OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks. [Archive]

CaptSpoogy

July 13th, 2001, 05:42 PM

I know this is totally off topic - but I needed to vent some frustration out at the decision of the IOC for Beijing to host the 2008 Summer Games.

BOO!

Why does it seem unfair that a country that has such a long history of abusing human rights and denying freedom to it's people be rewarded with something as special as the Olympic games? Isn't the spirit of the games the exact opposite of what China is today?

I am from Toronto. The runner-up for the 2008 games. Bitter, perhaps - but not a sore loser. Toronto is the most multi-cultural city in the world. 52% of 5 million people in this city are foreign born and co-exist peacefully in the same neighbourhoods. A cultural mosaic. A safe and clean city with impressive plans to develop the waterfront into an olympic haven. One of the most efficient mass transit systems in the world. It should have been the only choice.

If anyone thinks the Olympics will help the people of China - they're wrong. When the games come and the world's media is focused and Beijing, what do you think will happen to the protestors marching for their rights? They'll be swept under the rug. Can anyone say "Tiananmen Square, Part II".

Oh well. There is nothing that can be done now. Perhaps I'll focus this spurt of Olympic enthusiasm towards getting Space Empires IV as a demo sport for 2004 games in Athens. (See, not completely off topic).

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disabled

July 13th, 2001, 06:00 PM

I am in agreement.

China is a poor choice. I suppose the worst thing that could be done to china right now was if Nato & Commonwealth nations all refused to submit members to the olympics and an official statement demanding china fully disclose all thier human rights violations and demand that china restore the rights of the people.

Of course, I favor forcing china into bankruptcy as well...

My apologies to anyone in china who reads this. I really don't like communism as it often goes from being communism to dictatorships really fast.

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HADRIAN AVENTINE
pacea@solar-outpost.com
http://www.hyperionbase.com

justjake73

July 13th, 2001, 06:45 PM

I was really hoping it would be Toronto. I'm from Rochester (across Lake Ontario) and not only would I likely have gone if they were there, but it would have had benefited the economy of probably every city within 100 miles. I'm honestly not surprised with the decision, since the IOC rarely has looked at the practical side but rather on who puts on the best show for them. Democracy has little influence with the IOC since they are an elitist non-democratic organization themselves!

Quikngruvn

July 13th, 2001, 08:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by justjake73:
I'm from Rochester (across Lake Ontario) and not only would I likely have gone if they were there, but it would have had benefited the economy of probably every city within 100 miles.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, it does: I lived in Greenville, SC, in 1996, 150 miles away from Atlanta. You bet we got a significant tourism windfall. And going to the Olympics is extremely way cool, even if it was for one day-- the day AFTER the Centennial Park bombing....

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Hadrian Aventine:
I really don't like communism as it often goes from being communism to dictatorships really fast.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In theory, communism is a great system: "from each according to his abilities, for each according to his needs." Unfortunately, the theory breaks down very quickly when you introduce human nature....

Quikngruvn

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"That which does not kill you will make you stronger." -- Nietzsche

[This message has been edited by Quikngruvn (edited 13 July 2001).]

geoschmo

July 13th, 2001, 09:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Quikngruvn:
In theory, communism is a great system: "from each according to his abilities, for each according to his needs." Unfortunately, the theory breaks down very quickly when you introduce human nature....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure it's great, if you are the one with the needs. But if you happen to be the one with the abilities, you get screwed.

Geo

rdouglass

July 13th, 2001, 09:22 PM

The layman's explination of capitalism / socialism / communism:

Capitalism: You have a cow and a bull (not a steer of course - something fertile!!). You breed the two, use / sell the milk and calves and pay a tax.

Socialism: You have a cow and a bull. The goernment takes all milk and calves.

Communism: You NEVER HAD a cow and a bull!!!

Puke

July 13th, 2001, 11:15 PM

as much as we tout capitalism, the US was basically a socialist state through much of the Last century. as dingy as he way, old ronny ray-gun pretty much dismantled the wellfare-state, and 30s era government subsidies to things like state construction projects and agriculture have been tapering off since.. oh, the fifties?

from what I understand (which aint much) Canada and the UK are mostly socialist, especially with regards to medicine.

now communism.. well, it works well enough on COMMUNES for hippies and crystal huggers and such, where they only have to deal with 50 to 100 people or so. but if someone can come up with any usefull contribution that that batch ever made to anything, i will be impressed. as soon as you apply it to governments, what a mess.

which reminds me, is anyone on this board from Hong Kong? how are they doing now? I recall talking to a guy in HK on battlenet the night before it was being handed back over to China. He was not terribly happy about the whole thing.

geoschmo

July 14th, 2001, 01:29 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Puke:
now communism.. well, it works well enough on COMMUNES for hippies and crystal huggers and such, where they only have to deal with 50 to 100 people or so.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Communes only work because of the small scale, and the transitory nature of the population. By the time one group gets tired of doing all the work for the others and leaves, another group of pie-in-the-sky optimists comes along and picks up the slack.

No system that rewards laziness and punishes initiative can survice on a universal scale, without a totalitarian hierarchy to keep the proletariat in line.

Geo

Instar

July 14th, 2001, 02:17 AM

Heck, back in the bad old days, the USSR and ChiComms werent friends even though they were supposedly the same system. China adopted communism to itself I guess. Maoist Communism. Mao was quite the character too... I'd tell stories but this is a family place

Puke

July 14th, 2001, 03:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Instar:
I'd tell stories but this is a family place<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

a strategy game forum? if this isnt the biggest bunch of war-mongers and leftover cold-warriors on the web, im not exactly sure what is. where else can you start a topic thats basically entitled "F- the Olympics, the commie dogs!" and not only is it NOT flamed by sensitivity-trained internet yuppies and hipsters, but it is overwhelmingly endorsed by everyone who has commented so far. I even got away with poking fun at pacifists, hippies, and new-agers, and no one has rebuked me yet!

granted, most stories about thrid world dictators can get fairly graphic, but I for one would not complain if you posted some stories.

Quikngruvn

July 14th, 2001, 07:05 AM

To heck with communism, give me my western-style capitalism any day of the week (and the idealist in me is socialist anyway!).

Supposedly the Beijing Games will force China to be more open about human rights, etc. I'll believe it when I see it.

Quingruvn

Phoenix-D

July 14th, 2001, 09:18 AM

The IOC has done this sort of thing before. 1936 Olympics were in- Berlin.

Phoenix-D

CaptSpoogy

July 14th, 2001, 04:00 PM

I wasn't really commenting about communism - more or less the IOC's poor decision in choosing Beijing as host. It sucks. I guess Toronto will have to wait until 2012 or 2016 to run again. (PS, We ran for 1996 and lost to Atlanta by a slim margin too).

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Puke

July 14th, 2001, 09:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
The IOC has done this sort of thing before. 1936 Olympics were in- Berlin.

Phoenix-D<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, and they WOULD have held the games a few years ago in Salt Lake City, mainly becaues the mormons got them good 'escorts' during the little get-togethers where they show off what a swell place they have. I didnt think the press made as big of a deal about that one as they should have.

i guess the IOC does suck.

edit: disclaimer, this is not an anti mormon post. I have nothing against any perticular religion. this post is intended soley to slander the IOC and the ruling body of Utah, which happens to be Mormon.

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"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

[This message has been edited by Puke (edited 14 July 2001).]

Noble713

July 14th, 2001, 11:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by rdouglass:
The layman's explination of capitalism / socialism / communism:

Capitalism: You have a cow and a bull (not a steer of course - something fertile!!). You breed the two, use / sell the milk and calves and pay a tax.

Socialism: You have a cow and a bull. The goernment takes all milk and calves.

Communism: You NEVER HAD a cow and a bull!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My favorite government type is the fascist corporate state (I'm serious BTW). It's great if done properly, and it's like a realist's Version of communism.

The government gives you a cow. You make milk and calves. The government takes your milk and calves, sells the milk back to you, and gives your calves to others (to make more cows, of course). The government uses its milk money to maintain its Legions of Doom, which are busy burning other nations to the ground.

Quikngruvn

July 15th, 2001, 04:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:
I guess Toronto will have to wait until 2012 or 2016 to run again. (PS, We ran for 1996 and lost to Atlanta by a slim margin too).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If nothing else, Spoogy, remember Athens-- they made (and narrowly lost) quite a few bids before landing 2004.

Quikngruvn

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"That which does not kill you will make you stronger." -- Nietzsche

July 15th, 2001, 09:21 AM

Tell me something, the West, especially the US just NEEDS a political enemy right? First you have got the ex-USSR and now China. I personally is from Hong Kong, and I get to see a lot of things first hand. I spent a year studying in the US and it really surprised me that China got such a bad stereotype, definitely not helped by your local Press. Bad things always got colourfully exaggerated many times over and put on the front page, good things rarely if ever got mentioned. Beware that what you see on the news might not be the whole picture.

Freedom and human rights? While I agree that China could make use of a better government system, it seems rather strange that people not even living in the country is pushing for a change harder than the Chinese themselves. In any case it is slowly changing anyway. Has it ever occured to you that the current batch of key decision makers is totally different from the one in 1989? Why do you think this is so? Don't expect everything to change over-night though, because it can't.

I have no idea why you guys living half-way around the world always seem to care about the "human rights" or "freedom" in China, I hope it is not an excuse to bannish the Chinese people (put it frankly, that is called racism). It is best to leave them to decide their own future. Trying to alienate China or pushing it into doing things the Western way is really counter-productive, it is going to do nothing but bring anger from the Chinese people. Take the latest 2008 Olympic decision for example, human rights is really not an excuse for not letting Beijing to host the Game. What's more important is, do the local people want the Game? I can tell you the answer is an affirmative 'yes'.

Puke

July 15th, 2001, 02:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by CW:
I have no idea why you guys living half-way around the world always seem to care about the "human rights" or "freedom" in China<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, I can only speak for myself, and it may sound pretty ****ty, but I'm a nationalist. I like to think that my country and form of government is better than everyone elses. Moreover, Im an imperialist in the same way that the british were imperialists when they burned washington, and the french were imperialists when they were raping Africa.

I like to think that my country is entitled to some kind of emminent domain over the rest of the world. And I would like to think that every other person in the world feels the same way about their own country. Thus, I can be sure that everyone else distrusts and dislikes me and my culture, and I can feel safe in a world of mutual hatred and political strife.

I feel like my way of life is being jepordized whenever the world 'gets smaller' and things happen like the berlin wall coming down, or russia falling apart, or china and tiawan improving their relationships. thats why I play WAR games. I like to fantasize about human suffering and imperialist conquest from the safty of my own home.

Lucanos

July 15th, 2001, 06:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:

Why does it seem unfair that a country that has such a long history of abusing human rights and denying freedom to it's people be rewarded with something as special as the Olympic games
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So why do the US get to have the olympics now and then? (I know you are Canadian, and I'm not verbally assaulting you) The US are the real threat to human rights and the so called democracy.

In the sixties (or was it the seventies?) a radiostation in the US refused to play Phil Collins because he had black musicians in his band.

Today the countyside in southern states looks like a poor country in southamerica or something.

Then some Americans (US Americans) say that Iran or Iraq are controlled by religious fanatics. Take a look at your own country. Take a look at Ricki Lake. Take a look at your money bills.

"In god we trust"

Yeah, right! Who is the real fanatic, here?

US is much younger than china and should show some respect for its older "brother".

Chinese ppl think in another way than Americans - and if their vision of human rights are different, then let it be so.

US executes ppl too, you know. In the US alot of ppl have nowhere to sleep, nothing to eat.

In the US you can't even have a proper election. That is not democracy.

What's the big deal with the olympics anyway?

-Luc

[This message has been edited by Lucanos (edited 15 July 2001).]

Lucanos

July 15th, 2001, 06:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Hadrian Aventine:
I really don't like communism as it often goes from being communism to dictatorships really fast.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The difference between the chinese and you, in this sense, is that they know they live in a dictatorship.

You don't!

You think your country is "the free world", don't you?

I'm sorry to tell you that EU propaganda against the US is saying something else. Most Swedish and Danish citizens I know think that the US is alot WORSE than sovietunion ever was. You US citizens (as I refuse to call you "Americans") have no idea.

On the other hand, I can't say I blame you for beliving that your country is a free one. The propaganda in the US is so intense.

Whenever I see the newspaper here in Sweden or in the UK - G. W. Bush looks like a moron. They prefer to publish pictures where he's got stupid expressions.

When I came to the US (A couple of months ago - I have cousins there) the pictures of Bush in the newspapers where totaly different, he looked alot smarter and somewhat cool in his trenchcoat and hat.

Human rights? What's with vietnam? Was that a humane thing to do?

Marty Ward

July 15th, 2001, 08:42 PM

From a sports standpoint having China host the games is long overdue. The country contains about 1/6th of the worlds population. They are competitive in most events and dominate some. It's about time they had "the home field advantage".

The Olympics are not suppose to be about politics they are suppose to be about sport. Why we insist on making it political is beyond me but as far as I can tell it's mostly western countries who start the debate.

CaptSpoogy

July 15th, 2001, 08:58 PM

CW - Don't assume ALL the west is moulding China into an enemy. Personally being from Toronto, with one of the largest ethnic Chinese communities in the world - I have met and work with a lot of Chinese people who have shared with me their experiences in China - and why they choose to come to Canada.

[Quote]While I agree that China could make use of a better government system, it seems rather strange that people not even living in the country is pushing for a change harder than the Chinese themselves.[quote]

Perhaps it's because they get mowed down by tanks or just plain disappear when they do...

I sympathize with the people living in China and I wish them to enjoy the freedoms that I have. In some ways I'm glad they got the olympics - but it worries me that the people who control China will use it as a propaganda display saying there's no problem with their country during those 16 days...

I'm not saying that China should become like the west (not just the US). I think in this day and age that should be moving towards democracy a lot faster than they are. If the majority of Chinese know what the west was really like (as oppossed to the propaganda fed to them) - what lifestyle would they choose?

Lucanos - Please be careful not to heap in Canada in the same pile as the US. Just because we're on the same continent and share a lot of things does not mean we practice the same politics or culture. I've lived in both countries - and find that Canadian politics have a lot more in common with European countries.

Also with the US, it varies from region to region. The Northwest for example is suprisingly different from the south and so on. I'm sure the Americans on this board will agree. Sure they messed up a lot of things, but they're really not that bad - plus without them you guys in Europe might still be living in a Nazi regime...

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CaptSpoogy

July 15th, 2001, 09:08 PM

I know the Olympics are supposed to be about sports and not politics. But the current view is that Beijing got the Olympics as a result of politics and coporate push. Those multi-national corporations just can't wait to get their hands on such a big market you know.

If it was just about sport, then why didn't they choose Toronto? The world's must diverse multi-cultural city? Geez, then everyone could have cheered for their native countries (instead of just the Chinese cheering the Chinese to dominate over everyone else)...it seems it could have been a more global thing doesn't it?

Oh well. I hope Toronto bids again for 2012. Although I'll probably be living in Vancouver by then - rats - but then again they're up for the 2010 Winter games - alright Olympic Hockey!

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capnq

July 15th, 2001, 09:19 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>definitely not helped by your local Press. Bad things always got colourfully exaggerated many times over and put on the front page, good things rarely if ever got mentioned. Beware that what you see on the news might not be the whole picture.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This description fits most of the media outlets that I know of. The weaker a radio or TV station's news Ratings, or the lower a newspaper or magazines' circulation, the more sensationalized their coverage becomes. "If it bleeds, it leads." I believe this is a worldwide problem; the rest of the world's perception of the U.S. is no more accurate than the U.S.' view of their respective nations.

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Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Marty Ward

July 15th, 2001, 09:20 PM

Capt.,
Toronto didn't get it because the US wants the 2012 games held in Baltimore/Washington. Unfortunately the political games overshadow the real games.

Luc,
You're right the US is not a Democracy, we are a Republic and the election was held properly according to the laws in effect at the time of the election.

You must have spent a lot of time in our country. I've lived here over 50 years and haven't seen any country side that looks like a poor South American country. Maybe I've just been lucky.

PS-Europeans may think Bush is a moron but he was smart enough to get elected President of the most powerful country in the world. Would he have been smarter if he were elected Prime Minister of Sweden?

Zarix

July 15th, 2001, 09:46 PM

I think everyone here has forgotten that things work differently in different cultures.

Here is an example:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Marty Ward:
PS-Europeans may think Bush is a moron but he was smart enough to get elected President of the most powerful country in the world. Would he have been smarter if he were elected Prime Minister of Sweden?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know about Sweden but in Finland getting voted to president doesn't mean you have to be very smart. Usually the person doesn't matter much but the persons party matters. If the person would matter I'd bet that the Finnish president wouldn't be divorced single parent and a woman.

Edit: I just remembered that she remarried some time ago.

[This message has been edited by Zarix (edited 15 July 2001).]

Puke

July 15th, 2001, 09:47 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lucanos:
Human rights? What's with vietnam? Was that a humane thing to do?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i donno, ask the French. they were there first.

As for the US being a free country, I think we have less restricting laws on firearms than just about anywhere else in the world. I think we have some opressive laws on drug use and pornography. I think the oppressive laws we do have, and the choices we lack, are by far made up by in the vast increase in standard of living that we have over other first world countries. for example, the price of comodities like petrol, the wide varities and availability of luxury items at grocery stores, such as scented quilted paper to wipe our butts with. comparativey, we are a nation of hedonists.

I think our race riots are not any worse than the race riots in the UK, and are certainly better than the **** that goes on in places like Israel and Serbia.

I think our poor are in general better off than most peoples poor. People like to poo-poo on the US, and on our forign policies, and our domestic situation. all in all, i think its pretty danm good. I think we do more good in the international community than would be done if we were not there doing it. And I dont really care that our election system is screwed up. there are enough political extremists around here, on every side of an issue, that things tend to work them selves out without more moderate people having to worry about it. We can sit back and rest assured that there are enough rabble-roUsers out there to fight the good fight for us.

man, I cant even start thinking about how good we have it, without getting all warm and fuzzy inside.

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

Baron Munchausen

July 15th, 2001, 10:03 PM

Well, this thread has taken an interesting twist. First, yes the IOC sucks. That's what the scandal of the past few years was about. Just because open bribery has been sort of 'cleaned up' we should not assume that they are beyond improper influence. I don't doubt that all the nations involved in this year's competition were using various "behind the scenes" influences. China just happened to have the most effective methods this year.

The political discussion that has grown out of this initial point is quite fascinating. It is of course a joke that the industrialized nations of Europe/North America are called the 'free world'. Nothing is 'free' in the capitalized world, especially political opinion. They just suppress dissent by cleverer means than the ham-handed 'communists' and similar dictators. It's a bit hard to get your political opinion into the mass media if it doesn't have the support of either the Democratic or Republican parties in the US, for example. We had FIVE qualified national candidates in the Last Presidential election. How many were in the "Presidential Debates"? Two. The two representing the parties with hundreds of millions of dollars to spend. Keep on rockin' in the 'free world'!

The United States is a Republic by formal definition but in practice it's some sort of Plutocracy or Oligarchy. You cannot get into political life without huge amounts of wealth. If you're not born into it -- which both of the 'recognized' candidates in the Last Presidential election were, btw -- you have to get 'sponsors' among the money-classes. Thus the profession of "politician" is actually 'fund-raiser' most of the time. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Yet, in the most bizarre twist of all, most of the 'white middle-class' population think they live in a democracy! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/confused.gif The European nations are somewhat better because they tend to have 'proportional' representation and public funding of political parties. But they are still largely ruled by their corporate classes, just less severely.

Marty Ward:

How much of the Southern United States have you seen? If you travel very far outside of a city in Alabama, Mississippi, or Louisiana you'll see some very 'third world' countryside. It's the classic 'vicious circle' that you see in Africa or South America. The people are poor and uneducated, so no one will locate any serious industry nearby to give them jobs. So they have no money and cannot get education/training to get decent jobs. The programmer's Deadly Embrace in social conditions. It's quite real but most of the victims are the Wrong Color to attract interest from the 'liberal' mass media, so it goes unreported. Then there are the "Indian Reservations" where those inconvenient ORIGINAL inhabitants of this continent are housed. They "weren't using the land" say the propoganda manuals^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Htext books in the public schools. Text books carefully supervised by the government and the huge corporations who own all mass publishing channels. Not using it? What is 'not using it'? Not chopping down all the trees and damming all the rivers and raping the land for minerals? Well, this is a nifty principle. If someone is "not using" their property in a way that I think they should, I have the right to take it??? So, the descendants of the rightful owners of this entire continent a now forced to live in abject poverty in deserts that aren't useful to the media-industrial complex. But they don't count either. Then there's Appalachia, where there are actually white people living in poverty. But that's too scary to be dealt with, so they have to be dismissed with a good label like 'white trash'. Obviously if you're white and not comfortably middle-class there's something wrong with you and you're 'white trash'... Yep, if you don't count people who aren't already middle-class there's no poverty in the US! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Besides, it would not look good to have real poverty in the US while we are haranguing all those 'third world' nations to join our trade treaties so they can become 'prosperous' like we are ...and lock their economic subordination into a legal structure. They might realize that "capitalism" does not automatically make everyone wealthy. They must not be allowed to realize that until it's too late or they might not sign the treaties. Thus the silence.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 15 July 2001).]

Phoenix-D

July 15th, 2001, 10:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Yet, in the most bizarre twist of all, most of the 'white middle-class' population think they live in a democracy!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be because most are idiots and/or do not care about the political system. Never was set up as a democracy. Democracy, like communism, appears to be one of those systems that might work in small communities but falls flat on it's face in large ones.

Lucanos
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
The difference between the chinese and you, in this sense, is that they know they live in a dictatorship.

You don't!

You think your country is "the free world", don't you?

I'm sorry to tell you that EU propaganda against the US is saying something else. Most Swedish and Danish citizens I know think that the US is alot WORSE than sovietunion ever was. You US citizens (as I refuse to call you "Americans") have no idea.

On the other hand, I can't say I blame you for beliving that your country is a free one. The propaganda in the US is so intense.

Whenever I see the newspaper here in Sweden or in the UK - G. W. Bush looks like a moron. They prefer to publish pictures where he's got stupid expressions.

When I came to the US (A couple of months ago - I have cousins there) the pictures of Bush in the newspapers where totaly different, he looked alot smarter and somewhat cool in his trenchcoat and hat.

Human rights? What's with vietnam? Was that a humane thing to do?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, Vietnam. Happened in the 1960s, early 70s. If you can bring that up, I can bring up France executing people right up to 1977.

Second, the death penalty. China excecutes a lot more people than the US does, and for lesser crimes. Not all US states allow the death penalty, and McVeigh was the first one to be federally exceucted in quite a while, I think.

Third, the papers- I'm curious, where was this? Local papers here gennerally do not show ANYTHING in a good light in their editorial comics. Heck, today's was a Chinese-looking guy in a suit with IOC on it, saying "We have no political repression, we merely outlaw unauthorized "issues advocacy"

That's actually a dig at the IOC AND a local Senator, John McCain, who constantly tries for "campaign finance reform", which appears to be mostly making lots of complicted rules so you need to pay lawyers just to campaign.

I'm also trying to figure out why a lot of people seem to think their local news is the only word. You called the EU news propaganda along with the US news, but then you go on to take their viewpoint!

Phoenix-D

[This message has been edited by Phoenix-D (edited 15 July 2001).]

Marty Ward

July 15th, 2001, 10:30 PM

Baron,

I've seen a small portion of our country, mostly the seaports and chemical production areas. Lots of visits to Tx., La., Ala. and Miss. Grew up in Maryland and have seen quite a lot of West Va, generally considered the poorest state in the nation.

Spent ~15 years in the merchant marine and have seen my fair share of third world nations.

I have never seen anything approaching the poorer areas of third world nations in the US. We have people who are poor in our country, that is not disputed. What we don't have are third world conditions. Go visit Somalia, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, or Brazil if you doubt me.

I just hate to see such slanted and generalized statements made about my country.

We had 5 qualified canidates? You give them to much credit http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

[This message has been edited by Marty Ward (edited 15 July 2001).]

Steve A

July 16th, 2001, 12:33 AM

It's interesting to see how many people feel that the other cultures are inferior and that the local slant is the only "truth". I guess it's fair to assume that everyone views are slightly biased towards the home team. With the various conflicting claims, it would be hard for an outsider to judge the relative credibility of tha participants.
Consider this: In how many places in the world could a debate like this take place in public? Which countries have laws protecting your freedom to express these ideas? Which countries allow virtually unrestricted communication of information across the internet, and which limit it.
Since most Users of this forum could be considered to have some expertize in the uses of and restrictions on the internet, which country's culture would you select to "govern" the internet? It would be interesting to see some honest answers to that one.

Steve A

JenMax

July 16th, 2001, 02:15 AM

Question? When was the most recent US presidental election held in which a person not born and reared in the upper classes of society ran for and was elected to the US presidency?

Baron Munchausen

July 16th, 2001, 03:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by JenMax:
Question? When was the most recent US presidental election held in which a person not born and reared in the upper classes of society ran for and was elected to the US presidency?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, it's not a hereditary aristocracy. Bill Clinton was a poor boy from the depths or Arkansas. But he had to suck-up to thousands and thousands of people who already had the money he needed to run his campaigns. Thus, he had to make promises to do things that would benefit them. Each and every congressman or senator also has to make so many promises and get into so many 'deals' that they are basically unable to act on their own sense of right and wrong by the time they get into office -- if they still HAVE a sense of right and wrong by then. Government is totally about power brokering now. Even if it always has been mainly about power brokering, there used to be the occasional outbreak of morality in the old days before mass-media dominated politics.

Quikngruvn

July 16th, 2001, 06:22 AM

Heh. I didn't realize bashing the US government was a worldwide sport, but I guess I should have....

The key word here is money. Especially in the past decade or so, it has taken more and more money to run a campaign to achieve (or keep) a political office in the US. As the good Baron mentioned, the money's got to come from somewhere-- mainly special-interest Groups, corporate entities, and wealthy individuals, all with their own agendas. Or, "he who has the money makes the rules."

In any US election, more than 90% of incumbents retain their office. Many run without any opposition, while others just have so much more money (from supporters) than any challenger.

'Course, then there is the case of Strom Thurmond, who is practically idolized in the state of South Carolina. He was re-elected to his eighth six-year term in the US Senate at the still-spry age of 94. Thankfully, he will not run for re-election next year, when he's 100 years old-- because he'd get re-elected (around here, it's considered sacrilege to believe that Strom will ever die). The bad thing is, even with the election more than a year away, the winner has all but been declared. Lindsey Graham very quickly got the money and political endorsements to seal the deal, before any challenger could even move to create a campaign war machine.

The point of that diatribe? It just illustrates another aspect of US governement, the "Good Ol' Boy" system. The people already in power, mostly rich white men in their 40's or 50's, decide who gets to join their club. They then have money poured into the candidates' campaigns (often from the national party's funds, but see above for where that cash came from) so that they can bring someone into office who will agree with their ideology. While in office, the Good Ol' Boys each promise to support the others' agenda in exchange for the others' support. National political office is an exclusive club, and you almost have to know the right people to get in.

Remember, this is the same country that elected a professional wrestler to the office of State Governor.

If there was a point to this post, I think it's this: most Americans realize that there are serious problems with the current form of US government, but are either too stupid, too lazy, or too complacent to do anything about it. Still, it beats many alternatives....

Quikngruvn (who honestly considers himself lucky to have been (cue Bruce Springsteen) "Born in the USA")

LazarusLong42

July 16th, 2001, 07:09 AM

July 16th, 2001, 11:47 AM

Just a quick respond to Capt_Spoogy

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:
CW - Don't assume ALL the west is moulding China into an enemy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I admit you are quite right in terms of politics, but it seems to me that subconsciously, Chinese somehow seems to be looked down as "second class" people by most westerners. I hope you can tell me I'm totally wrong.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>While I agree that China could make use of a better government system, it seems rather strange that people not even living in the country is pushing for a change harder than the Chinese themselves.

Perhaps it's because they get mowed down by tanks or just plain disappear when they do...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is not the primary reason at all. As I said before the leadership in China has been changed since the incident in 1989, and I really doubt that they will do the same thing again if a similar situation occurs again. Besides, using tanks to crush a protest is an over-kill! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

If you think the government in China is still a true and honest Communist government then you have got it totally wrong. Ever since the 1970 the place is becoming more and more of a capitalist world, that's why they had those hugh corruption cases involving PRIVATE Chinese coporations running into billions of dollars. As you guys living in Canada might have heard, the prime suspect for one of the largest corruption case in modern China is currently being detained in Canada.

Nowadays the top aganda for most people in China is the economy. They are A LOT more money-minded then they were 30 or 40 years ago when China was still running under a true Communist system, and politics has somewhat taken a second place since. Try going to Beijin and give the local people a lecture on Communism doctrines, they will tell you to get a life!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In some ways I'm glad they got the olympics - but it worries me that the people who control China will use it as a propaganda display saying there's no problem with their country during those 16 days...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In my opinion, the reason for Beijin's Olympic bid is much more economical than political. Besides, the local citizens want the Games themselves. This is a matter of nationalism or patriotism or whatever you want to call it. Bad government or not, China IS their mother country, this is more of a Chinese cultural thing than government propaganda as some of you suggested. Even if the Chinese government does try to use the occasion to tell the world they have a great system, will you believe it? Do you really think they want eggs all over their faces?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think in this day and age that should be moving towards democracy a lot faster than they are. If the majority of Chinese know what the west was really like (as oppossed to the propaganda fed to them) - what lifestyle would they choose?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all, do you think the Chinese government is still actively feeding propaganda about the west? That would be a rather silly thing to do nowadays. They wouldn't have done that AND let thousands of students travel overseas to study every year. I admit that they still try to censor things but it is already much more open then it used to, and I'm sure it will continue to change for the better. As to the pace of change, what are you basing your judgement on? What is slow and what is fast? Every country or culture has its own unique charateristic, it is simply wrong to apply one set of "rules" to another. Taiwan for example only had their first real general election Last year or the year before, and the Kuomintang (Nationalist Party) finally got kicked out of office after some 90 years in power. I bet nobody in China would want to see any political reform rushed, the current governemnt in China is perfectly stable and if that changes you might end up with a collapsed economy like Russia. In fact if you look at Zhu Rongji's speeches in meetings inside China, the first thing he talks about most of the time is how he is going to control corruption, which is currently unfortunately everywhere in China, an unwanted by-product of the economic reform. That is THE biggest headache-causing problem for the government right now instead of any political unrest in the country or any so called "politically incorrect" people.

As to choosing between the current Chinese life-style and western style, of cause they will choose the Western way! The key question here though, is WHY? Ever since the reforms in the 1970s and 80s, the people had their first real taste of wealth, or in too many cases the lack of it. For the thousands of migrants and boat people leaving China each year, how many do you think is really for political reasons? For the great majority of so called "IIs" (Illegal Immigrants) sneaking into Hong Kong after the 1970/80s Reform, they were looking for a better life. Though from what I saw their definition of "better life" had little to do with the political side of things.

My own family moved to Australia from Hong Kong in 1994. My parents, like a lot of others during that period made their decision due to the worry about the possible government instability after the "handover". But above all, they were worrying that the instability would ruin the economy and way of life in Hong Kong. If you look at the figures, there is a peak of people leaving Hong Kong due to the Tiananmen Square aftershock the few years immeidately after the event, but the number of people leaving each year gradually went down and now we are actually seeing people moving back. My own family will probably do the same too after I graduate from university.

The thing I want to point out here is that things in China is nowhere near as dramatic as many of you think.

[This message has been edited by CW (edited 17 July 2001).]

CaptSpoogy

July 16th, 2001, 02:43 PM

Marty - The official consensus why Toronto did not receive the olympics despite having the top bid was for geopolitical reasons which you touched on. It was time to give it to the largest populated country in the world...not because of the US 2012 bid...

IOC members have been quoted as saying they really want Toronto to run again in 2012...and I think if they do, the US won't have a chance...

------------------
Visit the Spoogy Federation at:
http://spoogyfederation.tripod.com

geoschmo

July 16th, 2001, 03:42 PM

The United States has problems, many of them glaring. But they are not "systemic", that is they are caused by or agravated by our form of government. If anything, our system of government has allowed us to prosper to such a degree that we have become complacent and apathetic to the problems of some of our citizens.

There are poor in the United States, but their standard of living is nowhere near as poor as those in other nations. Even in the most impoverished areas of the deep south, appalacia, or the southwest indian reservations people have food, shelter, clean water, and access to medical care and education. Reports to the contrary in the nightly news are only in the news because they are newsworthy, and so very rare. The poor of the United States complain that they have to deal with rats, the poor in other nations eat the rats.

The most recent presidential election was actually more noteworthy for the fact that BOTH major candidates were children of well-to-do, politically connected families. This is actually something of a rarity in our political system, especially at the highest levels. Most children of political families avoid it in their adult life because they have grown up seeing the less-desirable side of it.

Geoschmo

Lucanos

July 18th, 2001, 10:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
First, Vietnam. Happened in the 1960s, early 70s. If you can bring that up, I can bring up France executing people right up to 1977. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since the US basically has the same political system today as in the sixties - I can bring that up! And those god damn french idiots need some critisism - so go ahead.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Second, the death penalty. China excecutes a lot more people than the US does, and for lesser crimes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, and they execute "innocent" people, just as the US do. In my oppinion it doesn't matter how many you execute. I'm not "against" US death penalty, I'm just saying that it bears witness of how "far" the US legal system has evolved.

If a country needs to execute its population there also needs to be a major flaw in its political system. The death penalty shows us that the US political system is far behind in the evolution.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
I'm also trying to figure out why a lot of people seem to think their local news is the only word. You called the EU news propaganda along with the US news, but then you go on to take their viewpoint!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No Way! - I don't belive GW Bush is a retard - I belive he is very smart - and very "dangerous".

Phoenix-D

July 18th, 2001, 10:39 PM

I was talking mostly about..
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
The difference between the chinese and you, in this sense, is that they know they live in a dictatorship.

You don't!

You think your country is "the free world", don't you?

I'm sorry to tell you that EU propaganda against the US is saying something else. Most Swedish and Danish citizens I know think that the US is alot WORSE than sovietunion ever was. You US citizens (as I refuse to call you "Americans") have no idea.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>..that.

Phoenix-D

Lucanos

July 18th, 2001, 10:44 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Marty Ward:

Luc,
You're right the US is not a Democracy, we are a Republic and the election was held properly according to the laws in effect at the time of the election.

You must have spent a lot of time in our country. I've lived here over 50 years and haven't seen any country side that looks like a poor South American country. Maybe I've just been lucky.

PS-Europeans may think Bush is a moron but he was smart enough to get elected President of the most powerful country in the world. Would he have been smarter if he were elected Prime Minister of Sweden?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've heard alot of US politicians/millitary ppl say: "We must defend democracy" and such. If they weren't talking about the US maybe you know what democracy they were talking about?

Your question wether Bush would have been smarter if he was Swedish or not is irrelevant - since I was talking about PROPAGANDA. But I bet that swedish propaganda would have made Bush looked smarter if he was a Swedish minister.

I would also like to comment your statement: "...the election was held properly according to the laws in effect at the time of the election."

It shows us what kind of laws are in effect in your country. I want nothing to do with those laws, but unfortunantly I have no choice since the "too big corporations" are in power today.

And they really like that kind of UNCULTIVATED law.

Is there any culture, in the US, that doesn't bring any money? Except for a few idealists I don't think I've seen any.

Lucanos

July 18th, 2001, 10:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
I was talking mostly about.. ...that
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...ahhh. Okay, I see. Those anti-US thoughts comes mostly from the cultural elite, and in this case the propaganda reflects the thoughts if this "elite" - not the other way around.

Europe is not "better" than US in any way, Im not saying that.

But I think we have some thoughts regarding some negative aspects of your country, that is coherent with reality - that most of the US citizens don't.

Most US citizens I've been speaking to, actually think that their country is "the best country in the world".

I like Sweden - because swedish taxpayers have payed for my education, healthcare (almost free in sweden), and has given me alot of money when I was out looking for a job. Of course, I'm a patriot - a nationalist - I love sweden.

But I KNOW that Sweden is not perfect - that many countries in the third world has things that we don't.

Money isn't everything.

Lucanos

July 18th, 2001, 10:58 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:

Lucanos - Please be careful not to heap in Canada in the same pile as the US. Just because we're on the same continent and share a lot of things does not mean we practice the same politics or culture. I've lived in both countries - and find that Canadian politics have a lot more in common with European countries.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would NEVER compare an evolved nation such as canada with a barbaric lowlife nation such as the US.

That is why I pointed out that I knew you were from Canada so you wouldn't feel bad when I critizised the US.

Unfortunantly I failed.

Alpha Kodiak

July 19th, 2001, 12:35 AM

It's funny how people love to criticize the U.S. as a "barbaric, lowlife nation", right up until they want our money....

Phoenix-D

July 19th, 2001, 01:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I've heard alot of US politicians/millitary ppl say: "We must defend democracy" and such. If they weren't talking about the US maybe you know what democracy they were talking about?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe because they say what sounds good? I trust a politician- especiallly a career one like, oh, Strom Thurmond (this guy ran against Truman from President in the 1940s, and he's STILL in the Senate)- about as far as I can throw them.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
But I KNOW that Sweden is not perfect - that many countries in the third world has things that we don't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Best does not equal perfect.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I like Sweden - because swedish taxpayers have payed for my education, healthcare (almost free in sweden), and has given me alot of money when I was out looking for a job. Of course, I'm a patriot - a nationalist - I love sweden.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You ARE aware that many Americans think that's wrong, right?

Our welfare system encourages leeching, really.

Heathcare- Canada apparently has a similar system. Lots of Candians come to the US for various proceedures. (aside from prescription drugs, which are ususally cheaper elsewhere because of price caps, amoung other reasons).

If you can't get an education here (past high school), you've got a problem. Between the scholarships- some offered because of merit, some because of financial situation- grants (see scholarships), low-interest, delayed payback loans and lowcost local community colleges (at least in Arizona, dunno about other states), and work-study programs, you should be able to afford an education.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
barbaric lowlife nation
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gee, thanks, I'll remember that the next time I send a letter to my Congressman about aid to other countries. You know, like the debts accumulated during WW2/1 that I think ONE nation payed back? The Marshal plan? (I'd quote more recent, but I don't have specifics offhand) The various relief organizations too, though not all of those are government funded.

Guess you'll have to get off the internet too then, seeing how it was designed mostly by US scientists..

Oh, and please explain to me why, if the US is a barbaric nation, immigrents from various countries attempt to enter all the time?

Do I need to go on?

Any country has it's failings. The US has plenty of them.

EDIT: speaking of which..

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
But I think we have some thoughts regarding some negative aspects of your country, that is coherent with reality - that most of the US citizens don't.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Explain something, please. This actually applies to both sides here, but-what negative aspects are you talking about, and why would you have a better perspective than US citizens? Where are you getting your information? You've already admitted the local news sources are propaganda right along with US news, so it isn't that, is it?

Phoenix-D

[This message has been edited by Phoenix-D (edited 19 July 2001).]

Suicide Junkie

July 19th, 2001, 01:47 AM

They're powering up their incinerator beams!

Raise shields! Full power to the engines! We'll not be caught in this potential flame war! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Alpha Kodiak

July 19th, 2001, 03:35 AM

Phoenix-D: If I guess correctly, looks like we've got Arizonans, back-to-back.

The world doesn't stand a chance! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

July 19th, 2001, 04:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It's funny how people love to criticize the U.S. as a "barbaric, lowlife nation", right up until they want our money....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As an outsider (not living in the US), I can tell you the rest of the world doesn't think money is everything.

Alpha Kodiak

July 19th, 2001, 04:45 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by CW:
As an outsider (not living in the US), I can tell you the rest of the world doesn't think money is everything.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nor do I. I merely find it frustrating that people/nations criticize the U.S. quite harshly, then come to us begging for money.

Your complaint was that people from the west look at people from the east as second class people. I do not feel that way at all. Please do not assume that because I live in the United States that I think money is everything.

Remember too, that not that long ago in the grand scheme of things, American blood mingled with Chinese blood stopping the Japanese from from taking all of China. Perhaps we are not so evil as people would make us out to be....

Baron Munchausen

July 19th, 2001, 05:53 AM

The heat of this thread is certainly unexpected. I guess lots of people who watch the news and fume about high-handed US behavior are taking out their frustrations here. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I think US defenders need to understand that US 'bashers' are quite familiar with the fact that we lead the world in many areas. But, we do NOT lead the world in ALL areas. You would never guess that from watching/listening to US media, though. Especially political news and advertising. The constant 'patriotic' bragging and preening got so nauseating during the Reagan years that you could hardly stand to turn on the TV. It's subsided a bit since then, yet it's still far too prevalent. The attitude problem that our government displays in international contexts, crashing around like the proverbial bull in the china shop, doesn't help either. So, large numbers of Europeans who've been seeing this stuff for years run across this thread in the Shrapnel GAMES forums and vent at it. Hmm, maybe they should write letters to the editors at CNN.com, ABC/CBS/NBC.com, FOXNEWS.com, etc. They might actually attract some attention and get a feature story about the perceived arrogance of the US abroad.

July 19th, 2001, 07:12 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Perhaps we are not so evil as people would make us out to be....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not at all. You guys are not evil. I'm merely suggesting that some of your country's policies can be counter-productive, and some of the common views in your country are not entirely the fact.

[This message has been edited by CW (edited 19 July 2001).]

Alpha Kodiak

July 19th, 2001, 08:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by CW:
Not at all. You guys are not evil. I'm merely suggesting that some of your country's policies can be counter-productive, and some of the common views in your country are not entirely the fact.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some would imply that we're pretty bad. (Or perhaps the term "barbarian" was used in its original meaning, "foreigner", which would be accurate for anyone not from the U.S. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif )

My response was specifically related to your statement that implied that for us, money is everything. While that may be true for some, as it is in other countries as well, it is definitely not true for all.

As for the rest, I agree with you that not all commonly held views in this country are accurate. I would also state that not all commonly held views ABOUT this country are accurate.

Lucanos

July 19th, 2001, 11:11 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Gee, thanks, I'll remember that the next time I send a letter to my Congressman about aid to other countries. You know, like the debts accumulated during WW2/1 that I think ONE nation payed back? The Marshal plan? (I'd quote more recent, but I don't have specifics offhand) The various relief organizations too, though not all of those are government funded.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, right - US foreign aid is something special? While you give away some money to the third world you also collect interest from the same - an amount that is more than three times higher than the so called "aid" you are giving. That is barbaric indeed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:

Guess you'll have to get off the internet too then, seeing how it was designed mostly by US scientists..
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While internet (along with most of the computerparts inside my computer today) has been invented in the US most of my computer nerd friends agree that the development of computers would have come much farther if Bill Gates had nothing to do with it.

Bill gates' methodology (take what you can and dont give a **** about anyone else) is a barbaric one - and also shows us what kind of thinking occurs in the US.

btw, invention and scientific research has nothing to with if a country is cultivated or barbaric.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:

Oh, and please explain to me why, if the US is a barbaric nation, immigrents from various countries attempt to enter all the time?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because of the money. They don't immigrate because of the culture (you think?).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:

Explain something, please. This actually applies to both sides here, but-what negative aspects are you talking about, and why would you have a better perspective than US citizens? Where are you getting your information? You've already admitted the local news sources are propaganda right along with US news, so it isn't that, is it?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think europeans have way more insight in the US than the other way around (thanks to TV and Hollywood).

Take ricki lake for example - what kind of twisted moral is that?

The negative aspects are mostly:

-the US is too centralized
-People starve
-People get executed
-****ed up morality
-The US citizens are religious fanatics
-The US are a threat to the environment (like when they said no to stop producing mines, or when they said no to kyoto/kioto - or however it's spelled)
-US foreign aid is not enough (compared to swedish foreign law)

I could go on...

Kimball

July 19th, 2001, 02:23 PM

Lucanos

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lucanos:

-The US are a threat to the environment (like when they said no to stop producing mines, or when they said no to kyoto/kioto - or however it's spelled)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of the reasons Bush backed out of the Kyoto treaty is simple...CO2 production. The treaty stipulates that developed nations, such as the US, has to reduce their CO2 production, while third world countries DO NOT.

The US has roughly 7% of the world's population and manages to produce about 25% of the CO2 released into the atmosphere. To the uninformed that sounds incredible. However, that 7% of the world that produces 25% of the CO2, just happens to produce 25% of the world's Gross National Product. Funny how that works out, isn't it? So, if the US reduces CO2, it would, in a sense, be reducing the World's GNP. What effects do you think that would have on the economies of the world? How much are you willing to pay for a computer or a pair of Levi's?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
-US foreign aid is not enough (compared to swedish foreign law)
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The US does more than its fair share of helping other countries. I could spend hours ripping apart the above statment. If the US cut off the aid it gives to other countries, the impact would be felt by the entire planet in one way or another.

The more the US tries to help other countries, foreigners accuse us of "sticking our noses into other people business." Based on that alone, why should we help anyone, especially when you say we have our own starving people?

If the US is as unwilling to help as you say, Lescanos, you would be speaking German right now.

July 19th, 2001, 02:31 PM

Before this arguement gets out of hand, may I ask everyone to back off and calm down some before we continue please? This thread is really getting "hot".

Nitram Draw

July 19th, 2001, 02:35 PM

No problem.
I don't mind having a heated discussion. If anyone has taken any of my Posts to be personel attacks I apologize, I didn't mean to do it.
I do love my country though so don't expect me not to respond ok. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

Kimball

July 19th, 2001, 02:36 PM

Sorry, my reply was not as harsh as it sounded. I re-read it, and it does sound heated.

No offense meant, Lescanos, I apologize for the tone of the message.

HiveLordJim

July 19th, 2001, 02:38 PM

I think it very hypocritical of a North American (U.S. in particular) to criticise another country for human rights violations.
Your cities are founded on the sites of villages your �Forefathers� massacred; your soil fertilised with the carcases of millions of Native Americans; your economy was built upon the backs of tens of millions of African slaves.
�The Constitution� which espouses equality among men was constructed by slave owners while they hired immigrants to murder women and children.
The U.S. is the ONLY country in the world EVER to have used a nuclear weapon against another people � its effects still being felt by the civilians they were used on.
The U.S. was one of the first nations of the industrial age (if not the first ever) to use germ warfare against another people (evil Saddam indeed).
The U.S. government has a 225 year history of greed and treachery in regard to foreign policy.
While delaying coming to the aid of a world at war U.S governments and U.S. companies sell weapons to the enemies of their allies.

Your people are so proud of what they have achieved. The reason you are the most hated country in the world is not because of your success, it�s because you are not ashamed of how you achieved that success.

geoschmo

July 19th, 2001, 03:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by HiveLordJim:
I think it very hypocritical of a North American (U.S. in particular) to criticise another country for human rights violations.
Your cities are founded on the sites of villages your �Forefathers� massacred; your soil fertilised with the carcases of millions of Native Americans; your economy was built upon the backs of tens of millions of African slaves.
�The Constitution� which espouses equality among men was constructed by slave owners while they hired immigrants to murder women and children.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>All true, and all totally irrelevant to the conversation at hand. You are bringing up evils that the united states has committed over 100 years ago. Everybody guilty of these crimes you mention is dead and buried. Tianamin square was TEN years ago. The parties responsible for that are still in power in many cases.

Besides the fact that almost every nation in the world today exsists over the bones of some displaced or massacered indigenous population. "Give Europe back to the Cro-Magnon Man! They were there first!"
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The U.S. is the ONLY country in the world EVER to have used a nuclear weapon against another people � its effects still being felt by the civilians they were used on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Uh, yeah. This is true to, only beacuse we were the first to develop it. You don't think Hitler or Tojo would have loved dropping the nuke on us if they had got it first? And the fact remains that more Japanese lives would have been lost in an invasion than were lost in the two atomic bobms that were dropped.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The U.S. was one of the first nations of the industrial age (if not the first ever) to use germ warfare against another people (evil Saddam indeed).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Uh, when did we do this? I know we developed germ warfare, but they were never used. We used chemical agents in Vietnam, but those weren't designed to kill or maim people. They were designed to clear foilage so enemy positions could be discovered.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The U.S. government has a 225 year history of greed and treachery in regard to foreign policy.
While delaying coming to the aid of a world at war U.S governments and U.S. companies sell weapons to the enemies of their allies.

Your people are so proud of what they have achieved. The reason you are the most hated country in the world is not because of your success, it�s because you are not ashamed of how you achieved that success.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Whatever.

Geo

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 19 July 2001).]

dogscoff

July 19th, 2001, 03:22 PM

I'm kicking myslf already for getting into this but I had to make this point:

QUOTE:
However, that 7% of the world that produces 25% of the CO2, just happens to produce 25% of the world's Gross National Product ... So, if the US reduces CO2, it would, in a sense, be reducing the World's GNP.
/QUOTE

Sorry but that argument is nonsense. You don't *need* to produce C02 to generate GNP. The two _are_ currently linked, but that link can and must be broken. As one of the world's richer and more technologically advanced nations the US should be helping to set an example by switching that GNP to renewable energy.

QUOTE:
What effects do you think that would have on the economies of the world? How much are you willing to pay for a computer or a pair of Levi's?
/QUOTE

The question is, how much are *you* willing to pay? At the moment it's costing you your environment. (And mine.)

------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so Brain but, if you replace the P with an O, my name would be Oinky, wouldn't it?"

Kimball

July 19th, 2001, 03:30 PM

True, Dogscoff. I just wanted to make a point. I have rather enjoyed hearing how we, the US, are such horrible people.

Oh, well, at least I can call my president an idiot (for backing out of Kyoto amoung other things) without getting thrown in jail, or just disappearing, like in certain communist countries. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

Nitram Draw

July 19th, 2001, 03:46 PM

The Kyoto agreement is pretty much of a joke. Assigning allowable pollution levels, how does that work? When have 55 nations ever agreed on anything for more than 25 years. We will reduce pollution when we develop alternative fuels, it's as simple as that and it won't be developed here or in Europe. The oil companies (Royal Dutch Shell, British Petroleum, Elf, Exxon) are too powerful.

HiveLord,
Should we just stand by and let human rights abuse occur because of our past? Do we need to wait until some non-guilty country points it out and then asks for our help?

capnq

July 19th, 2001, 04:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think europeans have way more insight in the US than the other way around (thanks to TV and Hollywood).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If you honestly believe that TV and Hollywood accurately portray life in the US, your naivete' (sp?) frightens me. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The negative aspects are mostly:

-the US is too centralized
-People starve
-People get executed
-****ed up morality
-The US citizens are religious fanatics
-The US are a threat to the environment (like when they said no to stop producing mines, or when they said no to kyoto/kioto - or however it's spelled)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I can't think of a country on Earth that has none of these problems. Many don't execute criminals, and a few don't have strong religious convictions, but every other problem you list is endemic to humanity. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>-US foreign aid is not enough (compared to swedish foreign law)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>A lot of the people who are actually paying the taxes to provide that foreign aid think it's excessive, especially since a lot of it ends up greasing the pockets of corrupt foreign officials rather than actually helping people. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The U.S. was one of the first nations of the industrial age (if not the first ever) to use germ warfare against another people (evil Saddam indeed).

Uh, when did we do this? I know we developed germ warfare, but they were never used. We used chemical agents in Vietnam, but those weren't designed to kill or maim people. They were designed to clear foilage so enemy positions could be discovered.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I suspect he's referring to giving Native Americans blankets that had belonged to smallpox victims. Germ warfare was around long before the Industrial Age, though.

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

parwez

July 19th, 2001, 04:26 PM

Hey Kimball,

In defense of the former communist countries.
when in one of the Baltic countries (Estonia, Lithinua, Lativia) as opposed to balkland - around Former Yugoslovia)
had only one candidate standing in the elections (no surprises there) and the majority of the electrorate crossed out the name or indicated they wanted to vote against him. The candidate was not elected.

In OUR liberal democracies, (I live in the UK) we cannot vote against a candidate and if a candidate stands unopposed, (s)he get automatically elected.

and you are naive if you think people only disappear outside liberal democracies and our governments are there to serve the public interest whilst those over there only serve the ruling party.

Our governments have better spin-doctors, are more subtle at manipulating facts and we are less critical of them, then people in the countries ('where people disapear').

Our education system is based on the system that came into force during WW2, when the pirority was a loyal, obident workforce.

In the words of Pink Floyd, we don't need no mind control, ...hey teacher leave that kid alone.

It's not the people in the US or UK that are horrible, it's the governments. The people are okay, those who see through the lies are simply labled by the state as trouble makers and are linked with trouble makers.

If a capitalist factory owner was to pollute a river with his waste, it would be unreasonable to treat all factory owners as if this was their intention.

Yet when a single protestor goes beyond the limit, of what is acceptable, all the treated by the states as if they intention was the same. This was the message is lost and action can be delayed. The big companies backing BUSH, know they will loss the battle eventually when it becomes blantly obvious to all the damage they are causing, but they want to delay that date as much as possible, so they can make a quick buck, or position themselves better in the market place for the next round

Nitram Draw

July 19th, 2001, 04:59 PM

Parwez,
Sometimes I wish we could vote for none of the above. Glad you can do it.
I see a lot of critisism of the US government, here and elsewhere, by Europeans. I'd like to remind them that our country has been in existence, is basically its current form, longer than Italy, Belguim, Germany, Denmark, Austria, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia and numerous nations. Keep that in mind when you bash the US for being an incompentant/cruel nation. We taught you a lot, if you were observent.

parwez

July 19th, 2001, 05:05 PM

Re china and olympics, death penalty, communism & democracy

China getting the olympics is a double-edged sword.

firstly they won't people to crack down on the protestors as harshley as the world's media spot-light will be on them and belive me the protestors are going to make the most of this fact.
With many chinese protestors comming into the country as spectotors, you think the handling of the recent anti-capitalist riots were bad, when live ammo was used, China is alot of things but they are not **STUPID**.

Remember China lost the 2000 bid, because of bribery and the fact that countries like Britain after voting made it clear, that their criteria for voting for Australia had nothing to do with merit.

Oh yeah and regarding the death penalty, China asked America (sorry) the US, to stop executing criminals with the mental age of children.

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif Shame, how can any country justify that position!

(I am not chinese, and belive communism is flawed, I also reject capitalism)*

*I will relate an incident from my school during history class, when we covered communist as an idelogy the teacher after explaining communism asked, people what was good about it/what would make it a success and the kids rolled off a list of points.

Then she asked what was bad about it & why would prevent it from working.

The whole class went quite.
I though about it for a while and started http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/tongue.gif grinning, she asked me what was so amusing, I replied "INTELIGENCE".

She asked me to explain, I said anybody was was smarter in a communist system would find a way to cheat the system.

All it would take is one person who was both smarter and willing to cheat the system and the ideal of every body contributing according to his ability and receiving according to its need could not be achieved.

If many people did this the system would collapse, great in theory, but unworkable once the numbers get large.

The same hold true for democracy, where the ignorant, masses who are easy to manipulate decide the outcome of an election / decession making process.

parwez

July 19th, 2001, 05:21 PM

Actually Nitram,
we can't vote for none-off the above in the UK. It was something that the former communist countries permited. I don't know if that is still the case. I suspect by now they have learnt the rules of the game and wouldn't make the same mistake again.

Not being able to vote against candidates is the biggest problem with democracy.

I have stood as an independent in both council and national elections in the UK. and came very close once.

We have managed to get 5 independent councillors in Birmingham and it has made a real difference. Before the local labours councillors wouldn't spend the money they were allocated, so that the underspend could be sent back to national government, they would reallocate money ear-market for education in deprived areas across the whole city, which rasied their prospects of promotion within their party.

In kidderminister, a single issue 'keep our hospital' was enough for the independents to take control of the council and get an MP in the house of commons.

In many seats, the numbers of voters who can be bothered is very small.

It reminds me of Michale more in the US, when they tried to get a fern (I think) elected into the senate and the fern got more votes than a senator, that was running unopposed.

Whilst the election commission, accepted the application form, it rejected it after the senator lost.

They make the rules and they will change the rules to keep themselves in power. All we can do is win a skirmish here or there and win a right that was our to begin with.

The act of participating, means they have to become more responsive, take the Green movement, they didn't get many MP's but these issues are not being discussed.

Nitram Draw

July 19th, 2001, 05:35 PM

I read a comment that made sense. It said one of the good things about China getting the Olympics was that relations with Tiawan should remain static until after the games, not much chance of them invading before they get their cash! Guess it's a pretty good benefit.

Phoenix-D

July 19th, 2001, 05:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>With many chinese protestors comming into the country as spectotors, you think the handling of the recent anti-capitalist riots were bad, when live ammo was used, China is alot of things but they are not **STUPID**.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where you getting your information from? The Last I heard, they were using the "semi-lethal" rubber bullets. Still went overkill, and with some weird crap going on apparently, but not with live ammo..and them using/not using live ammunition is probably *not* something the admitadly moronic american press would not mention.

(I say rubber bullets are semi-lethal because at close range they CAN do significant damage)

Phoenix-D

Baron Munchausen

July 19th, 2001, 06:01 PM

Ah, well. Draw up a chair & warm yourself by the fire... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by HiveLordJim:
I think it very hypocritical of a North American (U.S. in particular) to criticise another country for human rights violations.
Your cities are founded on the sites of villages your �Forefathers� massacred; your soil fertilised with the carcases of millions of Native Americans; your economy was built upon the backs of tens of millions of African slaves.
�The Constitution� which espouses equality among men was constructed by slave owners while they hired immigrants to murder women and children.
The U.S. is the ONLY country in the world EVER to have used a nuclear weapon against another people � its effects still being felt by the civilians they were used on.
The U.S. was one of the first nations of the industrial age (if not the first ever) to use germ warfare against another people (evil Saddam indeed).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While these points are true in a general way, they are a bit over-drawn. Many of the Native Americans died from the diseases brought by Europeans. The "Mound Builder" cultures of the Southeast were apparently quite strong and numerous when De Soto first entered what is now Louisiana/Mississipi in the mid-16th century. But when the English settlers moved inland a century or two later they found only scattered bands of 'hunter gatherer' tribes and mysterious mounds with only a few remnants of structures on them. The best guess is that the diseases wiped out 90 percent or more of the populations and destroyed entire civilizations. Later, of course, the settlers got the idea to deliberately introduce diseases like small pox (the blanket trick). This is not new, though! Americans didn't invent the 'plague ship' trick. It dates back to ancient times. Putting some plague infected people on a ship and sending them into your rival's harbor is a well known strategy throughout the ancient world. So, not that there is any lack of massacres but the majority of the native population died of diseases.

The slaves are second only to the Native Americans in victimization, but they weren't QUITE as numerous as you suggest. The grand total of slaves exported from africa is estimated at 40 million, but 3/4 of them died enroute. This trade was begun by the Spanish and carried on by the English, btw. It's not like slavery was invented by the US. Of the surviving 10 million, most were kept in the Carribean area. Only about 1/2 million Africans were actually brought to the US. But the time of the Civil War there were about 4 million slaves in the Southern US while there were about 7 million 'whites' -- the minute the slaves arrived the races started blurring of course.

That said, it is very odd that we have a Holocaust Memorial in the US capital to commemorate atrocities committed by other nations on other continents and nothing to honor the original inhabitants and the slaves who contributed their land and civilization, and their lives, respectively to building the 'greatness' of this nation that the jingoists constantly flog in our faces in the media. Of course it's more of an ego boost to make a fuss over someone ELSE's misdeeds than 'fess up to your own...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The U.S. government has a 225 year history of greed and treachery in regard to foreign policy.
While delaying coming to the aid of a world at war U.S governments and U.S. companies sell weapons to the enemies of their allies.

Your people are so proud of what they have achieved. The reason you are the most hated country in the world is not because of your success, it�s because you are not ashamed of how you achieved that success.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Our people? Our government, or our "ruling elite" you mean. Industrialists, bankers, etc. Many of our 'people' are just as exploited as the third world. But yes, like any successful empire the US is quite remorseless in exploiting anyone and anything that it can. The US is still the #1 seller of arms in the world more than a decade after the flimsy excuse of the "Cold War" is gone. Anything to make a buck/get ahead. And then stand on the stump and flog your wealth as proof of how 'great' you are. Yech... it's another classic case of 'funny if it weren't tragic' I think.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 19 July 2001).]

Alpha Kodiak

July 19th, 2001, 06:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lucanos:
<snip>
-The US citizens are religious fanatics
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry that my desire to worship God in my own way offends you, but you will find that there are now many countries with stronger religeous convictions than the U.S.

Actually, many of the early colonists came to the United States to find religeous freedom. Are you trying to call that a bad thing?

Baron Munchausen

July 19th, 2001, 06:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
I'm sorry that my desire to worship God in my own way offends you, but you will find that there are now many countries with stronger religeous convictions than the U.S.

Actually, many of the early colonists came to the United States to find religeous freedom. Are you trying to call that a bad thing?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think he's referring to the fact that many of the descendants of these "refugees from religious persecution" have become intolerant themselves and are just barely restrained from imposing their religious views on others by that inconvenient document called the Constitution.

Baron Munchausen

July 19th, 2001, 06:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dogscoff:
I'm kicking myslf already for getting into this but I had to make this point:

QUOTE:
However, that 7% of the world that produces 25% of the CO2, just happens to produce 25% of the world's Gross National Product ... So, if the US reduces CO2, it would, in a sense, be reducing the World's GNP.
/QUOTE

Sorry but that argument is nonsense. You don't *need* to produce C02 to generate GNP. The two _are_ currently linked, but that link can and must be broken. As one of the world's richer and more technologically advanced nations the US should be helping to set an example by switching that GNP to renewable energy.

QUOTE:
What effects do you think that would have on the economies of the world? How much are you willing to pay for a computer or a pair of Levi's?
/QUOTE

The question is, how much are *you* willing to pay? At the moment it's costing you your environment. (And mine.)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, I was listening to the 'horribly biased liberal media' the other day when I heard some actual REASONS to reject the Kyoto agreement. It seems that the way it was structured would force the US to pay a much higher price to reduce it's CO2 emissions than the Europeans. For example, the target date for the emissions standard was set at 1990. Well, at that time West Germany had just absorbed East Germany and had hordes of grungy old communist era industries with coal-fired power/machinery to shut down and/or rebuild. Since these had to be replaced anyway, setting the date at 1990 gives Germany a huge head start or 'credit' on meeting their goals. They get to cheat on the way their CO2 is measured, in other words. There's a similar cheat for Britain in that they are switching from coal to gas fired power plants, too. They had to do this anyway but with the date for measuring the emissions set at 1990 they get credit for this in the treaty. The US would be stuck with having to restructure its industries according to the treaty rather than getting to synchronize with a genuine need for industrial renewal of some sort. The person explaining this was none other than Newt Gingrich.

Nitram Draw

July 19th, 2001, 06:48 PM

Europeans protesting our use of slaves is a little strange seeing how slavery was used throughout most of Europe at one time or another. The only differance between our slaves and theirs was we only enslaved one race, they wern't as particular who they enslaved. At least we weren't like the Romans, we didn't make our slaves kill each other for our entertainment.

Alpha Kodiak

July 19th, 2001, 08:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
I think he's referring to the fact that many of the descendants of these "refugees from religious persecution" have become intolerant themselves and are just barely restrained from imposing their religious views on others by that inconvenient document called the Constitution.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, Baron, I find that those who reject religion are at least as intollerant of those who have religious beliefs than the other way around, network television to the contrary. That is not to say that there aren't those who try to force their views on others, only that the majority do not. Conversely, there are those who would eliminate my rights to even say what I believe, when I want to. They also run into that "inconvenient document called the Constitution."

That is part of what makes this country great. Neither extreme is able to muzzle the other, leaving the country in a fairly stable middle ground.

CaptSpoogy

July 19th, 2001, 08:31 PM

In regards to the Kyoto treaty:

The biggest problem today in North America is that most people don't care about global warming, or the enviroment. Smog in Canada and the US is getting worse all the time - so what do people do? They buy the latest big *** SUV, punching out 10mpg. Makes sense doesn't it? Why bother to work on reducing costs with alternative fuels? Encouraging mass transit? Unfortunately Mr.Bush is in the Whitehouse, so it'll be some time before anything is seriously done.

In Europe and Japan, they've had to develop sophisticated recyling techniques, pollution controls for a long time now. They are way ahead of us. Just because we still have our natural enviroments, the majority thinks that everything is still alright - when it's not.

I'm sure lots of people have seen it first hand. I live in Toronto and have watched the smog and traffic get worse each year. So what do they do? They start cutting mass transit budgets. The urban sprawl that's happening outside the city is disgusting. These new neighbourhoods with they're big houses that have 3-4 cars in every driveway. They build these huge housing developments and then force people into their cars by not building any neighborhood shopping nearby.

Nobody cares. They just shrug their shoulders and pursue the almighty dollar. Do anything to get ahead.

Nitram Draw

July 19th, 2001, 08:51 PM

Spoogy,
You are correct that the Europeans and Japanese have better mass transportation systems, particularly rail. A lot of this has to do with how they developed. In the US and Canada most goods are moved long distances by truck and most people get to work by car. There is not an extensive rail network here. Building a rail transportation would be extremely expensive.
I think our best hope is the development of an alternative fuel or engine type, fuel cells or the hybrid motors could do it.

CaptSpoogy

July 19th, 2001, 08:58 PM

It's true that a lot of immigrants want to go to the US. But for what reason? MONEY. It's true, I work with a lot of recent immigrants and while they choose Canada, they tell me how they considered or had been in the US to make MONEY. Not for freedom or rest from persecution, but MONEY.

I work in electronic assembly and they're always talking about how much MONEY they can get working the same job in the US. Blah blah, and SMT operator makes more in San Jose - blah blah.

But, in their final redemption I ask "Why did you come here to Canada then?" and they answer, it's for their families and the cultural mosiac that exists here etc. Shew, I'm glad not everything revolves around MONEY yet.

Interesting Story:

I met my wife on the internet. She lived in the Northwest US and I lived in Toronto, Canada. Long story short, I was going to immigrate to the US. Then I met the INS (Immigration and Naturalization Service) - the worst bureaucracy that ever existed in a democratic nation. I tried for months filling out forms and paying fees - to no avail. The INS works hard to keep people out of the country. Finally after wasting lots of money, we got married and decided to return to Canada. Within two months of filing her immigration papers, she was able to work, get free health care (that was my biggest fear when I was in the US - getting in an accident and owning $25,000 to some hospital!). The moral of the story: Come to Canada and still enjoy US television - but live happier and with less violence.

But for all my European friends and fellow US bashers (I know it's fun and all), while the US has lots of problems, everyday normal life there is not all that bad. The international media kinds of skews things.

CaptSpoogy

July 19th, 2001, 09:07 PM

Captain Spoogy endorses Hydrogen Fuel Cells.

*** Does anyone know a way to cheaply extract hydrogen from water? ***

Don't let those Gas companies fool you! Although hydrogen gas is dangerous - it's no more explosive then gasoline!

Imagine in 50 years, when every vehicle is equipped with fuel cells. It's the middle of summer, you look into your city and where smog used to blanket the city and distort the view of downtown - it's clear! Like on a crisp winter day.

Recycle! Don't drive! Take the bus! Don't litter! Do what you can to save the enviroment! Don't contribute to urban sprawl! Build UP not OUT!

If you ever get attacked by a bear or cougar in your yard - it's not the animal's fault!!! What the hell are you doing with a backyard in their habitat!!! Is there no where else you can live?

Nitram Draw

July 19th, 2001, 09:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:
Captain Spoogy endorses Hydrogen Fuel Cells.

*** Does anyone know a way to cheaply extract hydrogen from water? ***

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you do know how I think you will become quite rich http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Alpha Kodiak

July 19th, 2001, 09:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:
Captain Spoogy endorses Hydrogen Fuel Cells.

*** Does anyone know a way to cheaply extract hydrogen from water? ***
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's quite simple really: buy a gasoline generator and run it to generate electricity. Then use the electricity to seperate water into hydrogen and oxygen. No problem.... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon6.gif

Nitram Draw

July 19th, 2001, 09:50 PM

Here's how they work.
http://www.fuelcells.org

They may not be used extensively in my life time but the hold the most promise for curing our petroleum addiction.

Phoenix-D

July 20th, 2001, 12:04 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
It's quite simple really: buy a gasoline generator and run it to generate electricity. Then use the electricity to seperate water into hydrogen and oxygen. No problem.... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon6.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As opposed to setting up a large, electricty needing oil rig, drilling and pumping oil, then the process that prepares it for use, plus delivery?

Phoenix-D

Mephisto

July 20th, 2001, 01:46 AM

Ah, flames are getting higher. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Nitram Draw

July 20th, 2001, 01:52 AM

Luc,
You really should learn more about our country before you bash it.

Foriegn aid is free, no strings attached. I've worked on ships that delivered 1000's of tons of free food to many nations.

Immigrents definately come for the money and because we let them in. I don't know Swedens policies but I don't think many people immigrate there. I wouldn't try to guess the reasons.

Most Europeans think they are more cultured than Americans. Must be because they get so much of their views of what America is like from TV. Try visiting first. I've been to a lot of European nations and haven't found one that I would live in instead of America, no I haven't visited Sweden.

Why you would think we are centralized is beyond me. We are about as centralized as Europe. Most European nations are about the size of an average US state, with more people living in them. We have 50 separate State governments that work together to form a nation. That, and the physical size of the country, is something most Europeans hve a hard time grasping. We don't work like European countries.

People do not starve here, unlewss it is voluntary. We have our share of poor. I'm glad your country has eliminated that.

We don't want to be like Sweden any more than Sweden want to be like us. That's the way it should be.

One more thing. If you think Rikki Lake represents America something is wrong with your views, get out more. The only thing she represents if the freedom we allow for any type of comedy show, no matter how bad, to be broadcast.

dogscoff

July 20th, 2001, 01:58 AM

I'm starting to enjoy this. I hope Shrapnel don't shut it down=-)

------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so Brain but, if you replace the P with an O, my name would be Oinky, wouldn't it?"

Quikngruvn

July 20th, 2001, 04:27 AM

Capitalism... Communism... Socialism... Aneurism!

Much as I want to resist, I can't help putting in my two cents worth (and putting on my asbestos coveralls in the process):

Smog: George W is an oil man. No way he's gonna support anything that hurts that business. (And no, I did not vote for him.)

Religious fanatics? I haven't heard of any of the hundreds of religious denominations in the US declaring a jihad (a Holy War) on anyone or anybody. With the possible exception of Southern Baptists, who tried to boycott Disney because they offered the same corporate benefits to same-sex couples as to married couples. (These are the same people who, in a Sunday sermon, told the congregation my stepdaughter attended that if they watched the Super Bowl on Sunday, they'd go to Hell.) The rest of us laugh at the Southern Baptists. (If there are any Southern Baptists in the audience, no offense is intended. I calls 'em as I sees 'em, especially in the Belt Buckle of the Bible Belt.) So, yeah, sure, there are SOME religious fanatics, but they hardly make up a majority.

The Death Penalty: oh, this is tricky. For Exhibit A, I present the late (deservedly so, IMHO) Timothy McVeigh, put to death by the Federal Government for blowing up the Alfred Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City and killing 168 people in the process. Personally, I'm glad the US offed him, because (a) I don't think a person so depraved and evil deserves to live, and (b) it's a helluva lot cheaper than the citizens' tax dollars supporting him in prison for fifty or so years. (Call me money-grubbing, I call it practical.) Note well that Mr. McVeigh was the first person put to death by the Federal Government in 30-odd years. Yes, I support the death penalty, but ONLY in these most extreme circumstances for the most heinous of crimes. This is my opinion only: many of the family members of the bombing victims did not want to see Mr. McVeigh put to death, and actually forgave him for his actions. (Does a barbarian have the capacity to forgive?)

Further complicating the matter is that the vast majority of inmates put to death are by individual STATE governments, not the Federal Government. In most states, the maximum possible punishment is life imprisonment without parole. Many states that have the death penalty are considering doing away with it. Also, most death-row inmates wait eight to fifteen years from the time the sentence is handed down to the time they are either put to death, have their sentence commuted to something lesser, or freed as innocent. There is a very long and exhaustive appeals process that automatically kicks in for any inmate sentenced to death. The advent of DNA analysis has brought about the freedom of quite a few wrongfully-sentenced innocent inmates. If it weren't for that lengthy appeals process, who knows how many more innocent people would have been wrongfully put to death?

The "inconvenient document called the Constitution": just a little piece of paper that a large number of fledgling democracies have used as a framework for their own system of laws. Hey, it's only been modified twenty-six times in 212 years; ten times in the first couple of years (an insignificant list dubbed "the Bill of Rights), and one time to annul a previous amendment (the 21st amendment repealed the 18th amendment's Prohibition against alcohol). Besides, I happen to like being able to express my thoughts, practice my choice of religion (even if I don't), and socialize with whomever I please without fear of reprisal or of indiscriminate searches of my property, being tried more than once for a single crime, or having to testify against myself in a court of law.

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it." (I wish I could remember who said this....)

I love the idea of socialism. Unfortunately, it'll never fly in the US. People already think they give too much of their hard-earned wages to a wasteful and inefficient government.

And please, do NOT blame me for the actions of my forefathers. I've only been around for 28 years, and have yet to kill anyone, displace anyone, or desecrate anyone's sacred lands. I can sympathize with the plight of Native Americans, but I cannot and will not feel regret or remorse for actions I did not do. (By the way, Native Americans had no conception of land ownership. To them, the whole land belonged to everybody. The concept of an individual owning a parcel of land was brought to North America by European settlers.)

Finally, money isn't everything. It is a means to an end. "The love of money is the root of all evil." --Lord Acton (I remember that one!)

Now, if y'all will excuse me, I have a bomb shelter to jump into....

Quikngruvn

[This message has been edited by Quikngruvn (edited 20 July 2001).]

Krsqk

July 20th, 2001, 05:06 AM

Puke

July 20th, 2001, 07:32 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Quikngruvn:

Now, if y'all will excuse me, I have a bomb shelter to jump into....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, i have two things in response. first, in general: Amen, go tell it on the mountain.

second, regarding the recently Ex-McVeigh, or the former-McVeigh as you may prefer; I heard quoted on NPR his views on religion. went something like this:

NPR news man: While Timmothy McVeigh officialy claims to be an athiest, he was quoted thursday (this being the friday before his execution) responding to a question regarding his belief in the afterlife with these words, "If it turns out that I am wrong and there is an afterlife, I am prepared to improvise, adapt, and overcome."

I thought any leathernecks we have in the crowd would get a kick out of that one. even more so since it came from a (former) army man.

while my random comments might not have much to do with the hot topics at hand, hopefully we can all take a short laugh at.. well.. i guess the people who are bent about all the barbarism in The States would not really get much of a laugh out of that, huh?

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

[This message has been edited by Puke (edited 20 July 2001).]

Nitram Draw

July 20th, 2001, 12:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Puke:
well, i have two things in response. first, in general: Amen, go tell it on the mountain.

second, regarding the recently Ex-McVeigh, or the former-McVeigh as you may prefer; I heard quoted on NPR his views on religion. went something like this:

NPR news man: While Timmothy McVeigh officialy claims to be an athiest, he was quoted thursday (this being the friday before his execution) responding to a question regarding his belief in the afterlife with these words, "If it turns out that I am wrong and there is an afterlife, I am prepared to improvise, adapt, and overcome."

I thought any leathernecks we have in the crowd would get a kick out of that one. even more so since it came from a (former) army man.

while my random comments might not have much to do with the hot topics at hand, hopefully we can all take a short laugh at.. well.. i guess the people who are bent about all the barbarism in The States would not really get much of a laugh out of that, huh?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well it does point out on thing. It doesn't matter if you are religious or not. In the end the way it is is the way it is. No personal belief will change that. One thing is sure, we will all eventually find out who was right, not that it will matter then.

Quikngruvn

July 20th, 2001, 03:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Puke:
"If it turns out that I am wrong and there is an afterlife, I am prepared to improvise, adapt, and overcome."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That reminds me of the old bumper sticker, "Heaven doesn't want me and Hell's afraid I'll take over." Heh. Defiant to the bitter end....

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Krsqk:
Actually, it predates Lord Acton by a couple of years. "For the love of money is the root of all evil..."--St. Paul, First Epistle to Timothy
------------------
"The Unpronounceable" Krsqk
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My mistake. I always heard that quote attributed to Acton. I guess I should have spent more time in Sunday School....

("Unpronounceable"? I've been saying "CURSE-kick". Is that even close? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon6.gif )

Quikngruvn

------------------
"That which does not kill you will make you stronger." -- Nietzsche

[This message has been edited by Quikngruvn (edited 20 July 2001).]

Puke

July 20th, 2001, 07:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Quikngruvn:
("Unpronounceable"? I've been saying "CURSE-kick". Is that even close? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon6.gif )
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have been pronouncing it like the Russian sub that sunk while testing those super-cavilating torpedoes, or whatever theory you Subscribe to.

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

Krsqk

July 20th, 2001, 09:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>("Unpronounceable"? I've been saying "CURSE-kick". Is that even close? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon6.gif )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I have been pronouncing it like the Russian sub that sunk while testing those super-cavilating torpedoes, or whatever theory you Subscribe to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The Kursk? Is that it? I guess that gets my vote for the closest. In all honesty, I don't even know how to pronounce it. I think of it in one syllable, I guess. It's from my very first SE3 game, where I got stuck at the Empire Name dialog box. I couldn't come up with anything suitable, so I typed in something without vowels just because. I've always played as the Krsqk Empire since then.

Who knows? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/confused.gif

------------------
"The Unpronounceable" Krsqk
Basic Tech Mod
--Current changes list (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Krsqk/ModifiedStuff.txt)
--Future ideas list (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Krsqk/IdeastoAdd.txt)

Baron Munchausen

July 20th, 2001, 10:54 PM

Another case of "cultural imperialsm" in progress. Take a look at www.boycottadobe.org (http://www.boycottadobe.org) for information on this bizarre "intellectual property" fiasco. Adobe has got the FBI to arrest a Russian programmer for publicly speaking about the flaws in Adobe's "encryption" in it's secure PDF products. It's not encryption, it's stupid kiddie tricks like rot-13 and XORing. But for pointing this out, and for working for a company in RUSSIA outside US jurisdiction that sells products which can break this encryption, they got him arrested and apparently plan to press charges. This is the infamous DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act) at work. Would be interesting to see the reaction if European nations started arresting Americans who had violated their laws. Let's start with the privacy laws that give Europeans some control of their personal information. Any officer of just about any US corporation could be arrested and jailed for violation of those...

Can't wait to see the US govt. spokesdroids puff up and hiss like a cats if that happens.

AJC

July 21st, 2001, 06:00 AM

I think it is a good thing that the IOC gave the olympics to china , it gives the people of china exposure to the world - only through exposure to the world will china become a country where ideas and beliefs can ALL be openly practiced.

One thing I find really damn funny about this is the different nationalities hammering the US.. .. When you think about it - this country is made up of Europeans, Africans, Chinese, Hispanic, Arabic, etc.... hmm something to think about - and a funny thing about this - alot of these people are also now US citizens who vote... and who keep their own cultures / religous beliefs when they move to this country and vote for who they believe in. Maybe the problems in the US are a reflection of the problems throughout the world.
Every country has starving people, every country has poor, every country experiences corruption. So why should the situation in this country be any different?
IF the US decided to go back to its isolationist ways of the 30s it wouldnt be long before some nasty country started throwing it weight around and everyone would come screaming for US help.
Most Us citizens will agree that some of our foreign policies are flawed - strange how the mistakes of past cultures repeats ... you only need to look at the Last 300 years of colonial rule...that finally ended with a results like vietnam, Israel and Palistine, India and pakistan, central africa, indonesia, korea etc....

[This message has been edited by AJC (edited 21 July 2001).]

Puke

July 21st, 2001, 07:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by AJC:
.. When you think about it - this country is made up of Europeans, Africans, Chinese, Hispanic, Arabic, etc.... - alot of these people are also now US citizens who vote... and who keep their own cultures / religous beliefs when they move to this country and vote for who they believe in.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thats great and all that there are diverse cultural views. but what really hacks me off - and i will probably get flamed off the board for this - is that people tend to abuse their citizenships. I have generally kept my other Posts lighthearted, but i intend this one to be as serious as some of the other Posts that people have put on this thread.

forign nationals come here (US) from another country, leagly or not, and work hard to become a US citizen. THEN they take all the advantages the have gained from citizenship, (comparatively high income, standard of living, a political voice) and then procede to take whatever actions are in the best interest of their home country or family living abroad.

well, if someone went to all that trouble to become a US citizen, why the frick is some other place coming first in their mind? now, im not an anti-globalist, and i think that only by helping other countries will we live in a productive global economy. when our trade partners benefit, we benefit. its as simple as that. BUT, is it too much to ask for a little patriotism? Could not people put out a little more effort looking for a solution that is beneficial to the US and the world as a whole as well as their home country? do people have to bad-mouth and poo-poo the US while they leverage the advantages of citizenship to aid their families or homeland? if not patriotism, how about gratitude?

Sure, there are lots of people who come here and dont make it. either they fail to prosper, or they are relegated to 3rd class citizens. Last time I checked, we didn't go about ethnically clensing out our immigrants, so even if they end up working in the labor industry, i dont see how they can complain. if its worse than what they had, they can go back. if they cant go back and its not worth giving up, I dont see where they justify complaining about our way of life.

If someone in a forign country wants to say that the US sucks and their country is better, fine. i dont agree, but good for them. If some one goes out of their way to come here, make our system work for them, and then forks over to another country what should be reinvested here, and bad-mouths us at the same time.. ****, how would you like that to be happening in your country? I bet your laws and culture dont even allow for things like that to happen. (this rhetorical question is not directed to the person quoted above, or anyone inperticular)

The reason that the US is so great is that we have the opportunity for screwed up problems like that to occur, and while I hate that it happens, i would never change our government to disallow it.

Atrocities

July 21st, 2001, 07:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>people tend to abuse their citizenships. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could you explain this? You see, it makes no sense. Abusing their "citizenships" implies that they had to apply for it in the first place, and that being a citizen is a privilage, and not a birth right.

Just curious, thats all.

Atrocities

July 21st, 2001, 07:10 AM

Never mind. I see what your saying now. Sorry about missing the point before.

Atrocities

July 21st, 2001, 07:12 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think it is a good thing that the IOC gave the olympics to china , it gives the people of china exposure to the world - only through exposure to the world will china become a country where ideas and beliefs can ALL be openly practiced.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya, lets just hope that the Chines don't drive the tanks into the Olympic park and kill everyone their because they think they are revolting.

CaptSpoogy

July 21st, 2001, 03:08 PM

Puke:

I agree with you that people abuse their citizenships.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>well, if someone went to all that trouble to become a US citizen, why the frick is some other place coming first in their mind?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is because they simply come to the US to make MONEY as I mentioned earlier. They don't care about patriotism or freedom or voting. They want to make MONEY.

The US is a melting pot. When you immigrate to the US, they expect you to become American in almost every way. They don't really encourage multi-culturalism etc. So many of the foreigners will make lots of MONEY for some time and they move back home or to somewhere else where they can find people of their culture.

Personally, I know lots of people that I work with who spent time in the US making MONEY and after awhile, they moved to Canada to enjoy the cultural mosiac that exists here. In Canada, they're able to find more of their people's infrastructure, while it be temples, support Groups etc, so it's similiar to where they came from, but with all the benefits of a first world country.

People also come to Canada just to make MONEY as well, and when they've done so - they just move back to wherever they're from with all their savings. Taking, but not giving back to the country that gave them all their opportunities.

In happens in both places often (Canada and US), but I think most foreigners see US as the place to make the MOST MONEY - or so they tell me.

[This message has been edited by capt_spoogy (edited 21 July 2001).]

CaptSpoogy

July 21st, 2001, 03:12 PM

I thought it fitting that I should have the 100th post. And, of course, this is just a shameless post to help increase my rank sometime in the future.

------------------
Visit the Spoogy Federation at:
http://spoogyfederation.tripod.com

Marty Ward

July 21st, 2001, 06:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:

This is because they simply come to the US to make MONEY as I mentioned earlier. They don't care about patriotism or freedom or voting. They want to make MONEY.
[This message has been edited by capt_spoogy (edited 21 July 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

capt,
When you find the country that you don't need money to live in would you tell me? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Puke

July 21st, 2001, 09:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:
after awhile, they moved to Canada to enjoy the cultural mosiac that exists here. In Canada, they're able to find more of their people's infrastructure, while it be temples, support Groups etc, so it's similiar to where they came from, but with all the benefits of a first world country.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

maybe i should go spend some time in canada, but when I look around here (granted, here = coastal cities of california) I see plenty of cultural diversity. Asians are not all lumped together, different nationalities all have their own neighborhoods (sure, some people call them ghettos, but they are mainly middle class) in downtown San Francisco. San Jose supports a range of Middle-Eastern and Indian cultures, and I see temples all over the place. even in the suburban parts of the peninsula I see temples for different religions and different cultures in different neighborhoods. In LA.. well, anyone who is looking for cultural acceptance in LA should have their head examined. San Diego has much the same cultural diversity, but with Hispanics and Portugese instead of Easterners.

I dont think its that the support infrastructure is missing here, I think its an attidute difference. I suppose I would have to spend some time in Canada to really understand.

AJC

July 21st, 2001, 09:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:

The US is a melting pot. When you immigrate to the US, they expect you to become American in almost every way.
[This message has been edited by capt_spoogy (edited 21 July 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who ARE "They" ? Who is this mysterious evil entity called "they" that rules the USA? Every country that accepts immigrants expects compliance to their laws and some respect for the host countries culture. IN the US, in normal everyday life , no one tells you how to believe or what your culture should be. 250,000,000 people and alot of freedom WILL always add up to some issues. Most of those issues are overblown by the media. An average US citizen does not worry that the bus stop they are waiting at will be blown to bits, or a bomb set off at the local diner, or that they are going to be mugged walking in the park. I am an immigrant from the UK , 1966. Not once Have I ever been asked or told to change my beliefs or stop any customs my family may practice. If someone did it would violation of the Bill of rights.
Every country has dumb politicians who make very bad decisions. Look at Russia and Chechnya. China and Tibet, Israel and the occupied territories.

I think those that are on the I hate the USA kick should stop "calling the kettle black" so to speak.
The US meddles no more or less than other major world powers in world affairs, often the US is asked by the UN to intervene. Kosovo is a good example - most of Americans dont want to see our guys there, when Bush hinted that we may pull out most of us were happy to hear it but the EU screamed bloody murder. Its the politicians in other countries who are as much to blame for the worlds problems, be it war, pollution, starvation, crime. The US gets the visibility because it the big kid on the block. But dont worry all you USA haters, In a few more years china will be militarily the most powerful country. With that power will come alot of responsibility. It will be interesting to see how the Chinese handle their new found status. Tiawan will be a good test, lets just hope that if they succumb to the power - that the US sits back and lets it happen, let the rest of the world figure out what to do, wouldnt want those horrible nasty Americans interfering now...would we?

BTW - those of you who think life portrayed on the silver screen by hollywood is how life really is in the US is sadly dis-allusioned. If you think that what you watch on your countries news isnt tainted with propaganda...I am sorry to say its sad to see it worked, You really need to think and know your facts before passing judgement on others. The US is a typical western country with its good points and bad, but After seeing the US news propaganda about the rest of the worlds problems - I cant think of a place I would rather live. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

Dragonlord

July 21st, 2001, 10:23 PM

I take a somewhat different view. I too am an immigrant to the US, though I have only been here for 9 months. I have been very frustrated by the immigration laws and here, and the work culture which is *very* different from Europe. I came seeking the American Dream (which maybe 5% of the population actually obtains) and being frustrated every step of the way. America is a very opportunistic, cold-hearted money-driven country.
(of course I may be somewhat prejudiced since I recently fell victim to the rounds of lay-offs in the IT industry, which is why I play SEIV all day).

As a model for government, I think the socialism of western Europe is best, though that has problems of its own.

Alpha Kodiak

July 22nd, 2001, 12:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dragonlord:
I take a somewhat different view. I too am an immigrant to the US, though I have only been here for 9 months. I have been very frustrated by the immigration laws and here, and the work culture which is *very* different from Europe. I came seeking the American Dream (which maybe 5% of the population actually obtains) and being frustrated every step of the way. America is a very opportunistic, cold-hearted money-driven country.
(of course I may be somewhat prejudiced since I recently fell victim to the rounds of lay-offs in the IT industry, which is why I play SEIV all day).

As a model for government, I think the socialism of western Europe is best, though that has problems of its own.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry to here that you are having problems, but I have to ask you what you think the American Dream is if only 5% attain it. If it is wealth beyond your wildest dreams, then you are right, few attain it. If it is a comfortable life with freedom to live and be what you want, I believe that the percentage is dramatically higher.

A friend of mine is from China. He also fought with the INS to get his permanent residency status. For some reason, the past few years have been worse than previous times, and have actually brought about a Congressional investigation into the INS, as I understand it. He stuck with it, though and is happy to be living here.

While the current INS bureaucracy may be incompetent, that should not be an indictment against the US as a whole.

I can definitely relate to the frustration about lay-offs. I have been laid-off in the past, and I just survived a lay-off in the company I am working for now. The IT industry is extremely vulnerable to market down-turns. Many of the companies are small and do not have much in cash reserves. At the same time, research and development costs are high and take time before they start returning on the investment. When sales slow down the companies have two choices, let people go, or get to the point that they can't pay the people they have.

None of that is particularly consoling when you have lost your job. The only positive I can relate is that 3 of the 5 programmers we lost are working elsewhere after a few weeks. I have not had contact with the other 2, so I do not know how they are doing. Depending on where you are, and what your skills are, there is work to be had, but it can be tricky to find.

CaptSpoogy

July 22nd, 2001, 01:05 AM

The INS (as I mentioned before: The worst bureaucracy in the western world) is designed to keep people out of the US...

I spent nearly a year of time just trying to get the proper documents to work legally while I was staying with my fiance in the US...it never happened. I went through so much crap and every INS officer seemed to give me a different answer to my questions. One day I traveled to the INS office in Seattle and was suprised to find it heavily guarded (don't bother bringing your nail file or any other shrap object) as if it was a military base. They offer no help and treat you like trash. It was a horrible experience.

Fortunately, my wife and I decided to move to my home in Toronto and within two months of submitting her papers - boom - she had a job and free health care.

I enjoyed living in the US (especially the Northwest) - but I really hated the way the government was set up. They never get anything done, ever. And, it's too easy for special interest Groups to influence the government (NRA, Christian Right etc)...

Quikngruvn

July 22nd, 2001, 01:06 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by AJC:
I think it is a good thing that the IOC gave the olympics to china , it gives the people of china exposure to the world... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And it will give the rest of the world a chance to see a part of China they may not see otherwise, mainly her people, her culture, and her history.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Atrocities:
Ya, lets just hope that the Chines don't drive the tanks into the Olympic park and kill everyone their because they think they are revolting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not with the TV cameras of the whole world watching. As has been mentioned before, the Chinese are not stupid.

Quikngruvn

------------------
"That which does not kill you will make you stronger." -- Nietzsche

Phoenix-D

July 22nd, 2001, 01:19 AM

"And, it's too easy for special interest Groups to influence the government (NRA, Christian Right etc)..."

I would have to wonder how you propose to fix that.

The obvious answer to that sort of thing, really, is more influence.. in the other direction.

Phoenix-D

Noble713

July 22nd, 2001, 02:09 AM

This might be slightly off-topic. But:

If I was considering emigrating to another country, where Online would a look for things like:

-government system (like does the Congress have 2 Houses or one)
-basic laws and freedoms, such as firearms ownership
-things that the government provides for you (health care, education)
-statistics (average income, culture/language breakdown, etc.)

Is there any one (or few) sites that have all of the above for the world's major nations?

Phoenix-D

July 22nd, 2001, 02:16 AM

Hah! Off-topic squared!

Phoenix-D

CaptSpoogy

July 22nd, 2001, 02:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I would have to wonder how you propose to fix that.

The obvious answer to that sort of thing, really, is more influence.. in the other direction.

Phoenix-D<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One way you could eliminate it is to change the way politicians are funded. So that special interest Groups (like Oil, Big Tobacco, NRA, etc) could buy off support...

Phoenix-D

July 22nd, 2001, 02:43 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:
One way you could eliminate it is to change the way politicians are funded. So that special interest Groups (like Oil, Big Tobacco, NRA, etc) could buy off support...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Every single attempt to do that so far has had the result of creating masses of rules (so you need a laywer and MORE money), limiting free expresion, and gennerally making the "interest Groups" with money more powerful.

Phoenix-D

Marty Ward

July 22nd, 2001, 04:14 AM

Capt,
If you think the INS is bad try going the other way.

I had to do some work in Canada. Very simple warranty repair of a pump. 4 days, 5 forms and $250.00 later I was able to reach the job site in Edmonton. Cost my Canadian customer a few hundred thousand dollars. They certainly went through great lengths to be sure that some Canadian worker wasn't put out of work by me, even though the work was warranty. They even charged me for bringing my hand tools in. Amazing bureaucracy up there too.

You don't think the government is a special interest too?

Dragonlord

July 22nd, 2001, 06:39 AM

Wow, this thread is really moving fast. I just wanted to respond to Alpha Kodiak's response to my initial post here.

Things I like about living in the US: the standard of living, good consumer products, all my favorite games/books/movies come from here, less government restrictions on what you can/can't do than in Europe. It's a great place to live IF you have money.

What I dislike (or even hate) about the USA:
It's a ****ty place to live if you don't have money. That's true for most of the world, but more so in capitalistic countries.
I dislike the lack of gun-control. I dislike the litigation attitude, and how everybody is scared ****less of lawyers and always covering their asses. I am sad about how little the average american knows about the world outside his country or even his state.
I'm saddened by the overall lower level of education compared to, say, the Netherlands. I hate the immigration laws, and the opportunistic use of foreign talent.
Let me expand a bit on that, since that's what we were originally talking about.

Two years ago during the economic boom, hundreds of thousands of IT workers were brought to the US, most on H1-B visas. The INS calls them non-immigrant aliens.
I'm one of them. Here's how ****ty we are treated:

1) No matter how good your credit history in your own country, it doesn't count here. You start from scratch. Forget about buying a car or a house in the first two years or so that you're here.
2) Employment wise, up until a recent law-relaxation, we were like indentured servants. You're stuck with the company who sponsored you, if you loose your job for whatever reason they can legally deport you the next day. Non-H1-b visa holders (e.g L1 like myself) are still in this situation, the H1-B portability clause does not apply.
2b) Just like American employees, we get no job security whatsoever. If a manager has a bad hairday, PMS, whatever, they can fire you on the spot and there is nothing you can do. However unlike Americans, we do not get the "flip side of the coin" in that you can get a new job within days. We must find an employer who is willing to sponsor a visa all over again (which takes at least 3 months) and absorb the cost of being unemployed ourselves. With the way the economoy is right now, no matter how good your credentials are, no employer will expend that much effort to hire you. Easier to get an American.
3) So what do you do if you get laid off? Being European, I figured I could turn to the government for help, while I look for work. After all, I have been paying taxes, paying for Social Security, Medicare, Unemployment insurance, etc. So I try to claim for unemployment benefits. Hey, its only $400 a week but it helps pay the rent.
What does the Department of Labor tell me? You have no green card. Thus you have no rights, and can forget your benefits. Even though we make you participate in mandatory schemes (e.g. Social security) from which you can legally never reap any benefits.
Thank you for paying for the pension of our elderly folks though.
(by the way I am currently appealing this matter up to the highest State levels.)
4) Until you get a green card (takes 6-7 years) forget about planning a life. Forget about marriage, kids, buying a house, etc. Too risky, you could loose it all on any given day and be forced to return to your home country, on your own costs, and try to survive there.

I'm sorry if I sound bitter, but those are the cold hard facts from a Dutchman's point of view.

Now, back to SEIV to take my mind off things :-)

Alpha Kodiak

July 22nd, 2001, 10:41 AM

Dragonlord:

For what it's worth (and based on both your description and my friend's), I agree that the current immigration laws concerning "non-immigrant workers" such as yourself need to be fixed. The trouble is that most people born here have no contact with the immigration system and don't know how ridiculous the system is, or worse, don't care. If I hadn't been exposed to it through the ordeal of my friend, I wouldn't have known anything about it.

While I have defended the U.S. in a number of areas, you have a legitimate complaint. One of the things I get frustrated about by our government (trust me, there are others) is that we fight against illegal immigration, but then we make legal immigration difficult. It would seem to me to be more efficient to make it easier to immigrate legally, and use the savings in reduced efforts at rounding up illegals to generate more jobs for those who enter the country legally.

Atrocities

July 22nd, 2001, 10:48 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>the Chinese are not stupid.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed they are not, however, when the TV cameras are gone................. How many will pay once the spot light has been turned off?

July 22nd, 2001, 02:05 PM

Atrocities, check out my two Posts near the beginning of this thread.

CaptSpoogy

July 22nd, 2001, 06:38 PM

Dragonlord - try Canada. There always looking for skilled IT workers and it's a lot easier to immigrate here...

------------------
Visit the Spoogy Federation at:
http://spoogyfederation.tripod.com

Quikngruvn

July 22nd, 2001, 08:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:
Dragonlord - try Canada. There always looking for skilled IT workers and it's a lot easier to immigrate here...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd consider that myself it weren't so fricking cold!

Quikngruvn, who has never experienced more than six inches of snow at one time

Puke

July 23rd, 2001, 01:03 AM

the thing that i dislike the most about the US (not that i dislike the US, but i figured i would chip in for the other side of the argument.. only fair.) is that people dont like the police. the average citizen is trained to distrust and be afraid of the police. its a huge cultural problem, and part of the problem is with the civilians and part is with the police.

I think that the whole anti-authority mindset is what leads to all the youth-violence we have in the States. Other countries that have more open attitudes where someone can ask a friendly question to an officer on a street corner dont seem to have the rampant problems with inner city gangs and school violence that we have.

Dragonlord

July 23rd, 2001, 02:41 AM

Spoogy, I actually spoke to a recruiter in Toronto Last week, they had an interesting open position. But when they heard I was not a US citizen (let alone Canadian) they said it would be too difficult paperwork-wise. They also said that getting a work visa in Canada is equally hard as in the US...unless you're American. Odd, they almost made it sound as if they were a northern province of the US rather than a country in its own right.

ZeroAdunn

July 23rd, 2001, 06:36 AM

Speaking as an American (one who is born in america is of course an american, just like someone who is born on mars is a martian, so don't try and say I am not an american.) I find some of these comments rather insulting.

To adress one comment earlier, why shuold we care about humans rights and civil liberties in some country half way around the world, well, becuase they are PEOPLE. You should care about the world around you, and the people most of all because they are your kin, maybe not directly but we are all one people, and to only care about oneself is selfish.

And another thing, if we weren't going to care about those around us, why the hell should we care about the government. And not all americans drive SUV's and spray arasole cans into the air for fun. I for one ride a bike most of the time, and encourage those around me to do it as well. And we are taking steps (maybe small ones but you have to start somewehere) to decrease pollution, recycling is up, incinerators are steadily going the way of the dinosaur and mass transit is being pushed more and more.

As for the biggest problem in our country, it's not regulating american run industry in foriegn nations, this causes major explotation problems and causes many american industries to move out of the country.

As for our election system, it's fine, the problem is big buiseness and interest Groups are exploiting it with money. A situation easily fixed if it wasn't for the fact that it benefited the politicians, who are the ones who would fix it.

Which brings me to another point, there aren't supposed to be politicians in america, it was originially set up so that being a politician would be something you just did, not a job.

Another thing, about Lucanos' comment about america being a dictatorship, it is not. It is more like neocolonialism, only in this case the government is merely a puppet to itself and corporate america. And one more thing Lucanos, propaganda is propaganda, you can't take it worth ****, it is skewed, if you want the facts you must look deeper.

Maybe native american's were here first, maybe my ancestors did take their land, maybe it was wrong, here slit my rists, lord knows that it's only right that I should pay for the sins of my ancestors. I'm sure your ancestors never did anything wrong!

As for poverty, of course there is poverty in our country, there is poverty in every country.

Not that I am saying america is superior, no nation is superior. Perosnally do not believe in government, or organized religion for that mater (organized religion is just another attempt at government but claiming it is gods will.)

Oh yes and a comment earlier, something about this day and age countries should moving towards democracy? What the hell? Whoever said democracy is the ultimate form of government? In reality communism is, that is true communism, where there is no real government and everyone gives of themselves to benefit their neighbor. And don't give me any crap abou thats not communism, cause that is communism as it was originally intended, countries today that claim to be communist are generally more facist or socialist than true communist.

Please don't generalize your statements, I don't look down on anyone that I don't know, (of course upon meeting people a realise they are idiots and proceed to look down on them) And to those who believe we need government or organized religion, they are wrong, china opporated mostly without organized religion and government for a long time. It wouldn't have been a nice place to live, and then along came religion and look where china is now. Seriously, look it up.

It seems as a lot of people here have a 'holier than thou' attitude. No person is perfect, no government is perfect, but mostly no person is perfect..... dagnabbit.

- just another long rant from Zero.

ZeroAdunn

July 23rd, 2001, 06:36 AM

Sorry, double post, oh ya, one more thing:

Come on people now, smile on your brother everybody get together gotta love one another right now.

[This message has been edited by ZeroAdunn (edited 23 July 2001).]

Phoenix-D

July 23rd, 2001, 06:59 AM

FYI you can delete Posts. Same screen as the edit button.

Anyway- communism as a perfect government: perfect governments have to work. Communism..doesn't. Human nature, really.

Phoenix-D

July 23rd, 2001, 09:38 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Anyway- communism as a perfect government: perfect governments have to work. Communism..doesn't. Human nature, really.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quite true. Communism is just like the idealised calculations in physics and chemistry... great for theoretical studies but doesn't really work out in real life. I guess Marx forgot that humans are humans afterall.

[This message has been edited by CW (edited 23 July 2001).]

parwez

July 23rd, 2001, 12:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Every single attempt to do that so far has had the result of creating masses of rules (so you need a laywer and MORE money), limiting free expresion, and gennerally making the "interest Groups" with money more powerful.

Phoenix-D

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually all you need is a law that says senators can't serve more than one term in their life. That will stop it being a career option, force big businesses to spread there money futher.

or better yet treat it like jury service.
(possibility for insider dealing exists here)

CaptSpoogy

July 23rd, 2001, 03:25 PM

Dragonlord - They make it easy for you if you're American coming here. But if you're from the UK, it should be pretty easy as well...

capnq

July 23rd, 2001, 04:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>china opporated mostly without organized religion and government for a long time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>China has had some form of centralized government since the Shang Dynasty in 1600 BC. No culture on Earth has ever advanced beyond clan-based tribalism without some form of government.

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

dmm

July 23rd, 2001, 07:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"The love of money is the root of all evil." --Lord Acton (I remember that one!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, it predates Lord Acton by a couple of years. "For the love of money is the root of all evil..."--St. Paul, First Epistle to Timothy
[/QUOTE]

Actually, the first quote IS from Lord Acton, who was misquoting Paul. The "corrected" quote is also a misquote. The correct quote, in context, is
"People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves through with many griefs."
Note that the problem is not money, or even riches, but greed, coveting, and pride. Paul then proceeds to give apostolic commands for Timothy to pass along to the wealthy:
"Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share."

That is "Christian communalism": From each, willingly, as an act of love and mercy (and also to gain eternal rewards -- God knows human nature!), according to how God has blessed; To each, according to his/her need (not want), as determined by individuals or by a local fellowship of people who know and love him/her and want the long-term best for him/her.

In practice, this is not an easy thing to achieve. Liberals err by trying to force everyone to "be nice" to everyone, regardless of circumstances or merit. Conservatives err by assuming that people will automatically "be nice" if only the government will stay out of it.

P.S. Regarding China and the Olympics: No one seems to remember that Moscow was awarded the Olympics during the Cold War, and the U.S. would have gone if it had not been for the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. I wonder if the Afghanis took comfort from that while they were being sprayed with nerve gas from helicopters? Or do you suppose that maybe the CIA-supplied Stingers they got later on were more of a comfort?

dmm

July 23rd, 2001, 07:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Quikngruvn:

Religious fanatics? I haven't heard of any of the hundreds of religious denominations in the US declaring a jihad (a Holy War) on anyone or anybody. With the possible exception of Southern Baptists, who tried to boycott Disney because they offered the same corporate benefits to same-sex couples as to married couples. (These are the same people who, in a Sunday sermon, told the congregation my stepdaughter attended that if they watched the Super Bowl on Sunday, they'd go to Hell.) The rest of us laugh at the Southern Baptists. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Regarding the Disney boycott: Disney portrays itself as upright and "family-friendly." The boycott was intended to draw attention to various immoral practices by Disney, including but not limited to: increasing participation in the "gay agenda" including gay pride parades down Main Street in Disneyworld, movies by Disney-owned companies that were R-rated without having some redeeming social reason for being that way (unlike, for example, Schindler's List), increasing hostility to religion and increasing sexual content in movies intended for children. I could go on, but my point is that Quikngruvn is oversimplifying and misrepresenting the Southern Baptist position.

Regarding the Sunday sermon: My guess is that the preacher said something like "it's a sin to skip church in favor of the Super Bowl."

[This message has been edited by dmm (edited 23 July 2001).]

Baron Munchausen

July 23rd, 2001, 08:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dmm:
[b] Actually, the first quote IS from Lord Acton, who was misquoting Paul. The "corrected" quote is also a misquote. The correct quote, in context, is
"People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves through with many griefs."
Note that the problem is not money, or even riches, but greed, coveting, and pride. Paul then proceeds to give apostolic commands for Timothy to pass along to the wealthy:
"Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share."

That is "Christian communalism": From each, willingly, as an act of love and mercy (and also to gain eternal rewards -- God knows human nature!), according to how God has blessed; To each, according to his/her need (not want), as determined by individuals or by a local fellowship of people who know and love him/her and want the long-term best for him/her.

In practice, this is not an easy thing to achieve. Liberals err by trying to force everyone to "be nice" to everyone, regardless of circumstances or merit. Conservatives err by assuming that people will automatically "be nice" if only the government will stay out of it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, yep! The long-haired hippie guy they talk about in the gospels was a flaming communist! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif It's a clear sign of how far many of the so-called 'Christians' of our time have traveled from the roots of their religion that you will find as many "religious" movements allied with the business community in trying to make the country safe for profit as there are charity organizations trying to help the poor.

Krsqk

July 23rd, 2001, 10:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Actually, the first quote IS from Lord Acton, who was misquoting Paul. The "corrected" quote is also a misquote. The correct quote, in context, is...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, not incorrect; just from a different Version and without the context. As for the interpretation, agreed. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Yep, yep! The long-haired hippie guy they talk about in the gospels was a flaming communist! It's a clear sign of how far many of the so-called 'Christians' of our time have traveled from the roots of their religion that you will find as many "religious" movements allied with the business community in trying to make the country safe for profit as there are charity organizations trying to help the poor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The "long-haired hippie" stereotype is derived from religious art of a period much later than Christ's life, especially medieval/Renaissance art. Long(er) hair, if anything, was just as culturally normal for men of the day as wearing high heels and hose was normal for the court of Louis XIV. Does that mean, then, that Louis XIV was either a) a woman, or b) a transvestite? He was neither; he was manly in his culture. Hippies were culturally rebellious because they participated in a style culturally associated with women. Don't try to place first-century culture in a modern setting--there is no comparison.

RE: Communism--see above comments, as well as dmm's excellent commentary.

RE: Increased religious/political involvement--Granted, much of "Christianity" has become more involved in social issues than in the "roots" they've left. But then, would you say that a Christian is someone who claims to follow Christ, or someone who actually does? Mainstream Christianity has less in common with Bible teaching than it does with modern culture; but does that condemn the "real thing"? Does the existance of counterfeit bills prove the inefficacy of genuine currency? Just food for thought.

Oh, and Baron, congratulations on your promotion. Not as far to go as you thought, was it? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

------------------
"The Unpronounceable" Krsqk
Basic Tech Mod
--Basic Tech Mod v.75 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbuploads/Krsqk/BasicTechv.75.txt)

Alpha Kodiak

July 23rd, 2001, 10:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dmm:
[b]
"Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share."

That is "Christian communalism": From each, willingly, as an act of love and mercy (and also to gain eternal rewards -- God knows human nature!), according to how God has blessed; To each, according to his/her need (not want), as determined by individuals or by a local fellowship of people who know and love him/her and want the long-term best for him/her.

In practice, this is not an easy thing to achieve. Liberals err by trying to force everyone to "be nice" to everyone, regardless of circumstances or merit. Conservatives err by assuming that people will automatically "be nice" if only the government will stay out of it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only reason that "Christian communalism" can work is given in the exortation to "put their hope in God". A person can only truly give up there own self-interests when they know that their needs will be unfailingly met by the power of God.

In this is the greatest misunderstanding about Chritianity, both from the inside and the outside. Christianity is not a set of moral rules or a way to achieve enlightenment to make one group of people superior to another (though I have seen attempts to use it that way.) It is also not a get-rich-quick scheme, though there are those who attempt to use it that way, as well.

Christianity is a relationship with Jesus Christ. Those who follow Him should exhibit certain behavior traits as a positive reaction to what He has done, not in an attempt to win favor with God or others. That is why attempting to legislate "Christian" behavior fails. Without the relationship with Christ, there is no motivation to behave in a "Christian" manner.

Baron Munchausen

July 24th, 2001, 02:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Krsqk:
The "long-haired hippie" stereotype is derived from religious art of a period much later than Christ's life, especially medieval/Renaissance art. Long(er) hair, if anything, was just as culturally normal for men of the day as wearing high heels and hose was normal for the court of Louis XIV. Does that mean, then, that Louis XIV was either a) a woman, or b) a transvestite? He was neither; he was manly in his culture. Hippies were culturally rebellious because they participated in a style culturally associated with women. Don't try to place first-century culture in a modern setting--there is no comparison.

RE: Increased religious/political involvement--Granted, much of "Christianity" has become more involved in social issues than in the "roots" they've left. But then, would you say that a Christian is someone who claims to follow Christ, or someone who actually does? Mainstream Christianity has less in common with Bible teaching than it does with modern culture; but does that condemn the "real thing"? Does the existance of counterfeit bills prove the inefficacy of genuine currency? Just food for thought.

Oh, and Baron, congratulations on your promotion. Not as far to go as you thought, was it? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I was intentionally referring to the very large cultural gap between the originator and the self-described 'followers' of the religion today called "Christianity". Yes, it has far more to do with Medieval, Renaissance, and Modern European culture than anything Mediterranean or (especially) specifically Biblical/Jewish. Even in that context, though, Christ was a bit non-conformist. So the 'hippie' designation is not really incorrect. Call it double-irony. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

And, yeah, what a surprise to discover the rank of General and reach it in the same day...

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 24 July 2001).]

AJC

July 24th, 2001, 02:31 AM

Many an atheist behave along the definition of what I assume is meant by "A Christian manner", without believing in creationism.

Christian beliefs have been defining the western worlds laws and social attitudes for centuries. I dont think One needs a relationship with christ to understand right and wrong and most people are motivated to act according to what is defined by society as moral behavior, not because of the fear of god, but because that is what is defined by our society as correct and obey the law.

In my view most of society is law abiding and treats each other well. Its the few dimwits who are troubling the rest of society. Those few idiots out of 250,000,000 in the US justifies the media telling us and the rest of the world how evil American society is. Its all propaganda and done for the sensationalism, the media practically falls over itself generating hype everytime something happens. 1 or 2 guys shooting up the streets in LA can occuppy the news for 2 days, WHY? because Happy stories dont generate $$$ and certainly dont bring in the audience. People have a facination for disasters and tragic events, its human nature, and the media is capitalizing on it.

If the US was so out of wack and in so much trouble - there would be another revolution brewing in this country, because Americans are a pretty militant bunch. So I think that you will find that most americans are content, so obviously things are as bad here as they are painted out to be.

Another thing to consider - is the world really anymore violent than in the Last 2000 yrs past? Probably not - I think it is the medium for which reporting the news stories is allowing us an instantanious microscopic view of the same social issues that have been with us since the beginning of the human race and most of us dont like what we see.

Quikngruvn

July 24th, 2001, 09:37 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dmm:
I could go on, but my point is that Quikngruvn is oversimplifying and misrepresenting the Southern Baptist position.

Regarding the Sunday sermon: My guess is that the preacher said something like "it's a sin to skip church in favor of the Super Bowl."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oversimplified and misrepresented, perhaps. My point was that although there are some sects in the US that take their religious zeal to seemingly extreme positions (to outsiders, anyway), most Americans are not religious fanatics. I chose the Southern Baptists because (a) I know a bunch of Southern Baptists (and I went to a Southern Baptist university), and their actions often contradict their professed beliefs (but not all of them do!), and (b) as a sect, their credo is so conservative that they're a relatively easy target from the religious middle ground.

As for the Super Bowl remark, no, the pastor said they would go to Hell. The sermon was given on the morning of Super Bowl Sunday.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by AJC:
Many an atheist behave along the definition of what I assume is meant by "A Christian manner", without believing in creationism.

Christian beliefs have been defining the western worlds laws and social attitudes for centuries. I dont think One needs a relationship with christ to understand right and wrong and most people are motivated to act according to what is defined by society as moral behavior, not because of the fear of god, but because that is what is defined by our society as correct and obey the law.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, Jesus of Nazareth: prophet, revolutionary, and all around great guy. Personally, I believe in Jesus' teachings and try to act on his teachings in my life (though my human nature gets in the way). Am I a Christian? No, for the simple fact that I do not believe Jesus was the "Son of God" any more than the rest of us are sons and daughters of God. I believe man deified Jesus later, decades or centuries after his crucifixion. Does this make Christians' beliefs any less valid? No. But, I think I am more "Christian" than some who claim to be Christians, but act in markedly un-Christian ways.

Or, put more succintly, I gotta agree with AJC.

Ya know, my momma always told me never to discuss religion or politics in mixed company. Now I see why!

Quikngruvn, back in his asbestos flak suit

Quikngruvn

July 24th, 2001, 03:56 PM

After a short night's sleep and some rethinking, I've realized the error of my ways. Not so much oversimplification or misrepresentation of the Southern Baptists (though valid assertions), but overgeneralization. I took the actions of individuals (like the Southern Baptist who told my Catholic friend he was going to Hell for being Catholic) and individual actions of the sect (like the Disney boycott) and applied them to the sect as a whole, without really knowing the motives and beliefs of the sect and its members. Kinda like if I had said that all Canadians are nothing more than beer-swilling hockey goons, which obviously they aren't ("all I ever needed to know about Canada I learned from 'Strange Brew'").

So, I've learned three things:
A) Don't go about bashing a group of people until I understand where they're coming from;
2) Think before I post; and
�) No more posting at 4 am!

Quikngruvn, off to make an omelet with the egg on his face

Alpha Kodiak

July 24th, 2001, 04:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Quikngruvn:
But, I think I am more "Christian" than some who claim to be Christians, but act in markedly un-Christian ways.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We do not disagree on this. Actually, my statement about legislating "Christian" behavior was not directed at those who do not claim Christianity. I do not deny that there are people who behave in a very moral way, yet do not believe the tenets of Christianity. Rather, it is pointing out that it is futile to try to force a particular set of values (based upon a particular belief system) on people who do not follow that belief system.

This is not to say that a Christian cannot take a political stand on issues that face society: capital punishment (there are Christians on both sides on this one), pornography, abortion and many others. It just means that we have to debate the issues on their own merits, not whack people over the head with our Bibles and think that is going to convince them.

No, I am not trying to start a debate on any of those issues http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif. I am just trying to clarify how I believe that Christians need to interrelate with the rest of society. Part of the problem with my previous post is that I also post to a couple of forums on Christianity, and I lost track of who my audience was in this one.