Warning! Do NOT apply XP SP 3!

[Baron Munchausen]

http://tech.slashdot.org/tech/08/05/09/1258229.shtml

Windows XP SP3 Creating Havoc

ozmanjusri writes "According to Information Week, within hours of its wide availability Windows XP SP3 had drawn hundreds of complaints from users who claim the update is wreaking havoc on their computers. One user said in a Microsoft newsgroup: 'I downloaded and installed [the SP3] package for IT Professionals and Developers on one of my computers. Now I can't get the computer to boot. I don't think Microsoft should have made this a critical update.' Other sites including IT Wire are also reporting problems, which include include random reboots or the inability to boot at all."

[Ed Kolis]

Didn't SP2 cause this same scare? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[MrToxin]

People still use Windows? :V

[Fyron]

Sites like slashdot are always going out of their way to post sensationalist crap like this... wait until more reputable sources weigh in.

[Atrocities]

MS - "There ain't nut'in wrong with XP SP 3. Say for all the PC crashing bugs and crap." I sincerely hope my computers do not perform an auto update before I can turn that process off. Better to be safe than sorry. I have learned all to many times that when it comes to sensationalist crap regarding MS, its often true. The great Atrocities PC crashs of 2002, and 2004 are offered up as proof of this.

[Atrocities]

Does this count as a more reliable source? http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,2302371,00.asp

[Atrocities]

"At this point, I want to clarify that the endless rebooting is not at all related to SP3 per se," Johansson wrote. "The problem is that with some configurations, SP3 causes the computer to crash during boot, and Windows XP, by default, is set up to automatically reboot when it crashes. That is why you end up in the endless rebooting scenario."

Well thats just peachy.

[Azselendor]

Didn't microsoft make a statement saying this is related computers with a certain piece of software installed?

[Xrati]

Yes, they did. I beleive that Micro$oft blamed it on SE5! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Always turn off your auto update. I have mine set on notify me and I'll choose what and when.
I too learned the hard way, after updating to IE7 /threads/images/Graemlins/Grenade.gif
and happily http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif getting the "BLUE SCREEN OF DEATH" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif
and the inability to ever recover the system to where it ran right, /threads/images/Graemlins/Hammer.gif
causing a complete reinstall of Windows.........

Could we use that for a new syndrome name? /threads/images/Graemlins/icon45.gif

[AgentZero]

I tried updating to SP3 a few days ago. Didn't get too far. I created a nice little screenshot compilation of the joys of Windows update, I'll throw it up here when I get home.

Then of course there's my classmate who tried to apply SP1 for Vista, and it took three days for it to reach 100% complete, another 4 hours before it told him that the update had failed and it was reverting it's changes, and then another two hours for it to crash and for him to find out that his Vista installation was completely borked and would require a full format & reinstall.

[Jack Simth]

Me, I'm thinking it's a new Microsoft advertisement in favor of Linux.

[MrToxin]

Easiest way to deal with something like this is to install Windows on a separate harddrive and keep your paging somewhere other than where Windows installs. You know...install Windows on a small partition that you put nothing else on. Ever. That way, when something breaks (even Linux isn't perfect, kids) you can just reinstall it without too much worry. Yes, it's a bit of a pain but, for the best computer results, you should format and reinstall like once a year anyway.

[Jack Simth]

No, Linux isn't perfect. It is, however, considerably more stable than any MS box I've worked with. Software can't really deal with a hard disk crash - you pretty much need some amount of hardware redundancy to deal with that. Hard disk crashes are inevitable - they're physical devices that wear out. Back up all important data and settings, keep an OS disk on hand, and you're set.

[Atrocities]

Jack Simth said:
Me, I'm thinking it's a new Microsoft advertisement in favor of Linux.



Micro$oft, we design the bugs into every OS so you don't have to worry whether or not you'll get the blue screen of death, its pretty much guaranteed.

[AgentZero]

I do have to say though, that other than Windows Update, I've never had any serious problems with any of my Windows machines. I think part of the problem is, and I don't mean to sound like more of an elitist d-bag than usual, but I know how to take care of my computer. I don't mean things like defragging, AV (haven't had a resident AV in 4 years http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif), or firewalls, but rather I avoid doing things that I know will cause problems down the road.

I've been asked to have a look at plenty of computers that are fumtu, and the vast majority of the time I find things like multiple different AV programs, a few firewalls, a dozen different music players, a plethora of CD/DVD creation software, and a multitude of programs the user doesn't even know the purpose of. And then these same people blame Windows and/or Microsoft for all of their woes. Yet strangely enough, if I ask them if they think a car with 4 different tires and a V6 engine with an extra three pistons welded on and the exhaust manifold piped into the turbo charger would run very well. Inevitably I get an answer along the lines of "Of course not, what kind of stupid question is that?" And when I follow up by asking whether they'd blame the manufacturer if they'd performed those modifications themselves, I usually get the same answer.

I find it a bit funny that the same people who would never dream of putting oil in the gas tank or KY Jelly to lubricate their engine seem to have no compunctions about performing equally damaging acts to their software, and then blaming Microsoft when it goes pearshaped. Although I suppose one great advantage I have is that I'm the only one who uses my computer. If more than one person is using the computer, one might as well consign themselves to a format/re-install every six months, at least.

I suppose another part of it is that the hardware in the vast majority of home computers is ****e. I know most people on this forum are quite happy building their own machines, but most people just go out to Best Buy and get the cheapest machine that'll do the job they want. Of course, such machine's specs are designed purely to answer the 3 Big Questions most people have when buying a computer: What kind of processor is it? How big is the hard drive does it have? How much RAM does it have? And sometimes: What kind of graphics card does it have? People rarely ask who made the hard drive or the RAM, what type of motherboard is in there, and more importantly, what type and who made the power supply. Which means that these tend to be where the people who build the computers cut corners.

Then you have people coming back to the store a few months later claiming (and I've heard these all myself), "Windows burnt out my power supply", "Windows corrupted my RAM", "Stupid Microsoft fried my hard drive". Could the problem be that you have a $30 power supply, 2GB of RAM that didn't cost more than $10, and a 500GB hard drive that only added $20 to the price tag? No! It must be Microsoft!

No, Windows isn't perfect, and sometimes Microsoft can be a bit of a collective douchebag (http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/04/24/Dell-to-keep-xp-available_1.html) but there's still a pretty hefty list of things they not only get right, but get right better than Linux and/or Macs.

Hmm... I suppose an /endrant is appropriate here.

[capnq]

Azselendor said: Didn't microsoft make a statement saying this is related computers with a certain piece of software installed?

Yes, that's one of the problems they've already admitted to. This blog (http://www.news.com/8301-13860_3-9931343-56.html) is one of the places I've found that describes that issue.

I was planning to wait at least week before installing XP SP3, to give the early adopters time to find the bugs. I've seen people recommend waiting as much as nine months. OTOH, I've also seen blog comments from people who were pleasantly surprised that SP3 installed for them without a hitch.

[Azselendor]

I waited 3 months on service pack 2

[Xrati]

This just might be Micro$oft's way of sabotaging XP so it will make Vista look better! Nothing worse than coming out with a new O$ that nobody wants... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

[Jack Simth]

AgentZero said:
I do have to say though, that other than Windows Update, I've never had any serious problems with any of my Windows machines. I think part of the problem is, and I don't mean to sound like more of an elitist d-bag than usual, but I know how to take care of my computer. I don't mean things like defragging, AV (haven't had a resident AV in 4 years http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif), or firewalls, but rather I avoid doing things that I know will cause problems down the road.

I've been asked to have a look at plenty of computers that are fumtu, and the vast majority of the time I find things like multiple different AV programs, a few firewalls, a dozen different music players, a plethora of CD/DVD creation software, and a multitude of programs the user doesn't even know the purpose of. And then these same people blame Windows and/or Microsoft for all of their woes. Yet strangely enough, if I ask them if they think a car with 4 different tires and a V6 engine with an extra three pistons welded on and the exhaust manifold piped into the turbo charger would run very well. Inevitably I get an answer along the lines of "Of course not, what kind of stupid question is that?" And when I follow up by asking whether they'd blame the manufacturer if they'd performed those modifications themselves, I usually get the same answer.

I find it a bit funny that the same people who would never dream of putting oil in the gas tank or KY Jelly to lubricate their engine seem to have no compunctions about performing equally damaging acts to their software, and then blaming Microsoft when it goes pearshaped. Although I suppose one great advantage I have is that I'm the only one who uses my computer. If more than one person is using the computer, one might as well consign themselves to a format/re-install every six months, at least.

I suppose another part of it is that the hardware in the vast majority of home computers is ****e. I know most people on this forum are quite happy building their own machines, but most people just go out to Best Buy and get the cheapest machine that'll do the job they want. Of course, such machine's specs are designed purely to answer the 3 Big Questions most people have when buying a computer: What kind of processor is it? How big is the hard drive does it have? How much RAM does it have? And sometimes: What kind of graphics card does it have? People rarely ask who made the hard drive or the RAM, what type of motherboard is in there, and more importantly, what type and who made the power supply. Which means that these tend to be where the people who build the computers cut corners.

Then you have people coming back to the store a few months later claiming (and I've heard these all myself), "Windows burnt out my power supply", "Windows corrupted my RAM", "Stupid Microsoft fried my hard drive". Could the problem be that you have a $30 power supply, 2GB of RAM that didn't cost more than $10, and a 500GB hard drive that only added $20 to the price tag? No! It must be Microsoft!



Do note:
You can install several music players and sets of CD/DVD creation software just fine on a Linux box. For that matter, a Knoppix CD comes with several sets of both pre-installed and linked in the start menu. A few different internet browsers, too.

The computer I'm working on was previously a Vista box. The second time I had to do a factory restore in a month (and I seriously installed exactly two piece of software - Firefox and (the second time around) a CD burner) I was basically just using it to browse the net. Otherwise, all software was factory installed.) I installed Linux, instead.

Haven't had a problem since. I've even got a copy of the OS on a second drive, all ready to go, in case my hard disk crashes.

Now, granted, the thread's primarily about XP... but still...

AgentZero said:

No, Windows isn't perfect, and sometimes Microsoft can be a bit of a collective douchebag (http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/04/24/Dell-to-keep-xp-available_1.html) but there's still a pretty hefty list of things they not only get right, but get right better than Linux and/or Macs.

Hmm... I suppose an /endrant is appropriate here.


A hefty list of things they get right better than Linux or Mac?
Other than marketing, and as a consequence, software market share, can you actually name three of significance?

[Spectarofdeath]

Never had any problems with XP at all, (I've had auto update turned off for a long time, why would you let your pc download stuff without knowing what it is?!?!?) had problems with 95 and 2k. Don't plan on going to vista any time soon hopefully. Don't want to start any kind of flame war or anything but like AgentZero I've noticed alot that anytime someone has a PC problem the first cause is M$ and the 2nd is user error. In a way it reminds me alot like nation bashing. What, there's something wrong somewhere in the world? Blame America, their the ones at the top after all, must be all their fault. Having said that, never used linux or any other OS, but from what some people on this board say it's better then the 2nd coming. Not saying it's not a good OS, but to act like it's "perfect" and M$ is just capitalist pig greed (which we all know, they ARE greedy, what is the point of capitalism then?)is unfair. Define "perfect" for yourself and then ask 10 other (and do try to add variety and not just the 10 you know use the system for the exact same things you do) people to define the "perfect" OS and I bet it won't all match up.

[Fyron]

Jack Simth said:
Do note:
You can install several music players and sets of CD/DVD creation software just fine on a Linux box. For that matter, a Knoppix CD comes with several sets of both pre-installed and linked in the start menu. A few different internet browsers, too.


You seem to have missed the point. It wasn't that multiple music players or disc burners will break the system (they won't, unless they come from the likes of Real Media), it was that the users had no idea what they were doing, and installed everything under the sun. This always includes all sorts of malware apps that are the real culprits for system instability. It should be noted that the software that comes on a Knoppix CD (itself a pretty piss-poor OS compared to real Debian or K/Ubuntu) has been well-tested and vetted before inclusion. The distro makers don't just grab random pieces of software off the net and put them in, as the users that AgentZero is complaining about do. If you only install well-made software on a Windows box, you'll have no more trouble than only installing well-made software on a *nix box. If you download and install every random piece of software on a *nix box, you will break it just the same as a Windows box.

[Jack Simth]

Fyron said:
You seem to have missed the point. It wasn't that multiple music players or disc burners will break the system (they won't, unless they come from the likes of Real Media), it was that the users had no idea what they were doing, and installed everything under the sun. This always includes all sorts of malware apps that are the real culprits for system instability.


And yet, the music players, antivirus, firewall, and cd/dvd burning programs that are the ones he specifically listed - stuff that generally comes, not from random downloads off the net, but from boxes sold in stores. So I gave a counterexample where the offical stuff doesn't do that.

Fyron said:
It should be noted that the software that comes on a Knoppix CD (itself a pretty piss-poor OS compared to real Debian or K/Ubuntu)


Sorta. Knoppix is designed primarily for system recovery type applications, or demo disks where you're not sure what system you'll be using for the demo. As such, it's designed to run off the CD. If you actually tell it to install, it gives you a couple of options, and lists Debian as recommended. Which it will then walk you through doing.

I recently installed it on my uncle's computer. I started with attempting to install Ubuntu, but that one ran into an error (related to a missing hardware cable for the clock, I suspect, but I didn't fight with it enough to actually prove that - he basically just uses the box to browse the net) while Knoppix didn't have any issues.

Fyron said:
has been well-tested and vetted before inclusion. The distro makers don't just grab random pieces of software off the net and put them in, as the users that AgentZero is complaining about do.

And yet of the items he listed, most of them come in boxes from stores, professionally sold.

Fyron said:
If you only install well-made software on a Windows box, you'll have no more trouble than only installing well-made software on a *nix box. If you download and install every random piece of software on a *nix box, you will break it just the same as a Windows box.


Actually, to break a *nix box, you pretty much have to use the root password at some point (or interrupt the boot sequence in a particular spot to arrange for root permissions without the root password, but most people don't know how to do that). Windows defaults to the only account being an administrative account, which causes issues as basically everything ends up running with administrative-level permissions, so any old program on the box can do mean things to the box.

[AgentZero]

A hefty list of things they get right better than Linux or Mac?
Other than marketing, and as a consequence, software market share, can you actually name three of significance?




Things they've done better than Linux:
1. Ease of use. Linux is not easy to use for people not already well familiar with how computers in general work, and slapping a GUI on top of it doesn't change this. When I wanted to do something as simple as install the video drivers for my new graphics card, I wound up having to recompile the kernel. A PITA, but no big deal for me. Linux still has far too many operations that require mucking around with the command line that are simple point & click operations in Windows. And trust me, when you're trying to convince an elder sibling to switch over to *nix, and she winds up finding instructions to get her printer working that include a sneaky "rm -rf /" while running as root, well you might as well tattoo Windows4Life across her forehead at this point.

2. Consistent Support. With 99% of the problems I've had with Windows that were Windows problems, and not some other software/hardware not behaving itself, I've found the answer to in Microsoft's Knowledge Bank. The remaining 1% I have found no answer to, anywhere, ever. Try Googling any number of common *nix problems, and you'll find a huge variety of answers, most of which (from personal experience), don't actually work for one reason or another. There's no consistency of language either, even within a single distro, which can make finding the solution to your exact problem nightmarish. Windows problems, on the other hand, generally take me no more than a 30-60 seconds to find the relevant webpage, because Microsoft uses a consistent language to describe problems, which makes it far easier to find solutions.

3. The "Just Works" Factor. I plug my MP3 player into my XP box, it pops up and tells me it's found new hardware and installed drivers for it. Ditto my digital camera. And my external hard drive. I do the same in Ubuntu... Nothing happens. It's not until I start fiddling around in the CLI that I actually get some useful error messages, and eventually get things up and running. And in the dozen or so Linux distros I've tried, I've run into similar problems, and programs that fail to load without giving an error, and programs that crash with no error, and it's not until I haul open the terminal and start fiddling that I actually find out what's wrong. So I could even say that even when things don't work, they don't work, better, in Windows.

As for Macs:
1. Right click, lol. Well, in seriousness, with all of Apple's vaunted "intuitive interfaces", I've found people with little to no experience with computers tend to figure out how to do things in Windows quicker. I've worked in a few places where people had the option of using either Macs or PCs, and inevitably, those least familiar with computers wind up on the Windows boxes. Note that I'm not referring to people who have only used Windows, I'm talking about those who have never owned a computer, and have only limited prior experience working with them. I don't really understand it myself, I'm actually quite fond of the OS X UI, but I've been told plenty of times that it's, "Nice, but only makes sense after someone explains it."

2. Developer Support. I've run into employees of EA, Ironclad, Relic & Rockstar (They all have offices quite near where I live), at a variety of social gatherings. Inevitably, I wind up asking them about the dearth of games on Macs & Linux. Everyone I've talked to has given my some variation of "Apple won't play nice" when it comes to Macs, and nothing but a thousand-yard stare when I prod them about Linux. I'm not entirely sure what this means, but from talking to these people it seems as though there's more than just market share behind the reason so few developers put out Mac versions of their software.

3. Letting you do whatever you want. Yes, a lot of people fubar their systems because of this, but that's more down to personal ignorance than any particular flaw with the OS. Have you ever tried to make a Mac do something that Apple didn't think you'd need to do? Holy crap. It will just fight you every step of the way, bringing to bear it's full arsenal of lockups, power downs and refusal to boots in an attempt to stop you from doing something as simple as enable support for writing to NTFS partitions, as I discovered on Friday.

Now of course, there are plenty of things that Macs and Linux do much better than Windows, otherwise I wouldn't be running Linux on my laptop, or have a dual-boot set up on the desktop. But the fact remains that there are a lot of things that Microsoft does very well, and it irks me a bit when I see people condemning MS for things that aren't it's fault, when there are plenty of perfectly good reasons (http://technocrat.net/d/2008/1/10/33518) to condemn them for that are their fault.

[Fyron]

Jack Simth said:
not from random downloads off the net, but from boxes sold in stores



AZ didn't specify what the software was, so this seems to be a dubious supporting argument. I doubt that a system with a ton of different media players and disc burners had many of them come from a store, simply because that tends to get really expensive to purchase, and there are so many freely available on the net (even if some are limited feature versions). Even dumb people have only so much money to waste. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Actually, to break a *nix box, you pretty much have to use the root password at some point..


So what? Any home user is going to have the root password for their box, and put it in when it asks for it. An illiterate user won't magically be protected by user permissions, cause he will figure out how to grant them when the box wants them to. That sort of security is merely an illusion of market share; if Linux were to magically gain a large market share, there would be tons of malware and other poorly authored software for it, getting installed on people's machines.


Windows defaults to the only account being an administrative account, which causes issues as basically everything ends up running with administrative-level permissions, so any old program on the box can do mean things to the box.


Which is why MS put UAC into Vista... You have to explicitly press the OK button when software does something requiring admin privileges, even as an administrative user. Obviously it isn't perfect, and dumb users will click OK anyways. Such access protections help with drive-by installers and such, but they do nothing to stop users wanting to install the latest Bonzai Buddy. This is not something you can fix in any technical fashion, regardless of OS. It requires user education.

[Azselendor]

For all the love Apple gets from it's fanbase, it's truely undeserving of it. Some of apple's policies are down right draconian. If Microsoft pulled the crap they did, Microsoft would be getting bent over a table by Anti-Trust suits.

For example.

I can only use iTunes to load music onto my ipod. Other 3rd party MP3 players allow for USB connections and 3rd party softwares.

Apple includes additional software in it's updates. The infamous Safari-bundled with quicktime and itunes updates.

Apple Patent Mongering.

Itune's online store carries different music prices in different regions. In fact, the EU is on their *** about it.

Songs purchased on itunes may not work on anything but an ipod. A known anti-competitive practice once used with juteboxes and IBM used with system mainframes and microsoft used with servers.

Apple Lisa pricing. If you bought one, you know what I'm talking about.

iPhone is restricted to 3rd party developers, locking out independent programmers and businesses.

Many key software packages that run on apple products can only be obtained from apple or apple-owned subsidiaries.

I can go on.

[Suicide Junkie]

Fyron said:

Jack Simth said:
... any old program on the box can do mean things to the box.


This is not something you can fix in any technical fashion, regardless of OS. It requires user education.

A technical solution could work, if you allow for invasive surgery.

[Fyron]

That's the wrong kind of technicality, and you know it!

[capnq]

Xrati said: This just might be Micro$oft's way of sabotaging XP so it will make Vista look better!

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor)
Spectarofdeath said: Don't want to start any kind of flame war or anything but like AgentZero I've noticed alot that anytime someone has a PC problem the first cause is M$ and the 2nd is user error.

Microsoft's security chief once stated (http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/security/soa/Microsoft-criticises-third-party-code-for-Windows-crashes/0,130061744,120277185,00.htm) at a developer's conference that "half of all crashes in Windows are caused not by Microsoft code, but third-party code". This was interpreted on Slashdot (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/08/13/1516209) as Microsoft admitting that half of Windows' crashes were their fault. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Xrati]

capnq, we all know about "Murphy's Laws!" My favorite is,

Nothing can be made foolproof, because fools are very ingenious!


Now for reality, business makes money by selling product. If everyone sits there with XP on their computer, Micro$oft won't make any money. If they come out with a new OS (say like Vi$ta) and nobody likes it, why not 'taint' your old product to make everyone think that your new one is better?

If you're a third party software producer and your software doesn't work on the SP3, then you should be the one to fix it! UNLESS the SP3 problem was something that was created by Micro$oft, then they should fix it.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[Fyron]

*shakes head*

The vast majority of Windows licenses come bundled with new PCs. They could care less about trying to convince people to upgrade current machines from XP to Vista. Even new machines sold with XP are still making MS as much money.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

How would you uninstall SP3?

[Captain Kwok]

You should be able to remove it via the Add/Remove programs option in the Control Panel.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Thanks.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Nope, still glitches on the virusscan.

[capnq]

Would creating a restore point before installing SP3 work, in case you needed to undo it? I haven't been running XP long enough to try to use restore points.

[Captain Kwok]

I've never had an issue in the past when I've used a restore point. But in the case of removing service packs, you don't need to use this feature because they are treated as installed programs and like I mentioned, can be removed through the add/remove programs control panel item.

[Azselendor]

Actually, a restore point is always good to have as if the uninstall becomes borked, you still have a fall-back

[AgentZero]

Fyron said:
*shakes head*

The vast majority of Windows licenses come bundled with new PCs. They could care less about trying to convince people to upgrade current machines from XP to Vista. Even new machines sold with XP are still making MS as much money.



And since as of June, every Dell sold with an XP license will count as a Vista sale for Microsoft, they've even got the "Your old OS is selling better than your new OS" PR angle covered. Ingenious. Although I wouldn't be my usual pedantic self if I didn't point out the ambiguity of your second statement. If they could care less, then they do care, but how much? Do they care a great deal? Or do they care very little, but still have a little leeway in case they need to care less at some point in the future? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Fyron]

They do have some leeway, since at some point they'll care more about higher rates of Vista adoption than just the income. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[David E. Gervais]

lol, a bad workman always blames his tools. It's a crooked saw, the head on the hammer causes the nails to bend, the joints don't line up when I use the jointer... etc etc...

Same thing with Microsoft Windows, it's always Microsoft's fault.

I have not had problems with Windows ever since installing Win XP Home. My brother 'Always has problems'.. Windows is a piece of crap, nothing works, blah blah blah.. geeze David why is it your computer always runs smoothly?.. want proof that the END USER IS THE PROBLEM? My bro has 2 all new brand spanking whoop-*** speed demon computers one Desktop (XP Home) and one laptop with Vista. His computer takes a good 7-8 min to boot up, the laptop like 1 min. (my comp is booted in 20 seconds)

My Bro is a software gadget nut, anything that can 'Enhance the performance of his PC' through software is installed. I try to tell him the difference between the left and right side of the taskbar (left-side being one click shortcuts and right-side being 'memory resident ready to serve instantly' programs using system resources. We both have about the same things on the left, IE, Firefox, Trillian, Quicktime, Messenger, Win Media player, and a few others.

now, on the Right side,.. hoooweeee.. I got the volume control and the nVidia display thing. My Bro has that +AV, Spam filter, Spyware scanner, 3 Emali scanners to always instantly notify him if he gets mail, Printer support (no printer connected to his comp.. we now use a network shared printer) External USB software for his cam, HD, scanner, SD card reader, a firewall, destktop icon adjust, a super duper wallpaper viewer. a weather station, an internet clock, and about a dozen other 'totally useless' crap all running at the same time. (omg believe me when I say he has no less than 28 items 'actively running' on the right side of his taskbar. all booting up and fighting for resources at the same time.)

I open windows explorer it pops open instantly. on my bro's comp it can take a good 10 seconds and his HD goes wild trying to see if any of those 'active' programs need to take action. Get this,.. he was so pissed at his comp a few years ago he bought his current one and put the old one in his closet.. when my comp died (the HD crashed beyond repair) I offered him $250 for his old 2 ghz comp in the closet. That is still the comp I am using today. He always is impressed at how fast my comp is, and he has a new dual core whoop-*** comp. that still has the same problems. I remind him that 'my speed demon comp' was once his old piece of crap junk pile sitting in his closet. About a month ago I bought a new case (nice black one) and transfered the guts from the old to the new. It's an illusionary upgrade. only a facelift as they say, but I also upgraded the memory from 1gig to 2 gig. For me there is only a slight improvement is speed of operation. but I'm happy and it only cost me like $200 ($100 for the case, $75 for the gig and 25$ for a new GPU fan)

Oh I did have a little adventure,.. my computer 'USED' to auto-login when I booted up, it does not any more,.. but that happened right after installing Lord of the Rings Online.. I suspect that when it 'Required' .NET Framework V1.0 that fubar'd things. I have since Uninstalled LotRo and .NET v1.0 (I have .NET v2.0) but even using Tweak UI to set the auto logon does not work. something deep deep inside the registry is toggled and I have no idea what or where, but I do know it has been this way ever since installing LotRo. do I blame MS? not on your life.. the makers of LotRo are the ones responsible for this. Would they help to fix the problem they caused? not on your life. the windows logon is not part of their software.. so even though they caused the problem, they are not responsible. If I talk to MS I'm sure they would say "it is not reccomended to have both v1.0 AND v2.0 of .NET Framework installed at the same time".. LoL

Anyways, that's my story, I offer it as proof that Microsoft is NOT to blame for 99% of the problems people have with their computers. but 99% of the users blame Microsoft.

Nuf said, Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[MrToxin]

Mr. David, that is a perfect example of a flagrant ID10T error on your brother's side. :V

[Azselendor]

That is so true.

I helped a friend get his computer up and running after it crashed. Dell force-fed him Vista. He couldn't use it. Constantly cussing his computer. I used it with no problems (once I figured out where things moved to) remotely. After a week of him not being able to use it, it downgraded to XP.

He won't stop cussing it.

He doesn't understand why I can use it so easily and with few hassles.


I bought my first XP-run machine when XP first came out with SP1 for it. I haven't reformatted it or anything since. Almost 7 years and it turns on a dime. Meanwhile the computers used by my office mates and family have to be cleaned out and reformatted every few months.

In fact, my office mates started demanding macs be installed, but the owner didn't want to splurge the money on what he felt were over-priced linux computers. So he had me install window blinds on all the computers with the mac theme. That alone cut complaints about windows.

I do think Microsoft made some bad design choices with Vista, but that happens. You can't please everyone. For most users, Vista was too jarring of an experience from the usual XP. Windows 95-XP were all the same basic design, just updated without moving stuff around too much. XP to Vista was like going from Windows 3.11 to XP overnight.

[Fyron]

David E. Gervais said:
If I talk to MS I'm sure they would say "it is not reccomended to have both v1.0 AND v2.0 of .NET Framework installed at the same time".. LoL


Actually, there isn't any problem doing that, and its necessary to be able to run 1.x .NET apps. IIRC, installing .NET 2.0 gets .NET 1.1 installed during the prerequisites phase anyways.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

You say 'It's a poor workman who blames his tools'.

I say 'Anyone who says that has never tried to pound in a nail with a rock'.

[capnq]

Captain Kwok said: I've never had an issue in the past when I've used a restore point. But in the case of removing service packs, you don't need to use this feature because they are treated as installed programs and like I mentioned, can be removed through the add/remove programs control panel item.

Is that a new feature for WinXP SP3? Because my install of SP2 doesn't show up anywhere on Add/Remove Programs. (In fact, the System Properties tab is the only proof I can find that I'm running SP2.)

[phalzyr]

David: Microsoft has a program called TweakUI that is very handy. It can make your machine auto login again. It provides easy access to some hidden registry values that are very useful to tweak (And does so in a safe way) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I agree with you totally. Any user that installs a lot of crap can majorly slow down/unstabalize their machine. AS a tech I see this way too often. "My computer is so slow now..."

Unfortunately too many useful program do this, and some are even preloaded for you when you get a new PC. I tend to format and do a manual install whenever I get a new PC to get rid of Dell's/Gateway's/etc's advertise crap they install for you that can cause slower unstable machines.

If you are unfamilair with registry areas where program auto run from their are also useful tools to look at those area and check/uncheck them (Rather than just removing the registry line and being screwed if it was soemthing you needed).

[Suicide Junkie]

phalzyr said:
David: Microsoft has a program called TweakUI that is very handy. It can make your machine auto login again...



Uhm.


DG said:
...but even using Tweak UI to set the auto logon does not work.

[David E. Gervais]

a little FYI,..

I found the fix for the auto-login problem, it appears that XP has a way to do this. in the 'RUN..' command type "control userpasswords2" (without the quotes) a dialog comes up for "User Accounts" (not the same one as 'User Accounts' in the control panel) simply select the user from list, and 'uncheck the box' for "Users must enter a user name and password to use this computer"

it then logs in bypassing the login password screen.

NOTE: This is not recommended for people who have multiple users who want to keep their info private or need different user settings and prefs. It works for me, I'm the only user of my comp, and I have no personnel info on my comp that can be stolen, or if stolen would have world shattering results.

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Captain Kwok]

This is also a wee bit off topic, but involves calling up Task Manager. I know you can access task manager via CTRL+ALT+DEL, but I recall reading about another key sequence that brings up task manager while skipping any of the extra dialog stuff (such as login info, or shutdown etc). Does anybody know what key combo does that?

[Fyron]

ctrl-shift-esc

[Azselendor]

one of my lesser computer literate friends installed service pack 3 today. About halfway through it he called me and asked "I'm installing SP3, is it safe?"

Reply: "Only if your computer doesn't end up as a boat anchor."

You could hear the horror in his silence.

Fortunately it installed just fine.

[Baron Grazic]

I justed wanted to post that I've been running SP3 now for a week, without any problems what so ever.
Only warning is that SP3 re-enables the Windows Firewall even if you had it disabled, which can be a "got you" if running other Firewall software.
Baron Grazic

[capnq]

This security expert's blog (http://msinfluentials.com/blogs/jesper/archive/2008/05/08/does-your-amd-based-computer-boot-after-installing-xp-sp3.aspx) explains what the problem is that XP SP3 causes and how to fix it.

[Xrati]

Why don't they beta this stuff before they do a wholesale release like this?

[Q]

capnq said:
This security expert's blog (http://msinfluentials.com/blogs/jesper/archive/2008/05/08/does-your-amd-based-computer-boot-after-installing-xp-sp3.aspx) explains what the problem is that XP SP3 causes and how to fix it.



I used the tool available in this link and installed the service pack 3 without problems. And I do have a HP computer with AMD processor.

[AgentZero]

I installed it yesterday, and haven't had any problems. Aside from it pestering me to reboot every five minutes after it finished while I was trying to watch a movie. I would be indescribably happy if MS would take a page from Firefox's book, so when it tells me I need to reboot, and I say Later, it f***s off and leaves me alone and doesn't keep pestering me every five minutes like an attention-deprived four year old.

[Fyron]

Xrati said:
Why don't they beta this stuff before they do a wholesale release like this?


They do, and they explicitly delayed the release to public to give OEMs time to put out updates to fix the bugs they created (eg: HP running both the Intel and AMD power management drivers on AMD systems). MS obviously can't wait forever for OEMs dragging their heels, though.

[Azselendor]

that's a big point right there, between apple and Microsoft. You have 3rd party everything gadgets for MS meaning more chances of incompatible components and updates. With apple, you have pretty much apple-made-only components.

Many problems can be traced to a 3rd party component cutting corners or just being buggy.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

I like the options.

[Xrati]

I installed SP3 the other day and ....... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif I installed SP3 the other day and ....... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif I installed SP3 the other day and ....... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif I installed SP3 the other day and ....... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif I installed SP3 the other day and ....... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif I installed SP3 the other day and ....... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif I installed SP3 the other day and ....... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif I installed SP3 the other day and ....... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif I installed SP3 the other day and ....... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif I installed SP3 the other day and ....... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif I installed SP3 the other day and ....... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif I installed SP3 the other day and ....... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif I installed SP3 the other day and ....... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif I installed SP3 the other day and ....... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif I installed SP3 the other day and ....... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif @%#$!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Fyron]

Man that was funny! You should get a comedy gig!

[Xrati]

I do! Keeping you guys entertained here!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Black_Knyght]

Xrati - You did it again....ROFLMAO !!!

[David E. Gervais]

a friend of mine installed SP3 and something horrible happened,.. she now gets a bios atpi error and system crashes on boot. crashes on boot, crashes on boot.. unable to use F8 on bootup to get into bios to reset to defaults.. something horrible happened. I'm guessing rare, but have any of you heard of the bios getting fubar'd after installing SP3? why would it even access the Bios?

anyways any insight would be aprieciated, I have no sys specs, but I suspct she'll have to take it to a techno geek to do a hard reset of the bios. (usually involves shorting out jumpers on the bios.)

the fact that it was working fine before the 'update' means it is no doubt something SP3 did.. is MS responsible.. no,.. is the MoBo manufacturer responsible.. no.. ultimately the user is responsible because we all 'agree' when installing software that these companies are not to be held responsible for any damage caused by their software..

welcome to the wonderfull world of 'irresponsible' corporate software developers who are not 'liable' for the damage caused by anything they do. they could make an install program that formates your HD blindly and there is nothing you could do,.. after all we all 'Accept their end user agreement which states they are not responsible' every time we install a piece of software.. the good news.. in very rare cases you can get your $30 purchase money back,.. in the case of 'updates'.. you are out of luck.

but I digress, my comp works fine, I have sp2 installed.. just did a home housecall virus scan and it found no suspicious or malware' files on my comp.. last time I did a scan was in September of 2007. then I had 2 suspicious files, but they were not viruses. I deleted them.

Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Oh people, please Turn OFF auto updates. 99.9% of the updates are not gonna affect your comp if not installed.

[douglas]

Looking at the "security expert's blog" capnq posted, that sounds suspiciously similar to the second problem addressed in the blog post. The suggested fix is very simple:

The solution is simplicity itself: insert a USB flash drive, or some other form of secondary storage mechanism, before booting the computer. The people have that have seen this problem report that it goes away when they do. The catch is that the computer will only boot with a secondary drive attached. If you remove the secondary drive it will no longer boot.

It also appears that this could be related to using a USB mouse. If you have a USB mouse, try moving it to the PS/2 port instead (the little round port, you should have received an adapter with your mouse). That seems to resolve the problem without the use of an external USB flash drive.

[Xrati]

David, for a complete bios reset, just go to the motherboard and take the battery out for ~1 to 2 hrs., OR leave it out overnight. When you reboot, all the bios setting will be at default and you should be able to access it through your 'F8' key or 'delete' key on bootup.

[Atrocities]

A lot of feed back from people running business say that they had absolutely no problem updating to SP3 over hundreds and thousands of machines. So I guess its safe now. Any one willing to risk it now, odds are in your favor.

[Azselendor]

I have 2 hp computers that haven't been upgraded past SP2 - except for security patches - but neither one will boot with a USB device attached.

In these cases, the bios is set to boot from a USB device even if I tell it not to.

the blog that was posted cited HP's being more likely to have the Boot-Crash-Loop.

makes me wonder...

[TurinTurambar]

OT: but not really:

Installing the latest update for IE7 kills the ability to use the Google Toolbar. It has happened on my office computer and now here at home.

[Azselendor]

Well, so far i've managed to upgrade all but 3 of my computers.

One is an HP machine with an AMD processor and the other two contain sensitive work and personal files I don't want to risk yet. That reminds me, I need to get another backup harddrive.


Swoosh! Off to tiger direct!

[se5a]

Xrati said:
David, for a complete bios reset, just go to the motherboard and take the battery out for ~1 to 2 hrs., OR leave it out overnight. When you reboot, all the bios setting will be at default and you should be able to access it through your 'F8' key or 'delete' key on bootup.



There should be a jumper which will do the same thing in a matter of seconds, look in the mobo book, or if you've not got that, find it online.
it may even be writen on the mobo, something along the lines of clrcmos or ccmos.

[Xrati]

Well, for those who don't have the Mobo Book around, http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif taking the battery out is easier than trying to figure which jumper to pull!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Pull them! Pull them ALL!!! MWUHAHAHAHHACK!

Although you might experience some slight trouble with reconnecting them.

[Atrocities]

I am going for it. I am updating my new Power Machine to XPsp3 right now. I won't update my HP as it is an AMD and we all know that INTEL and Microsoft have a private deal between them to kill AMD.

If this works I might even risk my laptop.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

...Good luck. Based on past postings, you'll need it.

[Atrocities]

Well after hours and hours of trying to fix my system after XPsp3 screwed up it, I finally have it all working again. I had to reinstall EVERYTHING after doing a complete reinstall of XP. I am now up to date and only suffered a few hours of pain. NO way in hell am I going to try this with the HP POS. NO way.

[PvK]

Atrocities said:
A lot of feed back from people running business say that they had absolutely no problem updating to SP3 over hundreds and thousands of machines. So I guess its safe now. Any one willing to risk it now, odds are in your favor.



LOL.

[Atrocities]

An astute observation there PvK. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Xrati]

It is, Illogical!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif