Evermore - MegaGame - Winner: AdmiralZhao!

[Velusion]

Evermore

Evermore Status Page: http://67.66.187.69/dominions3/stats.php?game=Evermore
Latest Scores.html file: Forthcoming

Game Type: TCP/IP (static server)
Speed: 24 hours per host for the first 21 turns moving to 48 hours per host until around turn 65+ in which it moves to 72.
Quickhost: enabled.
Era: Middle (this is for indy strength)
Players: 28
Map: 465 provinces with 63 of them being water. This equates to about 16.5 provinces per player. You can download the map here: http://67.66.187.69/dominions3/evermoremap.zip
Research Speed: Difficult
Victory Conditions: 275 out of 465 (60%) provinces controlled for three consecutive turns, or the surrendering of all other players (the latter is much more likely).
Graphs: On
Hall of Fame: 15
Renaming: On
Magic Site Frequency: 40
Deadline for Pretenders: Oct 4th 10PM
Length: If you aren’t eliminated this game might last a very long time. Be prepared!
Patch Level: Once released we will upgrade to the patch ASAP.
Mods: We will be using the Mega-mod V2 here: http://67.66.187.69/dominions3/mega-agev2.zip In addition to allowing all the nations of all eras to play it will also change the following:
• Arcane Nexus will not be available to cast.
• Clam of Pearls will require a path 2 (instead of 1) in Nature Magic (Water will stay the same). This will increase the cost to forge.
• Fever Fetishes will require a path 2 (instead of 1) in Fire Magic (Nature will stay the same). This will increase the cost to forge.
• Blood Stone will require a path 3 (instead of 2) in Earth Magic (Blood will stay the same). This will increase the cost to forge.

Connect info
67.66.187.69 port: 10020

How the Nations were awarded:
1st Seed: After the deadline I will award nations based on the player's first choice. If multiple players desire the same nation I will randomly select the player that is assigned the nation.
2nd Seed: We repeat the last step with those players that still have not been awarded nations and still have preferences. Players who are awarded a second seed get a 10% population increase in their capital.
3rd Seed: Repeat the Second Seed except the award is 20% population increase in their capital.
4th, 5th, 6th, etc Seed: Continue until there are no more conflicts, awarding and additional 10% per each seed.
Last Seed: On the seed where there are no more conflicts the final preferred nations are awarded and all the remaining players (those that ran out of preferences or never provided any) are randomly assigned the remaining nations. Whatever Seed level this ends up being is the population bonus all the remaining players will get. The seed cap limit will be 5 (i.e. 150% pop bonus).

Nation Assignment To see a detailed list of how the seeding occured go here: http://67.66.187.69/dominions3/Evermore_Seeds.html

Delays/Stales: There will be NO (Zero, Zip, Zilch) delays in the game UNLESS there was a server/hosting error. In which case we might rehost or delay the turn depending on the amount of people affected. If we ever get down to 10 or less players (unlikely) I’ll consider allowing short delays.

Exception: Over the Thanksgiving & Christmas holidays the turns will be extended for approximately 1 week each.

Due to the number of players I will be rather ruthless in enforcing the stale rule. No one will stale more than twice in a row before they are replaced or put on AI unless they let me know beforehand. If you let me know you will be gone you will not be replaced but the game will not be held up for you. Replacements/Subs will be found as per all my other games (see below).

Other Rules: The same rules that apply to all my other games also apply here. Please read these rules if you haven’t already:
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=d3maars&Number=507308&fpar t=&PHPSESSID=

Nations - Players
EA Ermor - Davegg
EA Marverni - Solo (20%)
EA Sauromatia - duke_commando
EA Abysia - Velusion (10%)
EA Caelum - Evilhomer (10%)
EA Tir na O'og - Roland (20%)
EA Helheim - Yucky (20%)
EA Niefelheim - Szumo
EA Yomi - FAJ
EA R'lyeh - Salamander8
EA Oceania - atul
MA Ermor - Dr. Praetorious
MA Pythium - BigandScary
MA Man - Theonlystd (20%)
LA Pangaea - Jazzepi (20%)
MA Abysia - Thrawn
MA C'tis - Ubercat
MA Vanheim - DryaUnda
MA Shinuyama - Aezeal (20%)
MA Atlantis - Baalz (20%)
MA R'lyeh - Lingchih (10%)
LA Arcoscephale - Ramshead (10%)
LA Ulm - Sensori
LA Marignon - Zaramis
LA Mictlan - AdmiralZhao
LA C'tis - coobe
LA Midgard - Lolomo (20%)
EA Lanka - Hadrian II

[BigDisAwesome]

Sounds awesome Velusion.

[Jazzepi]

I would really, really like this to be a wrap around map.

Jazzepi

[Zaramis]

you could do a manual wrap around. It would be ugly, but would work.. just link all the border provinces to the province on the other side? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif see them as teleporting provinces with strange gates that allow them to cross over the blackness of the edge.

[Velusion]

Zaramis said:
you could do a manual wrap around. It would be ugly, but would work.. just link all the border provinces to the province on the other side? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif see them as teleporting provinces with strange gates that allow them to cross over the blackness of the edge.



Ugly maps need not apply.

[Zaramis]

The map wouldn't be ugly. Just the method of wraparound..

[BigDisAwesome]

I think I remember Gandalf saying he tried that on his tower map and it wouldn't work.

[Gandalf Parker]

Here is a batch of max-sized wrapped maps.
http://www.dom3minions.com/RandomMaps/Max_Wrapped/Max_Wrapped.htm
For people who dont know, notice that the right side matches up to the left side, and the top matches up to the bottom. The game will allow you to scroll right-left and up-down forever by rolling the map.

Most of these are 1500 provinces. Its hard to get things quite right using the generator Im using (ParadoxHarbinger's MapGen). Especially mountain ranges but I will continue working on it. I also might script in some changes to the files.
If you grab one of these (go here and grab the appropriate zip file)
http://www.dom3minions.com/RandomMaps/Max_Wrapped/
then I would recommend the following changes.
A) rename the tga and map file to something more interesting than Max_###
B) edit the #dom2title in the .map file to match (all of these are presently called PHMAP when you look at them in the game creation menu)
C) edit the #imagefile to use the renamed tga file
D) edit the #description. At least add the land and water counts (is there an awk script or something around here that will spit those numbers out from a .map file?)
E) add a #defaultzoom
F) if one of the maps is good but the mountains arent right then you might take it into a paint program and "drop" brown into more provices, then use the map editor in Dom3 to change them to mountain terrain

If you want changes (colors, amount of xxxx terrain, etc) let me know and I will see about running a new batch with that change.

I think now I will mess with the "sprites" thing and see if I can generate new maps with little pictures of trees, mountains, etc. Eventually (maybe) I will get around to automating it so that it generates new maps each day, makes all of the above changes, zips them up, and refreshes the catalog

[Hadrian_II]

Would not be 140 out of 1000 a bit much water provinces, as in perpetuality the water nations are doing much better than the land ones.

[Xietor]

Agreed Hadrian.

i think there should be no more than 8 water provinces per water race. Let the water races experience the dog pile this time around!

Actually, i would like the map to have so few water provinces that the water races are forced out of the water if they wish to survive. It is totally unfair imho that in the Big Game they can be at the tops in almost every category, but are pretty much immune to all the initial rush fighting and dog piles that the land races were subjected to.

I did suggest banning all items that produce gems in the Big Game, as it is going to be game deciding because of the map size-wait and see. I would prefer to see gem producing items banned in the next game. Any idiot can sit in the water and make clams. What skill is there in that?

I would rather see a winner crowned on his ability to win battles, not by out micromanaging the others.

[Gandalf Parker]

I tried to keep the "number of provinces per player" pretty much the same for water players and land players (within the bounds of my terrible math abilities). Of course there is the argument that some of the water players can come onto land, but some of the land players tend to grab some water also (undead users for example) so I figure it tends to even out fairly.

As for BattleSkill vs MicroManagment I always thought that the small-map blitzes were where the BS players automatically excelled and the big maps were the MM players time to shine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Velusion]

Hadrian_II said:
Would not be 140 out of 1000 a bit much water provinces, as in perpetuality the water nations are doing much better than the land ones.



There are 157 water provinces in Perp, so I'm looking for less. at 1000 provinces thats 16.1 provinces per player, so for water nations that equates to 17.5. provinces per water player. This will probably be lower as most maps have small lakes. I'd be fine with anything in the 125-140 range though.
140 is the max.

[Velusion]

Xietor said:
I would prefer to see gem producing items banned in the next game. Any idiot can sit in the water and make clams. What skill is there in that?



This will not happen. Clams have a tradeoff as you are giving up resources that could be used immediately to conquer more provinces which could in turn give you more gems. With clams you are just doing another, safer, investment - but putting yourself in a weaker initial position by sacrificing gems.

The problem in these larger games is that the clams/hording is too good of an investment as you know the game will go on long enough for it to pay out nicely. Hence we will try tweaking the base cost so the payout is farther away. It might not be enough, but we'll see.

[Gandalf Parker]

Would "scattered water" be considered an advantage to the water nations? Or a drawback? It would make expansion much harder. And make it harder for one wter nation to quickly own up all of the water.

Or would be it better to group the water? Three lakes? or even just one ocean?

[Velusion]

I'm fine with there being some random "lakes" but I would like at least 75% all of the water provinces to belong to larger bodies of water and those larger bodies connected. I think this will encourage water nations to fight amongst each other but the winner will be more secure.

I'm inclined to have multiple "linked" oceans so there are choke points, but if the mapped looked good enough I would go with one large ocean. In the same vein I'd like "continents" of large land masses for land choke points.

Check out some of my other (non-wrap around) maps for examples of what I'm looking for:

http://67.66.187.69/dominions3/afterthoughtsmall.jpg
http://67.66.187.69/dominions3/discordancesmall.jpg
http://67.66.187.69/dominions3/perpetualitysmall.jpg

Except for a few minor errors - I really like (if I do say so myself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ) the perpetuality map - so somthing like that, but wrap around would be great.

[Kristoffer O]

Perhaps a left-right wraparound, like a tube. Polar seas in the north and in the south. Continents in the middle with some crossing points.

[Velusion]

Kristoffer O said:
Perhaps a left-right wraparound, like a tube. Polar seas in the north and in the south. Continents in the middle with some crossing points.



I'd be willing to consider that, sure... though it doesn't completely fix the perceived problem of players on the edges having an advantage.

It does help address the biggest hesitation I have for complete wrap arounds - which is the difficulty players will have in planning moves around the visual edges. Imagine if your nation starts in the exact corner of the visual map with a complete (up/down left/right) wrap around map? Blah, it would be a total scroll mess. It suddenly becomes disadvantageous to start on the corners/edges.

[Gandalf Parker]

If the map is flagged right then the player will never notice he is on the edge. The game tiles the map and provides endless scrolling. As far as players are concerned, they all will think they "started in the middle" of the map

[Velusion]

Gandalf Parker said:
If the map is flagged right then the player will never notice he is on the edge. The game tiles the map and provides endless scrolling. As far as players are concerned, they all will think they "started in the middle" of the map



Oh well then, sounds much better now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Jazzepi]

Yeah, what Gandalf said is correct. You can't even see the edges.

Jazzepi

[Velusion]

The next change from the last game is that there will be an set end point (if not reached earlier).

I'm thinking the game will end at 125. People can keep playing if they'd like, but the score would be over.

Points would be an average of total provinces held over either the last 25 or 15 turns. In the unlikely event of a tie we will average in the previous turn before official scoring... and keep doing so until a winner is clear.

This would mean there would be a definitive end date for the game.

Say the game begins Oct 1st. Assuming we switch to 48 hour turns on turn 25 and 72 hour turns on turn 65 the game will go on for no longer than 285 days (approximately 9 months). More than likely this will end sometime before that (7-8 months?) due to quick hosts, or an outright win by the surrendering of the other players.

Discussion on the victory conditions, game length is welcome.

[Jazzepi]

I would prefer to just let the players playing decide if they want to continue. I don't see the advantage of a arbitrary victory condition.

Jazzepi

[Zaramis]

It's good to know as a player what turn you should head for, so to speak. It makes it easier to plan ahead, and give some merit to holding out the last few turns if you are dying http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Velusion]

Post deleted by Velusion

[llamabeast]

Wrong thread Velusion? Seems a bit premature.

[Velusion]

llamabeast said:
Wrong thread Velusion? Seems a bit premature.


Heh - yep wrong thread.

[Szumo]

I'm working on a map generator, one that takes any existing image file and tries to make Dom3 map out of it. Wraparound can be enabled separately for both x nad y axis.

Would you be interested in a map made from Blue Marble NASA pictures? I'll attach a half size image so you can see what i mean.
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/546755-1half.png

[Xietor]

I am not a fan of the wrap around. Sure it is an advantage to start in a corner-or is it? In my area of the map NW Corner the race in the corner(MA Caelum) was one of the 1st killed because other races wanted to be in the corner.

Typically races not in a corner will fight towards the corner or edge.

I think the race selection process is much more determinative of one's fate than a corner.

MA Ulm or EA Lanka-you decide.

[Xietor]

No arbitrary winning conditions. People that start out with more challenged races need more time to amass provinces than races like LA Ermor/EA Lanka/LA Ryleh etc.

To give the more balanced races a fighting chance to win, there cannot be a race to reach a certain number of provinces by a certain turn.

If players get bored after 9 months, they can resign or go ai.

[Gandalf Parker]

Personally Ive always liked multiple winning conditions for a game like this. The way that some other games allow. Something like

A) xxx number of Provinces
B) xx of Forts
C) xxxxx Income
D) xxxxx Gem Income
E) xxxxxx Research
F) xxxx Dominion
G) xxxxx Army Size
H) xx Victory Points
I) xx ownership of uniques
J) casting a particularly difficult to reach/hold global

Also maybe something like "no winner for the first 100 turns" and "must fill 4 of the above conditions".

I like that a game setting like that can open the door for many strategies including turtling, or rush-research. And making an unexpected grouping of lesser conditions to slip by others expectations.

Gandalf Parker

[Zaramis]

Strongly agree with Gandalf.

Multiple winning conditions would be nice for a game this big, where we can actually take our time and plan for the extremely long run http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif At least with the right peaceful neighbors.

[llamabeast]

Szumo, that map editor looks awesome! You should make a thread on the maps/mods forum section.

Some kind of well defined victory conditions/turn limit sounds sensible to me. If it goes on too long people will drift away, and then its somewhat ruined for remaining players. To me the early turns of a game - 0-75 perhaps - are the most fun. 125 should be plenty. However, I won't be playing, so you should probably disregard this opinion!

[Jazzepi]

Gandalf Parker said:
Personally Ive always liked multiple winning conditions for a game like this. The way that some other games allow. Something like

A) xxx number of Provinces
B) xx of Forts
C) xxxxx Income
D) xxxxx Gem Income
E) xxxxxx Research
F) xxxx Dominion
G) xxxxx Army Size
H) xx Victory Points
I) xx ownership of uniques
J) casting a particularly difficult to reach/hold global

Also maybe something like "no winner for the first 100 turns" and "must fill 4 of the above conditions".

I like that a game setting like that can open the door for many strategies including turtling, or rush-research. And making an unexpected grouping of lesser conditions to slip by others expectations.

Gandalf Parker



I'm definitely not playing in a game like this.

Jazzepi

[Wikd Thots]

Yeah. Crap if we have a game like that then we can't have all the discussions and betting early about who will win. No one would be able to say ahead of time who is strong or not. Leave it just "my army can beat your army" until only one is left standing. So those with more experience will know where they rate. It doesn't matter if a game this big can never finish a game that way. Because that's the way the game is supposed to be played.

[Zaramis]

Yeah, it would suck to have actual strategy in Dominions. Damn, who came up with that stupid idea.

[BigDisAwesome]

In a game that is basically ALL strategy, I'd have to agree with Wikd Thots.

Image a small nation with NAP's to all it's neighbors. It is free to spam forts, research, and cheap units. And if it played it's cards right it could win the race to the uniques.
All of a sudden a nobody non important nation just won the game.

[llamabeast]

Velusion's own suggestion sounded very sensible to me.

[Velusion]

I've always looked at all those other attributes (army size, research, forts, etc...) as just tools to help you take over the world (ala provinces).

[Salamander8]

Perp has been such a blast I'd love to play in another of these games. Looking forward to see how it pans out once it is closer to finalization.

[Baalz]

That map looks awesome Szumo! Perfect for a mega game!

[Zaramis]

To me, I see different victory conditions as a way for players with different playstyles to be able to win it. If someone is turtling it out, people would have to stop him, too. It requires more monitoring and spying than a normal "get as many provinces as possible" game. Also, it gives a strong nation a chance to win by thinking in a new and creative way. It's like the different victory conditions in the Civilization games.

[Velusion]

Szumo - the map does look cool - but I'm looking for a randomly generated one with the types of lands spread out (imagine starting in the middle of the sahara)

[Hadrian_II]

I hope the new megagame will not have some arbitrary victory conditions or that it will end at an defined turn. As perpetuality is now beginning to get really interesting, and for example a research condition would be met long ago.

Also i dont think that players would attack people coming close to an research victory, just look like noone is doing something about ermor in perpetuality.

[EarthRaver]

whats a placeholder?

[Velusion]

The game will only have provinces for victory conditions. The question is the time frame in turns before we call the game and the method of valuing the provinces (average how many turns? Just take the last turn?).

I'm 90% sure there is going to be some sort of turn limit. It isn't really feasible in this size game to expect a natural consensus winner in any reasonable time frame.

I'm pretty sure players in Perpetually will simply lose interest eventually as the micromanagement gets outrageous (I know I probably will). Having a turn in mind to shoot for gives players a light at the end of the tunnel and might pull in some players that have passed on Perp because they feel the end game will be never ending (and I tend to agree with them).

While I understand that placing an artifical turn limit might change the game a bit, if it is between that and the game never ending, I'll take the former. Also no one has made it clear to me WHY it's a bad thing. How does it really change the game so much? What will players be doing differently if the game ends on turn 125 and the victory condition is an average of the province count of the last 25 turns?

Also - I can leave the game up for as long players want to play. If people want to keep playing - they can feel free.

[Evilhomer]

Im more interested in how we will pick nations in this game =)

[Velusion]

I'm debating having an auction where nations are bid on using population points from their capital if enough people are interested.

[Xietor]

You only get tired of long games if you micromanage. If you micromanage, you deserve the fate of boredom.

I will say 100 percent accurately, and Gandalf can verify it by looking at my turn file, I do not have any blood slave action going on, and have not made 1 gem producing item.

Yes, gandalf, I am truly a blitz player, specializing in winning battles, with little thought to the hammer i know that is coming in terms of game ending spells. I am relying on the micromanagers to cancel each other out.

If you micromanage-that is your problem. My turns in the Big Game do not take long, and they will never take too long.

So just because some do not have the stomach to finish a game, do not let punish the rest of us. If the rest get bored in the big game and forfeit to me, then i will wear my crown proudly, knowing a battle strategy specialist can beat micromanagers even on the big maps.

Btw Velusion, if you are bored start sending me your gems now. Despite being a blitz guy, i know what to do with gems!

[Baalz]

What we should do is have everyone who wrote a guide play that nation. So I'd get Mictlan, Velusion would get LA Ermor, Evilhomer would get R'yleh, er....

Hmmm, I think that what we did last time worked out as intended. With one notable exception pretty much all the nations currently strongest in Perpetuality got no population bonus (were first round draft picks), so in hindsight it seems like that was a good idea to try and boost the less popular picks with more population. An auction sounds like fun, you could better shop for which nation was "cheapest" and undervalued in your opinion.

[Velusion]

Xietor said:
If you micromanage-that is your problem. My turns in the Big Game do not take long, and they will never take too long.




Micromanging is, however, required to be competitive in the large late games. Once a nation gets large enough a player who squeaks out every advantage out of their turn will do better than someone who breezes though and doesn't optimize. Unfortunately Dom3 pretty much insists that you micromanage your large empires to be competitive.

[Velusion]

Baalz said:
What we should do is have everyone who wrote a guide play that nation. So I'd get Mictlan, Velusion would get LA Ermor, Evilhomer would get R'yleh, er....




Heh... I'm most certainly going to let someone else try their hand at LA Ermor.

[Evilhomer]

Yeah, im not playing Rlyeh again. I have gotten them so many times in vels random lottery.

[Sombre]

I might be able to help out with the flags. Let me know what you had in mind.

[Velusion]

Sombre said:
I might be able to help out with the flags. Let me know what you had in mind.



I'll PM you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Xietor]

I actually do not know why we can't vote to eliminate gem producing items from the game. That would eliminate much of the micromanagement.

IMHO, that is one thing I would like to see the developers eliminate. Why intentionally add a micromanagement strategy to the game?

Gem producing items also undermine the importance of globals that give gems.

[iceboy]

Here is my favorite sp map ive been using if interested. I like the way the sea is connected to everything...

[Gandalf Parker]

Keep in mind that there are people who enjoy micromanagment.
I always thought that the games normal progression would be that the blitzers would enjoy the early game, and then turn themselves over to MM people while keeping an eye out for being able to sub failing empires later.

[Xietor]

If people enjoy micromanaging, then why are we discussing a turn limit because they get sick of it? cannot have it both ways!

And I am still alive in the Big game, and I am not looking to turn my empire over to some MM i killed off earlier in the game. Sorry to disappoint you! The sad thing is most mm hide in the water, so they can survive the early game rushes.

[atul]

Baalz said:With one notable exception pretty much all the nations

Yay, root for the underdog! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Anyway, I kinda liked the way Perpetuality's nation lottery worked out. Don't know what could be done to further make unwanted nations feel happy, maybe even more bonuses?

I'm just wondering, how would the simultaneous auctioning of 60+ nations work out, and with what mechanics. What would prevent someone winning several nations, and what could you do then? Perp lottery was kinda exciting when you could not know what others did put as their choices.

[Zoshan]

Just wanted to say that if you put any kind of turn limit on the game or victory condition you force ppl to use one of a very few stratagies to win. The whole game expierance will be limited.

As for my part, I tend to not play in any game that has some random limit.

[Velusion]

Zoshan said:
Just wanted to say that if you put any kind of turn limit on the game or victory condition you force ppl to use one of a very few stratagies to win. The whole game experience will be limited.



Again - blanket statements... but no examples. How will it be significantly different? I'm not wed to the idea - but you have to get into more detail than: "The entire game will be ruined oh-es no-es!!"

[Baalz]

Velusion said:
Heh... I'm most certainly going to let someone else try their hand at LA Ermor.



Yeah, I was gonna hurry up and write another guide. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Shuma]

I don't think being good at battle strategy and having the stomach to micro a large empire are mutually exclusive.

[Xox]

Please oh please no turn limit on the game, It creates an artificial end of the world point that all strategies must point towards.

We had a horrible time in one of Zacariah's games (where his position was eliminated early) when he sprung a previously undiscused, unannounced 75 turn limit on the game just as the final decison making wars were starting.

I personally disagree with this current mindset that the late stage game is not fun. For me, it is the most fun. All that happnes before is prelude to the cataclysmic battles with wild magicks in the apocolyptic endgame.

Don't confuse your pwrsonal time constraints with the playability of the game. The real problem of the game is that it takes 2 minutes to do a turn or up to several hours depending on where you are in the game

Usually we are all wishing we were in more games as you can be in 4 games taking 20 minutes a day or even less and then gradually you have two or three games in the several hour a turn stage and you are screwed.

Hard to predict too. You never know when you start a game whether you will get eliminated early, or kept in a smaller marginal postion all game or have a globe spanning massive empire with several constant campaigns.

[Velusion]

atul said:
[quote]
Baalz said:I'm just wondering, how would the simultaneous auctioning of 60+ nations work out, and with what mechanics. What would prevent someone winning several nations, and what could you do then?



Eh, the more I think about it the more I think that an auction is probably not feasible as it would take too long.

I think I'll just fall back on the way it was done last time - though I might increase the bonus if you get a random selection (say 15% more pop than the last selected nation - so you will get a bonus of about 30-35%).

If anyone has any suggestions on how to perform nation selection that would take no longer than week I'd be interested.

[atul]

Velusion said:
Eh, the more I think about it the more I think that an auction is probably not feasible as it would take too long.

If anyone has any suggestions on how to perform nation selection that would take no longer than week I'd be interested.

If you want an auction that can be done in set amount of time, but which can be a bit burdensome for organizer, how about some variation of Dutch auction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_auction)?

Everyone submits their nation bids. The organizer starts on monday with some ridicilously low amount of cap population / design points / whatever manna, say 25%. Every bidder with a bid to some nation with 25% or manna gets the nation, with exact bids roll the dice. Come tuesday, the result of monday is published and taken nations are removed from the list. On tuesday, the cutoff is at say 50% of the standard, wednesday 75%, thursday 100%, friday 125% and on saturday organizer performs a lottery of remaining nations with some manna bonus.

It could be ruled that you can't bid two nations with same percentile, and your favorite is considered the one with less good stuff. Also, say, bidding in 5% increments. Also (and this is important), bids can be revised daily with bids above yesterday's cutoff, so you can adapt to situation. EDIT: and in case it wasn't apparent, all bids are hidden before the cutoff line is reached, after which won nation and winner are published.

So, as an example:

On monday, I feel no nation is worth less than 25% points, however I submit my original bidding scheme, say:
LA Ermor 45% (decided on tuesday)
Lanka 55% (decided on wednesday)
Sauromatia 85% (thursday)
MA Man 90% (also, thursday, I get this only if Sauromatia goes to someone else)

Come tuesday's cutoff line, I notice both Ermor and Lanka gone, and not to me. Oh well, I still have Sauromatia and Man as bidding options, so I don't need to react.

Wednesday, I notice every nation I've bidded for is already taken by someone else (I had no outstanding bids below 75% line), and I tire of my life, so I submit the following line:
MA Ulm 80%
MA Agartha 85%
Shinuama 90%
EA Marverni 95%
Which I all win. However, since only one nation per player, I get MA Ulm since that was my lowest bid.

Obviously that's quite a work load for organizer for he has to organize everyone's bids and update them almost daily. Bids should be able to be given in advance in case not everyone has time to sit daily on the 'net, but that does increase the work.

Anyway, that's a form of auction you could pull off in a week. I'm not sure how well it'd work, or what to use as a stick/carrot (LA Ermor probably won't mind the pop loss), or whether it'd be manageable. The previous system did work, though.

[BigDisAwesome]

Or hell, you could always just do a random draw. I'm thinking that it's so much of a pain to even wrap my brain around these auctions and such that I'd rather just have a nation assigned to me.

[DrPraetorious]

Well, Velusion and I are the ones who administered the auction http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

My end of it wasn't hard to do at all, I just had to read a list of 80 lines. I don't know how difficult it was for Velusion to coordinate the actual bids, but I'd be happy to handle it if it was a pain.

And anyone who doesn't want to take part in the draft could get a random nation, so they should be happy as well.

[Evilhomer]

An easy bid system:

Each player submits a list of maximum ten nation bids, followed by a negative or positive number inside some interval, say between -30.000 and +10.000. A negative number means the population you are willing to give up, while a positive number is the bonus you want in order to play that nation.

An example: Homers list

1. LA Rlyeh -20.000
2. EA Lanka -15.000
3. MA Rlyeh -13.000
4. LA ermor -5.000
5. EA Caelum -2.000
6. LA patala -1.000
7. MA bandar Log +4.000
8. MA Jotunheim +7.000
9. MA ulm +10.000
10. EA marvereni +10.000

After that everyones bids are calculated and the winning bid is found for each nation. A winning bid is the largest negative value, or if no negative bids exist the lowest positive value. If one player wins several bids, he wins the bid with the lowest nation number on his list - the rest of the bids are removed, and the second highest bidder is found.

Example: say Homer above won the following bids

2. EA Lanka -15.000
4. LA ermor -5.000
8. MA Jotunheim +7.000

Then Homer plays EA Lanka with the starting population of 30.000-15.000= 15.000. The rest of his bid are removed, and the next highest bidder is found for LA ermor and MA Jotunheim.

*In the unlikely event two players gives the exact same bid, luck will decide between them who gets the nation.

*Players that doesnt win any bid or signs up for random nations are given a random nation among the remaining nations with the maximum pop bonus (here: +10.000).

I belive this will add a bit to the start since you are basically forced to evaluate at what price you are willing to play the stronger nations. Also the work for those setting up this game will not be that hard.

[DrPraetorious]

Homer's system would potentially work, of course, but I think that the 5000 pop/round draft worked surprisingly well, and see no reason to fiddle with it.

I can try making a wrap-around map using GIMP and then let Szumo fiddle with it. The maps are generally quite pretty, but I'm not sure how well his map-reader will deal with them.

I attached the example output of the default "Render Map" functiom fromp GIMP as a jpeg; obviously the real map would be much bigger, just for starters. My knowledge of scheme scripting is not outstanding, but I can figure out this script well enough to modify it, I believe.

- How many pixels should the map be? Square?
- What portion of the actual area should be water? What portion mountains?
- I have to add farmland, swamps and wastes as a new layer. How much of each, and should they / can they overlap with any mountains?
- What color scheme do we want?

I'm also working on a mod to add 11 custom nations to a megagame. There are more than 11 mod nations in existence so I'd like to combine and revise a bunch of them, mostly have permission from the mod authors.

[Baalz]

I was thinking about the amount of water on the map in light of how Perpetually developed. I'm feeling like the next game perhaps needs significantly less water as the two greatly dominating nations are *sharing* the water. Winning would be a certainty (rather than a high probability) if one conquered the other - without ever really having to leave the water. Water nations are at too much of an advantage underwater to be able to win without ever leaving it IMO. If we're going with 15 provinces per player it should be more like 10 water and 5 land for each water player since they really are intended to have to fight their way above water at some point for the win.

[Velusion]

Baalz said:
I was thinking about the amount of water on the map in light of how Perpetually developed. I'm feeling like the next game perhaps needs significantly less water as the two greatly dominating nations are *sharing* the water. Winning would be a certainty (rather than a high probability) if one conquered the other - without ever really having to leave the water. Water nations are at too much of an advantage underwater to be able to win without ever leaving it IMO. If we're going with 15 provinces per player it should be more like 10 water and 5 land for each water player since they really are intended to have to fight their way above water at some point for the win.



There is definitely too much water in Perp - which is my fault and is having a huge effect on the game (though to be fair no one complained about it until we started even though the map was available). The new map will have significantly less. Perp has 1000 provinces which should equate to 16.1 provinces per player. However water nations (7.5) are allocated over 21.2 water provinces per water player while land nations were allocated only 15.4 land provinces per player. Not good.

Personally I'd rather just see the ratio fairly distributed (16-15 for everyone) and see how that works. I think 10 would be way too harsh. After all there are number of land nations that can easily take and hold water provinces.

[Baalz]

Oh things are always clearer in hindsight, no worries on not thinking of everything. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Perhaps 10 would be too harsh, I don't really know. My thinking was that water nations are at a significant advantage if they're allowed to stay almost completely in the water and they're (with the possible exception of EA R'yleh) at less of a disadvantage on land than any land nation is in the water so it makes more sense to force them onto land than to force land players to fight them in the water. Since land nations tend to avoid picking fights with the water nations until late game they have the leisure to cherry pick the land fights they want to engage in. The competition on land in Perpetuality seemed to be *much* stronger which I'm sure was in large part due to the province count, but part of it was just that there were more hungry players, more borders to defend, and more scheming. Ah well, I was thinking about trying to snag MA R'yleh this time around anyway, dunno what I'm complaining about. Makes sense to try it with an even count to see how that works out.

[Zaramis]

I agree with Baalz for this one..

[Velusion]

So, assuming there will be a turn limit the gem generators will be increased by the following:

Clam of Pearls will require a path 2 (instead of 1) in Nature Magic (Water will stay the same). This will increase the cost to forge.
Fever Fetishes will require a path 2 (instead of 1) in Fire Magic (Nature will stay the same). This will increase the cost to forge.
(New in v1.1)Blood Stone will require a path 3 (instead of 2) in Earth Magic (Blood will stay the same). This will increase the cost to forge.

[Xox]

It looks like you decided to have a turn limit to the game. How sad.

[Velusion]

Xox said:
It looks like you decided to have a turn limit to the game. How sad.



I thought about putting it up to a vote, but then I realized I don't really want to play in a game that never ends. If I'm not gonna play, I'm not going to bother hosting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

On a side note, no one ever even attempted to seriously address why having a turn limit with an province-average end would significantly change the game which only strengthened my own resolve that an end needed to be enforced.

[Jazzepi]

My biggest problem with turn limits are as follows.

It's difficult to predict when a game is going to end. What if the artificially set turn limit comes just as a bunch of nations are ganging up on the leader? Why then, should a nation that is /going/ to lose, win simply because of the clock. What if, right now, LA R'yleh in Perpetuality was declared the winner simply because he had the most territories. This is especially frustrating for people that are on the other side of a huge map who have no, to little, ability to contribute to the war effort / diplomatic situation.

If this game is going to have an artifical turn limit, I'll just go ahead and withdraw my application to play. I have no interest in one. My suggestion would be to have a tentative turn limit, and then when it comes up, have players vote if they want to stop or continue.

Jazzepi

[Velusion]

Thats an easy answer - since the turn limit is known (and it will be an average of the last 15 or so turns probably - so it probably won't be crystal clear) the nations SHOULD have ganged up on LA R'lyeh earlier in your example. Not doing so was a strategic blunder and they deserved to lose.

If it's obvious that someone has locked in the game 20 or so turns early well then perhaps people should have gotten off thier *** and attacked him a long time ago?

It's not different from a normal game really.
1. Nations put off attacking big power
2. Nations suddenly realize they need to do something about big power
3. Nations come to realize that even all their combined might won't bring that nation down.
4. Nations resign and the big power wins.

The game is the same - you just need to make a judgment call of when "too late" is.

[Jazzepi]

My problem is that this...

4. Nations resign and the big power wins.

Does not happen in turn limit games. I don't need some artificial metric to tell me when to give up. I'm perfectly fine at making that decision on my own.

Jazzepi

[atul]

I'm for the turn limit.

Reason? The number 4. Instead of a big game stopping with a whimper (everyone just quits), it goes off with a bang (everyone's bidding their hand for top position). At least in ideal universe.

I just played a game of Risk 2210 AD with my friends. The largest change to normal Risk was a turn limit. After 5 turns, the game ends and winner is declared. Sounds like madness, but it actually worked really well.

BTW, turn limit of 120 turns or so is a lot. Perp is in turn 66 and has only third or so of the original cast left.

[Baalz]

atul said:
Perp is in turn 66 and has only third or so of the original cast left.



And arguably is not terribly far from coming to a head in terms of critical mass of a couple of nations. I'll be kinda surprised if it goes another 20 turns without it being overwhelmingly obvious who the winner is going to be.

[Hadrian_II]

Why has the game to end at a fixed turn?
If you want to make it shorter, then there are enough other possibilities for victory, like the first to reach 250 provinces and hold them for 3 turns wins. So there is a game where noone will have to manage 400 province empires and it will not end apruptly. (as the empire that has 250 provinces needs to be strong enough to hold his provinces for 3 turns [i think using the normal province victory of dom3 would make the game too suspectible to air drop blunders])

I personally think that a turn limit is a pretty boring end to a megagame. Also, how would it be for the nation that has just 1 province less than the victor and now just lost the game (maybe this secon nation gained already defeated the 'winning' nation at war, but just needs some more time).

If you want to end the game, just wish for armageddon ten times, and most players will leave out of frustration.

[Jazzepi]

Baalz said:

atul said:
Perp is in turn 66 and has only third or so of the original cast left.



And arguably is not terribly far from coming to a head in terms of critical mass of a couple of nations. I'll be kinda surprised if it goes another 20 turns without it being overwhelmingly obvious who the winner is going to be.



In radiance the game went to turn 105+ or so with 5 or so viable contenders. That wasn't even a mega game.

Jazzepi

[Velusion]

Jazzepi said:

Baalz said:

atul said:
Perp is in turn 66 and has only third or so of the original cast left.



And arguably is not terribly far from coming to a head in terms of critical mass of a couple of nations. I'll be kinda surprised if it goes another 20 turns without it being overwhelmingly obvious who the winner is going to be.



In radiance the game went to turn 105+ or so with 5 or so viable contenders. That wasn't even a mega game.

Jazzepi



Yea - and the game ended without a real winner because people were simply too tired to keep playing. Radiance is an excellent example of why I support some sort of end.

[Velusion]

Hadrian_II said:
Why has the game to end at a fixed turn?
If you want to make it shorter, then there are enough other possibilities for victory, like the first to reach 250 provinces and hold them for 3 turns wins. So there is a game where noone will have to manage 400 province empires and it will not end apruptly. (as the empire that has 250 provinces needs to be strong enough to hold his provinces for 3 turns [i think using the normal province victory of dom3 would make the game too suspectible to air drop blunders])




I could agree to something like that. 250-400 seems somewhat reasonable.

[Jazzepi]

So, basically what you're saying is that propping up a victor, through an artificial metric, who didn't really win is better than no winner at all. I completely disagree.

Jazzepi

[Xox]

Velusion, there was quite a bit of discussion on why turn limits are bad. So i very much disagree with your statement that noone seriously addressed the issue.

The biggets reason is that it causes all strategies to warp and culminate at that end of the world turn limit.

I, along with others who have said so, will not play in any turn limit game also. But at least you tell us in advance, so we can choose whether to play or not. Unlike the last game I played with another host.


And, having said that, you host, you get to choose the rules. So we all can choose.

[Xox]

well, hmm, ok, just read your last post,

I have to agree your upper turn limits sound way more than reasonable. 250-400. I think we can all agree on something there so Velusion does not have nightmares about hosting some game forever.

[Jazzepi]

That was a number or provinces, not a turn limit.

Jazzepi

[Evilhomer]

Any ETA on when this game will get started ?

[Velusion]

The plan was to wait for the next patch. I suppose we'll stop waiting in about next 3-4 weeks and just go ahead and start.

[Sombre]

I updated streamers and standards to include Eriu and Tirnanog flags. I can do a larger update as per Velusion's request when the next patch comes out.

[Salamander8]

What we should do is have everyone who wrote a guide play that nation. So I'd get Mictlan, Velusion would get LA Ermor, Evilhomer would get R'yleh, er....


As far as playing a nation that you wrote a guide for,
I'd love to try my hand at EA R'Lyeh in an MP actually. Not saying I'd win for that, but would definately like to give them a shot.

I was pretty happy with Perp's nation draft really. If you are like me and prefer certain nations, you stick them high on your list (and my list was 20 nations long!) and try to get them and forgoe bonuses. If you don't really care which nation you get, you just take what fate gives you with a bonus.

[Evilhomer]

The system was adequate - the bonus was not sufficient in my opinion.

[Velusion]

Sombre said:
I updated streamers and standards to include Eriu and Tirnanog flags. I can do a larger update as per Velusion's request when the next patch comes out.



Sweeeet!

[Velusion]

Evilhomer said:
The system was adequate - the bonus was not sufficient in my opinion.



Should we up the bonus to 10% instead of 5%?

[Xietor]

1. I think we should wait for the patch since many major changes coming, including battlefield enchantments ending when casting mage retreats.

2. I am fine with random nation selection that we had in perp, but i do think no one should play the same nation again. I also think people that played water races, should be forced to play a land race. In other words, i do not want to see musical chairs with same players still in the water, but with different nations.

3. I am for a mod that nerfs the hell out of gem producing items or a limit of 25 total per race.

4. I am for banning the few truly game ending spells.

5. I am not in favor of ending the game with artificial limits. At the point a clear winner emerges, most players will voluntarily step aside and crown him. But I do not think they should be forced to step down if they want to fight it out.

[Velusion]

Xietor said:
1. I think we should wait for the patch since many major changes coming, including battlefield enchantments ending when casting mage retreats.




There is no ETA for the patch. I'll give it a couple more weeks but I'm not keen on waiting indefinatly. When the patch comes out after we have started we will pause to patch up.


Xietor said:
2. I am fine with random nation selection that we had in perp, but i do think no one should play the same nation again. I also think people that played water races, should be forced to play a land race. In other words, i do not want to see musical chairs with same players still in the water, but with different nations.




People will be free to select whatever nation they desire. Wether they win it on the other hand...


Xietor said:
3. I am for a mod that nerfs the hell out of gem producing items or a limit of 25 total per race.




I am considering raising the cost of gem producing items even more than initially suggested. "Nerf the hell out" is probably not going to happen.


Xietor said:
4. I am for banning the few truly game ending spells.




Arcane Nexus will remain banned. No other game spells will be modified.

[Hadrian_II]

Velusion said:

Xietor said:
4. I am for banning the few truly game ending spells.




Arcane Nexus will remain banned. No other game spells will be modified.



Wishing for Armageddon might be the only thing that is really ugly as you can drop a few of them as a parting gift and the effect is devestating.

[Xietor]

Why should a person with Lanka, LA Ermor, or LA Ryleh be free to play the same powerful races again, and the person with MA ulm perhaps be stuck with that race again?

Makes no sense to me in terms of fairness. I can honestly say I would go on ai before I would play ma ctis again.

[Evilhomer]

Perhaps the bid system I suggested earlier. That way you are going to pay heavily in terms of starting position if you want the best nations.

[Baalz]

Yeah, seems like it'd be more fun/strategic to be able to see what you have to bid for any given nation. It'd be nice if there was a way to try and get a weaker nation with a bonus rather than basically picking whoever you think is the strongest which is essentially what we did last time. Wouldn't really need to be unwieldy.

1) Lock the player list so we've got a set number of bidders.
2) Everyone post bids for the nations they'd like to play, in order of preference (ie 1st choice: LA Ermor with a 5% discount, 2nd choice: LA Mictlan no discount, etc)
3) Update the first post with the current high bidder, if one person is the high bidder for more than one nation only his highest preference bid is counted
4) Anyone not a high bidder needs to bid again, possibly dislodging a current high bidder, possibly bidding (cheaply) on a nation nobody has bid for yet. Since there is a set number of bidders which is less than or equal to the number of nations there will always be unclaimed nations to bid for and pick up cheaply.
5) You can't rebid unless you're not a current high bidder (to make sure this finishes relatively quickly)

We'll want a minimum bid (maximum bonus) so that the last couple picks don't get ridiculous bonuses.

This would prevent anybody from getting a bonus for a strong nation because nobody realized nobody was picking them.

[Xietor]

All I know is i want to see EH, Velusion, and K get

1. MA Ulm
2. MA Atlantis
3. MA Tien Chi

Nothing personal guys, just like to see the great players overcome some adversity!

[Salamander8]

2. I am fine with random nation selection that we had in perp, but i do think no one should play the same nation again. I also think people that played water races, should be forced to play a land race. In other words, i do not want to see musical chairs with same players still in the water, but with different nations.


Why I see some vaildity here, I think this is a bit much. While I don't have any intentions of always playing a water race (and in fact, 2 of my MP games with 'picking power' I chose Yomi and Agartha), trying to force people to not play 2 different water nations in a row doesn't really help anything. Some people don't even like water nations in the first place, others like the water or don't care. One thing my days of SFB campaigns showed me is that trying to force people to play an empire they don't like causes serious problems. I freely admit to some bias as I stated before that I would like to try my hand at EA R'Lyeh in the next megagame, but I can't see much of a reason for such an arbitrary restriction.

[Yucky]

I'm very excited about this upcoming sequel to Perpetuality, many thanks for hosting!

[Evilhomer]

Yes, let's get this one rolling http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Velusion]

Evilhomer said:
An easy bid system:

Each player submits a list of maximum ten nation bids, followed by a negative or positive number inside some interval, say between -30.000 and +10.000. A negative number means the population you are willing to give up, while a positive number is the bonus you want in order to play that nation.

An example: Homers list

1. LA Rlyeh -20.000
2. EA Lanka -15.000
3. MA Rlyeh -13.000
4. LA ermor -5.000
5. EA Caelum -2.000
6. LA patala -1.000
7. MA bandar Log +4.000
8. MA Jotunheim +7.000
9. MA ulm +10.000
10. EA marvereni +10.000

After that everyones bids are calculated and the winning bid is found for each nation. A winning bid is the largest negative value, or if no negative bids exist the lowest positive value. If one player wins several bids, he wins the bid with the lowest nation number on his list - the rest of the bids are removed, and the second highest bidder is found.

Example: say Homer above won the following bids

2. EA Lanka -15.000
4. LA ermor -5.000
8. MA Jotunheim +7.000

Then Homer plays EA Lanka with the starting population of 30.000-15.000= 15.000. The rest of his bid are removed, and the next highest bidder is found for LA ermor and MA Jotunheim.

*In the unlikely event two players gives the exact same bid, luck will decide between them who gets the nation.

*Players that doesnt win any bid or signs up for random nations are given a random nation among the remaining nations with the maximum pop bonus (here: +10.000).

I belive this will add a bit to the start since you are basically forced to evaluate at what price you are willing to play the stronger nations. Also the work for those setting up this game will not be that hard.



This looks workable (though we will drop the .0000 at the end of every number http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif )

What do people think of homers system?

atul's would work, but would be more work...

[Szumo]

I'd prefer something simpler tbh.
Also, this system breaks in case of LA Ermor http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Not that any system based on starting pop bidding is good for LA Ermor. Perhaps LA Ermor position should be an exception that's given randomly, while all other nations are given according to bidding system?

[Evilhomer]

Ermor might not need gold to buy troops or pay upkeep. They do need gold to hire mercenaries, buy temples and fortress however. If you recall the start of perpetuality, LA ermor snatched each mercenary troop for the first turns - speeding up his expansion.

[Velusion]

Szumo said:
Also, this system breaks in case of LA Ermor http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Not that any system based on starting pop bidding is good for LA Ermor. Perhaps LA Ermor position should be an exception that's given randomly, while all other nations are given according to bidding system?



I'm not sure this matters at all. You'll be bidding against other players. Unless more than one player bidding on LA Ermor thinks it is ok to play with Zero pop (which, if they think that, they are crazy) there shouldn't be a problem.

[Salamander8]

It's an interesting bid system. It reminds me somewhat of WiF's bidding system where you bid from -20 to +X victory points which if you win a bidding round, you add that number to the selected country's VPs to win. Is this a straight-up bid? I.e. if you would start with 30,000 pop and bid -20 you would start with 29,980? Or is it in a representative denomination of a higher number?

[Velusion]

1 point = 1,000

[Salamander8]

Hmmm, very interesting. Would there be a cap on a positive bid then? The possibility of someone bidding a very large positive value on a 'bad' nation could be ugly.

[Evilhomer]

Each player submits a list of maximum ten nation bids, followed by a negative or positive number inside some interval, say between -30.000 and +10.000. A negative number means the population you are willing to give up, while a positive number is the bonus you want in order to play that nation.

[Salamander8]

Bah, I'm blind sorry. Thanks for that link. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

[Velusion]

If we do this I think the upper cap will probably be like 20 or 30.

Also if you fail to win a nation or select "random" you would get a random nation with an additional 10 points (10,000 pop) on top of the bid limit. Hopefully this will stop everyone from submitting a long list of nations exactly bid limit.

[Salamander8]

In Empires in Arms, you bid on all 7 nations, but all your bids had to be a different number. We may want to do something like that here.

[Aezeal]

In the start of the thread you said something about ending at turn 125.. well in my larger SP games by the time i'm getting my imprisoned pretender I've just barely started to interact with other players (mostly indie whacking till then) and that would be about 1/3 of the game already?

[Aezeal]

In the start of the thread you said something about ending at turn 125.. well in my larger SP games by the time i'm getting my imprisoned pretender I've just barely started to interact with other players (mostly indie whacking till then) and that would be about 1/3 of the game already?

[Evilhomer]

If you have not encountered any other nations by the time your imprissoned pretender breaks free, then you are expanding very slowly. In most multiplayer games most indies has been conquered by turn 10-12 or so. By turn 125 you will see huge empires with all research already done. They will have access to most good summons, like seraphs etc and they will have access to almost all magic paths. By this time your turns can take 1h+ time to finish if you are one of the top nations - basically this turn limit is not at all unreasonable.

[atul]

In a game like this the pace is going to be a bit faster. For comparision in Perpetuality the first nations had been reduced to their capitals by the time dormant pretenders started to wake up. That's like, after first ten turns. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif (EDIT: Beaten by evil, evil Homer.)

After thinking about bidding, I must say I don't like it. In the way that if you want something, you have to take a beating to get it. The lottery system in Perp was nice in the way that you either got what you wanted, or a consolidation prize (pop bonus). Easier for likes of me who actually don't know about nations enough to comfortably take negatives on them. But, just my opinion.

[Aezeal]

I have encountered them but usually I prefer not to attack them right away.. I guess I'm expanding reasonably well cus I'm usually nr 1 or 2

I guess you are placing pplz closer together than I'm used to ( I play with 8-9 on 250 province maps)

[BigandScary]

I know that we aren't choosing nations yet, but could we just sign up for the spots or something.I don't want to have read this forum for more than a month and then miss out on the game.

[Szumo]

Well, what about the idea of bidding with pretender points? Do you think it could work?

[Ubercat]

BigandScary said:
I know that we aren't choosing nations yet, but could we just sign up for the spots or something.I don't want to have read this forum for more than a month and then miss out on the game.



I agree. I'd love to get into this game but the only factions I feel that I have any kind of grip on are EA Mictlan, or maybe EA C'Tis or MA Marignon. If I got stuck with any of the others I wouldn't have much of a clue how to play them.

I guess if you can get 66 players experienced enough to tackle any of 66 different factions then you wouldn't need me anyhow.

-Ubercat

[Velusion]

Szumo said:
Well, what about the idea of bidding with pretender points? Do you think it could work?



I think that would work, but it would require a third party to do it and check *all8 the submitted pretenders - something I'm not willing to ask someone to do.

[Velusion]

atul said:
Easier for likes of me who actually don't know about nations enough to comfortably take negatives on them.



Thats true. I would imagine this would put newbies in a worse position than the old method.

I dunno. I sorta like Homer's suggestion in that it's sort of a game before the the game, but I guess I'm leaning back to some version of the standard selection both because it's very simple and it doesn't reward experience as much.

If I don't use Homer's suggestion here I'll probably use it in the next smaller game I host http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

[Velusion]

I'll probably officially open the forum for sign-ups in a week or so. The sign-up process will last exactly 1 week and then the players will have an additional 72 hours to upload their pretenders.

I'm sort of expecting that we won't fill up completely so I'll wait to reveal/create the map until I get a much better idea of how many we will have. Expect the map to have approximately 15 provinces per player and for the amount of water provinces to be proportional to the amount of water players.

[Jazzepi]

I am not interested in joining a game with an arbitrary time limit on it. That said, there was more discussion in this thread and never a final conclusion posted about what the game would be. Could you please make some sort of determination about that so that I can stop watching this thread if there is going to be one?

Jazzepi

[Velusion]

I've decided the game will now have a victory condition of holding 400 provinces for three turns.

As a reference, Perpetuality has a victory condition of the first player to hist 650 provinces wins.

I'll update the first post.

[Jazzepi]

I'm fine with the province win condition. I think that one works a lot better.

Jazzepi

[tibbs]

Province win should be good. But maybe we should set it as a percentage since you don't know how big the map will be. I really think 30% to 40% wouldn't be a bad number to shoot for.

[Xietor]

perpetuality has no victory condition.

If you have imposed one unilaterally, since you are in the game, I would suggest setting yourself to ai. I certainly will not recognize any victor in perpetuality if he achieves a victory condition imposed after the fact. Most especially one imposed by a current player who is near the lead in provinces.

[Velusion]

Xietor said:
perpetuality has no victory condition.




Yes it does. Look at the first post.

[Velusion]

tibbs said:
Province win should be good. But maybe we should set it as a percentage since you don't know how big the map will be. I really think 30% to 40% wouldn't be a bad number to shoot for.



It will be 40% unless we are significantly lacking in players.

[Xietor]

When was that added? I could have sword the game had zero victory conditions when the game started.

As a practical matter, if a race is a clear winner, people will concede anyway. But I am against victory conditions before a clear winner is established.

The player with 65% may not be able to win a victory over then player with 35% if they fought it out. Which makes it arbitrary.

[Velusion]

Xietor said:
When was that added? I could have sword the game had zero victory conditions when the game started.




It's been like that since before the game started.

[Xietor]

I apologize then. My memory is failing. I cannot remember voting on victory conditions. I do remember voting against arcane nexus, utterdark and bot however.

But I was not following the thread as closely then as I have been since.

[Velusion]

We are now accepting sign-ups! See the first post in this thread for details.

Nation Preferences/passwords will be due Oct 1st Noon
Pretenders will then be due on Oct 4th 9pm

Reminder: Don't sign up in this tread. See the first post for how to sign-up.

[Evilhomer]

Sure we should go with hard research ? People will have reached level 9 in all paths by turn 70 or so.

[Ubercat]

Evilhomer said:
Sure we should go with hard research ? People will have reached level 9 in all paths by turn 70 or so.



Turn 70? I've never finished all research by then on regular research. But then I'm a newb. How do you manage that? spend all your gold on mages instead of armies? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[Evilhomer]

Nah, you just expand fast = lots of gold income. Then you spam castles and mages.

[Velusion]

hard=difficult.

Thats what Perp is set to.

[FAJ]

I would like to join this game, but I don't have the time to sift through 10 pages; is this game still open? Is there any critical information not not held in the first post?

[Velusion]

First post is all that matters. We have plents of spots.

[Hadrian_II]

Evilhomer said:
Sure we should go with hard research ? People will have reached level 9 in all paths by turn 70 or so.



In perpetuality only you will have level 8 in all paths by turn 70. If i calculated it correct, it will cost 52080 research points to reach it and there are only 3 nations that crossed the border of 32000 rp where the stats stop.

[Evilhomer]

My point is that it's doable in that time to reach level 9 in all paths. Many nations however will have level 9 in several paths, and basically the magic that they need.

Point was just that for a more epic feel maybe very hard should be used. But I'm fine with the current,was just a thought....

[Hadrian_II]

But now there are just 20 nations left, if you put the research to very hard, most nations will be death, before they can use their strongest weapons.

[Velusion]

I've heard a number of complains about it taking too long to research things - so I'm not really inclined to make research even harder...

Don't worry Evilhomer - we'll make sure it takes you longer to max out on research this time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Xietor]

Post deleted by Xietor

[Lingchih]

Hmm. 15 signups for so far for the 62 nations. Methinks the megagame concept may have run it's course. Too bad, the first megagame has been a blast. I am surprised at the low turnout though. Surely, even if you are playing in other games, a new megagame is sexy enough to tempt you in.

[Xietor]

I do not see why we want to start another megagame when the 1st one is just getting interesting. I am in turn 100 plus in alpaca, turn 60 something in epic heroes, and perpetuality.

It is a bit too much for me to undertake a 4th game atm.

[Velusion]

Lingchih said:
Hmm. 15 signups for so far for the 62 nations. Methinks the megagame concept may have run it's course. Too bad, the first megagame has been a blast. I am surprised at the low turnout though. Surely, even if you are playing in other games, a new megagame is sexy enough to tempt you in.



Some people are mulling over their lists, plus it's the weekend... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

In any case I'm cool with however many we get. We filled up the original game much to many people's surprise - so this game is just icing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

[coobe]

if there is still room, id like to join even though i wont survive long http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Evilhomer]

I am pretty sure there is plenty of room left

[Kristoffer O]

How much time is spent in these games?

I think I would like to be in, but I also think I want to be crushed say in mid game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Meglobob]

Kristoffer O said:
How much time is spent in these games?



Its just like a normal game, time wise. Only the end game takes longer.

I believe by turn 70 there are only 20 out of 62 players left in Perpetuality. So the odds are you will be well dead before the end game. I died on turn 25'ish, cause I am rubbish. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

The banter at game start is fun, however, 62 voices... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

[Baalz]

Also there is no shame in letting somebody sub in for you if it gets to be too much. FWIW, I'm sure the 3-4 top players have quite a bit to manage, but being middle of the pack out of the survivors so far it's really no more effort than any other end game, and less effort than the games where I'm in the running for winning by end game.

[Xietor]

"I think I would like to be in, but I also think I want to be crushed say in mid game."

Well KO you should play one of the races getting a boost and see how it does. Of course you will have to talk velusion in delaying the start until the patch. He has ants in his pants!

[Kristoffer O]

Hmm, the patch is probably around the corner, but I'm not too keen on delaying the game if there are 62 players ready and waiting. Our comps are fixed, but we have to fetch them, compile the patch and release it for some beta before it's a go.

Still it would be fun if Fomoria was in the new game. MA Mictlan and TC can be updated after the game has started without any losses.

[Shuma]

I would play if the new patch was released. I'll wait for it.

[Velusion]

Kristoffer O said:
Hmm, the patch is probably around the corner, but I'm not too keen on delaying the game if there are 62 players ready and waiting. Our comps are fixed, but we have to fetch them, compile the patch and release it for some beta before it's a go.



If I hear that patch will be out in the next two weeks I'm open to waiting on starting - but otherwise we'll probably keep same the start time (this Monday).

Also it's looking doubtful we'll have a full game... I'm thinking around 40+ probably. As others have said - the time commitment isn't any more than another MP game - unless you end up being one of the top nations in the end game.

We will, of course, update to the patch the moment it comes out if we have already started.

[Xietor]

I do not see how you can bid intelligently on races that are being upgraded without seeing them 1st.

But my main issue is time. I see alpaca coming to an end(a pleasant one), in the next 2 weeks. If we can delay 2 weeks I am in-if not-not.

[Evilhomer]

Xietor the turns during the first 2 weeks takes almost no time or planning.

[Xietor]

Just planning what race i want takes time. Then planning my pretender takes time. and if i get a race i do not request playing test games to work out a strategy takes time.

[Evilhomer]

Just wing it a bit if needed. You know the mega games are fun and deep down you want to play http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Xietor]

I am way to competitive to "wing it." Wish I could. A casual player I am not.

[Evilhomer]

Well then just sign up with a list of nations that you are familiar with and know how to play. Put one that is not a high profile nation at the top of the list, should ensure you get a nation that you need no playtesting with.

edit: Of course if you do not wish to play thats another thing, don't wish to presure you or anything.

[Kristoffer O]

Xietor said:
I am way to competitive to "wing it." Wish I could. A casual player I am not.



You need to learn to chill! I can send in an application for you, and if you wish I can also create your pretender. Less angst that way http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif No obligations, no expectations, just play and make the best out of your deal.

[Xietor]

I know I need to learn to "chill." But I have never been able to do anything less than 100 percent(:

I am in late game in 3 games. I cannot start a 4th yet-though id love to. Alpaca could be over soon-if other races concede defeat. But if they fight to the last province-it could take 2 more months.

[Meglobob]

Its easy to chill in Sweden.

Hard to chill in New Orleans.

Thats why people with fire magic die sooner.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[thejeff]

It's also hard to chill, when you're going to be stuck with the bad pretender design and strategy for a long game.

Of course, if it's really bad your game may not be long...

[Kristoffer O]

Easier to chill when you're stuck. Nothing you can do anyway, so why not just chill http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Kristoffer O]

> Thats why people with fire magic die sooner.

Ha, liches with firemagic don't die sooner, they live forever - HAHAHAHAH.
And sometimes their addled brains are found and reinserted in their broken skulls. Then the Lord of Light, Persecutor and Destroyer of Youth will cleanse the world of evil.

[Evilhomer]

Go ahead and sign up you as well Kristoffer, the more the merrier as they say. Hopefully Xietor will come around before deadline.

[Kristoffer O]

I'm considering it. I also consider talking JK into joining. I'm just afraid I will not have time. My current MP game is slowly going downwards, so I might sign up.

[Thrawn]

I would like in on this, please sign me up. I have heard all kinds of tales from previous mega-game players. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Velusion]

To signup just follow the instructions in the first post http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Meglobob]

Kristoffer O said:My current MP game is slowly going downwards, so I might sign up.



Surrender now! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Don't drag out your inevitable defeat! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Would it help if I say pretty please? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Kristoffer O]

Bah! I have just found my lost brain. No way I quit now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Meglobob]

Kristoffer O said:
Bah! I have just found my lost brain. No way I quit now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Damn! You were doing pretty well without one.

[Xietor]

Post deleted by Xietor

[Velusion]

Everything is in the first post.

[Velusion]

Well it looks like the game won't be so mega (hehe) as we have about 20 signed up. Which is fine with me really.

If we stick under 25 people I'll go ahead and up the provinces needed for victory to 60%. We will keep 16 players per province.

Also FYI - as there aren't near as many players as in the past it's likely the pop bonus won't be so high for random nation allocations.

The Mod *should* be available on Sunday while the map will be revealed at the same time nations selections are.

[Xietor]

Post deleted by Xietor

[Velusion]

Xietor,

There will be no delay. Please stop asking.

[tibbs]

I am not really a fan of the mega game but this one looks like it will be smaller. I'll see if I can come up with a list and send it to you over the weekend.

Thanks

[Velusion]

Added a few more players to the list. 36 hrs left to signup!

P.S. Instructions for signing up are listed on the first post in this thread. If your name isn't on the first post you are not signed up!

[Evilhomer]

Maybe we should postpone the sign up deadline until next weekend - by then we might have more people and the new patch might be out.

[coobe]

I would like to sign up, but said this several posts ago...


hope there is still room ??

[Velusion]

coobe said:
I would like to sign up, but said this several posts ago...


hope there is still room ??



Follow the instructions on the first post.

[Evilhomer]

Coobe see post 1 on the first page for details on how to sign up. Or in short


How to Signup: Send me an email (velusion(at)sbcglobal.net) or PM with a list of your preferred nations. The list can be as long or as short as you like – you may even elect to be randomly assigned a nation. Also include your password for your nation in this email/PM. If you would like to get email notification when the game hosts make sure and give me your email address. Do not sign up in this thread! Be sure and include you password in your signup!

[Velusion]

Nations have been awarded! To see what you got look on the first post in this thread. To see in detail how nations were awarded check out: http://67.66.187.69/dominions3/Evermore_Seeds.html

As we got 28 players I've increased the winning province total to 60% (pretty much the standard in all my games).

Players have until 10pm Oct4th to upload their pretenders. Upload them to the following locations depending on the era your nation belongs to:
Early: 67.66.187.69 port: 10021
Middle: 67.66.187.69 port: 10022
Late: 67.66.187.69 port: 10023

The map is available here: http://67.66.187.69/dominions3/evermoremap.zip

A link to the mod (which isn't required to create/upload your pretender) will be put up soon.

DrP - I'd like to ask your assistance again in awarding all the pop bonuses (I'll send you a PM). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Hadrian_II]

I expected more competition on Lanka, but im happy to get it in the first round.

[DrPraetorious]

I still think this map has about 50% too much water http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif, but I'll manage.

Is there any support for pimping some of the provinces, yo?

[Lingchih]

Damn, I got MA R'lyeh. I'm going to be playing them in two games now at the same time. I should be really sick of them in a few weeks.

[GnomeNonsense]

Aw. A few hours late to the party. Serves me right for working!

[tibbs]

It's refreshing to see some of the less played nations in here. I even see someone picked MA Mictlan!

Hopefully the patch will even things up for them.

[Velusion]

tibbs said:
It's refreshing to see some of the less played nations in here. I even see someone picked MA Mictlan!

Hopefully the patch will even things up for them.



Well "pick" probably isn't right. They choose a random nation and were "Awarded" MA Mictlan http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

I do think the patch will help em out alot though.

[Jazzepi]

Yeah, I heard bad things about MA Mictlan. Looking at their mages, I don't really see what's so bad. They look exactly like EA Mictlan, but they get a N/S mage. Can someone explain where the shortcoming is at?

Jazzepi

[Lingchih]

tibbs said:
It's refreshing to see some of the less played nations in here. I even see someone picked MA Mictlan!

Hopefully the patch will even things up for them.



And no LA Ermor in the game. Yay!

[archaeolept]

Jazzepi said:
Yeah, I heard bad things about MA Mictlan. Looking at their mages, I don't really see what's so bad. They look exactly like EA Mictlan, but they get a N/S mage. Can someone explain where the shortcoming is at?

Jazzepi

All the traditional mictlan strengths, w/ none of that pesky blood to slow you down?

[Jazzepi]

Woops. There's no blood? x.x

Ack.

I just checked. How disappointing =\

Jazzepi

[Velusion]

So what is the patch supposed to do for MA Mictlan?

[Jazzepi]

I think they get access to air.

Jazzepi

[archaeolept]

air, but lose non-cap jaguars? i'm not sure they come out the best on the deal, as non-cap jags are all they have now... But i'm not sure.

ask for a mulligan? you can't update this game to the next patch after it has started, if mictlan does lose non-cap jags...

edit: eagle warriors everywhere? oh my... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[RamsHead]

I also believe that Eagle Warriors instead of Jaguar Warriors will be recruitable everywhere.

[Velusion]

archaeolept said:
ask for a mulligan? you can't update this game to the next patch after it has started, if mictlan does lose non-cap jags...




Sure you can http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Velusion]

DrPraetorious said:
I still think this map has about 50% too much water http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif, but I'll manage.




I know the map looks like a alot but:
15.75 water provinces per water player &
16.75 land provinces per land player

A lot more balanced than Perp... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


DrPraetorious said:
Is there any support for pimping some of the provinces, yo?



Though I like the idea for other types of games (The team games/varients) Evermore will stay standard.

[Lingchih]

I think it looks good... as long as Oceania is a good ways from me.

Is there a mod we are supposed to use?

[Jazzepi]

Velusion said:

archaeolept said:
ask for a mulligan? you can't update this game to the next patch after it has started, if mictlan does lose non-cap jags...




Sure you can http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Is it possible you could rerandom me? I really, really don't want to get stuck with a nation that's going to be completely different if we apply a patch midway through the game. I can't just imagine having a strong bless, and going from an army of jaguars to nothing =\

Jazzepi

[Velusion]

Jazzepi said:

Velusion said:

archaeolept said:
ask for a mulligan? you can't update this game to the next patch after it has started, if mictlan does lose non-cap jags...




Sure you can http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Is it possible you could rerandom me? I really, really don't want to get stuck with a nation that's going to be completely different if we apply a patch midway through the game. I can't just imagine having a strong bless, and going from an army of jaguars to nothing =\

Jazzepi



Normally I wouldn't - but since MA Mictlan is going to change around pretty significantly I can understand how it would be difficult to plan when aren't sure of the patch release date.

So... your new draw is...
LA Pangaea

[Velusion]

The mod is ready:

http://67.66.187.69/dominions3/mega-agev2.zip

Feel free to check it out and let me know if there are any problems.

[Szumo]

Is the mod exactly the same as in Perpetuality?

EDIT: diff says .dm file is the same. But banner directory is mega2, not mega. Either you've attached wrong file or that directory has wrong name.

[Velusion]

Szumo said:
Is the mod exactly the same as in Perpetuality?



Not quite. It has all the same stuff as the perp mod in addition to a slight increase in the costs of gem producing items.

You'll need the new one to play - but not to upload your pretender.

[Hadrian_II]

It looks like this mod will overwrite the one used by perpetuality, does this not pose some problems?

[Velusion]

Blah! Fixed the .zip. Extracting and overwriting with the incorrect .zip shouldn't have had any negative effects though.

Accept any overwrites. For example it doesn't change the flags (snes folder) so if you overwrite them it won't hurt.

[Ubercat]

Ok, I DL'd the mod. It seems a bit more complex than any other mods I have. There are 2 folders: mega2 and sns3, plus a file: mega-agev2.

Do I just dump them all into the mod folder as they are?

[atul]

Dumping into mod folder should work fine.

Hm, EA Oceania, I'd have thought someone else would've picked it also. Haven't actually ever played an underwater nation before, now it's again time for me to make a fool out of myself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Jazzepi]

atul said:
Dumping into mod folder should work fine.

Hm, EA Oceania, I'd have thought someone else would've picked it also. Haven't actually ever played an underwater nation before, now it's again time for me to make a fool out of myself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Huzzah! That's what these random picks are all about.

Jazzepi

[AlgaeNymph]

Velusion said:
How to Upload your Pretender:
You do not need to have the mod to create your pretender. Once created upload it to the following servers depending on what age your nation belongs to:
Early: 67.66.187.69 port: 10021
Middle: 67.66.187.69 port: 10022
Late: 67.66.187.69 port: 10023

I clicked "open" next to Vanhiem, and was told "Your god is now in control of Vanhiem." Am I right to assume I've done the procedure correctly?

[Jazzepi]

Yup. I believe if you've created more than 1 God for that particular era/nation it'll prompt you. Otherwise it'll just upload it.

Jazzepi

[Salamander8]

Not surprised I received EA R'Lyeh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Three of us starting in the water should prove interesting. I'm looking forward to another enjoyable megagame.

[Evilhomer]

Not really a mega game, maybe a large game however....

I do hope the map compensates for the fact that we only have 3 water players (not basing it on the full 7 that is)

[Velusion]

Evilhomer said:
Not really a mega game, maybe a large game however....

I do hope the map compensates for the fact that we only have 3 water players (not basing it on the full 7 that is)



We have four:
EA R'lyeh
EA Oceania
MA R'lyeh
MA Atlantis

[Evilhomer]

yeah my bad, a bit odd than none went for LA ermor or LA R'lyeh. Guess it's just as well..

I heard about a few late commers that wanted in, maybe we should give them random nation seedings among whats left (with that 20% bonus).

[Salamander8]

Velusion said:

Evilhomer said:
Not really a mega game, maybe a large game however....

I do hope the map compensates for the fact that we only have 3 water players (not basing it on the full 7 that is)



We have four:
EA R'lyeh
EA Oceania
MA R'lyeh
MA Atlantis


Oops yeah 4, missed 1 there the first glance.

[Lingchih]

Velusion said:

Evilhomer said:
Not really a mega game, maybe a large game however....

I do hope the map compensates for the fact that we only have 3 water players (not basing it on the full 7 that is)



We have four:
EA R'lyeh
EA Oceania
MA R'lyeh
MA Atlantis



Yes, it's going to be crowded in the water. I expect some early violence.

[coobe]

cant upload my pretender..... there is no naion to select on the late era port. why is that ? the other ports dont work either

[Yucky]

Deleted incorrect information.

[coobe]

when i connect to the middle era server, i cant upload because everyime i scroll down it scrolls right back up... really weird

[coobe]

ok now it works, no idea what happened before

[DrPraetorious]

All the start locations have >= 4 neighbors, and there are at least 3 provinces between each pair of start locations - by this criterion, I fit 27 *exactly*.

I placed the four water starts manually. The two which are in the "middle" of the water (i.e. have two water neighbors instead of 1) are also slightly less choked-off, so I think those are more or less fair.

The 23 land start locations were placed by my algorithm to minimize the variability in remoteness (the sum of the shortest path distance to all other start locations). Given that the map is not wrap-around, though, obviously it varies a lot.

I *could* give them another bonus. Possibilities include:
* Another slight pop boost for the least-remote land start locations (mentioned by Velusion).
* 1 or 2 of their neighbors could be made site-rich and/or large.
* I could give them +X% to the size of their initial army to help fend off their many bloodthirty neigbors.

Alternatively, the map is playable as-is. Should I post it or do people want their start locations kept secret (with the exception of the water, which is pretty obvious, I haven't peeked).

P.S. - Which nation #s are EA Tir and EA Lanka, again? I don't want to peek but I'll need to load up the map in order to check that I got them right otherwise http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[AdmiralZhao]

I think that if we keep the start locations secret it will make the early game more interesting and scouting more important. These are good things.

I would also vote for 1+ site-rich provinces for the nations that are in the middle. In previous games, I have found it to be a large advantage to have one or two borders that you don't have to defend.

[archaeolept]

the middle? that just means you have more directions in which to expand... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Velusion]

Ack! I just realised that FAJ made the seeding list but got left off the front page... I'm afraid there are actually 28 land players http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

My profuse apologies DR P!

[DrPraetorious]

I can fudge him in if I poke stuff by hand.

Vel - what, if anything, do you want me to do to the starts?

[Velusion]

Giving them one site rich province nearby is fine with me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Velusion]

Update: 19/28 pretenders uploaded!

[Aezeal]

Ah dammit to late to sign up.. well if there is a way to play let me know (PM) else I'll keep waiting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Szumo]

So, are we starting soon, as in today? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Velusion]

Depends on if the map is ready and everyone has uploaded thier pretenders. We had 21/28 when I checked this morning..

[DrPraetorious]

I'll figure out how to jam in another start locations when I get home this evening, which will be around 10ish Eastern Time.

[Velusion]

As far as pretenders there is just Thrawn and tibbs to go.

[DrPraetorious]

I just e-mailed the map to the last address you used to send me e-mails from (other than new-turn messages).

Let me know if that's not the right one.

--TNDP

[Aezeal]

Don't hesitate to mail me if in want for an additional player..

[Lingchih]

Is this game starting tonite?

[Velusion]

The deadline has passed. Only waiting on tibbs.

Aezeal - if tibbs doesn't respond by the end of tonight you can have his spot (shin 10%) if you'd like.

[archaeolept]

tibbs is seemingly awol in the just started dawn of war game... i'm guessing something in RL came up, or he lost internet for some reason. hopefully he shows up this evening