OT: MOO3

[gregebowman]

I saw MOO3 in a store the other day. I know before I had to stop going to this forum, there was a lot of disappointment in this game. I was wandering with the few patches and mods I've seen for this game if it's worth picking up. What do you guys think? Would I be wasting $20 buying this game? Also, if I do buy it, where's the best source for mods & patches?

[Atrocities]

Dissapointment is a huge understatement. YES you would be wasting your money if you paid any money at all for MOO3. The game is not worth toe jam or even the effort to collect it.

[Baron Munchausen]

Some people claim that if you apply a bunch of patches -- not just the official patches from the developer but several independently developed enhancements -- that MOO3 is now playable and even a 'good' game. This depends on your liking the new style of 4X game that it is supposed to be, of course. Sort of a 'sim empire' where you let the AI make most of the decisions and only tinker with some higher level controls.

[gregebowman]

Ok, thanks. I'll keep my $20 and buy something else.

[Raapys]

<---- Defender of ( patched and modded ) MoO3

Like the Baron says, it's nothing like Space Empires, or even MoO2; it's very special, and far more epic than all the competitors, I'd say. It does include all the 4x traits, it's just more..abstract? You got budgets, development plans and viceroys that all take part in developing your colonies( you can also go down and do it yourself, but that's sort of much work with hundreds of planets in late game ). Instead of sending single ships around, you assemble them in 'task forces', etc.

In short, it's a far more 'realistic' game, as if you're actually giving orders and having other people carrying them out, instead of overseeing every tiny detail of what's happening. And whatever else can be said about it, it definitely has the best colony and economy system I've ever seen in a 4x game, one I'd love to see adopted into SE.

To my knowledge, most of the disappointment with the game came from the crazy amount of bugs/issues upon release, and that most people expected MoO 2 with a graphics update( i.e. a typical sequel ), instead getting a new and different game. It's got some almost-game-breaking bugs without the mods and exe hacks, though.

[Fyron]

Best colony/economic system? Where you just build a couple of boring "regions?" No thanks.

[Raapys]

That's not how it works. Each planet has a number of regions, depending on its size. Each of those regions has a mineral value, an organic value, a population limit, a population growth rate, an unrest value, a 'condition' value, a majority race( decides race modifiers ), and much more. In other words, regions are sort of like colonies in Space Empires, just in MoO you have several of these on each planet( i.e. just like on earth where you have some areas which are better for mining/farming and such; that's what these regions represent ).

Each region can take two 'DEAs' and a number of 'improvements'. These DEAs are basically like facilities in Space Empires; for instance, a Mineral DEA requires an amount of workers and will produce minerals depending on the region's Base Mining Efficiency, the improvements built in the region, and alot of other factors. You have other DEAs like Industry( basically SE's spaceyard ), Bioharvesting, Research, etc.

In addition to this you also have other facilities that are not built for any specific DEAs, and offer all sorts of benefits. Take System Stock Exchange, for instance, which increases all taxes gathered in the solar system by 10%, etc. The tax income is even decided by how much of the population is employed.

So yeah, I think it's an amazingly well-thought-out system.

[Uncle_Joe]

The best description I ever saw for MOO3 was on the official QuickSilver forums back when the game first released.

It was described as "MOO3 is a turd...with corn in it".

And that was a very apt description at the time.

I TRIED to like it. But unlike SE5, it received very little official post release support. I honestly cant speak to the mods and unofficial 'patches' that were released. I know enough people like Raapys have claimed that the game is not only playable but fun to actually make me consider picking it up every now and then (the local EB had it for $9.99 for a while).

But then I remember that description...a turd, with corn it...and I come to my senses and dont buy it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Maybe some day I'll be jonesing for a space conquest fix enough to actually take the plunge again. SE5 has been a major disappointment for me, but I at least have hope that it will eventually be fun.

[Atrocities]

A turd with corn in it. Classic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[StarShadow]

Raapys said:
That's not how it works. Each planet has a number of regions, depending on its size. Each of those regions has a mineral value, an organic value, a population limit, a population growth rate, an unrest value, a 'condition' value, a majority race( decides race modifiers ), and much more. In other words, regions are sort of like colonies in Space Empires, just in MoO you have several of these on each planet( i.e. just like on earth where you have some areas which are better for mining/farming and such; that's what these regions represent ).





Sounds like a good economic system to me. Where are all the patches anyway, (both official and unofficial) required to make the game better? I was given a copy of MOO3 ages ago and never bothered to try it.

[Raapys]

You can find the mods over at the MoO3 Guardian. You really just need 1 of the "MoO3 Unofficial Patch Mods" now( There's 3 different ones ), since they contain all fixes and such. I'd recommend the strawberry version 1.1 and the strawberry 1.2 patch over here (http://www.moo3.at/mods/index.php?action=displaycat&catid=17). The latest official game patch( 1.2.5 ) can be found on that site also.

Turd with corn, eh? Poor MoO3, its reputation can never be repaired.

[PsychoTechFreak]

Raapys, I have installed the Tropical patch some time ago, but I have not yet played a lot with it. Do you recommend to switch to Strawberry? And if so, why?

I am still more in the process of reading the lengthy manual than to start the game...

[Raapys]

The reason I don't use Tropical is mainly because it completely changes what I think is a very good stock tech tree setup. I really don't like the way Tropical sets it up. It replaces the Physics, Energy, Mathematics, Biology and Social categories.

[PsychoTechFreak]

Mkay, thanks. If you know a link to a quickstart manual, strategy hints or something, I would really appreciate it. Unfortunately all of the better forums about MOO3 have been closed... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

EDIT: Found some at the "Guardian".

[Ragnarok-X]

Get it for 10 $. Get the mods and patches, play, enjoy. Forums (to get mods, patches) are at ataricommunity.com i believe.

Economical system is fantastic. Planets have regions, subtypes, extras (even regionwise), different atmosphere, temperature, bar etc. It is without a friggin doubt superior to GalCiv and, by far to SEV.

[Unknown_Enemy]

I knew MOO3 was almost unrelated to MOO1&2, so I was not waiting for a similar thing.

But MOO3 rebuked me because it was like an excel spreadsheet simulator.

[aegisx]

I shudder when I think about how awful the AI was when that game came out. I expected it to be on par with Moo2, but it was not even close.

[Yimboli]

@Raapys:

IIRC, Vanilla keeps the original intentions in tact while removing the game-killing bugs that were never patched. What additions in tropical do you find that warrant moving up from vanilla?

I still find myself requiring a moo3 fix. Pick up a game as cynoid and see how long until I'm at war with everyone and nearly overwhelmed... man I wish they hadn't abandoned moo3.

[Raapys]

You're right, Vanilla is just the bug fixes collection. Strawberry is the bug fixes and a set of cosmetic improvements( i.e. Gofur's UI, updated space combat effects, all text is updated and improved, etc. ). Tropical is the bug fixes, cosmetic improvements, and then a bunch of other changes, like a few new technologies, reorganized technology tree, AI autoconquer, etc.

So while Tropical contains some changes I don't like( i.e. the tech tree ), Strawberry is just a better-looking version of Vanilla, thus that's what I like to use.

I find myself using a customized Meklar most of the time. It's crazy how much you can boost research and manufacturing with race picks as them.

[Yimboli]

Oh now I remember, I actually do use Strawberry. But I didn't notice a huge difference with text or anything I expected with Gofur... so maybe I just installed it wrong haha

[Tim_Ward]

For a laugh, go and look at the documentation that comes with the unofficle patch. Especially funny; the AI speech is broken because the game was released with a misnamed text file... and they didn't fix that even though they patched it to version 1.2.5.

[Yimboli]

Tim_Ward said:
For a laugh, go and look at the documentation that comes with the unofficle patch. Especially funny; the AI speech is broken because the game was released with a misnamed text file... and they didn't fix that even though they patched it to version 1.2.5.



Yes I remember that, completely absurd.

[Wade]

I installed the Tropical recently. I did not even try to play again because the change list states "Race Selection (Ensures no duplicate races until all used at least once) - Bhruics Patcher ". There were still duplicate races while all were not used at least once. Also the texture on many panels was changed to some funky, annoing, attempt to look like stone marble. Many of the changes in these unofficial upgrade lists(Vanilla, Strawberry, Tropical at: http://www.moo3.at/mods/index.php?action=displaycat&catid=17 ) seem superficial or opinionated if really considered.

I re-installed Master of Orion III as Stock/Official only. I may try to play again in the future. The game is... alright. The official update version 1.2.5 resolved many issues but not all, of course. There are many bad aspects but also many good features that would be nice if seen in more games...maybe in future Space Empires?

Should we start a constructive list of the positive and negative features in Master of Orion III?

-Wade

[Raapys]

If you're going to be playing stock, at least try to get a hold of the "Visbility Bug", "Finance Wraparound Bug" and "Tech Stuck Bug " exe-patches, as each one of these bugs are just about game-breaking.

Not sure why the duplicate race fix doesn't work. It's working fine here, but it's been so long since I installed the stuff that I can't remember if you have to manually apply some of those exe patches that follows or whatnot. And while many of the changes are 'opinionated', as you say, that's mostly just in strawberry and tropical. Vanilla is pretty much how the stock game 'should have been', so that's what I'd recommend if you didn't care for Tropical.

For the positive features, I'd have to go with, as I mentioned already, the whole planet/economy/development-plans system. It's just lightyears ahead of all other 4x's. And while I'm sure alot of people will disagree, I think the technology system also does its job very well( technologies spread over 5 research areas ); I think it gets sort of tedious and strange to select every single tech to research, in other 4x games. I also like the rather original 'Council Room' feature, although it could perhaps have been utilized better. Leaders are definitely cool, too. The game also got an epic feeling to it that no other 4x game I've played has had, except possibly MoO2 to a lesser degree( because of the superb MoO2 soundtrack and *the stellar converter miniclip* ).

As for the negative, I'd have to say that just about everything related to combat and ship management is rather poorly thought-out, and there's tons of stuff to be desired regarding task force management, tactics/strategies, etc. I mean, the only options available for task forces( and thus ships ) is to either Move them, or Disband them, that's it. Espionage is also something that's not nearly good enough.
I also miss the space monster/antaran events from MoO2.

[Wade]

Visbility Bug", "Finance Wraparound Bug" and "Tech Stuck Bug "

Will you explain these bugs, please? I do not remember encountering them when I used to play.

[Raapys]

The visibility bug is basically symptoms of the malfunctioning stock ECM/ECCM systems in MoO3. Ships will, apparantly without reason, change between being visible and invisible, even if they're inside sensor range.

The Finance Wraparound bug is a problem where very large empires who's income in a single turn exceeds a certain amount suddenly goes bankrupt, ending the game.

The stuck techs bug is quite literally what the name indicates; there's a chance technologies you try to research will stay in the "Research Items" box indefinitely, never finishing.

[Wade]

Okay. Thanks Raapys! I now remember encountering these but not the "Stuck Tech". I always thought that the ships appearing and disappearing as they maneuvered was do to the opposing electronic systems battling each other. I agree that it was very annoing.

I will now install the Vanilla upgrade because looking again at the list I see that they are all reasonable and some were very needed or wanted.

http://www.moo3.at/mods/index.php?action=displaycat&catid=17

As for the artificial intelligence in Master of Orion III, I played on "Hard" level(the third out of four) and remember the AI using war, espionage, diplomacy, and research well.

[capnq]

Raapys said: For the positive features, [...] while I'm sure alot of people will disagree, I think the technology system also does its job very well( technologies spread over 5 research areas ); I think it gets sort of tedious and strange to select every single tech to research, in other 4x games.

That was one of the things I liked about Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, the "blind research" rules option. I'd enjoy a game that combined that with MoO's uncertainty about how long the research will take.

(I've only played the original MoO. I once ordered a copy of MoO2 from Amazon; they said they'd notify me "when" it was back in stock, but I never heard about it again from them.)

[StarShadow]

I'm having an odd problem, my budget goes straight to hell if I scrap ships. I scrapped 34 ships at one point and my modest surplus of about 100AU per turn, turned into a huge -2500AU deficit! What is going on?

[AgentZero]

That's MoO3 sucking.... your money away! Geddit? Geddit?

[SothoTalKer]

If the publisher and the developer would have cared more about the game it could have become much better. But unlike SEV which also has its flaws but gets improved constantly, MoO3 has been abandoned. If you let people hack the exe just to fix bugs it is clearly a sign that you don't care anymore.
It is a disappointment for all MoO2 fans that expected a sequel with a similar gameplay. But if you view it unbiased it is an OK game - you have to work around the bugs, apply fanmade patches to make it more enjoyable. You have to get used to the macromanagement, though.

[Ragnarok-X]

Well, the money interface is pretty broken. There is a thread about it in the atariboards. I remember that it goes like this: The amount that is displayed is not really your actual treasure, a few budget "positions" are missing.

[cshank2]

Well, I reinstalled MOO3 last night. Got the Tropical and 1024x768 mods. Game isn't half bad now.


(Yes, I'm being serious.)

[Raapys]

I didn't really like the high-res mod. Something about the interface didn't feel right to me. It's nice to have the lists show more items, though.

[SothoTalKer]

There have been a few nice mods. And the game is also very easy modable. Although the developer/publisher never made any docs regarding that.
They acted like: "Hey you got the game from us - now play it. Oh, there are a few bugs? Ok, we will make 2 patches and then thats it - no more support - 2 patches should be enough to fix the game (even though we released it in beta stage), we don't care about this MoO series at all. Be lucky that you got a new MoO. Ah, and the game is modable, but you have to figure out things alone, we won't help you with it.

More patches, more fixes, a developer/publisher that would have cared for the game itself, the MoO series and the fans would not have buried the game. The game was released on 02/25/2003. The latest patch was released 07/18/2003. I do not know if it is common practise that a game is abandoned after 6 month, even if the developer and the publisher know that there are many bugs left.

The game IS good with the additional fan-made fixes/patches. But it will never be as good as SEV due to the reasons stated above.

[cshank2]

It's Atari. They just suck no matter what.

[Ragnarok-X]

Yes, i agree. Atari is by FAR the worst publisher out there. I figured as much after they abandoned Temple of Elemental Evil.

[Raapys]

Quicksilver was a pretty decent developer company, I'd say. They really listened to fan input, they were ambitious, and they listened to my favorite music, Tool. Not much they can do when the publishers cuts the funding, though.

I thought I read somewhere about MoO4 being planned by some other company.

[Wade]

Wade said:
I installed the Tropical recently. I did not even try to play again because the change list states "Race Selection (Ensures no duplicate races until all used at least once) - Bhruics Patcher ". There were still duplicate races while all were not used at least once. Also the texture on many panels was changed to some funky, annoing, attempt to look like stone marble. Many of the changes in these unofficial upgrade lists(Vanilla, Strawberry, Tropical at: http://www.moo3.at/mods/index.php?action=displaycat&catid=17 ) seem superficial or opinionated if really considered.

I re-installed Master of Orion III as Stock/Official only. I may try to play again in the future. The game is... alright. The official update version 1.2.5 resolved many issues but not all, of course. There are many bad aspects but also many good features that would be nice if seen in more games...maybe in future Space Empires?

Should we start a constructive list of the positive and negative features in Master of Orion III?

-Wade



Okay, I originally responded too quikly with this statement. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif The Vanilla mod actually seems good for fixes while keeping the official design of the game. As for the duplicate races issue, I think that I was seeing only the Orion Senate empires present. Some were duplicates but many more were not in the senate. Vanilla increases the maximum number of empires.

Explore, Expand, Exploit, Exterminate, and Experience with Master of Orin 3(version 1.2.5); Vanilla(or Strawberry or Tropical for more flare). http://www.moo3.at/mods/index.php?action=displaycat&catid=17

[Wade]

I originally paid $49.99 for Master of Orion 3 with pre-order at a game store. I had only attempted to finish one long game over months. I never finished although I was winning after a struggle. Damned Ithkul Harvesters! I remember I was fighting two empires of them on opposite sides of my empire.

I suppose I might try again to get my money's worth. I still have the box and manual. Also, I still have the Strategy Guide that I actually paid $19.99 for. It wasn't needed though. I was just a big fan then. Some of the charts are helpful but others ,I think, are inaccurate.

I do like the story and style of the Ithkul Harvesters as a dangerous enemy though.

I really liked how each AI empire had random names while the race names were always standard. Sometimes the empire names were cool, bizzare, or funny. Maybe this can work in Space Empires VI.

-Wade

[gregebowman]

Thanks to the above messages, I'm rethinking about spending that $20. I just might get it anyway. I just picked up GalCivII, and I'm in the mood to conquer a few more universes. Thanks for the info.

[SothoTalKer]

It is definitely not worth $20. Maybe $10 if you can get the grip of it and begin to like it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[gregebowman]

Unfortunately, I just found out that the EB stores no longer sell used computer games. I guess there's no profit in it. So unless I see it marked down to that, I just may have to pony up that $20.

[cshank2]

EB doesn't sell PC games anymore?

The bloody hell?

[AgentZero]

cshank2 said:
EB doesn't sell PC games anymore?

The bloody hell?



Used computer games. Things haven't gotten that bad for us just yet.

[Fyron]

EB Games/Gamestop are vile, PC or console. Best to boycott them entirely.

[PsychoTechFreak]

gregebowman said:
Thanks to the above messages, I'm rethinking about spending that $20. I just might get it anyway. I just picked up GalCivII, and I'm in the mood to conquer a few more universes. Thanks for the info.


Do you have Dark Avatar also? How is it? I have some things to play before, but this will be most likely my next one.

MOO3 is given away at e-bay for about 8-10 bucks (in europe at least). I have even got MOO2 as a bonus (but who cares about MOO2 today...).

[gregebowman]

No, no Dark Avatar yet. My PC doesn't quite meet the hardware requirements. Which is the story of my life lately, because just about any game I'm really interested in I can't play; such as Civ 4. I really want to play that game, but unless fate is kind to me and I win the lottery, it's just another game I can't play. I'm grateful I can play SEV. I was really dreading after getting my computer back that I would find out I couldn't play it. But I can, and I'm enjoying it.

[PsychoTechFreak]

Dark Avatar requirements are higher than its base game? I was not aware of it.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Imperator Fyron said:
EB Games/Gamestop are vile, PC or console. Best to boycott them entirely.


??

[gregebowman]

Well, the reason behind this thread is moot at this time. Went back to the GameStop (which replaced teh EB in teh local mall), and it was gone. I'll keep an eye out for it. BTW, does anyone know how to get MOO2 to work. I tried to play it, but it was so dark on my screen I couldn't see the menu to start the game. I don't know if it's an incompatibilty issue (the back says it's for W95 or W98), or what. I find a patch for the game, but I haven't tried installing it yet.

[Fyron]

Try adjusting your gamma settings before running it?

[gregebowman]

Imperator Fyron said:
Try adjusting your gamma settings before running it?



My what!!

[Raapys]

I don't know, it runs fine here using WinXp. Try the patch, or try running it using win95 compatibility if the patch doesn't do the trick.

[Fyron]

In your video card's display properties.

[capnq]

If your video card supports gamma correction (I've had cards that didn't), it might be in Properties.

The last two monitors I've owned had gamma correction in their onscreen controls.

If your monitor is quite old, replacing it could help, as I described in this thread (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=496455&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=1). ("I see...C O L O R S !" in the Bar & Grill, if the link doesn't work.)

[Fyron]

You've got to have a really old card for it to not have the capability to adjust gamma settings. Its been a basic feature from both nVidia and ATI for many years.

[Yimboli]

strange that you're having moo2 problems... I was able to run both the dos and win95 versions on winxp.

[gregebowman]

Well, my monitor is almost 10 years old. I have a Savage Pro card, and I did find a gamma tag in my video settings, but it was disabled due to not having the right kind of card. I'm thinking of getting another one, like nVidia, but I'll have to save quite a few pennies at this time to get it.

[Fyron]

You can get a decent nVidia AGP card for $30-40 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010380048%204025&bo p=And&Order=PRICE). It won't be running modern high-end games, but it should cover older games and less-demanding games like SE5 well enough.

[PsychoTechFreak]

Moo3.exe from Strawberry 1.2 does not start. If I take the older one (1.1) then it starts, but the version displays 1.25. How can I see if Strawberry 1.2 is active?

[Raapys]

Well, the mod will still be active, since it alters other data files. The reason there is a modified .exe file is because of the data patches applied; parts of the mod. The version number just displays the MoO3 version, not the mod version. 1.25 is the latest official patch, so that's okay.

What you can do is to delete the strawberry exe file and put the old( patched ) one back in place, then manually apply the data patches using the Moo3Patcher.exe file that follows with the mod.

[PsychoTechFreak]

Thanks, Raapys.

I remember the Tropical Mod displayed the Mod version...

I have patched every item with status "unpatched" in the patcher, except one item with the status "incompatible" :

Senate Victory requires 2/3 of the vote.

PS: I had to use it with Strawberry 1.1 exe because the backup exe has displayed "incompatible" for every item.

[Raapys]

You don't have to patch everything, though. You can take out changes that you don't like.

I thought the Strawberry exe file was already patched with most/all of them. Note that there's also a .dll file involved, which is the file that decides which patches can be applied, I believe. You'd also have to rename the backup exe file to MoO3.exe for it to work. If you did that, then I'm not sure what went wrong. At any rate, as long as the strawberry exe works it doesn't matter.