A revisit to politics

[Siirenias]

You know, I was hoping that empire AIs would get smarter...

But this is just trouble.

Either there's a glitch in the system, or one of my computer enemies is running a smear campaign on me, committing to intelligence attacks against my allies in my name. Is there a way to defend against this? I've even gone so far as to fill in "Cooperative Intelligence" where I had no projects assigned ever to compensate. I don't think it's having an effect.

[AgentZero]

You must murder his people, destroy his ships and burn all his worlds. Obviously.

[Suicide Junkie]

The best defense against intel facilities is to bombard them from orbit.

[Siirenias]

What I mean to ask is, is it a bug or a feature?

[Atrocities]

Time for some gun boat diplomacy.

[Spectarofdeath]

Not ALL of his people surely, I mean, you obviously take the hot females as slaves...right? lol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

...And to think, I didn't post *My* sarcastic comment so as not to take the thread OT.

*Sigh* Wasted effort...

[Siirenias]

Half a dozen replies later, and the answer is only alluded to.

Good work, guys.

[Suicide Junkie]

Well, I dunno if it is a bug, but stock intel has never been very good. Even modded intel.

Best to either turn it off completely, or at least remove all the destructive sabotage stuff (leaving the traditional spying)

[Arkcon]

Wow, people really hate intel. Whether its stock, or modded, they just hate it. Don't know why you'd call it a bug, it seems to me like a stroke of genius, giving the AI a benefit, at human player expense (I didn't code SE5, so I can't be sure). It seems to model real world events quite well. And back in the days of early SE4 it was notable in the Dubious Strategy Guide, how intel was able to break an unstoppable armada.

[Renegade 13]

I *think* (but am far from sure) that it is intentional behaviour. Kind of makes sense doesn't it? If I were to commit destructive acts of sabotage against someone, I'd be sure to attempt to pin it on one of their allies. Divide and conquer!

[Xrati]

I don't like intel and NEVER use it in ANY game I play. /threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif

[Arkcon]

Xrati said:
I don't like intel and NEVER use it in ANY game I play. /threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif

Why? It was bad in SE4 by popular opinion. The AI was often poorly programed, either in stock or modded, to use it. Have you tried it in SE5, and if so, why don't you like it.

[Xrati]

The AI's are not set up to use it properly and you are usually the benefactor of ALL of the AI's in the game. When I say I don't use it in ANY game, I mean MOO3, SE4, CIV or ANY game that has it.

Picture this, Humans want to infiltrate a Reptillian world? Do we clone an alligator? Come on, sabotage I can see with a very small chance of it actually being pulled off (unless it's human vs human).

It's just another way of equalizing the AI to look like its hard to beat. It boils down to a bad 'random event' (for you) just waiting to happen. I just see no merit in it or reason for it. We watch too much TV to think that all 'covert ops' are going to be successful.

[aegisx]

Xrati said:
The AI's are not set up to use it properly and you are usually the benefactor of ALL of the AI's in the game. When I say I don't use it in ANY game, I mean MOO3, SE4, CIV or ANY game that has it.

Picture this, Humans want to infiltrate a Reptillian world? Do we clone an alligator? Come on, sabotage I can see with a very small chance of it actually being pulled off (unless it's human vs human).

It's just another way of equalizing the AI to look like its hard to beat. It boils down to a bad 'random event' (for you) just waiting to happen. I just see no merit in it or reason for it. We watch too much TV to think that all 'covert ops' are going to be successful.



Does greed not exist in these other civilizations? How about Blackmail? If anyone ever played C&C: generals: "There is always a way in". There are many ways to accomplish the goal other than sending in a team.

Granted, Intel systems with AI players is rough and tough to implement properly.

[Siirenias]

Blackmail, bribes, threats, subterfuge, insertions of loyal ex-patriots...

I'm not saying it can't be done, but why can't I do that?

[Xrati]

Does greed not exist in these other civilizations? How about Blackmail? If anyone ever played C&C: generals: "There is always a way in". There are many ways to accomplish the goal other than sending in a team.

Granted, Intel systems with AI players are rough and tough to implement properly.



aegisx, You think in human terms. A society that does not use monetary values and has no sectorate classes would be VERY hard to bribe.
Your last statement is very correct and is why I will not use any Intel system. Obviously, you agree too!


Blackmail, bribes, threats, subterfuge, insertions of loyal ex-patriots...
I'm not saying it can't be done, but why can't I do that?


Siirenias, good points but again, all human based in "human logic".
Blackmail - Only useful when something of great value can be lost to the victim.
Bribes - totally useless except human races.
Threats - Pretty much out in the open, no need for intel here.
Subterfuge - Open to different interpetations, I cannot comment on such a diverse topic.
Insertions of loyal ex-patriots - The key word here is LOYAL, to whom? Probably a good idea for a true counter-operatives (double agents).

Now, tell me what's so good about intel? I still don't see it. It always turns into a 'game within a game' mentallity and I don't buy games like SE4 for the way their intel plays out.

[aegisx]

Xrati said:

Does greed not exist in these other civilizations? How about Blackmail? If anyone ever played C&C: generals: "There is always a way in". There are many ways to accomplish the goal other than sending in a team.

Granted, Intel systems with AI players are rough and tough to implement properly.



aegisx, You think in human terms. A society that does not use monetary values and has no sectorate classes would be VERY hard to bribe.
Your last statement is very correct and is why I will not use any Intel system. Obviously, you agree too!


Blackmail, bribes, threats, subterfuge, insertions of loyal ex-patriots...
I'm not saying it can't be done, but why can't I do that?


Siirenias, good points but again, all human based in "human logic".
Blackmail - Only useful when something of great value can be lost to the victim.
Bribes - totally useless except human races.
Threats - Pretty much out in the open, no need for intel here.
Subterfuge - Open to different interpetations, I cannot comment on such a diverse topic.
Insertions of loyal ex-patriots - The key word here is LOYAL, to whom? Probably a good idea for a true counter-operatives (double agents).

Now, tell me what's so good about intel? I still don't see it. It always turns into a 'game within a game' mentallity and I don't buy games like SE4 for the way their intel plays out.



Of course I agree that they are tough with AI's, but I do not agree that Intel operations against aliens wouldn't work. Sure, there may be some races, like hive mind, that would be very difficult to exploit. But that doesn't mean others wouldn't have traits that would make them vulnerable. You are assuming humans are the only ones with these traits.

[Xrati]

Humans are probably one of the few races that would stoop so low as to use Intel.
Done correctly, each race would have different traits to apply to its intel. Each race would be able to effect other races in ONLY certain areas of intel. Soooooo, what you would have is different races requiring different strategies against one another. Again, a game within the game. The intel could be it's own game! I don't want to go there!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

[Renegade 13]

While I agree with your overall assessment (that intel sucks)...


Xrati said:
Humans are probably one of the few races that would stoop so low as to use Intel.


Making this assumption is as bad as making the assumption that all races would be corruptable (which you refuted).

[narf poit chez BOOM]

One alien race in fiction is completely loyal to their leaders.

They still play games of Intel, because:
A) They can fake loyalty to another leader out of loyalty to theirs.
B) It is possible (Although very difficult) for them to switch loyalties.
C) Leaders. Multiple. Only one of which they are loyal to.
D) They have multiple-clan organizations - Such as a judicary Assasins' Guild.

[Siirenias]

SO far as I can tell...intel really doesn't do much but cosmetic damage. I mean, sure, you can taint worlds, maybe blow up a ship or two. But against a competent opponent, all you accomplish is depriving your enemy of real estate on which he must build Intel installations for self defense.

[Xrati]

Renegade 13 said:
While I agree with your overall assessment (that intel sucks)...


Xrati said:
Humans are probably one of the few races that would stoop so low as to use Intel.


Making this assumption is as bad as making the assumption that all races would be corruptable (which you refuted).



Fist hand experience!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif