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Fyron
May 24th, 2007, 11:52 PM
We should probably try to reach a consensus on the Neostandard for SE5 before too much more time passes. Would this be an acceptable set to most?

This would add 6 unique hulls to the stock set. Keep in mind that the stock game already has a lot of "neostandard" type models called for, but not in general use. They add about 15 extra possible models shipset authors can already add to their sets and see used in the stock game. This means that shipset authors essentially have a possible 21 extra models to make above the basic list for stock se5.

Warships

+ Corvette/Scout (sub-frigate sized ship, name up in the air)
+ Juggernaut (between dreadnought and baseship)
+ Worldship (generally spheroid, for the death stars et all)

Baseship is already called for by stock, but not used. A note about this would be good.

Carriers

Light and Heavy already called for by stock, so I don't think we really need any more.

Civilian Ships

+ Resource Ship (not positive on this one's general utility, but many seem to like it)

Small/Large freighters already called for by stock.

Bases

+ Battle Station (base to go between space station and starbase, as in all previous SE versions)

Units

+ Infantry (non-mechanized troop unit)

Small/Medium/Large unit versions of all units are already called for as primary models/layouts, though generally not used in stock shipsets, so we don't need to include those as part of the neostandard. A note about them would suffice.

Atrocities
May 25th, 2007, 12:22 AM
Looks very good to me. Not that my opinion matters at all. But still looks good.

narf poit chez BOOM
May 25th, 2007, 02:55 AM
Call the corvette/scout an escort. No need for a new name.

Wade
May 25th, 2007, 03:24 AM
My semi-lurking opinion is to call the Corvette a Corvette.

I like this very organized, elegant yet simple Neostandard. It does not stray too far from stock.

Randallw
May 25th, 2007, 06:11 AM
I like my collection of Starfire books so much I read them all every few months. I just finished the bug war pair and there were a few classes I am interested in seeing. From what I can figure the classes are as follows

Heavy Cruisers.

Super-Dreadnoughts. Bigger than a battleship but smaller than,

Monitor. These end up the biggest ships there are but I don't think they would be worldships.

other ships, such as escort carriers, are just another name for what I feel already exist.

of course this all may be irrelevant. I now remember mention that 100 Kt ships were huge, which is smaller than a SE frigate.

AstralWanderer
May 25th, 2007, 09:24 AM
Imperator Fyron said:
+ Worldship (generally spheroid, for the death stars et all)

This would be a nice addition, particularly if its maximum size was limited only by the resources of the owning empire. Would it be possible to allow such a class access to some of the planetary facilities (e.g. Base Space Yards, Solar Generators, Planetary Gravitational Shields) or have new ship components replicating such features limited to this class only?
Imperator Fyron said:
Light and Heavy already called for by stock, so I don't think we really need any more.

Adding a carrier large enough to include multiple space yards (so it can build its own fighters) might be useful. Heavy Carriers don't seem to have enough space to allow for this without severe compromises elsewhere (unless their maximum TL is greatly increased). This role could be handled by an expanded Baseship though.
Imperator Fyron said:
Small/Large freighters already called for by stock.

Again, a larger freighter capable of building its own drones, mines, troops may be worthwhile.
Imperator Fyron said:
+ Battle Station (base to go between space station and starbase, as in all previous SE versions)

There is a bit of a gap between the SS and SB but this could be closed up by increasing the maximum tonnage per TL and max TL. This would allow for the Battle Station to be a supersized SB instead. The reason for this is to allow for larger bases to compensate for their lack of mobility (both a tactical and strategic weakness) and to provide something to fill the gap between the SB and the Worldship above.

There is a certain "large ship fetish" in my suggestions above, but it seems strange that a game allowing the construction of Ringworlds (Larry Niven's weighing in at 2.1 x 10^27 kg) and Dyson Spheres has such comparatively low limits on ship tonnage.

Tim_Ward
May 25th, 2007, 10:27 AM
If I had my way, destroyer, battleship, corvette et al would be design types and hull sizes would be called something else.

But for what it's worth, I endorse corvette over escort.

Santiago
May 25th, 2007, 11:16 AM
Corvette ftw http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Fyron
May 25th, 2007, 01:45 PM
AstralWanderer:
This is all about relative scale, not about stock hull sizes. Nothing stops a mod from making heavy carriers bigger so they can mount multiple space yards (or adding a "small" SY designed for such unit building roles). We don't necessarily need to force modders to make a (probably non-distinctive) 4th carrier size for that.

The problem with adding "massive" versions of a basic hull type is that with SE4 shipsets, it almost always ended up as just a larger picture of the same thing, maybe with very minor detail modifications. When there are already 3 model types for it, a 4th doesn't necessarily add much variety, but it adds more work for modelers. Worldships are distinctive. Scout/corvette adds a possibility for a small, less combat-oriented military hull design. Juggernaut is certainly less distinctive than the other proposals, but many people seemed to want a large warship hull possibility. Unlike a "massive carrier," it probably has more possibility for uniqueness.

IMO, the name "battlestation" has to go between space station and starbase for purposes of continuity (all previous SE games had them in that order). Again, its just a matter of scale. Make your mod have the battlestations at the stock starbase size, and have starbases be even bigger. Nothing forces a modder to use stock hull sizes for anything; he just needs to maintain the relative size ordering for sensible play.

AdmiralMartin
May 25th, 2007, 02:49 PM
Uh, Battlecruiser? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Tim_Ward
May 25th, 2007, 03:38 PM
You need hull sizes like Juggernaut to provide a continuity between a baseship (somewhat larger than a dread) and a worldship (absolutely enormous).

Combat Wombat
May 25th, 2007, 06:48 PM
AdmiralMartin said:
Uh, Battlecruiser? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif



I second the battlecruiser and I think another type of colony ship might be a good idea.

narf poit chez BOOM
May 25th, 2007, 10:38 PM
Aww, nobody likes Escort.

Eh. Corvette does sound neater anyway, even if it doesn't maintain continueity.

se5a
May 28th, 2007, 08:44 AM
I vote escort!

not that it matters, it's just model names anyway.

narf poit chez BOOM
May 28th, 2007, 07:33 PM
Everything matters; there is only different levels of relavency.

Fyron
May 30th, 2007, 01:39 PM
Vote: Large colony ship or resource ship?

I think only one mod, maybe 2, actually used the SE4 resource ship. It didn't seem to have much utility.

Also, should we specify that the small fighter should be interceptor-like, and the large fighter should be bomber-like? The regular fighter would be something in-between. This would create a bit more uniformity, and would provide the opportunity for modders to have different fighter hull types without needing to specify extra models that aren't part of the neostandard.

Kana
May 30th, 2007, 02:41 PM
Why have resource ships, when you have freighters?

Ed Kolis
May 30th, 2007, 03:02 PM
I vote large colony ship. I guess Kana's right, freighters are useful as resource ships, but it would be nice to have another size of colony ship.

AdmiralMartin
May 30th, 2007, 03:03 PM
I vote for escort.

Kana
May 30th, 2007, 05:03 PM
I vote Corvette. An Escort is more of a type of duty than a class of ship.

Leternel
May 30th, 2007, 05:27 PM
I vote for Corvette (or zodiak if you want to insiste on small size)
I vote for Large Colony Ship, because resources ship as no really interest, if you don't use the robo-mining

narf poit chez BOOM
May 30th, 2007, 08:34 PM
Freighters can be colony ships or resource ships, but doesn't sound that interesting.

Santiago
May 30th, 2007, 09:01 PM
Large colony ship

se5a
May 31st, 2007, 04:27 AM
a corvette is smaller than an escort.

Fyron
June 22nd, 2007, 08:46 PM
Vote:
Battle Cruiser or Juggernaut?

Battle Cruiser would go between Cruiser and Battleship, whereas Juggernaut would be the biggest warship size, between Dreadnought and Baseship (which is more of a cross between a starbase and a ship).

Combat Wombat
June 22nd, 2007, 08:48 PM
battlecruiser

Santiago
June 22nd, 2007, 10:48 PM
Battlecruiser

narf poit chez BOOM
June 22nd, 2007, 11:27 PM
And!

Kamog
June 23rd, 2007, 01:18 AM
Battle Cruiser.

Kana
June 23rd, 2007, 02:20 AM
Battlecruiser

Wade
June 24th, 2007, 11:27 PM
Imperator Fyron said:
Vote:
Battle Cruiser or Juggernaut?

Battle Cruiser would go between Cruiser and Battleship, whereas Juggernaut would be the biggest warship size, between Dreadnought and Baseship (which is more of a cross between a starbase and a ship).



Why are people voting "Battle Cruiser"?

Why even ask for this vote?

"...whereas Juggernaut would be the biggest warship size, between Dreadnought and Baseship (which is more of a cross between a starbase and a ship)."

Fyron
June 25th, 2007, 12:29 AM
Because it is a community standard, not a Fyron standard...

Suicide Junkie
June 25th, 2007, 12:31 AM
Mainly because size is all relative. You only get one "biggest ship hull", and the final number of ship hulls is the same.

It all comes down to the popularity of the name itself.
And we all like our SE3/4 battlecruisers.

Fyron
June 25th, 2007, 12:59 AM
There is more to it than that; a "battle cruiser" will tend to look like a cruiser, and a "juggernaut" will tend to look like a dreadnought. Where the hull fits in the size line matters as far as what the models end up looking like.

Timstone
June 25th, 2007, 12:27 PM
Fyron:
Maybe you could post the entire string of shipnames according to tonnage? I kind of lost track... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Fyron
June 25th, 2007, 01:01 PM
Corvette
Frigate
Destroyer
Light Cruiser
Cruiser
Battle Cruiser
Battleship
Dreadnought
Juggernaut
Baseship
Worldship

Kana
June 25th, 2007, 01:41 PM
Imperator Fyron said:
There is more to it than that; a "battle cruiser" will tend to look like a cruiser, and a "juggernaut" will tend to look like a dreadnought. Where the hull fits in the size line matters as far as what the models end up looking like.



A BC is a Battleship with less armor. Which means its faster than BB's and as fast/armored as a CA.

Fyron
June 25th, 2007, 02:57 PM
In most SE4 shipsets, the battle cruiser tends to look like a big cruiser, rather than a small battleship.

Suicide Junkie
June 25th, 2007, 08:55 PM
Imperator Fyron said:
...a "battle cruiser" will tend to look like a cruiser, and a "juggernaut" will tend to look like a dreadnought....

Only if the shipset designer is short of ideas http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Fyron
June 26th, 2007, 02:48 AM
Which describes 80+ percent of shipsets that have been made for SE4...

Timstone
June 26th, 2007, 10:26 AM
Well, I vote for the list you posted Fyron. Looks good to me.

Fyron
June 26th, 2007, 03:45 PM
Looks like Battle Cruiser won out over Juggernaut. I wrote up a spec for the SE5 Neostandard:

http://wiki.spaceempires.net/index.php/Neostandard_%28SEV%29

Kana
June 26th, 2007, 04:10 PM
Imperator Fyron said:
In most SE4 shipsets, the battle cruiser tends to look like a big cruiser, rather than a small battleship.



True

I was just stating that historically a BC was bascially armored like a cruiser, faster than a BB, but had BB size guns.

Fyron
June 26th, 2007, 04:14 PM
I set the typical alternate for the Battle Cruiser to be Battleship instead of Cruiser. Sound good? Maybe it will encourage people to make it more Battleship like. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Ed Kolis
June 26th, 2007, 08:35 PM
Kana said:
I was just stating that historically a BC was bascially armored like a cruiser, faster than a BB, but had BB size guns.



That just made me laugh - a cruiser armed with BB guns! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif
"Yeah, we're blockading this port, and if you don't surrender we're going to... umm... perforate your sails! Yeah! Never mind the fact that warships haven't had sails for centuries..."

narf poit chez BOOM
June 26th, 2007, 09:56 PM
Hey, a cruiser-sized BB gun would be massive!

Kana
June 26th, 2007, 09:58 PM
Well I'm glad I brought a smile to everyones day. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif