Minefields part two

[Dethgod74]

Hello all,

it seems that one of my planets was able to get out a minefield before it got glassed. Unfortunately none of the AI ships struck any mines. I'm guessing it's because laying mines or launching from planets comes after movement.

Question now is, does moving OUT of a sector containing mines, will these ships have a chance to strike any?


Thanks in advance!

Regards,

Rob aka dethgod74

[Urendi Maleldil]

Mines only strike ships when they move into a sector. So if you already had enemy ships in orbit and then launched the mines, it won't do any good.

However, launching mines in orbit around your planet ahead of time is a good idea, and will help defend against enemies when they enter the planet's sector.

[StarShadow]

Yes, mines are a *great* way to defend your planets in the early game and somewhat into the mid-game, if you're only playing against the AI. Get your minefields in place as early as possible, don't wait to be attacked, once an enemy ship is already in a sector mines won't work unless he moves out of that sector (and back into it).

My personal suggestion is to stick with small mines and Lvl 3 warheads. You'll be able to make large amounts of mines in quick time, which is important when your enemies start building sweepers. Sweepers will clear only a certain number of mines, regardless of the size of the mines.

[Dethgod74]

I'll post this question here since no one has answered my other question. How can 17 CLs (Light Cruisers) with NO minesweepers (none of the mines disappeared) get by 30 small mines over my homeworld? None of the mines blew due to contact, and none were swept, how did the AI ships get into my home sector?

[douglas]

There are exactly two ways to get ships past a minefield without sweeping or triggering the mines - get them there before you break your treaty with whoever controls the minefield, or get them there before the minefield exists. If an enemy fleet moved into a square with a hostile minefield in it and the mines are still there after the fleet moved, you encountered a bug. Mines launched after the fleet has already arrived will not detonate, nor will mines that were present but didn't blow immediately due to a treaty, but any time a hostile ship moves into a pre-existing minefield the mines will blow, even if the ship is cloaked beyond your ability to detect normally.

[Dethgod74]

Hi Douglas,

Then I have encountered a bug. There were 30 mines, each containing 2 small warheads, in system BEFORE the AI ships arrived. I evidently launched 10 more AFTER they arrived.
I think I would have gotten a report had any of the mines exploded, but I didn't. All 40 mines are still there as well as a boatload of enemy CLs.

There is no treaty, we're at war.

Now what should I do Douglas? I'm running SE4 v1.95

Regards,

Rob

[Suicide Junkie]

I betcha you saved the game after sending political messages a few turns ago.
Your minefields think you're still at peace.

To fix; declare war again (may have to sign a treaty first) or take over their empire for a turn and declare war.

To prevent:
Don't save after doing politics. Do the politics last.

[Dethgod74]

WHOA!!!! I have to DECLARE war on that AI race before my mines will freakin' work? I would think that would be done AUTOMAGICALLY once the AI declared war on me. If not, that's a REALLY STUDID WAY of NOT doing things right.
UP until this point I thought the game programmer had it 'going on...' No longer. Jeeze, not even my step daughter is THAT stupid.

BTW, this race declared war on my about turn 5 or 6, right after they vaporized my first colonizer through the warp point going INTO their system.

Never sent this race a treaty proposal.

So Junkie, you're saying that for my mines to be effective, I have to DECLARE WAR on that specific race?

If this is true, then why did my Weapons Platforms fire on his ships when they came in range. OR do my Weapons Platforms auto declare when a ship other than my own comes in system?

Is there a toggle in the Empire screen that will allow me to AUTOMAGICALLY DECLARE WAR on EVERY RACE encountered?

Please don't misunderstand Junkie. I'm not p!ssed at you. Really, up until now I thought this game was one of the best I've ever played, AT ANY COST. But this, IMHO, is a HUGE oversight.

This would be like, I'm sitting in a chair minding my own business, when you walk into my room, kick me in the package twice then give a right cross to my chin.
I can't do anything BACK to you because I didn't tell you I didn't like you BEFORE you freakin' walked in.

Somebody please this again to me SLOWLY.

Thanks for the reply Junkie. It's most appreciated.

I would be so ticked off except I've lost three planets in three turns JUST LIKE THIS...

Nope, the above reason doesn't work and I just figured out why. I've NEVER declared war on someone and my mines over WARP POINTS have worked JUST FINE. Also, my fighters at warp points. So this HAS to be a bug...

Regards,

Rob aka dethgod74

[Suicide Junkie]

Jeeze, man, overreact much?

Its the fact that somebody's war declaration didn't go through. Your status says war, but they still have a treaty with you that lets them bypass the mines.

[Dethgod74]

No, I don't over react much, but when 20 turns of production gets vaporized, I do get a little emotional.

Where would I find this at? I see I'm at war with both, but don't see any treaties with either.

How do you declare war on a specific player? A 'war treaty' is not available with either of the ai races.

Regards,

Rob

[StarShadow]

Interesting. In any case you don't need to be at war for mines to work. If your relation with an AI is War, None, or Non-Intercourse, mines will detonate on contact. I've never had a case where the AI ever managed to bypass a minefield, so I can't speak to that problem. Also note though that if you are at war, then your 'treaty' with that AI is WAR.

[Suicide Junkie]

Right, that's the whole problem.
Odds are you saved the game after sending the political message in which war happened. Which causes the politics to go out of synch.

If you change the AI to be human-controlled, I betcha 1000 minerals that they see a Trade or better treaty with you.
They might even be getting resupplied at your mined planet if you had military alliance beforehand.

As I said, if you can convince them to sign a treaty, you can then declare war again the turn afterwards, and it will work (if you don't save after sending!)
Or, you can take over their empire for a turn, and send a declaration of war to resynch.

[Dethgod74]

Hi Junkie,

Sorry for the blow up yesterday, but I had a specific set of plans and ALL of them depended on mines working to keep the AI out... My humble apologies.

Here's the problem with your solution. This is sort of a PBW game where the game resides on another player's server. I have no way of getting to that server. This to me sounds like a BUG, not a player issue. I frequently save all my games because more times than not, I cannot complete a turn all at once. I can't play during work obviously, but I can play during my lunch time, but often that is not enough time. I'm pretty sure I'm not the ONLY player who saves a turn midgame, or else the feature wouldn't be IN the game.

Is there any other way to address this, other than emailing Aaron for a possible solution?

Thanks again for your speedy reply.

Regards,

Rob aka dethgod74

[Captain Kwok]

Unfortunately at this time I don't think you can expect to see a fix from MM.

The rule of thumb is to do your diplomacy at the very end of your turn to avoid this issue, which still gives you the freedom to save your turns as much as you need to.

[Dethgod74]

Hello again.

I take it that I'm the only one that sees this as a bug?

I'll take my shot and email Aaron anyway, since I no other recourse.

My thanks to everyone that took the time to respond.

Regards all,

Rob

[Dethgod74]

Hello again,

Can anyone tell me if this fubar arrangements for mines and politics exists in SE5 or did it get fixed. Maybe it's time for me to upgrade.

Does anyone know this?

Regards,

Rob aka dethgod74

[Dethgod74]

Hi folks,

Mikeydz says I should mention the fact that this game is set up as Human vs AI players.

Might I add that my fighters attack this player, and my planets attack this player, but my mines will not detonate.

Since this game is in team mode, I would think that WAR automatically exists between AI and human players.

Thanks again for your time folks!

Regards,

Rob aka dethgod74

[capnq]

Dethgod74 said: Here's the problem with your solution. This is sort of a PBW game where the game resides on another player's server. I have no way of getting to that server.

Then ask the host of the game to check the AIs to see if SJ has correctly diagnosed the problem. The game host can change the AIs to human control and set any passwords he needs to check their turns. If he's careful about backing up the current .gam files to a different folder, he can do all this in a test run and restore the original turn if this doesn't fix the problem.
This to me sounds like a BUG, not a player issue.

If SJ has diagnosed it correctly, it is a known bug, and SJ's explanation is the "standard" workaround for dealing with it.

[Dethgod74]

Quoting you:

To fix; declare war again (may have to sign a treaty first)

Is there way to do this w/o monkeying with the server?

Otherwise, I think I have talked Mikeydz into affecting the previous fix you suggested.

Thanks again for your time Junkie.

Regards,

Rob aka dethgod74

[mikeydz]

Ok, here is the setup to the game. It's a 3 human player game set up in team mode. So all the AI is allied against us. I have logged to HOST and changed the offending AI to human control. Logging into that player, I checked the empire screed, and there is no trade going on between the AI and Dethgod, and the Treaty grid shows WAR for both spots. So at the moment it does not look to be an obvious "diplomacy" bug.

I think what I'll do is give orders for the AI players ships to leave Dethgods homeworld sector, while changing the treaty status back to none. After I clear him out, I'll reset him back to AI control. Do you think that doing this might fix the problem? I know it's hard to tell since the issue is obviously not quite as clear cut as it first looks, at least from looking at the AI player is concerned...

[douglas]

This is definitely a bug. From the sound of things, there are multiple places where your treaty status with the AI player is stored and the one that minefields check somehow got set to think you have a peaceful treaty with the AI. The only way to fix this is to establish a new and different non-friendly "treaty" and hope everything gets set right this time. If your treaty status is "None", then you can simply declare war. If the AI has already declared war, which it sounds like it has, the game host will have to force it to accept or propose a treaty. Try a "Non-Intercourse" treaty - it's the only non-war state other than None (which can never be returned to without completely losing contact with the player) that includes combat and minefield detonation against each other, so it will make certain the AI doesn't use the brief time under treaty to bypass a minefield or fleet somewhere.