OT: Study Reveals Flaw in Black-Hole Theory

[Atrocities]

Kind of an interesting read for you Astronomical types.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,258540,00.html

"Instead of finding a whole range, we found nearly all of the black holes are either naked or covered by a dense veil of gas," said Ryan Hickox of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. "Very few are in between, which makes us question how well we know the environment around these black holes."

[cshank2]

But... But... that only makes sense...


They're giant vacuums (Shush.). New ones would have gas, sure... But the older ones would be bare because they suck everything into them.

BTW: Link no es aqui.

[Atrocities]

Link (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,258540,00.html)

[Azselendor]

No offense atrocities, but fox news isn't that great of source for science news and information.

http://space.com/scienceastronomy/070312_black_holes.html

[GuyOfDoom]

Azselendor said:
No offense atrocities, but fox news isn't that great of source for science news and information.

http://space.com/scienceastronomy/070312_black_holes.html



Correction, Fox news isn't a source for ANY kind of information.

[Atrocities]

You liberals really have it in for Fox don't you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

The article was based off of an AP story so I think it might be worth reading.

[GuyOfDoom]

Atrocities said:
You liberals really have it in for Fox don't you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

The article was based off of an AP story so I think it might be worth reading.



Considering there have been numerous cases where Fox has knowingly asked their reporters to lie and fires those who don't.... Yeah I'd say I have a problem with Fox.

And Fox News "bases" all there stories on something, but that's like saying the Neverending story is "based" off real life. It's technically true because a portion of it is true.

[aegisx]

All of the major news outlets are biased.

[cshank2]

Everything is biased.

[GuyOfDoom]

cshank2 said:
Everything is biased.



Very true because all news stations are trying for ratings, but on the scale it goes something like this:


No bias<-------------------------------------------------> Where's the truth

Fox News leaves that "where's the truth" line in the dust.

[aegisx]

I could say the same about CNN, its a point of view. I'm not saying I support either, because I don't. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

[Suicide Junkie]

They just wanted to say "naked" while not understanding anything about the meaning in context.

The nakedness of a black hole has absolutely nothing to to with the amount of gas around it, but everything to do with the event horizon.

[Atrocities]

Do any of you believe that black holes are portals to another realms? I do not. I believe anything that enters a BH is crushed into nothingness.

[Baron Munchausen]

There is a difference between 'bias' in the sense of putting a spin on things that you like or don't like but still reporting them vs. making [censored] up to suit your political agenda. Fox does indeed literally lie to promote their chosen cause -- the Republican party. Most recent slimy tactics:

1) Before the 2006 elections they sneakily tried to make people think that Foley was a Democrat, and never acknowledged their subterfuge even when caught and called out.

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=3570
"INCREDIBLE! FOX 'NEWS' LABELS FOLEY AS DEM DURING O'REILLY FACTOR!"

http://wonkette.com/politics/page****ergate/desperate-times-desperate-measures-205075.php
Desperate Times, Desperate Measures

2) Once the election was lost they desperately tried to show that the 'terrorists' were celebrating over the Democratic victory -- so desperate that a senior VP in the news division sent out a memo explicitly calling for his reporters to find such celebrations or anything that could be interpreted as such. And it was leaked.

http://hotair.com/archives/2006/11/14/fox-news-memo-look-out-for-jihadis-celebrating-democrats-win/
Fox News memo: Look out for jihadis celebrating Democrats’ win

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-geiger/fox-news-they-distort-w_b_34251.html
Fox News: They Distort, We Deride

3) They simply made up a story that Obama had attended a radical Islamic school when he lived as a child in Indonesia. Other news agencies simply investigated -- sent someone to see the school he attended. It was an ordinary secular state-run school. No acknowledgement of this 'mistake' either. Just silence after exposure.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/22/obama.madrassa/
CNN debunks false report about Obama

4) Oh, except that they then claimed that the story about Obama had come from Hilary Clinton's campaign staff. Blatantly trying to stir up strife within the Democratic party.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/22/obama.madrassa/
CNN debunks false report about Obama
(Yes, same story debunks both claims)

And you still want to claim that Faux News is a news organization???

[Atrocities]

Baron, they all lie. NBC has been caught and so has CBS, CNN, and ABC. ALL news organizations lie, they also make mistakes, and from time to time they have even made some huge *** whoopers and been called to carpet for them. Enough please. This is a free nation, if you don't like Fox, don't watch. Most of us are adult enough to make decisions for ourselves and are quite good at faretting out BS from fact. I myself won't watch NBC news at all. I prefer ABC and Fox, but mostly ABC.


Back on Topic:
So what would happen if a Black hole, say a very small one about the size of a pin head, came into contact with our planet?

[GuyOfDoom]

Atrocities said:
Baron, they all lie. NBC has been caught and so has CBS, CNN, and ABC. ALL news organizations lie, they also make mistakes, and from time to time they have even made some huge *** whoopers and been called to carpet for them. Enough please. This is a free nation, if you don't like Fox, don't watch. Most of us are adult enough to make decisions for ourselves and are quite good at faretting out BS from fact. I myself won't watch NBC news at all. I prefer ABC and Fox, but mostly ABC.



This is true, but I think we severely disagree on the magnitude. In other words FOX goes above and beyond.



Back on Topic:
So what would happen if a Black hole, say a very small one about the size of a pin head, came into contact with our planet?



It wouldn't even get that close before the gravitation would mess everything up enough that all life would be dead.

[Atrocities]

Just think, all we know about black holes is that we don't really know crap. In fact there is so much about the universe that we don't know that to even think we know the smallest fraction of what can be known is a horribly arrogant of us.

[GuyOfDoom]

Atrocities said:
Just think, all we know about black holes is that we don't really know crap. In fact there is so much about the universe that we don't know that to even think we know the smallest fraction of what can be known is a horribly arrogant of us.



The saying goes the more you learn the less you know. That doesn't mean we don't know anything and that doesn't mean that we can't try to learn. There are some items that are beyond our present reach, but that doesn't mean they will be forever. I'm somewhat confused as to what you're trying to say.

[Atrocities]

I guess what I am trying to say is that there is so much to learn that any one who thinks they know it all don't really know crap.

[GuyOfDoom]

Of course no one knows everything. Have you honestly met someone who thinks they do?

[aegisx]

I just don't understand the need, even if you agree that they all 'misrepresent'/skew the truth, to keep pushing that somehow Fox News is worse. that the company line?

[aegisx]

As for black holes...

"Keeton, a member of Rutgers' department of physics and astronomy, said it couldn't happen. He told The Chronicle that a tiny black hole probably could suck up only a few atoms at a time.

Yet it might not go unnoticed. If a black hole as massive as an asteroid -- thousands of tons -- passes through a room, there would be a subtle gravitational tug. "

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/06/09/MNGFHJBDE31.DTL

[Will]

Atrocities said:
Baron, they all lie. NBC has been caught and so has CBS, CNN, and ABC. ALL news organizations lie, they also make mistakes, and from time to time they have even made some huge *** whoopers and been called to carpet for them. Enough please. This is a free nation, if you don't like Fox, don't watch. Most of us are adult enough to make decisions for ourselves and are quite good at faretting out BS from fact. I myself won't watch NBC news at all. I prefer ABC and Fox, but mostly ABC.

Back on Topic:
So what would happen if a Black hole, say a very small one about the size of a pin head, came into contact with our planet?


The difference is that when other news organizations are caught reporting falsehoods, they at least have the decency to put out corrections. Fox makes a habit of ignoring any mistakes in their reporting. In that, they act more like a propaganda machine than an institution with any journalistic integrity.

As for the black hole... that depends. Are you saying the size of a pin head is the size of the event horizon, or the volume containing all the mass? If the former, it would almost certainly evaporate due to Hawking radiation. If the latter, depends on the starting mass, but it probably would also evaporate.

If a black hole were somehow created on the surface of Earth, it wouldn't last long. If it was created on Earth, then by definition it would need to have a mass much less than that of Earth, and so it will have a gravitic pull much less than that of Earth. If it doesn't have the dominant force, it will not consume much mass, and will evaporate.

If the black hole came from outside the solar system, then depending on the mass, and how close it passes by, it could either knock us into a different orbit, or take out a chunk of the planet approximately the size of the event horizon. Then it would continue to bypass us and either get caught up in the sun or exit the solar system.

[Baron Munchausen]

aegisx said:
I just don't understand the need, even if you agree that they all 'misrepresent'/skew the truth, to keep pushing that somehow Fox News is worse. that the company line?



Can you give a reference to a case where any other major news network than Fox (ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, MSNBC, etc.) tried to represent a politician caught in a scandal as belonging to a different party? And then refused to acknowledge the "mistake" when caught?

Can you give a reference to a case where any other major news network than Fox (ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, MSNBC, etc.) made an unfounded claim that a major 'rising star' politician had some sort of radical (not even necessarily 'terrorist') training/indoctrination in his background? And then refused to acknowledge the "mistake" when caught?

[aegisx]

On further reflection, this isn't the place for this http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[aegisx]

FNC did do a pseudo retraction, which should have been an apology for bad journalism.

http://www.newshounds.us/2007/01/22/fox_and_friends_corrects_obama_madrassa_claim.php

What is interesting is the claim is based off of the Washington Times. It looks like the show that it occurred on it like a Good Morning America or something, I haven't seen it.

[aegisx]

On further reflection, this isn't the place for this http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

But this is a thread about black holes...

What exactly is nothing? Is energy something? I'd imagine that matter is broken down as much as possible by the gravity. Perhaps to the most fundamental state/particle.

[Suicide Junkie]

More important than size, is mass.

A hole with an event horizon with radius 0.1mm would be 1% of Earth's mass.
That would be a pretty noticable gravitational pull.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/astro/blkhol.html#c2

[Baron Grazic]

Will said:
If the black hole came from outside the solar system, then depending on the mass, and how close it passes by, it could either knock us into a different orbit, or take out a chunk of the planet approximately the size of the event horizon. Then it would continue to bypass us and either get caught up in the sun or exit the solar system.



Does this mean Black holes can travel thru space like a comet?

[Phoenix-D]

Anything can travel through space like a comet, given the right orbit.

Mind, if a black hole or star does that, its likely to get a bit hairy on any planets in the same system..

[Wade]

Does this mean Black holes can travel thru space like a comet?



Yes. As do all solar bodies, including our sun. Our galaxy, like most galaxies, is in a constant state of motion. The solar bodies within it are also moving about. Galaxies within the universe are all moving about and colliding, mingling, and uniting also.

The unviverse is not static. It is in constant motion that is most noticable over millions of years; just as evolution of species on Earth is observed.

-Wade

[AgentZero]

GuyOfDoom said:
Of course no one knows everything. Have you honestly met someone who thinks they do?



Fyron knows everything but he won't admit it.

Does that count?

[Renegade 13]

Wade said:
Galaxies within the universe are all moving about and colliding, mingling, and uniting also.

Colliding, not really. More merging. I read somewhere (not sure where) that when the Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies merge, there should be something like 4 actual collisions between stellar objects http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif After all, galaxies are mostly just space, which is just...space. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Strangely enough, people are mostly empty space to.

[GuyOfDoom]

If you goto the atomic scale, then yes most everything is empty space.

[aegisx]

I always found it interesting that there is an 'infinite' amount of space between any 2 particles. .01m,.001,.0000001,.0000000000000000000001 and so on

[capnq]

Azselendor said: No offense atrocities, but fox news isn't that great of source for science news and information.

The "mass media" collectively aren't a very good source for science information. It's quite well-known that the more you personally understand about a topic, the more flawed any news reporting on that subject is going to look to you.
Atrocities said: You liberals really have it in for Fox don't you.

I'm a conservative, and I still consider Fox News an embarassment to both journalism and conservatism.

[Suicide Junkie]

That is anything but infinite, AegisX.

Just because there are an infinite number of points on a line dosen't mean anything about distances.

[Atrocities]

What, if anything, would be considered an opposite of a black hole? If gravity is so powerful that it can even bend light, then how could it be countered? Anti-Gravity? Just curious about this, if something like anti-gravity could be created, and when it comes into contact with gravity, say that of a black hole, what kind of energy do you think it would produce? Could it produce anti-matter? Could any energy, if any is created at all, be harvested and used for our benefit?

And what about artificial gravity? We know we can simulate gravity with centrifugal force, but that really isn't a practical means by any definition for the kind of gravity we would need to have if we are ever to honestly try and explore the stars.

[aegisx]

Suicide Junkie said:
That is anything but infinite, AegisX.

Just because there are an infinite number of points on a line dosen't mean anything about distances.



Maybe it is just a math property? You can keep halving the distance.

[Wade]

Getting really right down to it; molecules, atoms, protons/electrons/neutrons, quarks, String Theory(energy wave lengths); matter is just "organized energy".

We are made of the stuff of stars. I miss Carl Sagan of the 'Cosmos' series.

-Wade

[Phoenix-D]

aegisx said:

Suicide Junkie said:
That is anything but infinite, AegisX.

Just because there are an infinite number of points on a line dosen't mean anything about distances.



Maybe it is just a math property? You can keep halving the distance.



Xeno's paradox. But actually you can't keep halving the distance. You eventually hit a Plank (sp) length, which is as far as we can tell as small as things can get.

[Suicide Junkie]

Even if space is a continuum, you can travel half the distance in half the time.
Total time taken is finite.

Just because you're marking an infinite number of points (an infinite subset of the points on a line) dosen't change anything.

[capnq]

Atrocities said: What, if anything, would be considered an opposite of a black hole?

A "white hole" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_hole).

Unfortunately, it appears to be a purely mathematical construct that can't exist in the real world.

[TurinTurambar]

AgentZero said:

GuyOfDoom said:
Of course no one knows everything. Have you honestly met someone who thinks they do?



Fyron knows everything but he won't admit it.

Does that count?


That was my initial reaction to the question too, but I haven't "honestly met" Fyron, so I had to leave it be.

Funny though!

TT

[SothoTalKer]

I do not see something spectacular in this news. Probably the gas is not as much as a torus, but more like a very slim disk. Either watched from above we see the black hole "naked" (so every kind of radiation reaches us) or we see it from the exact side of the disk (thus the radiation gets absorbed). This only partially explains it, as it very unlikely that we see almost half of the black holes from the side. Another possibility is that only the nearest parts form such a disk while the other gas is like a sphere around the center black hole (which is very likely rotating). Of course there can be anything else in between. Since the do not name their sources, it is hard to say if they left out any important information to make it more easy for the reader. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Black holes are quite simple objects (but you can write very much about them), if viewed from the outside (the inside we cannot see, so we can only assume what is going on). You can describe a black hole with only a few parameters: its mass, its electric charge and its rotation.

The normal non-rotating black hole is a perfect sphere, despite the form of any object which was the cause (Even a cubic star would create an exact spheric black hole). This only applies to the event horizon (or Schwarzschild radius), the singularity inside the black hole could be of any shape.
The rotating black hole is a spheroid, similar to earth or sun. It is a bit more complicated as the event horizon is not identical to the ergosphere created by this black hole.

The event horizon is the actual "size" of the black hole. Everything inside can never get to the outside again and will eventually be destroyed in the singularity.
The event horizon can never get smaller (except.. see below). If two black holes merge, the mass of the newly created black hole is smaller than the sum of both masses of the old black holes. The "missing" mass have become energy or gravitational waves. But the overall surface of the newly created hole (which is exactly the event horizon) is bigger than the sum of the surfaces of the merged black holes.

The Hawking radiation is a quantummechanical effect, caused by vacuum fluctations (These must exist because of the uncertainty principle by Heisenberg). If such a fluctuation is big enough and happens near enough to the event horizon, a pair of "virtual particles" can be become real ones (Usually both virtual particles annihilate after a very very short time). But if one particle gets caught by the black hole and the other moves away from it, it seems for people outside that the black hole emitted radiation.
If you look closer at this you will see, that this radiation is exactly that of a "black body". A strange effect is that the smaller a black hole is, the hotter it gets, thus radiating even more.

Btw, if you are unsure about the size: our sun would create a black hole with a Schwarzschild radius of about 3km (now the sun has a diameter of about 1.4 Million km). The earth would create a black hole with a Schwarzschild radius of 9mm.

What happens if a very small black hole of the size of an atomic nucleus would fly through the earth? Nothing probably. It would just fly through and go away.

And what happens if you would jump into a black hole? That depends on the size. If it is big enough you won't even notice that you are now inside the event horizon. If it is a smaller black hole you will get ripped to pieces long before you even reach the event horizon. The reason is the same as for ebb and flood: intertidal forces. You get streched from feet to head and get queezed perpendicularly to it. Not a fun death, i suppose.

White holes and worm holes are valid solutions of the Einstein field equations. But that does not mean they will exist in the "real world". Not every solution of a mathematical problem can be applied to the real world. You probably know this from school where you sometimes get a positive and negative solution from a calculation (Example: the Pythagorean theorem: a²+b²=c² - if you have a with 3 and b with 4 - then valid solutions for c are 5 and -5. But since there are no negative lengths, you just discard it.)

There are many more things to say, but i guess i already talked too much to give you a headache. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Gozra]

http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=9kpgc4td

There is no such thing as black holes. They are artifical mathmatical constructs with no basis in reality. There is not one shread of concrete evidence to prove the existance of black holes. Gravity is the weak force in the universe.

[Spoo]

Gozra said:
http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=9kpgc4td

There is no such thing as black holes. They are artifical mathmatical constructs with no basis in reality. There is not one shread of concrete evidence to prove the existance of black holes. Gravity is the weak force in the universe.



Why should that website be considered an authority on the subject?

[Atrocities]

If gravity is so weak, then why is it so fundamental? We cannot see it, but we can see its effects. I would say that someone who considers gravity a weak force in the universe falls into the category that I mentioned in one of my previous posts.... the one that states people who think they know everything don't. There is so much about the universe that we don't know that for any one to make any definitive conclusions about anything would be a naivety of epic proportions.

[Renegade 13]

Gozra said:
http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=9kpgc4td

There is no such thing as black holes. They are artifical mathmatical constructs with no basis in reality. There is not one shread of concrete evidence to prove the existance of black holes. Gravity is the weak force in the universe.

Ummmmm...I'm afraid to say that the vast majority of the scientific/astronomical community (scientists, no less) disagree with you and that site. There is in fact a veritable mountain of evidence that supports the existence of black holes; to say they do not exist in the face of that much evidence is like saying the Sun orbits the Earth, and that very same Earth is flat.

[Will]

SothoTalKer said:
*snip... a bunch of sciency stuff*

There are many more things to say, but i guess i already talked too much to give you a headache. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



Welcome to the forums! Narf should be along shortly to offer you some cheese.
</threadjack>

[Azselendor]

The earth isn't flat!?!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society

As for fox news and bias.. Here we go with pictures of insanity.
http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/2007/03/fox_news_crazy_.html
The last one is the best.

the great thing about the universe is that there is so much of it. As a result, nearly anything is possible and I have to agree with atrocities because any definitive conclusion will be a huge blunder. We may observer a 1000 black holes operating in one manner, then find ten thousand doing something totally different and finally one more that defies the first two. There is no such thing as a clear-cut answer on black holes.

[AngleWyrm]

I believe in mermaids.
I've seen lots of "Artist's Conceptions", and some of 'em are hot.
Just because I haven't got a photo doesn't mean they don't exist.
I'm gonna make a research grant proposal for a yacht, to sail the Carribean in search of the elusive mermaid.

[aegisx]

Gravity is the weakest force.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/forces/funfor.html

[Suicide Junkie]

It may be weak, but it is the only long range force that dosen't tend to cancel itself out.

[capnq]

Atrocities said: There is so much about the universe that we don't know that for any one to make any definitive conclusions about anything would be a naivety of epic proportions.

That was the underlying inspiration for much of H.P. Lovecraft's work.
H.P. Lovecraft said: We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

And according to this article (http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7915), the majority of published scientific studies are wrong.

[Renegade 13]

H.P. Lovecraft said: We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

Well that's a rather defeatist attitude. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Phoenix-D]

Atrocities said:
If gravity is so weak, then why is it so fundamental? We cannot see it, but we can see its effects. I would say that someone who considers gravity a weak force in the universe falls into the category that I mentioned in one of my previous posts.... the one that states people who think they know everything don't. There is so much about the universe that we don't know that for any one to make any definitive conclusions about anything would be a naivety of epic proportions.



Gravity is very weak. I mean think about it- EVERY object has a gravitational field, but the only one you notice day-to-day is the Earth's. A space shuttle with chemical rockets can produce three to four times as much force with those as the entire mass of the earth can produce in gravity!

Black holes are an exception because they have such a ridiculous amount of mass in a tiny space.

[Atrocities]

I am a bad luck gravity well then. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

You mean you don't notice the fact that the sun is still nearby? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Atrocities]

When it comes to bad luck my friend, I can out pull even the sun.

[Suicide Junkie]

Well, if not for you, it would probably have gone nova, eh?

[Fyron]

AgentZero said:
"Fyron knows everything but he won't admit it.

Does that count?"

Feel the love.

[Renegade 13]

Sorry to go off topic, but...

...damn Fyron, you're gonna hit 20,000 posts soon! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

[SothoTalKer]

Next year maybe. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

You cannot say if gravity is "weak" or "not weak" unless you compare it to the other 3 forces (or interactions, which is the better word) that we know of: electromagnetism, weak and strong.
Compared to those the gravity is really really really weak: Let the gravity have the strength of 1 then the next stronger interaction (the weak one) has a strength of 1*10^25.
But since gravity is only additive and has an unlimited range (the others are either very short or can cancel each other out) it is the dominating interaction on the large scale. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[capnq]

Renegade 13 said: Well that's a rather defeatist attitude. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Well, in Lovecraft's cosmos, part of that "placid island of ignorance" was humanity's quaint notion that scientific "law" as we understood it was universally applicable, when "in reality" human knowledge was quite narrow and localized. The further you went from Earth, the more things you encountered that shouldn't exist, according to our concepts.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Sorry, I havn't been greeting newbies. There was this whole space where I didn't even visit because I wasn't playing SEV and even now I'm not playing much, so I'm not posting much.

But, anyone who wants cheese can ask for some. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

* Waves hello at all the newbies. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif