Space Monsters!!!

[Trachmyr]

Ok folks, I'm writing a mod for space monters... only need to finish the AI_const_vehicles, AI_DesignCreation, find componet/facility pics and get permission to use the Cephalopeia ship set.

But I have a question for you... Would you want a mod that is "error-trapped" OR one that is compatible with TDM???

Here's my quandry, right now it's compatible with TDM... it adds stuff, but dosen't change anything already there. But there *can* be some problems... if the monsters get ahold of tech their not suppose to (particularly ship construction) they might produce ships that aren't "right"... also their facilities are WAY overpowered if a human captures one (they are balanced for them though), this shouldn't be too easy as they are to produce lots of troops and most of their systems will have a "Change bad Intelligence -100%" ability... but it can happen.

The way to fix this is by going the P&N route and creating a "normal tech - racial trait" thus disallowing the space monsters the normal technology (and I wouldn't need to make such uber facilities to ensure that the space monsters use 'em and only them)... this is a bit of extra work on my part, and means that all empires will need to be "adapted", it dosen't take too long but it reduces compatiability.

What do you guys think?


Also, if you have/know of good "organic-looking" componets facility pics let me know... I need 'em and I'm not an artist!

[This message has been edited by Trachmyr (edited 08 July 2001).]

[Trachmyr]

Anyone? opinions? I'm almost done (just need a few componet pics, and get permission to use the ship set), and I need to know what the seiv comunity would prefer... a completely "non-abusable" mod or a stdandard seiv/tdm compatible mod.

Please let me know...

[PsychoTechFreak]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trachmyr:
... a completely "non-abusable" mod or a stdandard seiv/tdm compatible mod.

Please let me know...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would prefer the "non-abusable" Version. Otherwise -I guess- even if the human players are self-restrictive the monster techs could be found in ruins by the other AIs. OTOH, if your mod is not compatible with TDM then it could cause a lot of work -from your side http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif - every time when a new patch comes out ?

[Trachmyr]

thanks for the feed-back...


It won't be that abusable... all of the monster tech is a racial trait (although a 0 point one), but to make sure the "monsters" only use stuff from this tech I have to make their facilites (Larval Pool, Metamorphisis Nodes, Central Nervous Nexus and Organic Harvesters) "uber-facilites"... i.e., they produce alot more than their "non-monster" counterparts... but they have inherent disadvantages due to their culture setting that off-sets it. But if a human can capture one of their worlds, it could be abused.... I have them building alot of troops/fighters for defense and they get a 100% ground combat bonus and the first facility they build gives the "reduces bad intel" at 100% (I don't know if this actually works yet). They won't research/build normal stuff (even the ship sizes they use are non-standard (i.e., a small queen is 440KT a Large Soldier is 560KT) and the ai_design_creation file specifies these EXACT non-standard sizes) and they won't except trades/gifts (or any form of diplomacy) giving them the tech...

What I'm worried about is players doing their best to CAPTURE these worlds instead of glassing them... If I require all other empires to take a racial trait (0-point) of "Not a monster" (ala P&N), I can completely remove the monsters acess to normal stuff, thus I don't have to make their facilities "uber-facs"... but all empire files will have to be altered, both currently in se4/tdm and all future ones (not to mention requiring a larger .zip)

So now that I've explained it a bit further, what do you think... is the possibility of abuse remote enough that I can leave it like it is... or should I go ahead and create a "Normal" racialtrait and alter techarea.txt and all the .emp files?

[Phoenix-D]

Hate to tell ya, but I think if you add ANY new racial traits- even if the empire doesn't use em- the empires need to be redone.

As for human players capturing- they won't be able to build- you can't analyze racial techs, remember- so it wouldn't be THAT bad. Or.. hrm. I wonder if you could make the ships zero cost, then specifiy the planets to make one spaceyard/queen ship and abandon?

Phoenix-D

[Trachmyr]

Yep... just found that out, I got to make all new .emp files! great, and I thought I was almost done http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Oh, well... I guess I might as well do it the "safer way" now.

BTW, I know that the tech couldn't be analyzied... I was just afraid of humans getting ahold of a built-up hive... And I wish I could get them to abandon a colony, but there's no way to do it that I know of...

[TaeraRepublic]

Then try and create a self-destruct building for a planet -&gt; IF the planet gets captured, then all the facilities will self destruct

------------------
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[Q]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TaeraRepublic:
Then try and create a self-destruct building for a planet -&gt; IF the planet gets captured, then all the facilities will self destruct

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This would be a new ability and it is not possible for us to create new ones. Only MM can do this.

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This would be a new ability and it is not possible for us to create new ones. Only MM can do this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Self-destruct is not a new ability; putting it on a planet just hasn't been tried before.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If I require all other empires to take a racial trait (0-point) of "Not a monster" (ala P&N), I can completely remove the monsters acess to normal stuff, thus I don't have to make their facilities "uber-facs"... but all empire files will have to be altered, both currently in se4/tdm and all future ones (not to mention requiring a larger .zip)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I would be happy to add a "monster mod" mode to my AI Patcher program, and you could use it to patch your AIs quickly. The players could download it too, and patch the new AIs as they come out.

The addition would be only 6 lines of code or so, plus helpfile, if I add it on to what I've got already.
What I need to know is:
1) The exact spelling (including upper/lower case) of the racial trait.
2) Any help comments you want to add.
Everything else is already done.

Check my sig for a link to the AIPatcher.

------------------
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[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 09 July 2001).]

[Markavian]

I'm liking the sound of this monster patch.
If you want TDM compatability yo do need to change the EMP files and General_AI for all of them. However, you don't need to include all the bitmaps.

Alot of effort on your part, but you'll save the end user alot of effort, and thats apreciated &gt; makes you mod more sucessful http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.


Self destruct: Has anyone thoguht about destroying the whole planet?! I'm sure theres an option for that :-\ http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
Or maybe you could program the AI to do that after capture.
&gt; Monster AI aren't allowed to build planetary shield generators either in that case.

If you're not allowed to use the cehalopeia fleet just say 'You need to install this shipset first' go and download from here: http://universalshipyards.tripod.com
or from his brother's home site: http://se4kdy.cyberwars.com'

Then your will be titchy, about 200kb max, just for those AI updates and data files!

[Trachmyr]

Well good news! I got permission to use the shipset (and sound files!), so I'm now in the process of making 3 Versions:
1) Stock SE4
2) TDM
3) P&N


Suicide Junkie... your offer of the AI patcher is great! you'll save me a ton of work, changing all those AI_General files was a bit daunting...

Here's The Info:
All exisiting empires need to have: "Civilized Race" (without the quotes)
This will open racialtech area 10, for 0 points...
P.s., all tech areas with racialtech # set to 0 are changed to 10 for this mod.

If you could make 2 Versions, one for se4/tdm and 1 for P&N, I would be very thankful...

[Suicide Junkie]

Now, all of the AIs that are run through the patcher will get the civilized trait, so if you want one or two to be monsters, be sure not to patch those ones.

Hmmm. Looking back, I don't see an official name for the mod.
I've called it "Trachmyr's Space Monsters v1.0".

If you have a quick description of your mod for the readme, I can copy it from the forum.

Also, I have your mod listed as "supported but untested", so if it works great, tell me so I can update that.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If you could make 2 Versions, one for se4/tdm and 1 for P&N, I would be very thankful...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm more than willing to have any number of Versions, of any number of mods, supported by the patcher.
Now that I have the serious code done (read/write files, analyse lines), almost any mod can be added in less than 5 minutes.
Typing up the help entries takes up most of the time now http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif.

------------------
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[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 10 July 2001).]

[Trachmyr]

Well, as a lot of the mod comes from others... I don't want to put my name on it. Let's Call it SPACE-MONSTERS v1.0


Again, thanks a bunch... When I start the P&N Version I'll let you know...

[Suicide Junkie]

Changes done.

Do you have a description for the mod? Three or four lines for the readme, just so players can be sure they're using the right patch on their mod.
(This could be different for different Versions)

The uploaded files are just for updating my sig links, don't worry about the duplicate patcher zip.

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[Trachmyr]

Let's See... How about:

This Mod adds the most dreaded creatures in all known space... the Giant Ether Squids. These foul beast rampage through the galaxy infesting worlds with their larval spawn and feeding on unsuspecting ships. They said space was empty, they were wrong... for monsters lurk in it's darkness.

You Might want to call the patcher: SJsAI_MonsterPatcher v1.0

P.s. Just for clarification, this patcher is for Stock SE4/TDM NOT P&N, correct? Hopefully, Space Monsters can be made a permanent feature of the next P&N Version, thus no seperate patcher would be needed to add Space Monsters to P&N.

[Suicide Junkie]

Just Re-updating the links with the latest changes (only affects the readme, not the EXE)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You Might want to call the patcher: SJsAI_MonsterPatcher v1.0

P.s. Just for clarification, this patcher is for Stock SE4/TDM NOT P&N, correct? Hopefully, Space Monsters can be made a permanent feature of the next P&N Version, thus no seperate patcher would be needed to add Space Monsters to P&N.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Since I have to include modified AIs for P&N v2.0 anyways, when I add the Space Monsters, the monster AI would just be bundled in. The AIPatcher is just for adding extra AIs that I haven't dealt with yet.

The AI patcher is one program for all mods.
You use a pull-down menu to select anything other than the default P&N v2.0, and it will patch any classic SE4 AI into the mod of your choice.

There are currently four settings in the patcher, PiratesMod, P&Nv1.2+, P&N v2.0, and SpaceMonsters v1.0.
All of these mods are serviced by the one (and only) AIPatcher.exe

Click "Mode", then the mod of your choice.
The next time you hit "patch AI", it will do the changes required by the mod you have selected.

Sorry for the long-winded spew above http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.
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[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 10 July 2001).]

[Trachmyr]

Hey just started using it... it's VERY helpful (Now if you could only get it to generate .emp files http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif).

Sorry bout the "dumb" suggestions, I hadn't tinkered with it yet, didn't know it was an all n' one kinda program.

Well, again thank-you... it'll save me a good deal of time.

[Trachmyr]

SJ, just wanted to thank you again.... The aipatcher worked great!

As a side note, found a quick (subjectivly) way to make .emp files:

Step one: Make sure all empires have a "quick-start" entry in settings.txt

Step Two: make sure all AI_General files are patched

Step Three: Make(or copy the old ones) .emp files in the empires directery... they don't have to work or have any info what-so-ever, renamed txt files will work as will the old non-working .emp's.

Step Four: Start SE4 and do the following for each empire...
1) Quick-start a game
2) Set the password (to "1" for instance)
3) Save the .emp file under a tempoary name (i.e., first 3 letters of the empire)
4) select a NEW GAME, and repeat for the next empire

Step Five: In the Setup for a new game (not quick-start), load all the tempoary .emp's and for each do the following:
1) Select edit & remove the password
2) Select the Designname.txt file (this is the only entry that AI_general.txt dosen't specify, either write down the correct ones or choose appropriate ones)
3) Create the empire and Save it to the Permanent file (This removes the AI's intial ship designs that were in the temp. .emp file)

Step Six: go to the empire directory and delete all the temp. .emp files.

Although this is a bit long, it's quicker than cut & Paste or remembering/writing all the entries... one problem, it only works for 2K setup, you'll still have to hand do 3K & 5K Versions.

Hope that info can help you!

[Lastseer]

If you want to make it so that players/AI can't take the space monster's hive planets, give them a facility that give +10000% ground combat. Their militia will make conquest nearly impossible, forcing players to bomb their planets into oblivion. (The facility should be pretty high in their priority, so you can't take a hive planet after they build the other goodies but before they their anti-ground stuff). Just make it cheap to build.

[Taqwus]

To prevent capture, you'd also have to either ban intel entirely, or make the monster race in such a way that they don't have planets.

Otherwise, there'll be a planet path, and they will be vulnerable to CI/PPP. (And CI applying to, oh, a giant space squid is just... weird. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif) If you give them powerful intel to defend, they'll probably also use that to attack -- which is also rather odd.


------------------
-- The thing that goes bump in the night

[Phoenix-D]

Well, the squids don't use the normal tech tree, right?

You could make their ground defense facility *also* provide massive amounts of intel points, but make it so they only research that- and that tech gives them the best Counter Intel level ONLY. So they can't attack with intel- no projects to do it with.

EDIT: here's any example.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Name := Squid CI
Description := Defensive preparations within an empire to prevent enemy intelligence operations. Counter-Intelligence will prevent attacks while it is in progress.
Group := Defense
Cost := 500000
Type := Intelligence Defense
Effect Amount := 3
Num Source Messages := 1
Source Message 1 := Our counter-intelligence operations have prevented intelligence attacks by the [%TargetEmpireName].
Num Target Messages := 1
Target Message Title 1 := Intelligence Project Defeated
Target Message 1 := One of our intelligence projects against the [%SourceEmpireName] was defeated by counter-intelligence defenses.
Source Picture := IntelSabotageByUs
Target Picture := IntelSabotageByUs
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Squid Protection
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then just make it so "squid protection" also only gives the ground defense/intel facility, and makes sure they can't/won't get applied intel.

Phoenix-D

[This message has been edited by Phoenix-D (edited 10 July 2001).]

[Taqwus]

Nifty idea... could be turned into a racial trait for intelligence near-immunity, even (could it be overwhelmed with lots of ops? Hrm.). In this particular case, I'd suggest using a sillier message, 'tho.

"Squid. Squid. Squid. Your spy. Which one doesn't belong?"

Or something to that effect. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

[Trachmyr]

Good idea phoenix, right now one of their facilities uses the "Reduces Bad Intel" at -100%, but I'll but in the CI only intel production as add'l security.

BTW, there is no way for them not to use planets... ALL races start with a planet and no ship.

Well, the facilities are not so powerful now for humans... so I'm not too worried about intel. I'm still concerned with psychic's ability to subvert the squids.

Does anyone know if a ship is vunerable to computer viruses and allegance subverters if it has a bridge/lifesupport/crew AND a master computer?

[Trachmyr]

I didn't that there was a "change ground defence" ability, but I see it in abilities.txt. That's great, does anyone know if it actually works though? And what the maxinum value it can use.

As a side note, I discoverd that If I changed ground combat in culture.txt, any percent greater than the max allowed by settings.txt (in this case 150) is ignored, same with all the culture values... I wanted to make them produce NO minerals/radioactives, so I set production value to -50%, Minning/refining to 50% and farming to 150%... but no dice, they still had a min. value of 50%. Similar problem with maintainence... I wanted to change culture.txt so the space monsters have 25% maintaince bounus, and change all their ships to have a modified maintence cost of 900%.... thus if they were subverted by psychic races, they would cost 10x to maintain! But the creatures value is a min of 5% (as per settings.txt), so they wound up paying 10x5%=Twice normal! I can put this idea back in BUT I would have to alter settings.txt to allow a max maintance reduction of 25% (no maintaince)...

Still considering it, what do you guys think? Should I alter settings.txt to protect monsters from being abused by psychic races BUT allow players to abuse it by setting maintance reduction to 25% OR should I leave it alone? Give me you opinions please!

Oh, SJ... I kinda feel dumb now, your way would work alot faster! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

The way I usually generate .EMP files is:

1) Start a random game, max AIs, no Neutrals.
2) On turn one, set all AIs to human control.
3) As each AI takes its turn, "Save Empire"

If the AIs were patched by my patcher, that is the end of it. If not, then:

4) Start a new game, "Add Existing Empire", then edit and add the required normal/civilized/etc. traits.
5) Save Empire again.

It goes pretty fast that way.

------------------
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[Trachmyr]

Well the ground combat ability dosen't seem to be working (atleast in the simulator), gonna have to rely on lots of powerful troops.

[ZeroAdunn]

Couldn't you make a custom shipsize that requires no bridge or life support or AI? would it still be capturable?

[capnq]

Rather than using ZeroAdunn's suggested custom shipsize, what if you gave the squids a "Squid Brain" component that functions like a Master Computer? The MC bug with the psychic races is supposedly fixed. I've never encountered a computer virus in the game, so I don't know whether it would affect this squid brain.

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

[Puke]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by capnq:
Rather than using ZeroAdunn's suggested custom shipsize, what if you gave the squids a "Squid Brain" component that functions like a Master Computer? The MC bug with the psychic races is supposedly fixed. I've never encountered a computer virus in the game, so I don't know whether it would affect this squid brain.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

why not just give it all the abilities for bridge/crew/lifesupport? i think it would be cool if a race could psychially enslave a space monster. sort of like Dune, but not really. if the tech is on racial traits, you cant analyze it for anything.

if you want it to be immune to psychics and to computer viri, make the brain equal to a few dozen crew quarters. psychic take overs are based on the crew capacity of the ship. you could also build in a self destruct function. sure, if the brain goes then it could be captured (psychic or boarding party). what does that get you? a squid corpse in space? you cant repair any of the components, so it does not do any good aside from a trophy.



------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

[Suicide Junkie]

Adding multiple lifesupport or crew quarters abilities gives you no effect. The max is one per component.

If you make the brain an MC with more hitpoints that the most powerful Virus wepaon, it won't be damaged by those weapons.

Psychic allegiance subverters have a success rate equal to the damage rating, in percent.

IE 60 damage = 60% chance of takeover, but only if the shot hit the ship.

Crew Quarters have no effect on the A.S. They do, however, have a built-in 16 points of defence against boarding parties.


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[Puke]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
Crew Quarters have no effect on the A.S. They do, however, have a built-in 16 points of defence against boarding parties.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have used dreadnaughts with 3 large mount A.S.es with religious tallismans. they almost always bring down ships dreadnaught size and lower. against starbases, they usually have about a 50% success rate, not per weapon, for the entire volley.

that is just from observation, i dont know how the code in the game handles it. this was also back on Version 1.30

[Egregius]

So where can I download this wonderfull mod? =)

All I've found in the mod section was the neomod, but that modded a whole lot more, and gave me range-check errors when checking for shipsizes. Also the space-monsters didnt tech up, and I heard someone mention they had a mod where the space-monsters teched up slowly? (probably with the research generated by their homeworld).

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I have used dreadnaughts with 3 large mount A.S.es with religious tallismans. they almost always bring down ships dreadnaught size and lower. against starbases, they usually have about a 50% success rate, not per weapon, for the entire volley.<hr></blockquote>Interesting...was this under standard SE4?
Also, did you see that effect in the simulator as well? (it makes testing much easier http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

[Puke]

yes to the first question, and 'i didnt try' to the second one. of course, i cant swear to the range i was at. so in hind sight, the success may have been dependant on my range. it would be worth trying at various ranges, but i CAN tell you that sometimes the first hit at a range would not work but the second or third one would.

to be honest, i have been so put off by the ineffectiveness of psychic techs compared to their research costs, that i have not fooled with them in a long time.

[Skulky]

I am wondering where i coudl get this great addition? and is it actuallyin P&N because i didn't see the ability to be a monster/have monsters in your game. I also think to offset the talisman maybe pyshic or some other racial trait could have a really great ECM device.

[Fyron]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I also think to offset the talisman maybe pyshic or some other racial trait could have a really great ECM device. <hr></blockquote>

That would not help against ships with talismans. A ship with a talisman on it always hits, regardless of the ECM of the target.

[Captain Kwok]

Dudes,

Although I think space monsters would be fun, and I don't think they'll ever be included in SE IV in any official capacity. Let's hope they'll pop in SE V though!

[Puke]

maybe not officially in se4, but they can be modded very effectively. maybe if you gave their hulls the emissive armor ability with a threshold of about 150 points of damage. you would have to take them out with capital ships, and they would be almost unstopable in the early game. maybe as they tech up, their newer hulls would have higher thresholds so you would need 900+ damage to hurt them late in the game. you would have to use dreadnaughts with WMGs or PSPs or the like.

[Puke]

okay okay okay. there are alot of ideas for space monster races out here. i think we should make a SPACE MONSTER MOD that puts them all together into a MONSTER MASH scenario. make 4 or 5 monster races using the ideas described here. one could be the big nasty organic monsters, another could be the super stealthy undetectable monsters, another could be the ones with psychic abilities and boarding parties and shield depleters all built in. yet another could be crystaline space monsters..

throw them all together into a scenario and put it on team mode. if they dont expand past their one homeworld, the monsters should not fight each other (angry values should not increase, as there would be no contested systems). your goal would be to survive and eradicate the space monsters. difficulty could be ramped up for multiplayer games by optionally giving the space monsters cultures with things like +200% traits to make them that much harder. of course they would have to be non-treaty making xenophobes.

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>maybe if you gave their hulls the emissive armor ability with a threshold of about 150 points of damage<hr></blockquote>You would not require large capital ships with WMGs, but rather a stack of fighters.

50 Fighters with DUC I's can do 1000 damage per shot, as far as emissive armor sees it.

In one game, I was using Very Heavily shielded large fighters, that could destroy an AI baseship in three shots, and lose only one or two fighters.
(I had organic & religious, so 100% to-hit, plus lightning rays did almost 1200-1500 damage using only 30-40 fighters)

[Puke]

well, religious fighters are not exactly standard.. and even so, having a super stack of fighters would require about as much effort as having a dreadnaught, and its plauseable that a fighter swarm would overwhelm a space monster where as ships would not. i think the idea is still worthwhile wither or not it takes a dreadnaught or 50-100 large fighters.


besides, maybe one of the breeds of monsters would have massive PD abilities. any takers? im up for helping out on building the tech tree for the mod, but i cant script AI for a darn.

[Rollo]

Puke,
I was thinking of (perhaps) adding space monsters to the Devnull Mod. Just one monster race for now to check it out and test it. I can do all the AI scripting, so if you are willing we can do this together. What we would need to do at start is make some kind of "battle plan" and nifty ship/component ideas for the monsters.

Oh, and a warning: I don't have a lot of time at the moment, so the whole thing is probably going to move rather sloooooowww.

Rollo

[geoschmo]

Ok, as far as making Monster planets harder to conquer...

I can confirm the ground defense ability does not work for facilities. I tried doing that when we were working out ways to toughen up planets in general.

Options:

Make a monster culture with bonuses to ground combat.

Raise the strength characteristric.

Build lot of troops. With monster tech you can make some really tough troops. This is kind of a waste of resources since they can be toasted from orbit. But you can make a monster-only weapon platform that is small (troop size) but has a lot of tonnage structure, and heaavily armored. Make them tough enough and yo can't bLast the troops from orbit, if the troops are strong enough you can't conquer the planet.

Give the monters another racial trait that is similer to the advanced storage racial trait, but with as hign as a percentage as will allow. The population expands on the homeworld, more population means mreo militia, and militia can;t be killed from orbit, without glassing the planet. Also with uber-adv storage, you can have more monster plats and monster troops.

If you do ALL of these together, that should make the planets unbeatable by anything but glassing.

Geoschmo

[geoschmo]

Also,

What exactly is the concern with monster planets being captured? What is it about the facilities that makes them so valuable?

Maybe you are planning this already, I didn't see it discussed, but you can make the monster ships self replicating (construction ability) and negative maintenance (old P&N mod did this IIRC) and the monsters won't be dependant on planets to survive. Make the planets ordinary, if they are captured, no big woop. And once they are captured or killed then the monster ships become impervious to intel attacks.

Actually that's good. Monster ships could build copies of themselves. But the planets (monster nurseries) can build them much faster. So the incentive for the players is to get the planets as quick as possible to cut down on the numbers, and then hunt down the ones that got away.

Although, I am not sure the monsters will attack your ships once there planets are gone, because they won't have any reason to get angry anymore. They might just go idle.

Geoschmo

[Phoenix-D]

IMO they shouldn't use planets at all if possible. Because if they use planets they show up in the politics screen, and the intelligence screen, and that's just weird http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The hard part I think would be the AI, assuming no hard-code changes to allow it.

Phoenix-D

[Gryphin]

When I played the miniature Version of Star Fleet Battles monsters were always a pleasant unknown factor. In one senario It was Federation, Lyran, Ferengi, and a large unknown black moddle I made from scraps and stuff. It was at least twice the size of the largest crusier. During the inevitable slugfest between the Feds and the Lyrans, the Ferengi manged to tow it away. The "monster" was just a huge empty hulk whose value was less than that of fule spent dragging it. Even though the "moster" was harmless, it gnerated uncertainty and caution in the minds of otherwise overly bold players. In short, a monster that did nothing but patrol a system would be interesting and frustrating surprise.
Other types of monsters might be ones with nothing but Point Defence Cannons, or masive Shields and a few Capital Ship Missles. The goal would not be to create a dangerous or hard to kill ship, but rather an unknown element. this uncertainty in the minds of players would be compounded by the knowledge that is "Could" be a "Planet Killer".

[ 17 January 2002: Message edited by: Gryphin ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

They have to start with a planet, even if it has no facility tech to build starting facils on it. SE4 always gives you a homeworld.
However, given a space yard to start with, and multiple races, they should kill off each other's homeworlds, leaving only the space borne monsters.

[Puke]

without a planet, they go idle and dont fight. they will have a single cloaked planet (cloaking facility or starbase) and not be able to colonize beyond that.

Rollo, im up for it if you are. drop me an email (my address should be visible to the forum here) and we can get started on a preliminary draft of what we will be doing.

[Egregius]

Well since I was dieing for a monster-mod, I started building my own.

I took the only basis I could find: some components and shipsizes from the neomod. Excellent way of covering stuff, but I enhanced a lot of stuff.

The mod gives you 'space monster' as special ability, I made it number 7 as I gave borg borg-tech as racial too. 'Space monster' gives the holder space monster-tech, which starts at level 1 (which is currently also the max level).

Space monster tech gives 4 shipsizes: small, medium, large and gargantuan space monster, with various sizes (the big one is BIG). In the mod they indicated to special pictures, but I just used standard shipsizes to be compatible with TDM so I wouldnt get a range-check error. I also used the Cephalopeia shipset, but the Species 8472 set works brilliantly as well.

The special vehicle sizes have the special 100% maintenance reduction.

The components consists of organic-cost-only comps (all just one level techs):
Organic Armor - gives supplies per turn
Central Neural Complex - Acts as bridge, but I added 1000 defense turrets power and self-destruct power so space-monsters wont be boarded.
Internal Organs - Life support, added regenerative capabilities to this one, as first all components had it which we know is bugged if one type gets destroyed.
Connective Tissue - Crew Quarters
Organic Gravitational Core - Engine with big movement, only one allowed
Plasma Bolt, Lightning Ray, Enveloping Acid Globule - weapons
Reproductive Organs - Acts as spaceshipyard!
Senses - attack bonus and long range scanner
Chambers - Cargo
Planet Killer - http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Supply Reservoirs - supply
Gravitational Warp Heart - Open and close warppoints
Harvester - Important ability: to harvest organics!

I loved these ideas from the author of the neomod. Had to tweak one another, but still. Made an AI that wont make treates, but will only get angrier (I hope).

What I still need is a speechfile with everything garbled (shouldnt be that hard), a way to make the AI not build anything except the monster vehicle sizes, so they dont build colony ships, and a way to make the AI use ONLY the monster tech, not anything else (thus any research they do should be moot). And to figure out how to get the ai to actively harvest organics from various places while spawning new vehicles from there.
And a way to get them to attack occasionally, but not all-out suicidal, with or without home-planet.

Maybe I'll make the space monster tech multi-levelled so they build up to bigger space-monsters as they progress (as long as they got their homeworld), and make their weapons evolve.

Oh and is there a way to add master computer capability to a component without confusing the AI (thus that the AI still uses internal organs and connective tissue).

[ 18 January 2002: Message edited by: Egregius ]</p>

[jimbob]

Space monsters = Great!

Egregius, it would be good if the monster planet (pref. hidden) was capable of research. Then the monsters could get tougher and tougher as time goes on... a challenge even into the end game.
And to keep the monsters alive longer, give them very strong planet based shielding from the get-go... even if they are discovered, the most a player can do is intercept the enemy ships as they're manufactured... er, born.

For the resource gathering, I'd imagine that the monsters would also remote mine unoccupied planets and asteriod belts, but with very high efficiency. This would reduce the value of the planets as they went, which would make the game more challenging for human players... just imagine, giant space cows grazing the moons of Patueria IV!
[Edit] And the Great Vaccume-Elk Herd from the Jasperitis Nebula leaving random scatterings of explosive scat/poop (mines) throughout the Banffia system as they migrate to Kananasky XII [end Edit]

The mod(s) sound great, and I'm really looking forward to them,

Skol,
jimbob

[ 18 January 2002: Message edited by: jimbob ]</p>

[Fyron]

Do you guys know how to make a cloaked planet? If not, then I can tell you.

[geoschmo]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Do you guys know how to make a cloaked planet? If not, then I can tell you.<hr></blockquote>You can put it in a nebulae with level 5 obscuring.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Egregius:What I still need is a speechfile with everything garbled (shouldnt be that hard),<hr></blockquote>Change the sppech file. Easy, as you said. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> a way to make the AI not build anything except the monster vehicle sizes, so they dont build colony ships, and a way to make the AI use ONLY the monster tech, not anything else (thus any research they do should be moot).<hr></blockquote>This is also not too much of a problem. The colony ships part is easy. Simply remove any designs calling for colony components. The other stuff is nto as simple, but it can be done. You could do it through the ship designs as well, but it will take some trial and error to keep it from choosing standaard components in csome cases. You can also do the idea mentioned before where every non-monster has a special non-monster racial trait. That way the monsters wouldn't have any access to the non-monster components. That would be less trial and werror, but a lot more work, unless you use a patching program like SJ has. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>And to figure out how to get the ai to actively harvest organics from various places while spawning new vehicles from there.
And a way to get them to attack occasionally, but not all-out suicidal, with or without home-planet.<hr></blockquote>These two I am not too sure about. I have heard that the AI won't do remote mining beacuse of a bug. Never tested it myself. Also the ai not doing anythign after there planets are destroyed may not have a solution outside of a patch.

Geoschmo

[ 18 January 2002: Message edited by: geoschmo ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>And to keep the monsters alive longer, give them very strong planet based shielding from the get-go... even if they are discovered, the most a player can do is intercept the enemy ships as they're manufactured... er, born.<hr></blockquote>3 words: Null Space Projector http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Egregius]

"You can also do the idea mentioned before where every non-monster has a special non-monster racial trait. That way the monsters wouldn't have any access to the non-monster components. That would be less trial and werror, but a lot more work, unless you use a patching program like SJ has."

I'll stick to figuring out design creation =)

BTW can't you just add a cloaking device (level 4, so late game they can be found) to the homeworld, and put it in the standard space-monster tech and the standard homeworld construction?

[ 18 January 2002: Message edited by: Egregius ]</p>

[oleg]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
3 words: Null Space Projector http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif <hr></blockquote>

As I remember from separate discussion, planets (weapon platforms at least) do not have separate shields, all shield and armour points go directly to the structure. Because of this, organic and crystall armour and shield regenerators do not work, but as a benefit, null-space and pnase-polaron beams lose shield-piercing.

Oleg.

[Egregius]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gryphin:
Just wondering:
Would Space Monsters attack each other? If so, would you want to or could you design this out of them? I think I dreamed about this Last night.<hr></blockquote>

Not unless you make two different space monster-races. I can imagine a crystalline space-monster race, but question would be how they would be different from the Cryslonites themselves.

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>As I remember from separate discussion, planets (weapon platforms at least) do not have separate shields, all shield and armour points go directly to the structure. Because of this, organic and crystall armour and shield regenerators do not work, but as a benefit, null-space and pnase-polaron beams lose shield-piercing.<hr></blockquote>Sort of... Platform shields become planetary internals, but planetary shields remain shields.
You can make the planetary shields phased, but null space will always skip them.
Platforms and defending troops/militia will get damaged by null space, and then troops can be dropped to capture the planet.

The platforms might not be replaced by the AI, and facilities can still be destroyed.

Is it possible to make a level 5 planetary/sector cloak part of a facility? If not, put it on thier bases, so that players can only destroy monster infrastructure with a nova bomb (sun buster)

[Gryphin]

Egregius, Yes, that is what I ment. If there were more than one space monster race. I guess it never occured to me that there would be just one. Just thinking outside the envelope.

[Gryphin]

Just wondering:
Would Space Monsters attack each other? If so, would you want to or could you design this out of them? I think I dreamed about this Last night.

[Rollo]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
...Is it possible to make a level 5 planetary/sector cloak part of a facility? If not, put it on thier bases, so that players can only destroy monster infrastructure with a nova bomb (sun buster)<hr></blockquote>

Haven't checked myself, but I read (somewhere) that sector cloak doesn't work on facilities.

Making a sun destroyer the only means of killing the monster planet seems like the best solution. Totally gets rid of the capture problem.

I am currently running some preliminary test with monsters. Looks pretty good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Rollo

[Egregius]

So planetary cloaks dont work? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

What then? You could only put them in a nebula with a map-editor, and that wouldnt work for random games.

[Phoenix-D]

Sector cloak on a base, then.

Phoenix-D

[geoschmo]

I don't believe that works either. Sector cloak only works for storms IIRC. Someone talked about a way to make a storm during the game that would have cloak ability. If you do a search yo9u may turn something up. I can't remember how they did it exactly.

Geoschmo

[Fyron]

Sector cloaking on a component placed on a base works perfectly. It makes the planet, and everything in orbit around it, disappear from sight. Also, if your ships happen to enter a sector that is cloaked by an enemy, your ships will also disappear.

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Also, if your ships happen to enter a sector that is cloaked by an enemy, your ships will also disappear.<hr></blockquote>Woah, really? The cloak-er race can still see their own ships, can they also see the enemy ships that they are cloaking?
That could be a very nasty trap: place the cloak on a wormhole exit, and any ships that go through are lost, but still pay full maintenance!
After the first time that happens, a human would chain orders so the ships don't stop there...
Would entering a minefield clear orders?
BwaHaha http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Rollo]

I think that is a misunderstanding. Of course your ships do not disappear. Just like in nebula you can still see your own ships. But if you have a ship above the monster planet (with sector cloak), the monsters cannot see you (again, same as in a nebula).

Rollo

[geoschmo]

Ok, well I stand corrected. If this works then its simply a matter of adding a base design for the monster race including the sector cloak component and making that base a high priority for them to build. As long as they get it built before the planet is discovered then the planet should be safe. Even if they dont' get it built before being discovered, once it's built the others can't attack without sufficent sensor capability to defeat the cloak. You can make the sector cloak level higher than any available sensor and you will have a permanent unbeatable cloak too. Planet will be safe for ever, unless they scrap the base.

Unless for some silly reason the AI doesn't know to turn on the cloaking device. Has that been tested?

Geoschmo

[AJC]

I created the sector cloak in my mod about 6 months ago - It is a base component, there is a thread floating around somewhere when I was discussing it.. It is in the MOD1 mod on the DL site. I have been refining the AI use of fighter missiles for the mod.
I found that there were problems with sector cloaks. You would mask the enemy ship on your turn if he moved into the same square. My solution was to allow the sector cloak to detect cloak vessels up to the level of the sector cloak.

There was a situation created by doing this however - if a cloaked ship moves into your square with the cloaked planet, they detect each other.

Also - you cannot sector cloak warp pts or stars.
Only asteroids, planets and anything the base is with in that square..
I also found that it was unbalancing, if the vessel that had a sector cloak, moved . Thats why I limited them to bases. They are very powerful.

In my mod - hyperoptics III will detect the Stellar cloak.

the first one listed is the researched component the second was the artifact Version in my mod.

Name := Stellar Cloaking Device I
Description := Cloaking device used to cloak a sector of space.
Pic Num := 247
Tonnage Space Taken := 40
Tonnage Structure := 40
Cost Minerals := 200000
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 100000
Vehicle Type := Base
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := One Per Vehicle
General Group := Shields
Family := 2800
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 4
Tech Area Req 1 := Cloaking
Tech Level Req 1 := 3
Tech Area Req 2 := Shields
Tech Level Req 2 := 10
Tech Area Req 3 := Physics
Tech Level Req 3 := 4
Tech Area Req 4 := Stellar Manipulation
Tech Level Req 4 := 6
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Sector - Sight Obscuration
Ability 1 Descr := Renders all vehicles and/or planets within sector invisible to normal sensors. Prevents level 4 scans.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 5
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Sensor Level
Ability 2 Descr := Cloaked vessels and enemy mine fields can be detected while stellar cloak is active.
Ability 2 Val 1 := EM Active
Ability 2 Val 2 := 5
Weapon Type := None


Name := Sector Cloaking Device
Description := Cloaking device used to cloak a sector of space.
Pic Num := 248
Tonnage Space Taken := 20
Tonnage Structure := 40
Cost Minerals := 100000
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 50000
Vehicle Type := Base
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := One Per Vehicle
General Group := Shields
Family := 2900
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Sector Cloaking Device
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Sector - Sight Obscuration
Ability 1 Descr := Renders all vehicles and/or planets within sector invisible to sensors. Prevents level 3 scans.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 4
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Sensor Level
Ability 2 Descr := Cloaked vessels can be detected while sector cloak is active.
Ability 2 Val 1 := EM Active
Ability 2 Val 2 := 4
Weapon Type := None

[ 21 January 2002: Message edited by: AJC ]</p>

[Phoenix-D]

If I remember correctly from my tests, sector cloaks don't *have* an on/off switch. That only works for ship cloaks.

(fighters, FYI, work the same way with ANY type of cloak- the cloak is always-on)

Phoenix-D

[AJC]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
If I remember correctly from my tests, sector cloaks don't *have* an on/off switch. That only works for ship cloaks.

(fighters, FYI, work the same way with ANY type of cloak- the cloak is always-on)

Phoenix-D<hr></blockquote>

Mothballing the base - turns the cloak off!

[geoschmo]

Yep, I just tested this and there is no on/off for sector cloaks. They are always on.

Soemthing odd I found too was if the monsters planet is cloaked, then encountering other ships does not trigger a first contact. The monster ship has to actually come across a planet of another race to make contact. This could affect your a mod where the AI controls the monsters, so you need to take it into account.

Cloaks on fighters? According to the abilities file the sector cloak does not work on units, so I didn't even test it. If it does you could make the monster cloak a sattelite instead of a base. If you wanted that is.

Since it's so easy to cloak you could really make the Monsters tough if you let them colonize. Can you imagine stopping them as they spread acroos the quadrant? Everytime they plant another colony, it disapears!

Geoschmo

[Phoenix-D]

I meant regular cloaks for fighters, not sector http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Since it's so easy to cloak you could really make the Monsters tough if you let them colonize. Can you imagine stopping them as they spread acroos the quadrant? Everytime they plant another colony, it disapears!<hr></blockquote>OOOH... Cool scenario type thingy: a space-time experiment gone wrong, and the universe slowly collapsing around you and your neighbours. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif
Now that I think about it, there was a ST:TNG episode about that sort of thing.
Heh. When the universe shrunk smaller than the length of the ship, and the forward hull ceased to have ever existed:
Computer: Explosive decompression on deck 10.
Dr Crusher: Cause?
Computer: Structural Design Flaw.

If you made the Space Monsters zero-maintenance, and really good resource extractors, could you get them to build ringworlds, colonize, and "eat" the star too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ?

[geoschmo]

Oh, man that was my all time favorite TNG episode! Let me see if I can remember....

Crusher: Computer. Specify nature of design flaw.

Computer: Ship exceeds paramaters of known universe.


ROFL! I loved that one.

[Rollo]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gryphin:
... Victrory condions for the human running this race could be any of the belo:
1) To have fun
2) Be based on a minumum of kt destroyed
3) How many turns it survives
...<hr></blockquote>

Hehehe, if the monsters are controlled by a human the victory conditions for all NON-monster players should be "Last to be wiped out" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif .

Rollo

[Growltigga]

I kind of lost this thread when people started talking about sector cloaks and all that high tech gizmo.

Question - practically, what form/style would the monsters take? If you want my tuppence worth, I always thought it would be cool to use either the high tech Borg style of beastie or preferably (given my decisively low tech triats) a sort of 'swarm' style thing a la the swarm mother in the Wild Cards books (ie the mutants not the marines)

If that were moddable - that would be the sort of monster I would love to play

[Suicide Junkie]

RE cloaking:
Translation:
- The spacemonsters lair can't ever be seen or attacked.
- The only way to kill the infested planets is to blow up the star.

The high-tech beastie thing is probably not scalable... At the beginning, they will be too powerful, and at endgame they will be only a nuisance.
The swarm could probably be handled better, since as the monsters take over new territory, their swarms will smoothly scale up. This is also probably good against minefields, since the loss of a hundred would not hurt the overall swarm later on in the game.

I would go with the swarm preferably, since the AI can screw up tactically with a few ships and not ruin the whole attack.

For variety, of course, there will have to be plenty of Borg monsters and middle of the road evil.

[Growltigga]

SJ - glad you agree, a few individual rampaging starbeasts (a la Starfleet Command II if any of you play that) would be quintessential to this game. The swarm would be the "uber-beast". I would think the following would be prerequisites:

1 no diplomacy whatsoever
2 sole purpose to occupy and destroy planets
3 gains resources by 'converting' population into more beasts, possibly can do the same thing with organics
4 uses organic technology
5 moves slowly, spreads slowly - for this to work it needs to be a creeping death style of thing
6 basic cloaking abilities apply to the swarm
7 needs a swarm mother ie some kind of superbaseship able to create more little rampaging darlings
8 needs to be tip top at ground combat

Would this be hard to mod?

[Suicide Junkie]

1: Everything you can possibly do politically (even nothing?) increases their anger towards you. No prob.
2: AIs naturally expand. They won't focus on adding territory, since they will attack any ships they see, but you don't want them expanding too fast.
3: Not gonna happen. Unfortunately, the soylent green facilities were tried and failed. They're gonna be building Farms on their invisible planets just like everybody else.
4: Super-organic tech. Organic + P&N "Living ships" at the very least. Add organic engines and electronics, and you'll be set.
5: Make swarm spores (colony ships) have a max of zero engines, with a built-in 1 standard movement point. They cannot be disabled http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .
6: Add it to the hulls. They should be very vulnerable to psychic sensors, but average against Grav & temporal, and strong against EM.
7: I don't think AIs handle mobile constrution ships very well. I could be wrong though. They can always use their planet-based hives to produce ships.
8: Not a problem. Dogscoff and his Space vikings should be able to give some pointers.

[Growltigga]

SJ - sounds like you have the answer for pretty much everything. Pity about the consuming ability not being a doer - my thought was that rather than glass planets, the swarm scoffs the populace and converts it into organic points or whatever

I have not downloaded the P&N mod or indeed any mod yet until I get the hang of it more

[Suicide Junkie]

GT: Sentyou a PM. Check out "my profile"

[Growltigga]

SJ - got your PM and sent one back, I can see your a modding genius, answer my command and communication query if you can - Spaceballs as favourite film? pluuuueeeeeaaaaasssseeee http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[mac5732]

SJ, have a few questions, If you have 0 engines with movement of only 1, this would take their colony ships forever just to cross 1 system, I agree slow expansion, but shouldn't their colony ships be a little more speedy otherwise they become real sitting ducks and would take far to long to colonize thus negating their real threat. In regard to expansion, I understand the colonizing planets part, but once on a planet, since its a swarm type race, I would (my opinion only) increase their re-production on a planet by at least 25-30% more then the other races. Slow expansion, but once landed, rapid re-production, thus over population, causing even more colony ships to be sent out. Also what type of atmosphere? Probably should be able to use all types to be real threat. I like the idea of the mother planets only being eradicated by blowing the star. That way you can burn them off of planets, but until you find/locate a mother world, they will just keep coming. You could have more then 1 mother planet just to make it more interesting. (if possible)

just some ideas mac

[Suicide Junkie]

One MP colony ships are fine. There should be hundreds to thousands of bugships flying around, and you won't be able to catch them all. You won't stand a chance of stopping the colony ships if your own border systems are being pillaged by a hundred million Tons of Bugs (100 Dreadnaughts) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

If you want, set every planet to build a "Bug Hive" as the first facility. It would provide Spaceyard, Atmosphere ConVersion, and sector cloak (just in case).
The rest of the facilities would be solar resource generators "Bug Farms"

It would really help to have a facility sector cloak that worked, so we could ensure one and only one sector cloak per planet. The bugs will be wasting a lot of resources on building excess cloaking bases, and might eventually run into the base limit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif We'd have uncloaked planets and planets with 21 cloak bases. Unless the AI guys know some tricks...

[ 24 January 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

[geoschmo]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>but shouldn't their colony ships be a little more speedy otherwise they become real sitting ducks and would take far to long to colonize thus negating their real threat. <hr></blockquote>Not if the colony ships have cloaking. You can't kill what you can't see. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>We'd have uncloaked planets and planets with 21 cloak bases. Unless the AI guys know some tricks...<hr></blockquote>I am pretty sure this is doable, or the AI's now would be building tons of bases. It might take some trial and error to get it tweaked, and you might never get it to exactly one and only one per sector, but you could probably get close. But the facility would be better, cause that's less time the monster planet is exposed.

Geo

[ 24 January 2002: Message edited by: geoschmo ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

For a Borg-like Monster, Cloaking the colony ships would be OK.
For swarm monsters, the player should be much to busy fending off the warships to worry about the colony ships. Colony ships can be set to swarm as well.

[Baron Munchausen]

I don't think these 'crutch' measures will ever make an effective 'space monster'. You'll have to play by self-restricting rules to make it work. I think MM has to alter the hardcode with some new AI routines and some special powers to make space monsters feasible.

[geoschmo]

I would agree if your goal is to make a giant space-borne monster like what you see in many sci-fi shows, it would be tough without hard-code changes.

But I think a very acceptable and playable "swarm" monster race could be done with the suggestions in this thread.

Geoschmo

[Suicide Junkie]

Baron:
Are you saying that you would find a monster race, using invisible & invulnerable planets, and spawning loads of Bugships & fighters every turn, easy to defeat?
You can't cut them off at the source, and they will only expand ever larger until you start blowing up every infested starsystem.

[Growltigga]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by geoschmo:
But I think a very acceptable and playable "swarm" monster race could be done with the suggestions in this thread.
Geoschmo[/QB]<hr></blockquote>

Goody, can we call said beast Growltigga's revenge?

[Phoenix-D]

"I would agree if your goal is to make a giant space-borne monster like what you see in many sci-fi shows, it would be tough without hard-code changes."

You could do it; the tricky part is getting it to do anything! (or not die/be out-researched into oblivion)

Phoenix-D

[Rollo]

Hi everybody,
wanted to post here earlier, but couldn't get to the site http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif .
I am currently working on a monster mod together with Puke.
I'll comment/answer to some of the earlier Posts.

Growltigga:
1 no diplomacy whatsoever
* the diplomacy part is done. The monsters simply declare war on everybody after first contact.

2 sole purpose to occupy and destroy planets.
* was there ever any other purpose? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

3 gains resources by 'converting' population into more beasts, possibly can do the same thing with organics
* that cannot be done.

4 uses organic technology
* they will use any technology that our (and your) evil minds will come up with. Since we will make our own technologies and components anyway, we don't have to restrict ourselves to organics.

5 moves slowly, spreads slowly - for this to work it needs to be a creeping death style of thing
* don't have plans for expansion. they will just stick to their homeplanet(s)

6 basic cloaking abilities apply to the swarm
* some of them will have cloaks, some not

7 needs a swarm mother ie some kind of superbaseship able to create more little rampaging darlings
* we have considered that as well. Needs testing though, to check out how the AI handles that

8 needs to be tip top at ground combat
* no monster invasions at this time

Baron M.:
"I don't think these 'crutch' measures will ever make an effective 'space monster'. You'll have to play by self-restricting rules to make it work. I think MM has to alter the hardcode with some new AI routines and some special powers to make space monsters feasible."

I can see your point and I agree. The monsters will basically just behave like a normal AI. But with their special tech and some of their quirks (no colonization, huge single "ships", no resource problems, super fast build-rate, no plantes to attack) they will sure make a new and interesting challenge.

Geo: "I would agree if your goal is to make a giant space-borne monster like what you see in many sci-fi shows, it would be tough without hard-code changes."
Phoenix: "You could do it; the tricky part is getting it to do anything! (or not die/be out-researched into oblivion)"

The way I currently envision the monsters is not a swarm, but few huge beasts that operate mostly alone. The monsters will research and get stronger as the game progresses. For each level of "monster tech" there will be one or more monster(s)-of the-line that might have totally different weapons/abilities/tactics than the previous ones. If carefully tested/balanced the monsters should be a good challenge at any stage of the game. At the later stages the monsters could also "team up" in small fleets. Another good thing about the different tech levels is that you could have the monsters stay dormant for, say, the first 20 turns or so. This way you (or the other AI) don't get wiped out right away before you found your footing.

I was also wondering, if somebody else is working on making a monster mod. We could exchange ideas/concepts so we don't have to invent the wheel twice.

ROLL CALL: we need some cool monster pictures for the graphics. Anything goes from giant amoeba to space dragons. If somebody already has some pics or wants to do some, please let us know.
Question for Andres (if you read this): Can we use a few pics of the Cephalopeia?
I know there was a really nice picture of a dragon some time ago, but I cannot find it at the moment.

Okay, enough for now. Sorry about the lengthy post...

Rollo

[Egregius]

Rollo: yes I was busy making a spacemonster mod, as I posted earlier (I was the one who topped the thread out of oblivion after all).

I did some testing, ripping components from another mod and tweaking them, but I have the greatest difficulty getting the AI to design their own ships using the vastly superior monster components (like connective tissue that acts as life-support) and to get them to add to their own build cue correctly.

I am a total sputz in modding the designcreation file. I dont understand half the stuff there, like major weapon family etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Anyway for a picture set I advise using either species 8472 (some of their ships look like squiddly thingys with tentacles) or the Cephalopeian shipset which was basically meant as spacemonsters. Just ask permission I guess http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Edit: my idea was also one planet which spawns the beasties (preferrable would be they didnt have a homeplanet but that doesnt work) which builds one starbase with a sector cloaking component (to avoid they get whiped out easily), and the planet keeps spawning them in various sizes, amongst which those able to harvest organics from asteroids (I hope the AI has some way of figuring this out), and a few sizes which can spawn new ships.

Their special shipsizes have -100% maintenance for obvious reasons.

[ 25 January 2002: Message edited by: Egregius ]</p>

[Gryphin]

I've another concept for folks to ponder.
In a game with 3 or more human players, give one of the humans control of the Monster Race. Put certain limitaition on the race. Victrory condions for the human running this race could be any of the belo:
1) To have fun
2) Be based on a minumum of kt destroyed
3) How many turns it survives

I have no idea how to create this mod but based on the other Posts here, it apears to be possible.

Please don't ask how I come up with these ideas. Even my therapist doesn't know.

[Rollo]

Egregius: Sorry, I must have missed that you were working on those, too. My bad. I'd be glad to exchange thoughts and compare notes.
If you are having problems with the desigcreation file, I am sure that I can be of help. I have some modding experience with that (done two races for standard SE IV so far, as well as a couple for the Devnull Mod Gold). If you have any question, just post them or drop me an email (snickelsen@web.de). There is also a design creation "cheatsheet" made by Atraikius that is of great help to figure out that AI file. You can find that in the mod section somewhere. Btw, thanks Atraikius http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

edit:Found it. (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/Forum25/HTML/000019.html) Look for a post by Atraikius on June 7th 2001 that has a "Design Creation Cheat Sheet" attached.

As far as life support and so on, you can make the hull needing no life support, if you want. I don't know what the connective tissue is supposed to do, but you can add that as an extra component. For all the other components/abilities (sensors, ECM, cloak, whatever) needed for a monster, you can just add them to the hull (body) of the monster and not worry about the design minister choosing the wrong parts. Weapons can be added quite easily, just give your new monster weapons their own weapon numbers and use those for the primary and secondary weapons. You can also give some monster part bogus abilities like "star - unstable", "ancient ruins", or "ancient ruins unique" and use those abilities to add specific parts to a monster.

Thanks for tip about the pics. I was planning on using not a complete shipset, but different pics for the various monsters. The Cephalopeia will be good for some monsters, but I don't want them to be "squids only". I want Dragons, Amoeba, Jellyfish, sentient gas clouds, and whatnot as well. You know, the whole suite of classic space monsters.

About harvesting asteroids: sorry, but AFAIK the AI cannot do remote mining. But this is not a problem. The space monsters will not need resources much anyway. If give them a large enough maintenance reduction, the will actually not pay maintenance, but produce resources with their ships (negative maintenance = resource production). So the more monsters are out there, the more resources will be gained.

To all: If you have any ideas for a specific space monster that you would like to see (like a Dragon that spits a hundred fireballs per turn), just post here.

Rollo

[ 25 January 2002: Message edited by: Rollo ]</p>

[Andrés]

Do you mean that you'll make a "monster shipset" that includes all those kind of monsters, or that there'll be different races of monsters in different systems?
I didn't find the pictures I had yet. If I don't find them soon I'll be easier to just make new ones.
I hope I can get to work in the dragon shipset again and finish it soon.

[Rollo]

I want to make one shipset for the monsters that has the different monsters (squid, dragon, whatever) in them. The monsters will just be one race in game terms.

[Suicide Junkie]

Actually, setting the lifesupport requirement to zero will make a hull without lifesupport valid, but you will still lose 3/4ths of your movement because you have no lifesupport components.

Just make a "Heart", "Brain" and "Nerve Tissue" to function as Lifesupport, bridge and crew quarters.

[Rollo]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
Actually, setting the lifesupport requirement to zero will make a hull without lifesupport valid, but you will still lose 3/4ths of your movement because you have no lifesupport components.

Just make a "Heart", "Brain" and "Nerve Tissue" to function as Lifesupport, bridge and crew quarters.<hr></blockquote>

Yep, that is true. I forget to mention that all monsters treated that way should have a built-in master computer in the hull (which is a good idea against psychics anyway).

Rollo

[Andrés]

http://se4kdy.cyberwars.com/temp/monstercomps.zip

Here you have a couple of components (couldn't find the old ones and just modeled these) + a preview of the dragon shipset you can use (I'll give you a few more dragon sizes soon).


I had fightes that didn't require life support in the SW mod and they seemed to work fine. Maybe it's no the same with ships.

[Suicide Junkie]

Units can't lose lifesupport without being totally destroyed, so SE4 dosen't check them, I guess.

If you want ships that don't need lifesupport, try giving the ability to the bridge component.

PS: Make a some Minis for those images, and I'll add 'em to the image mod.

[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

[Andrés]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>There is also a design creation "cheatsheet" made by Atraikius that is of great help to figure out that AI file.<hr></blockquote>I wish someone would made something like that for other AI files. That would make an excellent modders manual.

I guess you would eventually find some visible planet, but would you make contact with them if their planets are invisible?
If you turn show planet names on, would you see the names of invisible planets?

About life support/bridge/crew quarters.
Different monsters can have those heart and brain ect, while others can have master computers, either built-in or as another "organ".
Psychics would be able to telepathically tame some monsters, the same way they do with enemy ships while other should be invulnerable.
Some monsters would even be tamable by boarding parties, but others should have strong boarding defenses.

Edit: I added the minis to the same ZIP in my Last post.

[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: Andrés Lescano ]</p>

[Egregius]

Altered from the Neomod, I added a couple of abilities and took away regeneration from most components the mod used because of the bug. Would the AI pick these over regular bridges somehow, since these have smaller cost and smaller size.

Name := Central Neural Complex
Description := The Main brain center of a space monster.
Pic Num := 267
Tonnage Space Taken := 10
Tonnage Structure := 10
Cost Minerals := 0
Cost Organics := 100
Cost Radioactives := 0
Vehicle Type := Ship
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Vehicle Control
Family := 2
Roman Numeral := 0
Custom Group := 3
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Space monster
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 3
Ability 1 Type := Ship Bridge
Ability 1 Descr := Contains a ship bridge.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Boarding Defense
Ability 2 Descr := Directs anti-bodies to counter invading entities
Ability 2 Val 1 := 250
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Self-Destruct
Ability 3 Descr := Dies when invasive entities prove to have superior numbers.
Ability 3 Val 1 := 0
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

Name := Internal Organs
Description := Organs which sustain the function of a space monsters brain.
Pic Num := 116
Tonnage Space Taken := 5
Tonnage Structure := 10
Cost Minerals := 0
Cost Organics := 100
Cost Radioactives := 0
Vehicle Type := Ship
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Vehicle Control
Family := 3
Roman Numeral := 0
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Space monster
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Ship Life Support
Ability 1 Descr := Contains life support.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Armor Regeneration
Ability 2 Descr := Regenerates 30 points of damage per combat turn.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 30
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

Name := Connective Tissue
Description := Tissues that hold a monsters inner organs together.
Pic Num := 218
Tonnage Space Taken := 5
Tonnage Structure := 10
Cost Minerals := 0
Cost Organics := 100
Cost Radioactives := 0
Vehicle Type := Ship
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Vehicle Control
Family := 4
Roman Numeral := 0
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Space monster
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Ship Crew Quarters
Ability 1 Descr := Contains Crew Quarters.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

[AJC]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Egregius:
Rollo: edit...

Their special shipsizes have -100% maintenance for obvious reasons.

[ 25 January 2002: Message edited by: Egregius ]<hr></blockquote>

-100% maintenance reduction has not worked for me on the overall maintenance cost of a single ship when I tried to mod reduced maintenance into hull sizes.

[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: AJC ]</p>

[Rollo]

Thanks for the pics Andrés. They look great http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

I am not sure about taming monsters. I think I will give all of them built-in MC and SDD.

The monster hulls that I use so far have not -100 maintenance reduction, but -500. So they will generate and not use resources.

Rollo

[Rollo]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Egregius:
Altered from the Neomod, I added a couple of abilities and took away regeneration from most components the mod used because of the bug. Would the AI pick these over regular bridges somehow, since these have smaller cost and smaller size...<hr></blockquote>

I don't think the design minister chooses by smaller size. One thing I have found though, is that the number of tech requirements influences the choice of components. Maybe if you add a second tech requirement to the components (ship construction 1, perhaps?) the minister will choose them.

Rollo

[Andrés]

http://se4kdy.cyberwars.com/temp/morepics.zip

[Suicide Junkie]

Just place the components from worst to best, and without anything else to base its decision on, the AI takes the Last component.

EDIT:
The Morepics.zip has been added to the image mod, but has not been uploaded.
(I need your credits first.)

The beam & torp images are #51 (both)
The components got slots 300 through 305, alphabetical order.

[ 27 January 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

[Andrés]

Just mention my name for the credits.

I guess you would eventually find some visible planet, but would you make contact with them if their planets are invisible?
If you turn show planet names on, would you see the names of invisible planets?

What would be the race portrait of monsters if you contact them?
They should have a speech file to ensure they don't talk at all. It wouldn't make sense if monsters answer "It's not our time for alliaces."

[Rollo]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Andrés Lescano:
Just mention my name for the credits.

I guess you would eventually find some visible planet, but would you make contact with them if their planets are invisible?
If you turn show planet names on, would you see the names of invisible planets?

What would be the race portrait of monsters if you contact them?
They should have a speech file to ensure they don't talk at all. It wouldn't make sense if monsters answer "It's not our time for alliaces."<hr></blockquote>

If they do not colonize and don't use troops there will be no visible planets. Contact has usually been established by monster scout ships. Not sure if the planet name shows or not, but I'll check. Wouldn't make any difference really, if a human knows where the planet is. Humans just don't have the sensors to detect (and attack) the planet. The homesystem of the monsters can be found easily enough in the borders screen anyway (too bad this cannot be turned off for homesystems, just for colonized systems).

I was thinking to use the race portrait (dragon)that was in the zip. Wasn't that the reason you included it?

The speech file isn't a problem. I was counting on Puke to come up with some nice speech lines. The only one I can currently think of is "Yum yum..." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

Rollo

[Andrés]

You would be able to attack a visible ship above the planet and that would make it show in combat.

Would a dragon be apropiate to speak for a space amoeba?
That's the portrait I was planning to use for the dragon shipset. I was including just as a preview.
If I ever finish it will be a little confusing to have an empire with the same portrait of monsters wouldn't it? If you find the pic is apropiate use anyway. I'll worry when I finish that shipset.
Any idea for a flag?

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>You would be able to attack a visible ship above the planet and that would make it show in combat.<hr></blockquote>Except that it is an entire-sector cloak. Anything in orbit will also be invisible and non-attackable.

[Rollo]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Andrés Lescano:
... Would a dragon be apropiate to speak for a space amoeba?
That's the portrait I was planning to use for the dragon shipset. I was including just as a preview.
If I ever finish it will be a little confusing to have an empire with the same portrait of monsters wouldn't it? If you find the pic is apropiate use anyway. I'll worry when I finish that shipset.
Any idea for a flag?<hr></blockquote>

Oh, I see. Well, if that is the picture for the dragon shipset, it should stay that way. I'll find something else (or maybe somebody could do something ..hint...hint http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). I haven't really given much thought what picture and flag would be good. Top prioriety for me right now is making it work.

Rollo

[dogscoff]

OK, i've just read the Last 3 pages...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
The way I currently envision the monsters is not a swarm, but few huge beasts that operate mostly alone.
<hr></blockquote>

This is what I had in mind for the monster in my previous thread. The only thing that worries me is intel - how do you prevent another player stealing a monster through crew insurrection - you could give the monster tech some outrageous intel facilities for counter intel, but could you then prevent them from using offensive intel?

Actually, you probably could, couldn't you, if you denied them the normal tech trees. You could also make special "monster intel":

"Sire, Giant Space Lobsters have stolen 40000 Organics from our storage facilities."

[Rollo]

Hey Dogscoff,
WP monster: yeah, that would be cool if it worked, but I have my doubts. Unfortunately there is no minister for "wandering about aimlessly" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif . As I said earlier, the monsters will behave like a "normal" AI. That's one of the major restrictions with doing monsters with this workaround.

Intel: I have already taken care of this with a similar method as you described (high intel production and only defensive intel). The planet cannot ever be taken by humans, so the monster facilities can have truly insane power.

Rollo

[Growltigga]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by dogscoff:
"Sire, Giant Space Lobsters have stolen 40000 Organics from our storage facilities."<hr></blockquote>

Cripes, I have this dream too, do you also have the one with the B5 Centauri and the giant broccoli spear tangoing to Westlife?

Seriously, the WP monster is an absolutely super idea. IMHO, monsters should fit into one of three types,

1 the bloodthirsty galactic 'as much mayhem before breakfast as possible' sterotype - eg the swarm thing you experts are discussing as to whether practical or not;

2 the "dangerous if you get near them but otherwise just hanging out in the far reaches of the galaxy type" eg most of the monsters they meet in Startrek; and

3 the mysterious 'never come across them but golly you know they are there' types just like your WP beast, unstoppable, not directly dangerous, elusive but capable of some game turning things, eg new warp point right into your home system etc

now, modding the AI? I leave to you experts

[Rollo]

Well, I'll give the WP monster a try tonight and see what the AI does with it.

Rollo

[geoschmo]

I know the ultimate goal is to create a non-player monster that will behave accordingly in a game and be a challange. But there is no reason that these more difficult ideas have to be discarded outright. They could be used in a multiplayer game. All you would need is a person willing to control the monsters. Make them interesting enough and that shouldn't be a problem.

Geo

[Growltigga]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by geoschmo:
I know the ultimate goal is to create a non-player monster that will behave accordingly in a game and be a challange. But there is no reason that these more difficult ideas have to be discarded outright. They could be used in a multiplayer game. All you would need is a person willing to control the monsters. Make them interesting enough and that shouldn't be a problem.

Geo<hr></blockquote>

Geo, wise words - if all we are talking about for the moment (other than mod tweaks) to make these left field concepts I advocate reality is (i) a willingness to be a beasty on mutli-player and (ii) role playing then count me in - I will always be more than willing

[mac5732]

I like the ideas for the 3 types of monsters mentioned, this way everyone has their type of monster incorporated into the game. This could possibly be set as a random factor, that way you would never know which of the 3 you were going to see in your games. You could have 1,2 or all 3.
I would also make it an option that way those who didn't want monsters would be able to turn them off.

In some of the other sci-fi games out there, monsters were incorporated into the games and worked fairly well, ie; Moo, Federation, etc.

just some ideas mac

[Growltigga]

right on Mac, the question will be as Geo says whether is it possible to modd these traits into the game, or alternatively, and an idea I really like only if from a role playing angle, would be for a human to run the beasts, imagine, each swarm type could differ depending on who ran it -we would all have our own styles etc

just some ideas GT

[Suicide Junkie]

I wonder if it would be worthwhile to consider a multi-level game:
- at one level, we have the standard player races doing their thing.
- in the background, unseen by most players until the advent of advanced sensors, two or three non-expanding monster races battle it out.
- and at the bottom, we have a universe-eater with SM technology.

The universe-eater should probably eat all the systems at the edge of the map, then work slowly inwards, cloaking all planets, asteroid belts and stars with colonies and cloaking bases.

The winner of the game would be the player(s) who control the Last starsystem in the core of the galaxy.
The middle-monster races would attack this core system as their primary goal, preventing any one player from fortifying it until the Last part of the game - after the universe-eaters have swept past the monster-homeworlds.

[geoschmo]

I like the idea of the "universe eaters" going about their buisness completely unaware of the other races, and undetectable by them. That would be easy enough with a high level cloak. Is there a way through a mod to make a ship that can pass through a standard minefield without either detonating it or sweeping it? If not I guess it would just have to go ahead and sweep them.

This could be combined with the WP monsters before. It would be a controllable "event" generator in effect.

Geoschmo

[dogscoff]

Rollo - I might have a dragon pic for you, if I can just find it. I drew a cool lizard years ago and it's now stashed away on my Amiga (which is currently mothballed), but maybe some of my friends would have a copy of it somewhere. I'll mail them and find out.

I have an idea for a cool space monster pic as well. I just hope it looks as good on screen as it does in my head. I'll try to pixel it this week, at least in outline.

Also, I'm not up to date with this thread, so this might have been suggested already, but how's this for a space monster idea:

A warp point monster - you give it warp open / close abilities and let it roam around the galaxy. It wouldn't even have to be aggressive, it could just wander about altering the map at random, making the game a little more interesting for human players.

Or, you could make it invisible (impenetrable cloak) and pretend the warp points opening all over the place are random events=-)

Of course you'd have to be careful the wp tech didn't fall into human hands but I have a feeling you've already discussed that kind of thing on this thread.

Not sure how you'd persuade the monster to actually use the wp components, but imagine how cool it would be if you could get it working...

[Andrés]

http://se4kdy.cyberwars.com/temp/possiblemonsters.zip
Just downloaded and rendered a lot of animals and other pics from 3dcafe. Some of them could make good mosters.
Also included a few pics I made from scratch.
Pick any you like and make suggestions.

[Rollo]

Wow, thanks a lot Andres http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Lots of good new ideas here. I tested the WP monster(s) Last night. Didn't do a whole lot, but at least one WP was opened by it. Most of the time the WP-ships hang around the home planet though. Since it doesn't cost the monsters any money, might as well leave that in. Humans can use that to create confusion around the quadrant.

Also checked if the cloaked planet is revealed if planet names are turned on. As suspected it is, so there is a planet name floating in seemingly empty space http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif . I put a ship in orbit of the cloaked planet to see whether that would count as a blockade. It doesn't http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif , meaning that you cannot blockade what you don't see. Tonight I will check, if I can blow up what I cannot see. I have a destroy-planet-ship in the queue and see what happens when try to use that above the cloaked planet.

Rollo

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: Rollo ]</p>

[dogscoff]

Andres - I liked the manta and spinal pics for space monsters. The pt.bmp made me think of Rodan (which sounded like it had jet engines) from the old 1950s Manga rubber Godzilla movies.

&lt;nostalgia&gt;
Man I loved those films...
&lt;/nostalgia&gt;

Anyway... Rollo & Geo - Tell us more about your "vision" of the space monsters. Are they rare but hugely powerful or common as muck and comparable on strength to an empire ship?

Do they stay the same strength throughout the game or does their tech "evolve" as the game progresses?

Presumably you'll have a whole bunch of monster pics in a shipset (ie Escort = gas cloud, frigate= space spider, destroyer= Disembodied Head of Zsa Zsa Gabor etc) and then the monster AI will just build and release them. I suppose you'd have to enforce variety (ie prevent the AI from only using the largest hull available) by having monster type 1 as a "pop transport", type 2 an "attack ship" and then set the AI files to build them in equal quantities.

This reminds me of a cool idea I had Last night actually: To make the monsters more "organic" and less like ships, have a whole stack of custom hulls for them, with irregular sizes - so rather than each monster being exactly 500kt or exactly 350kt, give the hulls values like 534kt, 908 kt, 177kt. Make dozens of them, but distribute the images randomly throughout, so that the AI doesn't go through "phases" of producing only energy clouds, and then only crystalline entities as it advances through the tech. (Assuming it does advance through the tech. You may have used a "static" tech tree, which might work a lot better)

Something else that occurred to me: isn't there something hard coded into the game that even if it has the tech, the AI will only build ships up to light cruiser size for the first 40 turns, or something like that. I think there imight be 2 or 3 "thresholds". This could be useful to you, to ensure variety in hull sizes.

What about names? You can't have "giant carnivorous blimp" if the AI assigns that name to a space-wasp. You'd have to use either meaningless names, or give the monsters individual names like "Melcchor the Devourer" and "Spogroth the Wanderer". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Finally (for now anyway) will you be including a whole load of squidgy, crunchy, what-does-a-4-kilometre-long-slug-eating-a-spaceship-sound-like-anyway sound effects for the monster weapons? I hope so=-) The line-in on my Soundcard is fried, otherwise I'd offer to sample some sounds from "Destroy all Monsters" or "The Terror of MechaGodzilla" (which I happen to have on tape). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[dogscoff]

or even Godzilla wavs (http://www.angelfire.com/ga/KingGhidorah/sound.html)

[Rollo]

Thanks, guys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .
Will check that out,when I get home.

[Rollo]

Okay, I checked if a planet destroyer would be able to destroy a cloaked planet (was kind of worried about that), but that doesn't work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . So truly the only means (that I can think of right now) to kill the monsters is to destroy the whole system.

Rollo

[Rollo]

I'll try to make some short answers (before my boss comes in http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). few strong monsters, evolving through the game lots of different designs will be used to get variety the AI will have to go through phases somewhat, but of course there can early-stage and late-stage squids (mixed in with dragons, bugs, mantas...) maximum hull sizes can be set in the design names: I was thinking of a name file with classic monster names from films and literature: Smaug, Godzilla, Tiamat,... (help required) I was thinking of sounds, too. The "Godzilla roar" would be cool to have http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif .


Back to work.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
Rollo

[Suicide Junkie]

Re: Universe-eaters.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Is there a way through a mod to make a ship that can pass through a standard minefield without either detonating it or sweeping it? If not I guess it would just have to go ahead and sweep them. <hr></blockquote>I would say: If they can eat stars and planets, I'm sure that the mines will taste like salt in their diet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

RE: names.
Searches work great. Godzilla movie monsters (http://www.lavasurfer.com/godzilla/topher-zilla-names.html) for example.

[Fyron]

What if they cloaked they star?

[Puke]

they are not that smart, nor do they have the potential to be. if they could be made to create stellar constructions, then we could probably make them construct a base at 6,6 and cloak the star. as it is, they cant even convert astroid belts.

the AI will not create bases anywhere except in orbit of their own colonies.

[oleg]

Andreas, can we borrow "vorlon.bmp" from your possible monsters for vorlon shipset ?

[Andrés]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by oleg:
Andreas, can we borrow "vorlon.bmp" from your possible monsters for vorlon shipset ?<hr></blockquote>

Yes I found that ship in 3dcafe and thought it may be a good adition to the vorlon shipset. Forgot to mention that.
BTW the mesh didn't include a readme I'll have to check there again if you need the author for credit.

[Rollo]

Hi everybody,
the Monster Mod is nearing its completion for the first stage. There is still a lot that can be done, but I feel comfortable enough to publish a first Version for testing very soon. I still need some pictures of monsters and also a race portrait. I am totally lacking in the arts department, so if anybody wants to contribute something, I'd be thankful.

Rollo

[Captain Kwok]

I haven't read over the thread all that much, but what is the general idea behind space monsters? Is it like a neutral empire who protects their "habitat" by force with some powerful natural tech?

[Andrés]

Please remind of the pics you need. Some new kind of mosters or variations of some of the ones I had posted?

I still wish to make the dragon shipset someday (souds so far http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ), so it wouldn't be apropiate to use the portrait I had shown you. Any idea of the kind of moster would be apropiate as race portrait?

Are you upgrading the mod to Gold Version?
I think it mixes different sizes and designs better and that will be very helpful for this mod. It does not longer allways pick the largest hull.
Any idea for "organic infestations"?

And you can give them stellar manipulation prevention abilities to their facilities, so their hidden homeworld cannot be destroyed.

[Rollo]

Cap Kwok - The Monsters are not neutrals. They leave their homesystem, but do not build new colonies. Diplomacy is rather simple as they just declare war on everyone. And yes, they do have a rather powerful racial tech with special hulls, weapons, components, etc.

Andrés - Currently I am using two pics from the Cephalopeia, one from the Dragon, one that Dogscoff sent me (giant worm), and another one that I made myself from a photo that I found on the web (giant jellyfish). I still need the race portrait, flag, drone, and maybe a new jellyfish. There is no space station either, but that isn't important as they are always cloaked anyways.
I'll look through the pics that you posted again and use one of them for the drone. For the portrait I'll probably use just a big question mark for now. There will be a step 2 in the monster project so better and additional pics can be added later. I remember that the manta pic was pretty nice and I'll use that for a new monster in the next iteration.
The Mod has been made for Gold and is incorporated into DevnullModGold. I have not made any changes to the system types, so the organic infestation is just pretty, but does nothing. Giving the monsters the ability to prevent stellar manipulation would make them totally undefeatable. I am not sure that I like this.

Depending on the weather, my household chores, and any Last minute problems that might show up, I am planning to post the Mod within in the next 48 hrs.

Rollo

edit: typo

[ 27 April 2002: Message edited by: Rollo ]</p>

[pathfinder]

Andres Lescano: Your re-done SE3 races showed up in as random races in my newest game. Ickyak & Memorak are currently at war with me and the Sechulkra soon will me...nicely done sir!

[Rollo]

The Space Monsters are now flying http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif . Check out the latest Version of Devnull Mod Gold.

DevnullModGold_v1.60 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1020021179.zip)

Enjoy and let me know how you like them (even more important: what you don't like). There is plenty of room for new stuff and improvements.

Happy gaming http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ,
Rollo

[Rollo]

Hi,
looks like I screwed up a little with my calculations and made monster tech way too cheap http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif . I did most tests with only one planet, 2000 points and under minister control (which means no bonus).
Anyway, in my current actual game I used 3 planets, 3000 points and low AI bonus and the monsters had maxed out their tech by turn 20 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif OOPS.

I suggest raising the cost of monster tech to a large amount, say 150000.

You can do this yourselves.
1. Find the techarea.txt file in .../DevnullModGold/Data.

2. Change the Last entry to:

Name := Monster Tech
Group := Applied Science
Description := Only for the bad and ugly guys.
Maximum Level := 12
Level Cost := 150000
Start Level := 1
Raise Level := 2
Racial Area := 6
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := False
Number of Tech Req := 0


I will test this tonight and make it part of a patch, if more bugs / suggestions come in.

Rollo

[Gryphin]

2 questions:
Do the Space Monsters require the Devnull mod to function as intended?
Does the Devnull mod alter / replace any of the stock files?

[Rollo]

Yes, the Monsters are part of Devnull Mod. So, you need that to play with them.

No, Devnull Mod does not change/alter any of the stock files. However, it does add one file (monsterroar.wav) to the Sound folder in the stock installation. I was reluctant to do that, but the other options would have been copying all the other sound files into the mod and thus increasing its size by 27 megabytes or leaving this gimmick out. As long as you do not have a file with the same name, it dosn't hurt anything.

Rollo

[Gryphin]

Rollo,
Thanks, I don't mind the extra file.