Conceptual Content Mod

[Sombre]

So I was talking to QM the other day about a mod project that I’ve been considering for a while and he’d been thinking about a similar thing. While I enjoy bringing entirely new nations to dom3 and will continue to do so (currently working on lizardmen) I also love the basegame nations and often feel like adding stuff to them, particularly when using a nation that has a very short recruitment list or a glaring lack of national summons.

My original thought was to produce a mod which added exactly 1 national spell and 1 new recruitable unit to each nation, ensuring that this new content was thematically on point and if possible gave the race a new strategy (so a niche unit or spell) or helped balance it a bit. I also wanted to avoid replacing anything currently used by the nation – so no flat out better infantry, no atavi longbows, no pale ones with more suitable weapons and shields,… nothing like that. Instead I might give Jomon a battlefield Koga Ninja troop, or Machaka a pygmy with animal awe for elephant killing duty, or a DN vine based entangle spell that also poisons or causes fear for LA Pangaea.

I like this idea of 1 unit and 1 spell for each nation. It gives a clear goal and everyone can tell fairly easily what’s been added. But on the other hand it’s clear that some basegame nations have plenty of content while others are rather bare – particularly those with no national spells whatsoever. So while I think 1 unit and 1 spell would be a nice minimum to aim for, clearly some nations could use more love than others.

I think a good idea to start would be just looking at the MA nations. At this stage I want to plan things out a bit so I thought I’d get feedback from you fine folks. Any great ideas for content? Which nations need it most? Which have a glaring lack of something?

QM and I agreed that while some national spells could be summons, it might actually be more interesting to add new combat spells rather than rituals, because non-summon national spells are a bit rarer in basegame.

[Zeldor]

I think every nation should get maybe a national SC, like Iron Angel for Ulm, Angels for Pythium/Mari, Tlalocs and demons for Mictlan...

Every nation could get more summons. National summons are really cool. I suppose it will be small project first and it will get incorporated into CBM later, like WH?

Oh, I could work on summons for T'ien Ch'i, probably all ages. My favourite nations and I like Chinese mythology :0

[Sombre]

Tienchi actually already has quite a lot of content, especially in terms of national summons. I would make sure it got the minimum 1 unit 1 spell though.

As for making SCs, well the problem there is that they're major features of the nation and quite hard to balance. They're also usually pretty big projects to actually make. I'm not saying I won't do them though. They certainly provide a lot of scope for theme and fun factor.

[Zeldor]

We could add many magic/holy spells. For example Holy Light [H+F] giving darkvision 50 [or at least 25] to entire army.

MA TC has some crappy summons [for example that Huli Jing]. Maybe they got better with CBM, but vanilla ones are utter crap. I hope summons here do not become like that. And if that mods is for vanilla and we make lower level summons good [especially compared to other ones] it may be really strange. So adding summonable mages/SCs may be easier to balance for standalone mod, not a part of CBM.

I can sit with encyclopedy of mythology and find summons for many nations, I guess http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Though someone else would have to do stats.

[Endoperez]

What does Huli Jing summon, again? Shapechanging Nature mage or something?

[Zeldor]

Shapechanging [into fox] stealthy mage.

P.S. Done some tests - it seems it has some decent randoms. Tested with CBM but I doubt QM changed that. Seems that 3N is basic. I have no idea what other randoms are, but I got things like just 3N; 3N2W2A; 3N1W2S; 3N1A1E. IT doesn't really help or fit TC really though.

[Sombre]

The mod will be designed to work with CBM and will use it as a balancing stick. Of course it will also work with basegame.

[Sombre]

So,.. how about some suggestions for new recruitable troops? Remember we're talking MA only right now.

I'm very tempted to do a bog beast cavalry unit for MA Ctis.

[llamabeast]

Maybe you should do a bog beast unit for each nation.

[VedalkenBear]

New recruitable troops? As in, national and non-commander? Non-joke?

Abysia: Fire Drake-riders, a la LA Agartha's Cave Drake Knights.

Eriu: Glamered Slingers.

Any nation that uses Mammoths/Elephants: Some other form of early expansion. It gets old. ><

Marignon: Fire-resistant 'Guardian of the House of Justice' or maybe 'Justiciars'.

Pythium: Is there any way to make a _unit_ that gains bonuses from a communion but otherwise does not affect that communion? IOW, have a 'shieldwall' unit for Pythium that when the Communion Master gains Body Ethereal/Luck/Quickness, they also get, but it doesn't pump the Master's paths?

Machaka: A sacred troop that costs <100g. :p Poison Resistance would probably be the way to go. Perhaps give them a weapon that has a secondary effect of webbing the target? Hrm, basically sacred Bane Spider troops, it seems.

Caelum: A hybrid melee/ranged unit. That way, they could use hold/attack much better, and leverage the good precision Caelum gets on most of its units.

Ermor: Cataphract of some kind? Cf. Nightmare for inspiration.

I'm sure I'll think of more.

[Sombre]

Some of those ideas are very nice and have legs.

I'll give MA Mict an atlatl unit (longrange javelin) I think.

[Zeldor]

I would give to all Mictlans [or maybe to even all bless nations] better non-sacred to at least give somewhat viable non-bless strategy.

[Wrana]

Yes, especially for MA Mictlan! They should have something that makes them special - and more advanced than EA/LA, too. Probably some sort of cavalry?
As for Eriu - they certainly should get chariots! It's Ireland-based, after all! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
MA Arcoscephale... probably cavalry OR some sort of sailing/amphibious unit?
Broken Ermor - the idea of something similar to Nightmares is probably the best... but they shouldn't be called Kataphraktes, Equites with some epithtete would be fine.
Pythium - maybe light cavalry?
Man... don't know. Foot Knight, maybe?
Ulm - they would be best served by getting some more mobile troops. May be even mounted crossbowmen?
Marignon - don't know. An idea of guard of House of Fiery Justice is tempting... but it makes Flagellants obsolete. And what this House would be more in need of is troops with Patrol bonus! Could some be devised?
MA Mictlan - as I've said, maybe some Araukan-based cavalry? Or, say, Crocodile warriors? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Tien Chi - has it all. And Shao-lin monks would be too much...
Machaka - maybe stealthy troops? There were also various leopard cults, etc. Or, if spiders remain the main theme, they could use some quick-climbing troops with siege bonus...
MA Agartha - something like miners? or chakram throwers (these could be missiles best suited for underground combat, actually)?
Abysia - don't know. As they have no close analog... Chariots??
MA Caelum - also don't know. Maybe some other animal besides Mammoth? Say, weaker but faster?
C'tis Miasma - maybe Poor Amphibian troop/mount? Or some non-capital missilers (Boomerang, for example - good range & damage, but few ammo)?
Pangaea Age of Bronze - maybe Centaur Chariot? Or missile-armed Minotaurs (say, javelins)? Or Satir Slingers?
Vanheim - maybe some missile troops besides javeliners? axe throwers?
Jotunheim - Vaetti archers?
Bandar Log - Chariot Archers? Mounted Bandar?
Shinuyama - Kappa with other weapons? Dai Bakemono with paired weapons but lighter armor?
Atlantis - no idea at all.
R'lyeh - human acolyte/cultist in land forts? Maybe warriors of some degenerated tribe?
Oceania - maybe some harpoon throwers?
Eriu - see above: chariots. Plus possibly sacred bulls!

[VedalkenBear]

C'tis could use a troop or two that could be used with their Poison Slingers.

Sinuyama: Give them a unit like the Syuten Do(o)zi. Since the won't just scrap the nation.... :p

[Edratman2]

Two level one priest/mages for each nation: 1 with a single 100% random elemental and 1 with a single 100% random in sorcery. Gives all nations a shot at non-national paths, but doesn't make it easy.

[Zeldor]

Endratman2:

That is a serious topic.

[Endoperez]

There was a mod like that, already. It was something about guilds...

Or perhaps it was for DomII.

I can't remember any more details about that, but that sounds as a feasible project, but probably not as part of this one.

[Wrana]

Another thought: a possibility for positive-event spells for some nations, such as Arcocephale, Pythium, etc.
Plus, for Pythium & Marignon, at least, it would be thematic to get specific spells for their priest-mages (Astral-Holy & Fire-Holy, respectively).

[Sombre]

Edratman2 said:
Two level one priest/mages for each nation: 1 with a single 100% random elemental and 1 with a single 100% random in sorcery. Gives all nations a shot at non-national paths, but doesn't make it easy.



That's not really what this mod is about, since it would be a pretty huge change. It might make an interesting mod on its own though.



VedalkenBear said:
C'tis could use a troop or two that could be used with their Poison Slingers.



Bog beast cavalry ;]

Of your other ideas I rather like:

Marignon: Fire-resistant 'Guardian of the House of Justice' or maybe 'Justiciars'.

Machaka: A sacred troop that costs <100g. :p Poison Resistance would probably be the way to go. Perhaps give them a weapon that has a secondary effect of webbing the target? Hrm, basically sacred Bane Spider troops, it seems.

Caelum: A hybrid melee/ranged unit. That way, they could use hold/attack much better, and leverage the good precision Caelum gets on most of its units.

The Pythian communion troops wouldn't really work out. I had an idea for MA Pythium - Vanrangian Guard - Heavy Infantry Vans drawing inspiration from the ceremonial Varangian guard of byzantium. I'm thinking mapmove 1, castle def bonus, patrol bonus possibly, axes, overpriced to represent their rather ceremonial nature.


Wrana:
I think KO would like Mictlan to remain an infantry nation.
I like the idea of chariots for Eriu.
Tienchi fighting monks might be interesting, but there's no shortage of possibilities for TC.
Machaka can't have any lion based units because of the upcoming EA Machaka, but something like a Leopard or Hyena themed non sacred troop would be interesting. I'll look up some unusual african weapons too.
Bandar Log could perhaps do with an elite bandar infantry, since they are all about the bandar basically.

[Twan]

Edratman2 said:
Two level one priest/mages for each nation: 1 with a single 100% random elemental and 1 with a single 100% random in sorcery. Gives all nations a shot at non-national paths, but doesn't make it easy.



I've made a mod like that for middle age nations (it adds 2 recruitable mages with sorcery or elemental randoms).

It's there : http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=467360&page=3&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

(made 6 or 7 patches ago, I'm not sure it work correctly with actual version)

[cleveland]

Of the extensive list of nations I've played in MP (4), I found that MA Man had the most room for improvement.

MA Man has a pretty predictable strategy: recruit longbows & research Wind Guide. Its national summons included a bunch of unthematic death hounds, or some such nonsense.

As it stands, MA Man has only limited access to Water: capital-only Crones get a 26% shot at W1 and a 0.6% chance at W2. Summoning Naiads is an option, but they'd first need Const6 (for the W boosters), Conj5, and 35W gems...not very likely for a nation beelining for Alt5; plus Naiads aren't really combat-mages, as they lose HP & get afflictions when away from home.

I propose a Naiad-like summon for MA Man. It would be less magically powerful than the Conj5 Naiad (maybe W2N1), but won't lose HP on the move. It'll give Man Quickness for their longbows, open Voice of Aspu/Tiamet, provide a viable path into Water magic, and fit nicely into the King Arthur theme (Lady of the Lake).

Placing it in the Enchantment tree will give the player something to think about: Is Wind Guide now my only option?...Can I make Gift of Flight Work?...Cloud Trapeze? And the mod fulfills it's purpose.


-----------------
Initial design thoughts:

"Lady of the Lake" (or "Mother of the Lake," "Naiad of Avalon," "Lady of Avalon Lake," "Daughter of...etc")

W2N1 mage, 40 leadership, amphibian, Awe+0

Requires N3W1 to summon <font color="red"> (Edit: making it castable by 27% of Crones)</font>, 20N gems, maybe Ench4?

[Dedas]

cleveland said:
MA Man has a pretty predictable strategy: recruit longbows &amp; research Wind Guide. It's national summons included a bunch of unthematic death hounds, or some such nonsense.




Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_dog_%28ghost%29

And do you remember this old jewel?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hound_of_the_Baskervilles

[cleveland]

Wow, I suppose that makes a lot more sense.

BUT, MA Man needs to take a Death pretender to access those summons on any relevant timescale. I've never seen them in action (Black Dogs &amp; Barghests) so I can't comment if they're worth building a Pretender around.

[Zeldor]

I really don't like the whole concept of national spell not castable by national mages, even with a lot of boosters.

I hope Xietor will give MA Man to Kristoffer in mega-game so we can get that nation fixed after all. They are nice early but when mid-game starts they suck. Against almost everyone.

There should be also smth done with total domination of astral races. Especially over races that have absolutely no astral mages. But that is not for that mod.

[Dedas]

Well, the Ghost King (death magic) is a pretty good choice for MA Man, both thematically and in a strategic sense. Half cost temples will see to that many ghosts of old will haunt the misty highlands of Man. The Ghost King of long past Tuatha sees to that great black hounds hunt in the night (utterdark).
There, now MA Man can fight mid-late game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Zeldor]

You will get mind-hunted and trampled anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Wrana]

Must agree on national spells not castable by national mages.
To Sombre:
Mictlan - and what on Crocodile warriors? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Tien Chi - I see they are a great nation as they are, but you asked about all nations! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And fighting monks would be too similar to Warriors of 5 Elements, so I mentioned them only as an example... Of course, they would work, but won't add much..
Machaka - well, Zulusi actually DID use two-headed spears! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And African "throwing irons" are certainly weird enough, but I don't know what their stats should be, especially as chakram got so sucky ones. They also used many versions of swords, but these should all probably be equivalent to broadsword/falchion. Also they sometimes used a parrying club in left hand, but this probably wouldn't work... Another idea could be a unit with Seasonla power.. And what did you mean about Hyena? (there is also a possibility to rise up something from African Tertian fauna - as Nature summon or Death Enchantment...)
Bandar Log - they already have quite a few kinds of Bandar infantry. Elite Bandar should either get something special, or they won't be taken by anyone as normal Bandar are already stronger than normal human infantry, but even elite ones won't be on par with Vans or Abyssians...
Pythium - unfortunately, it uses Republican Rome as basis for its troops, not Byzantium. I would be glad to make it more Byzantian, but think it goes beyond the scope of this mod. And Vans, even infantry, I think would be almost the same degree of 'too much' as communion troops. Also, Pythium already has solid infantry. Maybe adding 'gladiatorial animals' other than Hydras would be better idea?

To All on Man:
Having no MP experience with it, I still tend to think of it as a solid nation. Also, I think that they were given weaker infantry specifically to compensate for greatness of Longbowmen. However, 'Witch' for me associates with dark (read: Death/Blood) magic. Maybe they should get some?

[Sombre]

That's a nice idea Cleveland. Well thought out and fits thematically.

What would make a nice recruitable troop for Man?

[Twan]

I'd like a good medium cavalry for Man, using sword + shield (high defense if protection is low). It would allow to have a fast troop not as ressource intensive as knights, and able to protect archers.

(I said light, but not as light as the actual bow/spear/buckler cavalry, something between them and the 50 ressources knights)

Or an ambidextrous elite infantry using 2 swords like the lord wardens (say wardens who have faulted and so are no longer sacred). An infantry with high dammage potential would make Man forces less crappy against ennemies able to protect their troops against arrows.

[Zeldor]

Wrana:

Unfortunatele I played them in MP. They suck big time. For that reasons:
- crones got mapmove reduced to 1
- no astral magic [that goes for many nations]
- crappy battle mages
- OLD AGE! on capitol mages, old age starts quite early and even with N4 old age is at 150, all crones start with age 155-175
- wardens are capitol only and resource heavy

There are of course some nice things, like cheap forts, cheap researchers, longbowmen.

What they need would be probably:
- make wardens non-sacred, but recruitable everywhere
- lord warden recruitable everywhere [he may stay sacred]
- maybe add stealthy shortbow units
- add water picks on crones and mothers of avalon
- replace daughter of avalon with something useful or take it out, really stupid and useless capitol-only cheap mage
- considerably lower age of crones [to around 100 years] so they do not die like flies
- make a 2nd random on Crone 50 or 100%, not 10% [so they have some better chance for A4]
- make summonable stealthy beasts

That way MA Man would have an alternative way to make a stealthy army with good backup from mothers and monks. Now that strategy with capitol only wardens is not available.

[cleveland]

Thank you very much.

A recruitable troop is a bit more difficult. Like Wrana said, they have inferior infantry because their longbowmen are so good; simply giving them a better infantry unit would be unbalancing, I think.

One possibility is to adapt the "Forester" commander (MA Man's scout) into some sort of rank-and-file troop. The Forester is an unusual but interesting commander: 2-weapons (axe &amp; dagger, ambidextrous) plus a short bow (at 12 precision), stealthy(+10), patrol bonus(5), forest survival, but no leadership.

How's this sound:
Forester Cadet
"Those who aspire to be Foresters must undergo rigorous training as Forester Cadets. Midway through their training, Cadets are pressed into active military service, usually to quell unrest and hunt down enemy spies, but occasionally as marksmen in support of the Wardens behind enemy lines. Cadets lack the hand-to-hand combat skills of true Foresters, but proved quite effective against the large Tuatha when in formation.”

The unit would then be a copystat of the Forester, with several ability reductions (they’re in training, after all):
<font color="brown">Edit: On second thought, I'd recommend keeping the axe/dagger/short bow combo of the base Forester, but remove the ambidextrous to make him bit less effective</font>
11 precision<font color="brown">(vs. base precision 12)</font> , so the short bow is somewhat less effective
Stealthy(+0) <font color="brown">(vs. base stealthy +10, though this has no effect for units)</font>
Patrol Bonus(1)<font color="brown">(vs. base Patrol Bonus(5) ) </font>
15gold? <font color="brown">(vs. base cost 20gold; a longbow costs 13gold, for comparison) </font>

Basically, this unit should make the MA Man player give serious consideration to stealth raiding. As it stands, MA Man is awash with stealthy commanders, but has only one stealthy troop, the Warden, which is capital-only sacred.

They’d be useless in large battles, where less-expensive longbows will be the preferred missile units and the lack of a shield will make them too vulnerable as blockers (shieldless=death by friendly fire), so no imbalance there.

But 2 weapons plus a bow gives them very nice stealth raiding potential, and in a pinch they can be thrown at giants/elephants for some six 6-attack-per-square action.

Thoughts? If nothing else, it gives the poor Forester unit some company, which currently seems so out-of-place.

[Sombre]

A unit themed around the Forester commander also sounds like a good idea. I'm not sure about the equipment and stats, but a middle tier mapmove 2 infantry/ranged unit with stealth and forest survival sounds good for MA Man. They are largely a forest based nation after all.

I'm quite tempted to go with minor animal awe actually - in Britain various animals such as wolves were hunted to extinction as the population grew - these forester themed units could be specifically trained to hunt down dangerous beasts. This of course would give them some more niche uses.

Also - wolfhounds. These fit with the Camelot/Round Table influence and the general feel of Man. Also act as a cheapo version of the summons.

[Wrana]

Personally I think Daughters being capital-only rather stupid idea. As recruitable everywhere they could be useful as cheap researchers...
Medium cavalry would be nice. Especially as English &amp; Scottish knights usually weared significantly less armor then their continental colleagues... due to the fact that their countries wern't exactly rich. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Hobilars of Scotch border weared armor but less than even local knights... though they usually fought on foot (but we need not go into these details). 2-sword infantry, I think, would be too much - or at least will look that way! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif What could be done is to give foresters some leadership. Stealthy bowmen I don't think would be particularly useful &amp; making Wardens non-sacred would be against the standing theme of the nation.

[Wrana]

Yes! Wolfhounds certainly! They'll also give some company to summons. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I'm not sure whether thay should be recruitable troops or summonable by Foresters, etc.
Another thing - as weapons for foresters-in-training I would offer quarterstaffs which would make them not particularly dangerous for dedicated melee troops, but able to defend themselves longer due to weapon Defense bonus. And these were actually used in England by both brigands &amp; those who hunted them! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Sombre]

I'm not making any changes to existing units if I can help it, that sort of stuff should be brought up in the CBM thread.

This is about adding a little content to each nation.


I'm dead-set against adding any unit with a quarterstaff because as far as I'm concerned it's a buggy weapon. The def stat on it is silly. But I don't want to get into that in this thread.

[Wrana]

What do you mean by silly? The weapon definitely IS very useful to defend with!

[Endoperez]

Wrana said:
What do you mean by silly? The weapon definitely IS very useful to defend with!



He thinks it's like a spear without the sharp part, and thus shouldn't give any more defense than a spear. I tried to argue that it isn't used like a spear, but let's not repeat that discussion here. As Sombre said, this isn't the thread for that.

[Wrana]

Well, if he wants to use that as argument here, he shouldn't think that I will take it as Holy Writ. Either he should argue his point or just drop it.

[VedalkenBear]

I tend to agree with Wrana on this issue. If no 'quarterstaff' units can be even suggested without being rejected, the underlying issue needs to be addressed.

[Sombre]

Hahah, what? Drop it? So if I don't argue the point in this thread I have to concede and do what you tell me?

Good luck with getting that to work.

[Dedas]

This is fun reading. Thank you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Endoperez]

I'd give the Huntsman hatchet, dagger and shortbow. Whether or not the staff would fit a British low-born warrior, the unit is modeled after Forester, and thus should should be ambidextrous dual-wielder.

[Sombre]

Yeah an axe/dagger/shortbow does make sense. Makes it quite an unusual troop too, while similar to the LA Ulmish rangers.

[Sombre]

Sorry, I did mean hatchet. I don't pay much attention to the order weapons actually resolve in though and I'm not sure I want to start now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Endoperez]

Here's what I wrote, in an other thread.

Also, I meant hatchet (253), not an axe. Hatchet is dam 5, att/def 0, len 1, while axe is dam 7, att/def -1, len 1. Hatchet is clearly much better than a normal axe.

Also, dagger/hatchet is better than hatchet/dagger, because this way the dagger's weaker strike lowers defence and makes it more likely the more powerful weapon hits.


Yeah, I was pretty sure you knew what I meant, I just wanted to be sure. I'm not even sure if there are any units armed with a hatchet in base game. It's pretty rare.

[Wrana]

To Sombre:
Well, either you are going to discuss the question or not. If you are going to discuss it than do this. If not, than I personally am not going to take your prejudices as arguments on any other questions.
Do you have any meaningful objections against using a weapon already existing in the game in the mod? Or are you going to use the immortal I-see-it-so argument ad nauseum? I'm certainly not going to take such "arguments" or stop making my point of view on silliness of such clear.
Remain yours truly,
Wrana

[Wrana]

To Endoperez:
Well, ambidexterity is a learned skill. You can consider that their apprentices hadn't learned it currently... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

There are units armed with hatchet. IIRC, Bear Tribe Warriors &amp; some other tribesmen.
And while from the mechanical point of view dagger/hatchet IS better, this is what I would call silly - primary weapon used in off-hand!

[Sombre]

Wrana said:
Well, either you are going to discuss the question or not. If you are going to discuss it than do this. If not, than I personally am not going to take your prejudices as arguments on any other questions.




As I said before, this thread isn't the place for a discussion of the quarterstaff as a weapon. So no, I'm not going to discuss it.

As for you not 'taking my prejudices as arguments'; I don't care. I'm not here to influence your opinion on anything.



Do you have any meaningful objections against using a weapon already existing in the game in the mod? Or are you going to use the immortal I-see-it-so argument ad nauseum? I'm certainly not going to take such "arguments" or stop making my point of view on silliness of such clear.



Immortal I-see-it-so argument? I'm not familiar with that one. Astral hook, devour soul and tiny bite are already in the game. I can categorically state I'm not using any of those in this mod either. For different reasons, but again I don't feel the need to justify them to you.

I asked people for input and I've gotten some great feedback, but if you want more than that, to exert creative control or demand justifiation, you'll have to either pay me or make your own mod -shrug-

[Zeldor]

Sombre:

Ok, I understand most of my things are rather suggestion for CBM. Making wardens non-sacred and build-everywhere is no option for CCM either?

And there are many people throwing ideas around, do you have a task-list of some specific things that should be done?

[Aezeal]

I think this thread is just for completely new units for nations... all other stuff including adjusting existing units is for CBM

[Wrana]

Immortal I-see-it-so argument? I'm not familiar with that one.


It sounds like this: I'm the painter, I see it so. Usually given than someone says that in reality something doesn't look like what was drawn. Also quite usable for writers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
As for your mod, you asked for opinions. If you meant from the beginning that something-or-other was never meant to be in your mod, it would be better if you would list these from the beginning.
And about no place for this discussion - possibly you would kindly list THE place for it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Sawyer]

I don't suppose we could give the Woodsman/Huntsman troop a short-ranged armor-piercing bow, could we?
I guess the idea would be to give Man a way of offsetting the weaknesses of the longbowmen that would require the player to think for them to be useful. You could waylay expensive troops so that your longbowmen on the battle lines wouldn't have to deal with them, or you could put them up close to take out enemy heavies, hopefully without dying in the process.

[hunt11]

bogarus needs another sacred, their current sacred can be used in unique ways but you need a lot of them, and on the battle field they are just cannon fodder

[Aezeal]

The weaknesses of the longbowmen????
The weaknesses of the longbowmen????

plz ignore sawyer

[Sombre]

Longbowmen do have weaknesses. Pythian infantry kick the crap out of them for instance.

[Aezeal]

sure but to give a nation with the strongest archery in the game even stronger archery options is kinda strange.

[Sawyer]

Meh. Archery isn't going to win any games. Make the archers exorbitant and give them a very short range so that alone they'll only be able to get one shot on their targets before they're engaged in melee, and make them suck at melee.
As much as I love longbowmen they're near-powerless against heavy troops until you research and empower up to flaming arrows. It would be interesting to see what happens when we give Man a hard-to-use solution to this.

Maybe it's not a good idea, but I'd like to see it play out, I guess.

[Wrana]

BTW, "short-range AP bow" would be absolutly no help against tower shields... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
On Bogarus - I've heard that currently MA factions are discussed. For Bogarus I made special mod splitting this nation into 2, which can be downloaded. However, it's not finished &amp; currently has no graphics. Will probably be updated soon &amp; I will mention some of its ideas here when the discussion will move to LA factions.

[Sombre]

MA Arcoscephale
Slingers based on Rhodes?
Archers based on cretans?

MA Mictlan
Recruitable atlatl (double range jav) armed infantry
Serpent/snake warrior sacreds? With poison res obviously

MA Eriu
Firbolg Fian – heroic elite firbolg with forest survival, standard (3), javs/melee
Gallowglass – foreign humans with axe + heavyish armour
Milisian kern – armed with darts (lighter javs with longer range)

MA Man
Forester recruitable – hatchet, dagger, shortbow, medium armour, forest survival, patrolbonus 1, stealth, animal awe 0/1 (also give animal awe to forester leader). Backstory is that they were formed to protect Man from invaders, brigands, rampaging animals and beasts, as well as raid the enemy to pre-empt attacks. A real all-rounder with no great strength or weakness.
Possibly wolfhounds? Non stealthy, patrolbonus 1, +1 supply, forestsurvival, similar stats to wolf. Could be summoned by a commander, recruitable, or a nature summon.

MA Marignon
Justicar – religious guards/police with fire res, good armour, mace + shield (sacred or not?) wear robes of their religious order over their armour

MA Machaka
Cheaper sacred troop? Leopard / Hyena warrior cults might be interesting, but anything sacred would certainly have to be related to spiders

MA Caelum
A hybrid missile / melee troop of some sort – might actually be used well by AI if given ammo of 2 or 3 – will fire off all ammo then attack

MA Ulm
Arbalest+tower shield ‘pavise’ unit?
Ulmish ‘Militia’ – very different from most militia, expected to hold off enemies until the slow moving regular Ulmish forces can arrive, so have to be less crap. Medium armour and halberds – even have fort def bonus of 1. All for a low gold price and (relative to other ulmish) low resources too.



EA Tirnanog
Attacotti berserker – A primitive tribe of naked berserk cannibals released in battle by the tuatha – they are like gladiators in that they are usable for only one battle?
Chariot – light/small, driver+jav chucker, not a trampler?



Spell ideas


A fireball that when it lands summons a small fire elemental – could be an excellent spell for abysia

Marignon – a holy/fire advanced version of bonds of fire – trial of fire, test of faith etc – can also throw in a panic effect or fear effect for extra synergy

W/D – Chilling bolt – frost bolt + fear effect, high prec

Spells that immobilise + cloud effects. You could have bonds of fire + sulfur cloud, tangle vines + leeching darkness (could be a great one for pangaea)


Earth gem using teleport spell – Agartha?

Battlefield wide resist elements – TC?

[Drysh]

I made this for EA Mictlan, but maybe it would fit MA too. A were jaguar (commander). I gave him the ability to shapechange at will into a jaguar. The description: "Some Jaguar Warriors remain forever in their half-jaguar form and loose their ability to turn back to human form. These rare warriors are taken to the temple and trained as priests and leaders to command the other Jaguar Warriors. They may shapechange at will into a true jaguar, and use this ability when they need to be stealthy."

[Wrana]

MA Arcoscephale
Slingers based on Rhodes?
Archers based on cretans?


Unfortunately slings have crap stats in Dom3. So while Greeks certainly had very effective slingers, in game terms these would have to have very high precision to compensate, which in turn would require them to be very costly for missilers (or they'll have to have somewhat better slings?). They can have shields, however... Elite archers should probably be capital only. Maybe it would be better to make something like RTW "heavy peltasts" which could actually hold their own in melee?

MA Mictlan
Recruitable atlatl (double range jav) armed infantry
Serpent/snake warrior sacreds? With poison res obviously


Atlatl would be fine, especially if they have more ammo also. And why do you not like Crocodiles (snake themed sacreds are present in C'tis, after all)?

MA Eriu
Firbolg Fian – heroic elite firbolg with forest survival, standard (3), javs/melee
Gallowglass – foreign humans with axe + heavyish armour
Milisian kern – armed with darts (lighter javs with longer range)


Honestly I don't like the latter two. And why don't you want to include chariots here instead of EA???

Possibly wolfhounds? Non stealthy, patrolbonus 1, +1 supply, forestsurvival, similar stats to wolf. Could be summoned by a commander, recruitable, or a nature summon.


They should be a little better than wolf - they are selected as wolf-hunters, after all... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Marignon – a holy/fire advanced version of bonds of fire – trial of fire, test of faith etc – can also throw in a panic effect or fear effect for extra synergy


That's excellent! While cloud+immobilisation would probably be too much. Unless it's for high level?

Earth gem using teleport spell – Agartha?


Fine idea, but probably would have to be of somewhat higher level than normal Teleport...

Battlefield wide resist elements – TC?


Probably Ulm too?

I made this for EA Mictlan, but maybe it would fit MA too. A were jaguar (commander). I gave him the ability to shapechange at will into a jaguar.


This I think a neat idea.
Another thought on MA Mictlan (probably C'tis as well) - is a spell which releases an arrow &amp; then summons a snake at the point of contact possible? With a low-level making 1 arrow-snake &amp; high-level many, similar to Vine Arrow/Storm of Thorns?

[Sombre]

Unfortunately slings have crap stats in Dom3. So while Greeks certainly had very effective slingers, in game terms these would have to have very high precision to compensate, which in turn would require them to be very costly for missilers (or they'll have to have somewhat better slings?). They can have shields, however... Elite archers should probably be capital only. Maybe it would be better to make something like RTW "heavy peltasts" which could actually hold their own in melee?




I think I'd pay a bit more gold for slingers with high prec and a few other stat boosts. Obviously they'd be a niche unit - anti low prot troops. They could deal slightly more damage with their slings, reflecting either increased accuracy or better quality of stones. Another major advantage would be 2 mapmove, since they aren't 'militia'.


And why do you not like Crocodiles (snake themed sacreds are present in C'tis, after all)?




I suggest snake themed sacreds because MA Mictlan is based around flying snakes and has a serpent sacred national summon. Crocodiles just don't seem to come into it.


Honestly I don't like the latter two. And why don't you want to include chariots here instead of EA???




Because chariots were present in the early history of Irish warfare and in Dom3 are generally an EA thing.



They should be a little better than wolf - they are selected as wolf-hunters, after all... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif




Dogs used to hunt wolves would obviously outnumber them. They were also used to hunt bears.


Probably Ulm too?



TC are masters of the elements. Ulm aren't even close to that.


Another thought on MA Mictlan (probably C'tis as well) - is a spell which releases an arrow &amp; then summons a snake at the point of contact possible? With a low-level making 1 arrow-snake &amp; high-level many, similar to Vine Arrow/Storm of Thorns?



Probably possible and a nice idea. I tink I'd make it a poison arrow rather than a tangle arrow though.

[Wrana]

They could deal slightly more damage with their slings, reflecting either increased accuracy or better quality of stones. Another major advantage would be 2 mapmove, since they aren't 'militia'.


Professional slingers used lead (or even sometimes bronze) bullets made in a form. Description may mention this as a justification... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif 2 mapmove would be certainly very useful, I've forgot about it.

I suggest snake themed sacreds because MA Mictlan is based around flying snakes and has a serpent sacred national summon. Crocodiles just don't seem to come into it.


Possibly. But crocodile-skin armor was certainly used in Mesoamerica. And even poor amphibian unit would be a strategic advantage (even if non-sacred). While considering snakes... Possibly poison protection would be sinergetic with sacred Toads - but it would have to be 100% &amp; this could be too good..

Because chariots were present in the early history of Irish warfare and in Dom3 are generally an EA thing.


Well, Ireland is Eriu. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And chariots remained there almost until 16th century iirc. Here it would represent more archaic nature of their army which is compensated by magic &amp; inborn high quality of Tuatha/Sidhe warriors. While in EA they would be redundant - Sidhe surely have no problem with most human infantry (&amp; charioters wouldn't get to use their higher weapon abilties, except against other chariots)!

Dogs used to hunt wolves would obviously outnumber them. They were also used to hunt bears.


Well, that's not the case with wolfhounds &amp; other such kinds of dog. They are specialized to be better than wolf 1-on-1 (for wolves, being no fools, will just make strategic retreat http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif if presented with too much dogs), Irish wolfhounds at least are also faster than wolves on the run - for the same reason. They are however, less clever &amp; have somewhat worse health as their life presents more protection from the elements - but this is represented by them having no stealth, but patrolling instead... I wouldn't probably give them supply, but it certainly has a nice synergy with massed archers... At the same time hounds used against bears were used just to draw their attention from the hunter - completely different specialization. In Russian, they were even named differently than above-mentioned type though in English they are both "hounds". Another type of dogs sometimes used to fight bears (but only after bear was already caught) was bulldog-type - still another specialization! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

TC are masters of the elements. Ulm aren't even close to that.


Certainly. But as their MA theme is anti-magic, they could get such specialized thing. Probably with Holy requirement? And they sure as hell need this much more than Tien Chi! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Probably possible and a nice idea. I tink I'd make it a poison arrow rather than a tangle arrow though.


Yes, of course snake-themed arrow should be poisonous rather than entangling! I just used an example to illustrate having two kinds of such a spell with different levels. Sorry if misunderstanding occurred.

Another thought: I personally find an idea that Vans or Tuatha would worship a human Pretender somewhat illogical. It would probably be good to give such races Rainbow-type Pretenders from their own kind. Something similar to this is made with C'tis having Saurolich, and giant-types having their own mage-kings as Pretanders. Note that I don't want such Pretenders to be SCs - just mages of appropriate races, with primal paths appropriate to them, human size &amp; racial bonuses... It's OK if they will be more costly than other Rainbows - they just need to be here.

[Sombre]

Wrana said:
Well, Ireland is Eriu. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And chariots remained there almost until 16th century iirc. Here it would represent more archaic nature of their army which is compensated by magic &amp; inborn high quality of Tuatha/Sidhe warriors. While in EA they would be redundant - Sidhe surely have no problem with most human infantry (&amp; charioters wouldn't get to use their higher weapon abilties, except against other chariots)!




Tirnanog is as much ireland as Eriu is. I don't see how they're redundant in EA. One of the tuatha/sidhe heroes uses a chariot, for example. Additionally I'm not sure I'd even make them tramplers, given that all descriptions I've read of celtic chariots stress they were fairly light and more of a rapid deployment/ranged skirmish troop than a scythed trampler.

I don't think that the century in which weapons were used is important, more where they fit in the general military evolution of the source nation. Dom3 puts greek hoplites and plate armoured germanic knights in the same era after all. But again, this isn't the thread to discuss that.


I'm not doing anything with pretenders.

[Wrana]

And where is the thread to discuss, pray tell, or mighty one? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
As for scythed chariots - they were actually used only in one region, &amp; this was Persia at about 4th century BC, i.e., after Greek (&amp; Egyptian) phalanxes became problem. Hellenistic states sometimes used them for the same reason, but after their subjugation by Rome the problem itself disappeared as Romans didn't use phalanxes. Though I had heard that Britts used such, but source was probably mistaken... At the same time the game uses archer chariots (modelled after Egyptian/Hettite) as tramplers.
And the general military evolution of the source nation included chariots almost throughout history. They certainly didn't disappear by historical times! I am aware that Cu Chulain uses chariot in EA, but how much is it needed by this nation?

[Foodstamp]

As far as we know, Irish chariots were used in the following manner:

Move onto the field with driver and warrior.

Warrior throws some spears and hops off the chariot.

Chariot moves off the field.

Warrior kills people in teh phace.

Warrior gets in trouble.

Chariot picks him up.

Warrior moves off the field to rest, reload, whatever.

Rinse, repeat.

Here is a great article concerning chariot warfare written by one of our historians at WFGs:

Chariots in Warfare and Entertainment (http://wildfiregames.com/0ad/page.php?p=11609)

Feel free to use any of the articles as a reference for your mod.

[Sombre]

Wrana said:
And where is the thread to discuss, pray tell, or mighty one? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif




Mighty one? I don't think I'm being unreasonable here. This thread is for recruit / spell suggestions for a mod I'm making. If you want a thread to discuss what centuries the different eras in dom3 cover or the merits of the quarterstaff as a melee weapon make it yourself.



At the same time the game uses archer chariots (modelled after Egyptian/Hettite) as tramplers.




Good point. I guess all chariots should be tramplers, though clearly some will suck at it due to low prot/hp.



And the general military evolution of the source nation included chariots almost throughout history. They certainly didn't disappear by historical times! I am aware that Cu Chulain uses chariot in EA, but how much is it needed by this nation?



Why does Eriu need a chariot more than Tirnanog?

I'll think about doing a firbolg one for Eriu and a Sidhe/Tuatha one for Tir, but I'm not really sold that they belong in MA.

[Endoperez]

While general resistance to elements isn't really that good fit, Earth spell to counter lightning would be nice. The two-handed Iron Rod already conveys lightning immunity. Battlefield-wide lightning resistance coupled with some other useful effect would fit Ulm well, IMO. Battlefield-wide Legions of Steel or Strength of Giants and 50% or 75% lightning resistance would be pretty nifty.

[Sombre]

Good idea endo.

I was thinking about a mounted missile unit for MA Ulm too. Probably a mounted crossbow guy who can also melee a bit.

[Starshine_Monarch]

I sort of had an idea for LA Jomon since they don't seem to be getting a whole lot of attention. For instance, most Ashigaru used not only they Yari, but the Katana and Naginata as well, so you could add Ashigaru units using these weapons, possibly toning town the quality of the Ashigaru katanas if needed.

As a bit of incentive for buying samurai swordsmen as opposed to just samurai archers, I was thinking of adding different types of Samurai, O-Ban and Aka-Oni Samurai that feature an extra special attack loosely based on certain sword technique or schools. These would probably be weapons usable only once per battle. Not many professional soldiers are likely to fall for the same technique twice in a row.

I'm not sure how one-shot weapons like Lances work entirely though. For instance, if a one-shot weapon carries a penalty to defense, would the wielder still have the defense penalty once that weapon has been used for the battle, or would the penalty go away once it has been used?

If the latter is true, we could try having a samurai use a Batt&amp;#333;jutsu technique to draw his sword and make a cut in a single fluid motion. This would be represented as a high damage, high att, one-shot strike that carries a penalty to defense as, since the sword is still in the scabbard before he attacks, he has nothing to parry an incoming attack with.


I also had the idea of adding several unique and multi-heroes already in possession of a high quality magic weapon or that use a special technique unique to them or their school. For example, I had in mind a couple of unique Ninja heroes. One is an extremely skilled assassin that had come across an evil sword forged by a demon called Muramasa. The assassin has no hand slots, so he cannot use any weapons other than the sword. The sword is also incredibly bloodthirsty and the ninja has the effect of casting "Berserkers" on himself at the start of the battle when the sword is drawn. This way, during an assassination attempt, the ninja MUST either kill his target or die. Fortunately, due to it's voracious thirst for blood and extreme quality of workmanship, the Muramasa Blade also has the Armor Piercing and Heart Finding qualities.

[Endoperez]

It is possible to add light lance-like bonus damage to first attack to any weapon via modding. Katana with little extra damage for the first strike wouldn't be hard to do, but since the damage is based on APs it might be too small of a bonus to form the basis of an entirely new unit.

[Wrana]

I don't think I'm being unreasonable here. This thread is for recruit / spell suggestions for a mod I'm making.


And how do you name the situation when you doesn't allow arguments in support of an opposite point of view? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Or do you prefer just trading points of view without any logical arguments? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I understand that you are going to make most work at the end, but using this as end-all-be-all argument is precisely the tendency I said about earlier.

I guess all chariots should be tramplers, though clearly some will suck at it due to low prot/hp.


Yes, certainly.

Why does Eriu need a chariot more than Tirnanog?


They have not so good infantry as Tirnanog &amp; have stronger opponents due to better armor &amp; appearance of heavy cavalry, of course!

but I'm not really sold that they belong in MA.


And why not? As I've said, Irish armies were somewhat archaic all the time. And Arcoscephale, for example, has no cavalry until LA, which is also adjudicated as their military being somewhat archaic. Also, Eriu's difficult history together with isolation would be quite able to conservate similar archaism (just like in real history! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ).

While general resistance to elements isn't really that good fit, Earth spell to counter lightning would be nice


Fine. I'm not that good in balancing possibly, but I can see that armor-negating lightning could be the main problem for heavy Ulmits.

Here is a great article concerning chariot warfare written by one of our historians at WFGs:

Chariots in Warfare and Entertainment


Thanks a lot, Foodstamp. I have some sources as well, but they are in Russian for the most part..
Unfortunately, the article enforces a mistaken impression about "most other chariot users" using chariots as "charging weapon" - but is quite correct about the source of Caesar's description.. If you want, I can compile/translate something for your site. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Sombre]

Wrana said:
And how do you name the situation when you doesn't allow arguments in support of an opposite point of view? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Or do you prefer just trading points of view without any logical arguments? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I understand that you are going to make most work at the end, but using this as end-all-be-all argument is precisely the tendency I said about earlier.




I do elaborate on my views when it's appropriate and I'm happy for there to be discussion in this thread which is relevant and moves things forward. The incentive to make suggestions is that if I like them I will almost certainly put them into the mod. You then get to use the mod and hey, your cool idea is right there in the game. Everyone wins. I can certainly be brought around to a different point of view. A suggestion I had doubts about initially could be argued for in such a way that I 'see the light'.

That kind of discussion is fine. Ultimately though, I don't need to justify myself. I can and usually will, but if I don't the end result is the same - I make what I like. If this were a team effort things would be different, but it isn't. I'm not going to 'make most work at end'; barring something unforseen I'm going to be doing all of it.


Regarding chariots: The light missile chariot in question would in no way be a counter to heavy infantry or cavalry. If anything it would be far more effective in EA. I don't really see how Eriu's more expensive/elite infantry has anything to do with it either. I see chariot use as more of an early irish/celtic/sidhe thing, with Eriu modernising somewhat (though not much). I take the point that Eriu are still rather backward though.

S_M: I'm not doing heroes or multiheroes. I'm also focusing on MA at the moment. I have a few ideas for LA Jomon. A missile weapon Ashigaru might be interesting.

[Foodstamp]

Wrana,

We are always looking for fan submitted material. Feel free to submit something to me at jshores (at) wildfiregames (dot) com. If it is quality work, I will make sure it gets posted in the appropriate section http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

[Wrana]

To Sombre:
I see. BTW, was Conceptual Balance a cooperative one?
Light chariot can work against haevy infantry - in _almost_ the same way as heavy cav - which was why I mentioned the latter. And elite infantry makes the need for such units less because it can crush non-elite infantry troops on their own. A real-life example could be Greeks &amp; Romans which had weak cavalry with one of the reasons being that their heavy infantry could beat almost anybody who hadn't similar one. When Hellenistic states started to war against each other, though, they started to seek counter-measures against such infantry - using ballistas, heavy cavalry (cataphraktes), scythed chariots and elephantes. I see Sidhe of Tirnanog as being in similar situation - initially their infantry can beat most opponents on their own (for their neighbors and main opponents are Fomors and probably Marverni).
Pity about heroes - I get an idea for MA (most probably) Arcoscephales - an Athlete - sacred low-Leadership commander with high stats, armed with cestes (2h, 2 att, otherwise similar to Gloves of Gladiators, but non-magical) + koppo, with background of an aristocrat trained from childhood to take part in sacred games (such as Olympic ones) and going to use gained skills in war.. It can be used as recruitable commander (you didn't mean them also?) or even as troop, but the latter seems wrong for me.

To Foodstamp: thanks, I'll send something in a week possibly.

[Zeldor]

Any progress? It got on 2nd page...

Wrana:
CBM is QM's project. So he made all decisions but well, he was accepting ideas. Sombre is accepting ideas too, but it is up to him if he takes any of them. And when that mod is complete it may be implemented as a part of CBM, like WH was.

But here comes my idea:
TREELORDS!

Today my blind treelord won with Abomination of Desolation. So I realised they are not so bad. So my idea is to make them immobile SC stoppers. Something to give nature nations a way to defend.

I would like to see about 5 levels of treelors, at 10N, 20N, 30N, 40N, 50N [all non-unique] + couple unique ones at 50-75N. Unique ones could be those that we have now but with really big buffs. Maybe with ability to use Faery Trod for free, while still being immobile...
All of them would need a lot of HP, big regen, nice reinvigoration, decent MR. On higher levels they could also get other magic picks [e.x. Swamp Treelord with water and death].
The only problem is that you wouldn't be able to set them to patrol outside fort. I guess there is no way to go around that, so price for immobiles should also reflect that.

[MaxWilson]

You could always put them in provinces where there is no fort--or tear down the fort...

[Sombre]

This mod is on hold simply due to my lack of time.

It's behind Lizardmen and other stuff in terms of priority so sorry to let anyone down but I wouldn't go holding your breath for it.