Djinnibad - Nomads and Genies

[Aezeal]

EA: nomads (desert dwelling) ruled by Djinni etc

general nomad stats
prefer heat 1
normals stats except for: attack skill, defense skill: 12, MR: 11)
wasteland survival
all infantry strat move 2 (cavalry strat move 3 (maybe camels only 2) and carpets as all flying creatures)

Troops
Nomad warrior (scimitar, chaff)
Nomad horse warrior (light cavalry, no lance, scimitar)
Nomad horse archer (ligth cavalry, short bow)
Nomad camel rider (medium cavalry; supply bonus 2; no lance, scimitar)
Whirling dervish warrior (2 attacks, medium infantry, high attack/defense skill)
Whirling dervish rider (2 attacks, medium cavalry, high attack/defense skill)
Whirling dervish warrior on flying carpet (2 attacks, medium infantry, high attack/defense skill, flying)

Roc rider: flying large creature relative high HP, strength etc, leaves roc when rider is killed

Sola sacred troop, magic being, flying
Jann sacred troop, magic being, ethereal; cap only

Commanders
Nomad scout; mounted scout, map move 3,
Nomad Wazir; 0 command, 2 S, researcher mainly (sage like)
Nomad Sheik; commander
Efriti sacred commander, magic being, F3E1, flying
Marid sacred commander, magic being, A3S1, flying
Efriti Sultan commander, magic being F3E3A1H1 ?100%FEAS; cap only, flying
Marid Grand-Wazir commander, magic being A3S3E1F1H2, 100% FEAS, 10% S, flying; cap only

weaknesses: only horse archers, weak priest, no heavy infantry or cavalry
Strength: strong magic, strong sacreds

To be continued

Note
maybe make the scout have a flying carpet.. if you have them scouting with it seems most logical (IMHO the troops with carpets will not be usefull, maybe I'll remove them even since hwo much of those carpets do we have anyway)

assassin saved for MA/LA
courtesan if needed probably LA, maybe MA
MA/LA no nomads any more
MA/LA not ruled by the magic beings anymore, maybe a few weaker amongst the commanders in MA, certainly not as sacred troops, maybe sacred summons though, the dervish could remain as sacreds then (their ancient and sacred "desert roots)
LA probably only as summons

no death or blood this age

PM I only wanted one of the sacred troops to be recruitable everywhere (the weakest I guess flying is weaker than etherealness right?)


http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/595719-genies.gif

[Endoperez]

Flying is useful but doesn't increase unit's killing power to much, but etherealness rules on almost anything, especially in the early game.

Flying raiding groups supported by raiding mages can be very powerful, but I guess that will be balanced by the nation's poor PD. I'd think that the PD having mostly unarmoured humans and some cavalry, while 20+ could have horse archers and camels.

It seems like the flying carpets could continue the theme of flying elite units in later eras, perhaps starting with multiple fliers/carpet like those Arcos chariot archers.

[Aezeal]

hmmm actaully the nomads are not THAT bad as troops with higher def and att.. but indeed low armour (I guess they'll have leathers and some sort of helmet.

If I use them as PD will that be too strong? or should I create even weaker troops.. it kinda goes against my idea that all males know how to handle their saif well since it's sort of a status symbol

[Aezeal]

I'm pretty sure I don't have the skills to makee the human troops sprites. If anyone would like to help.... all sprites will be appreciate also modification of above sprites will be appreciated.

For now I'd also like ideas on which sprites in the vanilla game resemble desert warriors most (or any of the units mentioned above)

[Wrana]

Is it needed to re-post my previous comments here? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
I might add that some genie races were actually VERY similar to Vans as we know and love them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Researcher commander is fine, but I would think about giving him Air as base (Early Age there probably should be less mystics and more elemental mages).
Also, scimitar is fine weapon as such, but probably useless on chaff. While for camel-riders it would be very difficult to actually use them (remember how tall the animal is? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ). I would use spears & light lances for infantry & cav, respectively. And for nomade race, light cavalry at least should be cheaper than normal.
As for magic carpets... I'd say they will become cheaper at later times, with big cities, and carpet-makers and mages dwelling in them... For early era it would probably be better to restrict flying to magic beings.
Roc rider.. I can't say I'm happy with this idea, but I can't also say it revolts me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif Maybe it'd be better to reserve it to later era?
And what do you mean by weak priest? That genie nobility are costly as hell?

[Aezeal]

yeah but not much good as priest really http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif, so very expensive as as priests

what is wrong with scimitars on troops.. my scimitars at least are just swords really..

I agree that on camels they might be less usefull.. no idea what the troops on camals actually used though.

If it was your comment on the wrist movement it has been noted and will be adjusted ... when I feel like doing the efriti again.

BTW magic is less available i later ages so I'd figure less carpets then..

[Aezeal]

can anyone tell me why this (I admit incomplete) mod doesnt'work yet.. plz explain so I get more insight in the modding stuff

[Endoperez]

I don't see any major mistakes there, and I can't test it ATM.

I have much more free time now, so I'll check out if I can whip some base unit sprites up. What would you like for looks? Would something similar to Nomads of Master of Magic be all right, should the clothes have spesific color, etc?

[Aezeal]

no need to test... I didn't scroll down in the list so I could start... there where a ****load of typo's however so it's not use downloading it either..

The master of magic look is as far as I remember quite nice.. I'm thinking white for nomad and black for the whirling dervish.

When I do a turn it quits and says.. no holiness (attached a new zip)

[Wrana]

Yes, I liked MoM Nomads, too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
On No Holyness - it's certainly so! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif see Marid Grand Wazir - he now gets Holy magic 2, but no holy attribute!
As for scimitars - they cost resources, man! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif (And from troopers point of view, they cost money which commoners can't really afford. Would YOU buy a sniper rifle for self defence - or settle for shotgun? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif The difference isn't exactly that, but close enough...) So you either have less troops without real effect on quality, or get some more of these - & in the case of cavalry, even better ones! Besides, as I've said, actual early Arabian armies did use spears & light lances and didn't use scimitars as main weapons (actually, iirc they got these weapons later from Persians... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ). Elite melee troops certainly will use some kind of sword & scimitars are, after all, thematic, so I say it's better to keep such to them (&, by the way, camel riders mostly used bows & sometimes light lances).
On wrist movement it wasn't me... but the picture actually seems familiar, I just can't quite place it... & whoever said this said a sensible thing in any case, I am just not ready to offer my own variant of picture... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Well, flying scouts are very useful beasts... & in early era I think Djinnibad will be quite powerful already. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
BTW, it's possibly better to change title of Efreet rulers, as Sultan title appeared later. They may also be Sheikh or Emir/Amir, or if we want to make them sound grander, Kalif (though the latter title has religious significance & so should probably be reserved for more powerful priests).
OT question - in my mod I currently found that the game just doesn't want to recognize 2 last descriptions. Could somebody say what can cause such effect? The mod itself is at (last post):
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/favlinker.php?Cat=&Entry=3685&F_Board=d3smm&Thread =594064&partnumber=&postmarker=

[Aezeal]

the swords are a status symbol.. so they all have one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif
It's not about arabian armies (I guess that would be MA) but about desert-dwellers with swords http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

No Sultan is after Emir as far as I read http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif and Emir has a more religeous tone to it (same as Kalif) as far as translation goes (wiki info only though)

[Wrana]

Pity. Arabian armies are actually much fun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Sultan is after Emir


Poor Emir! What is that sultan wants stalking him?! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif
And Sultan actually appeared as a military ruler who couldn't hope to become a Khalif, in the days after Khalifs' power waned (also the former were mostly Turks, but I don't remember whether the word itself is Turkish)... while Emirs & Sheikhs titles were used by chieftains of desert tribes in question http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif who performed religious duties also & later these became associated with aspect of religious teacher, though still used in their previous sense (so, now we have both Sheikhs who lead some tribe in Emirates (at least it was so at the time of Laurence of Aravia) and gurus of the same title. In game it would probably be better to differentiate between the two, just to be sure http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)

[Cerlin]

No human troops yet? the genies look interesting, and a bit powerful! :O

[DrPraetorious]

Ooh, folkloric jinn!

Remember that jinn:
1) Are made of "subtle" (smokeless) fire.
2) Eat dust, so don't need supplies.
3) Are both ethereal and have glamour. They probably shouldn't fly, though.
4) Some of them are specifically mounted.

In Arabic folklore, Solomon is generally said to have led an army of Jinn, and that's where most of their military attributes come from.

[Aezeal]

well I disagree with arab folklore then http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif if I make em all ethereal and have glamour it would be a lil overpowered http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

And appertantly the Koran says they do everything humans do including eating..

[Wrana]

Yeah, Koran says so & it's the most close (in time) source we have.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Also, I don't remember about ethereal. They could turn invisible, yes. But this is better translated as glamour... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif And flying ability is common at least in Persian folklore (sometimes it's flying mounts, though).
to Aezeal:
Did you look up scimitars in my Bogarus mod?

[DrPraetorious]

Someone collected a bunch of verses here: http://www.islamawareness.net/Jinn/jinn.html

Obviously you can ignore them if you want, and should, if game balance or coolness dictate.

I do think that the Djinn should be children of Catharsis, before he became Anthrax, in the same sense that Abysians are children of Rhuax. This would have made Catharsis the king of smokeless fire, before his fall - which dovetails to Iblis having been originally the coolest of the Djinn.

[Wrana]

To DrPRaetorius:
And you surely do see that there are nothing here about jinni-kind being ethereal, or equalling them with shaitan per se. And we can see that at least some of them can fly. Also, there are some of them who are of shaitan, but there are such from men, too! While there are also jinn who are of the True Faith - which I would equal to that there are both sacred & non-sacred untis of genie... And also it is said that some jinn fought on foot, while others mounted..
Shah-name, of course, reflects more of Persian folklore, which has some differences, & 1001 Nights bears also Persian influence. Still, we can use that too... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
As for children of Catharsis - possibly, but this restricts them to being of one kind - and something similar to elementals / earth gnomes at that! The version that they were created by previous Pantokrator which was voiced before is much more to my liking! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Aezeal]

Dr Preatorius that is not al together a bad idea to mingle it more with dominions lore.. I mean we can;t have them being made by Allah in this game anyway so... bbut Wrana is right you can hardly see the marid for example as family to antrax http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

The evil genies are the devils for muslims and they are already in the game.. this is a race of relatively good genies. Well at least in EA

[Aezeal]

Wranna no I just made "Saif" or scimitars as a bit better balanced swords.

[DrPraetorious]

The Marid may live in the oceans and seas (although I think that's a back-formation from the greek Marine, and nothing to do with the arabic meaning Rebellious), but they are definitely *composed* of smokeless fire, like all the djinn.

Abysians are all originally of one type but now come in several varietals, I don't see why Djinn couldn't be the same way.

[Endoperez]

I've started the preliminary work on sprites. I'll base them on the white-garbed main character of the DOS prince of persia. White shirt, long pants and dark skin - what else? Dark brown/black hair? Sleeves or not? I'll try different versions for swords and spears. Should the spears be straight or curved? Curved swords would be based on C'tis/Kailasa swords.

[Wrana]

To Endoperez:
What in Hell do you mean by curved spears??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif Glaives/naginatas have their own name and in any case shouldn't be in use by nomads who, after all, invented halberd (well, will invent in this case http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif )!
Also, I, for myself, would prefer long puffy sleeves, or, even better, actual long robes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Sleeveless jackets were in use, as I understand, only by Corsairs and similar types, who will appear only in MA (or even LA)... And iirc PoP1 also contained opponents with spears, etc.
To DrPraetorius:
As I've said, it's even closer to Vans/Thuatha or Yavana. Actually, Peri and similar types would probably be similar to the latter in possessing Awe...
To Aezeal:
As for Shaitan - such can be e.g. Blood summons. But I agree that they can appear at M/LA.

[Aezeal]

nomad
http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/1102966/2/istockphoto_1102966_nomad_in_timbuktu.jpg

http://dlibrary.acu.edu.au/research/theology/ejournal/aejt_9/images/Arab.jpg

http://www6.worldisround.com/photos/26/17/74_o.jpg

that sort of thing is what I was thinking about.. and the dervish similar but in black

Hey Wrana how about you start with MA graphs you could later take the nomads from this mod once endo is done.

You could do the things you said for MA

assassin, spear infantry (non-nomad) cavalry (non-nomad, medium/heavy)
etc etc

we could make all genies capital only, or just remove the marid Wazirs and Efriti Sultans are recruitables and make them summons. (and make more and more powerfull human mages, who now work together with the remaining Efriti and Marid, they'd still be sacred I'd guess)

[Aezeal]

PS endo you can do scimitars are you like of course I did them as you can see on my genies.

PS I'll show my sola too

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/596262-genies.gif

[Wrana]

On photos - fine, but the 3rd just gives some stupid banner. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/stupid.gif If I'll have free time while at work I may scan some images I have... actually you may see some at:
http://vendel.7thsea.ru/upload/MARKOV-PICS.rar
That's for now mostly Russian units for use of an artist mentioned previously, but some Arabs/Turks are there. Most pictures are from Markov's "History of the Cavalry", 1899 or somesuch.
On MA, etc. Well, it seems that Bogarus mod is working now & I will need some testing on it & graphics in any case. So I'll probably make some in a few days. I'm not through Shah-name still, though... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And don't expect fine graphics from me in any case. Stats & descriptions arew another matter.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif
And yes, at MA I like what they did with monkey people - namely move their celestial masters from recruitables to summons. So I plan something similar.

[Aezeal]

Iwas thinking of this as the base nomad warrior, actually the only nomad warrior only he'd come mounted too... not much variaty except for the dervish who would be similar, but with ambidexterity and 2 saif's and maybe a iron cap and full leathers oreven chain shirt.

#newmonster 2807
#spr1 ""
#spr2 ""
#name "Nomad warrior"
#descr "The nomadic inhabitants of the deserts have these warriors as first line of defense. Every male nomad has a sword, without sword no pride, and will defend what belongs to him if needed. Nomads day to day live is ruled by their own sheiks, who are adviced by nomad wazirs. Nomads consider all genies sacred, and above the human sheiks are the genies and their nobles who rule the nomad sheiks as a king rules his lords."
#hp 11
#size 2
#ressize 2
#prot 0
#mor 9
#mr 12
#enc 2
#str 10
#att 11
#def 12
#prec 10
#mapmove 2
#ap 14
#gcost 10
#rcost 0
#armor 1 -- Buckler
#armor 5 -- Leather Cuirass
#weapon 800 -- Scimitar
#wastesurvival
#end

[Aezeal]

PS I think ti would be nice to have a cross over with C'tis in MA and LA, since both races perfer heat +1.. maybe some lizards moved from their lands and settled in Djinnibad (disagreement with politics, prefer desert to marsh due to genetic variation)

and then have 1-2 lizard troops in the army, nothing special bu maybe use them as heavy infantry instead of humans.

[sector24]

On the scimitars thing, curved swords (sabres) were inherited from the Mongols. Generally, they were introduced in the East and moved West over time (on the backs of the invaders)

Tulwar - India - 13th century
Kilij - Turkey - 15th century
Shamshir - Persia - 16th century
Saif - Arabia - 16th century
Nimcha - Morocco - 17th century
Pulwar - Afghanistan - 19th century (!)

However, from a fantasy standpoint, scimitars completely fit the theme.

[Wrana]

To sector24:
I don't remember details now (& am not sure about Mongol origins), but it's possible that curved sword existed in the region earlier. After all, ancient Persians had extensive contact with Greeks who DID use such (though closer to yataghan design)!
Certainly, swords from Stambul museum attributed to Mohammed the Prophet have straight long blades, relatively narrow. With their current hilts they are closer to 18-19th century cavalry broadsword than to scimitars as we know them.
Also, sabres are different weapons, with straighter blades, different balance & form of hilt guard. Polish ones are really inherited from Tartar mercenaries' curved swords, but about Hungarian ones I'm not sure. They could bring them with themselves from steppes or adapt some design of Balcanian curved sword...
And yes, they are thematic, so they would appear sooner rather than later, but from my point of view, not on baseline infantry (mostly spears) or non-archer cavalry (light lances - though it's a pity that the game doesn't allow for usage of different weapons by the same units, for Persian Pehlevans (Knights) were attributed to ride into combat "bearing 14 kinds of weapons" as a rule! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ).
To Aezeal:
I don't think morale 9 is good idea, while cost is too low even if we take it into account (I still don't think that 11-12 stats are appropriate for commoners, m.b. just higher defense, which will get along nice with light encumbrance)... On description - if you would use word saif, it should be noted here somewhere that such is their name for curved sword. Or probably just use commonly known word scimitar. For commoner warrior of the period I would probably just use robes instead of body armor - thematic & cheap. Also, probably mounted troops should be cheaper than with others, in description it can be mentioned that they breed the best horses & so are able to field cavlry cheaper or somesuch.
On MA - I think nation name should become either Xanadu (though the poem about it actually refers to Khubilaj-khan, ruler of Mongolian dynasty, but it's known as a symbol of Eastern opulence...) or Khaleb (which was used in Persian tales as equivalent of "long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away"... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ), with a subttitle of "Flower of Desert" or "City of 1001 delights". LA should probably be named either Magrib (which was usually used as land of origins of black sorcerers) or something like Sultanapur. What anybody think? Military engine I would send about tomorrow, I still need to think up some details, but it should include both light nomadic lancers and heavier troops of Turkish likeness (maybe the latter shouldn't get fireres?). Hashishiin, sure. Maybe some kind of infantry will begin to use halberd at the time...

[Aezeal]

Maybe lower the stats but they are not that much stronger than a lot of other troops IMHO.. the morale 9 is for unorganised nomads attacking not in regiments usually, tey are just not phalanxes of organised troops. IMHO the armour must remain.. they surely didn't wear just robes in combat??

[DrPraetorious]

No, they did - try marching for three days in the desert even with relatively light armor. But the relationship between fatigue and heat scale is not well captured by the game engine, so you might want to put them in armour anyway.

[Aezeal]

they didn't have ANYTHING under the robes when preparing themself for combat? not even something like leather armor?

[DrPraetorious]

They may have had some leather under there, although I think it would've been a robe with (maybe) some kind of undergarments, and that's it.

This isn't universal, obviously - at various periods of history arab troops would have a variety of different types and styles of armor.

But for a desert marauder, the quantity of leather involved to actually provide any protection at all would've been a significant hindrance, and they mostly learned their warcraft while hunting or herding, an activity for which you generally would not wear armor.

[Wrana]

And also, "something like leather armor" is actually not so light & unencumbering after all. Especially in desert conditions, where metal armor may even be better (after all, it doesn't become drenched with sweat, turning heavier in the process)! As for various bits & pieces included under robes - well, under current rules, robes DO provide some protection, aren't they?
As for being undisciplined, you should note that the same Koran iirc states that "you shouldn't run back & forth but keep you place in ranks with you comrades" or something along these lines... it actually reminds me of military textbooks very much, providing treatises on discipline, marching order, feeding of troops & so forth... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif It certainly wasn't always listened to, but discipline is currently thought by many to be among the main reasons which allowed Arabs to beat up better armed contemporary Byzantine & Sassanid (Persian) troops (though Mongols were surely much better)...
And - what DO you think about names for MA/LA proposed?

[Aezeal]

you can tell me anything you like but not that leather armor is worse than metal in a desert.. you can reason all day long in any direction.. it's just NOT so (under metal armor you always have padding btw)

and I don't care what the koran says nomads are less disiplined than regular armies. btw there where nomads before the koran too.. and these are them.. they are from the LEGENDS at the time there could have been a koran

[Wrana]

Just try it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif We did. Padding, yes. AND light cloth covering to disperse direct sunrays, too. Did you know that Middle Asia nomadic people actually wear such padded clothes to protect themselves from heat? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Arabs, yes, rarely weared armor. And iirc, never leather one...
And, for glory of Lord, what regular armies do you mean in medieval setting?? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif Byzantines probably?
The legends argument, though, is valid. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
So do you mean that MA is then Mohammed's / 4 Pious Khalifs' time? I would prefer it to be somewhat later... Though we probably can mix & match them into something interesting...

[Sombre]

Parthians had plenty of metal armour underneath robes when they fought the Romans and that was some pretty harsh terrain they were in.

[Aezeal]

ok wrana I just meant they must have worn something extra when going to war instead of just the normal robes.. to me all extra armour that is not metal is leather http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Aezeal]

so far not much comments on my sprites.. that is nice (once.. I'll do the wrist thing) I also have a efriti and marid pretender (efriti is just an even larger and more decorated efriti sultan and the marid is abotu same as the wazir only with some blue aureool around the head..

[Wrana]

Aureol around a Pretender's head would be fine. After all, Persians considered it a sign of sacred power of rightful ruler.
As for their extra armor, it would probably be bits & pieces of mostly metal. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif They had finest metalworkers, after all, & I didn't hear the same about their leatherworkers... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
To Sombre:
Yeah, Parthians had heavy cavalry, & a pretty effective one at that. But much of riding before this would actually be commited was done by lighter troops who weared little armor. And I didn't said that Arabs should not have medium to heavy cavalry too, just that common nomads/raiders would wear mainly just robes & turbans (the latter word is iirc Turkish, but you get the idea). Elite warriors should probably get something like chain cuirass (scale armor was used more by Parthians/Persians, Turks & Mongols), but we'll see how it would look from a balance point of view.

[Aezeal]

well if you make me a turban and robes stat and copy past it in here I'll use it.. but make it robes with some defense.. and turbans should have decent defense too.. else I'll just give em leather/iron caps and say that is beneath the turbans http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Endoperez]

First version of a Djinnibad Nomad.

EDIT:

No hands/weapon yet, but I haven't decided how to do those yet. Pure MS Paint while waiting for work to really start, with Prince of Persia and screenshots of Dom units as reference. He's currently about 25 pixels high, so I think he might be few pixels higher than most humans. That will be fixed once I can play with this stuff back home and actually read the modding manual and test the unit.

[Wrana]

To Endoperez. Thanks, looks nice so far.
On robes & turbans:
Let's see (& thanks a lot to authors of Dominions Database!):
Robes have prot 2, w/ no defense & encumbrance penalties;
Imperial robes prot 3 & the same;
Leather cuirass has 6/0/0.
I'd name it either "Armored Robes" or "Robes and Armguards", or something similar. It my give either 5/0/0, or, for example, 4/1/0, actually giving defense bonus as robes conceal warrior's figure & forearm guards as well as free-swinging clothe can be used to parry enemy's attacks...
Resources should be probably 2 to include the bits & pieces of metal included, but can be 1, as leather cuirass is 1 res.
Turban is easier (as sharkskin cap gives 7/0/0 with res also 0):
#newarmor <>
#name “Turban”
#type 6
#prot 7
#def 0
#enc 0
#rcost 0
#end
We can even include daraq - a local shield type about similar to buckler... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
And iron cap beneath the turban should provide better protection, but THAT we'll include in MA. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Endoperez]

I don't remember how good protection Furs give, but it's probably worth checking out all armors with less than 6 or so protection. I don't think there are that many, but that'd give more things to compare with. Something between 3 and 6 would probably fit best. What would Daraq be? 1 more Parry and bit less protection than buckler, or identical?


I'd prefer something like "Desert garb" for the armor's name, because it's more poetic than "armored robes" or somesuch.

Protection 7 is perhaps a few points higher than I'd give the turban, but no one has ever bashed my head with or without protetive layer of cloth so I can't claim to be any kind of expert.

[Aezeal]

yeah desert garb would do nicely.

[Aezeal]

Furs are prot 7, and full leather is 8
so desert garb will be 7 too

leather cap is 6, leather hood is 5
Turban will be 6 too

Daraq is now the same as a buckler

[Wrana]

Desert garb is pobably the best solution. Thank you! And for daraq you are probably right, being as it was made of wicker-work with metal boss, it's surely easier to maneuver but less solid than usual kinds of buckler.
BTW, Aezeal, are your normal/light nomads stealthy? Also, they should probably often use javelins, as I refreshed today in my mind. Another idea that appeared re-reading that article is that as nomad warriors were often recruited for 1 campaign/battle only, it should be appropriate to make them disperse after battle which would allow Nomad player to quickly amass troops at need. But this is probably better reserved for MA...

[Aezeal]

yes conquest is hard when your whole army vanishes after the first battle http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Javelins could be an option for some sort of ranged attacks

Maybe make nomads with scimitars and nomads with scimitars and javelins (how much throwing options do pplz with javs usually get in vanilla?)

[Aezeal]

my nomad stats:


#newmonster 2807
#spr1 ""
#spr2 ""
#name "Nomad warrior"
#descr "The nomadic inhabitants of the deserts have these warriors as first line of defense. Every male nomad has a sword, without sword no pride, and will defend what belongs to him if needed. Nomads day to day live is ruled by their own sheiks, who are adviced by nomad wazirs. Nomads consider all genies sacred, and above the human sheiks are the genies and their nobles who rule the nomad sheiks as a king rules his lords."
#hp 11
#size 2
#ressize 2
#prot 0
#mor 9
#mr 12
#enc 2
#str 11
#att 10
#def 11
#prec 10
#mapmove 2
#ap 14
#gcost 10
#rcost 0
#armor "Daraq"
#armor "Turban"
#armor "Desert Garb"
#weapon 800 -- Scimitar
#wastesurvival
#end

reasoning: I see the nomads as people living of the land, a hard land. That way they are at bit between the usually city people and barbarians. This accounts for HP 11 and strength 11.
All Nomads learn to fight: def 11 (still thinking of going to 11 att too)
Less organisation: morale 9
high MR: just because this is a highly magical nation, it just rubs of on the nomads.

[Sombre]

Those nomads seem pretty superhuman. Stronger, tougher, more endurance, faster, more skilled, better magic res,.. not by much it's true but still, they're flat out better than your usual dom3 humans.

[Aezeal]

hmm are they faster, maybe that should be lower and I didn't know I did anything with endurance

what are the normal stats for those 2

for the rest well.. barbs are stronger too and morale is lower http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

They have to be stronger .. they only get low grade material, they live in the desert, they are no pampered city inhabiting dogs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Sombre]

Normal human enc is 3.

Normal human AP is 12.

[Aezeal]

would you consider the nomads as they are way to strong? aren't the barbs stronger too?

basicly: do you think they are too strong even considering the things why I made them a bit stronger?

[Sombre]

I don't know about their balance. That's a matter of context.

I just wondered if you meant them to be above par racially.

[Aezeal]

well as I said above, I consider them between "regular" city folk and barbarians context wise. I don't really have a clue about every stat in the game (but I do you that excellent spreadsheat so not I'll look it up.)
I'll give them AP 13, keep enc on 2 (as barbs) HP and strength are between regular humans and barbs as I wanted
the morale is lower (as barb) and MR is higher just cus I want it that way in this nation. (MA could even be lower again as genie influence wanes

PS I found THE perfect sprite for nomad wazirs: wind master sprites seem to wear exactly what the marid wazir wears http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif blueisch too which fits their astral magic thingie

PPS 2 astral isn't that a bit weakish in EA, maybe a random EFAN wouldn't be out of place

[Aezeal]

The roc is atm without rider, it is a great eagle on which I edited the color a bit (more reddish) the stats are the same, they seem to fit a large bird.

but.. how much gc should such a thingie be, it can't trample and has less HP, strength and prot than most elephants but higher MR and ATT/def... elephants are mostly strong through trample so considering the birdie dont have that I made them 50 gc now..

balanced enough?

PS why would you ever summon a great eagle for 3 air gems and wasting a mage turn (I seem to recall that is their price)

I'm doubting wether I should make it ridden (2 forms, first 11 HP, and seconshape this eagle form)

[Aezeal]

Since a lot of the good modders seem to look in here now and then I have another question: can you arrange in which order the troops appear on the recruit bar?

(I'd like nomads first, then my 2 sacreds and lastly the HUGE roc)

[Endoperez]

Yes; it's the order in which you list #addreccom and #addrecunit. Any units available from sites are always added last, though, so if the Roc isn't site-spesific and even one of the sacreds is, you can't do it.

[Aezeal]

ah so cap only units are always last..
hmm one of them is so I guess then I'll do nomads, roc, sacred

[Aezeal]

btw endo:
I really liked the nomad warrior, keep up the good work if you figure out how to give them a scimitar (you could copy the one the jann has?) I'll add them to my mod file.

Think you can do the cavalry too?

What do you think about the discussion about stats?

What do you think about the roc?

PS I attached what I have in sprites and .dm file so far so those interested or working with me on this can check it out if they want.

[Endoperez]

I'm going to see Bandar Log and EA Kailasa for the curved swords, and perhaps C'tis as well. It's not the sword (when I can compare to Dominions sprites) but where the hands are located that's giving me trouble. I think I'll go watch some youtube videos about Kalaripayattu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpCCjsVIjME&feature=related) and see if I can find something interesting. I think I'll give the commanders slightly different poses and fancier attack.

[Wrana]

On stats: I wouldn't give them higher sterngth - after all, classic barbarian unit is straight from Conan the Barbarian, & in this mythos desert nomads are wiry & fast, not particularly strong. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Better defense is fine & it's along these lines. AP 13 is probably okay, remembering "running back & forth" mentioned above (btw you were partly right, it's Mohammed who introduced phalanx-like formations here, though they probably seen something before serving as mercs during Persian-Byzantine wars). Higher MR can be explained by genie influence & the fact that genies were certainly not above mixing their blood with that of subject folk... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif BTW this could explaine higher stats of your "dervish" pretty well! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Though gold cost is probably going to be 11? Rukh - I would think it summon, but understand your reasoning on summonable eagle (I tried it once & never used since! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif) - for usefulness we can remember that Roc/Rukh was said to hunt elephantes & give it better attack against large creatures (not sure how it works, though) or something along these lines (& you surely can imagine what it would be to be near such birdie than it starts to beat wings, so trample isn't completely out of question... or swallow).
Also, on the desert garb - did you remember that 'furs' also give defense & encumbrance penalty which desert garb shouldn't do?
On .dm - probably genie nobility should get something richer than leather cuirass? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Even "magical lightweight armor" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif possibly?
on MA - for now it looks about this:
units: Nomad infantry, Nomad cavalry - both armored,etc. as above, probably stealthy (in this case, got "raiders" in their name);
Deilemite (mountainmen) infantry - light armor (see which), large shield, javelin, probably their authentic jupine (2-end spear http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) or axe/bardiche/halberd, better morale;
Corsairs - 2 scimitars, probably leather cuirass (these don't wear desert garb!), pillage bonus;
Faris (Arab noble cavalry) - standart noble stats boost, light lance, chain hauberk, probably thrown axe or javelin;
Ghulam cavalry - full scale, composite bow, scimitar or broadsword (they almost never used lances);
Nomad ahdas (militia) - purhased for 1 battle, so cheaper, stats are as normal;
Ghazi - sacred, probably both infantry & cavalry; probably Ghulam/Mamluk infantry;
slighly possible elephant or nafta throwers (both were used in the region, but relatively rare = if make, then capital only). Maybe add some more regular infantry such as citizen militia?
Commanders:
Nomad chieftain (stealthy, I think, but with Ld 40);
Corsair captain (?) - sailing, of course!;
Pekhlevan - noble with genie blood, so larger than human, much stronger, with some random(?) magic;
Imam (priest 2), Kadi (priest 2 with patrol bonus/decrease unrest), Hoji (priest 3, capital only?), possibly Khalif as a highest priest (4) with fighting ability & Ld 40; possibly capital-only Ismailite priest?
Amir or something as regular troops commander with Ld 80;
Star-gazer - Astral 2 mage, prevent bad events;
Elemental sorcerers of at least 2 kinds (normal and higher, need to think that up);
Thief of Baghdad/Xanadu - spy (unfortunately, engine doesn't allow him to be used to steal, e.g., opponent's gems http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif );
Hashishiine - names says all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Genies become summons in this era, except possibly some minor one...

[Aezeal]

makes for a very religious nation.

Personally I'd not use mountainmen, I'm sure they where there but it just makes the nation look like a rag tag of tribes with the corsairs and the nomads and genie offspring. I'd focus a bit more on only nomads (continuity through the era's) and the most general "arab" stuff (which seem to be the ghulam/faram/ghazi.

Maybe keep some genies (continuity) one of the troop as cap only and the regular efriti/marid as cap only too (--> you wanted elemental sorcerers?) the genie nobility would then be summons

I think you are making to many types of priests, just remove the imam and go with the Kadi (both priest 2 seems a bit much) and no level 4 priests (are there many recruitable lvl 4 priests in the game?)

Same on the cavalry btw nomad, ghulam, faris AND Ghazi... maybe one or two to much?
(on this point and the last, maybe try to find a separation for some to fit better in LA? (the most heavily armoured?))

The Pekhlevan sounds like a very good idea

No magic carpets?

All in all I think we mustn't get much more units in an era than regular nations (I see it a lot in Sombre's excellent warhammer nations, but IMHO you won't use most of them, just the most efficient, and having a few around just for flavour is nice but let's not overdo it) (my roc seems very useless really but I wanted one since I like it from Sinbad's legend http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif)

The star-gazer and his abilities seem nice but maybe call him Wazir too?

reply on my .dm: yes they probably should get a bit more than leathers indeed, but they don't wear that much and I didn't find anything in vanilla game that seemed suitable and I didn't want a high class armour. Something for the bracers, shoulderpads and belt etc... is there a name for such an outfit?

and your point on the desert garb: do you mean you think the desertgarb should get those penalties too?

[Sombre]

Do my warhammer nations have more troop types than regular dom3 ones?

[Aezeal]

well I look a lot at your skaven mod since I figure every command is in there. and it sure LOOKS like they have a ****load of troops. Same for your lizardmen plans.. though I must admit you seem to use national summons in insane amounts too.

I don't really play mod nations though so it's just an impression I got from the DM files and the threads

anyway even from most vanilla nations only half the troops are used on aturn to turn basis

[Endoperez]

First four nomad sprites attached. The buckler is just a blot, but the sword/pose is good. I prefer the alternative versions (lower ones on this preview image), but we need nomad commanders too so all will probably be used. Commanders will get different colors, jewel or feather on their turban, different sash (if that means cloth belt like I think it does) etc.

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/597002-nomad_preview_large.jpg

Anything I should improve? Anything you don't like? I'm serious here, I'm going to study drawing/animation and I have to get used to being bashed.

[Sombre]

Endo: I think you should use the bottom left one as the standard sprite and top right when attacking, personally. I don't go in for that much movement in the attack sprite because it doesn't actually show up much in the game,.. though ideally I'd do something like what you've done above.

Aezeal: Skaven does have a lot of content. Probably no more than say,.. Patala though. I don't think their recruit screen wraps round onto a second line, unlike some basegame nations. Basegame nations vary a lot though - compare Lanka or MA Tienchi with Vanheim for instance.

[Saulot]

Reminds me a bit of Prince of Persia games. So I suppose in that regards, nice job.

Bottom left and top right seem best.

As for troop variety and selection, some nations feel like right with fewer trooptypes, and some with more.

By the way, I'm looking forward to this mod eagerly.

[Aezeal]

Endo your sprites, you can say what they should become.

I'll use the 2 Sombre liked best as the base unit sprites now.
I agree the commander should have a jewel or feather in the turban (I did that with my efriti) and I can't wait till you make it and the others http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Saulot]

Also, be sure to space the sprites so the attack animation is not centered, but farther forward, to give the effect of movement.

[Endoperez]

Saulot said:
Also, be sure to space the sprites so the attack animation is not centered, but farther forward, to give the effect of movement.



The guys leap forward and back off quickly, as unarmoured agile combatants should.

Thanks for all the comments. I might touch the turban a bit, so that it's easier to tell when turban ends and a nomad starts when there's lots of them. I might also lighten the blade a bit.

So... I think I'll continue with the humans, at least for now.

I really like the wielder of two swords in your original post, aezeal. Is that the Dervish, assassin/hashashin or something else?

Humans:
Nomad warrior (scimitar)
Nomad horse warrior (light cavalry, scimitar)
Nomad horse archer (ligth cavalry, short bow)
Nomad camel rider (medium cavalry; scimitar)
Whirling dervish warrior (2 attacks)
Whirling dervish rider
Nomad scout; mounted scout, map move 3,
Nomad Sheik; commander

Of these: horse-riders are easy. My avatar is a Horse Brother sans horse, and it's much easier the other way round.

Should camel riders have visible armor, or is that under their robes? Other than that, I expect I'll have lots of trouble with the camel.

What weapons do mounted Dervishes use? Two scimitars?

Should the mounted scout have special look? I could try to do some sort of cloth-covered face without turban, or I could give him darker color scheme (probably similar to dervishes).

Should Sheik be mounted? Horse or camel? It'd be easy to do non-mounted nomad commander, but it should be just as easy to do mounted one once I get the respective unit sprites done.

The human Wazir you found already.

[Aezeal]

The wielder of 2 swords would be the dervish and their mounted version might best have 2 scimitars too, maybe a spear (does that get a sort of lance bonus but lower?)

on the rest of the questions: do what you feel is best, you are the artist http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

and don't forget a nomad on a flying carpet, eitehr as infantry or as scout, I'll use it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

the sheik might be best as a mounted character on a horse.

[Aezeal]

#newmonster 2806
#spr1 "Nomads and genies/2806_Nomad_Wazir_1.tga"
#spr2 "Nomads and genies/2806_Nomad_Wazir_2.tga"
#name "Nomad Wazir"
#descr "The Wazir are the advisers and magicians of the nomad sheiks. They mostly divine their wise advices from the stars but also have knowledge in other paths which they learned from their genie overlords."
#hp 10
#size 2
#ressize 2
#prot 0
#mor 12
#mr 14
#enc 3
#str 10
#att 9
#def 9
#prec 10
#mapmove 2
#ap 10
#gcost 100
#rcost 1
#armor "Desert Garb"
#weapon 7 -- Quarterstaff
#poorleader
#nomagicleader
#noundeadleader
#itemslots 15494 -- two hands, one head, one body, one feet, two misc
#magicskill 4 2
#custommagic 9600 50
#fireres 20
#wastesurvival
#end
#end



#addreccom 2806


why does it show up as a trooper and not as commander?

[Aezeal]

#newmonster 2806
#spr1 "Nomads and genies/2806_Nomad_Wazir_1.tga"
#spr2 "Nomads and genies/2806_Nomad_Wazir_2.tga"
#name "Nomad Wazir"
#descr "The Wazir are the advisers and magicians of the nomad sheiks. They mostly divine their wise advices from the stars but also have knowledge in other paths which they learned from their genie overlords."
#hp 10
#size 2
#ressize 2
#prot 0
#mor 12
#mr 14
#enc 3
#str 10
#att 9
#def 9
#prec 10
#mapmove 2
#ap 10
#gcost 100
#rcost 1
#armor "Desert Garb"
#weapon 7 -- Quarterstaff
#poorleader
#nomagicleader
#noundeadleader
#itemslots 15494 -- two hands, one head, one body, one feet, two misc
#magicskill 4 2
#custommagic 9600 50
#fireres 20
#wastesurvival
#end
#end



#addreccom 2806


why does it show up as a trooper and not as commander?

[Wrana]

To Aezeal:

makes for a very religious nation.


Yes, as I've said previously I'm partial to early Islamic conquests. And they WERE deeply religious! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Of course, there should be only one Khalif a time, however, but I don't know how to make it so (like special Prophets of some nations?); also, somewhat later Cordoba rulers iirc also proclaimed themselves Khalifs while secular power of Khalifs waned to be replaced with military commanders & secular rulers, such as later Sultans.

Personally I'd not use mountainmen, I'm sure they where there but it just makes the nation look like a rag tag of tribes with the corsairs and the nomads and genie offspring. I'd focus a bit more on only nomads (continuity through the era's) and the most general "arab" stuff (which seem to be the ghulam/faram/ghazi.


And I didn't even include Kurds! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif Probably I will remove Deilemites as well, particularly as I'm not sure how to better represent them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Maybe keep some genies (continuity) one of the troop as cap only and the regular efriti/marid as cap only too (--> you wanted elemental sorcerers?) the genie nobility would then be summons


Probably yes, as cap only. We'll need to see how this will play out... And probably add to summons some that calls several genie warriors at once?
Also, I've found in Shah-name a fine event - a daw in onagre's shape who ravaged provinces & lured into traps heroes who tried to capture it! This should probably be a sending spell, either similar to existing Boar or of assassination type... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I think you are making to many types of priests, just remove the imam and go with the Kadi (both priest 2 seems a bit much) and no level 4 priests (are there many recruitable lvl 4 priests in the game?)


Well, Machaka has some specialized priests with different non-magical abilities. Level 4 priests are read as "Priests: strong" in nation descriptions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif, though I agree they are rare. Will need to think it up, particularly from the point of view of the balancedness of the whole faction... Possibly Kadi will have to become lesser priest than Imam, though...

Same on the cavalry btw nomad, ghulam, faris AND Ghazi... maybe one or two to much?
(on this point and the last, maybe try to find a separation for some to fit better in LA? (the most heavily armoured?))


Well, they will, I hope, have different niche uses.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif LA will include more infantry & probably no faris (they still wouldn't get real heavy lancers, though).

No magic carpets?


Well, YOU were against them in MA! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif Also, they are probably most thematic for elemental mages. Pekhlevan will certainly ride noble "elephant-like" steeds, and combat-oriented genie nobles will have magical steeds of their own. As for Scout on flying carpet - we'll see how it will look from the balance point of view also. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

All in all I think we mustn't get much more units in an era than regular nations (I see it a lot in Sombre's excellent warhammer nations, but IMHO you won't use most of them, just the most efficient, and having a few around just for flavour is nice but let's not overdo it)


Well, as was already said there are some factions with lots of troops types (early Ermor/later Pythium comes to mind, as well as MA Ulm...). And it's not as we gonna to force players to use all of them! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif As for Warhammer factions - all their troops aren't often used in tabletop games, too, but in particular circumstances they may shine. And we here can use MORE options to make them different & have various uses then WH players can, especially as they can have uses beyond battlefield per se. I see no problem in this (unless Endoperez will tire from making sprites, that is http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ).

The star-gazer and his abilities seem nice but maybe call him Wazir too?


Quite possibly. I don't remember their authentic name. In Persia they were called Mobed & were different from Wazir. No big deal in any case, we can change this anytime.

reply on my .dm: yes they probably should get a bit more than leathers indeed, but they don't wear that much and I didn't find anything in vanilla game that seemed suitable and I didn't want a high class armour. Something for the bracers, shoulderpads and belt etc... is there a name for such an outfit?


Well, we can even call up bracers as such... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif It probably would work but needs to be tried. And if we'll call up "Robes of Sorceress", it should give it's protection without other item's powers. Another probability is to appropriate Skull Neclace. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Current modding manual doesn't include probability for making Miscellanous armor, but I don't know whether such attempt will work or not. But good old things most probably would.

and your point on the desert garb: do you mean you think the desertgarb should get those penalties too?


NO! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I mean that it certainly shouldn't - that's the whole point of it. But to keep balance it most probably should give worse Prot than furs, which are, after all, quite bulky. 7 would be too good without penalties & not thematic with them.
As for commander read as trooper - I don't see. Probably some misprint, try to use Find for whether this number appears another time.
To Endoperez:
Nomad sprites - I better like the lower pair but variant with attack sprite from higher one is also fine.
The sheikh should be mounted, precisely!
Mounted scout should get greyish garb & yes, covered face would be nice touch.
On wielder of 2 scimitars - there should be also version without long robes, for future Corsair! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Camel riders shouldn't have visible armor, they are either mostly caravaneers who have some weapons for self-defense or lighter troops (I'll try to find out whether there were heavier troops on camels, but for now it seems the fantasy of Medieval2's authors...).
And thank you again. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Aezeal]

no more 2806 found.. I'm pretty sure I must be missing some vital line that makes that troop a commander... no clue what though

[Wrana]

IIRC it should be just addreccom line. At least in my Bogarus splitting this worked OK. Are you using any other mods at the time? They may theoretically include the same number...

[Sombre]

Uh,.. what basegame level 4 priests are you referring to?

Strong priests means holy 3 priests are recruitable.

[Aezeal]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif thought so

on the wazir.. no other mods with new nations I just don't get it.

Can anyone else read back to last page and see what is wrong with my Nomad Wazir?
--> I don't know what changed but now the wazir is where he is supposed to be.. all is well.

The nation is getting a long nicely still need more troops but endo does great work on the nomads

[Wrana]

Yeah, got confused by Dom2 reminisciences... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif
So now we get 2 priest variants w/ Holy 3 in MA... Maybe make Khalif a multyhero?
As for Wazir confusion - I had self-correcting error too, though of different kind... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Aezeal]

I'd just keep the kalif but remove the other

[Wrana]

There are probably some bugs in it. And I didn't finish nation itself. So just count it as bump for now... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
For now I have several ideas on magic sites in capital:
City of Xanadu itself;
Grand Bazaar (provides gold, among other things);
Palace of Air & Fire to recruit genies as Aezeal offered;
Temple of the Stone (read: Kaaba);
Mountain of the Eagle's Nest (read: Alamut).
Of course, this is too much & also I don't want too much commanders to be capital-only. Any thoughts on this?
To Aezeal: Current version quite possibly duplicates some unit numbers with your early era. As I want this to be at the end a single mod with all 3 eras included I'd like to know which monster numbers you're going to use up (the same goes for weapons, etc.) to reserve them in future versions.

[Aezeal]

lol no idea which numbers I will use

DL the mod as it is now and just stay like 10 higher in each?

[Aezeal]

#newweapon 802
#name "Pekhlevan's Mace"
#dmg 12
#att 2
#def 1
#len 2
#rcost 10
#armorpiercing
#magic
#aoe 2
#sound 11
#end

ehm AP AOE 2 damage... for a recruitable... nonono... that is a 10-15 gem magic item you are giving away for free, high damage too.

As said instead of sorcerors I'd just use the marid and efriti

adn the turbaned helm seems to have to high protection

[Wrana]

As I've seen, you've used numbers 20 & 21 for Pretenders (though there was about 15 numbers between these & highest previous number). So, next version I'd probably redo monster numbers to start from 30-31, eh? BTW, I made nation number +1, planning +2 for LA.

[Aezeal]

hmm btw I think you are already doign to much in this nation.. maybe spread some of this out over LA too?

I'd try to find some special things and keep em (flying carpet pplz, Roc's, efriti).. I mean the nation must bring something new.. and a nation with a lot medium infantry and cavalry ... is not so special..

[Wrana]

that is a 10-15 gem magic item you are giving away for free, high damage too.


You could say I just got tired of magic items doing nothing.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif It's not exactly free as unit itself costs money & upkeep. Probably it should cost more - I didn't exactly finished this as you see. What weapon such unit should have in your opinion, BTW? As I've said these guys were very well armed & I don't exactly know how to translate this into Dominions terms. What I don't wan to see in them is some double-blade variant (or, God forbid, double morningstars of Abyssian sacred! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif). Also, as they didn't have heavy lances of later European knights nor saddles for such, I don't want lance to be included as is (and light lance is currently not 1-strike weapon). The minimum thet they should have is something like "Iron Cudgel" of Bandar in one hand... and something like this HAS area effect! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

As said instead of sorcerors I'd just use the marid and efriti


No, in MA human sorcerers should be the rule, with mariti & efreets as summons. I just don't know currently how to better organize such sorcerers. What I'm almost sure of is that stargazers (I'll find proper name for them, it was somewhere! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) should be different from elementalists. There were also phylosophers such as Ibn-Sinna (who, btw, is probably going to be another national hero http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ), but I don't know at the moment whether it would be too much or not. And I don't know what paths they would have if present...

adn the turbaned helm seems to have to high protection


It's Iron Cup +1 ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Including resources, etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

hmm btw I think you are already doign to much in this nation.. maybe spread some of this out over LA too?


Some of this would be in LA, too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And it's far easier to drop something than to do it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif For now I like what I have, but after some reflection (& trial games) something would probably be dropped. Mamluk infantry, maybe - I'm not sure about their actual appearance & their usability in MA as well...

I'd try to find some special things and keep em (flying carpet pplz, Roc's, efriti).. I mean the nation must bring something new.. and a nation with a lot medium infantry and cavalry ... is not so special..


Well, Rocs & genie will remain as summons in any case. But I don't see Rocs as recruited monsters in MA.. Machaka, you say? But it's different case with their African mythos while medieval Arab/Persian faction should be a civilized nation whose strength lies in normal troops, human mages, fanatical holy warriors AND ONLY AFTER THAT - unique summons. I agree that in MA they may have lesser genies as capital-only recruitables... Also, some genies, at least, may become better armed (did you include genie cavalry in early era, btw?).
As for special - did you notice Nomads militia recruited for 1 fight only? The ability to quickly amass good troops in emergency is special enough for me. And ghazi are certainly not Vans, but with proper blessing can give good account of themselves as I see.
And if you have ideas other than retaining genies as mainstay troops in MA - then I'm open for them. I thought on replacing camels riders with some reptiles, for example, but am not sure this would be good idea...
What of summons? As I see it, they should be roughly based on what magic genie in question possesses. So Efreet should be Air/Fire summons, Marid Air/Astral... Daw/Shaitan should probably be Death or Blood summons. Peri - probably Astral/Fire or just Fire. Ghul will be summoned by Death spell, of course. Sola - just Fire? Jahn - just Air or Astral? Djinn as such is present in the game (I'm not sure we should this unique being as guidance, but if we include it, he should probably be summoned by Air/Fire spell).. and as I'd said we can make lesser ones. I'll also look into what other characteristic spells could be (castle-in-one-night is already included, though currently have not full stats).

[Sombre]

If you have aoe2 on a weapon remember it can hit the unit using it. Or it could just kill 6 enemies in one swing.

That weapon looks crazy to me, but I didn't look at the unit carrying it.

[Wrana]

I remember it. I even used something similar for Night Goblin Fanatics in my project of a Warhammer mod.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
And in case of Pekhlevans - there is exactly one case in Shah-name where young knight had hit his own horse & was subsequently taken alive... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
BTW, it alco contains 2 cases of knightly heroes who also performed their own astrological calculations, one of these being father of Rustam, the main hero of the epic... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Endoperez]

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/598050-twoswords_preview.jpg


I've done first version of the dervish, and have looked around at sword-wielding cavalry. I'll probably model the pose after Tien Chi/Jomon cavalry leaders holding sword up. I'm not sure if I'll draw the sword myself or edit something like EA C'tis lizard chariots' huge falchion.

I still don't have any ideas about drawing Dervish cavalry with two swords. Would it be possible to give some less-used cavalry lances or light lances? Dervish cavalry with lance/sword/hoof would still work well as shock troops. I'd also like to give the mounted scouts a light lance.

I'm much more confident about the camel problem now that I realized I can model it after 'wasteland survival' symbol.

[Aezeal]

No, in MA human sorcerers should be the rule, with mariti & efreets as summons. AND Well, Rocs & genie will remain as summons in any case. But I don't see Rocs as recruited monsters in MA.. Machaka, you say? But it's different case with their African mythos while medieval Arab/Persian faction should be a civilized nation whose strength lies in normal troops, human mages, fanatical holy warriors AND ONLY AFTER THAT - unique summons.--> I would do that for late age

In MA I would jsut fade the most powerfull out and keep the weaker ones instead of the sorcs. Then In LA they all become summons

basicly I think all your MA nation should be LA..

[Wrana]

No, LA nation should be based on Turkish Empire - you know, Janissaries, etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Also, assassins will become non-sacreds. They will most probably get banners too.
As for sorcerers of MA & LA - I'm not sure for now, but I think that we should have SOME kind of strong (read: fireball-flinging) sorcerers in that faction. While at LA they should probably be weaker & with less flamboyant effects...
BTW, what do you see in MA faction except weaker clone of EA?

[Aezeal]

MA more magic, less armour, less priest power

and thus more genies

LA no genies, more priests, more and better armed infantry and cavalry

[Wrana]

MORE genies in MA??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I thought it was EA that's genie -based...
Also, Turkish-based LA should probably get less priests, but, yes, better armed & armored troops. Think regular troops instead of religiously-driven militia (highly-trained militia, though).
Another thing - from memoires of Ousama ibn Mounkidh I see that ismailites (hashishiin) mostly used daggers, though they used swords, too. Probably should get sword&(poison)dagger so.
And I will probably move Corsairs into late era.
Probably LA magic should also include Death/Blood?
Another question to all interested - medieval Persian army often included elephants and sometimes nafta throwers. Should they be used (and in what era)?

[Aezeal]

I meant more than in LA

ENDO, I somehow missed your pics last time I looked, those dervish are GREAT!! YOu ahve a good feel for this nation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Wrana]

Well, that I thought obvious. And in any case I asked how you would define MA in relation to EA (and said that "the same in less concentration" wouldn't be cool). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
On pics - yeah, fine. Except for left-handed scimitar in attack position which seems somewhat wrong for me. Could you do something with it, Camrade, please? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Endoperez]

Wrana said:
On pics - yeah, fine. Except for left-handed scimitar in attack position which seems somewhat wrong for me. Could you do something with it, Camrade, please? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



I tried foreshortening it more, but it's hard with such tiny sprites. I think I'll change the legs' position in the attack sprite instead, so that the left knee points more back in the attack pose. Well, not straigth back, but more so than it currently does.

[Wrana]

Possibly either make left arm less straight or somewhat change position? E.g., make it on "hanging guard" - along the body? Or make "trace" from previous movement - this would probably look stylish on 2-scimitar wielder?

[Endoperez]

Wrana said:
Possibly either make left arm less straight or somewhat change position? E.g., make it on "hanging guard" - along the body? Or make "trace" from previous movement - this would probably look stylish on 2-scimitar wielder?



I don't expect to be able to make something totally different from all the other sprites "stylish". It'd stand out, and that wouldn't be good.

I tried few variations with the arm and the blade, including the direction of the blade. The result there is the best I got. I tried to make it seem that the left sword is past the actual swing, but I couldn't do proper foreshortening so it ended up looking less like what I wanted.

[Aezeal]

Endo.. just so you know.. all improvement are of course greatly appreciated.. but I loved all units you made already http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

I wouldn't blame you if you continued on other sprites (preverably for this mod) that you want to work on http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Aezeal]

ps can you attach the files for the devish?

[Endoperez]

I'll try to do some mounted sprites before Monday.

I'll probably leave the retouching for when I make the commander sprites from nomads. I'll probably have to adjust the space between the normal and attack poses of the dervish, currently the swords switch places so totally that it might make someone think they move just by a few pixels, instead of the large movement I tried to make.

Dervish files attached.

[Aezeal]

why are the files relatively large? (not that it really matters) but when looking at all other files I have in that map which are all just 2-5 Kb except the huge roc which is 10 and 7 kb, your nomads are all 13 Kb.

[Aezeal]

The Dervish are a tribe of nomads that live deep in the desert, they are raiders and thus have only live to fight and do not "waste" time herding animals or learning crafts. Every male dervish wields two scimitars and is highly skilled in the two-handed fighting techniques. Dervish are proud and brave, they have learned they are the greatest fighters and that their swordsmanship can overcome everything and thus are not likely to rout in battle."

my dervish description so far

Maybe the hashashins should be decendants from this tribe (I know they really wheren't but now they are) I sort of had that fremen tribe from the dune series in mind which turns up in one of the later books.

[Aezeal]

#newmonster 2809
#spr1 "Nomads and genies/2809_dervish_1.tga"
#spr2 "Nomads and genies/2809_dervish_2.tga"
#name "Whirling Dervish"
#descr "The Dervish are a tribe of nomads that live deep in the desert, they are raiders and thus have only live to fight and do not 'waste' time herding animals or learning crafts. Every male dervish wields two scimitars and is highly skilled in the two-handed fighting techniques. Dervish are proud and brave, they have learned they are the greatest fighters and that their swordsmanship can overcome everything and thus are not likely to rout in battle."
#hp 13
#size 2
#ressize 2
#prot 0
#mor 15
#mr 12
#enc 2
#str 12
#att 14
#def 14
#prec 12
#mapmove 2
#ap 15
#gcost 13
#rcost 0
#armor "Dervish Turban"
#armor "Dervish Desert Garb"
#weapon 800 -- Scimitar
#weapon 800 -- Scimitar
#wastesurvival
#pillagebonus 1
#ambidextrous 4
#stealthy 0
#end


#newmonster 2810
#spr1 "Nomads and genies/2809_dervish_1.tga"
#spr2 "Nomads and genies/2809_dervish_2.tga"
#name "Whirling Dervish"
#descr "The Dervish are a tribe of nomads that live deep in the desert, they are raiders and thus have only live to fight and do not 'waste' time herding animals or learning crafts. Every male dervish wields two scimitars and is highly skilled in the two-handed fighting techniques. Dervish are proud and brave, they have learned they are the greatest fighters and that their swordsmanship can overcome everything and thus are not likely to rout in battle. The dervish raiders are usually led by their own sheiks who are always the most proficient warriors fo the tribe."
#hp 18
#size 2
#ressize 2
#prot 0
#mor 20
#mr 12
#enc 2
#str 13
#att 16
#def 16
#prec 13
#mapmove 2
#ap 15
#gcost 50
#rcost 0
#armor "Dervish Turban"
#armor "Dervish Desert Garb"
#weapon 800 -- Scimitar
#weapon 800 -- Scimitar
#wastesurvival
#pillagebonus 5
#ambidextrous 8
#stealthy 5
#okleader
#poormagicleader
#noundeadleader
#end

The stats for dervish and dervish sheik
(so far using the same pic for both)

[Wrana]

I would make your Dervish a mixed blood offspring from genies and humans - this would explain their superhuman abilities.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
As for Arakis Freemen they were much more than pure raiders... Actually they were very technologically advanced - something like modern Iran, probably, which even has a special holyday devoted to nuclear science and technology... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
To Endoperez:
Thanks, I appreciate your workings. It's just that this one position looks wrong to me. I'll probably try to make alternative one based on this if I'll have time tomorrow. It'll probably look bad but could give you an idea...

[Aezeal]

no I meant the fremen who lived deep in the desert and where muádib hid during the reign of his sister.. of course also technologically advanced but the story was something of being outcast for some reason or anothers

[Endoperez]

Personally, I don't think the Whirling Dervish descriptions are as well written as your posts on this forum. They're too formulaic or complex or something; IMO they could be a bit more compact:

"Dervish are proud and brave, they have learned they are the greatest fighters and that their swordsmanship can overcome everything and thus are not likely to rout in battle. The dervish raiders are usually led by their own sheiks who are always the most proficient warriors fo the tribe."

"Dervish are proud and brave, and their faith in their great swordmanship makes them less likely to rout in battle. The dervish raiders are usually led by their own sheiks, chosen from the ranks of their most proficient warriors."

Like Wrana, I'd also like to have a bit more mystical background to them, since their stats are so clearly superhuman. Mixing the dervish background with genie worship would be good, IMO. Something like strongest children of the nomad tribes being sent to the desert where the Dervish life, where they fight against illusions and monsters summoned by genies. Also, why do dervish have LOWER encumberance than common nomads? If anything, they should fatigue more quickly, especially because all nomads seem to run everywhere all the time (base ap 15)!

To Wrana:
I'd like to see the pose you meant, thanks for the effort.

[Aezeal]

are their stats that superhuman? We could go for that mystical genie crossbreeding background.. but I really didn't intend it that superhuman.

ps if you run all the time you get used to it right.. so why higher enc?

[Aezeal]

I lowered the AP to 13.. the rest of their stats are just like barbs except the weaponskills so not that superhuman imho..
I'm doubting the gold cost of everything in the nation a bit.. barbs are 13 gc and these 13 gc dervish are obviously better.. but.. like a sacred jag warrior is MUCH better for it's coin, being sacred and having 2 forms.

[Aezeal]

Endo about the descriptions.. You'll just have to look at them all once we've got a somewhat final version and then you can just change everything you want and send it back to me for the upload.

And one thing... how can we think of doing a desert nation and NOT use sandworms (and/or sandworm riders)? It's almost criminal!

a huge mouth in the ground (think: dune 2 game), flying could pose as burrowing and trample as swallowing....

please give this serious thought because it will be very hard for me to ignore this.

IT would be a high level summon with few item slots (in case of GoR) huge HP, regen, weakness to shock, immunity to heat. average MR. Largest size the game allows (can you go above 6)?, with largest sprites.

[Endoperez]

Aezeal said:
are their stats that superhuman? We could go for that mystical genie crossbreeding background.. but I really didn't intend it that superhuman.

ps if you run all the time you get used to it right.. so why higher enc?



The Dervish are like EA Tien Chi Warriors of the Five Elements in Spring (when they have 150% their normal hp) and with one star of experience, and with better weapons. Not sacred and without the resistances, of course, but similar. (EDIT: only the sheiks have 18 hps, my mistake).

Machakan warriors have base encumberance 2, almost all other humans have 3.
MA Eriu Fir Bolg have 13 hp, str 11, prec 12 and magres 13.
MA Pythium Emerald Guards have att 13, def 12, hp 13 str 12

LA Jomon's Yamabushi are the best human fighters I could find:
hp 11, str 11, att 14, def 13, mor 11, magres 12, prec 11, base move 2/12. Sacred, capital-only.

This still puts the dervish in as better than all these combined... With Arrow Fend, you can't even use bows to kill them. This is EA, though, and they die to magic just like everything else. It's just that they shouldn't be too easy to rush with, so don't make them too cheap.

[Aezeal]

all non-city pplz have enc 2.. barbs, lion tribe warriors etc

a knight of the stone has att 16 def 14

markata have a def of 14 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif\

but I agree that the att/def are too high.. I'll make it att 13/ def 13
AP 13
and gc 15 then

but in the end they die just as easily as all creatures with low prot.. (their modified armor gives only 8 prot and no shield)

[Endoperez]

Don't forget Arrow Fend. With both Air and Fire, Djinnibad will probably use both that and Flaming Arrows. Alternatively, Marble Warriors and later Army of X spells give them good prot.

The dervish commander would make a good thug, but the genies will probably be much better for that.

[Aezeal]

I think the efriti screams thug.. with a protection and a fire shield and nearly max slots.. but he doesn't have THAT many hp and vanilla he certainly can't take on indie's (I tried in test games, usually kills 0 cus I don't script and h casts as a loser so maybe that shouldn't count)

[Aezeal]

yeah from time to time I'm thinking I'm making the nation way to powerfull.. but then I think of niefelheim or vans or jaguar warriors.. and then I can't really say this nation will be much stronger. (The sacreds are very good too though.. but looooowwww on HP)

Then again I could always tone things down http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Wrana]

Better make them right first time, isn't it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
And as for Vans - well, we have genies, aren't we? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
As for Shai-hulud - it's completely different tale. Maybe a special theme for him could be appropriate. Otherwise, just make him a Pretender - He deserves it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif But in what respect will he be different from Wyrm we all know & love? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Aezeal]

well it would be nice if he could be bigger and swallow pplz whole http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

but I'd like him as a summons http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[OMAC]

This sounds cool; anywhere I can d/l the whole thing at once?

[Endoperez]

It's still bits and pieces. Most of the graphics are missing, and I think Aezeal isn't finishing the stats or the descriptions any faster than I'm drawing the sprites.

Would anyone happen to know if camel-riders ride into battle sitting cross-legged, or if their legs hang to the sides?

[OMAC]

On little seats atop their mounts like this, apparently:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Camel.jpg

[Endoperez]

That works fine for shooting bows, but I wondered if they'd lose balance if they tried to swing their swords, or use a lance. I guess the seat makes up for the lack stirrups.

[Wrana]

Here's my attempt into graphics. I hope you'll understand what I mean...
As for camel riders - I'll try to find some pics but am not sure. Do you have access to any Ospreys?
Another idea - let's not forget cheetahs! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif They were quite popular among region's nobility and could make fine national summon (while lions remain common, though these also figured prominently here... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif)

[Endoperez]

Wrana said:
Here's my attempt into graphics. I hope you'll understand what I mean...



Yes, it's clear. That does look good. I think I'll do that one too, once I get the cavalry done.

[Wrana]

Thanks. I thought about making hashihiin step forward on dagger strike & back while slashing w/ scimitar, but my Gimp skills are lacking to make it fast, so I left it as you've seen...

[Aezeal]

Endo I think a dervish leader could be made easily by a little different pose and a small gold dot on the turban.. but I'll leave judgement on that to your artistic talent.

OMAC I need a few more troops before I post a new version...

I just make descriptions and stats when I get a sprite really http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif, the cool sprites give me inspiration to type about them

[Ylvali]

That pic OMAC postel is a dromedar, not a camel. Camels have two bulges while dromedars have one. Forgive my bad english.

The dromedar would be more thematic for deserts and the camel for mountains, different tribes perhaps? Generally I think this nation should have more dromedars than camels. Camel should have frost resistance rather than waste survival, other way around for dromedar.

They also look different.

Dromedar:
http://www.almusafir.ch/tunesien/bilder/tunis02828a.jpg

Camel:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Kamel-IMG_4077.JPG/800px-Kamel-IMG_4077.JPG

[Aezeal]

Yeah but I think they actually rode dromedars and not camels

[Wrana]

Keep the good work! I feel I will probably even make Abdul Alhazred as Hero! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
On pre-Islamic Arabs: they feeled very strongly about their tribes. Possibly we could make some tribe differences - along the lines of Amazons or Marverni. I just have no clear idea for now... e.g, make each tribe considered descendants of a particular genie... or something along these lines... Maybe use alternate mounts?
Another question - what other Heroes could we use? Nasreddin is from actual folklore & also close to more canonical Hydr. Old Man should be here without question (alterantely, he could be made a Rainbow-type Pretender but I'd prefer him as Hero). Alhazred I just love, though he probably shouldn't be present in every era... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif What are other possibilities you would like?

[Ylvali]

Aezeal said:
Yeah but I think they actually rode dromedars and not camels

Yep, so my point is they shouldn´t be called "camel archers" or the like. Better to call them "Beduin archer" or something. BTW I´m not sure that beduins ever used bows. I think not actually. Arab archers should probably be on foot from a historical POW.

[Aezeal]

we have dervish and nomads.. good enough for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif
and in genies we have marid and efriti

As hero's I'm thinking Alladin (stealth) and Sinbad (sailing) for EA http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

And prince (of persia) of course http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Wrana]

To Yivali:
Well, you are wrong - they are both camels. The one-humped one is, correctly, dromedary which is remains today only as domesticated, while the two-humped one is called Bactrian and can be sometimes met in wild. Mostly in Middle Asia deserts, as it name suggests (Bactria was a country somewhat to the east of Caspian Sea). They are different species of the same genus. Also, Bactrians are MORE OFTEN used as beasts of burden, while Dromedaries are MORE OFTEN used as mounts. However, this isn't law & they are mostly interchangeble. Quality is often more important - best riding camels can run faster than horses, while worst... but quality of caravaneers is even more important in such cases.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
And you can look some historical information either at the beginning of this thread or in one called somewhat like "1001 nights"... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

To Aezeal:
Considering prince of Persia - remember that before Mohammed limited Muslims to 4 wives, harems in the region could get really big. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif So such princes could (& did) often be fielded by regiments! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif Do you offer to make them a troop type? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Endoperez]

Princes as units! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Perhaps something in the description of the djinn units? Or make the dervish sons of a djinn and a human wife?

[NTJedi]

I've been developing a Persian/Arabian nation since the middle of 2007... shared a few messages with KO during 2007. The nation design is different, yet I'm sure there will be some similiarities because of Persian/Arabian history and its myths. Hope this doesn't cause any upset feelings.

[Aezeal]

No problem... do you have sprites I can steal?

any tips for kewl creatures I could use?

[Wrana]

To NT Jedi:
No upset feelings, of course! In fact, it's you who could have them & in this case I can offer sincerest apologies from my humble self! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Arabo-Persian version will be for MA, while LA will most probably Turkey-based. EA as we agreed should be based on pre-Islamic Arabs with their genies (or genies with their Arabs! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ).
And what was your idea for composition? Any other ideas in this discussion would also be appreciated.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[NTJedi]

Aezeal said:
No problem... do you have sprites I can steal?

any tips for kewl creatures I could use?



I only have about 10 working sprites, took me all of my free time today to complete the logo and flag for the nation. I'm a perfectionist so the drawing takes me forever. I use to do oil paintings with very nice results yet it took way too much time for me to be satisfied with a finished result. I told KO that I'd try to be finished by Oct of 2007, but events in my life took free time away and altered my plans. As special thanks to KO for his devotion to Dominions_3... I will send him my nation first when it's finished.
I don't have any sprites I'm willing to share at this moment. If there's any sprites from your nations which I find interesting I'll make sure to ask first for permission. If I ask to borrow any sprites it will probably be a common unit/animal.

Tips on creatures... well there's the Phoenix from Arab history. The current Phoenix in Dominions_3 is only available as a pretender and seems weak in my opinion, like a large pelican. I haven't read all the posts, but it looks like you're moving along great!


Wrana said:
To NT Jedi:
No upset feelings, of course! In fact, it's you who could have them & in this case I can offer sincerest apologies from my humble self! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Arabo-Persian version will be for MA, while LA will most probably Turkey-based. EA as we agreed should be based on pre-Islamic Arabs with their genies (or genies with their Arabs! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ).
And what was your idea for composition? Any other ideas in this discussion would also be appreciated.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



My nation is early age... I'm still organizing the ideas for the nation, but it's moving along. It's like a giant puzzle and historical information helps me place pieces together. Anytime I work on this nation I'll have 10 or more windows open. I plan to release a balanced MP version and a version which can be used for providing a stronger computer opponent.

[Wrana]

To Aezeal:
Regarding Alladin - I think he's out of question, as both Heroes I made already ARE stealthy, & have special abilities on top of this.
And Shai-Hulud I think would be better as Pretender for LA...
BTW on Pretenders: I think Obelisk should be included, as well as Sun Disk & Glyph. Another possible candidate is Father of Serpents who is straight out of Shah-name. Other possibilities are Lord of War or someone similar, as well as lion-headed guy who usually leads Machaka. Plus those who are given to all by definition...
To NT Jedi:
And what is your information on Phoenix? If possible, give a source(s) of this also.. IIRC, it came from late antiquity's bestiaries & wasn't present in Arabic folklore (but appeared in books inspired by Greeks & Romans)...

[NTJedi]

There's several online references for the Phoenix coming from Arabic folklore. A search on just .edu websites provides many sources for origins of the phoenix which includes Arabic folklore. The wikipedia although may not be 100% accurate in itself usually provides sources.

[Aezeal]

Ok I'm brainstorming a bit on Sandworm/Shai-hulud

It should trample and it should be huge..
Preferably it should be able to trample even elephants but I don't think anything larger than size 6 is accepted so that can't happen. (plz correct me if I'm wrong)

so that means
size 6 (with a huge sprite)
#trample

I'm thinking it would (besides trampling) only attack by swallowing things whole and incinrating it in it's intestines.
I would use the devourer of souls attack which is called devour soul (with the soul death ability) except that I would make a new weapon just called
#name "devour"
#AOE 1
#dmg 999
#bonus
#magic
#armornegating
#nratt 2 to simulate it can swallow huge numbers of troops at once.
#att 3
#def 0
#len 0

will the creature use this weapon or just try trampling everything?

I'm thinking VERY high HP, high natural defence, decent att skill and average defense skill

I would also like it to burrow but I can't find anything to simulate it except flying (no movement inhibition, skipping provinces and on battle map being somewhere instantly).. which seem kinda silly since it's the opposite.
I was wondering wether a onebattlespell could help here (are there teleport spells except flight? and blink which isn't really it eitehr?)

it would have vulnerability to shock and water (but that doesn't seem to exist) and 100% fireresistance

it would #regenerate 10

and it would be stealthy 5 (if ti's underground it's not likely to be noticed)

no item slots except 2x misc

would this be competative as a high level summon or to strong (I don't really think so since it's only got 2 misc slots so not very much possibilities for adaptation)or to weak (then again it's already got regen will have a ****load of HP, a pretty nasty attack and trample)

[Aezeal]

ow I just tested this... I'll post the .dm file with them as recruitables... it rocks t see them in action like they are now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Wrana]

Well, in this case it will use trample except against Elephants/Dragons. Trample w/ Size 6 is very powerful in itself, of course, but I would prefer just making area-effect swallow. However, I don't know whether it's possible to exclude self-hitting possibility in any way (& in differenence to great mace here it would be silly! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ). Also I wouldn't make it so high-damage. There is weapon quality called swallow iirc, which multiplies damage against smaller beings. There is also a possibility to add small-area fire to its attack (it was mentioned but wasn't of great importance in Dune, of course!) - this would have an advantage as it would allow area effect with no actual chance of biting himself! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
As for water weakness it can be simulated by using either cold or poison weakness. Or even both! Sailor's Death is iirc just a MRE negated damage (I'll look it up). What we could add to emphasize his vulnerability to water is the quality of Vampires & Air Queens which forbids them to enter water in any way (it's hidden iirc, but can be gained by copystats).
On stealthy I disagree. They were easily detected by tremors in the ground even while traveling deep below sands, and if they were not so deep they were preceded by huge sand waves!
On burrow... well, to duplicate no movement inhibition we can use mountain survival (waste one is a must) - and it's not as if Shai-Hulud could really survive beneath forests/swamps! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif As for battlefield - yes, onebattlespell is probably the way if we want to include such surprise attack at all. Method for this is probably to make new spell called burrow or somesuch & copy to it blink, etc. with different description (if you think it needed).
I also don't know how to duplicate it giving off the spice - probably as gem producing? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Another thought just occurring to me is a possibility to somehow intertwine this with hashishiins' drug use... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And as Shai-hulud was highly mystical creature, it should get 3 misc slots! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Size 7 is probably impossible in the game, but you can either write to Kristopher & ask him, or just make it so & test whether this would cause crash/bugs... I for myself wouldn't make elephants largest possible objects in the game but programmers could... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
I already said that I'd prefer him as a Pretender, so we should wait whether someone else has some ideas on this... BTW, did you mean commander-type, or troop-type summon?

[Aezeal]

troop
no magic

I think immunity to cold isn't the same as immunity to water and I don't think it really fits with the Sandworm
same for poison I'd sooner make it poison resistant (I actually will I think)

I notice that if it has trample it won't use it's awesome attack (which btw doens't target itself since it's 2x a AOE 1 attack I think

I wanted to keep the VERY high damage on devour since it could then kill large (size 6 creatures)..
I'll just remove trample though since sandworms actually just devour.. they don't really trample at all.

I want a nice balance for a strong troop (no magic, and only 2 (or 3 if you insist) item slots it he gets GoR

I actually think stealth does apply since if they are deep they can't be found IMHO...
I also think a burrowing unit would really be able t do the same things a flying unit can I would just like it to not have the flying symbol show up.

I would love to hear if size 7 is possible though

[Wrana]

I think immunity to cold isn't the same as immunity to water and I don't think it really fits with the Sandworm
same for poison I'd sooner make it poison resistant (I actually will I think)


Of course it isn't the same! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif BUT we have no specific resistances, etc. for Sailor's Death, etc. And giving THIS creature low MRE would be just stupid.

awesome attack (which btw doens't target itself since it's 2x a AOE 1 attack I think


Of course AOE 1 can't hit itself, but I meant larger AOE, while 2 attacks look about the same as flying icon for me.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

I wanted to keep the VERY high damage on devour since it could then kill large (size 6 creatures)..


Well, it can do it with, say, basic dmg 30 + Str 30 quite well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

sandworms actually just devour.. they don't really trample at all.


Actually they did it quite well - in cases of not-dextrous-enough riders... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif But this, of course, was purely accidental. Also, do you plan to include siege bonus or just let its size & strength speak for themselves? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I want a nice balance for a strong troop


Well, some could say that 999-damage area attack isn't quite their idea of a nice balance... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

I actually think stealth does apply since if they are deep they can't be found IMHO...
I also think a burrowing unit would really be able t do the same things a flying unit can I would just like it to not have the flying symbol show up.


Too large! Ground tremors would give it away long before it will rise to attack.
Also, combination of flying & stealth is quite powerful by itself, without insane stats which Shai-Hulud should have.

I would love to hear if size 7 is possible though


Me, too! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif I just don't have an itch to test it myself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif You can do it while working on unit... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[NTJedi]

Aezeal said:

I would love to hear if size 7 is possible though



I don't think its possible for size_7, otherwise I'm sure KO and JK would have created a unit of such a size. It would be nice if size_7 thru size_10 were made available via modding.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Saulot]

There is no size 7. Size 6 is an abstraction for all creatures larger than size 5, even if relatively they are not quite similar in size with each other... like a tarrasque and an elephant.

The main obstacle with bigger creatures is not the size limitation, but the grid size on the battlefield, and the 128x128 pixel limit. Even if the pixel limit was removed, larger sprites would begin to overlap (in fact, they can even at sizes within the 128 limit already) due to grid spacing.

Edit: For those of you thinking, well.. maybe in Dom4 we can ask for size12 grids which are about 4 times the size of the current ones (and have 6 size2 units), that comes with it's own baggage, namely that you're going to have units which attack other units with melee weapons that couldn't possibly reach them.

[Wrana]

Thanks. However, about reach - does weapon length has any relation to it?

[Endoperez]

No. Press 'g' in battle to see the grid. If units of different sides are in neighbouring squares, they can melee; if not, they can't melee.

[Saulot]

Nothing to do with weapon length or stats at all.

I meant, as it appears, on the battlefield,... the units will attack and hit each other as normal. Just that if you revised the system as I gave in example, the units will appear to be very far apart, and hitting each other swords and daggers even when they look like they're 20 feet apart or so. It will look strange.

[Aezeal]

Of course AOE 1 can't hit itself, but I meant larger AOE, while 2 attacks look about the same as flying icon for me..
--> it's one weapon with 2 attacks in it.. it just swallows 2 whole squares basicly (unless they can jump away)

Well, it can do it with, say, basic dmg 30 + Str 30 quite well.
--> but everything that is swallowed should die http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Well, some could say that 999-damage area attack isn't quite their idea of a nice balance...
--> well I'm thinking of balance compared to a high level summon like arch-demons and seraph.. considering this one isn't a leader has low item slots AND no magic... there has to be something nasty about him (personally I think he's still weaker)

It might be a thought to make a less strong summon (lower level of course) with a weaker swallow attack like you have
I could name the smaller ones "Sandworm" and the larger ones "Shai-Hulud"

Good to know size 7 can't be done pplz

QUESTION:
is there a way to make a unit get flying without the symbol showing up? (is there a way to use a onebattlespell that is basicly flight modified so the symbol doesn't show (I don't know what exactly "causes" the symbol to appear. (if this can be done I'd do this and the screw burrowing on the large map.. else I'll just give him flying http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Wrana]

Well, if I would be averse to strange looks I wouldn't play Dominions... It's not as if the game's main attraction is in its glamourous graphics! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Wrana]

Just hope your idea of balancing it wouldn't include Move 10... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Kristoffer O]

Monster FIsh has a swallow attack. Double dmg vs smaller beings IIRC.

[Wrana]

Yeah, something like that. I just seen it in modding manual so don't know who actually has it. Thanks in any case.

[Aezeal]

Please have a look at the nation as it is now. For easier looking into sandworms they are also available as a recruit (and not too expensive yet) but obviously that is not what they will be in the end

Let me know what you think about the way I used sprites for teh sandworm and about their balance. (it's a 35 earth gem summon.. that isn't cheap IMHO and not easy to cast)

[Endoperez]

I'm otherwise occupied for a while. I might throw together cavalry sprite or two, but don't expect major progress for a week or two.

[Aezeal]

I understand, it's not like I'm paying you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif everything you can do is welcomed but no pressure

[Wrana]

To Endoperez:
Yes, it's completely all-right. We have some stalling here, too, it seems... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
I'll probably make LA version in a few days, together with slightly rebalanced MA.

[Aezeal]

anybody like the sandworms?

[Endoperez]

They aren't an arab myth, they are generic desert monsters. It's your mod, but I don't like the idea.

[Aezeal]

I'm focussing more on desert now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif, a desert race for a Dune reader like myself was unthinkable once I thought of it.. and the race needed a nice race specific summon.. it's not gonna be a recruitable in in the end.. this was just to show how he looks.

[Wrana]

Thank Cthulhu for small favors! You really didn't make it Move 10.

[Aezeal]

Do you really think the sandworm is better than a seraph or archdevil? or a GOR tartarian?

[NTJedi]

Aezeal said:
Do you really think the sandworm is better than a seraph or archdevil? or a GOR tartarian?



Probably not... depends on the gem cost and overall stats. I've heard some characteristics discussed yet haven't seen its overall stats.

[Wrana]

You should probably take a Tarrasque as an example...
BTW, there are no sources that describe Jinn as ethereal creatures. Actually, there are signs of just the opposite.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

To All:
What do you think is better - take Shiite clergy as LA while Sunni will act in MA, or vice versa? If you don't remember, Sunni clergy is more secular-action-oriented (meaning higher Ld & some nudane abilities, such as patrolling in example above), while Shiite one is more mystical-oriented & more fundamentalist (meaning probably higher Priest level & certainly that they should get some magic levels)... Also, MA is based on Arabo-Persian states around 10th century & LA - on Turkish Empire.

[Aezeal]

I would not use such direct links to a real world belief. Priest is close enough then do with the stats what you like.

[Aezeal]

#newweapon 802 --- Sand worm
#name "devour"
#AOE 1
#dmg 999
#bonus
#magic
#armornegating
#nratt 2 --- to simulate it can swallow huge numbers of troops at once.
#att 3
#def 0
#len 0
#end

#newspell
#name "Summon Sandworm"
#descr "This spell allows the mage to communicate with an ancient and huge sandworm and persuade it to join your cause."
#school 0
#restricted 78
#researchlevel 8
#path 0 3
#path 1 0
#pathlevel 0 4
#pathlevel 1 3
#effect 10001
#fatiguecost 3500
#damage 2811
#nreff 1
#end


#newmonster 2811
#spr1 "Nomads and genies/Sandworm_2.tga"
#spr2 "Nomads and genies/Sandworm_1.tga"
#name "Sandworm"
#descr "The sandworm is the largest creature known on the planet. It prefers to live deep in deserts where it spends most of it's time burrowing deep under the ground. It attacks by swallowing whole regiments of troops or even multiple elephants at a time. Once devoured by a sandworm nothing can survive since the combination of the bowelmovements and extreme heat, which it uses to burrow through the ground, are deadly to everything. The Sandworm burrowing makes it tactical and strategical maneuverable like flying units"
#hp 300
#size 6
#ressize 6
#prot 18
#mor 15
#mr 18
#enc 3
#str 30
#att 13
#def 12
#prec 10
#mapmove 4
#ap 10
#gcost 100
#rcost 20
#itemslots 12288 -- two misc
#wastesurvival
#weapon 802 - devour
#trample
#regenerate 10
#stealth 5
#fireres 100
#coldres -50
#shockres -50
#flying
#maxage 100000
#older 10000
#end

that is my sandworm stuff

[Wrana]

They are different enough to base different eras on them. So I asked which split would be better.
Also I currently written down names list (male mostly, but I will add women's names when I get my hands on some list). It's in the current 0.12 version, together with some genies of Persian origin and Arabian physician/alchemist. Some will probably be dropped - ghul trooper, for example, will be probably useless unless we come up with some clever idea on what it should do.
Another moment - in 1001 human - > animal transformations are rather common, so we should have some magicians who can pull it off. And this is done by mortal magicians more often than by genies! Probably we should do 1 type with classical "Sorcery" paths & another one with Elemental paths?
Also, iiuc, Marid is the name of those genies who rejected Allah/Pantokrator, so this name should probably appear in the MA when Islam-like religion is used by Nomads. These Jinn would lose sacred status together with priest levels, but gain magic levels instead (while their EA predescessors with priest levels should probably be just called Jinn).

[Aezeal]

I don't think marid rejected allah perse

[Wrana]

This is the meaning of the name iirc.

[Wrana]

Next update, including some reworking of mages & reworked MA genies...

[DrPraetorious]

Jinn can definitely interact with the physical world, but all ethereal creatures can do that.

Point is, they are made of smokeless fire, yeah? Everything else that is made-of-fire, or wind for that matter, is ethereal.

Ethereal in this game doesn't mean you can walk through walls; air elementals are ethereal and obviously can't do that. It means that magic is required to harm you reliably, which I'm pretty sure is true of jinn.

But glamour/stealth is clearly more essential to their nature than etherealness, so if they're only going to have one or the other, jinn should have glamour.

[Endoperez]

Ethereal - combat monsters if they use any kind of armor, ESPECIALLY the commanders.

Stealthy (esp. with flying) - awesome tactical mobility and raiding capability.

Glamour (esp. with flying) - your opponent won't know where your forces are, or where your best mages are, unless you're already fighting. It also helps them a lot in combat.

Personally, I can see djinn having either stealth or glamour, but I'd be careful with any one djinn having both.

[Wrana]

To DrPraetorius:

Ethereal in this game doesn't mean you can walk through walls; air elementals are ethereal and obviously can't do that. It means that magic is required to harm you reliably, which I'm pretty sure is true of jinn.


As I've said, quite the opposite is true. For example, a short poem by a 6th century warrior-poet Taabbata Sharran describes a jinn personally killed by author with a sword (and without any magic mentioned). In 1001 Nights, which was written down much later, one jinn is killed by a date seed - while being invisible! Invisibility, or ability to turn into likeness of another, on the other hand, is mentioned quite often.

Point is, they are made of smokeless fire, yeah? Everything else that is made-of-fire, or wind for that matter, is ethereal.


In the game, I can mention one of the Fire Kings, who is quite material... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif While in the Persian folklore at least (which I know better than Arabian one, though I will possibly get some materials on the latter soon) Perih are clearly made up from fire, but are clearly material to the point that they intermarry with humans. They are skinshifters, though.
To Endoperez:

Personally, I can see djinn having either stealth or glamour, but I'd be careful with any one djinn having both.


Did you mean "ethereal or glamour"? For Glamour units are quite often stealthy... And if you meant etherealness, than yes, I personally much prefer them having glamour, while etherealness would be possibly present only for marids which are mages, not troops - & even this I'm not sure of. Aezeal, on the other hand, prefers etherealness for some reason not currently understood by myself - he mentioned something about not being similar to Vans... :shrug:
As I see it, Perih should have Awe, Daw - Fear and be physically strong, Jinn as such - Glamour, Efreeti - be really hot guys w/ Heat & Fear (though this name is often used interchangable with Jinn & Marid, but they now got a separate tradition of their own...), Ghul - Fear, while being undead (as I've said, I'm not sure about possibility of Ghul troops).
Where Jann & Sola came from, I currently don't know so I don't plan to include them in MA/LA. LA possibly should include Yajudj & Madjuj, though.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif It's possible that Jann are the same creatures as Peryh, though. Could you remember something on this?

[Endoperez]

Nope, I meant stealth OR glamour. If they had both, they'd be more similar to Vanir and would probably be annoyingly good raiders (thanks to glamour giving them +20 stealth minimum). Glamour alone seems enough to cover the illusions.

[Saulot]

Devour as a magical attack?

Perhaps it shouldn't be, after all it's hard to eat something noncorporeal/ethereal like a ghost or a shade.

[Wrana]

To Endoperez:
Well, Arabian-based faction SHOULD have good raiders.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif And that they sometimes pulled really wicked tricks of that kind you surely had heard. What I can promise is that really hard-hitting types probably wouldn't have stealth - after all, it's quite difficult to miss an appearance of Efreet "tall as the sky", or Daw "tall as a tower". Though they wouldn't be SO large in a game, sorry.
BTW, there is some discontinuity in the sources - efreets/marids are often descibed as very large, but are still able to appear in small rooms & bed human women sometimes. This could mean either that extra-large size is glamour-based illusion, or that they have second shape which is used for combat purposes - which agrees fine with Perih & Daw having animal forms...

[Aezeal]

Glamour is illusions and I don't see them as that, I see them as magic beings living in our world but also not of this world. And to me that is ethereal.

Only the Jann is ethereal, made of smoke and fire (like fire elementals = ethereal

The Sola is a creature of magma (mix of ghost light and a king of elemental fire, but weakish) in my describtion and can fly/hover

The Marid and Efriti just fly since I didn't want to overpower them.
IF I would give them anything else I'd give Efriti etherealness too and Marid glamour (I see marids casting illusions etc)

anyway all that arabs ancient literature is just telling everything all ways so you can't really use it as a solid base.

Saulot: I thought that command didn't actually make it a MAGIC attack, it just makes it a special attack that wouldn't disappear when equipping weapons (natural attack) why I thought that I can't find atm. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif
(ah I found it that is #bonus)
The fire in it's insides are hot though don't thing an average ethereal being would enjoy being there.

but I guess # magic is out indeed

[Aezeal]

but is that sandworm overpowered for 35 gems???

[NTJedi]

Aezeal said:
but is that sandworm overpowered for 35 gems???



I don't think it's overpowered for 35 gems.

The age setting seems too high, I've been under the impression the age of sandworms are ranges in thousands of years.
The current age ranges in the tens of thousands with a maximum of 100,000.

Also according to the wikipedia the sandworm is highly susceptible to water poisoning.

[Wrana]

To Aezeal.
What you don't see is completely your own problem. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif That Jinn often turned invisible & changed their appearance is mentioned quite often. And this is what is said in the description of Glamour. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
As for living in this world but being not of this world, it's unfortunately out of question.. Allah HAD made other worlds populated by angels according to some sources, but angels & Jinns are different beings - Shaitan sometimes appears to have common features with Jinn, but that's it. Jinn and especially "lesser" races of geniefolk are much closer to mortals than to angels - they may intermarry with humans and have children, including common with them, they die & aren't always especially long-lived, they are killed by normal weapons, etc...
I didn't met Jann in any sources I've seen except AD&D and there they aren't ethereal. As for being made of fire this is mentioned for Jinn in general, Perih & possibly angles (I'm not sure whether it's worth it to include Islamic angels which possibly wouldn't be different enough from those which Marignon, e.g., summons).
Sola I also didn't meet. Where did you find them? Name suggests something of probably Hellenistic/Neo-Platonist origins, though this is of course no reason to drop them entirely - if they are overpowered or aren't fit to the same patten as other genies, this will be reason enough.
What I would give to Efreets is larger combat form & smaller human-sized one, though I'm not currently clear about which advantages the latter should have. Both names are often used interchangably as I already mentioned, but it's possible to make 2 different subraces by making Efreets thugs & Marids mages..
I can use it as a good base. If you can't that's completely different problem - and not mine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif Any folklore has some discontinuity as it's created by many people during large periods of time, but for the same reason it mostly conforms to the common pattern. (I won't get to deeply into this here unless there is an interest). As I mentioned above, these patterns are relatively clear - but they differ somewhat between Arabian & Persian folklore (the latter, e.g., rarely describes Jinns as such, though it mentions them). And 1001 as such was written in Late Middle Ages, and in Egypt to boot! It contains Persian and even Indian influences - so I would prefer to use its patterns preferably in LA (I now think about sorcerers)...
#bonus means just it - & is mostly used for mount attacks, etc. While qeapon equipping shouldn't be a problem if the monster in question has only misc slots - you just can't equip weapons in them - excluding those which give #bonus themselves! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif
As for overpowered - I have currently no time for experiments with it in its various versions. Did you make any? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Endoperez]

Sorry for taking such a long leave. The original reason for this didn't take more than a couple of days, but I just didn't feel motivated. I still don't, because camels are hard to draw, and because I'm still not sure if warriors are supposed to sit before, after or on the hump. Still, I got some progress. This preliminary camel rider has weird proportions and doesn't look like a sprite yet, but he's drawn quite a bit larger than necessary so I can work on those details once I shrink him down. The camel was edited from Waste Survival icon.

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/606224-temp.jpg

[Aezeal]

wow I love it .. really... if you insist it's not ready yet I won't use it yet though

[Endoperez]

I insist that you don't use the jotun riding the tree-legged camel. If there was an ordinary Dominions cavalry unit next to it, the human's head would be at the same level with the camel's. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Wrana]

Good! Sorry, I still have no camel-rider illustration at hand to point where the rider actually sits. But probably will even if I have to purhase Osprey book & wait half-year while it gets to Moscow! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Endoperez]

Wrana said:
Good! Sorry, I still have no camel-rider illustration at hand to point where the rider actually sits. But probably will even if I have to purhase Osprey book & wait half-year while it gets to Moscow! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif



Google Image got me several pictures with people sitting in front of the hump, and one with the swordsman sitting behind it. I don't know if the latter is just a mistake or made by someone who has researched how warriors rode camels. At least it will look similar to horse-riders, so it should fit in to the Dominions sprites quite well.

[Wrana]

What I do know is that in case of Bactrian camels riders are placed between humps - but these were mostly used as draft animals... actually, they are included as such in my MA - speaking of which do you have any opinion about where it's better to place Shiite priesthood and where a Sunni one? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Endoperez]

I don't know about that one, but you'll get excellent priest sprites shortly. Much better than the sprites I make, even. You'll have to use #copyspr and wait for after the weekend or so, but that shouldn't be a problem.

[NTJedi]

Well it took over 3 hours to create another pair of images for one single unit. Thinking of the unit... I'll want to slightly change its attire for more difference appeal.

I hope things are moving faster for you guys doing the Djinnibad mod.

[Wrana]

Priest sprites would be excellent!
And here is the almost-ready version of MA.
What remains is mages, particularly balance of their cost & Sandstorm spell. The latter would probably require much work as I have little knowledge of spell modding. But it should be included in all 3 eras, so after this LA would be much easier...

[Aezeal]

Well NT I can't do human sprites I'm sure and Endo is busy .. but we'll get there..

I'm not really involved in the MA mod since it's to much based on a real nation instead of existing myths and I'm not in favor that much and all my suggestions of keeping references to real world religions out of it are ignored http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif.

I'm very interested in teh sandstorm spell though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Wrana]

Me too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif But probably will be finished in this weekend. For now you can copy Cheetahs summoning & Palace-building spell (probably should be somewhat higher cost, though). They are appropriate in any era & are independent of changes in genies. For now I moved Khaliph & Pekhlevan to multiheroes - this keeps them in game without them affecting balance too much. Possibly Pekhlevan should be recruitable, but I will need to think more on his balance...
And existing myths were made in frame of real world religion.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Aezeal]

I'd still not call priests directly after sunni or shiite..

[Wrana]

They surely won't be called thus! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif I mentioned them so here to avoid having to explain their differences. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif