OT A question regarding a culture I'm working on

[Starhawk]

Hey ya'll long time no post, well some of you may remember me and my story "From the Beginning" a while back others might not.

Well here I have a few questions for ya'll.

Well the main protagonist nation is Icara, an Empire that we would consider neo-feudal/fascist in make up.

The Empire is ruled for the most part by a man called the Praetor who is nearly absolute ruler of the Empire, directly under him are the High Lords (made up of 6 members) under them is Council made up of the Nobility (only some of these positions can be apointed by the Praetor, the rest are selected by the other nobility and only a handful of even those positions are heredetary).

The Praetor apoints the High Lords, and controls the state's general direction regarding peace/war/religion and can make demands upon the High Lords and council if it is for the good of the Empire. He is the only one who can authorize the deployment of his Personal Guard (a force of 10,000 elite soldiers including armored regiments and airborn forces, and later a warfleet of 100 ships of the line).

The High Lords: These men and women control overall decisions regarding military action, tax rates and draft rate (yes the Empire has an ongoing draft) throughout the Empire (I.E they can say that your tax can be NO MORE then X amount and your draft rate can not exceed X amount, or the reverse they can raise the overall bar of tax and draft throughout the Empire)

The Council: They make most of the "civil level" decisions, each Count/Countess rules a single world, and each Duke/Duchess a single star system in which they can set they are virtually absolute rulers as long as their rule does not violate the dictates of the Praetor and High Lords.


Ethnicity: The Icaran "race" is actually made up of three seperate "races" by modern standards, Caucasians, Asians, and those of blended race all are considered "Icaran" by the law and tradition.

Language: The Icaran Language is a mix of European and Asiatic languages that all sort of blended together over millenia of intermingling.

Religion: The Empire does NOT believe in freedom of religion per se, the High Lords and State Church dictate what faiths are legal within the Empire, currently the two legal faiths (original to the Empire) are:

The Path (state religion): A complex monotheistic faith that has both eastern and western philosophy and is taught in school and throughout Icaran life. It can draw some roots to Christinaity however much of it would be equally alien to Christians.

It teaches discipline of mind and body, loyalty to community and state and preaches all souls go to hell for cleansing and that one can speed their journey through hell by service and loyalty to community and Empire.

Unlike Christianity sex is not taboo, nor is premarital sex only loveless and casual sex is taboo.

The human body is considered a temple and a symbol of God's work which creates an odd casualness about nudity within Icaran society that would throw the Puritanical Christians of past millenia.

Neo-Buddism: Although the Icarans consider themselves a single people many of those descended from the Asiatic populace still follow the tenants of Buddism with some slight changes over the millenia


Every day life: From their earliest years an Icaran child is taught loyalty to family, community and Empire. They are taught that a life lost in service to the Empire is never a life wasted, and a life spent in service to the community is a life to be cherished.
As a child goes threw school they are placed in "cadres" which is a group of children that will spend their entire school life together in the same classes and in the same community and barracks (three months of every year sees children living at school in Barracks)

Icarans are taught that their bodies are temple's, work's of art to glorify their creator and so in school Icaran children undergo a LOT of physical training (think bootcamp for 10 YEARS) including martial arts, general PE and dance (dance is a symbol of education and culture). This physical work ethic continues throughout an Icaran's life unless illness or age no longer allow it, a fat Icaran who is not ill or incapable of exercise is doomed to ridicule and scorn throughout their life.

Icaran schools also raise children with full knowledge of sexuality and anatomy but also teach restraint and temperance (partly out of religious disaproval of promiscuity and partly out of prudence to prevent STDs and pregnancies that a family can't support).

Icarans are considered adult at the age of 13 and are given three years 'grace' in which they can further their education if they choose, or simply live a bit of a relaxed life (within culturally acceptable bounds), they are encouraged to remain with their family but not required to do so by law. At the age of 16 they are required by tradition and law to get a job or return to academy (think college/OCS put together) if they do not return to Academy and do not find a job the state finds a job for them (basically you might end up with anything from sewage disposal to fast food restaurant or you might be called to service in the military).

Although most Icarans do not serve in the armed forces such service is considered one of the highest callings in the Empire and every Icaran shows respect to a soldier in uniform no matter that soldier's age or gender. Anyone enlisting in or called into Military service must serve no less then 25 years in uniform unless otherwise discharged by the service (this only happens dishonorably or if you are injured beyond capability of even a desk job which is listed as an honorable discharge) and those who are dishonorably discharge often face worse fates outside of the service.

(space era): With the discovery of a process named "sustain" Icaran lifespans were increased to roughly 300 years average (some live up to 420) with the interesting and unintended byproduct of second and third generation children being born with increased strenght reflexes and senses.
Adding to the already physically demanding Icaran society and you end up with the average Icaran being twice as fast and almost twice as strong as a modern human, with FAR better vision, hearing and smell then current humans.


Now here are the questions for yah:

1: Being that the Icarans are primarily white/asian/mixed race what do you think their cultural reaction would be if they came across say a black or hispanic person?
The reason I ask is because my first thought was that they would doubt said person was even human until extensive genetic testing proved otherwise.

2: Do you think a culture with the kind of physical regime that the Icarans have would accept a culture that does not have that kind of requirement on it's people?

3: How do you think the Icarans would handle say modern Christianity or modern atheism?
3a: How do you think modern Christians would respond to Icarans (try not to be offensive, and if you can't be unoffensive feel free not to answer)
3b:How do you think modern Atheists would respond to an Icaran?

4: What do you think the Icarans would think of a free and democratic society?
The reason I ask this one especially is because I think they would see it as weak and chaotic but I wanted to know what you think the level inate hostility would be.

5: Would you see the Empire as evil?
I ask this because with the prototype of this society I created for a series of short stories readers have said everything from
"They're a little racist and VERY harsh" to "They're a bunch of uncompromising expansionistic bastards who border on Nazi level brutality".

6: Not from a 'god bashing" point of view please (and if you can't answer without a God bashing remark then just don't answer) how do you think the faith of the Empire would shape it
(I have an idea but I don't want to seem like i'm throwing out a 2 dimensional stereotype so I'd like some other people's honest assessments)

7: Do you think an average Icaran would be happy?
I ask this because again with the prototype of this society I made for short stories I had it that the average Icaran was very happy given that crime was a rare thing and that they were practically born with a sense of purpose and community instilled in them by their society. And that societies assimilated by the Empire eventually blended and became content and loyal members of the Empire (after say 2 generations).

I look forward to your input because I am striving to create a society that is very REAL and alive, and not some 2d stereotypical society.

[Will]

Hmmm, I have the text of your story saved somewhere. I skimmed the first few parts and saved it because it seemed like it could be interesting, but I never did get around to it. Might have to dig it up, now that I'm not swamped with school and/or work constantly.

Anyway, some quick thoughts on your questions:


1: Being that the Icarans are primarily white/asian/mixed race what do you think their cultural reaction would be if they came across say a black or hispanic person?


I assume then that you are not including much of South Asia in with Asians. Indians, Burmese, Thai, Vietnamese, Cambodian, Laotian, Indonesian... all can be quite dark-skinned. I'm not sure that the assumption that individuals with darker skin would be considered a separate species would hold. I would imagine that they would be considered inferior and/or evil.


2: Do you think a culture with the kind of physical regime that the Icarans have would accept a culture that does not have that kind of requirement on it's people?


Probably not, at least not accept as equals. Tolerated, sure, but there will not be much respect there unless the other culture is in some other way superior (i.e. a culture of savants) to Icaran.


3: How do you think the Icarans would handle say modern Christianity or modern atheism?
3a: How do you think modern Christians would respond to Icarans (try not to be offensive, and if you can't be unoffensive feel free not to answer)
3b:How do you think modern Atheists would respond to an Icaran?


Depending on the fervor of religious adherence, I would guess Christianity would be considered actively hostile (as with the modern situation with the largely Christian West and the largely Muslim developing world). Atheism would probably be considered a minor annoyance or a benign perversion. The feelings would probably be mutual for modern Christianity and Icaran state religion. Less devout populations could probably co-exist without much conflict, but any real or perceived imbalance on either side could cause an eruption of hostilities. As for modern Atheists... I can't imagine that they would care about the religious practices of Icarans. They don't make all that much of a fuss now unless they're being targeted in some way.


4: What do you think the Icarans would think of a free and democratic society?


Probably what we think of a society like China's. "It'll never last, we're so much better, etc." ad nauseum.


5: Would you see the Empire as evil?


Evil? No. I wouldn't want to live under it, but if I grew up in it, I most likely wouldn't mind. It is vaguely reminiscent of Hobbes' Leviathan.


6: Not from a 'god bashing" point of view please (and if you can't answer without a God bashing remark then just don't answer) how do you think the faith of the Empire would shape it


I think you already covered most of it. Since presumably it's a mixture of Christianity and Buddhism, I couldn't imagine that there would be much of the anthropomorphized "personal God" beliefs of today, so "prayer" would most likely be replaced with "meditation". Can't think of any other major influences though.


7: Do you think an average Icaran would be happy?


Probably. Just the same as the average American.

[dogscoff]

Without addressing your points individually, but in answer to most of them:

It seems to me that the religion of your society is so tightly wrapped up with and controlled by the dictatorship that the average person within the society would have great difficulty distinguishing the two: Therefore something that attacks the State is also attacking God. Likewise, anything they regard as an affront to their deity would therefore be a threat to the State. This could very easily escalate into a "all that is not like us must be converted or eradicated" mentality. An atheist, for an example, would offend God by refusing to acknowledge his existence. By offending God he offends all Icarans, and would probably not be a popular person.

That's the danger of mixing politics and religion, which (imnsho) is where a lot of today's conflicts come from.

Of course, none of this means you shouldn't make your protagonists like that, it's just something to consider when writing them.

[Starhawk]

Wow I'm getting some good responses from you guys thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Okay so I do want an actual discussion here not just a one way chat so if it's alright with you I'll actually respond to your replies with more questions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


I assume then that you are not including much of South Asia in with Asians. Indians, Burmese, Thai, Vietnamese, Cambodian, Laotian, Indonesian... all can be quite dark-skinned. I'm not sure that the assumption that individuals with darker skin would be considered a separate species would hold. I would imagine that they would be considered inferior and/or evil.




I guess this isn't a major spoiler as it will happen in the Prelude but most of Asia/India was wiped out by a war that takes place at the end of the 21st century, only the "Sino-Indian confederation" survived because of their overwhelming populations and by act of conspiracy only "true chinese" left on the ships that brought the population that is now part of the Icaran Empire.

So yeah when I say Asiatic I mean primarily Mandarin Chinese.

Do you think that the Icarans would first try to run genetic tests on those of another race to see if they were truly human or do you think their reply would pretty much be a.
"Screw you" followed by much gunfire?


Probably not, at least not accept as equals. Tolerated, sure, but there will not be much respect there unless the other culture is in some other way superior (i.e. a culture of savants) to Icaran.



Well I sort of was thinking of having it that the average Icaran pittied those of a "weaker" culture and would sort of feel obligated to trying to "help" said culture (i.e instating Icaran physical demands on the new citizens). Would that sound like an appropriate response or do you think Icarans would rather just avoid them altogether?

Dogscoff (your post is too long to make a single quote http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif)

Well I figured it would be dangerous yes but not from the viewpoint of an Icaran (which the story will primarily be told from) which is part of the reason I'm asking a lot of questions before just randomly writing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Unlike my short stories on this board a book would give me much more chances to actually explore Icaran culture and society so I want to have a living breathing culture that has some good and some bad points.


So some more questions for ya'll:

How do you think Icarans would treat a newly conquered human world by their nature (not by act of plot).

In one of my earliest prototype stories Icaran FedSec soldiers (at the time called StateSec changed for obvious reasons SS abbreviation) would be deployed to take children away from their families (often kicking and screaming) and literally drag them into the Icaran schools where they would not see their parents again until the world was "cleansed" (i.e last generation pre-conquest died out).

They would also have no problem shooting rebels without any sort of warning or attempt at arrest, sometimes destroying entire towns that rebelled or resisted too heavily (I.e after their military is defeated armed Partisans are expected to lay down their arms or are instantly considered rebels/warcriminals)

To the Icarans dragging the kids to barracks was seen as "saving them" while destroying the rebels was seen merely as "securing their future and that of the Empire".


How do you think an average Icaran would behave in their normal life?

I sort of had it that besides being deeply religious and very active physically they are a lot like us in that there are loads of different personality types, attitudes, etc right down to one of the main characters remembering back to what we would call "highschool" when he embarassed himself in front of a group of female classmates.

I also in my prototypes sort of had it that they don't usually actually discuss their faith (they see it simply as something that is and not really needing of a lot of talk).

more questions to follow http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Will]

Actually, dogscoff does have a good point about a tightly integrated theocracy. Not sure how much that would be the case, since there technically are two religions. If there would be a huge reaction against Atheists for denying God, it would be reasonable to think that there would be a reaction against the Buddhist-inspired religion, for essentially having a very different concept of what exactly God is. For there to be minimal clashes, there would have to be several individuals that follow the Buddhist sect in high positions of power, and the state operation of the "main" religion should impose minimally on the "other" religion, which would mean that a lot of the core beliefs must reconcile. That doesn't seem too difficult, as there would likely be a lot of overlap, and you haven't provided any details as yet that distinguish religious activities from what could be normal secular activities (i.e. the intense physical training for all).

As for the reaction to dark-skinned humans... I doubt the first reaction would be a blood/genetic test. But I also doubt that the first reaction would be "kill it!" Like I said, they would not be accepted as equals. If you're imagining Icarans being somewhat benevolent, I could see that. If there would be interaction, I would put it somewhere along the spectrum from being treated like sentient pets (with almost zero education) to a class of servants and/or slaves. The position on the spectrum could very well differ depending on location, even on the same world. And the sustain process would almost certainly be forbidden for any except "pure" Icarans.

[dogscoff]

Will has a point. If they can reconcile two official religions within their society (I would be very interested to find out if there are power struggles/ conflicts/ tensions/ resentments between the two religious sects. It seems likely) then there is a basis for reconciling outside religions too. Those religions, though, would have to have strong overlaps with the official religions- they may even have to overlap on *specific* issues, ie the core ones that overlap between the state religions.

What I would suggest is that you invent a word to represent the 'core' beliefs/ dogma that are common between the two state religions, and which therefore allows them to co-exist. In other words, all Icarans believe in "core". However half of them believe in "core" with pseudochristian bits bolted on while the other half believe in "core" with pseudobuddhist bits bolted on. Obviously all of these things would have to have credible sounding names and more precise definitions. That system sounds to me like the kind of highly rational and regimented solution your Icarans might come up with.

Maybe "core" is the bit taught in school, while the bolt-ons are taught in the home. Better yet, maybe "core" is taught to all first-schoolers, and then they move to a specialist "bolt-on" school to complete their indoctrinat^H^H^H^Heducation. If later schooling is specialised according to the student's abilities (this seems quite Icaran to me) then this could lead to interesting class divisions: For example, perhaps engineering schools tend to be of the pseudochristian variety, so pseudobuddhist-type engineers are less common than the pseudochristian ones. This imbalance could well be a source of tension (especially if it means one religion is less likely to be well-paid/ reach prestigious rank), which is key to any novel.

If an outside religion can be somehow reconciled with core (and the Icarans would probably make deliberate attempts to modify a 'conquered' religion to this end - it certainly wouldn't be the first time in human history) then that religion can be absorbed and accepted. If it's tenets are too far from the 'core' to be reconciled (ie atheism, perhaps polytheist systems, any system which rejects religious involvement in politics) then it will have to be eradicated- even if this belief system has significant overlaps with the "bolt-on" parts of Icaran religion. Obviously, any belief whose supporters are too resistant to change to accept the 'modifications' the Icarans demand could expect similar treatment.

I would also draw your attention to this extract from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostage -
Major powers, such as Ancient Rome and the British who had colonial vassals, would especially receive many such political hostages, often offspring of the elite, even princes or princesses who were generally treated according to their rank and put to a subtle long-term use where they would be given an elitist education or possibly even a religious conversion. This would eventually influence them culturally and open the way for an amical political line if they ascended to power after release.

Given the ancient echoes you are trying to introduce into your Icarans (I seem to remember they have their roots in antiquity in some kind of alternate timeline) this strikes me as appropriate behaviour for them as a means of indoctrinating a conquered people, and also as a means of introducing foreign characters into Icaran cricles- this is very valuable from the author's point of view, since it allows you to write exposition for the reader, ostensibly for the benfit of the protagonist. Note that this kind of hostage-exchange didn't always work for the Romans: On more than one occasion the hostages went back to their people at the end of their stay and then built an army to oppose Rome. Might be worthy of your research, anyway.



In one of my earliest prototype stories Icaran FedSec soldiers (at the time called StateSec changed for obvious reasons SS abbreviation) would be deployed to take children away from their families (often kicking and screaming) and literally drag them into the Icaran schools where they would not see their parents again until the world was "cleansed" (i.e last generation pre-conquest died out).

They would also have no problem shooting rebels without any sort of warning or attempt at arrest, sometimes destroying entire towns that rebelled or resisted too heavily (I.e after their military is defeated armed Partisans are expected to lay down their arms or are instantly considered rebels/warcriminals)



I don't really know how the Icarans would respond to all this- presumably they aren't immune to pity (although conditining can do an awful lot to make people think pity doesn't apply to certain types of other people- hence all the horrible things that humans have done to one another throughout history), and so some kind of dissent could be fostered within Icaran society if ever get to see just how just how grisly it all is.

However I can tell you how the victims of this repression would react. Again, this isn't new to human history, and the reaction of the repressed is always the same: For as long as some members of the persecuted group survived, and for as long as the oppressors pursue this policy, they will have to deal with violent resistance. To quote Iain M Banks:
"Outright destruction of rebellious ships or habitats - pour encouragez les autres - of course remains an option for the controlling power, but all the usual rules of uprising realpolitik still apply, especially that concerning the peculiar dialectic of dissent which - simply stated - dictates that in all but the most dedicatedly repressive hegemonies, if in a sizable population there are one hundred rebels, all of whom are then rounded up and killed, the number of rebels present at the end of the day is not zero, and not even one hundred, but two hundred or three hundred or more; an equation based on human nature which seems often to baffle the military and political mind."

Just out of interest, has Icaran-buddhism retained the "do no harm to any living thing" principle that is central to buddhism? That could make things... complicated. How would the Icarans deal with an 'old-school' buddhist, Ghandi-style non-violent protest?

Finally, have you ever read HHGTTG? They aren't really the same as your Icarans, but the people of Krikket in the third or fourth book might be worth your attention. They do share a certain absolutist, self-centred psychology when it comes to foreign policy. If you haven't already, read it. (All in the name of research, you understand.)

[Starhawk]

Will has a point. If they can reconcile two official religions within their society (I would be very interested to find out if there are power struggles/ conflicts/ tensions/ resentments between the two religious sects. It seems likely) then there is a basis for reconciling outside religions too. Those religions, though, would have to have strong overlaps with the official religions- they may even have to overlap on *specific* issues, ie the core ones that overlap between the state religions.



The "state" religion is The Path, the Neo Budhism is only practiced by a tiny percentage of the Icaran population, all of whom are descended from Asian populations. It is tolerated because it believes in "Heaven" and "purification" of the soul to reach "enlightenment". Key features that allow it to be accepted if not widely practiced in Icara.


If an outside religion can be somehow reconciled with core (and the Icarans would probably make deliberate attempts to modify a 'conquered' religion to this end - it certainly wouldn't be the first time in human history) then that religion can be absorbed and accepted. If it's tenets are too far from the 'core' to be reconciled (ie atheism, perhaps polytheist systems, any system which rejects religious involvement in politics) then it will have to be eradicated- even if this belief system has significant overlaps with the "bolt-on" parts of Icaran religion. Obviously, any belief whose supporters are too resistant to change to accept the 'modifications' the Icarans demand could expect similar treatment.



In my stories here Icarans ended up actually reconciling Jews into the Empire because Icaran Theologists could actually reconcile a handful of points that barely allowed them to be accepted by law as a legal religion.
Likewise however when the Icarans met Hindu's it was not a nice encounter because Icarans were outraged by the polytheistic nature of Hinduism as well as the fact that many Hindu's the Empire tried to convert merely assimilated parts of the Path AND Neo-budhism into their faith.


Just out of interest, has Icaran-buddhism retained the "do no harm to any living thing" principle that is central to buddhism? That could make things... complicated. How would the Icarans deal with an 'old-school' buddhist, Ghandi-style non-violent protest?



Yes the Neo-Budhists are actually forbidden to do any harm to any living thing, thus they never serve in the Forces, or Federal Security, they are also exempt from any jobs that involve the production and or upkeep of weapons or ships of war. They are sort of seen as naive by the Pathists who see the passive nature of Neo-Budhists as a weakness that invites death if it weren't for the protection of the Pathists.

Well their reaction to rebellion and "demonstrations" is rather in proportion to what is going on usually, so for an example if you have a group of monks leading a silent peaceful protest FedSec forces would simply walk in and arrest everyone as peacefully as possible. (it is a crime to protest the government in Icara and is punishable with anything from public flogging to death depending on what the situation was)

If however you had an Icaran army in say modern Iraq the place would be a mess as Icarans wouldn't mind blowing places of worship, graveyards or even TOWNS to hell if they continued seeing terrorist activity from said location. They also would have no problems crossing borders to track down and destroy terrorist cells regardless of political constraints.
They also would show no mercy to anyone willing to hide a terrorist cell and would pretty well destroy them.

Icarans justify this kind of behavior (as well as kidnapping the children and keeping them within heavily guarded schools) as securing the place for future generations to live in peace and be effective Icaran citizens.

Generally if a population that is conquered is peaceful the Icarans just take the children to schools and allow their parents to live out their lives without the Sustain process (the children are given Sustain) and if the world already HAS sustain type treatments then the adults are permitted only two children and are then steralized and their children taken to schools and then to seperate Icaran controlled cities.
Effectively creating two "worlds" in one.

But for the most part Icarans try and assimilate a society into the Empire and turn them into equal and effective Citizens.
And there are a LOT of perks to being an Imperial citizen, 100% sure you'll never be unemployed, universal medical care for all legal citizens, 100% equality with any citizen under the eyes of the law, assured of a place within the community and a sense of community.

[dogscoff]

Interesting stuff. however the more you reveal about them, the more I find your Icarans strangely inconsistent.

You say they are quite happy to kill entire communities as "collateral damage" just to wipe out a small minority of hidden enemies.

This proves that they place absolutely no intrinsic value on human life (despite their preachings about the human body as "work's [sic] of art to glorify their creator").

Also, they obviously aren't scared of stirring up dissent on a massive scale- this policy of forced sterilisation and tearing families apart would generate whole armies of highly-motivated, nothing-to-lose underground fighters/ terrorists/ insurgents that would make the PLO or IRA look like the cast of a primary school nativity play.

So if they don't see life as special, they don't care about pissing people off and nobody has a right to anything except free healthcare; why, when confronted by a peacful (but illegal) demonstration by a bunch of buddhists, would they risk their safety and waste their time and resources in an effort to "arrest everyone as peacefully as possible"? Especially when they are only they are going to flog or execute these guys later on anyway. Why not just shoot them all on the spot?

The glimpses we've seen of the Icaran criminal justice system seems focussed entirely on aversion by means of brutal punishment rather than any kind of rehabilitation. With the department of employment already struggling to find streets to sweep and dishes to wash in order to fill their "full employment" policy (presumably the government is actively repressing labour-saving technology that could do these jobs automatically) there seems little benefit to using criminals as slave labour. Bearing these points in mind, what's the point in keeping someone alive once they've been branded a criminal? It'd be cheaper and easier to just shoot the perpetrators dead in the street where an immediate and shocking example can be made of them to any onlookers.

Also, they go to extreme lengths to enforce conformity: Again, I quote the policies on kidnapping children and forced sterilisation, but to be honest the entire system seems bent on churning out an endless stream of factory-moulded citizens designed to do as they're told and not under any circumstances to think for themselves. With this in mind, why would Icaran society bother 'protecting' a sect they see as weak and naive, and who refuse to take on their share of the of the Empire's military risks and responsibilities? It would be interesting to know exactly how the special allowances in Icaran law that allow the buddhists to avoid the military were won in the first place (because they sure as hell wouldn't have gotten very far trying to win rights via peacful protest=-) and just how they manage to keep those special-case rights from being revoked. What happens to a Pathist who is afraid of going to war and tries to dodge the draft by changing his religion?

Given that military service "is considered one of the highest callings in the Empire and every Icaran shows respect to a soldier in uniform", surely those who reject such a calling on some "weak and naive" principle of pacifism would be considered a coward and held in contempt. I can easily imagine gangs of gung-ho teenage pathists sneaking into the buddhist slums at night, finding buddhists and beating them to death. The local police would of course turn a blind eye- After all, service in the police force would be as abhorrent to the buddhists as the military, given the violent excesses of the state, so the police would not look favourably on those who consider law enforcement below them.

[Starhawk]

Well let's address your points Dogscoff http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


You say they are quite happy to kill entire communities as "collateral damage" just to wipe out a small minority of hidden enemies



Note I said destroy TOWNS not necessarily the people living therein. Basically it depends largely on the extent of which the townsfolk are supporting the rebellious elements. If your entire community is a threat to Icara then it is neutralized.

For example Falujah Iraq (sp?) we KNOW that a whole hell of a lot of the population supports the local terrorists but we don't want to blow up the Mosque where the weapons and terrorists are hiding, we dont want to destroy the sacred places that they are using.
Icarans would have no problem dropping a MOAB on such a target and wouldnt' feel at all bad about it later.

Likewise if the entire town is hiding/supporting the terrorist elements Icarans wouldn't hesitate to open fire on an armed party of attackers regardless of the damage done to the town hiding it. If they kill a lot of innocent people it sucks but they wouldn't let it get in the way of their soldier's survival.

Basically to clear that bit up for you Icara's view is "while all human life is a work of God's art Icaran life is just a little bit more important." so in their mind it's not strange at all.


Also, they obviously aren't scared of stirring up dissent on a massive scale- this policy of forced sterilisation and tearing families apart would generate whole armies of highly-motivated, nothing-to-lose underground fighters/ terrorists/ insurgents that would make the PLO or IRA look like the cast of a primary school nativity play.



Well yeah except for that the parents would have to attack the very schools where their children are staying in order to even remotely "free" them and while it sounds strange to us the Icaran soldiers guarding the children would fight every bit as hard to protect those children as they would any of their own because by their mindset those children ARE Icaran.

For the most part a world's population is simply "left alone" as far as the Icarans are concerned, they are allowed to do whatever they want since they can't reproduce and their children are safely in Icaran care. Most of the people of a conquered world won't see an Icaran soldier again for years or even EVER unless they stir up something the government considers serious enough for FedSec or Military intervention.


So if they don't see life as special, they don't care about pissing people off and nobody has a right to anything except free healthcare; why, when confronted by a peacful (but illegal) demonstration by a bunch of buddhists, would they risk their safety and waste their time and resources in an effort to "arrest everyone as peacefully as possible"? Especially when they are only they are going to flog or execute these guys later on anyway. Why not just shoot them all on the spot?



Well like I said they consider all human life a work of art yes but they are concerned for their citizens above all others and the stability of their Empire over other concerns. So basically its one of those things that they'll do something bad to enforce the "good".

As to why they wouldn't merely gundown unarmed and peaceful protestors its because they do try to spare life as much as possible.
As far as why they would "risk" themselves, well against unarmed protestors a brigade of FedSec riotbreakers in full body armor isn't in much danger.
And why would they go through the trouble of taking them as peacefully as possible to flog them later? Well a flogging doesn't do any permanent harm and only a few cases warrent execution other then that your seen primarily as misguided and stupid.


The glimpses we've seen of the Icaran criminal justice system seems focussed entirely on aversion by means of brutal punishment rather than any kind of rehabilitation. With the department of employment already struggling to find streets to sweep and dishes to wash in order to fill their "full employment" policy (presumably the government is actively repressing labour-saving technology that could do these jobs automatically) there seems little benefit to using criminals as slave labour. Bearing these points in mind, what's the point in keeping someone alive once they've been branded a criminal? It'd be cheaper and easier to just shoot the perpetrators dead in the street where an immediate and shocking example can be made of them to any onlookers.



Their legal system is actually very harsh only if you consider a public beating and humiliation that is considered "all's forgiven" over YEARS in jail for a relatively minor offense.
To them a shoplifter deserves a beating and a public humiliation that he has to recover from, while in OUR society that shoplifter goes to jail for long periods of time.

To them a murderer/rapist/pedophile deserves death instantly upon the guilty charge being filed while to us said criminal rots in jail sucking up taxpayer money and gets to use an expensive attourney and a boat load of appeals.

Drunk drivers who haven't hurt anyone would get beaten in public and then taken to a hospital to clean up, we just throw them in the drunk tank and leave them to their alchoholic ways.

So yeah to them OUR legal system shows little mercy and is damned inneficent at that.

They pretty much consider the beating to be an "alls forgiven" and your records dont keep you from getting a job, or moving on in life.

As for the labour saving technology, yes to an extent any technology that would fully replace a human being is considered bad unless said tech can save lives. However because of this they actually develope labor ENHANCING technology that would allow a human to do MORE work more safely but not replace them.


Also, they go to extreme lengths to enforce conformity: Again, I quote the policies on kidnapping children and forced sterilisation, but to be honest the entire system seems bent on churning out an endless stream of factory-moulded citizens designed to do as they're told and not under any circumstances to think for themselves. With this in mind, why would Icaran society bother 'protecting' a sect they see as weak and naive, and who refuse to take on their share of the of the Empire's military risks and responsibilities? It would be interesting to know exactly how the special allowances in Icaran law that allow the buddhists to avoid the military were won in the first place (because they sure as hell wouldn't have gotten very far trying to win rights via peacful protest=-) and just how they manage to keep those special-case rights from being revoked. What happens to a Pathist who is afraid of going to war and tries to dodge the draft by changing his religion?



Not to throw out too much detail and spoilers but their rights were earned as an act of pennance by the Empire for an act they consider a terrible shame and blemish on their record.

It is enforced by tradition and conversion to Neo-Budhism is pretty much a no-no while conversion FROM it is considered a good event.

They are basically being allowed to die out slowly and peacefully but while still allowing the Empire to maintain it's dignity and save face and honor.


Any Icaran converting from the Path to Neo-Budhism would not have a fun time, especially if they found out it was because said person was evading the draft.


Basically the Empire has blended some Chinese sense of "honor" with it's western roots and when something becomes tradition or the Empire swears on it's honor to do something then they do it out of a sense of duty.

[dogscoff]

Note I said destroy TOWNS not necessarily the people living therein.


So in other words, someone has to take all the people out of the town, filter the bad guys from the innocents, then destroy the town. If you've filtered out the bad guys, why not deal with them and let the innocents go back to their homes?

Or did you mean the population is just moved wholesale to some other region and then the empty town destroyed? What does that achieve, other than forcing the entire population into poverty and recruiting more dissidents?


Basically it depends largely on the extent of which the townsfolk are supporting the rebellious elements. If your entire community is a threat to Icara then it is neutralized.

But there WILL be innocents in there.



Basically to clear that bit up for you Icara's view is "while all human life is a work of God's art Icaran life is just a little bit more important." so in their mind it's not strange at all.



OK, if that's their attitude, then fair enough. What they do doens't have to make sense, except to them. However it does cast doubt over their claims to respect life and so on. You will have difficulty getting the average reader to feel any kind of sympathy for a people with this attitude, however.



Well yeah except for that the parents would have to attack the very schools where their children are staying in order to even remotely "free" them



If your children have already been lost to you and you have no chance of seeing them again, and now you know they are now being brought up by someone who will try to make them forget you and turn your children into nasty little clones of your hated enemy... many parents may well be driven to kill their own children, certainly to risk the lives. Desperate people will do extraordinary things for a political principle or for revenge. Just look at suicide bombers.

Besides, they wouldn't have to attack the schools, would they? They could attack some other school containing only someone else's children. Kill as many of them as possible, in order to show the Icarans how it feels to have your family torn apart. Or target the parents. Or plant bombs in shopping centres and libraries and government buildings and so on and just kill anyone who supports, even passively, the regime that destroyed your life. Keep doing it, against all odds and opposition and oppression until some concession is made to end the violence. That's how terrorism works, and why heaping oppression upon oppression does not solve problems, it just creates more people with nothing to lose.


As to why they wouldn't merely gundown unarmed and peaceful protestors its because they do try to spare life as much as possible.


But this seems wildly out of character. They don't respect life, they seem quite willing to deprive people of it at the first turn. The sanctity of life is at best a secondary concern to the stability of the Empire (personally, I suspect it's even lower down the list than that) - and as we know, politicians are always willing to label things a threat to the stability/ security of the state in order to push their own agenda. What's more, police are always willing to make the same claims in order to justify the use of the fullest extent of their powers.


As far as why they would "risk" themselves, well against unarmed protestors a brigade of FedSec riotbreakers in full body armor isn't in much danger.


As long as they *are* unarmed peaceful protestors. As soon as people see that what appear to be peaceful protestors get soft treatment and close contact with a squad of police, one of the state's many many enemies (one of the parents mentioned above, someone who has been beaten and humiliated for some minor crime, someone who is disaffected for some other reason and has no other outlet for his political frustrations) will strap a bomb to themselves, pretend to be a peaceful protestor and then wait for the police to come sauntering up with the handcuffs.

From that moment on, the police will be far less reluctant to just open fire, believe me.


Their legal system is actually very harsh only if you consider a public beating and humiliation that is considered "all's forgiven" over YEARS in jail for a relatively minor offense.


I don't think our contemporary penal systems are particularly good- the USA being one of the worst examples- but would corporal punishment be a sufficient deterrent, especially given the amount of desperate people your system produces? Look at countries and time periods where this was the norm dn you'll porbably find that it isn't particlarly effective. It certainly doesn't address the reason the peron turned to crime in the first plce. It seesm to me that punishment would rapidly escalate to death for even monir crimes: "We keep on floggin this guy and he keeps on stealing bread. He just doesn't learn. What are we going to do with him?"

Also, if everything is forgotten and forgiven immediately, surely the "humiliation" part of the punishment is meaningless..?

You say the rights of the neo-buddhists to live a pacifist lifestyle
... were earned as an act of pennance by the Empire for an act they consider a terrible shame and blemish on their record...It is enforced by tradition



This is the biggest problem I have seen so far.

You're telling me that in a militaristic, top-heavy dictatorship with what looks like a feudal power structure, where the ordinary person doesn't have a vote and can't even protest policies they don't like, so that the ruling class is totally unaccountable to the people and can change the law as often and as radically as they like with no opposition whatsoever, the people in power are going to go out of their way to 'honour' a policy that (a) must be a headache for them, because their military could be stronger without it and (b) would be deeply unpopular with Pathists at all levels of society. (Which doesn't really matter because the people don't get a say, except I'm assuming that in this society of equals the ruling classes and their families are eligible for draft as well.)

When was the last time you saw a politician keep his word on anything? Really?

And that's in a country where politicians are (ostensibly) accountable to the public! In your system, there is absolutely nothing, nothing whatsoever to stop them from going back on their word and drafting the pacifists as soon as the wind blows that way. All they have to do is cite the stability of the state which you already admitted overrides any other possible ethical or moral boundary, and it would be done. No arguments, no protests (well, there might be protests, but they would be dealt with in short order). Done.

Honour would not hold them back an instant, because clearly the powermongers in charge of this imperial machine can and will justify anything in their own minds. They wouldn't even feel they had been dishonourable- they would simply redefine honour in their own heads and- because nobody can disagree with them without being flogged- automatically be right. Remember what they say about absolute power? For example, we've already seen how their high-minded ideals about the sanctity of the human body are blown out of the water at the slightest provocation (even ignoring their casual attitudes toward killing and torturing people, the forced sterilisation policy proves that the human reproductive system- arguably the most mysterious and miraculous part of the body- is something to be casually discarded by the state, against the will of the body in question, when politically expedient) so dismissing lofty notions of "honour" would be trivial.

I'm not saying you shouldn't write about your Icarans, and believe it or not I'm not trying to pick them apart. I'm just trying to point out to you the kind of thing that will make them seem less real and less sympathetic (although the sympathy issue isn't so much of a concern- there have been plenty of worthwhile dystopian stories) to your readership.

Today's recommended reading: Animal Farm by George Orwell.

[Starhawk]

So in other words, someone has to take all the people out of the town, filter the bad guys from the innocents, then destroy the town. If you've filtered out the bad guys, why not deal with them and let the innocents go back to their homes?

Or did you mean the population is just moved wholesale to some other region and then the empty town destroyed? What does that achieve, other than forcing the entire population into poverty and recruiting more dissidents?



No actually what I meant was that basically if they are under fire from a house they destroy the house, they don't risk their own soldiers to try and get the Terrorist OUT of the house before blowing it up and they wont always risk going IN to clear said terrorist nest out.

If under fire from a house they destroy it, unless they are 100% SURE there are hostages in there.

So in the end if you let terrorists use your house as a base you lose your house, its sad but it saves Icaran lives.

Likewise they would blow up Mosque/Church/Graveyards/etc if there were terrorists using them as bases of operations, the average Icaran soldier might feel guilty but they wouldn't let it stop them. And the state as a whole wouldn't feel bad about it.


But there WILL be innocents in there.



There are always innocents caught in the line of fire sadly, its just Icarans wouldn't let a few innocents deaths change their ENTIRE warfighting policy to the extent of say the US where it wont even let them chase known enemies into certain regions.


OK, if that's their attitude, then fair enough. What they do doens't have to make sense, except to them. However it does cast doubt over their claims to respect life and so on. You will have difficulty getting the average reader to feel any kind of sympathy for a people with this attitude, however.



Actually this makes a lot of sense from even a modern political viewpoint, YOUR Citizens are more important then someone else's ESPECIALLY if that someone else is attacking your nation.

Its no more self centered then any other country they are just much more open about it and admit it fully.


Besides, they wouldn't have to attack the schools, would they? They could attack some other school containing only someone else's children. Kill as many of them as possible, in order to show the Icarans how it feels to have your family torn apart. Or target the parents. Or plant bombs in shopping centres and libraries and government buildings and so on and just kill anyone who supports, even passively, the regime that destroyed your life. Keep doing it, against all odds and opposition and oppression until some concession is made to end the violence. That's how terrorism works, and why heaping oppression upon oppression does not solve problems, it just creates more people with nothing to lose.



Well like I said Icaran responses tend to be rather proportional to the amount of resistance they get from your world when the fighting is done.

Basically if they land and take out your military (or your military surrenders) and your people are willing to submit then you get treated rather well, your kids get taken to school for six months out of the year (full course) and then for every other week for the remaining six months (half course). They get to see their family and the culture is slowly assimilated into the Empire.

If however you continue resisting THAT is when they take your kids, steralize your population and wait for you to grow old and die and your kids to take over as proper Imperial citizens.

As far as the "blowing up markets etc" goes that wouldn't work on Icarans because like I said they pretty much leave a conquered population alone aside from certain requirements, the conquered world doesn't see a massive influx of actual Icarans so they'd only be blowing up their own people instead of Icarans.

On a world that fought hard enough to earn the "punishment" I described basically all the Icaran facilities would be mini fortresses that are practically unaproachable with anyhting but a nuke or armored regiment....including the "schools" which would be ON BASE.

And Icarans are patient, they've been bred to be and trained to be so twenty years, thirty, even fifty would simply be seen as a waiting game to a population with SUSTAIN level lifespans. Eventually the dissident population will die off or be too old to be effective, and then your new generation can come in and take over.


But this seems wildly out of character. They don't respect life, they seem quite willing to deprive people of it at the first turn. The sanctity of life is at best a secondary concern to the stability of the Empire (personally, I suspect it's even lower down the list than that) - and as we know, politicians are always willing to label things a threat to the stability/ security of the state in order to push their own agenda. What's more, police are always willing to make the same claims in order to justify the use of the fullest extent of their powers.



And if you ask any Icaran born citizen then they KNOW their life is secondary to the survival of the Empire, and that the ENEMY is even lower down the list. It's not some hidden state secret or conspiracy it is simply the way it is to them.

And as I said I think you over-estimate their eagerness to take life based on the fact they don't respond the same way to threats as we would. They will destroy any armed resistance yes but then again so does any good soldier, they even take POWs when possible. But the survival of THEIR culture is paramount so if another culture has to die then it will.
But that's really no different then any country if it is threatened with its very survival, if it comes down to an "us or them" its usually "them" that get wiped out.

The Empire is a culture of assimiliation, they'd much prefer to let any rebellious elements grow old and die then to actually have to fight them. But at the same time any rebellious element that threatens Icaran lives has to be destroyed.


As long as they *are* unarmed peaceful protestors. As soon as people see that what appear to be peaceful protestors get soft treatment and close contact with a squad of police, one of the state's many many enemies (one of the parents mentioned above, someone who has been beaten and humiliated for some minor crime, someone who is disaffected for some other reason and has no other outlet for his political frustrations) will strap a bomb to themselves, pretend to be a peaceful protestor and then wait for the police to come sauntering up with the handcuffs.

From that moment on, the police will be far less reluctant to just open fire, believe me.



Aye this is true but they have less then lethal weapons, and bomb sniffers that would help with this if someone was dumb enough to blow themselves up in a crowd of their own people that are working for the same goals as them.

FedSec is a single "police" force they are controlled by the Imperial government not local governors (constables are controlled by local governors and are responsible for most petty crimes while major crimes fall under FedSec jurisdiction) so they wouldnt likely open fire just because a local governor flips out and says to.


Also, if everything is forgotten and forgiven immediately, surely the "humiliation" part of the punishment is meaningless..?



Basically as far as the GOVERNMENT is concerned all's forgiven, you still have to prove to your fellow citizens that you learned from your mistake and are willing to grow and move on.

And like I said they actually DO take you for analysis after punishment (like the drunk driver being taken to hospital so they can clean him up) and try and make you "better" if possible.

And actually btw there are cultures that DO still practice public beatings and it is quite an effective means of stopping minor crime as most people dont want to face their peers with the same sort of crime again.

As far as your statements regarding the Neo-Buddists, in a population of billions there are only a few thousand of them left so their overall numbers contribute about jack squat to the strength of the Armed forces. So honoring their "act of pennance" is not difficult.

And I think you misunderstood the government a little, yes the Praetor and High Lords are pretty much absolute but the Nobles themselves are not so much and are answerable to several authorities (the military, the High Lords and Praetor and to some extend their own populace).

So any governor seen as betraying Icaran honor would not likely end up dead.

They are ALL raised to the same standards, noble and citizen, all in the same schools together all taught the same, and for the most part you have to EARN a noble title you cant just walk up and ask for one.

And yes noble families are liable for a draft just like any other fit young Icaran, and they face the same 25 years service.

Even the Praetor's family (except for first born son) and High Lords families are liable for draft and service (in fact it is strongly encouraged for a noble child to serve their Empire).

[dogscoff]

If under fire from a house they destroy it, unless they are 100% SURE there are hostages in there.



There are always innocents caught in the line of fire sadly, its just Icarans wouldn't let a few innocents deaths change their ENTIRE warfighting policy



Ok, I see where you're coming from. However I do think you underestimate the extent to which people will resist, even in the face of utterly hopeless oppression.



Basically if they land and take out your military (or your military surrenders) and your people are willing to submit then you get treated rather well, your kids get taken to school for six months out of the year (full course) and then for every other week for the remaining six months (half course). They get to see their family and the culture is slowly assimilated into the Empire.



But no-one will submit, and any military worth its salt would fight to the very last to resist the Icarans if they knew what was in store for them. You say "people will be treated pretty well" but I have yet to see single thing in the Icaran Empire that is in any way superior to the system I am living under now. If I feel that way, why should the members of a space-age society of a comparable tech-level to the Icarans feel any different? They are probably quite happy with their lives, they don't need some squad of totalitarian fascists to come down and impose their twisted utopia. People might even, you know, resent that quite strongly.

You also have this bizarre notion that people will regard having their children sent away to be "educated" (ie indoctrinated into an offensive, alien mindset) as a good thing. Imagine your kid coming home in the evening.
Mum: "Hey Billy, how was school?"
Billy: "Great! Today we learned that the Emporer is supreme and that the blood-drenched subjugation of the galaxy is his god-given and inevitable destiny."
(Mum gives Dad a worried look.)
Dad: "Uh, right. You know Billy, that's just one point of view. Some people might say that..."
Billy: "Ha! Teacher said you might be traitors! You'll have your tongues cut out for this, rebel scum!"

have you made any effort at all to see this from the point of view of the victims?

Suppose someone conquered your country and said "Your culture and way of life are obselete. We will eradicate it and replace it with our own. You will not raise your children in your traditions, they will be raised in ours. You may not reproduce without our permission. You may no longer practise your own religion. You *will* respect our megalomaniacal supreme dictator. You will obey every order given to you because the authority of our Emporer is absolute. You may no longer vote, voice dissent, have any say in your own public life or gather in public for political purposes. You and your children will serve in our military so that we may use you to impose similar barbarity on other peoples elsewhere. Icaran life is more valuable than yours. All of this will be enforced with dispassionate violence, surgery, abduction and brainwashing administered by a bunch of cold, aloof foreigners who will live in gated communities and make no effort at all to understand you, learn about you, or make any compromise to your way of life. Resistance is futile. Have a nice day."

Would you submit and say "oh well, at least I get free heathcare and a job?" Or would you flip them the finger and devote yourself to driving the bastards out of your homeland and back to where they came from? Would you, reading all this in a story, respect anyone that simply rolled over without a fight? Would you feel anything but hatred for the invaders? By all means write the Icarans that way, but don't expect anyone to like them, and don't for a minute suppose that they would be welcomed anywhere.



But let's take a scenario where the Icarans conquer a world of people who do roll over. Maybe the Icaran system isn't so different to the one it replaces, so the Icaran propoganda merchants managed to persuade 99.9% of the population to just accept a new portrait on their currency, call themselves Icaran and get on with life. On a planetary scale, the 0.1% remaining represents a significant number of people who will resist.

So some fighting breaks out. Maybe an icaran soldier or policeman gets shot. maybe an Icaran facility or convoy is blown up. Maybe a high-profile collaborator has his family kidnapped.

The Icarans attempt to deal with the situation the only way the know how: With uncompromising oppression. Except they don't really know who to target. Maybe they catch a few people, but there are plenty more who get away.
So they start being a bit less precise in their methods: Any one of the locals could be an enemy, so let's treat them all as suspicious. Impose a blanket curfew on everybody, take out entire buildings from afar rather than risk sending someone in to take out the few targets in there. I mean we're Icarans now, and all Icarans are equal, but some are more equal than others, right?

Some of the pacified people who submitted will inevitably suffer, find their meagre remaining rights being stripped away. Maybe their children get taken away, maybe their uncle gets blown away as collateral damage in a raid on a suspected resistance hideout, maye a brother gets beaten for breaking curfew, maybe a cousin gets taken away and "has an accident" after looking at a policeman funny. It becomes gradually more and more apparent just how much local life is worth compared to Icaran life.

You might like to think that the locals will blame the resistance for stirring up trouble, but that's not how it works. People will compare how it was before the occupation and how it is now. They will blame the person pulling the trigger for the shooting of an innocent, not the activist who the Icaran gunman thought he was aiming at. Suddenly some of those passive people are no longer passive, suddenly they choose not to submit. And the more of their family members are killed, the more homes are destroyed, the more lives ruined, the less they have to lose. They take up arms. The resistance continues, the oppression is intensified, more people are disaffected, the cycle escalates.

Before long what was a relatively quiet world with a minority of troublemakers is an utter hell-hole in a state of perpetual war. Uttely ungovernable and completely incapable of producing anything in the way of useful industry.

I think I've put forward my case pretty strongly that there WILL be resistance- substantial and determined resistance- on pretty much any planet they invade.

So how do they deal with resistnace? Well...



As far as the "blowing up markets etc" goes that wouldn't work on Icarans because like I said they pretty much leave a conquered population alone aside from certain requirements, the conquered world doesn't see a massive influx of actual Icarans so they'd only be blowing up their own people instead of Icarans.

On a world that fought hard enough to earn the "punishment" I described basically all the Icaran facilities would be mini fortresses that are practically unaproachable with anyhting but a nuke or armored regiment....including the "schools" which would be ON BASE.

And Icarans are patient, they've been bred to be and trained to be so twenty years, thirty, even fifty would simply be seen as a waiting game to a population with SUSTAIN level lifespans. Eventually the dissident population will die off or be too old to be effective, and then your new generation can come in and take over.




Take a look at Iraq. Most of the people dying in suicide bombs aren't americans- they are Iraqis. Do the insurgents really think they can kill all of the thousands of well armed soldiers and tanks the US have over there? Are they even trying to do that? Hell no, and they know they don't have to. All they have to do is cause enough noise and news and expense and death and misery so that staying just isn't worth the Americans' while.

All warfare boils down to economics. The invader wants your natural resources, your industry, your infrastructure, your workforce. However, the value of those assets has to exceed not only the cost of the invasion, but also the cost of maintaining and defending the assets post-invasion. So your Icarans, having conquered a people, can't just steal the children and leave the rest to die out- or they could, but then all they've done is to snatch a load of children and lose everything else. They will emerge from their bunkers fifty years later to find an anarchic wasteland, all industry and infrastructure long ago destroyed by sabateurs determined deny it to the enemy. What is the cost of rebuilding all that? What is the cost compared to simply glassing the world in the first place and re-colonising it with native-born Icarans? Presumably they don't have any kind of reproductive crisis, and so don't actually *need* to steal babies in order to perpetuate themselves. What is the cost of glassing and recolonising an occupied world compared to simply colonising an empty one?


It's not enough to sit in a bomb-proof bunker and guard that bunker. They might as well never visit the planet in the first place. No, once they've conquered a people, they need to police them, collect taxes and resources, supervise production and prevent the locals from plotting liberation. They will have no choice but to send in troops to guard factories, offices, bridges, power plants, mines, ... they will have to send in administrators to and rub shoulders with the leading figures of local industry and production, make sure that facilities are being run properly and that their output os all accounted for...

Those troops and administrators will cost money, and will be exposed to danger. Sure, they can draft in collaborators to do much of the work on their behalf, but collaborators will be far more exposed than any 'true' Icaran, and there will also be serious issues of trust.

Even if their troops and administrators and trusted collaborators are nigh-invulnerable in super high-tech body armour, you're still left with the problem of protecting an entire planet of infrastructure from an enemy within. On budget.

My point (finally) is that I can't help think that invading a population and then attempting to deal with their violent (and justified) resentment by sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING" isn't quite such a straightforward solution as you think.

Of course, this all ignores the possibility that the Icarans don't invade for economic gain, but because they can't stand the thought of someone out there who isn't like them, and isn't under their control. That, of course, is highly irrational and as such requires no further justification, but if they are prepared to incur massive costs on unprofitable holy wars, how the hell are they not bankrupt already?

[Starhawk]

Hmmmm well I might have overstated some of the hostile responses of Icarans.

Like I said primarily they try and assimilate a culture and slowly convert it over time with the children and leaving things as intact as possible with as few "true" icarans as possible on planet.

And if you look at (of all things) Hitler's germany you can see how seducing the young people of a population can help to secure your hold over a people and bring them into line.

And for joe schmo on the street whos smart enough to realize their vote doesn't count for all that much anyway (as was proven by Bush winning for example) then losing the total vote of who is your leader doesnt make much of a difference.

Also free health care, assured of a job and livelihood, assured of equal treatment under the law yeah a lot of people would find that nice.

[Starhawk]

Also an important thing to remember is I am writing a society that is slowly evolving as well, some of the brutality is slowly replaced because as THEY assimilate cultures they are also changed slowly.

I wont spoil to much because I still haven't fully fleshed it out but if you've read my short stories posted here then you'll see what the Empire is STARTING to become (which is a more culturally diverse and just society although still rather mono-religious and still xeno hating).

They'll never be a culture WE would want to be thrown into as their justice system is still based on public flogging and humiliation for crimes (which they consider merciful since you can get back to life while WE would throw you in jail for years).

They'll still always be "state-centric" where children are raised in school as much as at home to be loyal citizens and good citizens (including helping and supporting one another).

They'll always be the "master-race" mentality when it comes to humanity vs aliens, and when it comes to their exercize regimes and fitness demands.


But they do have some very good sides as well and I think Dogscoff your just sort of blowing some of the 'badness' out of proportion BECAUSE it is a culture you wouldn't like.

For example the fact they consider their own citizens more valuable then other nations, well DUH every nation feels that way or else whenever a war started both sides would pillow fight for fear of hurting the OTHER guy's people.

The fact they respond to terror WITH terror is alien to us, but to them its a matter of "Show no fear and break them" where we have the "OH MY GOD YOU KILLED SOME OF US WE QUIT!"

Like i said I probobly misphrased some of their responses to make it sound overly cruel but for the most part they are just a tough people that believe there is no compromise with an enemy because so long as that enemy state exists it will make war on you again and again until one or the other side is destroyed.

As far as religion goes they see that as a major source of strife and hatred, so the state religion and a handful of others (all mono-theistic mostly Christian/Jewish in heritage and not taught in school) are the only legal ones to prevent people from fighting their fellow citizens over doctrine and destroying the Empire.

I mean thats the thing Dogscoff you seem to want to think just because they are raised state-centric and community-centric they are all mindless drones, thats not true and doesn't HAVE to be true either.

You also consider anti-demonstration laws to be OMG HORRIBLE but if you think about it how many "peaceful protests" turn into riots that kill people? Their government just doesnt want to deal with it and neither does the average citizen.

You also treat the draft as OMG HORRIBLE but there are nations today that have mandatory service FOR ALL CITIZENS (as in EVERY single ONE) but those people are hardly abused and simply consider it a service to their people.
So what the Empire might knock on your door some day and say "loyal citizen you must serve 25 years in the Armed Forces" in a society where you live to be 300+ 25 years isnt so bad.

As far as the sterilization goes, BFD there are countries today that impose severe penalties for having more then a certain number of children, the Icarans just see this as part of life (you have 3 kids as a citizen, 1 is automatically drafted when they hit 16 the other two can go on with life and you are steralized to prevent further children) the process can be undone if you lose a child or if an exemption is made on your part so all it really is is that you dont have to remember birth control every day for the rest of your centuries long life. When your average citizen lives for CENTURIES population growth MUST be controlled.

[dogscoff]

Also an important thing to remember is I am writing a society that is slowly evolving as well,



That is an important thing, I'm glad you've taken it into consideration- not because i think the Icarans need to be changed, but because change is interesting and change is what drives storytelling.


For example the fact they consider their own citizens more valuable then other nations, well DUH every nation feels that way or else whenever a war started both sides would pillow fight for fear of hurting the OTHER guy's people.


Well yeah, but there are still certain standards to which we today expect other enemy's people to be treated. Now obviously your Icaransd would never have heard of the Geneva convention but the principles behind them- and the consequences in terms of morale, escalation and so when those standards aren't adhered to- would still apply.


The fact they respond to terror WITH terror is alien to us


Not alien at all. I've lost count of the amount of times in this thread I've had to stop myself making comparisons with Iraq. I think I'll just add this to the pile.


want to think just because they are raised state-centric and community-centric they are all mindless drones[quote]

Perhaps not mindless drones, but certainly heavily indoctrinated with state progoganda. I would imagine a conversation with an average Icaran to be much like a conversation with a USSR-era Russian: Most of the time it would be like talking to anyone else, but when you get on to certain subjects, their opinions would seem oddly divorced from reality.

[quote]
think about it how many "peaceful protests" turn into riots that kill people?

A very tiny percentage. What's more, a lot of those that do turn nasty do so because the police (under orders from the gov) provoke violence and then blame it on the protestors. It's a standard tactic.

But even so, I gladly accept the risk of rioting as a price to pay for the right to demonstrate. Freedoms almost always come with risks attached. Still, its irrelevant how *I* feel about it, the point I was trying to make is that it is another sign of a totalitarian regime, and as such the Icarans would not be welcomed everywhere. But we've covered that ground.


You also treat the draft as OMG HORRIBLE but there are nations today that have mandatory service


Actually, I would support some kind of national service (as long as everyone was offered a non-military option.) I think it's a good way to halp people appreciate their public services. The only times I mentioned the draft were (a) to point out that one section of society being exempt is likely to cause friction and (b) point out that if it were enacted on conquered people, then that would be unpopular among those people. It's one thing to be forced to serve in your own military, it's something else altogether to be forced into somebody else's.


As far as the sterilization goes, BFD there are countries today that impose severe penalties for having more then a certain number of children,

Yes there are. That doesn't make it right.

Also, and this is just me looking at realism again, are such measures really necessary? Population does have a way of balancing itself out, look at the falling birth rates in the world today in industrialised countries: As people become more wealthy and the cost of raising children increases, people have less children. They want to make money and travel and have fun and establish their careers before having kids, so that when they are ready they can provide all the modern comforts to their offspring. What comforts are available in Icaran society, and how long does it take to earn them? Maybe people would wait until they get their military service out of the way first, not wanting to have a child until a significnt risk of orphaning it has passed. Also, a person might be an adult at 13 or 16 the eyes of Icaran law, but would society really consider them ready for adulthood, when they have 200-odd years of fertility left to them? More on that later.

Obviously your long life spans make a difference, but even with 200 - 300 years of fertility, I don't find it unlikely that most couples would limit themselves to a handful of kids, especially with advanced, high-tech contraceptives that are less prone to failure(*) than the methods we use today. After all, with all that time, there's no rush. You could have one child and devote all your time and attention to it until it's well into adulthood - although this means the child would be without siblings of a similar age, with such long windows of fertility there's no reason why a child couldn't be born at the same time as scores of its cousins, uncles, aunts, nieces and nephews. Family members might even plan to get pregnant at the same time, so that the kids can grow up together.

There would be exceptions in either direction, of course, but an average of four or five kids per couple over 3 centuries doen't seem improbable- bear in mind that by the time you hit 250, you'll have more great grand children than you can count anyway, so you won't feel the need to have more of your own, you'll be happy sharing the your child-raising expertise with younger generations of parents.

(*) To be fair, I believe most of today's 'contraceptive failures' are down to user error rather than a fault in the actual technology, but user error is still something that could be countered with better technology.)

Also bear in mind that societies not facing immediate resource shortages tend to encourage higher birth rates: More people=more productivity. It's not as if your Icarans have only one world with limited resources to share between their entire population, like we do.

Just out of interest, regarding the state control of reigion and procreation, are these things derived from their links to today's China?

Something else that I find interesting about your Icarans is that they consider people adult at age 13. It seems strange that you've extended adulthood massively for your Icarans, and yet shortened childhood. Given the massively expanded lifespans, in conjunction with it being such a patriarchal society (patriarchal in the sense of deference to heirarchy and authority, not necessary in the mysoginistic sense), I find this a little strange. Most 40 years olds I know today would regard a 13 year old as immature, and that's in a very open-minded environment compared to, say, 100 years ago. How do you think a 240 year old would feel? Even if Icaran law says 13==adult, I think older Icarans would definitely treat people so young with a certain amount of condescension, and all but the most exceptional adults under the age of 40 would have difficulty getting people to take them seriously. Maybe there could be different 'levels' of adulthood, enforced by tradition rather than law, with 'coming of age' rites of passage at various stages through life/ life events (parenthood, grandparenthood, 25 years service in the military or some other job.)

[Starhawk]

That is an important thing, I'm glad you've taken it into consideration- not because i think the Icarans need to be changed, but because change is interesting and change is what drives storytelling.



(the Icaran Empire of today btw doesn't come from an alternate history but rather 7,000 years in the future when the story begins with them set in a modern industrialized world and developing FAST with rival nations still on their new homeworld)

Aye http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I think so too which is why I've made this thread I want the evolution to seem natural and "necessary" rather then contrived and forced.

For example at their earliest stages on their home world they would be brutal and cruel as a NATION but it would be out of necessity for survival but as they spread out their "conquests" become more and more political rather then military and they slowly assimilate rather then brutally exterminate rival human cultures.

The one thing that I wont have change in the forseeable future is their hatred of aliens.


Well yeah, but there are still certain standards to which we today expect other enemy's people to be treated. Now obviously your Icaransd would never have heard of the Geneva convention but the principles behind them- and the consequences in terms of morale, escalation and so when those standards aren't adhered to- would still apply.



Aye this is true but we today see MASSIVE violations of the Geneva convention on both sides of any war right down to the kind of ammunition used (Designed to wound horribly rather then kill swiftly).

And to a people 7 millenia and hundreds of wars seperated from Geneva and on a world where your rivals are equally brutal and cruel in warfare the concept would probobly seem naive at best.


Not alien at all. I've lost count of the amount of times in this thread I've had to stop myself making comparisons with Iraq. I think I'll just add this to the pile.




Well WE consider it bad THEY consider it normal which we would find rather alien.


Actually, I would support some kind of national service (as long as everyone was offered a non-military option.) I think it's a good way to halp people appreciate their public services. The only times I mentioned the draft were (a) to point out that one section of society being exempt is likely to cause friction and (b) point out that if it were enacted on conquered people, then that would be unpopular among those people. It's one thing to be forced to serve in your own military, it's something else altogether to be forced into somebody else's.



Actually the Police Force, civil engineers, shipyard employees (ALL space based construction is government controlled and monitored) and even teachers are considered public servants.

And given that if by 16 you dont even show efforts at looking INTO a job you can find yourself pretty much placed in a job even if you'd hate it. And if you quit said job you must have a good reason or a new job lined up.

Also you made it sound like the government would be hard pressed to CREATE jobs for people, this is not entirely accurate as they don't OUTSOURCE ANYTHING to other nations which means millions of jobs that we today would outsource to other countries because it's cheaper they would keep at home out of a matter of LAW. Add that to the fact that when they finally do reach space they hit an industrial boom like we couldn't imagine today and you have tens of millions of jobs opening up that would ALL go to Icarans.


Also, and this is just me looking at realism again, are such measures really necessary? Population does have a way of balancing itself out, look at the falling birth rates in the world today in industrialised countries: As people become more wealthy and the cost of raising children increases, people have less children. They want to make money and travel and have fun and establish their careers before having kids, so that when they are ready they can provide all the modern comforts to their offspring. What comforts are available in Icaran society, and how long does it take to earn them? Maybe people would wait until they get their military service out of the way first, not wanting to have a child until a significnt risk of orphaning it has passed. Also, a person might be an adult at 13 or 16 the eyes of Icaran law, but would society really consider them ready for adulthood, when they have 200-odd years of fertility left to them? More on that later.



To answer the first part of your question, it would benecessary to control populations because:

1) Icaraverse space travel is still expensive and time consuming with the smallest interstellar ships being the size of a Yamato class Battleship and the largest being multi-kilometer constructs.
2) The Government controls ALL immigration and you have to sign up with the Colonial Division before you are even considered for colonization. (this is to control the potential spread of disease among other things).
3) Colonization is a rough industry a lot like those of early pioneers, with many colonies taking YEARS before they are made fully habitable.
4) It ensures the population doesn't outgrow economy so that you dont have millions of people born into a world with no jobs or industry even possible for them for decades to come.

So adding these together a world with a population of say 7 billion people (the poulace of the Empire when SUSTAIN was discovered) ALL OF WHOM have at least 300 years of life expectancy and most of whom are going to be having children and with space travel being expensive and time consuming population control IS necessary. And the sterilization IS the ultimate form of Birth control (especially since it is reverseable by time it is taken into practice with loyal citizens).


Just out of interest, regarding the state control of reigion and procreation, are these things derived from their links to today's China?



IRL yes, in-universe no. In universe this was born because of an event in human history (about 22nd century AD) known to Icarans (and many others) as "The Second Fall of man" or "The great damnation" or "The darkest age" where population explosions stripped the Sol system of vital resources and religious wars and the attempt to exterminate religions to "prevent the religious wars" caused the home star system to basically burn its self out. (The Icarans among others are the few "pure" humans that remained by this time and when they discovered a lightspeed drive in the early 23rd century they pretty much hauled arse out of SOL before the last great wars erupted) so its sort of burned into their psyche. The irony is the lightspeed drive didnt get a chance to work for the Icarans.


Something else that I find interesting about your Icarans is that they consider people adult at age 13. It seems strange that you've extended adulthood massively for your Icarans, and yet shortened childhood. Given the massively expanded lifespans, in conjunction with it being such a patriarchal society (patriarchal in the sense of deference to heirarchy and authority, not necessary in the mysoginistic sense), I find this a little strange. Most 40 years olds I know today would regard a 13 year old as immature, and that's in a very open-minded environment compared to, say, 100 years ago. How do you think a 240 year old would feel? Even if Icaran law says 13==adult, I think older Icarans would definitely treat people so young with a certain amount of condescension, and all but the most exceptional adults under the age of 40 would have difficulty getting people to take them seriously. Maybe there could be different 'levels' of adulthood, enforced by tradition rather than law, with 'coming of age' rites of passage at various stages through life/ life events (parenthood, grandparenthood, 25 years service in the military or some other job.)



Well yeah in the eyes of the law they are now legal adults, but they are still seen as having a lot of growing up to do (just like we look at 18-25 year olds today)

But yeah as far as what you say goes I was thinking of it kind of like that, given the lifespans getting your first job is a first stage of adulthood, then as you grow up and find better jobs or join the armed forces your seen as maturing.
When you marry that is seen as another step in the maturing process, then children and grand children.

So LEGALLY at 13 your an adult, but you have a LOT of growing up to do and you are taught all through school to listen to and learn from your elders.