Mongoose - Starting (at last!)

[Loren]

WonderLlama said:
Oh, I'm not quitting. Don't worry about that. And I've enjoyed this game tremendously, and think I will still enjoy it.

I'm just saying that was the tipping point. Unless something very unexpected happens, that turn decided the game. (Well, other than the fight between the three of you once we're out, which will be very interesting as well.) I did crush one of your armies 2 turns ago. However, you had at least 3 larger armies that I know of, whereas you just crushed the entirity of my meaningful forces.



Yeah, that's something missing: There's no way for dead players to watch what's going on.

[Loren]

Adios, although I am still interested in how it turns out.

[fabio80mi]

The combind forces of Abysia and r'yleh conquered all that was left of the once great Arcos nation.

The 'forces of good' are going to regret their unprovoked attack on my lands

:-P

[Loren]

fabio80mi said:
The combind forces of Abysia and r'yleh conquered all that was left of the once great Arcos nation.

The 'forces of good' are going to regret their unprovoked attack on my lands

:-P



Somehow I have a hard time seeing attacking those who sacrifice virgins to summon demons to be unprovoked.

[BigandScary]

how do you know that it was unprovoked sacrifice. Mabye those virgins called the mages names.

[Sensori]

And your "allies" using the dead for which they condemned the Ermorian empire for makes you better, how? Want proof? Here's the proof, the troop report on Caelum's capital:

http://sensori.soldats.net/CaelumCapital.png

See the parts in this report which state "Longdead" and "Tartarian Monstrum"?

So, your "alliance of good" turns out being just yet another regular alliance, except yours is filled with hypocrisy! You would attack others for things you would allow your allies do.

Shameful, indeed.

[Sensori]

And now not only does Caelum have its undead forces deep within its borders, it has some on its Marignonian border, completely removing any veil of non-usage of the dead they may have ever had! Obviously the claims of "goodness" by the alliance of the western nations were highly exaggerated.

Indeed, not only do they use the very same methods they were so quick to condemn and even attack others for, they claim to be acting in the name of "good". Evil in the name of good is the worst kind of evil.

[WonderLlama]

Please. Those undead merely defected from your evil tyranny. Even the dead are sick of your sick, twisted, alien brain control.

[Loren]

1) I took no part in the war against Ermor.

2) Using the dead is a very different thing than using demons. It also doesn't require sacrificing virgins.

[BigandScary]

very mean spirited and offensive virgins. They had it coming.

[Sensori]

WonderLlama said:
Please. Those undead merely defected from your evil tyranny. Even the dead are sick of your sick, twisted, alien brain control.



And now they even resort to lies. Going down the path of lies is not so hard after you have already begun twisting your own "ideals", is it? Nothing defected from us, and you know it. You reanimated and created them yourself. Do not try to turn this into "THEY CAME FROM YOU" when it is indeed you who did it from the beginning.

We have never made any claims of goodness, while you have - and you would even lie to keep up appearances. Sad.


WonderLlama said:
2) Using the dead is a very different thing than using demons. It also doesn't require sacrificing virgins.



If using the dead is so different from using demons, then why did your allies in the so called "alliance of good" use them as an excuse to destroy Ermor, and now they are seen using them themselves?

Does this mean that you see that it is only the so called "alliance of good" which is allowed to use the dead in warfare? If you had defeated Abysia, would you have picked up blood sacrifice as well?

[fabio80mi]

Sensori's posts always make me laugh =)))

[WonderLlama]

Sure sure. There are no defections. There is no army of giant angels at your doorstep. You aren't mind controlling everyone. And you spew no propaganda.

There is an important difference between these undead and Ermor's. Ermor's were evil. Many of these undead are defections from your tartarian gate who rejected your evil ways. Some of them are former minions of Ermor who have gone through extensive rehabilitation. So you see, Ermor had evil undead. These are pure, kindhearted, good undead. They're really big sweeties actually. Which all right-thinking, freedom-loving people can see. Not so hard to understand. Although they are angry with their former brainwashers.

[Sensori]

Again you spew your lies. Never did we say that we do not control the minds of some. That is something you came up with on your own. Maybe your mind would need to be controlled by a mind which is much more organized than yours, one which is not quite as deep in insanity as yours? And yes, you are quite right, there IS no army of giant angels at our doorstep. Instead, there is a giant army of devils and assorted creatures on yours. And I would not call the Caelians "angelic". No, you are just men with wings.

Nothing changes the fact that you reanimate the dead while claiming them to be "defectants". Sure, of course. Too bad the Longdead are MINDLESS. DO you know what that means? Oh right, maybe not, since you are without a mind yourself. You claim your dead to be "good", while claiming other people's dead to be "evil". How in the name of all that is holy does that work? They are the same longdead we are using. The same gods from the very same Tartarus that we are using. There's no difference. Well, except the fact that you are... "Rehabilitating" your troops. If that does not mean brainwashing, then nothing does.

And obviously we are much nicer than you, since a number of Arcoscephalean troops defected to OUR side when they found out about your usage of evil in the name of good!

[WonderLlama]

Really? I haven't seen any Arco troops in your armies. I expect if we ever do, they will be accompanied by large head scars and drool.

Good vs. Evil isn't that complicated. Just take a look. Big feathery wings - good. Devils - evil. Horrible tentacle aliens - evil. This isn't rocket science.

And by the way, please continue insulting our poor, misunderstood undead friends. I'm sure calling them brainless will do a wonderful job of winning them over.

[Sensori]

It seems that sanity is truly something which has been lost in the lands of Caelum. They do not see the fact that their evil is just as evil as that of anyone else. Your wings do not make you "good". It is the actions of the creature which make it so. And yours... Your actions have been just as bad as ours.

Your "alliance of good" is a joke.

Your undead "friends" are just as much evil as those that were used by Ermor. Or by us. Or by any other nation, such as the Ulmish horde which was eradicated after its war against us. Your "big feathery wings" mean nothing. You are not celestial beings. You are not angelic. You are simply men with bird-like wings, nothing more, nothing less. We have seen this. We know. And of "angels", you are closer to the Fallen ones whom are imprisoned in Inferno than the uncorrupted ones.

All you have shown us with your insane babbling is that you believe in your own "goodness" while being just as evil as anyone else. Your mind has been corrupted by your own twisted views on "good" and "evil". The fact that you defined all undead evil when you destroyed Ermor does not change with the fact that you have later, somehow, changed your mind and see SOME as "good"... AS LONG AS they follow YOUR commands. That only shows that your mind has been corrupted.

We grow tired of this retarded debate. You have fallen just as low as Ermor was, with the only difference that at least the Ermorians knew where they were. You are just continuing to run down this path to self-destruction.

[WonderLlama]

Keep it up. As you can see, the people are listening. And your people are turning on you and beginning to worship me.

[WonderLlama]

Do you not realise that I, WonderLlama, am the Guardian of the Dead? It is my sacred responsibility to protect these poor dead souls from abuse by those such as you and the vanquished god of Ermor. It is only natural and right that they would fight for this cause, for I am their father, just as I am the father of all good gods.

But I would not expect you to understand the difference between good and evil. For you are the Hunger Without Thought. You are incapable of seeing that your actions lead to your own destruction, as you mindlessly devour all that stands in your way. Especially brains. They represent the knowledge of good and evil, and you hate them, since they represent something you are incapable of. You have spawned the evil gods, but in mindlessness, without purpose. I have forseen that one of your children will be your undoing.

[Sensori]

No, what you have foreseen your own destruction, and for that you have turned from your position as the "Guardian" of the Dead into just what everyone else is - an abuser of the dead. A true Guardian would not use the dead for his own dark ends, while claiming to have "good" intentions. No, a true Guardian would let the dead rest. That is quite exactly the opposite you have done. You are not protecting those "poor souls". You are bringing them to this world to fight in wars which do not concern them.

Just like everyone else. You are no better than us, no better than the Abysians. Indeed, you are worse. We never claimed to be good nor evil. Nor did the Abysians. You are the warmongerer. You brought war to the East, and now it is coming to the West. Remember that it was you who started all this, and it is you who is paying the consequences of his very own rash actions. Not us. We are simply reacting. Responding to the gravest form of hostility.

Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none.

Note that our God is also called the God of Invincible Power... How could anything be the undoing of a being which is invincible? And our God surely does not hate brains. That is, again, your own strange form of prejudice. Brains, and the usage of such, represent the destruction of retarded creatures such as yourself, whom start wars for the sake of ideals which they are prepared to throw out of the window at the first time they start seeming to slow down one's progress. All you have shown us is that once your lands have been conquered, your people's genepool must be cleansed of this kind of... Insanity. And, as you might know, becoming hungry rarely requires a lot of thought! That is a survival mechanism of us biological organisms. Or have you not noticed this yet?

But what should one expect of such a young pretender? Of such a young people? You seem to have not yet realized that there is more to the world than just "good" and "evil". There is no such thing as "true evil" nor "true good". There are only shades of grey. Only different views of the world. Brains represent the knowledge of simple issues like this one. Lack of higher brain functions, however, represents your dualist view.

Claiming that the usage of undead by one nation is "evil" and by yourself is "good" is hypocritical, especially if you claim to be the "guardian" of the dead.

As for your claims of our people worshipping you, you must be losing your mind. The fact that people in only a few provinces of our seas worship a god which is not ours is no cause for alarm. In fact it is to be expected in provinces which are surrounded by many hostile dominions, and if you'd pay any attention, the levels of your faith in said provinces has been diminishing for the most part. Surely you should be aware of this? Now that Arcoscephale is gone, our religion will spread from other locations to that place as well. That is how things work in this world.

[WonderLlama]

I have also forseen my own destruction. We went over that. I have more recently forseen yours. I am not surprised you don't see how the God of Invincible Power could destroy himself. Let me explain it very simply for you. Your power is invincible. Not you. Your own power to create other evil gods is what will destroy you. And as it is invicible, you can not stop it. It is already done.

Yes, my faith in your lands did once diminish. Back when I was overcome with grief for what you did to poor Slither. Not lately. Lately it has done nothing but grow. Ever since I exposed your lies, and they were so evident that the people could not help but believe.

[Sensori]

As of late, your faith has been diminishing in our seas, not growing. The fluctuation of faith in three seas which were, for quite a long time, under your faith just shows that the people who were once brainwashed to believe in your insane form of "goodness" are now wondering whether they should, indeed, join the greater faith of R'lyeh.

As for our lands... The only land province that has your faith, or has ever had your faith, is the island of Typhia, and obviously that is simply a remnant of an age long past. Indeed, when we arrived in the western sea, much of it was under your faith - very strongly we might add. Now the province with the strongest faith in you has less faithful than the province which is under our faith in the same sea. What does this tell about those who "worship" you, hmmmm?

Of course you may "foresee" whatever you wish, our mentally challenged "friend". Your delusions were amusing for a while, but now you are simply testing our patience. The Starspawns of R'lyeh have greater things to attend to than your insane banter. We have seen the future, and there is nothing which would make us die there.

[fabio80mi]

Some poor Marignon soldier tried to oppose my devil horde, let it be known that they fought (and died) to the last man.

Abysia mourn the passing of such brave soldiers that would have been a great addition to our nation if only Marignon surrendered realizing they can't win this war!

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/4734/poormarignonyh9.th.jpg (http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=poormarignonyh9.jpg)

[BigandScary]

No longer will the Lords of Leaf and...um...Bark stand back as events pass them by. The Panni Council has reached a verdict and would now announce it. Pangea will join their brothers, Abysia and R'leyh, in war on the Alliance of Good. We, the Alliance of Questionable Allignment, shall crush those that stand before us. All those that border our woodland nation are warned, in three months time, We March!

[Loren]

As for our lands... The only land province that has your faith, or has ever had your faith, is the island of Typhia, and obviously that is simply a remnant of an age long past. Indeed, when we arrived in the western sea, much of it was under your faith - very strongly we might add. Now the province with the strongest faith in you has less faithful than the province which is under our faith in the same sea. What does this tell about those who "worship" you, hmmmm?



Actually, no. That ocean was mostly under my faith when you entered it.

[Sensori]

Not the northern ones, which are also the ones that are under Caelum's faith (very weakly, I might add, it keeps fluctuating constantly).

[BigandScary]

I was wondering if we can postpone the hosting this weekend. I am out of town, with little chance of internet connection from Thursday afternoon until Sunday. I will be getting subs for my other games, but they are all early games, this one is in such a critical stage that I don't want to suddenly bring a new variable into the game. What do you guys think.

[WonderLlama]

Sounds fine to me.

[fabio80mi]

No problem man !
Still i hope to have 2-3 more turns done till thursday evening ^^
As you said we're in such a critical stage that i'm eager to see how it turns out...

Btw Wonderllama did i mentioned i really hate your flying troops drop behind my lines? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[WonderLlama]

No, actually you didn't. Well, I hated the first one too. I hope this one goes a little better.

[Sensori]

Thanks for the Tartarian Spirit, WonderLlama. Hadn't gotten one yet!

[WonderLlama]

Ouch! You charmed him? How many tries did it take? That guy had at least 24 MR I think.

[fabio80mi]

Cool fight wonderllama , i have no idea if the routing of your units was a scripted thing or not but really screwed me big time O_o

[WonderLlama]

Ok, this is just not right. I can't see any of these fights for about another 3 hours. Stop telling me really interesting things happened! The curiosity is driving me crazy!

Errr, maybe I should just stop checking the thread until then. Oh who am I kidding; I can't do that.

[Sensori]

No, not charmed, I enslaved him. Nice equip, though. You chose the wrong target for a one guy leeeeroyyy attack. ;p Not that your other guy did any better.

I don't think I've ever seen two SC-types dying without causing ANY casualties. How many gems did you use to equip those bastages?-D

[WonderLlama]

Sensori: By charm, I mean the general effect. Not the specific spell. The Monstrum with the Horror Helmet was dumb on my part. I should have known your PD was mindless. The other one was bad luck. MR 25 got charmed in 7 tries. Not saying I should have won, but ouch. The helm I just had lying around. The spirit, I don't know how much that cost. A lot. Who is Leroy?

fabio80mi: No, not scripted. That was in something like round 10, so can't script it. You should be very glad they did rout. Although I have no idea why. My big Iceclad squad still had over 3/4 its guys left. At the point I routed, almost all your guys were unconscious. I would have easily killed the rest if those cowards hadn't run.

I think I'm cursed. And I don't mean my character in the game. Mongoose hates me.

[fabio80mi]

Still wonder very good tactics, though it didn't turned out as intended for you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

You're DEFINETLY a challenge to play against

btw your routing guys did they all die since they had nowhere to retreat to ?

[WonderLlama]

Yeah, they died. Even flying guys need somewhere adjacent to retreat to. I got a whole page of "(Name) died while retreating into enemy territory" messages.

[llamabeast]

Have re-postponed the game for hosting on Sunday, since I got an e-mail from BigandScary to that effect. Hope that was right.

[Sensori]

Well, it looks like his 2h is in so the game might need a new postponement if/when Caelum sends in his turn.

[WonderLlama]

I was actually waiting since I thought BigandScary wouldn't have a turn in anyway. Would it be useful for me to get a turn in now?

[fabio80mi]

It would wonder :-)
We asked Llamabeast to resend brigand turn and he did, if you play turn 64 we can start planning the moves and wait for brigandscary in turn 65

[llamabeast]

Yeah WonderLlama, you could send your turn in, then I'll postpone again, but at least you'll all be able to take your next turns.

[Sensori]

Now that WonderLlama sent his turn in, you'll have to postpone it again to Sunday, Llamabeast. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

[llamabeast]

Postponed to late on Sunday. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[fabio80mi]

Thank u llamabeast for your great hosting!

[BigandScary]

wow, that was unpleasant. I mean, 5 or 10 I can see coming, but 30? Jeez.

[Sensori]

30 what?

[BigandScary]

seraphs, although it seems like there was something more like 40.

[llamabeast]

Impressive!

[Sensori]

It's Caelian/High Seraphs, not the real badass ones that Marignon can get. It's not quite as impressive as it would be if they were the actual Seraphs.

[BigandScary]

oh yeah, not the crazy good summons, but still enough electicity to light up New York City for a few days.

[Hardfeldt]

It's clear that I have lost this war. Any turn now, my few remaining provinces will be lost and I can no longer offer any resistance. Since my vacation is coming up in the end of this week I will set my self to a.i.

I would like to thank everybody for a fun and rewarding game. I have learned alot, and it has become painfully clear that I have alot more to learn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Perhaps we will see each other in future games to come.
Take care, and gl all with the game!

[fabio80mi]

You've been a worthy opponent Hardeldt http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Look forward to play with u in other games!

[BigandScary]

yeah, it was fun. See ya around.

[WonderLlama]

So that I can learn, can somebody explain the proper way to use scout decoys? I've had more scout decoys than real commanders every time R'yleh has cast nukes at me for the past 30 turns. The only times they have worked has been when I move (not sneak) them along with the army. How am I supposed to use them? Do I have to sneak them into the province the army is coming from, or do they have to already be in the province with the army before the turn? Or does sneaking stop them working at all, and they have to just move along with the army?

[Sensori]

If you want to use scout decoys, yep, they have to move with the army. Although I think it's not worth your time getting them and using them - it's useless unless they can be in some way useful in actual fights. Hell, for that effect, I just have a crapload of Star Children moving with my army which seem to be preferred targets for your attacks - with full research, they aren't really worth anything to me anymore, other than as a bit more expensive than regular Illithid Mind Blasters.

So, your main problem is that you don't have any cheap commanders which actually would still be worth something in a fight as well, but are expendable enough, too. If you start putting items on them they become better in battles, sure, but then it'll actually sting when you lose them... Which makes it less nice, and not really a good choice when you could put the items on your mages which need the protection a whole lot more.

[WonderLlama]

I think it would have been worth it. I've had plenty of time when I couldn't afford to recruit mages at all my forts to grab scouts. And they're nearly free (20). Your nukes have totally dominated me. But that's neither here nor there. I had them, I just didn't use them correctly.

So just to make sure I understand, they have to move, not sneak. So sneaking units are immune to (most) ritual attacks?

[Sensori]

Yeah. I think Fires from Afar and Flames from the Sky type of things will still also hit sneaking units. But that's different, since, especially Flames, is a rather indiscriminant killer in the first place.

But you know, watching that one fight in the north where you took back one of your provinces was kinda funny. I've never seen one guy getting enslaved, then charmed, then enslaved again and charmed once more before. I wonder why everyone was so happy about hitting that Tartarian Monstrum in particular. ;p

[WonderLlama]

Yeah, that was a hillarious fight. I was upset when he (my highest HP guy) got enslaved, and then when I noticed my guys started casting charm on him, I was really excited and rooting for him. And then he went over to fight my elephants, and I couldn't tell if he was attacking the charmed one or not, so I didn't know if he was mine or yours. That was fun.

There was another one lately when Pangea attacked my raiders with an army and the gorgon. I won the fight pretty handily except for the gorgon. Which passed out due to grip of winter. My whole army proceded to kill itself on her, plus lots and lots of my summons. All but one of my casters were out of range. So I think the frozen gorgon sat there while phantasmal wolves killed themselves on her until the 50 turn autoroute. That one was fun too. Plus I learned a valuable lesson about not always sticking my casters in back.

[BigandScary]

yeah, you really outmaneuvered me with that storm. The Gorgon was set to attack rear, and as I watched the fight all I could think of was "Why is she walking?"...(the sound of me sapping myself) Oh yeah, no flying in storms.

Also, I think sneaking units can be hit by province hitting spells. Sensori's mind hunts killed three of my scouts in Ulmish territory.

[Sensori]

Oh, they did? I guess I was wrong, then, and WonderLlama just got really, really unlucky.

But... That kind of lack of luck seems kind of impossible. I never hit scouts when they were sneaking in Caelum's territory. Maybe you can only hit scouts of other people rather than the one who owns the province?

[WonderLlama]

Well, some of the time I was sneaking my scouts with my army. And then that didn't work, so I guessed that maybe stealth movement came before rituals, so I started moving them one step behind my army. So it's not quite as unlucky as it seems.

But there must be something special about stealth and rituals. I've seen people on the boards say that one of the advantages of stealth is that you can raid and then stealth before your opponent can react with rituals. I wasn't sure if that meant stealth movement came before rituals, or protected against rituals, or what.

Could it be that mind hunt ignores stealth, but summoning style assainations (like earth attack) don't?

[Loren]

WonderLlama said:
Well, some of the time I was sneaking my scouts with my army. And then that didn't work, so I guessed that maybe stealth movement came before rituals, so I started moving them one step behind my army. So it's not quite as unlucky as it seems.

But there must be something special about stealth and rituals. I've seen people on the boards say that one of the advantages of stealth is that you can raid and then stealth before your opponent can react with rituals. I wasn't sure if that meant stealth movement came before rituals, or protected against rituals, or what.

Could it be that mind hunt ignores stealth, but summoning style assainations (like earth attack) don't?



I was just trying a game against the AI and I was being plagued by assassins. I tried popping a few mind hunt's at them and never connected. Either they are moving out before the mind hunt fires or they can't be hit.

[WonderLlama]

Hmmm, we had another battle where that Monstrum got enslaved. This time, I put a bunch of guys (with brains) in front of him to screen. But he still got targetted by the enslaves right off the bat. Is that because he's larger? Or is it just not possible to screen against enslave?

[llamabeast]

Because he's larger. Casters for single target spells will go for what they deem the most valuable target. I think it is simply based on hit points, but I'm not sure.

[WonderLlama]

I know they'll go for a valuable target. I thought they still had to be able to see the target, though. So I tried to obscure line of sight. So does line of sight not matter (for this at least) or does the size of the target unit affect los?

[llamabeast]

I don't think line of sight matters for spell casting. I could be wrong.

[WonderLlama]

Ok, thanks. That explains it.

[WonderLlama]

I know it's kind of close to the deadline, but can I get a bit of an extension this turn? Just 8 hours would do. My orders for this turn have taken a very long time. I have an hour at lunch to finish up, but I don't think that will be long enough.

[llamabeast]

Postponed by 10 hours. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[WonderLlama]

Thank you so much. You're the best!

[fabio80mi]

I'm curious what you will be come out with Wonderllama :-)

[Sensori]

Illithid, both young and old, have been having a nice time outside Caelum's fortress. That location has been deemed a safe location for the Illithid families to have good, whole hearted fun for the entire family at by the administration. The numbers of Illithid and auxiliaries only grow as time passes as more and more people hear of the fun being had on the ground level beneath the mountain fortress.

And there is much more fun to be had! Just this month, a new skiing resort just opened! Qubeley the Starspawn is the head figure of this entire endeavor of turning Caelum into an amusement park, and his fun sayings such as "R'lyeh is Rising" and "Fhtagn" are sweeping the nation! There is also an observatory for the young ones to watch the locals hiding inside their fortress. It's all jolly good fun!

In other news, Gouf the Starspawn, whom was thought to have been lost forever in time and space, came back the other month and in R'lyehian territory for once. And there was much rejoicing! He's just a bit crazy now, but no one's perfect!

[fabio80mi]

It seems there has been some miscomunication and some of my demonic forces killed a little pangaeans army in Eribon(76) , we mourn the passing of so braves soldiers ;/

[BigandScary]

Aldrick, my general who survived the fiasco with R'lyeh many months ago has been killed by my other ally. He will be mourned.

[WonderLlama]

I've been trying to send my turn in for the last 30 minutes, but hotmail isn't working. (It says the server is too busy.) There is currently a little over 2 hours until the turn. I expect I'll get it through in time, but if I don't, is it possible to fix it?

[fabio80mi]

Guys let us know how the battle in caelum capital goes !

There are so many troops there it will be an awesome thing to see, actually if some of you can film it trhough fraps or something similar would be most appreciated!

[Sensori]

Yeah, when it happens, it'll be a big one, and since he's not coming out, it's gonna be VERY disadvantageous to me when I eventually storm the fortress. I'm not seeing myself winning it, and if I do, it'll be because of crazy lack of luck on Caelum's side. Having checked out his army just now I can see that.

And based on what I saw... I'm getting the feeling that Arco and Marignon really did send all their gems most of the time to him. I can't explain how he has so much magical infrastructure left STILL even with like 2 provinces (which are besieged) otherwise. 25 gems from globals + 5 from your cap isn't that much, especially when you'd need to alchemize the Earth and the Air gems for Astral.

And now WonderLlama, your remains of the "alliance of good" really has gone to new lows - you're using blood slaves yourself. ;p

How do you explain THAT?

[WonderLlama]

My allies did send me the gems they had left just before they went out, but not before. Most of my income is my own, and I'm perfectly comfortable in my castle until my dominion runs out. Arco sent me his blood slaves when he went out. I'm not really sure where he got them. I guessed maybe he took them from an abyssian commander in battle, though I'm not sure if that's possible.

As far as coming out of the castle goes, I was planning on it originally, but then I discovered my fountain can't even patrol/ break siege. Somehow I though I had patrolled with one before. So that was a nasty surprise. Can't see myself breaking out without it.

[Sensori]

Went pretty much I expected it to go (lost), but in a way it went better than I had expected as well. Most of my unique item carriers survived the fight (and most of the SCs did too) while everyone else went six feet under or got Master Enslaved/Undead Masteried. Very little I could do against those - only thanks to Sword of Injustice I didn't lose the entire skelly army.

[Sensori]

WonderLlama said:Arco sent me his blood slaves when he went out. I'm not really sure where he got them. I guessed maybe he took them from an abyssian commander in battle, though I'm not sure if that's possible.



Nah, it's not possible. Could've been an event, though. I doubt he got them through blood hunt considering you were the "good guys". ;p


As far as coming out of the castle goes, I was planning on it originally, but then I discovered my fountain can't even patrol/ break siege. Somehow I though I had patrolled with one before. So that was a nasty surprise. Can't see myself breaking out without it.



Yeah, I knew you would probably not come out there, which is why I tried to force the issue, fully aware that I was going to probably lose. The extent of the loss, however, was a bit of a bummer - only like 10 mages (luckily they were the guys that mattered) survived. On a positive note, I have a LOT of cash to spend now!

All in all, I think if you ever showed up outside your home, your guys would die in an insane barrage of spells. So that place's probably the safest for you until your dominion runs out. ;p

But if that's all you... How the *beep* have you gotten hundreds of astral gems and a bunch of others while pretty much under siege? That makes no sense.

[WonderLlama]

I'll explain where the gems are coming from after the game.

I'll also save this turn file aside somewhere. After the game is done, I'll post it so everyone can see the actual battle.

[BigandScary]

do you have a clam economy? Where would you get the resources?

[Loren]

I did send him some blood slaves. They were from a random event.

[Sensori]

BigandScary, from the fight I gathered that he does not seem to have a *large enough* clam economy to explain it, unless this has been going on for a very long time (somewhat likely - how could've he had 400+ astral gems *during* the siege?). In fact, his clam income seems to be pretty much the same as mine. That's the thing I noted.

And my clam income, combined with my astral income, would be enough to cast one Wish per 3-4 turns. Sure, if I alchemized everything, I'd have more at my disposal - but I don't. I guess I could've just turned to Wishing, but I didn't feel the need. It won't take a lot of work to change that, however.

And WonderLlama, I knew how the fight would go when I went for it, but I went for it anyway. All in all, after watching it, I found it to be even more anticlimatic than I originally thought it would be. All I could hope for was that the Master Enslave would, for some reason, not go off - which it did. Same with the Undead Mastery. Damn AI working at the wrong time. I also could've attacked with a smaller part of the army, making the Master Enslave and Undead Mastery not go off with some luck. But that would've been far less fun (and far less upkeep releasing).

I saw the Undead Mastery guy and the Master Enslave guy before I attacked (that's why I attacked with that lone skelly leader in the first place, I wanted to know what you were packing) - and I knew how powerful the effects would be, especially with the Master Enslave guy having 5 in penetration. There was no doubt in my mind that I'd fail when I sent the turn in. Yep, I knew I would, unless you had done some seriously stupid choices in magic. As a result, it's nowhere near the end of me - I have much stronger armies brewing in the back. I just wanted to try if that bunch of suckers could pull it off, which it did not. ;p

EDIT: After thinking about it a bit, I can see how you could pull it off better. You thought you could hold back - which meant casting things (a LOT of things, like that Sea of Ice which was (and still is) pointless) you didn't really need in the grand scheme of things. You, apparently, didn't take into account that Arcoscephale and Marignon would only end up serving as speed bumps. There was nothing they could've done against concentrated, planned efforts to destroy them one by one. Their low research (especially Marignon's) were big problems for them I'd say.

And where I threw gems away at three to four different sides (Arco, you, Marignon, Ulm) in an attempt to weaken them and/or keep them at bay to help an ally, you only worried about Abysia while strengthening your own powerbase in the back. But in the process you left me virtually unscathed and let me bring about huge (free) chaff armies with which I flooded over Arco, seeped into Marignon and slowly (well, not that slowly - you didn't even try to stop me) made my way into your lands as Abysia chose to put his power into use elsewhere. This leads us to a somewhat funny situation where I can throw a numerically large army at you, make it bleed to death at your doorstep and call it acceptable losses.

[BigandScary]

this is a mystery. I will be very interested to learn his secret.

[Sensori]

Well, it's not that much of a mystery once you think about it - my and his gem incomes might have been nearly identical for a long long time, but he had two nations working as a buffer zone whereas I had to constantly react to his, Marignon's, Ulm's and Arco's attacks and throw all kinds of things on them (Mind Hunts, Earth Attacks, the works).

That obviously stunted my growth (and I mentioned it to Abysia quite a few times), while I knew that Caelum would probably be growing stronger. But now that he only has one safe province to work in without getting bombarded to hell... Well, it was all for naught. And now this game has turned into a "Wait till Caelum dies a Dominion death" game. :-p

[WonderLlama]

Ouch! I was fine with my Forge of the Ancients dispelling any other enchantment out there. Including my other ones. Just not the earth well. I figured I had a 4/5 chance. And I certainly need to gamble. Ouch!

[WonderLlama]

Sorry about the delay. Llamaserver wasn't accepting my turn last night for some reason. The first time I got a "Pretender not found" (or something like that) error email. The second time, I got no response at all. And didn't know it hadn't worked until this morning. But I sent it in again, and it worked.

[fabio80mi]

Np wonderllama http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif btw your defense so far has been heroic, after losing all your province except the capital in like 5 turns you're proving to be very hard to beat definetly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Sensori]

Yeah, although it's a bit pointless since the game'll end with Caelum's destruction. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Still, a valiant effort to make the game take just a few turns more.

[WonderLlama]

Well, I had a good run. After that last turn, I'm ready to go AI. You hit me very hard with those fireballs. I was going to put up several redundant domes next turn, but I figured this turn all your spells would be going after my invading army.

It's your call though. I'm fine with trying to hold off a few sieges if that's fun for you all.

Either way, good game.

Oh, and as promised, my secret. I was up to about 50 clams. All those scout decoys that never worked as decoys had them. Maybe you figured that out. Those fire spells killed most of them though. I made them using Ice Crafters who had been empowered with nature. So they were half price. And I must have used about 20 wishes, mostly on gems. So I was in no danger of not being able to finance that. I was just about to wish for armageddon 5 turns in a row, which I figured would end blood hunting and bring you all down to my income level. But you got me too soon. Probably nothing shocking on what I did, but I didn't want to tell you about just how many scouts I had with pearls lest you go after them.

[Sensori]

Well, that was kind of why I threw all kinds of crap on your home earlier in an attempt to rid you of the Air dome to let Abysia throw Flames from the Sky at you without it interfering. ;p To stop you from Wishing by destroying your clam base (which was all you had). And obviously you had more than was showing (suspicion confirmed by your guy having Wished again - a level 9 astral mage doesn't turn into a level 10 astral mage with all other magic levels rising a level too without wishing). I myself am using the very same technique and have my clams on hiding Star Children all over my nation. Yeah, I figured it out all on my own a few days ago! ;p

To make a long story short, I knew I used gems where you didn't (remote attacks, lots of them), and I should've realized before posting that you had used them for that (clams). Altho I bet it has required a lot of alchemizing to get that going.

As for you quitting... It'd work for me quite well. I think this game has gone past its expiration date.

[Loren]

Sensori said:
As for you quitting... It'd work for me quite well. I think this game has gone past its expiration date.



You realize you're changing the terms of the game? It wasn't team victories! That was part of our reasoning in attacking Abyssia--we saw that it was not in your interest to help Abyssia and didn't expect to be facing your combined armies.

[WonderLlama]

I guess I should have had multiple air domes up sooner. I didn't anticipate anything quite so damaging. I certainly had the air gems for it.

I have set myself to AI. I also thought there could be only one winner, although it wouldn't surprise me if R'yleh could just claim it.

[Sensori]

Loren said:

You realize you're changing the terms of the game? It wasn't team victories! That was part of our reasoning in attacking Abyssia--we saw that it was not in your interest to help Abyssia and didn't expect to be facing your combined armies.



Nope, we didn't change the terms of the game. Nothing in said terms said that allied victories were prohibited. And you were wrong if you expected that I would let Abysia die to your alliance. How stupid did you think I am? Had Abysia died, I would've been isolated and pretty much alone against FOUR hostile nations and would've lost any chance to win (or even help someone else to win). Yes, that's your alliance and Ulm.

Sure, we had a much looser alliance in place before the war with you, but your massive war forced it to turn into a much deeper one. I had to be sure that if I sacrificed my growth and helped Abysia with remote spells as much as I could, it wouldn't end up biting me in the *** in the form of Abysia doublecrossing me. And the same of course goes for Abysia - he had to make sure that I wouldn't start using my stuff against him.

At the moment, however, the game's not even fun to play anymore and I'd be willing to just call it a draw between me, Abysia and Pangaea anyways if they felt inclined to even if the "to the end" alliance was not in place. Since, all in all, the effects of the alliance is just that - it's a draw between 3 nations once Caelum is either destroyed or leaves the scene.

EDIT:

Just started thinking... Would you have been happier if I had lied about it and claimed that us three had come to an agreement that we'll call the game a draw after Caelum's dead? Since effectively the alliance has the very same end result, and I would have asked them about a possibility for draw even without the alliance. ;p

[Sensori]

WonderLlama said:
I guess I should have had multiple air domes up sooner. I didn't anticipate anything quite so damaging. I certainly had the air gems for it.

I have set myself to AI. I also thought there could be only one winner, although it wouldn't surprise me if R'yleh could just claim it.



After all things have been said and done, you played your game pretty damn well. I never (well, before I realized your god was an Oracle and you took the Chalice from me) expected that you went the Wish way. That was the way I intended to go originally too, but never had the chance thanks to all the wars that depleted my gems turn after turn for a long long time. I however did expect to see a lot of nasties from you, which in someways I did, although due to your Wishing for things like magical power instead of using the gems for troops, I don't think I saw quite as much as I had feared, much to my relief. A really strong immobile mage isn't as a big of a threat as a huge army of moving killers. You can just besiege him and keep him locked up.

There's one thing that I wondered about as we finally managed to get past Arco and Marignon and head into your lands. I don't quite understand why you let me take over your lands so easily. All I used was a bunch remote summons which I expected to be destroyed very quickly (they were worthless chaff after all). I was surprised that you didn't even try beating them back at the time. Considering that I knew that you were stronger than either of us (Abysia and me) alone (took our combined efforts to beat you back)... It was a really big surprise. Of course NOW it'd be a lot harder because I've been able to start hoarding gems and whatnot, but at the time...

[llamabeast]

Okay, it sounds like this game is over, so I'll end it. I hope you all enjoyed it.

[Sensori]

Thanks Llamabeast for awesome hosting! And yeah, the game was fun (or more like nerve wrecking, but fun nonetheless) for quite a while. Only in the last, what, about 10 turns, prolly less, it's been very obvious that Caelum was stuck in a downward spiral and the interest (on my part) towards the game started to wind down.

I also remembered why I never play a lot of PBEM games at once in any game, and why I always took some time out from them when they ended. I get crazy stress from those turns which can pretty much make or break the game for you and your side. Too many things could go wrong, and if they do, it could be the end of you... It stresses me out completely.

WonderLlama could've caused the game take a LOT more time if he had wanted to since his capital was close to impenetrable due to his awesomely powerful Pretender, so thanks to him for not doing that. Only way to get him out would've been dominion death... And that would've taken a long long time.

[fabio80mi]

I would like to take the time for some messages =)

First of all to Llamabeast : THANK YOU FOR YOUR HOSTING!
The service was wonderful and you were very present when problems arised ! a really plus http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Thank to all other players that contribute to make this game so exciting , in particular :

Sensori which was my allie for the most part of the game and from whom i've learned a lot
To the 'forces of good', Marignon+Arco+Caelum that really made the game interesting and helped me improve my skills a great deal to survive your onslaught http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif
To Wonderllama a particular note for being a worthy adversary ^_^
Eldanesh who was a friend in the beginning of the game and only due to war with my other allie ended up out of the game

For the other players i didn't have much contact with u.. hope to play other games though and meet u there!

[WonderLlama]

Sensori said:
There's one thing that I wondered about as we finally managed to get past Arco and Marignon and head into your lands. I don't quite understand why you let me take over your lands so easily. All I used was a bunch remote summons which I expected to be destroyed very quickly (they were worthless chaff after all). I was surprised that you didn't even try beating them back at the time. Considering that I knew that you were stronger than either of us (Abysia and me) alone (took our combined efforts to beat you back)... It was a really big surprise. Of course NOW it'd be a lot harder because I've been able to start hoarding gems and whatnot, but at the time...


I'm sure I should have done more to retake them, but I didn't know what. I didn't actually have that many forces yet. I tried once, telporting in mages and hawks, but you teleported in more troops of your own, and that was a disaster. I could have sent a few tartarians, but I had learned not to send those against you without a non-comander one to soak up enslaves. I also had a mobile army tied up against Pangea. I attacked Pangea hoping to persuade him that he couldn't win by joining the winning alliance and kicking me when I was down. Would have done that differently had I realised allied victories were allowed.

I would like to thank you all as well. My allies, for being friendly, and very talkative, so we had a well-coordinated alliance. Fabio80mi, I din't have any clue how to use blood magic, so I learned a lot from you. Sensori, I learned so many things from you. I never thought about using remote summoning spells and teleports at the same time before for one thing. BigAndScary, that Medusa battle was fun at a time when the game was getting pretty frustrating for me.

But mostly, thanks because the game was fun.

[BigandScary]

I just want to clear up a few things. When I invaded you WonderLlama, it was because of and alliance I formed with Abysia and R'lyeh at about turn 40, mabye earlier. In this game, other than mabye Arco and Marignon(I didn't have much contact with them at full strength so I don't know) I was the weakest nation in this. it was my job to invade Caelum's and Marignon's northern borders when I did, mainly to draw their troops north, away from the real fighting. And I have to say WonderLlama, your army was impressive...41 caelian seraphs. Good stuff.

Thanks for a great game, especially to my ally fabio80mi and my greatest ally Sensori.

And thank you llamabeast.

[WonderLlama]

BigandScary said:
I just want to clear up a few things. When I invaded you WonderLlama, it was because of and alliance I formed with Abysia and R'lyeh at about turn 40, mabye earlier. In this game, other than mabye Arco and Marignon(I didn't have much contact with them at full strength so I don't know) I was the weakest nation in this. it was my job to invade Caelum's and Marignon's northern borders when I did, mainly to draw their troops north, away from the real fighting. And I have to say WonderLlama, your army was impressive...41 caelian seraphs. Good stuff.

Thanks for a great game, especially to my ally fabio80mi and my greatest ally Sensori.

And thank you llamabeast.


Oh yes, I understand. I'm not upset about it. I'm just saying that was my strategy. I was hoping I could send you back to being neutral, in your own self-interest. Wasn't bitter. But since your self-interest was for the alliance to win, not for yourself to end up relatively strong, that didn't work for me. Well, that and you held up way better than I expected.

[Sensori]

WonderLlama said:
But since your self-interest was for the alliance to win, not for yourself to end up relatively strong, that didn't work for me. Well, that and you held up way better than I expected.



Actually that's not 100% true. I only contacted him about the "ends when we are done with Caelum" part of the alliance very close to the end, mostly because the game was turning quite stale (at least for me ;p) and I didn't wanna go through another war again. I just wanted to end it, and since we had made that deal with Abysia long ago when he was in dire straits...

I like to think the way he acted was more related to how you killed Ermor (his ally) and then I helped him survive the war with Ulm. That made us a lot more inclined to help each other than you, methinks.

EDIT:

As for allied victories, they are always "allowed", just that some people really dislike them while others (like me) really don't care. I don't really care about playing this game very "competitively" like some others - I don't find that fun at all. Big wars between undefined multiple nations and uncertainty of victory/defeat is where I get my kicks from (and stress). I'm a fan of alliances because it makes the endgame far less tedious by removing that awkward phase where you have to fight your former allies, and it gives a certain clarity.

[BigandScary]

I was stting at home, wondering which side I would choose...whichever one I did would be the one who finished me. I much prefer the alliance victory.

[fabio80mi]

Thanks to llamabeast i'm starting a new game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
You're welcome to jump in (suricate)