OT: Deciding on a new graphics card

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Apparently, nvidias' geforce 9 series will be out tomorrow, which means the price of geforce 8 series cards will drop. My old card, being an AGP card, is rather unsuitable. My new card, which came with the motherboard, is small and cheap.

My new motherboards' best slot is a 'PCI Express x16', which is apparently fancy and new.

A card in the mid-range would probably be best.

Thanks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Ed Kolis]

PCI Express x16 is fancy and new? Hmm, funny, I have like a 3 year old machine with one of those... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Unless you're talking about PCI Express 2.0 x16... that's apparently something different which I'm not familiar with http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The GeForce 9 is coming out tomorrow? Darn, I should have held off on my order of a GeForce 8600 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Here's the one I got - can't tell you how it is yet because it hasn't arrived yet, but I'll let you know when it does - should be later today, as according to the UPS tracker, it's "out for delivery" from the local distribution center as of today! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150258

I also ordered a pair of 1GB RAM sticks, so that might also affect my performance, seeing as I'm currently at 1GB total, so don't attribute everything I'll be saying later on to the video card! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Kana]

Best card for the money right now is just about any 8800 GT, or 8800 GT OC. EVGA being one of the best brands in terms of customer service and such. Do some research, there are plenty of sites out there with reviews.

http://www.gpureview.com/GeForce-8800-GT-card-544.html

[PvK]

Eh, but the Geforce 8000+ series cards all have features which are for Vista only, not to mention the Vista sabotage features. So for those of us who have no intention of running Vista, the GeForce cards to consider are still the 7000-series. No?

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Nope, no PCI Express 2.0...And they probably aren't compatible, either.

[Ed Kolis]

Well, I got my new video card, and while I wasn't impressed with the HD output (it was a vast improvement over my previous card's HD output but still not enough), I think that's more a factor of having a cheap HDTV, so I switched back to VGA like I was using before.
Now, to try out some games and stuff... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif
I'd say something about Windows Vista running a lot smoother now, but that's probably more a function of the extra RAM I added than the video card... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Combat Wombat]

umm where did you hear series 9 was out tomorrow? Either way I would go with a:

Geforce 8800 GT 512MB
or
Geforce 8800 GTS 512MB(not sure this is released yet)

[Kana]

PvK said:
Eh, but the Geforce 8000+ series cards all have features which are for Vista only, not to mention the Vista sabotage features. So for those of us who have no intention of running Vista, the GeForce cards to consider are still the 7000-series. No?



I have a 8800GT and Win Xp. The only feature of newer cards that is Vista only is DX10 compatiblity. Yet they will all run DX9 or younger games just as easily.

[Fyron]

Ed Kolis said:
"PCI Express x16 is fancy and new? Hmm, funny, I have like a 3 year old machine with one of those... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Unless you're talking about PCI Express 2.0 x16... that's apparently something different which I'm not familiar with http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif"

PCI-E 1.0 and 2.0 are electrically backwards and forwards compatible, as will be 3.0 whenever it comes out. They tried to design the standard to be long-lasting, and able to evolve over time (unlike ISA, IDE, PCI, etc.). The only difference is that PCI-E 2.0 devices in 2.0 slots can run faster, with greater bandwidth.

PvK said:
"Eh, but the Geforce 8000+ series cards all have features which are for Vista only, not to mention the Vista sabotage features. So for those of us who have no intention of running Vista, the GeForce cards to consider are still the 7000-series. No?"

Vista sabotage features??? Rampant paranoia much? Nvidia and ATI (AMD) have absolutely no incentive to "sabotage" anything; no amount of money from MS would convince them otherwise, since they would lose so much more money from poor sales when word got out...

The 8xxx series cards are a lot faster than 7xxx, and 9xxx will be a lot faster still. 8xxx and 9xxx support DX10, yes, but they still do DX9 a lot faster than the 7xxx cards.

Narf:
The greatest consideration is how much money you want to spend. There are so many f*ing cards now that you can spend as little as $60, on up to $600 or more (not to mention retarded SLI setups). People thought that MS' efforts at market segmentation with Office and Vista were bad, just look at what Nvidia and ATI do...

[narf poit chez BOOM]

About $200 max - But there's probably a point where the money/bells-and-whistles ratio makes it inneficient to add more of the former. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

So I could buy a PCE-E 2.0 card and it would work with the PCI-E 1.0 slot?

[narf poit chez BOOM]

I'm currently looking at this one:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130319

Can it support two monitors?

[Fyron]

99% of video cards these days have two VGA or DVI (simple, bundled adapter to connect VGA monitor here) outputs. Even budget-range 8xxx cards have em (though they might cheap out with DVI + VGA). For the card you linked, look at the Specifications tab; it shows 2 DVI under Ports. You can also see on the picture that it has 2 DVI ports, as well as a S-Video out.

The 8800GT 512MB is a very solid card, and about the most expensive card you'll get before the price/performance ratio starts going to infinity.

"So I could buy a PCE-E 2.0 card and it would work with the PCI-E 1.0 slot? "

Yep. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pci_express#PCI_Express_2.0)

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Thanks, all. Looks like I found my new card.

One question left: How long until the price goes down, or has it already gone down?

[Fyron]

That's about how much a 8800GT 512MB cost back in December (though you had to find it on sale or pay an extra $40).

[tesco samoa]

Narf.

Since your near them.

Did you check out directcanada.com or ncix.com

They have had some great sales on 8600GT and 8800GT

Last week there was a 320MB 8800GT for 149 dollars. I would wait it out until a 512MB one goes for your max price.

[Fyron]

New review of 9600GT (mid-range 9xxx card), comparing it to 8600GTS and 8800GT and ATI HD 3850 and 3870.

http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/nvidia-9600gt-review.ars

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Fyron: So the prices aren't expected to drop? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

Tesco: Thanks for the references. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I'll have to compare to store prices.

Fyron: Looks like the only advantages of the 9600 are price and lower power consumption.

[PvK]

Yes, Vista sabotage features. If anyone's paranoid, it's the likes of media megacorps and M$. As in, requiring hardware to support shutting down or reduced fidelity of audio/visual media if systems think they detect DRM issues, as has been discussed and articles cited on this forum about the time Vista came out. The "word" has been out since then - how could you forget it?

And no, not all the 8xxx cards are faster than all 7xxx cards. When I researched that point a few months ago, the advantage was for the 8xxx series unless one coveted the DX10 (Vista only) support.

Hence my inquiry.


Fyron said:
PvK said:
"Eh, but the Geforce 8000+ series cards all have features which are for Vista only, not to mention the Vista sabotage features. So for those of us who have no intention of running Vista, the GeForce cards to consider are still the 7000-series. No?"

Vista sabotage features??? Rampant paranoia much? Nvidia and ATI (AMD) have absolutely no incentive to "sabotage" anything; no amount of money from MS would convince them otherwise, since they would lose so much more money from poor sales when word got out...

The 8xxx series cards are a lot faster than 7xxx, and 9xxx will be a lot faster still. 8xxx and 9xxx support DX10, yes, but they still do DX9 a lot faster than the 7xxx cards.

[Fyron]

Fast 8xxx cards (G92 GPU especially) are faster than the 7xxx line. Naturally, there are gimped cards for the low to mid ranges that won't be as fast as the highest end 7xxx cards, due to the insane amount of market segmentation GPU makers run.

==0==

HDCP is hardly a "Vista sabotage feature." It will come into play in any OS, including XP, Mac OS X, and Linux (unless you use DMCA-illegal cracking software). It's not Microsoft/Nvidia/ATI/Intel 's fault that the movie studios force encryption, and you can't hardly blame them for wanting their OS/hardware to not be gimped and unable to play the latest media. The movie studios wouldn't give a damn if MS/Nvidia tried to take a stand and refused to support HDCP; they would probably prefer no support at all for computer playback, since it only leads to piracy in their eyes. Either piss off the movie studios that don't care, or piss off your customer base... hell of a choice. Of course, HDCP support doesn't matter in the slightest if you are not playing Blu-ray or HD-DVD movies, making it not much of a reason to stop buying newer video cards. Vista's protected media path doesn't come into the picture without ridiculously DRMed content.

Luckily the music industry has seen the light about DRM; hopefully the movie industry will some day, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

[luke_slovakian]

I don't mean to be a bumm and nock you guys off but if you're going midrange get the 8800 GT if you don't want that get the 7950. IF you can afford 340 get the 8800 GTS w/ 640 megs ram and later add on the top cooler for 30 bucks which takes up another slot opening on the comp. The 8800 work on xp they are not only vista. I know this b/c my friend had 7950, 8600 (NEVER GET THIS ONE, IT SUCKS the 7950 is much better), 8800 ultras. Furthermore my friend also works for Nvidea. If you wish i can ask him what he recommends for your setup. But i would get a 8800 GTS w/ 640 ram and in few years buy another and SlI it to run any new games that are out, or the 7950. Take care and good luck

[Kana]

The only problem with the get another vid card and do the SLI thing in a couple of years, is dependent on finding an exact match for your same card that you already have. In a couple of years whatever 8800GTS you may have, may not be the 8800GTS they are building. If your are going to do the SLI thing either do it from the start, or within 6 months or so.

[luke_slovakian]

True. WoW i'm stumped with that, i don't know if the new series would be capable or not. I think they should be BUT would not trust myself on that one. I can ask my friend and let you know.

[Fyron]

SLI is a bad investment all around. Really expensive, for just a few percent performance gains.. Plus its still problematic with most (all?) games.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Has anyone heard something about problems with new nvidia cards? Was a short topic of conversation on the IRC.

Also, does anyone know where NVidia keeps their forums?

Thanks.

[PvK]

Yes, I was talking about the low to mid range products. The articles I have read have pointed at Microsoft as the culprit with DRM sabotage hardware, and Vista (and recently, the next XP service pack) as the means to try to force it onto the market. Paying for hardware that supports this "feature" is paying extra for a sabotage feature, it seems to me, and supporting the idea that people don't have the right to own and fully control computer hardware, which is an idea that seems clearly wrong and counterproductive to me. The 7xxx series doesn't have it, and the 8xxx series does, as well as other features designed for DX10 which is Vista only, and I dislike Vista for many reasons and never intend to own it, so for at least the present and near future, higher-end 7xxx series looks better to me than the 8xxx series.

[Atrocities]

I have a GForce 8800GT and its ok. I run it on my new XP box. Say does any one have a problem with windows XP crashing after you reactivate it from sleep mode on a duo core system?

[Fyron]

PvK:
None of the articles you've linked to in the past on this issue have been worth much; they were filled with misguided alarmism and flawed analysis. HDCP was created by Intel, and only added to Windows after the movie industry forced it into Blu-ray and HD-DVD, and thus any high definition movie content (along with demands of DRM for any digital distribution of their content). It wouldn't do well for MS to not support the latest movie standards in their media center software..

Boycotting the content is what needs to be done, not video cards. If the content mafias didn't demand the encryption support et all, it wouldn't exist. Video card manufacturers have little choice in the matter, since they need to support industry standards for content playback. And besides, if you don't buy any HDCP-protected content, you won't be affected by the chip in the cards anyways. Probably lose a few machine instruction cycles for some conditional statements when you first open your media, but that's it.


Paying for hardware that supports this "feature" is paying extra for a sabotage feature, it seems to me...


Luckily there is not a single piece of hardware that is just a 7xxx card + HDCP chip, labeled as a 8xxx card. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Unless you can't afford an extra $50 or so, you are best off with a 8800GT 512MB even with XP and DX9. It's much better hardware than anything in the 7xxx line. If you can't afford the extra cost of the 8800GT, the next best option appears to now be the 9600GT.

[Kana]

http://www.nvidia.com/object/nvidia_zones.html

Maybe in there somewhere, or under support.

[PvK]

So Fyron, do you have any link(s) to offer that give what you consider relatively accurate summaries of what's been going on with built-in digital copy protection?

[Fyron]

I don't care to do an exhaustive search, but here are a few:

On Windows Vista, DRM, and new monitors (http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/hdcp-vista.ars) - August 21, 2005

Talks about AACS protections dealing with "old" monitors and such.

"Any device—whether it be a PC or consumer electronic device—will need to ensure compliance with the specified policies otherwise they risk being unable to access the next-gen DVD content. Clearly we think that offering next-gen DVD content on the PC is much preferable to having the PC excluded from accessing this premium content.." (Marcus Matthias, product manager of Windows Digital Media at Microsoft)

The truth behind HDCP and video card support (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060214-6177.html) - February 14, 2006

References to problems with the ever-changing AACS spec while companies trying to make products to support it were coming out.

Blu-ray and HD DVD support in Vista out of Microsoft's hands (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060824-7590.html) - August 24, 2006

"The companies backing both HD DVD and Blu-ray are insistent on iron-clad copy protection. That means Microsoft, Apple, and anyone else that wants to be able to play high-definition Blu-ray or HD DVD video will need to support the kind of copy protection mandated by the studios: AACS+ and HDCP."

AACS DRM tentacles reach far into operating systems (http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/aacs-tentacles.ars) - August 12, 2007

"So, when thinking about this issue, we have to ask ourselves: is a company like Microsoft or Apple likely to tell Hollywood to jump off a cliff? No, because both companies know that users will want to play HD DVD or Blu-ray discs on their computers. Microsoft didn't tell AACS LA to stuff it, and Apple won't tell them to, either."

[Ragnarok-X]

Fyron, would you suggest me to upgrade from my 7900 GT to a 8800 ? (2 gb of ram, e6600).

[Kana]

I guess it would depend on what games you want to play, and what detail level you want to play at.

I had an ATI X300SE, which barely ran CoD4 at the lowest settings. Bought an 8800GT, and now I run it maxed out.

[Ragnarok-X]

Currently im running Stalker and CoD at 1280 * 1024 with max details, though no anti-aliasing at all. I dont really have the need for a better GFX since i dont even own Crysis (and i believe CoD 4 is already high-end) but who knows ?

[PvK]

Thanks Fyron.

[Fyron]

Ragnarok-X:
That depends; do you feel your 7900GT is sluggish, or is its performance acceptable for the games you play? Pricing on the 8xxx cards can only go down as more 9xxx cards are rolled out. If you don't feel an immediate need to upgrade, there isn't usually any purpose in upgrading.

[Raapys]

Right now is probably a very bad time to buy a graphics card. Within the next few weeks there'll be new drivers for ATI's 3870x2 (which could possibly take it all the way to the top; or confirm that the card really isn't all that great), we'll see the release of the 9xxx cards from Nvidia and we'll see the introduction of PhysX in Nvidia's cards via drivers. So many changes will greatly influence the market prices, although the performance difference between all these cards isn't too big since none of them are yet introducing new architechture.

Will be interesting to see the performance of Nvidia's X2, though.

[PvK]

Ok, I read these. They are indeed blaming the media corps and acting like M$ (and Apple) has no choice but to design their OS so that it supports this wacked-out DRM design (HDMI/HDCP) that requires computers not to have full control over their audio/visual devices.

Still seems to me that this is unacceptable to me. I don't want to run a so-called Operating System that doesn't let me control my computer, nor do I want hardware that is wired to turn itself off or degrade its performance unless it is obeying some such protocol. My word for that remains sabotage, and it applies to Vista.

[Fyron]

I hope you've never used OS X, Win ME, 2k, or XP either, cause they all have DRM schemes built into them. Not quite to the level of HDCP, but they still "sabotage" your ability to play encrypted media files without permission, and prevent you from not having full control over audio/visual devices in the event you try to play stolen files without permission... Win98/OS9 for life!

I should point out that you still have exactly as much control over a 8xxx/9xxx card (or the ATI ones with HDCP support) as you do over older cards. The only thing you can't do is steal Blu-ray or HD-DVD content and play the files (without also stripping AACS etc., which is in the works). HD-DVD at least had managed copy as part of its spec for backups and media center purposes...

[PvK]

Pre-Vista Windows DRM was trivially opt-out-able, ignorable, bypass-able, run-other-software-able, as it should be on a computer that I own and therefore control.

When the OS (e.g. Vista) and/or video card (e.g. nVidia 8xxx series and later) are designed not to let the owner have that level of control, I feel like if I pay for such a device or OS, I'm supporting a power grab by corporations who want to push an agenda that private citizens should not have the right to freely operate their own computer and program and run digital media hardware on it.

I strongly object to that.

[Suicide Junkie]

How does the OS tell whether you paid the cashier or not before you walked out of the store with it, Fyron?

[Fyron]

You can freely run Blu-ray and HD-DVD movies on a Vista computer, presumably in any software player since the DRM tasks are off-loaded to the OS and drivers... The problem is actually being unable to play such movies on other OSes lacking HDCP support (at least, if the movie studios ever actually enable the image constraint token et all to make it relevant). We're right back to the misguided alarmism.

How were any of the pre-Vista DRMs opt-out? Not buying protected content? Running other software to bypass the copy protection mechanisms to play/rip unauthorized protected media? Able to play any sort of unprotected media without issue? Sounds exactly the same as Vista... The only difference is that the various WMA DRMs, Fairplay, DVD's CSS, etc. have been broken for a while now, and AACS is just now being cracked reliably (BD+ is still uncracked thus far).

The primary problem with the protected media path is that it was a colossal waste of development resources, since it will be bypassed by the "pirates" anyways. Fault MS for it all you like, but it will quickly become irrelevant the day BD+ is cracked. Just like CSS, just like DVD-Audio's protections, Fairplay, WMA, etc. I'm certain MS understood this, but they couldn't afford the black mark of having their media center unable to support the latest media tech..

Strongly object to DRM, certainly, but Vista's (and Nvidia and ATI now) support for DRM-protected content is hardly any different from anything in the past (or from what Apple must be working on for OS X).

Heck, should we fault MS for providing the auto-run support that allowed for the Sony rootkit on a music CD debacle? If they weren't trying to push control on all of us in collusion with Sony, we would never have had that problem!

SJ:
Huh? We're talking about pirated disks here (poorly done ones that didn't have the AACS and BD+ stuff cracked, but still). A legitimate disk will work whether it was paid for or not... But believe you me, if the movie studios could find a way to do that, they certainly would try. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[PvK]

"We're right back to the misguided alarmism." Eh, it seems to me that rather we have two perspectives, and you just keep mis-labeling mine. Your perspective seems to be that "whether the user can play Blu-ray and HD-DVD or not" is a central issue, while I don't want my OS and hardware designed to shut off or degrade if some security code isn't happy. I want the right to program native code (or run whatever third party native code program) that communicates directly with hardware that is designed to let me freely read and output digital signals (e.g. for audio/video). I don't want to be forced to run software/hardware designed to limit what I can do, report on what I'm doing, or shut down systems if my computer seems to be doing something someone else's program hasn't approved.

"How were any of the pre-Vista DRMs opt-out?" Yes, I mean by running other software, or telling Media Player not to connect to the Internet to verify licenses etc. Is not Vista different from pre-Vista in that now it complies with a secret and potentially changeable spec which has the potential to disallow your media hardware to function? Maybe you can run other software on Vista now, but what if the HDCP support decides to update to include checking for unauthorized player software and disables/impairs your media hardware?

"I'm certain MS understood this, but they couldn't afford the black mark of having their media center unable to support the latest media tech.." MS can afford to do whatever they want, and they could very well have taken a stand for users being able to own and operate computers without media-industry sabotage designed into the OS and hardware, and could have led others in the rejection of such crap. Instead they signed right up. Seems to me it goes pretty well with their corporate strategy of trying to own and control how things work and remove such control from users, to slowly adjust users to accepting that people are just users, not owners or actual programmers, and software is a service.