Ablative Armor

[Black_Knyght]

I'm trying to add Ablative Armor as a component to the Mod I'm working on, but I'm not real sure where to go with it. below is what I have so far, and I'd welcome any ( constructive http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) thoughts or ideas...



ABLATIVE ARMOR

Name := Ablative Armor I
Description := Armor which absorbs energy by vaporizing its surface layer.
Pic Num := 30
Tonnage Space Taken := 1
Tonnage Structure := 10
Cost Minerals := 50
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 20
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Armor
Family := 45
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Armor
Tech Level Req 1 := 4
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Armor
Ability 1 Descr := Is damaged before any other components on a ship.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Emissive Armor
Ability 2 Descr := Negates any damage of 5 or less.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 5
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

Name := Ablative Armor II
Description := Armor which absorbs energy by vaporizing its surface layer.
Pic Num := 30
Tonnage Space Taken := 1
Tonnage Structure := 12
Cost Minerals := 50
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 20
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Armor
Family := 45
Roman Numeral := 2
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Armor
Tech Level Req 1 := 5
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Armor
Ability 1 Descr := Is damaged before any other components on a ship.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Emissive Armor
Ability 2 Descr := Negates any damage of 10 or less.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 10
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

Name := Ablative Armor III
Description := Armor which absorbs energy by vaporizing its surface layer.
Pic Num := 30
Tonnage Space Taken := 1
Tonnage Structure := 15
Cost Minerals := 50
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 20
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Armor
Family := 45
Roman Numeral := 3
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Armor
Tech Level Req 1 := 6
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Armor
Ability 1 Descr := Is damaged before any other components on a ship.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Emissive Armor
Ability 2 Descr := Negates any damage of 15 or less.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 15
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

[Suicide Junkie]

As mentioned on se.net, the emissive bit is very likely not to do what you want, and the HP is more than enough to make it Überarmor.

The next step after ablative armor is leaky armor; simply remove the armor ability, and you'll find that it is still better than standard armor... but it has more interesting combat effects http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Black_Knyght]

Damn.

Not looking for "Überarmor" here. Just something better than Armored Hull Plating but less advance than Emissive or Stealth armors

[Suicide Junkie]

Consider the math:
Standard armor gives 3-4 hp/kt
Shields give up to 8 hp/kt
Your armor gives 15 hp/kt

Basically, shields start looking as useless by comparison as standard armor used to.

PS:
What makes you think stealth and scattering armor are better than standard armor? All you need is one component of them to get all the ability benefits, and the rest of your defenses can be the slightly better HP/kt standard armor, or the superhigh hp shields.

I reccommend that you either:
- reduce your new armor hp to max out at 11 or 12, and maybe add some intermediate armor which is size 3 and gives 6-8 hp/kt.
- remove the armor ability and make it leaky armor. As leaky armor, you'll have the option of increasing the hitpoints to 10-25 without making shields irrelevant.

[capnq]

Suicide Junkie said:
Standard armor gives 3-4 hp/kt
Shields give up to 8 hp/kt
Your armor gives 15 hp/kt

For further comparison:

Emissive Armor 1.5-2.5 hp/kt (plus damage reduction)
Scattering Armor 3 hp/kt (plus defense bonus)
Stealth Armor 3.33 hp/kt (plus defense bonus)
Organic Armor 3.33-5 hp/kt (plus armor regeneration)
Crystalline Armor 3.33-5 hp/kt (plus shield generation)

[StarShadow]

Strictly speaking, the stock emissive armor is ablative armor.

[Suicide Junkie]

Emissive is the opposite of ablative.

Logically, ablative armor *ablates* (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ablate). Which means part of it is permanently lost after each hit.

Emissive armor, on the other hand, does not take any damage from small hits, typically at the expense of having fewer hitpoints per kt.

[Black_Knyght]

Okay - I get that THIS was a bad design, so to speak.

But, now I'm thoroughly lost. I don't even know HOW that armor is considered so tough?

I don't have a clue how to incorporate, or even WHAT, leaky armor is. I'm still new to the Modding aspect of SEIV, though some areas I get better than others.

[Suicide Junkie]

It is tough, because it has 15 hitpoints per kt!

You could spend 10kt of space on a standard armor, and get 40 hitpoints at max tech.
Or you could spend 10kt of space on your new armor, and get 150 hitpoints at max tech.

150 >> 40 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


Leaky armor is simply inert components without the armor ability, and which have a high number of hitpoints per KT.
Damage to internals is applied via a "hitpoints lottery" type system:
If you have 950 hp worth of leaky armor, and 50 hp worth of other internals, then (950/1000) 95% of the time, weapon damage will randomly pick an armor component to damage.

You can see how this provides excellent protection while still leaving a chance of damage leaking through to internals http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

For further details on the damage mechanics, bordering on the nitty gritty see:
- DEF 200 : Damage Theory (http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/MM/SE4/Mods/CarrierBattles/CBmodTutorial/DEF200.html)
- DEF 340 : Armor Mechanics (http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/MM/SE4/Mods/CarrierBattles/CBmodTutorial/DEF340.html)

[Fyron]

You can get up to speed with mod concepts like Leaky Armor here:

http://home.spaceempires.net/modworks-concepts.html

[Black_Knyght]

Okay - Thanx guys. I'll take a peek at those and see how things work.

Thanx for all the help and advice http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[Parasite]

The lines...
Tonnage Space Taken := 1
Tonnage Structure := 15
mean that one ton gives 15 hit points.

Standard armor III has
Tonnage Space Taken := 10
Tonnage Structure := 40
One ton gives 4 (40/10) hit points of protection.

Shield PhasedV
Tonnage Space Taken := 40
Tonnage Structure := 40
Ability 1 Val 1 := 375
gives 375 points of protection, then a "leaky armor" effect of 40, but takes 40 spaces.

With the caveat that this is my incomplete understanding.

[StarShadow]

Yes and no, ablative armor on, for example, a main battle tank, is not going to be destroyed by everything that hits it, if that were the case small-arms fire would be the bane of every armored tank.

Strictly speaking ablative armor as we know it, is not possible in SE4. The purpose of ablative armor is that it basicly destroys itself in order to prevent or reduce damage from an incoming projectile.

To me it seems that emissive is the closest thing SE4 really has to offer, and considering that early ablative armor used rubber (either as a filler between two armor plates, or as a backing) to reduce damage, it seems appropriate. In any case, since this is a game, we're allowed to stretch/alter/change traditional meanings.

[Fyron]

Ablative armor is the most directly implementable form of armor in SE4... You burn off the outer layer to prevent the ship from taking any real damage. Ablative armor is directly represented by raw hit points. Making it come in tiny chunks makes it burn off all the faster, as well as making it harder to repair than big pieces of "regular" armor.

Emissive armor is exactly not what ablative armor is; emissive is a magic, limitless reduction effect, which negates damage without any commensurate reduction in strength. Think of a mirror reflecting a laser beam.

[Black_Knyght]

So - here's the question - How would YOU work up Ablative Armor?

[Suicide Junkie]

1kt size, 12-20 hp/kt, without armor ability.
Or,
1kt size, 6-10 hp/kt, with armor ability.

I would probably add a 3kt option, with 75% of the hp/kt of the above. Research would go through standard armor, then the 3kt stuff, and finally the really ablative 1kt stuff.


In fact, I even made a mod for the SE4 classic demo which added such armor.

[StarShadow]

Not quite, as I said, ablative armor *destroys itself* to reduce or prevent damage to it's vehicle. That is not the same as a regular armor plate that takes damage until it is destroyed. It is not possible to model true ablative armor in SE4. Also, and this is just my opinion, I do not see emissive armor as a magic armor that negates damage. It is simply an advanced armor that requires a lot of damage to overcome, in the same manner that it's nearly impossible to damage a main battle tank with small-arms. However we don't consider tank armor to be magic armor that shrugs off damage even though, with weak weapons, that's exactly what it does.

[PvK]

Lots of 1kT components would make it take a really long time to repair.

Sounds like it should probably be easy to repair, so you could use a Proportions-style scale mount on it so it could be a single component per ship. Or you could just make it a larger component. Multiply SJ's well-balanced numbers by 10 to 100 times for big easy-repair components.

[Suicide Junkie]

Only if by "destroys itself" you mean "is destroyed by the enemy weapon".

You might be thinking of reactive armor, where you have an explosive charge in your armor plate to counter penetrating rounds.
Reactive armor is generally simulated by giving the armor a range-1 point defense weapon, with a reload time of 30.

Ablative armor absorbs a lot of energy by allowing its surface layers to be vaporized, leaving the inner layers unscathed.
This is simulated in SE4 by having very small components with good HP; each hit destroys at least one armor plate, but you have lots behind it.

In stock-like games, the repair time is usually irrelevant, since ships are very rarely left alive but damaged in combat, and repair rates are quite high.

[Fyron]

PvK said:
Lots of 1kT components would make it take a really long time to repair.


Which is a good thing, as it can create tradeoffs between armor and shields. With armor, you get more raw hit points but it takes a bit to repair. With shields, you get all the defense points back each combat. Turning armor into insta-repair with 100kt components makes things far less interesting IMO.

[StarShadow]

Yes, I was thinking of reactive armor, my mistake.

[PvK]

I see your points, SJ and Fryon. The balance issue is interesting on balance grounds - repair time is an interesting trade-off, though 100kT components aren't as insta-repair as shields are. The "ships are usually wiped out in stock" idea is something I'd generally want to mod away anyway, personally. On a sense-making basis, if it's supposed to be a disposable external armor substance, I'd do it the way I suggested. If I wanted something balanced as SJ suggested, I'd describe it differently so it made sense to me, but that's just my personal taste, of course.

PvK

[Black_Knyght]

Suicide Junkie said:
1kt size, 12-20 hp/kt, without armor ability.
Or,
1kt size, 6-10 hp/kt, with armor ability.

I would probably add a 3kt option, with 75% of the hp/kt of the above. Research would go through standard armor, then the 3kt stuff, and finally the really ablative 1kt stuff.


In fact, I even made a mod for the SE4 classic demo which added such armor.



This sounds dead-on, but try as I might I can't seem to figure out how to write it up, or get it researched http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[douglas]

Black_Knyght said:
This sounds dead-on, but try as I might I can't seem to figure out how to write it up, or get it researched http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif


For just adding it to stock as high-end armor and ignoring the 3 kT stuff, do the following:

1) In TechArea.txt, increase the maximum level of Armor to 9.
2) In Components.txt, copy a basic armor component.
3) Change the Tonnage Space Taken of your new component to 1.
4) Change the Tonnage Structure to 6.
5) Change the Tech Level Req for Armor to 7.
6) Change the Family number to something that is not used by anything else.
7) Set the costs and name of this new component to whatever you like. Keep in mind that cost is per component, and you need lots of this component to do anything. You now have level 1 of your new ablative armor.
8) For the other 2 levels, copy your new component, change the Tech Level Req to 8 and 9, change Tonnage Structure to 8 and 10, and change the name and cost as appropriate.
9) For the leaky versions, just copy the three components you just created, remove the armor ability, double the Tonnage Structure, and change the family number to something unique.

You might want to change the description too.

[Nocturnal]

An example of Ablative Armor based on Suicide Junkie's:

ABLATIVE ARMOR

Name := Ablative Armor I
Description := Armor which absorbs energy by vaporizing its surface layer.
Pic Num := 30
Tonnage Space Taken := 1
Tonnage Structure := 6
Cost Minerals := 5
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 2
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Armor
Family := 45
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Armor
Tech Level Req 1 := 4
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Armor
Ability 1 Descr := Is damaged before any other components on a ship.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

Per 10kT, this armor will cost 50 minerals and 20 radioactives, and provide 60kT of protection. Therefore compared to normal armor it will provide better protection, but will cost slightly more (radioactives) and take ten times as long to repair.

Edit: whoops, didn't notice this thread was a month dead.

[Black_Knyght]

Nocturnal said:Edit: whoops, didn't notice this thread was a month dead.



Not dead, just napping.

Thanx, btw, to both you and Douglas for the break-down and detailing. It helps me get a better visual understanding of what I need to do