect position to assassinate, but yes I understand.

The warriors however, as avernum has no calvary to speak of, it may be interesting to have them able to flank lightly as fast attacking units able to reach the back row,while slower then calvary, but pretty fast.

- It just seemed the extra reach and overall repel damage of the halberd would be more suited to what they want to do, generally I kinda forgot about the slith pole arm bonus at the moment though. Understandable.

- There are? I haven't received one yet, nor know how to see them.. Although if their in your pics you posted up, I cannot see them. For some odd reason I can't see any pics on the dom forums oddly.

Thanks for the suited response, I will be using them more today, to check for any glitched issues, bugs, or just overall problems. I can't really think of any meaningful contributing idea's generally for now, so I'll stick with looking for bugworks. Glad you made this awesome mod though. So thanks overall.

[Sombre]

Hmm. I think you're right about halberds, it would probably suit them better as all purpose heavy infantry. So that'll be in the next update.

I think the vahn warriors are pretty fast already and you've got the nephilim warriors and braves who are capable of flanking. I'll have a look at it though, maybe speed them up. I like them more for their ranged attacks and ability to take down elites than for flanking duty though.

The 6 (Not 7 as it turns out) heroes are:

A Vahn High Shaper multihero.
An Avernite Archmage multihero.
A Nephil nature mage hero.
A Nephil/Rakshasa demonic hero.
A Slith gladiator.
An evil Vahn death mage who summons hraithes.

[Zebion]

A few thoughts on the race so far as played.

The race depends on it's archers to take out the enemies, only one force can take or even survive against an archer massed force. Race is rather good on points though, able to take sloth with no heavy penalties.

Varied warriors, able to pick and select what types needed based on resources/location/enemy. Need to fight an archer massed force? Take nephil archers with Avernum human guards. Longbowmen taking out your archers? Go with the avernite archers. Lots of flanking potential with the nephils and vahn warriors, able to take on heavy infantry with it's slith warriors.

Good researching potential, able to go down any research path thanks to avernum mages. Although heavily varied when it needs to get certain races, it can get any sort of combination of 1-2 paths, even some that really compliment each other, as always, the major mages are vulnerable to mind duel, but that's typical of Astral anyways.

The non-shaper vahns seem to be a bit powerful however in their picks, you may want to reduce it to 100% with maybe a 20-100% chance of an extra, you won't believe how many air 3's I've gotten so easily, able to teleport around the map air blasting, they just seem a bit to strong for their price, and as they are also sacred, they can be blessed with reinvigoration, making them stronger.

Havn't tried some of the higher level national summons, but the trog warriors seem good.

Nations sacreds scream Earth blessing, Reinvigoration and protection bonus seem to bless the entirity of the nation, the mages are incredible as stated, and the warriors with extra protection seem to survive a bit better, although they do better with air instead. Havn't tried any full bless paths with them, so I can't really state so far.

Nation so far seems to be pretty balanced along things, although some things could use a bit of resource changes and maybe a bit more gold costs.

If you have any parts of the nation you would want spell ideas or changes to. I'd be glad to provide some. I can't really think of any unit additions without changing part of the balance between the mages or commanders.

[Sombre]

I'm glad you enjoyed the mod. I think Avernum is fairly well balanced, though it is certainly one of the strongest nations in MA due to its powerful battlemages and access to a great variety of paths.

I did suspect the Vahn mage is perhaps too strong. They were intended to give easy access to extremely potent midgame evocations and represent the raw magical ferocity of the race. If I were to change them I'd either make them more expensive or change them to something like A1F1 AF 150%. That way you'd have a quarter of them as F3s or A3s, rather than half.

I don't think the sacreds scream for an E9 at all. In fact the E9 added protection only works properly on the Trog Defender, since the others lack the armour to make use of it. The reinvig is certainly welcome though.

I think they're one of the few nations that actually benefit from an air bless of some sort, since archers can mess up your vahn very easily. On the other hand S9 also works well and you can bet they'll have a whole load of astral pearls to make use of that magic.

I tend to consider Avernum a finished mod, like Skaven. There are little bits and pieces that could be added, but for the most part they feel complete to me, so I just make tweaks every now and then.

[HoneyBadger]

This is one of my favorite mod Nations, and remains a great example for what I want in a new Nation: Something different/unique, with complex variation, beautiful graphics, interesting strategies, units, and playing style choices, and it serves as an introduction to something I wasn't previously aware of.

If I could request that anything be added, it'd be nice to see some indigenous "animal" type beasties. It's not necessary, but there's such a wide range of humanoids (not to mention the "crystal souls" themselves), that I'd love to see "more of the world". Even as just independents, or site recruitables.

[Zebion]

While I don't think he is really adding anything fully new..The vahns did have all sorts of animal creations they did make. The six legged alien beasts, the slimes, the cockroach plague. Not to mention hydra's and chitrichs.

[Alderanas]

oo maybe you could add in the talking friendly spiders!

[Globu]

Hey Sombre,

I'm not sure if you'd want to add it into the mod, but I was just messing around learning how to do sprites, and turned one of the character portraits into one. I thought I'd put it up here for you in case you want to make her into a national hero or something. She took me a while, and I'm pretty happy with how she came out -- particularly the attack sprite.

If it's something you like, I was toying with the idea of making a few more. If not, that's okay. Let me know what you think.

Cheers,
Globu

[Sombre]

If you'd like, you can update the Avernum mod with new stuff. I'm happy to relinquish it to anyone who is willing to keep it updated. I had no further plans to update it personally.

I think it does needs a bit of ID jiggling in order to be fully compatible with my other MA mod nations though.

[Globu]

That's currently beyond my skills, but if anyone does pick it up and would like to do so, I'd be happy to provide this sprites and a few others.

[Humakty]

I could do the ID jiggling part. And anything not graphism related.

[Globu]

Well, Humakty, I did find a few things that could use fixing, along with a few suggestions.

1) The Avernite Captain's description says equipped same as troops, but has normal shield instead of kite shield, has no helmet, and has full chain main instead of chain mail hauberk. I'm imagining this was unintentional. Also, he has no patrol bonus like the troops from which he arose, and gets female names (nametype 119, misc female).

2) Likewise, the Avernite Archer's description mentions same patrol/peacekeeping training as the avernite guard, but archers get no patrol bonus. Doesn't make sense. Suggest either patrol bonus be added or amendment of description and rationale. My personal opinion is that they should have the patrol bonus too.

3) As mentioned with the Avernite Captain, a couple of other nametypes are mixed up. Avernite mages have nametype 100, misc. male, and avernite archmages have 112, caelum female, which seems oddly out of place given the lack of that cultural paradigm elsewhere in the nation (again, I'm not familiar with the Avernum lore, so if it goes with that, then disregard this comment). Suggest change to whatever is appropriate lorewise, and that they be consistent with one another.

4) Feedback/suggestion on Vahnatai Shapers and High Shapers, and Avernite Mages and Archmages: In line with what you talked about before in the thread, Sombre, I suggest some random element to magic. Beyond the fact that it makes it more consistent with the variation in the vahnatai mages, it just adds that bit of variety and unpredictability I personally love. As far as it impacts me, that's one of my favorite aspects of the game. Of course, I don't know the Avernum series games' lore very well, so take this with a grain of salt if it is inconsistent with that. But either way, count this as a vote for moar randomness in mage magic picks.

[Globu]

Sorry for the double post. Was too late to edit the last one.

I realized that the attack sprite had some uglies about it. I've edited it a bit, hopefully an improvement (mostly on the legs, bow, and her right breast). Getting a tiny bit better at my image-ripping sprite fu.

[Sombre]

I think if you can spot those problems you can easily edit the dm to correct them, in all honesty. You might be overestimating how hard modding is. It's piss easy. Just have a look at the mod manual.

The mod wasn't based too strongly on the lore of avernum at all. It just takes some basic bits and pieces and of course the graphics (with permission) and puts them together in an interesting mod shape. It was the first mod I did so I'm not surprised at all if it's a bit weird.

[Burnsaber]

Globu, that sprite is absolutely beautiful.

That is all.

[Globu]

I think if you can spot those problems you can easily edit the dm to correct them, in all honesty. You might be overestimating how hard modding is. It's piss easy. Just have a look at the mod manual.

The mod wasn't based too strongly on the lore of avernum at all. It just takes some basic bits and pieces and of course the graphics (with permission) and puts them together in an interesting mod shape. It was the first mod I did so I'm not surprised at all if it's a bit weird.

I'm not so averse to the simple aspects as I am to ID juggling in light of maximum compatibility with other mods (obviously yours, mainly) and so forth. I'm a bit more wary of that, as I'm not familiar with the ranges in use and all that. But, with your blessing, I'd be more than happy to apply the tweaks and corrections I mentioned (or collaborate with you, Humakty -- or simply let you handle it :)).

Just out of curiosity, Sombre, how broad was your grant of permission for game graphics? Was it all graphics from the series, or just from the first game, or some other criteria?

Globu, that sprite is absolutely beautiful.

That is all.

Thanks, Burnsaber.

[rdonj]

Yeah, doing the actual .dm would be incredibly simple. You would barely even need the manual with the work sombre has done already.

[Globu]

Alright, thoughts on the following proposal for random picks.

(Note that the proposals in regard to Vahnatai mages depart somewhat from the fairly strict separation you had between Vahnatai mages (air and fire) and Vahnatai shapers (earth and water), giving some dabbling room inbetween (each has a clear focus, but has randoms possible in all elements). Not sure how important that separation is thematically; if it is, then we just go with randoms only in the appropriate elements.)




Avernite Archmage:

Granted level 3 in one random elemental, and level 1 in two other elemental magic. (Example: F1W1E3.)

Proposed change:
FAWE 2
FAWE 1
FAWE 1
50% chance of FAWED 1
50% chance of FAWED 1

(Rationale: basic Avernite mages have access to death; why would no archmages have it?)

Vahnatai High Shaper:

Straight S4W3E3.

Proposed change:
S4W2E2H2
100% chance of WE
50% chance of FAWE
50% chance of FAWE

(Rationale: For the elemental randoms, simple variety and flavor. For the H2, it seems strange that the lesser Vahnatai Shapers are H2 priests, but that the high shaper hero is not. H3 seems thematically appropriate, but a bit too much balance-wise -- especially when throwing on power of the spheres and all that, so H2 seemed more reasonable to me.)


Vahnatai Shaper:

S3W2E2H2

Proposed change:
S3W1E1H2
100% chance of WE
100% chance of WE
20% chance of FAWE

(Rationale: Variety and flavor.)


Vahnatai Mage:

S1F1A1
100% chance of AF
100% chance of AF

Proposed change:
S1F1A1
100% chance of AFE
100% chance of AFE

(Rationale: Variety and flavor. Lorewise, the Earth addition is justified by new description line: "Some show signs of beginning the transition from a focus on the volatile elements to the stable ones worked by the Shapers.")


--------------


I have all these changes in a putative v1.6, attached hereto.

This is my first edit of a mod, so, eh, pardon if I screwed something up. Seems to work okay.

[Humakty]

It's of course ok with me if you do it on your own, I was under the vague compulsion to try and make a modpack out of Amos mods, updating them in the process, but I'd rather wait to be sure he won't show up again.

So PM me if you still want me to do some stuff.

[Sombre]

I suggest a new thread, so you can stick updates on the first post and edit it as needed.

Regarding permissions, it was along the lines of 'as long as you don't profit from my IP I don't care'. I only asked about stuff from the exile series (inc blades of exile).

[Globu]

Okay. Will do.

[Humakty]

So here we go : the file attached is normally compatible with :

Ogre
Lizardmen
Skaven
CBM
Bretonnia
Tomb kings
Wood elves

Basically I just changed monster id numbers from 27xx to 29xx.

I have yet to do some tests, will proceed to those soonish.

[rdonj]

Normally compatible...?

[Sombre]

I think I have excel sheets with the id ranges for all my mods, which might be of help. I could post them up if it's still needed.

Anyway.

I officially hand over the entirety of Avernum to Globu.

The only thing I ask is that you make it clear I am no longer the author, so I don't get asked about changes made in future versions.

[Humakty]

Well, I say 'normally' because I'm not very sure of myself, see when I was a child............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ......................................and then she flew out of the window.

Is it all clear now ? :)

[rdonj]

More or less :P

[Globu]

Makes perfect sense to me.

[Humakty]

Globu, in case you hadn't noticed it already : The file in post 134 should work with the mods whom's list you'll find in the very same post.

[Globu]

Yep! Thanks for taking care of that, Humakty. Checking it out now.

[Globu]

Okay, Sombre. I have done as instructed. New v1.6 release thread here (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=44944). Thanks for your work on this and your other excellent mods, by the way!