Any One Still Playing This Game?

[Atrocities]

Just wanted to know if anyone still plays this game or not. I kinda have grown out of playing it but still find that I am constantly thinking about it.

It has been nearly seven years now since I first started playing, (the demo) and believe it or not, that is longer than I held my last three jobs.

I don't play SE V at all any more either. Just doesn't appeal to my interest any more. I find that I would rather play SE IV over SE V any day of the week. Probably because I like what SE IV offers over SE V.

The difference between playing GalCiv or SE IV, SE IV wins out each time. Same thing with SE V. SE IV is just a better fit for me when I elect to play.

It wasn't too long ago that I had considered removing SE IV from my computer, all of the support stuff, and all of the DOGA files. But thankfully I opted to just move the extra files to a back up disk and keep the game. I did however drop almost all of the mods. Sorry guys, I just don't play the game enough to warrant the wasted space on a limited sized hard drive. I did save them to disk though.

I have found that SE IV is a lot easier to play than most other 4x games, including SE V, and I think that is why it might still appeal to many.

So do you still play or not?

[Randallw]

Well I am in a few games on PBW but none of them have any activity. One hasn't done a thing for a year (I'm secretly waiting for the 3 other players to quit so I can announce myself winner by default http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif). I can't say the players in them have lost interest just that some people went away and the games sort of wound down. Some time ago I stopped joining new SEIV games so I could devote myself to SEV when it came out. I don't seem to have much of a nostalgic personality so it was all, great a new version of SE with better graphics, forget the old version. Mind you there doesn't seem to be all that many available games of SEV on PBW, although that is mostly as I only look for balance mod games. I simply don't like needing 10 levels of ship yard to build orbital space yards.

[Gandalf Parker]

I still play it.
But I am surprised that I have not found anything to replace it. GalCiv is wonderful but just doesnt have replay value for me. SEV still cant seem to grab my attention but if it ever gets up to huge galaxies with hundreds of races then it might. I still play Stars! sometimes.

VGA Planets 4 has such great hopes. Especially for anyone who likes their game to have more features than they will ever be able to get a good grasp on. But the beta keeps going in the direction of the already-expert multiplayer users. I pre-purchased a copy in 2001 which Im still waiting for. He needs to get a good publisher to make him finish the AI and do some decent documentation so it can finally release.

I still check out every space game that promises huge galaxies and decent AI. I even freely give them my ideas for unlimited galactic space with small database.

Gandalf Parker

[Glyn]

I still play SEiv, but not as often as I once did. I have SEv, but I don't play it (just not fun.)

If I had time, I would sit down and develop my own space 4X game, cause it doesn't look like anyone else is doing it.

[GeorgiaBoy]

Oh yeah! Right now, I am working on a huge galaxy map which incorporates my planets mod...

GB

P.S. Glad to hear from you, AT.

[Arralen]

I'm playing - most to least:

Dominions 3
FAangband
SE IV
AoWSM
SacredUW, D2, Patrizier II gold, Port Royale, WinSPWW/SPWAW/WinSPMBT

.. this may change as soon as I find that crate full of CDs again .. might add e.g. Transport Tycoon Deluxe [Fan-Patched], Railroad Tycoon ...

EDIT:
OS: It's a shame that Stars! Supernova died due to publisher ... issues ...

[Fyron]

Just look at the game list on PBW to see that yes, people are still playing this game...

[Suicide Junkie]

I may need a replacement player for the Minbari in the "Carrier Battles - B5ism" game on PBW.

The game utilizes my FTL map for hyperspace fun, and there are four players including EA, Narn, Centauri and Minbari.
Its going nicely, but for ZeroAdunn dissappearing.

[Black_Knyght]

I still play almost religiously. In fact, I've even managed to get several friends involved and get them into it heavily. All it cost was a couple of custom-made ship sets (LOL). I wish I could release them, but they want to be the "exclusive" (?-LOL) users of them. Go Figure.

I love SEIV, and I may well be releasing a new shipset for it soon, if anyone is intersted in one still.

I've tried SEV, and given it several chances. I just cannot get into it the same way for some reason. I guess SEIV is as far as I'm going on this road...

[GeorgiaBoy]

BK,

Will it be the Krenim Imperium?

GB

[Makinus]

Of course i still play!

I occasionally play some other games, but 90% of the time i either play SEIV or Baldur´s Gate 2, two classics that simply don´t age for me...

In fact, i´m in the middle of a medium game with slow research (10 times slower research production) and small AI bonus using TDM, where i´m at war against 3 AIs and allied with 1 other, and i still need to meet the other 15 AIs in the game (well, 14, as 1 appear to have been eliminated before i even meet it)

My copy of SEV finally arrived last week, but i played a few turns and got tired of the long processing times, so i stored it for when i have a better computer (at least 2 more years since i need to finish the payments of my new house first).

BTW: i´m with a 1.73Ghz processor (forgot the brand now), with 512MB Ram and a 256mb video card and a 7200rpm HD running WinXP Pro, what i should do to reduce turn processing times (both in SEIV and SEV)? Buy more ram or a better videocard?

[Q]

I do still play SE IV although at the moment less than I thought I would.
I like very much the new combat emgine of SE V, but when the still numerous bugs or limitations frustrate me I return to SE IV. In the end the quality of the AI will decide if I play more SE IV or SE V.
SE IV is a game I modded to my likings and I am not sure that I will learn to do this for SE V, especially if it involves the AI.

[Gandalf Parker]

To be fair, if you compare SEIV to SEV then you need to do it using the vanilla clean-install version of SEIV. I actually did play a fresh install recently and personally I do think I enjoyed it more (I definetly played it longer) than my copy of SEV.

I suspect that I will not be thrilled with SEV anyway but I withhold my final judgement until I can play it as the same game I have in SEIV.

[Fyron]

Video cards have nothing to do with processing times, since there is no rendering going on. RAM will only help if you notice it begin maxed out in the task manager, with excessive page file usage (enable the virtual memory column to see the total memory the app is using). The surest way is a new CPU.

[Black_Knyght]

GeorgiaBoy said:
BK,

Will it be the Krenim Imperium?

GB




LOL - I didn't know there was any interest in that set still. If so, I can finish it.

[GeorgiaBoy]

BK,

Oh yeah, I've 'lurked' through many posts before signing up. Problem is that, there is limited Krenim material out there... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

GB

[Black_Knyght]

It wouldn't be too hard to extroplate something, or even just "Keep within a theme"

[Fyron]

Its cruel to post previews and never finish the set. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Atrocities]

Its cruel to want to make mod for a game that is rapidly becoming a toaster disc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

Well if SEIV isnt handed to someone else, then surely there is a replacement out there someplace

[GeorgiaBoy]

Maybe a little OT, but here goes...

I for one love gameplay over graphics. I was dismayed when video cards introduced '3d' graphics, as they would chew up more CPU. Developers dedicated more code to graphics and gameplay was sacrificed on the mass-market altar 'eye-candy'. Don't get me wrong, beautiful graphics are great, but the games I play over and over again tend to have (by today's bleeding edge) dated graphics...SE IV, (Sid Meier's) Gettysburg, MOO, Civ 3, HoI II, Space Horse, etc...

A BIG thanks to Shrapnel which values gameplay!

GB

[Fyron]

Atrocities said:
Its cruel to want to make mod for a game that is rapidly becoming a toaster disc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif


Which isn't SE4.

[Gandalf Parker]

I note that games such as Stars!, Master of Magic, Dominions, SEIV are still on my machine after years of play. For me I think its...
A) extensive setup choices in start position
B) extensive exploration (large map)
C) able to play against many AI's at once
D) moddability using easily avaiable and easy to use formats (such as ascii text, bmp, wav)
Probably about in that order. Besides being a decent game to play of course.

I note that SEIV didnt have most of that when it came out. But it does now because of players. Im hoping SEV will someday have them also but I think the format changes did more harm than good in that area.

[Possum]

Oh yes, SEIV is still going strong!

[Parasite]

I was able to get through three screens of the SEV tutorial. I just can't take the 1 FPS refresh rate.

I am in one SEIV game having slowed down a lot for RL. But am about to get more into it. Still the best game I know out there.

[Ludd]

Yes. Still playing.

[Kana]

Well those of you still playing, and need something new to try we are only on turn one of the PBCIV game.

Info at the links below:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB23&Number=518812

http://www.spaceempires.net/home/ftopict-2532.html

http://www.spaceempires.net/home/forum-c13.html

[StarShadow]

Definately still playing!

[TurinTurambar]

Was recently "still playing", but got to turn 165 and the 'puter crashed briefly. No big deal there, but I found out I hadn't saved the game since 132.

Doh!
TT

[Black_Knyght]

Still playing, and ALWAYS will be....

[capnq]

TurinTurambar said: I hadn't saved the game since 132.

The only time I don't turn on "autosave every turn" is if I'm playing multiple solo games from the same Savegame folder. When I start a second game, I set it to autosave every second turn, and so on down the list of options.

[Gandalf Parker]

Well I must admit that I let SpaceEmpires.info expire. I just never quite got interested, and no one I offered a hosting-home to seemed to do anything. Not that there was ever a real need for it with other domains doing such a good job. The domains for Dominions (2 qnd 3), and Shadowdale MUD, and Shazzys Shard (ultima online free server), are still keeping my games server active.

[Black_Knyght]

Imperator Fyron said:
Its cruel to post previews and never finish the set. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif


Crueler still to have a lying, cheating ex' trash and delete all your hard work, too!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif

[Possum]

ouch

This is a Bachelor Moment. One of those times when I'm glad I've never been married.

Back on the main topic, my PBW game (thanks capnq & geo!) with capnq, kaspar, kotau, and glyn is roaring along. We are currently on turn 96.

Nivek, who originally owned this game, did the setup with some very unusual (for PBW) parameters.

All player planets are NOT the same size, WP's can appear anywhere in the system, there were neutrals, and I think random events are on!

So, the neuts, except the Eee, have all been crushed. The alliances are shaking out - Roman/Federation alliance versus the Space Monkey/Space Dolphin/Mi-Go Triumvirate.

Things are very exciting at the moment.

The Romans have a fleet of 9 Dreadnoughts tearing up my border worlds right now, (I'm the Space Monkeys) and I don't have anything to stop them with.

On the other hand, I have a fleet of 7 Battlecruisers and 9 Battleships preparing to attack what looks like one of the Federation homeworlds.

So, yeah, we're still playing SEIV, and having a very good time with it, thank you very much http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

capnq said:

TurinTurambar said: I hadn't saved the game since 132.

The only time I don't turn on "autosave every turn" is if I'm playing multiple solo games from the same Savegame folder. When I start a second game, I set it to autosave every second turn, and so on down the list of options.

Simultaneous turn hotseat games work great for that. No need to worry about saving at all.

[AdmiralMartin]

I still play. Unfortunately, I never got past the 70 turn mark because of my comp http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Fyron]

What does your computer have to do with turn 70 mark? SE4 has mind-bogglingly low system requirements; sure it might start taking a while to process turns, but they will process.

[Suicide Junkie]

I'm actually playing my AAR game on my 166mhz laptop (with 48 megs of ram!)

Gives me time to write part of the report while the turn processes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[TurinTurambar]

Dude.... 11,000 posts for SJ.

*/me hands SJ a cookie

TT

[Possum]

More like an Ace bandage, for the carpal tunnel he got from all that typing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Xrati]

Playing UFO-ET (X-Com based game) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Possum]

Ohhh! Did they ever get that thing working? Last I saw, about a year ago, it wasn't even in beta yet.

Give us an url!

[Xrati]

Possum, You can buy the game at Matrix Games (or other software sales): http://www.matrixgames.com/games/game.asp?gid=342
The first and only patch (so far):
http://www.ufo-extraterrestrials.com/
The game is very tough with the original units. There is a great mod for it here (Ver. 3.12):
http://ufo-scene.com/plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?1576
It's some good work and he's still working on it. Bman is the AT of the UFO-ET crowd.

[JAFisher44]

I am still playing SE4. I bought SE5 but I just can't get into it. Between the fact that combat is real time, and the fact that it didn't live up to my expectations, I find it hard to motivate myself to learn to play it. I love SE4. I love the community. I love starting, but never finishing, shipsets. I don't think I will ever stop loving this game. Really, I wish that there was some way we could get access to the code so that some of the things which are hard-wired could be changed. Oh, well. Still love the game.

[Xrati]

JA, I also agree with you. I tried the SEV demo and never finished playing it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif I was disappointed with the game and I too enjoy SEIV. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif The work that people like AT, Fyron, SJ and many more, have done on this game is what makes it so good. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif This board has also been very supportive of anyone who ever came here looking for answers to any problem. Not just with the game but also other computer problems and even some personnel projects that have come up over the years. I don’t post much, but I still come here to see who’s still around. It is sort of an extended family here.

[Atrocities]

I firmly believe that more people still play SE IV than there are playing SE V.

[Captain Kwok]

I doubt that.

[Makinus]

i don´t know about others, but i have both games now and i play SEIV more than SEV (i hardly play SEV, just bought it, played a half a dozen times with the balance mod, and decided SEIV is more my style).

Maybe with the most recent balance mod SEV is more fun (the last one i played was 4 or 5 versions before the one available now).... ill try it this weekend again...

[Fyron]

Maybe if you ignore the large number of people on the official spaceempires5.com forums, you could come to that conclusion.. Sure there are a lot of old-time fans that prefer se4 to se5, but that doesn't apply to everyone, and certainly not for all the new people...

[Atrocities]

Ok so SE IV is dead because no one on the SE V official site plays it. Hell that is a great indicator. Has it occurred to any one that perhaps most people who play SE IV that don't play SE V have no use for the SE V site thusly they are not registered there or simply choose not to post if they are? (IE Me.)

SE V is a fine game, and I would recommend it to any 4x gamer, after I have recommended SE IV to them.

[Atrocities]

Sure there are a lot of old-time fans that prefer se4 to se5



I take it, because someone likes se4 over se5, that the only excuse for that fopa would be that they are an old-time fan? People discover SE IV and V everyday and not everyone is into SE V head or heals.

All because some of us have decided that SE V isn't for us shouldn't mandate that we be marginalized as "old-time fans" because that would be a totally unfair characterization.

Some people just prefer SE IV over SE V. Thats to say that some people like Civ 3 over Civ 4. (Shudder) It isn't about being an old-time fan boy, its about personal preferences.

It has nothing to do with being a fan of one game over the other.

[Suicide Junkie]

Which isn't to say that just because we like SE4 dosen't mean we aren't old timers... a decade is certainly ancient in Internet time.

[Fyron]

Atrocities said:
Ok so SE IV is dead because no one on the SE V official site plays it.

Nobody said anything of the sort... All anyone has said is that they doubt that there are more people playing SE4 than SE5 overall. Retail tends to bring in a lot more customers in a short period of time than Internet sales, afterall... That doesn't imply that SE4 is dead, and it doesn't imply that there isn't anyone new to the series that winds up preferring SE4...

Atrocities said:
"...marginalized as "old-time fans" because that would be a totally unfair characterization. "

...what? Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed today? There was no "marginalization" implied or expressed in my post. I don't see how "old-time fans" can be construed as a negative term... It is merely a statement as to the length of time one has been playing the game(s). I fit under that category. Does that mean I was trying to marginalize myself?

Atrocities said:
I take, it because someone likes se4 over se5, that the only excuse for that fopa would be that they are an old-time fan?

What thread are you reading, exactly?

[Atrocities]

Fyron old boy, I was editorializing. No need to go postal on my old fan boy arse. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif


Atrocities Said:
I take it,

.

One doesn't need to be an old-time fan to enjoy the game and no one should be labeled as such all because they do enjoy the game. I am concerned that many SE V players look down upon SE IV players as being "old-time fans." I just wanted to make the point that one doesn't have to be an old-time fan to enjoy the game. Thats all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Q]

I don't see "old-time fan" as negative designation. In fact I would consider it as a compliment for myself!
I was very sceptical at the beginning about SE V, but more and more I began to like it and now I cherish the many improvements compared to SE IV. Therefore I play more SE V even if it is still not as perfected as SE IV.
If only I could motivate Atrocities to adapt his 1001 races to SE V. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Atrocities]

Hey Q, I tried to adopt some sets to SE V and just gave up out of shier frustration. I did however successfully introduce three star trek sets based off of SFC I, II, and III models, but even those no longer work in SE V. Sadly it is probably only a minor fix but frankly I am just not motivated enough to even consider trying to figure it out at this point.

[StarShadow]

Personally I still prefer SMAC/X over both Civ3 and IV...

[Fyron]

Q said:
"I don't see "old-time fan" as negative designation. In fact I would consider it as a compliment for myself!"

Exactly! Its not derogatory in any way.

AT:
I never said you _had_ to be a fan of the series for some time to enjoy SE4... please stop putting words in my mouth.

[capnq]

StarShadow said: Personally I still prefer SMAC/X over both Civ3 and IV...

I would like to second this, but I haven't played Civ3 or Civ4, so I can't really judge. But my impression from skimming the Civ3 manual was that it looked like a step backward. SMAC/X is definitely the best Civ-category game I have played. (Some people might argue that the Civ series is part of the 4X category, but it feels like a separate category to me.)

[Atrocities]

Fyron - "I never said you _had_ to be a fan of the series for some time to enjoy SE4... please stop putting words in my mouth."

I never intended to.

[Fyron]

Civ3 was definitely a huge step backwards, even from Civ2 (plus expansions). It was more like Civ1.5. The true Civ3 was the Call to Power game... Civ4 has gone in somewhat of a different direction though. A few of the features of SMAC (and the Call to Power games) made their way into Civ4, but overall its gone in a much different direction than the older titles.

[Xrati]

I agree with AT on the fact that he, along with many other talented people put A LOT of hours in making ship sets and heavy modding. Then SEV comes out and pulls a “Microsofty” and changes all the formats for the file types!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif Do you know how much really good work was left only to the SEIV game and not able to get into SEV without major modifications? It boggles my mind to think that work was ignored by the SEV version and that when SEVI comes out, will they pull another page from Gate’s book? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

[Captain Kwok]

To be fair, the only significant change was the addition of .x models for facilities and ships. The remainder of the required files are still more or less the same image files as before.

It's just unfortunate that most of the sets designed for SE:IV were done with programs that didn't lend themselves well to the format used for SE:V.

[Fyron]

That's rather alarmist, don't you think? SE4 invalidated all the SE3 shipsets too (which was good, because they were just a set of tiny icons anyways), as well ditching as the binary data file format in favor of plain text files (also good). There were several hundred shipsets made for SE3 that became useless for SE4... Should we decry that too? SE5 is just another evolution, with real models alongside the portraits, and formula-based data files. There wasn't anything that could be done to keep the static data file format around, without a huge amount of bug-prone code to try to shoe-horn it into the system. Same with the purely 2d nature of the shipsets... How do you advance the system with 3d and still support model-less sets? SE6 will almost without doubt use the same model format (and hopefully Aaron negotiated continued use of the models in future releases), and similar data files, perhaps with more functions or user-definable functions. I don't see anything "Microsofty" about it...

[Xrati]

Fyron, my point.
SE3 mod work - gone!
SE4 mod work - gone!
SE5 mod work - ???
As the game progressed so did the work being done on it. To lose all this hard work and effort without at least trying to incorporate it into your new system just doesn't seem fair. I know I have some ships on DoGA like many others do. You would think that being a 3D program they might have figured out how to use it in the newer release (SE5).
I just feel a better attempt to (at least) try to use current work could have been made.
Yes I'm aware of the image constraints on graphics of using DoGA models in the 3D engine. Things change and some things get left behind, but I still think it was a great loss of some really great work! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Fyron]

There are roughly 8 billion different formats for 3d models out there (far more than just Doga was used for SE4 shipsets), and it would be difficult to support all of them. It is far better overall to pick an industry standard, like the native DirectX model format. Something like 3ds would have worked, but would have raised the bar as far as actually making stuff for the game what with the whole $4000 modeling program and all.

Doga's format is not well suited for real time rendering in a game engine and probably should never be considered for such use. I'm not aware of any well-supported libraries for real time rendering either, unlike the more standardized formats (.x, 3ds). However, it is entirely possible to convert Doga models to .x format, and make use of them in SE5 (and even Starfury). They tend to be of rather high polygon count and need some reworking of texture info, but they can be made to work.

As far as I can tell, the only practical way to support Doga natively in the game would be to abandon all plans for 3d...

[Atrocities]

Doga models do work in SE V, in fact they work quite well. However it is the texture mapping of these models that has proven to be the problem.

[Xrati]

I appreciate the post Fyron. I know that you have been here on this board for a long time. I just read the early reports about modding SE5 and felt that it was “Start from Scratch”, but as you just explained there were some parts that made it through. Maybe I just miss the old discussions like this and feel that just a little more than a game was lost when they moved to SE5.

AT, that’s still a lot of work to re-texture all those ship sets that you did. You did a great job on them and many others out there, did too! I hope you decide to keep going on the STM and maybe someday they’ll come out with a program to reduce the polygon count for DoGA models. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

I think the general feel is still "Was the shift to higher level formats in SEV worth it?"

I know (as stupid as it seems to some of us) that sales are made and lost based on look and feel. There is a sizeable crowd which refuses to pay "new game prices" for games that look to them like its from a decade ago.

On the other hand, its not SEIV which impressed me. Try loading it and playing it vanilla from the CD. Feels like a demo with such a small galaxy and only 8 races. Its the SEIV as it become with player mods. Huge galaxies, many aditonal images, over 300 races, better AI, a great online signup site for multiplayer games, etc etc etc.

As far as I can see, the shift is still hanging up the modding. SEV is not becoming what SEIV is. I own both and Im still waiting for SEV to become what I consider playable. Now, whether or not the sales was able to prove the shift worth it I would love to know. Im often in discussions with other games developers. Also the shift from a great publicity/online-purchase/support publisher to a marketing/DD/buy-out publisher.

So far, if there is an SEVI Id like to see Aaron take the newly gained player base and pull it back to the old arrangment (altho I understand he has sold the ability to do that)

Gandalf Parker

[Xrati]

Gandalf, some of the best games I've ever played were low end graphics, BUT I played them into the wee hours of the night. Empire Deluxe was one of them along with games by Avalon Hill like Midway, Dreadnaughts and many others. They were good games and provoked an interest without glamour or glitz! SE4 was that type of game. The modding and patches made it that much better. I do not believe SE5 is in the same category as SE4. BUT it does have Glitz and Glamour!

[Fyron]

I think SE5 is in the same category... its got a graphics engine rivaling tech from 1998. The actual gameplay is more or less identical to SE4. Its just the clunky interface holding it back, for the most part. Games like GalCiv, Sword of the Stars, MOO3, have lots of glitz and glamor. SE5 is pretty basic in comparison (which is a good thing). There is a fair amount of mod work and discussion going on for the game, but much of it takes place on the official site these days, rather than here. :-\

[Xrati]

Fyron said:

"There is a fair amount of mod work and discussion going on for the game, but much of it takes place on the official site these days, rather than here. :-\ "



Maybe that's it Fyron, I just miss the activity here! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Injured.gif

[Atrocities]

The official site has a lot of traffic these days. I still like the format of this site over that of the official site and perhaps thats why I seldom if ever post on the official site. We all knew that this would happen as new people joined the ranks of SE fans that they would gravitate toward the official site thus taking along with them the more seasoned veterans of the game.

Some vets however just wanted to be top dawg at the new site so they pretty much said good bye to this site the moment that site opened. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Xrati]

You're right AT, some gratitude shown toward the site that actually helped make SE5 what it is by making a thread to Aaron, about what people wanted to see in the next version. While the faithful remain here at one of the best sites I've ever had the privilege of being on. I never had any problems getting help here and after a while I found myself in a position to help other. I http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/heart.gif this site!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[thorfrog]

I still play and mod my SEIV game. It's just a better game. I also play GalCiv2 alot. I just feel SEV is not a fun game.

[Fyron]

Atrocities said:
Some vets however just wanted to be top dawg at the new site so they pretty much said good bye to this site the moment that site opened. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Such unbounded pessimism...

[Atrocities]

No not really Fyron. I would say this was fact not my usual pessimism. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Atrocities]

One of the reason the official site has grown is because of the efforts and dedication of vets that once made this site a great place to be. Time marches on and the newness of an official site for SE was a long over due event.

[Combat Wombat]

Fyron said:
Atrocities said:
Some vets however just wanted to be top dawg at the new site so they pretty much said good bye to this site the moment that site opened. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Such unbounded pessimism...



I actually agree with AT on this one, we have seen multiple vets simply up and leave shrapnel to begin posting solely on se5.com for no reason that I can see other than to be the big man over there. I admit I would be over there too if the site layout didn't disgust me as much as se5's interface....

[Fyron]

Why do you guys assume some sort of egotism? Isn't a simpler explanation just that some people would prefer to use the official game forums? Or perhaps they went to the more active place?

[Captain Kwok]

I'd like to know who these alleged posters are because after frequenting both sites for a year, I have no clue who you might be referring to.

[Gandalf Parker]

Hey guys, dont knock it. If another does it then I might be able to post here.

[Xrati]

Isn't a simpler explanation just that some people would prefer to use the official game forums?


Good point Fyron, but remember old habits die-hard. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
It is hard to find anyone these days that has any loyalities to anything! It’s all about “What have you done for me lately” and a very quickly changing world that some people feel they will miss something if they don’t have the latest and greatest. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
I still come here quite a lot and read, sometimes I even post! I enjoy being one of those who still come here and contribute. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[Intimidator]

Yep, still playing almost every day.

(cant't play SEV for long, getting bored and iritaded within 30 turns)

[Suicide Junkie]

GP:
Heh, you seem to be posting here just fine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The official 'official' forums do have drawbacks.
The unofficial 'official' forums do have benefits.

We just need to keep it realistic.

[Gandalf Parker]

I meant post real questions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Xrati]

The support for this site still continues. I think the new site can safely say that it received its roots here. As far as SE4 vs SE5 goes, it's a matter of personal preference! I don’t feel that it was made as “User Friendly” as it should have been. The ability to incorporate some of the work done here to the mods was good, but not without loss of some really good work. While change is supposed to be good, the ability to import more of the work done on SE4 would have made some sense, as it was one of the main reasons that people still played this game for so many years without a re-release of it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[Atrocities]

SE IV - fun but limited by its graphics.
SE V - fun but limited by its user interface. (not the graphics, the system itself)

The games are very similar in game play but just different enough to be consider different games.

[Suicide Junkie]

IMO, SE4's graphics are superior.
They are only as big as they need to be, don't block your view, and everything is always perfectly legible.

Snappy and responsive too, since the screen only has to be drawn once instead of continuously.

SE5's pictures are bigger and prettier, and the 3D models are nice, but they don't help gameplay at all, and often make it hard to see and read things.
Oh, how I long for 2D text overlays whenever I look at the system or combat views.

[Atrocities]

I really would like to see se iv update to use 3d images for top down views in combat and system movement. The images could then be scaled to size, and wouldn't look all fuzzy when they are displayed at an angle.

Having the planets rotating in seiv and six to 9 size stars would be awesome. And ring and sphere worlds that take up 9 to 16 sectors. AWESOME.

[Artaud]

Suicide Junkie said:
IMO, SE4's graphics are superior.
They are only as big as they need to be, don't block your view, and everything is always perfectly legible.

Snappy and responsive too, since the screen only has to be drawn once instead of continuously.

SE5's pictures are bigger and prettier, and the 3D models are nice, but they don't help gameplay at all, and often make it hard to see and read things.



I agree 10000%. I can easily see myself playing SE4 for another 10 years. It's just so immersive, so DEEP and yet so easy on my computer system.

I only played the SE5 demo, but the game as a whole turned me off. The things I remember most about it were 1) that the ships were way too small and that 2) when you entered a system, you could not see what was in the system. That just made no sense at all to me.

SE5 had an entirely different feel, IMHO, and was just not very appealing. I expected the game to have more of what I loved about SE4: more resources, more techs and more (and better) political interaction. Let me create my own government. Let me appoint and fire system governors, sector governors, cabinet ministers with abilities and flaws. Let me make realistic treaties with other civilizations.

Instead, it gave us...3D graphics. Yawn. Well, I'm 50 years old and I am just not impressed by eye candy. I want more game depth. I saw SE5 for sale for $10 a couple weeks ago and still could not bring myself to buy it.

But hey, lots of people like SE5 and more power to them. I hope a lot of copies were sold. Different strokes, as they say.

[Fyron]

The second complaint is easily modded out in the Data\Settings.txt file. Set these lines to TRUE (skip the ship and unit ones, naturally), and sight will be just like it is in SE4:

Can See Star At Any Distance := TRUE
Can See Planet At Any Distance := FALSE
...
Can See Asteroids At Any Distance := FALSE
Can See Storm At Any Distance := FALSE
Can See Warp Point At Any Distance := FALSE

The next 5 reference objects that do not actually exist in the game code, so can be ignored.

=0=

Note that SE5 is about more than just a graphical upgrade; there is a lot of candy for modders too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif The game still needs work to be more fun to play, though.

[Xrati]

The game still needs work to be more fun to play, though.



Fyron, I guess that's the point. When you already have a game that's fun to play. Why would you leave it for another that needs work? People expected a lot from SE5 and many were disappointed! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
I expected it to surpass SE4 and really kick some arse. Maybe my expectations were too high? But with the level of play that was achieved with SE4, there was no reason not to expect that.

[Fyron]

Given that the core mechanics are identical or refined (outside of combat, which is arguably vastly better than the shoddy initiative-less system of SE4), the exact same level of play exists in SE5. All that is SE4 is in there. Its mostly just the interface that could have been designed better...

[Urendi Maleldil]

True, but you have a hard time getting to the core mechanics because you're bogged down by the user interface. SE4 is much more accessible.

[Suicide Junkie]

Initiative mattering is only a problem when weapons outstrip defenses by too much.

And we don't have a fair and accurate real-time alternative yet.

[Artaud]

Urendi Maleldil said:
True, but you have a hard time getting to the core mechanics because you're bogged down by the user interface ...



That, to me, is a game-killer. I just don't want to spend time wading through a difficult interface just because there might be a good game underneath.

[capnq]

Suicide Junkie said: Initiative mattering is only a problem when weapons outstrip defenses by too much.

I beg to differ. I lost two major fleet engagements in my last SEIV PBW game because of the turn sequencing. Both battles were textbook examples of what's wrong with the way SEIV resolves combat.

[Suicide Junkie]

Which mod was that?

Stock-like Attack:Defense ratios fit my view of "too much"

[Fyron]

It doesn't matter what your Attack:Defense ratios are; initiative-less combat is a terrible, terrible thing in any case. You can partially ameliorate the other absurdities with very high defense compared to attack, but it doesn't change the inherent flaws in the type of combat engine SE4 uses. Having all of the objects owned by one side arbitrarily move and act before all of the objects owned by the other side, every turn, is just bad game design.

[capnq]

It was stock v1.95. The larger battle was 21 BCs with Seeking Parasite Vs and Combat Move 6, vs. 18 DNs with Phased-Polaron Beam IVs and Combat Move 4. The BCs could flood the DNs' Point Defense and stay out of range of the PPBs, except when the formations started the battle overlapping, or the BCs got hung up in a corner of the combat map.

[Suicide Junkie]

CQ, That sounds perfectly sensible to me...

The faster ships with longer range weapons stay out of range.
If they warp in, they get burned until they can open the distance (which happens to be quite a lot of distance with stock weapon ranges; too much IMO, relative to the combat map size).

Fyron:
Other absurdities?
Initiative issues do matter on the first turn of combat, if the ships start within range of direct fire weapons.

In the case of missile weapons both sides get to fire and both sides get to hit, no problem.

If direct fire weapons are being used at a warppoint, the defender fires first. A reasonable, but hardcoded, WP defense advantage.
If direct fire weapons are being used in deep space battles, neither side gets to fire first, since they are all out of range.
In that case it is pretty much random who fires first as they charge into weapons range.

In empirical testing, I have yet to see any non-warppoint battle where the order of play made a difference.
Even in warppoint battles, who fires first doesn't matter much.

In CB, initiative questions are completely swamped by ship designs, fleet composition, and most importantly; strategies and formations.



Contrasting with SE5, and putting aside issues of moddability (more flexibility in most things, losses of others such as multiplex and inf. range missiles)

We have a pro:
- Initiative is moot.
Two ships with equal range will both fire before either takes damage. Often, ships with 10-20 difference in range will fire before the other ship's damage is applied.

We have a big list of cons:
- Shipset choice affects combat results.
- Turn processing speed affects combat results.
- Rolled hits (such as PD) may not actually hit, depending on the timing. (Very noticeable at high time multipliers.)
- Ships can overlap into token stacks (at least as bad as any initiative issue, IMO)
- Combat processing is SLOW!


So, that's why I say SE4's combat system is superior.
Deterministic combat given the random number seed is an indicator of many good properties.

***

What if SE4 were upgraded to have a system which works exactly the same as currently, except that ability loss is deferred until the end of the turn.
IE: Some particular ship may be targetted by the first volleys. Everybody will see that it is destroyed, or has lost all weapons as currently and stop firing when appropriate. But retains its ability to fire back with previously undamaged weapons and movement points. At the end of both players' turn, the ship explodes or loses its weapons.

Note: Attackers would see the abilities being lost. Taking out the Self Destruct or Master Computer, ECM, and fancy armors for example.
The ship taking all this damage would be oblivious to the ability loss until the end of turn, and so would fire back with full Combat Sensors, talisman, weapons and multiplex abilities.

[Fyron]

Initiative matters on every turn of combat (especially if you do it right and give each ship a randomizing factor every turn)...

The overall order of play isn't what is important; what matters is who gets to fire all of his weapons first before taking any damage. Sure you can swing the pendulum in the other direction with short weapon ranges and high hit point amounts, but not everyone wants to play a slow(er)-paced slugfest.

"In CB, initiative questions are completely swamped by ship designs, fleet composition, and most importantly; strategies and formations."

All of which would be heavily tied into initiative if such existed. You'd probably want to include light, high initiative ships for some quick coup de grace action on wounded targets before they could act, and slow pounders for the main damage-dealing segment.

Most of the cons you speak of with SE5's real time combat are not inherent to such combat systems, but rather poor choices Aaron made (eg: explicit slot layouts, layouts based on shipset instead of mod by default (luckily fixable), the timer implementation, stacking...). Neither game is a very good example of its combat engine type.

"What if SE4 were upgraded to have a system which works exactly the same as currently, except that ability loss is deferred until the end of the turn."

Such would be better than the current system, but I think a good initiative system would be preferable.

[capnq]

Suicide Junkie said:
CQ, That sounds perfectly sensible to me...

The faster ships with longer range weapons stay out of range.
If they warp in, they get burned until they can open the distance (which happens to be quite a lot of distance with stock weapon ranges; too much IMO, relative to the combat map size).

Ah, my outrage was such that I forgot to mention the most critical detail: my missile BCs LOST that battle, badly. (I still have the notes I took to write an AAR for my allies.)

The battle started with the two fleets arranged in two crossing Wall formations in the SW corner. The DNs fired first, and killed 8 BCs in the first round before they could respond, and 2 more in each of the second and third rounds. By that point, the 9 surviving BCs had opened the range enough that the DNs couldn't hit them, and killed 2 DNs before getting caught in the NW corner and losing 5 more BCs. The 4 surviving BCs killed 1 more DN on their way to being caught in the NE corner, where they were all slaughtered.

With an initiative system, the casualties would not have been so lopsided. With an unbounded battle space, the BCs wouldn't have taken any casualties after the third round. If the fleets had entered the sector with a wider angle of separation and therefore not started in overlapping formations, the BCs would have won (as they did in every simulator run).

[Suicide Junkie]

Fy:
You seem to be comparing SE4's implementation against an imaginary optimal RTC system, rather than the available or even reasonable expectations of future implementations in SE5.

CQ:
My condolences. Stock weapon ranges and combat speeds aren't matched to the size of the combat map.

There is also a realism vs gameplay tradeoff there. I prefer having the steel cage matches where the edge comes into play only after the halfway point of battle (how long after, depending on how much of a distraction you deployed to the front lines)
Combat speeds of 2-4 are much better for the available map size.

Having missile ships just run away forever, lobbing missiles until they run out and head back to a planet for more... would be anti-fun IMO.
SE3 has missile launch range equal to a typical DF weapon range.
SE4 has longer missile ranges, but includes the no-retreat map.
SE5... uh oh!


PS:
That's what I'm talking about with weapons > defenses...
Instant vaporization of 8/21 ships in the first freaking round? You surely couldn't have been outnumbered by a huge margin if you thought you should have won.

You know, this reminds me of SE5's issue with the 128x processing rates.
If you have fights occur in huge time steps you lose a lot of fairness.

[Fyron]

Fixing the timer and stacking issues isn't a reasonable expectation?

And yeah, its certainly true that stock se4/5 have bad damage:defense ratios... but alas, Aaron seems to prefer ships being treated as unarmored medieval infantry instead of ships.

[Suicide Junkie]

I meant "realistic" there.

[Black_Knyght]

Artaud said:

Suicide Junkie said:
IMO, SE4's graphics are superior.
They are only as big as they need to be, don't block your view, and everything is always perfectly legible.

Snappy and responsive too, since the screen only has to be drawn once instead of continuously.

SE5's pictures are bigger and prettier, and the 3D models are nice, but they don't help gameplay at all, and often make it hard to see and read things.



I agree 10000%. I can easily see myself playing SE4 for another 10 years. It's just so immersive, so DEEP and yet so easy on my computer system.

I only played the SE5 demo, but the game as a whole turned me off. The things I remember most about it were 1) that the ships were way too small and that 2) when you entered a system, you could not see what was in the system. That just made no sense at all to me.

SE5 had an entirely different feel, IMHO, and was just not very appealing. I expected the game to have more of what I loved about SE4: more resources, more techs and more (and better) political interaction. Let me create my own government. Let me appoint and fire system governors, sector governors, cabinet ministers with abilities and flaws. Let me make realistic treaties with other civilizations.

Instead, it gave us...3D graphics. Yawn. Well, I'm 50 years old and I am just not impressed by eye candy. I want more game depth. I saw SE5 for sale for $10 a couple weeks ago and still could not bring myself to buy it.

But hey, lots of people like SE5 and more power to them. I hope a lot of copies were sold. Different strokes, as they say.



Gotta say, I agree here completely. I keep trying SE5, keep giving it a chance, and keep ending up regretting the money spent.

I had hoped for more than a flashy 3D game. There are others that come across better if that's what I wanted. And of the things that did get improved in the latest incarnation of Space Empires, they get lost in a game that quickly becomes uninteresting and frustrating the more I play.

SE4 had a way of grabbing my attention and HOLDING it that SE5 just doesn't seem to have.

[Fyron]

Black_Knyght said:
I had hoped for more than a flashy 3D game.


Luckily, it is absolutely not a "flashy 3D game." Instead, its just as deep a strategy experience as SE4, if not deeper in some ways.

[Makinus]

There is not any way to create an "se4ish" interface for SE5? If the main problem is the interface (or even the 3d) thare is not any way to create an 2d interfae for it?

[Fyron]

The 3d rendering of system objects has nothing to do with the interface, which is still essentially static 2d (and can be entirely customized via bitmaps, unlike se4). I'm not sure if the Data\HUDSettings.txt file actually works, but it might be possible to create a more-sane button panel with it. AFAIK the button panel and some excessive confirmation dialogs (for general "clickiness") are the main issues left with the interface, other than possibly the ship design screen that we are stuck with. There are little things that could be done like double clicking on a sector with a planet automatically selecting (the first) planet in that sector, but those tend to be not unique to SE5 (could improve SE4 as well). The interface has come a long way since release.

[Atrocities]

Ya, what Fyron said. Well said.

[Xrati]

I think it may just be time to wait for SE6. Hopefully all the issues about initiative, defenses vs offenses and interface will all be addressed.

I think that the total number of people who play SE5 is less than the number who played SE4. I never went past the SE5 demo, but there are a lot of SE4 players who purchased SE5 because of SE4.

I know that this outlook at SE5 is not shared by all, but there are enough that agree to the point that they will not play SE5. That is a <font color="purple"> MAJOR LOSS </font> for the SE series! If the SE series is to continue you have to develop a game that is playable, mod-able and will keep you coming back for more.

[Captain Kwok]

It's nothing different than the SE:III players that never continued on to SE:IV etc.

[Artaud]

Fyron said:Luckily, it is absolutely not a "flashy 3D game." Instead, its just as deep a strategy experience as SE4, if not deeper in some ways.



As with many things, that a matter of opinion. When I played the demo of SEIV waaaaaaay back, I was completely sucked in. (The same way I was sucked in previously by Stars!, and before that by the original Reach for the Stars, and before THAT by Empire http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif)

SEV, I'm sorry to say, just did not make me even the slightest bit interested.

[Fyron]

Its fairly baseless to say that it is just a "flashy 3d game" (or little more than). "Flashy 3d game" connotes a lack of depth, a lack of solid game mechanics. These are things SE5 does not lack. The fact of SE5 being just as deep of a strategy game as SE4 is pretty hard to dispute in a supportable manner. Whether or not you are willing to weather its UI quirks to get to the gameplay is another matter entirely, and is where opinion on it being a fun experience comes into play.

Potential assertions of SE5's UI suffering _because_ it is a 3d game are rather speculative (I'd wager that its just more of Aaron not being good at designing UIs in the first place). Luckily, it is obvious that the game mechanics and the moddability suffered naught for the 3dness.

[Suicide Junkie]

Fyron said:
The 3d rendering of system objects has nothing to do with the interface, which is still essentially static 2d (and can be entirely customized via bitmaps, unlike se4).

Its the blurry 3D rendering of pixellated text and floaty banners that really make me sad. 2D overlays of sharp text would be golden.

That, and whatever loser convinced Aaron that SE5 needed more confirmation clicks instead of maintaining a slick command system.

[Xrati]

Whether or not you are willing to weather its UI quirks to get to the gameplay is another matter entirely,


Fyron, playability, as Artaud stated

SEV, I'm sorry to say, just did not make me even the slightest bit interested.



is what will be the ultimate gauging of the game. It just does not hold up well to it's predecessor (SE4)!!!

What you have is a game for modders, NOT PLAYERS. In the end it's the players who will purchase the game to PLAY! You just can't sit there and say that the game mods well, but it's hard to play. It's not going to sell product.

[Fyron]

That doesn't really invalidate anything I said, and I agree that the game is not as fun to play as SE4 (in spite of SE4's own mediocre UI). I was merely addressing the assertions of it being just a "flashy 3d game." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The UI has improved a lot over the last year, but still has issues that Aaron doesn't seem willing to address. Maybe we need to gather an actual succinct list of issues that contribute to playability issues, rather than just constantly bemoan its lack of fun-ness... Then, we can make a concerted effort to barrage him with specific, unified requests so he sees that there are indeed still some wide-spread problems. Here's a start:

1) Too many confirmation dialogs for orders. Perhaps add an "expert mode" option in Empire Options to skip all but the most important of these.
2) Blurry 3d rendered text names in system display should be replaced with crisp 2d text.
3) Revamp the bottom right button panel. Make a set of tab buttons at the top, rather than have some buttons within the panel randomly function as tabs.

[Black_Knyght]

Fyron said:
I agree that the game is not as fun to play as SE4 (in spite of SE4's own mediocre UI).



THAT was the gist of what I, and I think many others, have been trying to say.


I was merely addressing the assertions of it being just a "flashy 3d game." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



The point for me, in SEV being a "Flashy 3D game", is that more effort seems to have gone into the all new graphical appearance of the game, and the POTENTIAL moddability of it, rather than the interests of the "straight-out-of-the-box" player


Maybe we need to gather an actual succinct list of issues that contribute to playability issues, rather than just constantly bemoan its lack of fun-ness...



There's a VERY valid point. The number of playability issues and the lack of "fun-ness" is the killer for me.

When I first started playing SEIV, it grabbed and held my attention, and the improvements that arose over time just made it that much better. SEV just never had that "grab" that made SEIV so much fun. Straight off the street, SEIV turned out to be much more interesting and entertaining than anything delivered by SEV so far.

I never Beta-tested it, I have no vested interest in it's outcome, and I'm nobody community-wise. I'm just another average person, trying a new game based on the reputation of it's predecessor and finding it lacking.

[Atrocities]

Gentlemen Please. If your going to fight at least give advanced notice so we can sell tickets to the ball.

[Fyron]

What thread are you reading, Atrocities?

[Xrati]

I think what AT is saying is, that he feels 'left out' and that this thread should be on the Sci Fi channel and they should be selling tickets for it!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Fyron]

Surely you guys have more quantifiable issues with the game than those 3 things.

[Suicide Junkie]

The sliders/spinners from SE4 race setup. Far superior interface to use than a pile of checkboxes for +/-5%

Showing estimated time to completion on build queue items... NOT the time it would take if it were the only thing in the queue.
Throw in a small indication of how many resources have already been invested in the item too.

As an extension of #2:
Same deal with the flags. Make them 2D overlays, smaller, and pack them together so a sector with three races in it is understandable. A larger flag can be ok if there is only one race in the sector.

[Kana]

Bring back SE3 construction.

[Black_Knyght]

Atrocities said:
Gentlemen Please. If your going to fight at least give advanced notice so we can sell tickets to the ball.



Hmmmmm.............

Just to be clear here, I wasn't trying to "argue" a point, but rather simply state my point of view. I think everyone has a solid stance from their own perspective, and I just wanted to express mine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[Fyron]

Kana said:
"Bring back SE3 construction."

We have part of that already, since projects will maintain their built amount status if you move them down the queue (though sadly these amounts aren't actually listed for anything but the first item). The only thing missing is transferring them to another queue, which I'm not sure would be very feasible to introduce into the codebase at this point.

[Kana]

What I mean't about SE3 Construction, is that the ship is in space, in a partially built state, and each turn that it takes to build it, depends on the amount of components that can be added.

IE construction by component, not by resource value. Heck it would be even better, if it was by tonnage instead of even components.

[Xrati]

Fyron, on the three points, the key one being the "not having any fun" one... Esthetics aside, the game is just not enjoyable in the state that it currently is. It needs to be reworked to offer a better interface and that is the most important issue in playing a game! It needs to want a player, to looking forward to continue playing. The game lacks that appeal. SE4 had that appeal even before all the mods.

[Fyron]

It can't be reworked if we don't tell Aaron what is wrong with it specifically, though. What features make it unappealing? What changes would make such features better? It's not constructive to just say its unappealing. Aaron has made numerous changes and enhancements at specific request in the past, but he can't do much more without more feedback.

[Artaud]

I seem to recall that a great deal was said about SE5's appeal (for some) and lack of appeal (for others) around the time of its release. There were a lot of specifics back then.

SE5 is just a very different game with a very different feel.

This past weekend I almost downloaded the demo (again) with the idea of doing exactly what you suggest--coming up with a bunch of specifics. But I looked again at the screenshots and that was as far as it went.

With all due respect, I doubt that anything I personally could say would have any impact on any further development of SE5. I'm not an "insider." I was not a playtester. I've never created a mod for SE4. I *helped* create a race, and I've written some conversation and design name files, but that's it.

My assumption about SE5 when it came out and I played the demo was that Aaron just decided to take his game in a direction that I did not want to go. It's his product. He has the right to aim it at whatever section of the market he wants to.

I suggested features way back *before* SE5 came out. I was suggesting features for years. None of the things I wanted to see most in SE5 are there. Fair enough.

It may not be constructive to just say that the game is simply "unappealing." But who really--especially among us who were *not* playtesters to begin with--has the free time and the energy and the inclination to put together a detailed analysis of SE5 this far down the road?

What I would *love* to do is contribute toward the further development of some of the great mods for SE4.

[Fyron]

Being an insider is irrelevant. Aaron constantly implements things that take the beta testers by complete surprise, often from suggestions of totally random players.

You don't need that detailed of an analysis... Surely you can spare a few minutes typing up the things that annoyed you the most? You don't think SE5 development has stopped, do you? Its an ongoing process, just like SE4 was for years after release. There obviously won't be any radical changes like getting rid of slot layouts, but there are still lots of things that could be done...

[Atrocities]

I have been playing SE 5 since the last update and aside from an annoying crash bug, (Addressed thankfully in the next update) I have to say the game is growing on me all over again. I love SE IV and will continue to play it until I get the Star Wars mod done, after that I want to try and get into SE V modding. I have a really interesting idea for a new mod and feel that it is about time that I move on.

[Makinus]

In gratitude for the endless late nights playing SE4, i´ll try to analise what most annoy me in the SE5 interface....

First, just to make this clear, i´m pointing what annoy ME, you can agree or disagree with what i say at your hearts content, i don´t think my opinions are the absolute or even right...

Second, i´ll address my complaints mainly about the interface, since the "base game" of SE5 is mostly fine in my opinion, just the interface i think is clunky...

Third, this is only a preliminary analisis, i´ll add to it as i play along...

so, let´s go:

SEV Interface Analisis - Part 1:

1. Too much clickiness (does this word exists?)!, reduce confirmation dialogs, and, rearrange menus so the player needs less clicks to order what he want... i massively use shortcuts and even in this way i think there is too much clickines in SE5... SE4 was much less clickiness...

2. The ship design screen annoys me a lot... the 3 level ship design is completely useless gameplay wise, and the "ship schematics" also doens´t have any use since gameplay wise components are classified as Armor, External or Internal... i can´t notice the supposed "directional damage" implemented... maybe if you substitute it for only 3 "generic" fields of Armor, Internal and External components it would make more sense, or maybe an interface like SE4 but with 3 fields (Armor, Internal and External) instead of the single one that SE4 have. (i´m making sense?)

3. No problems with the hexagonal grid, but the top-view could be more streamlined... the main problem are the Flags... like a previous poster said...

4. More to come...

[Fyron]

For reference, the 3 decks were added because some shipsets have narrow profiles. This lead to low numbers of slots, which in some cases prevented having enough space to actually fill out the hull's tonnage. Slots weren't meant as such a limiting factor. We lost the battle to get rid of slot layout entirely... alas.

[Captain Kwok]

I think SE5 really needs a way to identify it's mouse shortcuts better. A lot of player's don't know there's a bunch of shortcuts for applying filters in lists/ship design via right click or shrinking icons etc.

My main remaining peeve with the SE5 interface is mainly with queue settings - such as sending ships to waypoints etc. Secondary peeve is the single line listing for items in the construction queues list.

Overall, there's a lot more useful and customizable info available in SE5 versus SE4. Although I suppose a way to save custom sorts on lists outside of a save game could be my third most wanted item.

Unfortunately the demo is only v1.25 and is missing out on a ton of interface elements that have been put in place since.

[Suicide Junkie]

Makinus said:
... i can´t notice the supposed "directional damage" implemented... maybe if you substitute it for only 3 "generic" fields of Armor, Internal and External components it would make more sense, or maybe an interface like SE4 but with 3 fields (Armor, Internal and External) instead of the single one that SE4 have. (i´m making sense?)

You would definitely notice the directionality of the damage if you were playing my Gritty Galaxy mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif That said, I've changed all the slots to just "External" since I think the magic wall distinctions are silly.

Having 3 lists would hopefully work just like SE3. Given a "to-hit size" stat, that system would work really well. (If the shot randomly picks an already-destroyed component, then it penetrates to the next layer down without having killed all of the previous layer)

[Kana]

Suicide Junkie said:

Makinus said:
... i can´t notice the supposed "directional damage" implemented... maybe if you substitute it for only 3 "generic" fields of Armor, Internal and External components it would make more sense, or maybe an interface like SE4 but with 3 fields (Armor, Internal and External) instead of the single one that SE4 have. (i´m making sense?)

You would definitely notice the directionality of the damage if you were playing my Gritty Galaxy mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif That said, I've changed all the slots to just "External" since I think the magic wall distinctions are silly.

Having 3 lists would hopefully work just like SE3. Given a "to-hit size" stat, that system would work really well. (If the shot randomly picks an already-destroyed component, then it penetrates to the next layer down without having killed all of the previous layer)



If it worked like it does in the table top SFB game, I would be all for how the slot layout works, or heck if it even worked like Starfury, with sectional shields and armor, I would like it more than it is now. Yet I would be completely satisfied with something similiar to SE3, and accept as easily what SE4 uses.

[Urendi Maleldil]

Fyron said:
We lost the battle to get rid of slot layout entirely... alas.



I still have no idea why Aaron was so set on having this cumbersome slot layout system. SE2's ship design system was the most elegant. The order in which components became damaged depended solely on the order in which they were added.

[Fyron]

That was a rather cludgy setup, IMO. The random selection of SE3/4 was much better. SE3 had the armor/outer/inner thing going, without the need for excessive slots.

[pathfinder]

I do at times,rarely these days.

Where oh where can I find the mod launcher. Been doing a search and just can't seem to locat it for d/l.

Never mind, found it.

[Possum]

Urendi Maleldil said:

Fyron said:
We lost the battle to get rid of slot layout entirely... alas.



I still have no idea why Aaron was so set on having this cumbersome slot layout system. SE2's ship design system was the most elegant. The order in which components became damaged depended solely on the order in which they were added.



That makes two of us. I still refuse to buy or play SE5; played the demo and hated it with a passion. I'm still having fun with SE4.

[Makinus]

Yep SEIV is, at least until now, a superior game strategy-wise compared with SEV... SEV have more graphical goodies, but i always prefer strategy against graphics...

I still do play occasionally Stars! versus the AI, and that game, graphicaly-wise, is as dry as a spreadsheet...

And about hardware requirements, SEIV runs in nearly everything, while SEV chugs slowly even in the most upped up systems...

[StarShadow]

In the last week I've played Stars! (I love that mystery trader), Moo2 and SE4. On the other hand I'll install/fire-up SE5 once every 3-4 months just to see if it's fun yet. I really REALLY wish Stars! Supernova hadn't been shelved by the publisher, I just know it would have been awesome.

[Ironmanbc]

So true I miss stars!

Why oh WHY did they NOT put it out, it had a good following but....

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[Fyron]

Makinus said:
"Yep SEIV is, at least until now, a superior game strategy-wise compared with SEV... SEV have more graphical goodies, but i always prefer strategy against graphics..."

Strategy-wise, SE5 is actually better than SE4. It has more depth in fleet strategy setup, it has more strategic options in weapon damage types (esp. for clever modders), the slot layout actually makes ship design more strategic due to directional damage (past the armor layer, anyways), etc., etc., etc. The downside is the cumbersome UI and such; the strategy is all there, buried underneath.

Makinus said:[/i]
"And about hardware requirements, SEIV runs in nearly everything, while SEV chugs slowly even in the most upped up systems..."

Only if you put Vista on them... SEV runs really well on my 5.5 year old P4 box, even with the ATI radeon 9600pro I used to have in it. Sure you can't run it well on 12 year old boxes, but your statement was rather hyperbolic.. You can quite easily build a ~$300 (or less, even) PC that will run SEV like a champ.

[Ironmanbc]

I have a P3 (1.4) system with an ATI 9200 Sapphire card (1gig memory)(Win XP Pro)

I can run se5 with no problems, I even run World of Warcraft(with high graphics on) a slowdown when entering a city with a lot of players on (I turn off shadows)

[StarShadow]

Ironmanbc said:
So true I miss stars!

Why oh WHY did they NOT put it out, it had a good following but....

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif




It was never released because the publisher (iirc Empire Interactive) decided it wanted to switch focus to sports games.

[Xrati]

I think Fyron hit it on the head when he said
Strategy-wise, SE5 is actually better than SE4. It has more depth in fleet strategy setup, it has more strategic options in weapon damage types (esp. for clever modders), the strategy is all there, buried underneath.


SE5 is a game for modders, not players...

[Artaud]

Xrati said:
I think Fyron hit it on the head when he said
Strategy-wise, SE5 is actually better than SE4. It has more depth in fleet strategy setup, it has more strategic options in weapon damage types (esp. for clever modders), the strategy is all there, buried underneath.


SE5 is a game for modders, not players...



...And since I'm not a modder, I guess SE5 is not for me.

Actually I would like to become a modder...but of SE4. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

One tip:
If you make the gameplay more complex by REMOVING things, you know you're on the right track http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Makinus]

I know that SE5 have more options than SE4, but thanks to the clunky interface it appears to the average player (non-modder), that SE4 have more strategic depth, since it´s easier to handle the SE4 interface, that is very streamlined, than to fight SE5 interface to access options that in SE4 are intuitive...

(i´m making any kind of sense?)

Makinus

[Intimidator]

NO !! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Xrati]

Yes, you reinforce the point that SE5 is easier to mod then play... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

/me wonders who hooked the "d" key up to the self destruct device instead of the cargo-drop crane.

[Xrati]

You're kidding me SJ, right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif
[have not played SE5, just the demo]

[Fyron]

You can configure hotkeys however you like, so its not a big deal. There is some logic to these buttons though: L launches units, O loads cargo remotely, K drops cargo remotely. The keys are all together on the keyboard; Aaron apparently felt it was better to group these cargo orders than make other commands with the same first letter use those keys. The other option is to put drop cargo on D and self-destruct on a random key like K, which seems to have more issues overall than the other way around (loss of grouping of similar orders). You can't put every order on a hotkey that matches the first letter; there are too many orders with the same letters.

Its not like most games tend to map every key to the first letter of the command anyways; E for jump/fire in shooter games and ("action") rpgs? WASD to move?


Makinus said:
(i´m making any kind of sense?)


Not really, since the interface still presents all of the data in practically the same way as SE4 (spreadsheet-like report screens, basic details in the planet info box with more detailed info on clicking, etc.); it just has a crappy button panel, some excessive confirmation buttons, excessive component slots, and such. None of its issues seem to detract from seeing the game's depth and complexity, to me, but rather from its playability.

[Suicide Junkie]

Self destruct doesn't deserve its own hotkey IMO.
Being a Turn Based game with lots of commands, twitch access is not important.

SE4 did it right. The most-used commands get their first letter as the obvious hotkey, and even the rarely-used ones (which use the leftover keys) are just one mouse click away... so you don't have to memorize anything.

[Fyron]

Still, its trivial to change them to suit your tastes.

[Xrati]

As ridiculous as modding the game would be??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[Fyron]

Are you saying it is difficult to use in-game configuration menus now?

[Xrati]

No, more like changing the game (modding) to suite your taste. Kinda like changing keystrokes (hotkeys) would be! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Fyron]

You're really stretching now...

[Possum]

No, Fyron, with all due respect, he's not stretching at all.

There are just some of us who really find the changes in SEV stupid and annoying. I respect and admire Aaron greatly (even if SE? is basically a ripoff of the old Starfire boardgame), but he ignored two basics in SEV.

1. The first law of updates &amp; sequels - "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
2. The KISS principle - "Keep it simple, stupid."

I am still playing SEIV, and having a hell of a good time with it. My current game at PBW with capnq, et al* is a blast, and we're rocking along at almost a turn a day. Moreover, it's an almost-stock game, using only TDM Modpack http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

I can't tell what Xrati is arguing for...
Are you pushing "stock is the holy word of Aaron", or "mod it and quit complaining"?


PS:
Does anybody happen to know where the default keymapping is?
I'd like to not have to edit all the keys for each game I start, but I can't find where to set them in the datafiles.

[Fyron]

Possum:
Certainly, but that has nothing to do with using the fact that you can change hotkeys in-game now as support for the assertion that SE5 is only a game for modders, given that configuring in-game settings is 180 degrees away from "modding." If we are going to start calling that modding now, then we have to say SE4 is a game only for modders as well, since there are lots of in-game settings most people tweak to their satisfaction (system display options, music volume, sort ordering of the report screens, etc.).

SJ:
Last I checked, the hotkey settings are saved between games. Saved in the registry with the other main menu settings, maybe? I just rechecked, and the random changes I made were still present after I exited and reloaded. I didn't save any game in the meantime.

[Suicide Junkie]

Hm. That's odd, it didn't save my changes until I ended turn in a game, but now its sticking.

[Xrati]

Ask Possum S.J., he knows what I'm talking about. All you need to do is read the posts without Fryons "interjections" of what 'I mean.' He has a tendency to put a spin on what people write about in his own words!

[Fyron]

Are you saying that you did not mean what you said then, that configuring hot-keys in-game is in fact not modding? What have I interjected that you did not explicitly state?


Xrati said:
No, more like changing the game (modding) to suite your taste. Kinda like changing keystrokes (hotkeys) would be! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Is being able to configure hotkeys in-game to suit your tastes part of the "features make it unappealing?" that I tried to get people posting so we could better petition Malfador? Does it hurt the game interface somehow, cause now you can change hotkeys you aren't satisfied with (without any modding of data files whatsoever)? Or is it just an industry standard practice that should have been in SE 7 years ago, and its finally catching up?

=0=

You want to talk about interjecting your own meanings, just look at what post started this silliness...


Xrati said:
I think Fyron hit it on the head when he said
Strategy-wise, SE5 is actually better than SE4. It has more depth in fleet strategy setup, it has more strategic options in weapon damage types (esp. for clever modders), the strategy is all there, buried underneath.


SE5 is a game for modders, not players...



Nothing in the referenced post had anything to do with making SE5 a game for modders instead of players; everything listed is already there, in-game. Modders can further expand damage types, but there is still a whole lot more to play with by default than SE4 had, which was my point... And yet now its hitting the nail on the head with it being a game not for players, cause players have a lot more options to fine-tune their fleets?

[Xrati]

No, in response to this...
SJ
Self destruct doesn't deserve its own hotkey IMO.
Being a Turn Based game with lots of commands, twitch access is not important.

SE4 did it right. The most-used commands get their first letter as the obvious hotkey, and even the rarely-used ones (which use the leftover keys) are just one mouse click away... so you don't have to memorize anything.



Fyron
Still, its trivial to change them to suit your tastes.



I said
As ridiculous as modding the game would be???


In response to your reply to insinuate that change would be "trivial"
Where do you get the idea that hotkeys and modding are the same thing? It's only your statement that relates to that, not mine! If your not sure what I meant, don't go assuming something and then bashing me for your interpretation, ASK… http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif

I do not play SE5 other then the demo, and therefore cannot offer any solutions to the game and have not done so. The game does not play as easy (for me) as it mods (for you) so I stand by my statement.

[Fyron]

It all seemed to flow into that, first saying se5 is only for modders, then stating that changing hotkeys is as ridiculous as modding the game and all... I suppose you didn't actually say it was modding, and I apologize for asserting that you did.

I don't get what the difference in intentions is between what I thought you said and what you did say (that it is "as ridiculous as modding"), though. What was the point? Being able to configure hotkeys makes the game less fun to play? Disagreeing with one default hotkey assignment makes the game difficult to play?

I don't disagree that SE5 can be a chore to play at times, but I just don't see hotkeys being part of it, or that the game is just for modders (its for people willing to put up with the interface, which has gotten somewhat better since the last demo).

[Xrati]

Fyron. I have read many posts about SE5's playability (some do like it and some do not). I have yet to read one post about it's modability!!! What do you think that could mean? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif I take it to mean that the game is more user friendly to modders then players...

The hotkeys comment was a insignificant point of sarcasm. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

[Fyron]

There are tons of posts about its moddability and issues therein (but even more about UI stuff).. There are more on the more active official forums than here, though. But even so, a lot of modders send their complaints about limitations and foibles directly to Aaron, rather than post about them on the forums (which he doesn't even read). Most of the moddable nature of hte game feels rather tacked-on, as if Aaron was designing it to do exactly what he wanted, then just put a bit of interface calls in text files. A recently discussed issue (on IRC) was being unable to specify just how many fighters get launched at a time from a fighter bay (all you specify is unit type and the rate in ms one fighters is launched). Luckily we found that duplicating the ability would get us what we wanted, but it shouldn't have even been necessary with better data format design; its an artificial limitation of abilities only having two "Amount" lines. Then there were clever things like monsters that grew in power the "older" they were, that got axed when Aaron started caching component values at design time for speed purposes... You don't even want to know how much insanity I ran into working on FQM...

[Xrati]

Well I guess there's nothing left to say but, wait for SE6... /threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif
Aaron can always rename it "Space Empires - A New Beginning" or "The Return of the Code" or "Space Empires Strikes Back". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
These would be some great names for SE6!

[StarShadow]

As long as the game is as fun, or more fun, than SE4 (since SE5 is not very fun, in my opinion), he could call it 'Revenge of the Bananas' for all I care..

[Xrati]

If you don't care what they name it, why even post anything until SE6 is released? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[StarShadow]

My point was that gameplay matters more than what he chooses to name the next version (assuming he even makes one). Are you offensive on purpose or is it just a natural gift?

[Xrati]

An old Vulcan saying goes, purpose without reason is illogical. /threads/images/Graemlins/icon07.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

That's only ever problem in sequential turn games...

[Xrati]

Yes, but if you reverse the polarity of the game, you will reverse the sequence.

[Suicide Junkie]

Bah.

I was replying to a post on page 6 because the forum likes to jump to the earliest page when I click the latest thread link http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Xrati]

Well it made for good reading anyhow!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Possum]

LOL, this thread's silliness quotient is escalating fast.

[Fyron]

It did start at near max-capacity from the first post.

[Xrati]

Yea, but it's what makes this board interesting and fun... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Renegade 13]

Coming to the topic a mite late (ok... very late), I'd like to address the original question.

Yes.

I don't play nearly as much as I used to, but SEIV is a game that I'll no doubt find a way to play now and then 50 years from now, with my (potential) grandchildren asking me "Grandpa, what the hell sort of primitive crap is that?" And I'll tell 'em, "This is the best damn game I've ever played". Well... without the "damn" because their parents would probably kill me, but you get the picture http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Xrati]

Ahhhh Yes! Renegade, and you'll probably still be posting here to tell us about your grand children. Maybe even post a pic or two of them!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Renegade 13]

Of course!