Vaettiheim 2.2

[Sombre]

PREVIEW IMAGE

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6985&stc=1&d=1222598687

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Summary: An update to the Vaettihiem nation. Exiled Vaetti and Gyga form a Late Era nation with troll, wolf and Spero allies.

Strengths:
Cheap, effective size 1 troops
Strong, durable trolls
Spero flying armies
Fast wolf based troops
Very varied recruitables
Useful wolf chaff summons and spawns
Heavily stealth based

Weaknesses:
Slightly unreliable and old mages
Weak missile troops
Weak priests
Sacreds cap only
Specialist units are expensive


UPDATE V 2.2

This is a relatively minor update in terms of gameplay, but changes a lot in the dm file itself so could produce some hilarious bugs.

-- All copystats replaced with actual stats

-- Many changes to ID numbers

-- Changed the role of the Wolf Lord to make him less of a call allies monkey

-- Replaced the werewolf spy with a simple and very cheap Vaetti scout

-- Exile Guard no longer cap only

-- Troll Druid gets +1 nature in a forest

-- Prettied up the flag and banner a bit


----Mod uses ID Numbers --

--Nation 74

--Armor 320

--Weapons 695

--Monsters 2400-2427

--Sites 887-889

[Aeshi]

I like those little goblin guys...Good thing they became a nation of their own!

Suggestion:Maybe a custom pretender?

[Sombre]

I could make a super ancient Gygja pretender, or just give them something new and crazy. I think the fenrer pretender or ***** queen work pretty well though.

I'll add a minor dominion spawn of wolves in a later update. Honestly though they aren't exactly a priest/holy/sacred nation, so the pretender and dominion are somewhat less important.

[Jack_Trowell]

I had myself a project of changing the exemple mod into a nation of vaettir and trolls (instead of wyvervns), I think it would be more appropriate, but as I'm currently too busy with my map editor, ...

[Sombre]

Huh, great minds think alike eh? Well I'm keeping the draconians as is, but the Vaetti also get 2 troll units, some more wolfy stuff and a troll hero or two.

If you want to make any suggestions or have any units etc I could put them in so you can carry on working with the map editor.

[Jack_Trowell]

You can use Bogus and his teams as sprites for heroes/commanders for your mod, that's what I planned to do. (The Troll mage could serve as placeholder sprite for a Troll Shaman for exemple, and the Troll raider could maybe serve as a troll scout/ranger commander)

[quantum_mechani]

Interesting... I was beginning to think my tutorial Vaetti nation ended up with such high stealth no one would ever uncover it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Sombre]

Ah, but you forgot we modders have control over the patrol bonus. "Your patrolling troops in D:/Dominions 3/mods found a concealed tutorial. A big grin ensued."

Thanks for making the Vaetti. It not only helped me with shapeshifting and namepool commands, but also gave me a lot of enjoyment in SP. I hope by having an SE on here more people will give the little fellas (and their big friends) a chance.

I'll definately add a troll shaman commander with limited earth magic (hey, he's a troll) but to keep with the theme of the nation he'll be a sort of overpriced and weak mage and have only priest 1. He'll really be there just to complete the wishes of troll addicts. As will the moose riding troll national hero.

The Vaetti are getting their own upgraded Fenrer pretender in the next version who automatically calls wolves when in friendly dominion. They'll also get a new type of vaetti infantry armed with a pickaxe who gives a slight siege bonus.

[Aeshi]

A minor gripe with the the Vaetti hag Description:


"Some Vaettis have learned the secrets of Seith. As long as they do not learn to much, the Gygjas
alow them to continue their practices. Since the Exile, the remaining Gygjas have been more accepting of
Vaetti magic."



So how come they have the same amount of magic as the ones in MA (EA?) Jotun?I propose they get 1 death and 1 random (or 2 random)

[quantum_mechani]

Steelfang said:
A minor gripe with the the Vaetti hag Description:


"Some Vaettis have learned the secrets of Seith. As long as they do not learn to much, the Gygjas
alow them to continue their practices. Since the Exile, the remaining Gygjas have been more accepting of
Vaetti magic."



So how come they have the same amount of magic as the ones in MA (EA?) Jotun?I propose they get 1 death and 1 random (or 2 random)

As recall, I gave them an extra 10% random.

I tend to make my nations very conservatively balance wise- enough power so it isn't simply unimaginable to play in MP, but well less than the top-tier base game nations. Besides, for the Vaetti in particular, I don't think more powerful really fits, if I were convinced they needed a boost I would lower prices.

[XiahouDun]

I would like a cheap shortbow unit. I really enjoy the mod.

[Sombre]

Hmm. Well they are sort of a missile-weapon-less nation, but I suppose it couldn't hurt for them to have Vaetti shortbow archers - be prepared for crappy morale though.

In the next version,... a new vaetti archer, a new vaetti with a pick, a troll shaman leader (weak magic/priest), a moose riding unique troll hero and a new pretender (with the fenrer graphics) called Crescent Moon Wolf who attracts wolves while in his dominion. I think with these added little bits I'll basically be finished with the SE.

All credit goes to quantum of course, I'm just adding frosting to a delicious Vaetti cake :]

[XiahouDun]

That's exactly what I want, thank you.

[Jack_Trowell]

What about reducing the cost of the moose archers ?

Currently at 45 gold, you get two shortbow attacks at precision 8.

Sure the mosse has great mouvement, and its HP can help survive some loose arrows, but I would rather have 4.5 indeps archers with precision 10.

If the moose riders were at 30 gold, they would still be more expensive that normal archers, but the mouvement and hit points could make them usable

[Sombre]

I thought the point of the moose riders was to hold then attack - they are sort of like multirole cavalry for Vaetti.

I haven't altered the stats of the vanilla unit, but I'll give them a test and see if they suck at charging as well as shooting.

[Jack_Trowell]

They have two attacks that could do some damage, yes, but with their low attack (and defence) skill, large size, and lack of armor they are less useful than even indeps light cavalry.

I could live with the low precision and armor by using them as mobile archers that can follow fast armies (with the forest trolls and wolf riders, you can have army move 2 with all units having forest survival), and survive some lone arrows or spell thanks to their HP. But not for this price.

[Sombre]

Yeah you're right, I just tried them out and they're pretty poor in melee, especially for the price. Ok, I'm going to drop the cost to 35 and maybe give them a touch more attack power. I mean a charging giant moose should be able to at least do /some/ damage, especially going by the description.

I hadn't realised how hard it is to get clean graphics from vanilla units. Any suggestions people? The pics from the info window and recruit screen are both the wrong size and with a screen capture they sort of blur into the surrounding background.

[Amos]

Use #copyspr command. Or if you want to change vanilla graphics there is a tutorial here (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=d3smm&Number=473417&page=2 &view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) . Also there was a tutorial for taking sprites out of the game by Endoperez but I have no idea where that is. I wish someone would "sticky" those posts.

[Jack_Trowell]

Suggestion : moose knight national summon ?

[Sombre]

I prefer national summons to be magical creatures and I'm pretty sure I'm using that sprite for a national hero already.

Amos: I just need to know how to get the vanilla graphics in a clean form and at the right size. I'm already ok with general editing, adding new sprites etc. But thanks :]

I've made an archer sprite but it doesn't look too great and it took more work than I'd have liked. Still, I think it's good enough for now.

[Amos]

I just need to know how to get the vanilla graphics in a clean form



Not possible. The right size sprites you can get from inside the battle screen. The whole process is not very efficient and too hard.

[Endoperez]

Amos said:
Also there was a tutorial for taking sprites out of the game by Endoperez but I have no idea where that is. I wish someone would "sticky" those posts.



My old method (for DomII) doesn't work any more. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif I did post it here in the Dom3 modding subforum, but I hadn't tested it properly and the units aren't shown in their original size (in e.g. description window) when Dom3 is windowed.

[Sombre]

Ah well. I can get the images in a sort of wrong size blurry format, but that's not too good,... still I used it to make a troll shaman (the troll mage as a template) who doesn't look awful, even with my useless graphical skills. Oh and the archer isn't as bad looking as I made him sound. He's fine from normal battleview distance.

It's spring festival out here (in china) right now,.. but in a few days I'll update this, maybe update the avernum nation,.... neither is getting national spells added just yet because I haven't wrapped my head around spell modding at all,.. but in the future they should do. I'll also update the mod list (I think people are finding it useful) and announce another nation I'm messing about with based on the poetry of the English Civil War. Yes, the poetry. You heard right.

[Jack_Trowell]

I love this mod, but there are two things that seems not right:

- The draconian chief should'nt have hands

- normal Trolls have 11 natural protection, already one of the best for a recruitable units, if not the best (of course some summons have better protection).

ow come that forest trolls, supposed to be a slightly smaller (less HP and strength) version of mountain trolls, have 14 base protection ?

With so much protection, a small pack of forest trolls or wolf trolls can take almost any indeps province.

If you really wants them to be better armored that normal trolls, just give them better equipment (or maybe let them have less armor that mountain troll, but with better combat values, or give them a protection for the head)

[Sombre]

Weird, I don't remember changing the prot value to be different from vanilla trolls. Let me look into this (wolf trolls do seem a bit invincible) and I'll probably drop the prot down. As for the Dracboss, sure I'll chop off the hands.

Next version will be out in a couple of days. It will be very nearly final for this SE. Glad you like it so far - check out the Exile/Avernum mod too if you have time.

[Sombre]

New version released. Check the first post.

The troll prot values are sorted out (trolls are still niiice shock infantry, but cost twice as much as Jotun giants and aren't twice as powerful).

Other than that, tell me if you like the new graphics for the two extra vaetti and the shaman. Believe me when I say they were more difficult to make than it might look.

[XiahouDun]

I like the changes a lot, I noticed that the new archers are size level 2 and the groundbreakers description would leave me to believe that they should have some siege bonus.

[Sombre]

#Siegebonus is bugged. It doesn't work at all as far as I can tell.

The size is fixed though. Good catch. I've stuck up the new version, 1.35.

[Sombre]

Ok a very minor update taking us to 1.4.

This is just so Vaettihiem can be used with Zepath's late era mods. It's fun to have vaetti, dwarves and elves all going at each other. I'll ensure balance with Themiskyra too at a later date.

[Sombre]

Update imminent. If you want anything included in the mod now is the time to ask for it. Suggestions for another national hero are very welcome.

[Sombre]

Ok, minor update to v1.5

1.6 will probably be final - I await feedback before I make it.

[Sombre]

I've changed my mind about a few things in this mod, so a lot of values have been adjusted this time. I believe the nation will be considerably less underpowered now.

Perhaps the most major change is that Vaettihiem now has a full selection of fort types, including a stronger starting one.

v1.65 is attached to the first post, so give it a go and let me know if you have any ideas, as usual. I am totally willing to add a couple of new units, summons etc if they're suggested and make sense.

[llamabeast]

Once again I'm up too late looking at mods by accident.

I just signed on to say it was strange that all the forts were the same, but I see there's an update. Magic! So, having an update gives me a chance to notice any uppercase/lowercase errors.

(what the files are called) -> (what the mod says)
Vaetti groundbreaker(2).tga -> vaetti...
troll shaman(2).tga -> Troll Shaman(2).tga

I guess the easiest solution would be to have a convention that all filenames are entirely lowercase.

An entirely separate comment: Being as the draconians are meant to have come from the cold place where the vaetti now live, it seems a bit odd that they are cold blooded. Presumably these draconians are different and more hardy than your average draconians.

[Sombre]

Updated for use with 3.08. See first post for download.

I'm sorry I totally forgot to sort out the naming conventions,... but an easy fix once you know how I hope.

[llamabeast]

So, I've been thinking lots about the Vaettiheim troops, and I have quite a few suggestions. I don't know if you're still interested in making changes to this, or if you're more keen to work on Arga Dis etc now. In any case, I'd be more than happy to mock up any new units/try out some balance changes etc, but only with your permission - it is your baby after all.

Okay, onto the units:

Vaetti spearman - lovely. I like him a lot. Perfect staple unit.

Vaetti archer - Similarly, just right.

Both kinds of wolf rider - again, really good. I think you've got the pricing and balance just right for both.

I really enjoy playing with these various vaetti troops for some reason, I don't know why but I think they're great. I tried to play a mass-markata strategy with Kailasa once, but that went hideously wrong. Maybe I just like small units.

Vaetti groundbreaker - I think these are an excellent idea, (particularly the strength potion!) but somehow just not quite useful enough at the moment. I've been trying to mix them in with spearman to add a bit of punch. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to work very well - I think it's their attack and defense stats (8 and 7 respectively), since their damage is quite respectable. Maybe the pick axe could be made less awful to attack with? I can see that they should be clumsy weapons, and the low defense rating is reasonable if disastrous for their survival, but the end result is that they're not much use in battle. I'd suggest increasing the attack rating of the pick axe by 2, and their base defense by 1 (they are experienced pick-axe users after all). They'd still be a difficult choice over the spearmen because of their terrible survivability, but they might at least work for causing damage. Their siege bonus could then be lowered to 2 or even 1 so that they don't become crazily effective when present in large numbers (there's likely to be many more of them around if they're useful in battle as well). Another possibility for improving their survivability would be giving them better armour.

Werewolf - I'd forgotten these existed! They look a little expensive to tempt me, but I haven't tested them so it's not a fair comment.

Moose Riders - I just can't work out what to do with these. As archers they're too expensive and take up too much space. In combat they're awful - mainly because they're too big. I know you've already made them a lot cheaper and better, but they're still missing something. Maybe the moose should have a powerful charge attack? Maybe the defense could be upped a little? Perhaps they could be cheaper?

I think actually I like the powerful charge option best - unleash two volleys, then... chaaarge! They might die, but they might just manage to break the enemies first.

I assume they'd look silly if they were size 3? That would be better. Another problem I guess is that this unit is already in dominions, so it seems inconsistent if they're changed too much. Still, I think it's better to change them if necessary.

Forest Troll - great, just right.

Draconian - I haven't got the knack of these either. I don't know if you realised, but in our duel I sent 800 gold's worth of draconians on a raid against you. Unfortunately I hadn't scouted very well, and landed in a province of independents behind your borders. It was only a moderately tough indy province, but they made short work of my draconians. 800 gold gone.

Of course, the main value in them is that they can fly. That's worth a lot. But still, they're just frustratingly bad - unless I'm misusing them, of course, which is quite possible.

Here's a thought I had: Replace the draconians with "Frost Draconians" or some such. Slightly smaller, maybe blue. They'd have no "cold blooded" tag, and be only size 3. This would be thematic, since they live in the frozen slopes of Crescent Mountain. They could even have a very weak cold aura. Anyway, I think making them size 3 would make them enormously better at a stroke. They've got good stats after all, they just get ganged up on horribly.

Okay, that's it for the units. Essentially I really like all of them, but can't work out how to use a few. I think already this is probably better than most vanilla races - generally there's several units in every lineup that I tend to ignore.

Now, I really like using masses of Vaetti, and I've been thinking that it would be nice if there were a couple more types of them. Here's a couple of ideas I had. I've written little descriptions, but only to give you an idea of what I had in mind.

Vaetti Scrounger

In the shadow of Crescent Mountain, life is harsh. The weaker or less lucky vaetti may struggle to survive, and be reduced to scavenging on the scraps left by their more fortunate kin. In times of war these desperate vaetti may often join armies in large numbers, finding worn and rusted weaponry and hoping to scrounge whatever they can in the wake of battle.

--

I like having silly numbers of units, and the vaetti are great for that, although their size 1 makes them look less numerous than they are. The thing is, they're not actually _that_ cheap - because they're really quite good soldiers. I was thinking it would be good to have a unit that really was very cheap, that you could mass in huge numbers to overwhelm the enemy.

These would cost 6 gold perhaps (I'm tempted to say 5 but that might be too low), and be generally a bit worse in every way than the normal spearman. They'd use a rusted sword, rusted shield and maybe normal leather armour. The rusted equipment might be resource free (being scrounged), making these easy to mass. They'll not do much good but they might just wear your opponent down or tire out his troops.


Vaetti Beast Catcher

In the forests around Crescent Mountain lurk many strange and hideous beasts. When the vaetti first fled there, many of them were killed when they strayed too far from the camps. And so, the vaetti organised teams of beast catchers equipped with nets, to venture into the forest and bring down the monstrous creatures that threatened them. The beast catchers were very successful, and have now become skilled at hunting down and ensnaring any monsters that stray too close to the vaetti camps.

--

These'd have nets, and maybe spears or something. They'd give the vaetti a chance against really tough opponents. They'd probably work very well in synergy with the groundbreakers, I guess. Balancing them would require a bit of thought, but other nations have net troops and they don't seem overpowered.

That's it for now! Like I say, I'd be up for creating prototype versions of these if you'd be interested but don't have the time, but no worries if you're not keen on the ideas.

[llamabeast]

I just thought I'd say that when I said I'd be happy to mock up any new units etc with but only with your permission, I really meant only if you'd like me to. I'd like to help out if you're short of time, but it's far more important that the mod keeps its sense of identity as your creation, if you know what I mean.

I was just thinking because Foodstamp said in another thread how he changed one of his mods loads because of feedback, and ended up hating it. That would be really bad.

[Sombre]

Well Vaettihiem SE was originally a sample mod made by QM to serve as a tutorial, so in a sense it's not exactly my work to begin with and belongs to the community.

I'm completely happy for you to work on it - if you can do graphics then go right ahead and edit/use mine, if not then I can new graphics for new units. Basically we can work on it together if you want.

I'm taking a break from modding until this weekend, at which point I can do a bit more on Vaettihiem, sort out some Arga Dis stuff etc.

As far as the draconians are concerned, I've used them in a SP game to deal a fair bit of damage by adding a squad of them to vaetti/troll armies and setting them to hold then attack rear. They aren't amazing in a fight, but enough of them can tear archers and mages apart, provided you keep the other troops off them. They can be used to paradrop behind lines, but it might not be cost effective.

[llamabeast]

Cool, that sounds really good. I guess I'll probably end up being quite short of modding time myself, since the plan is that any spare time I fancy doing something constructive I funnel into developing the llamaserver. But I'll definitely try to have a tinker with the vaetti when I get a chance.

Let me know what you think of my comments/suggestions when you get a chance.

[Sombre]

After a bit of discussion with llamabeast, I've decided to add Vaetti netters, Vaetti sorcerors and a Vaetti Hermit national hero to the nation.

Archers and groundbreakers will get new graphics (somewhat cleaner) and groundbreakers will get slightly altered stats.

Draconians will be removed entirely and replaced with the Speros, primitive mountain dwelling winged lizardmen who aren't coldblooded and can use some weapons. They'll have a regular infantry version and a chieftan to lead them. Slightly smaller and cheaper than dracs, but same purpose.

I might also do some kind of white werewolf hero.

I'll stick up some graphics tonight or tomorrow using mediafire.

[llamabeast]

*is very excited*

[Sombre]

I got distracted by other stuff and by trying to get a Tharoon beta together, but I did whip up some new graphics for the Archer, Groundbreaker, Sorc and Hermit. Hard to make the little vaetti look that good, but they're recognisable anyway.

The Speros present more of a challenge. I'm basically thinking of a slave warrior or regular ctissian of some kind as a base, stick on some wings, make them white/grey,... anyway it'll get done soon enough.

Here's a preview gif of the new stuff I did. The sorc looks very distinctive because I figured they're an entirely new order of vaetti that have formed and they're somewhat more influenced by newer 'evil' schools of magic than the old 'evil' Seith of the Gygja.

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=3otxirgymy2&thumb=4

Should work.

[BandarLover]

You never cease to amaze me Sombre. Those pics are sick. My fave has to be the bottom one. Is that a tank of some vile liquid it is carrying? Anyway, awesome as per usual.

[Sombre]

I should have 1.8 released by the end of tonight. I've done all the new graphics apart from the white werewolf and I've coded in the speros, the hermit hero, added a vanilla gygja hero, coded the white wolf,.... altered the groundbreakers (instead of making a new vaetti pickaxe weapon I just gave them an axe and shield - the graphic is still a pickaxe though).

The thing I haven't quite worked out is the new stats to turn the troll shaman into a troll druid and the stats/magic the vaetti sorcerer should have. I'm thinking he'll be blood astral death randoms with slim to no chance of nature picks.

[llamabeast]

Hmm. For the nature-free sorceror, how about D1 + (SDB) 130%? You could include nature in the 30% pick if you wanted.

I think that would work fairly well. He'd have quite a high chance of being useful. Well, getting S or D would be good. Getting blood would be a bummer - what do you do with a B1 mage (if they're too expensive to use as blood hunters)?

I suppose one solution would be to make him D1B1 + (SDB) 130%, so that blood picks would then be more useful. Are they meant to be strongly blood-themed though? I'm not sure what you have in mind.

How about just making the druid N2E1? Maybe with an extra 10% N, just for excitement.

[Sombre]

The Vaetti are a bit odd - if anything you can say they are nature based, since they get a couple of nature magic wolf summons. I would say Seith puts equal importance on BND with S as a secondary focus. I'm actually going to remove the chance of the hags getting S2 because of this - they'll still be able to get B2, N2 or D2 as before, if they're lucky enough.

The Troll Druid (formerly shaman) gets H1N2E1 with a NE 10% chance.

Sorcs don't exactly follow Seith, they've branched off and lose nature in the process; they still have S as secondary and still go for DB (blood and death are both alluring to these power hungry little sods, since it's widely used by the LA humans they mimic).

So I'm thinking of giving them D1B1 SDB120%, as per your second suggestion, with nature in the 20%. I'm sticking nature in there and making it 20% because I really don't want people getting 3D or 3B - they still can but it's real unlikely. We'll see how that turns out - with communions (which are a good idea with the nation in CBM) they should be able to pinch hit for the gygja as combat mages when needed.

I tested the netters just now and they made a mess of some heavy cavalry when sprinkled in with the standard spear vaetti.

The spero have odd graphics, but they look ok. You'll soon see what I mean.

[llamabeast]

That all sounds really good.

I will miss my S2 hags (of which I had no fewer than 4 in our game, which I think was ridiculously lucky because I reckon they should be 1 in about 48), but I suppose lucky Gygjas can fill in for them. It seems a shame to reduce the chance of hags getting astral, since the S1 ones are by far the most useful, but I can see where you're coming from.

The shamans and sorcs sound great.

[Sombre]

You should still get enough S1 hags with a 1/4 chance of getting it off the NBSD 100%.

[Sombre]

I've updated the attachment to 1.8 and it seems to be working.

If it stops working tell me and I'll set something up on mediafire.

ENJOY.

Oh and llama (and others) feedback on cost and stat changes is more than welcome. I think the vaetti sorcerer for instance might be priced a bit oddly.

[llamabeast]

Awesome, good stuff Sombre. I had a chance to take a quick peek, and the new graphics are really good. I won't have a chance to have a proper play till Monday unfortunately though, so I'll try to post some comments then.

[llamabeast]

I lied unfortunately, it's been a hectic evening. I've had a brief look, but will spend some more time on it before I post comments.

[llamabeast]

Okay, time for the periodic Llama Vaetti Commenting.

I'll go through the units in order.

Vaetti: Fine, of course.

Archer: You've increased their price? I think 8 was fine. They are, after all, fundamentally worse than human archers - worse morale and precision. Also being size 1 is a disadvantage for archers - they will rarely fight in melee (and will still die when they do), but AOE spells will kill them in droves.

Netter: Really nice, the sprite is very good too.

Groundbreaker: I think giving them a shield was more than a sufficient buff, I would be inclined to change their weapon back to a pick axe. Their main problem before was that they died too easily, but the shield amply fixes this. Now they're just superior to the spearmen in pretty much every way. I can form no opinion on the change in price though (I think they have gone from 12 to 11 gold). With a pick axe though, I think they will be really nice (and it's nice to have the attributes fitting the sprite closely too). Low attack, but the size 1 will counteract that. And they will have a lot of punch.

Wolf rider, werewolf: Still all good.

Moose riders: These still seem useless to me. I had an idea, I can't remember if I mentioned it: how about giving them a one-off lance-style 'Moose charge'? That way they could be useful in melee without being overpowered, and it seems thematic too. Otherwise I can't really think what you can do for them - they already have lots of hitpoints, more protection wouldn't make sense, and nor would more attacks. A charge would be funky though. I think these should be really fun units, but unless I'm missing a trick they're just not useful at the mo. Although I realise they're even worse for Jotunheim.

Trolls: Still all good.

Speros: These guys are awesome. A huge improvement over the old draconians. The graphics for them are really really nice too - I build them just to look at them. I really like the idea of the diving spear strike as well. I think they are a bit underpriced though - it feels as if I would be better off not building vaetti at all (I might be being silly here, not sure). Flyers should probably pay a heavy penalty in cost for their mobility I think. Hmm. Maybe 26? I'm not sure. The Abysian demonbreds are only 20, but while stronger, they're missing 2 protection, 2 defence and the spear strike.

Wolf trolls and exile guard: Still good, too.

Commanders: The sorceror is very nice indeed. Thanks for considering the idea, and good work on improving it. I do think he may be a little cheap, although the more I think about it the more I think cheap is sensible (they're unreliable on account of their randoms, and have old age). Maybe 120-130?

Spero chief - Fine, nice.

Forest troll shaman - Good, just right I think. A little expensive perhaps. They should be rare-ish, but being capital-only already achieves that. He also looks a bit mutant, but then I think he comes from an in-game sprite? I think of all the units this one is definitely most in need of redrawing Sombre-style, if it appeals to you to do it of course.

Gygja - Am I right in thinking they used to be 280? 340 seems very steep indeed, since they aren't really especially good. I know they're meant to be rare compared to MA Jotunheim, but I think that again that's achieved by making them capital only. I would probably leave them at 280 I think.

I hit end turn a lot of times, till i got the Crescent Hermit. He's lovely, I really like him. Good stuff.

Once again, I absolutely love this mod. Thanks Sombre! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Sombre]

The difference you're seeing is between CBM Vaetti and vanilla Vaetti. That accounts for the price 'changes', anyway. If you go over to the CBM version you'll find the prices remained much the same as in our duel.

I can pump up the price of Spero and add a bit to the Sorcerer too. I was a bit unsure of their costs to be honest.

As for the groundbreaker - I want them to mostly be a siege unit that you can use as heavier infantry. I can give them a new pick weapon, but since pickaxes are two handed, I can't give them the regular one with the shield as well. I dropped their siegebonus somewhat. I'll change the axe for a one handed vaetti pick of some kind, maybe put the gcost up a touch.

The Forest Troll is actually my own graphic,.. BUT, it's the first graphic I ever did for Dom3. I've probably improved a bit since then. I can redo it, maybe this weekend.

I'll drop the Gygja price for the vanilla version, but not much lower. 300 maybe. In CBM Vaetti they remain 260. I suggest you go check out the CBM version - when available it's the version I pay most attention to balance for.

[llamabeast]

Aha. Okay, I half wondered if it was that. Balance in the non-CBM version is good too though, being as for whatever reason most people don't play CBM (I've only ever played it in our duel).

So does CBM have cheaper mages? I thought archers would be more expensive? In any case 9 sounds too much to me for a vaetti archer (non-CBM), but I seem to have suddenly become a nitpicking monster, so please ignore me!

Sorry, didn't mean to be rude about your forest troll - but I think in that case you have improved a very great deal.

The groundbreaker plan sounds like a good one.

What do you think about the mooses?

[Sombre]

Archers in CBM aren't increased in price, they just have slightly nerfed bows. In the case of the vaetti is actually a larger nerf; they get the crude shortbow instead of the regular one, which itself is a bit weaker. I think they're 8 in the cbm version, same as spears.

I am sort of stuck with the moose unit, because it's already improved from the MA Jotunhiem original. I think it can be useful sometimes, so I'm going to leave it as is.

I'm not bothered about the troll ;] I know I've improved a lot and I'm not an artist, just a hobbyist I suppose. I was proud of him as a first effort at the time, but he does look like some weird slime fraggle now. I'll do a quickish graphical mod job based on the forest troll sprite probably.

Finally, it isn't that CBM has cheaper mages across the board, just that in CBM cruddy units are made viable. In the case of the VAetti, for the CBM version I wanted them to be competative, on level footing with random vanilla LA sides. The vanilla Vaetti however I wanted to follow the spirit of the original sample mod and make them underpowered. Now maybe it's time to bring the two versions closer together.

This weekend I'll make he vanilla one properly balanced, as the CBM one is.

[llamabeast]

Sweet Sombre, I'm happy. The new forest shaman looks really great.

[llamabeast]

Er, Sombre, I just noticed that the hags seem to have an extra random pick. I think it's probably an accident because you said you wanted them not to be able to get S2 (they still can). Also, while I'm nitpicking, the speros seem to have a red pixel on their toenails. And also, perhaps the wolf lord is overpriced (didn't notice before)? I'm not sure - although they have priest powers and wolf summons, they're also your only strong commanders, for which they're expensive (compare to an Arco strategos), and in my experience they ended up too busy to do much priestly stuff or summoning. Anyway, just a thought.

Other than those tiny things, as far as I can see you can declare the mod finished! Fantastic work, thanks so much Sombre.

[Sombre]

Attaching a preview image.

Again, a very minor update coming soonish.

[Sombre]

UPDATE V 2.2

This is a relatively minor update in terms of gameplay, but changes a lot in the dm file itself so could produce some hilarious bugs.

-- All copystats replaced with actual stats

-- Many changes to ID numbers

-- Changed the role of the Wolf Lord to make him less of a call allies monkey

-- Replaced the werewolf spy with a simple and very cheap Vaetti scout

-- Exile Guard no longer cap only

-- Troll Druid gets +1 nature in a forest

-- Prettied up the flag and banner a bit

[Casual Killer]

Hi. I love this nation, and I often use it in SP. I tried adding to them a Pretender God, the ***** Queen, but I do not get it right.

I add this lines:

#newmonster 2420
#name "***** Queen"

#copystats 401
#copyspr 401
#restrictedgod 74


#copystats 402
#copyspr 402
#restrictedgod 74
#end

But it seems not works. What am I doing wrong? Thanks.

[Soyweiser]

Hi. I love this nation, and I often use it in SP. I tried adding to them a Pretender God, the ***** Queen, but I do not get it right.

I add this lines:

#newmonster 2420
#name "***** Queen"

#copystats 401
#copyspr 401
#restrictedgod 74


#copystats 402
#copyspr 402
#restrictedgod 74
#end

But it seems not works. What am I doing wrong? Thanks.

I think it is all the swear words you keep adding. :P

Why the double copystats? just remove that.

And I do not know if restrictedgod is an overwritable ability, you are probably better off just typing out all the stats again.

And one more thing "it doesn't work" is not a good error description, what doesn't work? I assume it doesn't show up in the pretender list of vaettiheim is that correct?

[Casual Killer]

I do the double copystats because the ***** Queen is a shapeshifter creature, half crone half werewolf. And I said that it doesn't work because the ***** Queen doesn't appear as a selectable pretender, whatever I do. :confused:

I included the 'restrictedgod' line cause few nations have the ***** Queen as pretender, and I thought that it's necesary to add Vaettiheim to them.

PD: Sorry for my limited English, it's not my native language. :pc:

[Soyweiser]

Yeah, but you are copystatting two monsters into one. That doesn't work. You need to make a monster *****queen firstform, copystat one of the *****queens first forms into that, and make a second monster *****qeen secondform, and copystat the second form into that.

Also, iirc the second form should have a lower monster number, and be declared before the first form for it to work. (but could also be the other way around, not sure).