Community effort (phase 3)

[Foodstamp]

I am looking for 4 modders who would be interested in creating a nation. The theme of the nation would be humans that worship the four elements earth, water, air, fire.

The modders would choose one element apiece.

Then you will create 3 units (one sacred), 2 commanders, 2 spells, and 1 hero tied to your element. (for a total of 6 units, 2 spells).

If one of your units is a caster, it's primary magic path must be the element you chose. For the spells, it can be summons, direct damage, anything you want, as long as it represents your elemental path. For standard units, they must have some type of ability that identifies them with their element, for example, an earth unit may have reinvigoration, enhanced protection, an air unit may have lightning resist etc.

I will put the mod together using the units and spells exactly how they are created by the modders, changing unit IDs to avoid conflict etc.

I will create the scout unit, and a priest unit, as well as do the graphics for the flag, and the banner.

The milestones of the project are listed below.

1. Sign up

2. Choose Element / decide on name of mod nation, special themes beyond element focus, any support magic paths, temple picture.

3. Create units/spells/graphics

4. Submit creations to me.

5. Mod combined, modding conflicts resolved.

6. Mod submitted to modders for improvement suggestions, decide on castles used for each terrain, passive defense.

7. Testing

8. Mod released!

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To sign up, reply to this post below with the path you want. Even if you have very little experience modding, you are welcome to sign up, as long as you are able to devote time to finishing your portion of the mod.

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Signup:

Priest/Scout - Foodstamp
Earth -Maraxus
Water -Valandil
Fire -Agrajag
Air -Saulot

Nation specifics----------------------

Era - Late
Nation Name - (Need)
Temple picture - 7

***Special Themes***

Elemental Focus: Meaning the acceptable magic paths are fire, water, earth, air. The path you chose should be the main path for the mages you create, with the other paths being subordinate.

Name: Acatharsis, Conflicting Tribes.

Background: The pretender has pulled the four tribes together. Even though the tribes are bound together by the will of the pretender, they still jockey for position politically and have a distaste for one another, bred by their worship of different elements. The exception being the priest(s)(I am going to create) who are ordained by the new order, so they are not subject to the politics of the precarious alliance.

[quantum_mechani]

Personally, I think four different graphics styles in one nation wouldn't look very aesthetically pleasing.

[Foodstamp]

Even if the four styles are representing completely different aspects of the nation?

[Endoperez]

Earth! Wind! Water! Fire! Heart! By your powers combined and this humans sacrifice, I summon you: Captain Planet! (enter catchy theme song)

[Foodstamp]

Captain Planet requires a sacrifice of 20 virgins!

[Valandil]

Hm. I tried to do a similar project, before everything I was working on (Including Hordes of Chaos, sorry panpiper.) was utterly demolished by real life.

Mine was based on the Arabian nights and the elemental spirits of the desert.

I would love to participate, but I don't think it would be wise, especially after I left Hordes without warning. Still, if you have an empty space and no-one is willing or able to fill it, I will submit something.

Anyways, I think it might be a fun project, even if it looks a bit strange.

[Sombre]

Hmm. I need to think about it. If I come up with something exciting for one of the 4 elements I'll join.

[Maraxus]

12 units out of which 4 are sacred, 10 commanders - sounds like a lot.


I personally like the idea of 4 graphic styles, the units will look more distinquishable. When I create them allown, the units tent to look to similar, making it look boring.

I take one element...

Fire sounds easy, earth looks manageable, too. Air ... is it possible to copy the "fly when blessed effect from Mictlan eagle warriors? ... But Water ... Oh, maybe something amphibious...

I think I take earth. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Valandil]

Actually, if no one minds, I think I can do this, as long as there is a deadline. As long as I'm working for others, and not myself, I should be fine.

On that note, can I do water stuff? I like blue.

[Agrajag]

It sounds really cool, interesting and fun.
However, I'm not sure if I'm appropriate for the job, I've only created one mod ever (for dom2!) and my drawing skillz are abysmal (as whoever played my dom2 mod can testify) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
I do have quite a lot of free time though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
So if you don't mind unappealing sprites (or alternatively, ones that are quite similar to sprites already in the game), and taking a longer time (to relearn modding [there are so many changes and new additions that it's practically relearning]), I'd like Fire. If you do mind, then I don't mind being excluded http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

[DrPraetorious]

I choose Earth.

I'm really liking those conical Chinese peasant hats.

[llamabeast]

I think Maraxus beat you to Earth, Dr. P.

[Foodstamp]

If they both want to do Earth, that is fine with me. It will just lead to a split of the responsibilities for that part of the project http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

So we need someone to do Air, and anyone else that would like to participate is welcome to do so as well, just pick an element other than Earth http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.

[Saulot]

Well, on the plus side, this is an interesting idea. On the down side, it seems like it has potential to not mesh / execute well.

It's worth a shot, and I suppose I could do air. I'm still kind of swamped with my new project, and Dwarf Fortress is not being kind with my time, though I could use a break from both.

If I can't come up with anything too exciting, I'll just resign.

By the way, Foodstamp, I suggest you expand the format / guidelines for the units/commanders/etc., so that the elements do not overly vary in terms of power / balance.

[Valandil]

Hm. What era? I'v edone some preliminary work, but need some guidelines on balance, equipment, and national theme. Also would like a hint as to the other modders ideas so I don't tread on their toes.

Fore example, it seems reasonable that a water-worshipping cult of some sort would have a knightly order armoured in scale mail, like a fish. Scale is pretty poor for late era armour, so I'd probably create a new mail for an LE nation. Same deal with mages, spells, etc.

EDIT: also, PD.

[Maraxus]

It will be late aera?

I've done a first draw now - and I don't mean pictures with that.

What I thought about: Will there be a coralation between the sacret units and the capitol-only units?
I have made the sacret unit available everywhere but another unit capitol only.

teaser: tough, strong units, available at speeds:
slow - really slow - allmost faster when crippled.

Side question: what is the flightsprite nbr. for instant hit, btw? I tried 10000 but it seams to be just "invisible missles" (so it takes unnecessary much time.

[DrPraetorious]

Oh, oops, I thought Maraxus wanted fire http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif That's what I get for skimming.

I'll bow out for Maraxus then.

[Valandil]

How deadly would quickened sacred cavalry be? Quickness is the most applicable water buff, bar water breathing, which I don't like for humans.

What if they are LE capitol only sacreds with scale mail?

Also, any hope for marid/ifreet/djinn/whatever a spirit of earth is called?

[DrPraetorious]

I don't think you can have inherent quickness on units - a spell that quickened all of your sacreds already exists (Music of the Spheres, quickens all sacred mbeings.) Water sacreds could have a cold aura, or cold immunity and ice equipment, or no special powers but lots of kung fu.

The elemental correspondences with Genies is a western revision - more importantly, it is also lame. Folkloric genies would be great, if they were added as a unit.

[Foodstamp]

All the elements are spoken for. Dr. P. I hope you stay on to help with earth.

I am going to leave this open for a few more days to see if anyone else wants to participate.

Until then, feel free to discuss what era would be the most suitable for the nation.

[Agrajag]

Personally, I'd really like to see this is a none-death LA nation, preferably with lots of priest power and not too much mage power.
How about we make them a sort of refugee nation? With all those nations collapsing into death and blood in the late era, many people fled; Some of them met each other and decided to build a small town for shared protection, and as time went by, the small town became a large city famous for protecting its denizens from evil outside influences. Eventually a pretender reveals himself to them and they take the opportunity to rid the world of all the nations that fell to decay and corruption.

[Endoperez]

"Long ago, most of the nations lived together in harmony. Then, everything changed when the undead nation attacked. Only the Pretender, master of all four elements, could stop them."
For some reason, I can't look at this thread without thinking of cartoons. Any way, check out the Alugra mod Agrajag. It has a similar feel to it. If you go that route, every contributer should check that out to make sure they aren't stepping on that mod's toes.

[Agrajag]

Endoperez said:
Any way, check out the Alugra mod Agrajag. It has a similar feel to it. If you go that route, every contributer should check that out to make sure they aren't stepping on that mod's toes.


Huh, Never heard of it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif
But if such a mod exists, I'd rather think of some other back story http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif (rather than have similar stories and tip-toe around another mod.)

[Agrajag]

(new post because I feel this warrants it)
How about 4 warring tribes/clans/families/cults/groups/organizations/mega-coroprations (each from one element), that have been recently forced together by powerful and warriorlike priests lead by an oppressive pretender?
What do other people have to say about the general flavour/theme of the nation?

[Maraxus]

I prefer "Guilds" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

***edit: updated and attached 3 posts below***

Here is the Earth-Guild Part. It's set up as a Nation so you can watch it in game.

***edit: updated and attached 3 posts below***

Features:
-Slow Guys with big shields.
-The worst mage you have ever spend 90 Gold on.

Stuff:
-Banner, icon, provincal defence, descriptive text are all open to change once some more "common backround" is choosen.
-The National hero is comanding the starting army for demonstration purpose.
-Why do my units allways look blurish in the game, they look sharp outlined in the tga-files? Do I use a wrong format or something?

[Sombre]

They look blurry because the size of the graphics is wrong.

They should be 32, 64, 96, 128 etc pixel dimensions, not 72x72 or whatever they are now.

[llamabeast]

I like your earth bit Maraxus, nicely done. The mage is indeed pretty dire and his forge bonus is virtually worthless being as there's little he can forge, but I guess that's what you were aiming for. Maybe you could give them a better chance of getting a second earth pick at least?

[Maraxus]

There is allways something the Smith can forge, when he get's his 10%.

Earth: Earth boots, then Dwarven Hammers, then maybe something else.
Fire: Shields of Awe and Fire Brands. Lots.
Water: Water Braclet, then Rime Hauberg and maybe Boots of Quickness.
Air: Least useful, imho, but Bows of War are always a good use of 3 Air Gems.

Maybe, I buff the Random chance to 20%. Even higher (Like 100%) might be possible, depending on the Mage-Power of the other 3 Elements to come.


That think with the image size - I should have thought of this. I knew there were restrictions like that, but I didn't check my size, or whet those restrictions were.
Now everything is at 64x64 and looks good. Check the Smith's beard. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


PS: Plus, I'm not sure, the new spell "Land War" is not a bit overpowered. It's multiple little earth-melds but each also has +20 fatigue. At medium distance when in two castings some of the enemy squares are hit multiple times, this can potentially be the best combat-earth spell without gems.
And should I ever create the predecessor nation for Bogarus, I'll add this too - and it will also deal cold damage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[llamabeast]

Yeah, maybe up the 10% to some higher value. To get earth boots (which lead onto a hammer) you'll need an E2, which you only have a 1 in 40 chance of getting! I wouldn't really want to recruit 40 of those guys just to get an E2.

[Agrajag]

Well, I've already finished one unit, and he isn't very pretty, but he works and I like him http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
And he includes some fancy shmancy modding - his sword has a secondaryeffectalways that causes fatigue damage :O
Here's a picture of him inflicting 7 damage (and 10 fatigue[well, stun] damage). This sprite is actually his "standing" sprite, I have them switched so that when he attacks it looks as if he raises and then lowers his sword. Pose somewhat stolen from Barbarian.

EDIT: About the smith - maybe give him 20%FW 20%EA (or maybe 10% instead of 20%), so it's a bit more likely that he'll get an extra path, and a lucky few will even have two (but will never get conflicting elements together)

[Maraxus]

Nice one, is that a 2 or a 3 Pixel Blade? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
I bet this would look extra cool if etheral ...

If it's supposed to be a Rapier, maybe make the back-hand visible on he rear side (So, that he is standing in a fencing-like pose).


Okay, I have uped the Smith's random element to 25%. I still encourage the Pretender to have at least 2 earth to forge the first earth boots for the smith (to have them cast Gnome Lore, to forge more earthy stuff) ... At least if the other mages will be good. If they are bad enough, trying 16 Smithes for that one Earth-Double sounds not to bad, too, if you get one Earth-Fire Forger along the way. Oh, I also increased the price to 110 for this. I think the Quarter randon and the forge bonus make him at least as valueable as a Lizard Shaman.

Then there are the spells:
I have played a bit with flysprites and Explosion Sprites and now, both spells have no flight animation and the Land War spell has a nice Earthy animation, so that you see, where the misses land. A bit further testing showed, that the balancing is okay, I think.

However, then there is my Mass-Buff-Spell.
It looks like "Summon Earthpower" is a commander-only buff. I did not even know, this existed.
The Spell uses #effect 10 with damage #damage 65664 which means stone-skin plus strength boost. And then it uses #nextspell 438 - this should be "Summon Earthpower".
Now, Every unit and Commander in the Area gets Stoneskin and Strength but only commanders get reinvigoration and only Earthmages get +1Earth Magic (does not stack with Summon Earthpower, intentionally).
...Hey, this could be an effect of this strange "Special" field. Summon Earthpower has 8404992 here, what is "underwater" plus the strange 16384 might this be "commander only"?

Answer: No, it seams not. If anyone has an idea, just say so. Spell modding is a secret art. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Oh, btw, the spells are set to level 0, so that you and I can try them. In the fianl, they should be more like level 7 or 8.

[Valandil]

Wow, I must be eight hours behind you people.
Re Dr.P: No, I'd have to spoof quickness using def/att, and a 2x weapon. Quickness would stack with the spoofing, though, and produce a real beast- going to have to scrap that idea. I don't want to use ice stuff, primarily because the element in question is water, and to me that implies, well, flowing water.

As for djinni, here I believe you are mistaken. While the western cultures have certainly revised the original mythology, it seems to me that, since the djinni were formed of subtle fire, that there is at least some elemental connection. I would agree that the best Djinn mention that I can find, in Sura 72, refers only to the Ifrit as a spirit of strength. Marids, though indeed part of the original mythology, are certainly associated with the sea only in modern times (and once with glass, as I recall,) though I do not doubt that the original tradition had some place for sea spirits, as every other culture has.

Nonetheless, I will take your advice- in any case Al_Khazim is the only Djinn in Dom right now, and he's pretty mighty for a non-unique summon. 16 points of magic, IIRC.

Will post tomorrow (well, tomorrow for me) when I've finished some stuff.

[Foodstamp]

Anyone have any objections to late era?

P.S. going to let sign up run one more day. Then we will dive into phase two of the project.

[Agrajag]

Foodstamp said:
Anyone have any objections to late era?


I have a preference for LA seeing as how my first unit (which is the sacred, BTW) wears full plate mail and a full helmet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Nice one, is that a 2 or a 3 Pixel Blade?
I bet this would look extra cool if etheral ...

If it's supposed to be a Rapier, maybe make the back-hand visible on he rear side (So, that he is standing in a fencing-like pose).


The blade is 2 pixels wide. And if you compare it with the Barbarian's blade (which I had in the background) it is ~4 pixels longer, so this is more of a great sword than a rapier. Also, the weapon is swung and not thrust http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

As for etherality - I'm sure they would appreciate it, seeing as how thanks to all their armor they have a whopping 5 defence.
Which leads me to say that I'm very confused as to how much I should price them.
On the one hand they are sacred, have a long high damage sword that inflicts unresistable stun damage (in addition to normal damage), they have partial fire resistance and lots of morale.
On the other hand, 5 defence, 9 encumberance, 12 HP and a great resource cost make him somewhat underwhelming.

[Endoperez]

Look at the similar sacred units. MA Man Wardens, MA Vanheim Skinshifters (werewolves instead of sacred), and Mictlan Jaguar Warriors (skinshifters AND sacred, worse equipment).

Also, that is a custom sword right? IIRC, normal Great Sword gives 3 defense. I think that's there to imitate half-swording and other special techniques that enabled the sword to be used as a make-shift polearm, in grappling etc.

[Agrajag]

According to the 3.10 (uber-awesome) DB, a great sword is 9 damage, 1 attack, 2 defense, length 3. This sword is 9 damage 2 attack 1 defense length 4 + 10 unresistable stun damage*.

*-Hmmm, I need to see if that affects lifeless or not, since it shouldn't. (I'm guessing it does :S)

If I compare the unit to an MA Man Warden (in CBM), he has -1 HP and strength, +1 morale and effective attack, +2 mr, +3 encumbrance and +4 protection. + the awesome sword. So I guess a 25% markup compared to the warden is fair, for a total of 50 gold.
If testing proves this is not a good number, I'll just change it. My hunch says they are still underpriced.

[Maraxus]

This is the interesting part about this project, I had totally thought of something else as fire warrior. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

For late era, I might reconsidder my units' armors. 14 protection is not really though there, even for the light Infantery.

[Agrajag]

Yeah, it's a bit unexpected, I know http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Here's a little explanation to help you: (description still subject to rephrasing and changing)
#name "Charred"
#descr "Charred are powerful warriors of fire that have undergone a painful transformation to achieve their power. Their strength lies in a ritual where a potential Charred is burned alive with a sword. Those who survive become the Charred. They wear a full suit of armor to hide their terrible appearance, and their charred swords emit a cloud of ashes that makes breathing difficult."

[Foodstamp]

We are in phase 2 of the development of the new nation.

2. Choose Element / decide on name of mod nation, special themes beyond element focus, any support magic paths, temple picture.

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I would ask that the modders submit names for the nation. The names will be compiled in a list and voted on.

Also, please post any other special themes you would like to see the nation adhere to, as well as any support magic restrictions, and your desired temple picture. If you do not know the numbers of the temple pic, just describe it.

[chrispedersen]

This is a cult who militarily is inferior. But rather, their whole intent is to infiltrate other dominions until they can take over.

Most units are stealthy - units like.. horsemen of the apocalypse (four types) that spread disease, famine( by consuming food via gluttony), war (by attacking province) and dissension (increasing unrest).

You could also have a unit that has a negative on fortunetelling.

Other units.. lepers - with a contagious disease.

Favorite pretender - a carrion dragon with the -morale breath.

The eaters of death would get (free) spawns in a territory, even if they did not control it - so long as spawning units were in those territories.

National Spells - would resemble random events. Barbarian hordes. Vampire counts. Other, seemingly national disasters.

[Maraxus]

I'd vote for:

Name: Parthia

Themes: Feels like 1001 Nights, big capitol, good castles. Flavor texts of wealth, comerce, etc.
The nation might be ruled by Guilds/Castes representing the elements. Inclusion of Djinns optional.

Supporting Magic: I think none is necessary. Definitly avoid blood. I don't really see Death/Nature needed, Astral might be possible (Money=>Luck=>Astral, but everybody has Astral).

TemplePic: Nr 7 looks best for this concept, Nr 9 second.



edit: @chrispedersen: Sounds nice but I can't really see that merging with the elemental focus.

[Valandil]

I'd drop the Djinni, for Dr.P reasons. I hadn't thought it through, but he was right of course.

I like the suggested stuff alot, since its pretty much what I was thinking already. Parthia was the name of a Roman-era middle eastern empire, correct?

I'm working on sprites right now. DM will only take an hour or so, but the sprites might take a couple days. Being a perfectionist is soo dumb (especially when you're never even CLOSE to perfect) ...

Just to check, #onebattlespell is commanders only, no fatigue, gives access to the spell for rest of battle, correct?

re: chrispedersen-
Am I correct in thinking that this is another idea entirly? It's quite interesting, but really not related to elements. Perhaps needs its own thread?

[Foodstamp]

Your correct on how #onebattlespell works, but keep in mind that in order for it to be cast again in combat, the caster must have the paths for it, and it will cost fatigue after the initial casting.

I really like the name Parthia. I also like the idea of making the mod have middle eastern/east euro flavor if no one is opposed. The Middle East is sorely under represented in Dominions, so I think the theme would be perfect for this mod.

[Valandil]

Agreed on both counts. Thanks for the quick response on onebattlespell.

I've finished the sprite for the Blue Templar (working name. Its not really a templar.) Sadly, it is a (very) modified version of the Bogatyr, and not totally original. I can't draw horses.

[Foodstamp]

Thats no problem at all. Since the release of the in game graphics, most of my modding is done by modifying the original graphics. It keeps the units looking "dominionish" and it saves tremendously on time.

[Valandil]

Its annoying for me though. I'm a decently (well... sort of) competant freehand artist, and the prejudice of an artist against anything not totally original remains.

In other news- it seems that there might be a need for something to unify the extremely disparate groups existing in "Parthia." I'm not quite sure- perhaps a caliphate or somesuch, without ties to the indivdual guilds (temples? castes? Orders?)

edit:
Novitiate Sprite1 Complete (Trident Wielding Medium infantry, only benfit from favour of the waves is +1 def, +2 ap.)

Templar Spr1 Complete, finally. (Lance Armed sacred riders. Not really knights, but lance armed. Still working out their gifts.)

[Agrajag]

I like the idea of a bustling metropolis, especially if it will indeed be LA, because like I've said previously, I'd like to see this nation in LA and providing contrast to the rest of the age (which is abundant with death/dying/decaying/corrupted nations).
I'm not sure if I like a middle-eastern theme too much. Mostly because I'm not really sure how to capture that theme, and partly because I'm middle-eastern myself, but when people talk about a middle-eastern theme they do not mean one that is relevant to me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif
My current idea is that we go with the "guilds" theme, maybe our city was just your normal bustling city with four competing (elemental) guilds*, and now with the spreading death, the king has forced the guilds into active military duty to help the city/nation defeat the spreading death of LA.
*-Possibly artisan guilds, perhaps ones that have separated themselves from others for a long enough time to develop their own sorts of "cults"

[Maraxus]

Yeah, yeah, you're just jealous, because I looked through Persian history not Palestine, right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I think right after the great wall of China that's one of the most solid borders in world history. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Well, in what way would we put this decission into practice?
-Colorful cloth
-Big round hats (you can't really get more detailed on a 4x6 pixel head)
-Falchions and Scimitars instead of Long- and Broadswords.

And obviously the name list depends soley on this decission.


...Btw, what would be the name of a 2-handed Falchion?



Oh, what I really wanted to say is, that the historical accuracy will be only minimal, like the many other nations.
And that I feel honored to be an Ulmian Steel Warrior. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Agrajag]

Maraxus said:
Yeah, yeah, you're just jealous, because I looked through Persian history not Palestine, right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Israel != Palestine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

And anyway, it has more to do with me already drawing something that is quite far from being middle-eastern http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif and using a great sword (kind of), and the next unit will have two axes. (though I guess its future berzerkage will fit with the hashish theme)

EDIT: it's->its

[Sawyer]

Couldn't you guys just make metropolitan a theme? That way whoever wants to do Middle-Eastern stuff can do it, and someone who wants to do Greek stuff can do it, etcetera etcetera.

Also... suppose you were to give all sacreds a low MR so that people would be more likely to take a high-astral pretender, and then you could come up with a story of how the pretender god, holding command over the power behind the elements, was able to maintain his power and form a cult around him.

I'm butting out now.

[Endoperez]

Metropolis theme could work out well. However, the other city mod I know of, Alugra, has amphibious infantry (Fishermen somewhat based on Aquaman). It doesn't really matter that much even if both nations have amphibious infantry, because it's such a basic Water-themed ability.

[Foodstamp]

Here is a picture of the Parthian Empire from between ~250bc to 250ad.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fc/Parthian_Empire_248_%E2%80%93_224_%28BC%29.PNG

At the very least, there must have been two large cities in the empire, Ctesiphon and Ecbatana.

My knowledge of Parthia is very limited. I thought the empire extended all the way into modern day Ukraine, so that shows you how naive I am on the subject.

I have a few questions to the people more knowledgeable about the Parthian Empire:

Was Zoroastrianism still playing a major role religiously in the region at the time of the Parthian Empire?

If the answer is yes, I seem to remember there being some elemental focus in the religion, especially concerning fire.

Also, what would be the other mythological influences in the region at the time? Is it far fetched to think there would still be belief in Mesopotamian myths?

Work should be pretty slow tonight, so I am going to delve into some study of the Parthians, it will probably serve me two fold anyway. BTW, I just bought a gigantic illustrated book of world mythologies, so maybe we can draw some inspiration from there as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

P.S. keep in mind it is well within our powers to take liberties concerning the nation, but I would rather not contradict their beliefs, an example being adding woad raiders or Couatls etc.

[Valandil]

I do not think this nation will have amphibious infantry, Endo. I'm intentionally avoiding it, since it doesn't seems like something that any amount of faith or worship of elements is going to give to an ordinary human. That is a pretty significant physiological change. Going to start the Initiate sprite soon.

[Saulot]

It seems to me that Parthia is somewhat well-suited for an amalgamation empire with 4 particular disparate groups. However, I'm not sure that it really fits into the Late Era, and I'm not sure that it fits the degree of difference in the four groups. Perhaps very light inspiration would be the most fruitful route. (Do we really want to rely on light infantry & light cavalry archers?)

Since the general concept here would be a backdrop where trade/commerce or multiple military invasions / successive empires that have placed four seperate ethnic groups into one area; the Middle East could certainly be such a backdrop, as well as Iberia, Sicily, Central Asia, etc. (even the British Isles could be made to fit)

The guild concept is nice in general, but seems ill-suited to this situation. I feel like a better story is that these four groups are actually at odds with each other. They obviously have different magical practices, they should also speak different languages, follow different cultural practices, utilize different military traditions, and have before worshipped different deities. The mechanism of guilds in this case, just simply isn't strong enough.

However, they face great outside pressure due to their wealth from trade, and are united by a strong leader (the pretender) who uses personal charisma, magical force, a priesthood that is on the rise / increasingly popular, and subterfuge (an extensive secret police / spy system) to put the feuds on hold for the time being and able to form one city-state. (Though a confederation of states is an idea of some merit as well.)

Oh, and in reference to Zoroastrianism, while my knowledge of antiquity is a bit rusty, I believe that it certainly flourished to some degree during that time (as it had become popular some centuries earlier and was still around some centuries later), but that as many things Parthian, there is little record of it.

By the way, in regards to air, I haven't been completely idle (I've been doing some conceptualization work).

[Foodstamp]

How do the other modders feel about the idea that Saulot has presented? I really like the concept, and after a little bit of reading, I feel that Parthia would be better represented in a different era, probably middle, maybe even early.

Four ethnically diverse peoples bound together by the will of the pretender. It seems to still mesh well with the Middle Eastern theme for the reasons mentioned above.

We may want to look at a different name for this nation, as Parthia seems to be a mod for another time, another era.

[Agrajag]

I like the idea the Saulot has presented. Mostly because it is an expanded version of an idea I posted here earlier http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif
And here's some new units fighting. (attached)

[Sombre]

Is there any chance the axes could be replaced with semaphore flags?

[Agrajag]

Actually, you are right, I should probably make them rotate their chest a bit.

[Maraxus]

Hey, the name was just a first suggestion.
It was more like "Hey, 1001 Nights sounds like a good flavor, let's see, what name the nation could have" ... And I found this.

I still think, including a Djinn aspect could be interesting, even through I agree, that we really don't need to pick up the "Djinn/Effrit/Dao/Merit" quartnity.
(Note: The Djinn from the lamp has Fire 5, Air 5, Earth 3 Astral 3, I read from the database.)

So, 4 diffrent (and separated) groups united by the pretender god. How would one make this? One option could be, that one has normal mortals and normal leadership, one has undead one has magical beings and one maybe only commanders without leadership - but this does not really sound like it could work for us. There will likely be something like "Earth Infantery in the front, Air-Archers behind and Fire-heavy hitters taking the flanks. Lead by a Water-commander, maybe."

One thing might be to give earth a poison spell either in nature or earth magic), Fire a fire, water a cold spell and air electricity (just as there are, but one more that is maybe 10% better) and give the units 75% resistence against their own element, -50% to the opposed (fire to cold sure, air to poison not so obvious) and -25% to the other two elements.
Does not sound convincing, either.


Edit: about the axe-fighter:
In the attack spirte, I'd position the axes somewhere like 1 and 4 o'clock. Like his is attacking one after another, not both at once.

[Agrajag]

Fire already has a fire spell, the caster makes the target explode http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif (100 accuracy, mr negates, 10+ an damage + nextspell fireball)
As for the rest, making things follow a given formula just tends to make things more boring.
I'll change the axer's sprite, but I'm not sure how much I want to change the angle of the axes. I'll decide when I sit down and rework him.

[Valandil]

The axe armed dude is very celtic looking to me. Not really a problem, but just thought I'd say it.

I'm going to draw a water spirit djinn thingy, to see what it looks like, and abide by whatever everyone else is doing. Agreed on not-Parthia, although we needa new name then.

[Foodstamp]

I have updated the original post with the current working information. We need a name for the nation and we will be ready to move onto the next phase of the project.

[Valandil]

I did a 'Marid' in the last 30 mins based off of al-khazim, with the whirlwind totally redone in favour of spliced together water elemental bits, and the Djinn itself recoloured. Its quite pretty, and I might include it as a summon even if we decide against the Djinn theme.

[Endoperez]

As already said in this thread, Marid wasn't originally a water spirit. It was made that way in D&D, probably because "mare" and "marid" sound similar.


This mod is forming up quite nicely. Just in case I seem to be complaining all the time, I only speak up when I disagree with something. I like everything I haven't mentioned. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Maraxus]

I just read a bit in Wikipedia.

So, the Marid is a really powerful, evil Djinn, an Effrit is an evil Djinn that is not so powerful as a Marid but still very powerful.
Next lower is the Sila and least powerful the Ghul - and those are only the evil.

Dao has nothing at all to do with Djinns.

I think Djinns would make good unique summons, sadly 10089 is not modable. I'd say it could best be an air Summon with secondary-fire that has fire, air, some earth and sometimes water or astral magic (like 3/3/1/0/0 plus 200% random)


Other mythological creatures of this area are the giant bird Roc and the feary-like Peri.

[Agrajag]

Valandil said:
The axe armed dude is very celtic looking to me. Not really a problem, but just thought I'd say it.


Huh, so I see that the middle eastern theme has been officially decided upon.
Well, it doesn't really matter, I'll just explain the "celticness" away in the description, and newer guys will hopefuly be a better fit.

[Saulot]

@Agrajag:
First, I was of course considering everything that was posted beforehand and take no creative credit for anything. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Second, you don't seem very excited by the Middle Eastern theme. Is there something else that you had in mind? I mentioned a few other backdrops, but nobody said anything about them so I figured they were found uninteresting. This is of course, a community project (though to expedite certain matters, Foodstamp should have the final say), so nobody who is participating should feel marginalized.

@Modders:
I'm not sure how committed everyone is to their sprite work, and if any changes may be problematic. We're still relatively early in the process.

So, if change right now is not a problem, then keep in mind, Sicily is still a good idea. It's a fertile land and a trade center. It had Greek Colonization, Carthaginian colonization/War, Roman Conquest, Vandal Conquest, Ostrogothic Conquest, Byzantine Conquest, Tunisian/Berber Conquest, Norman control, Aragonian control, Independence, etc...

(In fact, due to my skimming of various locations for ideas, I have some material for some future low-fantasy mods, with the possibility of a second community mod after this one is done.)

In any case, we need to make a decision, and then stick with it. Ambiguity is the bane of moving forward. So let's not dwell upon this for more than let's say... 48 hours.

@Endoperez: Then I take your silence about Urdheim as a compliment http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Air Update: I've settled on the two recruitable units, and the two spells. As for the others (commanders/sacred/hero), I have a broad group that I'll be whittling away. (My units are not inspired by any particular group mentioned so far, and should work with some minor adjustments for any scenario we choose.)

While I tend to stick to an artistic style that is... not 100% in tune with Vanilla Dominions, for this mod, I'll most likely be working with modified Dom3 sprites, to not allow any element to stick out or detract from the whole of the mod.

[Valandil]

What is going on here. I feel I'm being willfully misunderstood.

@Agrajeg. The middle eastern theme has not been officially decided upon. In fact, I went out of my way to point this out in the post you quoted.

@Endoperez. I know about the Marid-water nonissue, as I said earlier, hence the quotaion marks around Marid. I don't exactly have a better name.

@Everyone. Sorry if I sound grumpy. I'm a bit sick right now, not that that excuses it.

[Agrajag]

@Agrajeg. The middle eastern theme has not been officially decided upon. In fact, I went out of my way to point this out in the post you quoted.


Ah, but your post came right before:

I have updated the original post with the current working information


Which leads to:

Middle Eastern Setting: Keep this in mind when creating the sprites for the units. Garb in particular should be appropriate to the time period and region.


Maybe I overreacted a bit.


Second, you don't seem very excited by the Middle Eastern theme.


Well, I'm pretty sure I already said I do not like the middle eastern theme.
In fact, I'd prefer pretty much every other theme http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif (as far as mythologies go.)
As you can see from my sprites, my thoughts go in the direction of nonespecific-European style, that isn't too different from most ordinary humans in Dominions.

[Foodstamp]

Happy Birthday Agrajag http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. BTW, the sprite you created can be explained away in other manners as well. He could be Goth http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif.

@Everyone

We need a new name for the nation. Submit your ideas and we will decide on the new name.

[lch]

Foodstamp said:
Happy Birthday Agrajag http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


+1

[Valandil]

Agreed. Happy birthday.
Apologies for grumping (is that a word.)


Hey, just occured to me I'm going to have to upload stuff eventually -should I just use winRAR to compress, or is there a specific format I should use?
Getting back to work now.

[Foodstamp]

I used to rar, now I normally zip stuff because I have had some unix users complain in the past. The mod sizes are so small that compression size does not matter. For the purposes of me getting the .dm/graphics for combining with the other modders works, you can use either.

[Saulot]

(Happy belated birthday Agrajag)

Since it seems nobody will come up with a name, here's one:

Acatharti Dominion (loosely translates to: Realm of the Impure / Rule of the Impure)

Also, since nobody else seems to have spoken up about the backdrop, and Agrajag (or anyone else) hasn't actually put forth an actual alternative (and no, generic european-style fantasy human won't cut it) we seem to be still passively leaning towards the middle-eastern backdrop. If anyone wants to speak up about it, this is a good time.

(While I still have choices to make about some units, and ideas which could take a week or two to flesh out, I can't actually proceed with the spritework until we make a concrete (and final) decision about this)

@Foodstamp:
Since each of the files we would send are so small anyway, I don't think using no compression at all should be a problem.

[llamabeast]

It's more often Windows users than Linux users who can't open rar files. Most distros come with unrar by default, whereas many Windows users have never even heard of WinRAR.

[Agrajag]

Thanks everyone http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif (for the birthday greetings, of course http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif)

Regarding compression: how about .7z?
Personally I don't really care which compression is used, since I can open every kind that I'm aware of.

Regarding theme: It's more that I really dislike the middle-eastern theme than that I prefer any other specific theme. If you want another backdrop suggestion then how about:
1) Norse/Germanic tribes. Yes, I'm aware that there are already several Nordic nations in the unmodded game, but the somewhat tribal tones fit nicely with the warring tribes theme, the warlike tones fit as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
2) Variety. There could be some difference in theme between the different elements. Perhaps part of the reason these groups didn't get along so well is that they come from different regions.
3) Greek and/or Roman. Go for an RTW like feel, where several theoretically friendly factions are aggressively competing with each other.
4) Overrun Rome. Rome after being destroyed by barbaric tribes, some cultural remnants remain from the old Rome, but mostly barbaric/chaotic/disorganized/tribal/adjective rule.

[llamabeast]

.zip! It's the only one everyone knows how to open.

Personally I think Middle Eastern would be awesome, and I'd look forward to playing it. Overrun Rome sounds interesting too.

[Maraxus]

We could make one point of the compas for every element ...

Like:
-From the weather-racked mountains in the north comes the Iron tribe praising the pretender's earth-aspect.
-From the hot deserts in the south comes the normadic fire tribe.
-From the open, barren plains in the east comes the wind cult.
-From the costs of the west comes the water-tribe.

Yes, I allready said, I'm a hemispheroist. The directions can be shuffled, if you prefer a hot north or something.

I just "researched" pre-roman Spain ... gods, they were unlucky basicly some guys that do bronze but then just get one cultural hit after another: Celts, Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Greeks - everybody migrated over the Iberian peninsula, even before Rome sucked them in.

[Foodstamp]

The Iberian theme would be fine with me. I just finished reading "The Story of Spain", "Comrades" and "The Quest for El Cid" for my Spanish history class, and I read "The Basque History of the World. The first book really goes into depth about pre-Roman, the Basque book touches on it only a little, but redeems itself by being filled with Basque folklore.

I eventually planned to do an Iberian themed nation going by the name "Ebro" with the following influences:

Lusitania, Basque, Carthaginian, Greek, Roman, and Tarsis.

Either theme is fine with me, and I am pretty sure no one has really dove into doing Middle Eastern graphics too much, so it is not too late to set a new course.

Keep in mind we are under no deadline here, so we do not need to set time limits for the various phases of the mod.

[Saulot]

I'm fine with Iberian theme, and am glad everyone so far is pleased with it. Any objections?

@llamabeast: If you want I'd be willing to work on a middle-eastern nation. Perhaps a joint effort on both our parts, or I could get to it eventually on my own. Something Elamite, Sumerian, Akkadian, Assyrian, Parthian, for Early Era maybe? (or something more Persian for middle era)

I'd also be interested in perhaps something Kush/Nubian or Proto-Ethiopian for Early Era.

Or middle era, Kushan or Satavahana or something else Indian that's not monkey based. We could definitely have some fun with katars and patas.

Or to go back to late era, possibly Turkish Jannisary armies.

(as you can tell, I'd be interested in almost anything, though I don't actually have the time to explore anything more than a small fraction of what interests me)

@Foodstamp:
I understand that there is no real deadline, but IMHO setting goals and having at least a bit of pressure helps.

[Maraxus]

Huh, did I propose that? Was somewhat unintentionally. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

My objection is, that there is no real suggestion yet. That should be at least minimally worked out before we decide this. Like: How does this fit together wit the 4-Elements theme???

You know, this is no history, we don't have to stick so striktly to something that really existed. Plus, we should in any case go so far away from earth-history, that this nation can be played on any map. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

But now that we are at it, I think the myth of Atlantis (the sunken city, not creatures that breath underwater) is based on that backround.

So, this idea followed, We'd have a metropolis of merchants that is lately invaded by:
- Refugies from Marverni, after they got pushed away by Ulm.
- People of an unknown nation that lost their land to the sea.
- Two groups from Arcoscephale: One following the flow of gold on the trade routes,
- and one coming with more military preasure to stop their trading influence.

Sadly, I see neither air nor fire in "Arcos merchants/military expeditionists". We could easily redirect this to C'tis, however, if you don't mind lizards. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Then the Native population could take the Air-Part, or something.


So, now is your part. I'd like to read counter-offers, modifications, clarifications, so that we can then vote on the best concept-design.

[Valandil]

Putting my work on this on hold until we have a definite theme, then. I can work with pretty much any restrictions, although if we deviate from humans I will have to redraw some stuff.

I'm not sure, did I originally propose the mid-eastern thing?

Has anyone any familiarity with the history of Alexandria? That is the most cosmopolitan ancient city I can think of.

[Maraxus]

Okay, I feel a bit like stepping on foodstamps toes, but now I sum up some concepts (Me likes project management).

-"Bazaar of Wonders":
A big 1001 Nights-flavor city, ruled by the King (King would be correct but Caliph/Sultan could sound okay and differentiate against the other nations) and 4 contestant guilds representing the diffrent elements.

-"Contesting Tribes":
4 long time seperate/contesting states (like early Greek city-states) each with an own rulership and elemental focus build a united city to praise their new common pretender.

-"Migrations":
A world-open, independant traiding city finds itself overflooded by 3 to 4 Early-Era nations that each happen to have a diffrent elemental focus by accident.

So, 24 hours for other settings. Suggestions must include a hint on it's flavor backround and how the 4 elements fit into this.
Beside this, ~48 hours to give your votes.

[Agrajag]

Well, shouldn't the voting period start after the suggestion period has ended? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Foodstamp]

There won't be a deadline period. Maraxus, this is the only point of your post I feel is even remotely stepping on anyones toes.

I really like the concepts you have submitted. My favorite is:

-"Contesting Tribes":
4 long time seperate/contesting states (like early Greek city-states) each with an own rulership and elemental focus build a united city to praise their new common pretender.

So that one gets my vote. I will update the first post to reflect the spot we are at in creation.

I would also suggest we stay away from real world themes as that has seemed to be the point of contention that has drug out the debates on the different ideas.

Vote on your favorite out of the ones listed above or submit your concept and we will move forward http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. Also, someone come up with a wicked cool name http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.

[Agrajag]

Well, if we're voting then my vote goes to "Contesting Tribes" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Name?
How about Yesod or Yesodot or Arba? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif
I actually like Arba a bit, call them "The Arbaean Tribes".
Call them "Tarn/Tarnean" after Tarn* the great craftsman of worlds http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
*- Adams http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Saulot]

Did you miss the name I suggested earlier, Foodstamp?

Air Update: I've started testing a few units with placeholder sprites for the time being. I've also started spritework on a few non-human units.

[Foodstamp]

Aye I saw it. Incase anyone else missed it, the name is "Acatharti Dominion". The name is alright, I don't like that it has the word "Dominion" in it.

Here is a current list to condense the names for voting:
Acatharti Dominion
Tarn
Yesod
Yesodot
Arba

If I have missed others, or you have new ideas, just add to the list http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Saulot]

I suppose you're right, dominion does sound better in a completely different context. (Perhaps a scifi one or something not involving dominions)

*ponders*

I suppose Confederacy, Commonwealth, Empire, Caliphate, Emirate, Sultanate etc. are all fine substitutes (they can also go before, such as X of Acartharti.

Or simply Acartharsis.
Or 'Unified Acartharsis'.
Or 'Greater Acartharsis'.

Also, a play on the Mongols, The Silver Horde.

Also, a play on ancient China, The Four Kingdoms. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Foodstamp]

It is not the context. The word is the title of the game, as well as one of the game features/mechanics, that is why I don't like the idea of it being used as part of the name of a nation as well.

Acatharti Dominion (Confederacy, Commonwealth, Empire, Caliphate, Emirate, Sultanate / or X of Acatharti)
Acartharsis.
'Unified Acartharsis'
'Greater Acartharsis'
Acatharti: The Silver Horde
Acatharti: The Four Kingdoms
Tarn
Yesod
Yesodot
Arba

[Endoperez]

If you name it Silver Horde, put in a multihero "Silver General", age 100/50 human with att/def/str 18, 20 hp and a bonus bite attack. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Sombre]

Riding a bog beast.

[Maraxus]

Okay, I'm definitly okay with Contesting Tribes.

For the name, I'd prefer something with more then 1 syllable. Acarthasis sounds good. Like Not-Carthage-ish.

[Foodstamp]

So "Acarthasis: Contesting Tribes"?

I like that name as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

For theme, maybe it can work like this...

The pretender has pulled the four tribes together. Even though the tribes are bound together by the will of the pretender, they still jockey for position politically and have a distaste for one another, bred by their worship of different elements. The exception being the priest(s)(I am going to create) who are ordained by the new order, so they are not subject to the politics of the precarious alliance.

So while there is a truce of sorts mandated by the pretender, the factions still play the game of political intrigue, trying to stab one another in the back. To top it off, they do not work well when mixed together in units, and would rather be in legions of their own ilk (cold auras, hot auras, vulnerability to opposite elements etc)

[Sombre]

Keep in mind that the AI will make a total mess if you give it units which can't really go together. It's bad enough with hydras and abysians already.

[Agrajag]

I don't really care about the name, as long as it's not too silly.
As for auras, I'm not sure I'm comfortable giving my units heat auras, they are still just humans after all.
Plus, what Sombre said http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Saulot]

I'm sorry, I made a spelling/typing mistake a while earlier and somehow it multiplied http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
A case of migrating and multiplying R(s)...

It was supposed to be Acatharsis, not Acarthasis. But whatever you all like is fine.

Anyway, I vote for Iberia. Foodstamp, you might consider throwing in some inquisitors for priests, and possibly combine one with stealth. It would tie in with the secret police, priestly power, rise of the Pretender over the various groups I discussed earlier. I also recommend a weak province defense of something between indep. light infantry and militia, but with different equipment, and slightly better morale and training, and no javelins. These are regular people, but due to nearly constant warfare are far more prepared for it than your average indep or militia, but by no means compare to the military power of the four groups.

[Saulot]

Sombre said:
Keep in mind that the AI will make a total mess if you give it units which can't really go together. It's bad enough with hydras and abysians already.



Even though I've grown rather fond of my latest masterpiece creations, as per Sombre's quixotic and somber need for utilitarian and functional armies, I suppose I'll have to replace both the drunken axe thrower and the flaming /threads/images/Graemlins/Grenade.gif juggler with something more to his liking (perhaps something cuddly and congenial? /threads/images/Graemlins/Teddy.gif).

[Valandil]

I support stuffed bears as troops, with panda summons.

I'm fine with the ideas I've seen presented, and will hopefully get enough respite from real life to finish the attack sprites by tuesday.

[Foodstamp]

If there are no objections, I am going to add the following to the original post:

Name: Acatharsis, Conflicting Tribes.

Background: The pretender has pulled the four tribes together. Even though the tribes are bound together by the will of the pretender, they still jockey for position politically and have a distaste for one another, bred by their worship of different elements. The exception being the priest(s)(I am going to create) who are ordained by the new order, so they are not subject to the politics of the precarious alliance.

[Agrajag]

Go ahead.
Now that we have something more solid I can resume my modmaking without fear.

[Foodstamp]

And we are on to phase 3 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. The fun part, graphics, units, oh my!

Goodluck guys, and if you need any help, inspiration, or anything else, post here!

[Valandil]

Yay. Now, I can start working again.

[Valandil]

everything except attack sprites done, but I'm off on vacation for 5 days. Will finish when I return.

[Foodstamp]

I am going to dive into the sprites for the priest this friday. By the end of the weekend I should have the scout done as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[lch]

So what ever happened to this community effort here? *gives a stern look*

[Aezeal]

New community effort: dominions 3000 come and help Ich!

*gives a stern look*