Stupid AI, drop the damned troops!!

[dogscoff]

OK, here's where I think you might be going wrong:

"making use of the fact that the AI almost always shoot at the ship with the most shields first."

In my experience the AI prefers to go for the ships with the most weapons, but no matter...

"The fleet had primary orders to capture the planet and secondary orders to fire at optimum range, "

As far as I know this is the right way to go about it.


"and they are ordered NOT to shoot at the planet"

This is your problem. Ships will not move in to drop troops in simultaneous while there are weapons platforms present. Sorry, it's hard-coded that way. You'll have to destroy the weapons platforms out from orbit.


"- I want to take it intact."

Naturally. Try setting the strategies to "fire until all weapons destroyed." This seems to work quite well, you should experience very little collateral damage. As soon as the WPs are gone, your gunships should stop firing and your troopship will move in.


"my ships probably can't win the firefight against the WPs anyway. "

Oh dear. If you can't get some more/ better ships in there, you could be stuffed. The only other possibility is to attack the weapons platforms using the "cargo maintenence problems" intel project. Unless you're playing a non-intel V1.41 game that is. Oh dear...

"kept running to the corner ... head for the planet ... get itself killed ... so I added a meason bLaster and tried again"

Interesting. Can't help with this problem I'm afraid. I'm quite surprised actually, I wouldn't have expected it to behave that way once you had the weapon fitted. Perhaps someone else could help... Atraikus? Rollo? You guys have worked in this area.

------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so Brain but, if you replace the P with an O, my name would be Oinky, wouldn't it?"

[Rollo]

I think dogscoff is right. You have to destroy the weapon platforms first. The troops will stay behind until this is done. Once the WPs are finished the warships stop firing and scatter (actually run for the corners!, pretty silly isn't it?) and the troops move in for the capture. Works really well for me.

About the Kamikaze attack after the warships are dead: I don't know. I have never seen this, but here is what I suspect: The troop ship in a mixed fleet will wait until the defenses are finished (that I know for sure), BUT if there are no warships it tries to capture the planet anyway (that is what I assume). If this true, you might turn it to your advantage. Try to capture a planet with troop ships only. Use two or three of them and shield them. Hopefully one gets through to capture the planet even with WPs intact. Might be worth a try (if you try this and it works, let me know). It might also be a good idea to put some point-defense on the troop ships to kill the sats, because they will fire on the planet after the capture. In one of my tests with an AI that captures planets, a planet was glassed only moments after the capture by the sats that were still in orbit.
I hope I could be of some help.

Rollo

[capnq]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"making use of the fact that the AI almost always shoot at the ship with the most shields first."

In my experience the AI prefers to go for the ships with the most weapons, but no matter...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My impression has been that the AI goes after the most expensive ship first. I think that may be how it defines either "biggest" or "strongest" in the attack priorities.

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

[CW]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rollo:
I think dogscoff is right. You have to destroy the weapon platforms first. The troops will stay behind until this is done. Once the WPs are finished the warships stop firing and scatter (actually run for the corners!, pretty silly isn't it?) and the troops move in for the capture. Works really well for me.

About the Kamikaze attack after the warships are dead: I don't know. I have never seen this, but here is what I suspect: The troop ship in a mixed fleet will wait until the defenses are finished (that I know for sure), BUT if there are no warships it tries to capture the planet anyway (that is what I assume). If this true, you might turn it to your advantage. Try to capture a planet with troop ships only. Use two or three of them and shield them. Hopefully one gets through to capture the planet even with WPs intact. Might be worth a try (if you try this and it works, let me know). It might also be a good idea to put some point-defense on the troop ships to kill the sats, because they will fire on the planet after the capture. In one of my tests with an AI that captures planets, a planet was glassed only moments after the capture by the sats that were still in orbit.
I hope I could be of some help.

Rollo <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Emm... the reason why I'm not using a full fleet in the first place is because I'm so poor and time constrained that I DON'T have a full fleet to start with, let alone 3 or 4 filled troop ships! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

It looks like I'm force to give the AI some planetary napalms to play with, even though I really don't feel like it. I've tailored a ship with just enough bombs to take out the WPs, but that means I need to refit the ship for every planet I attack...

I could have been smarter and thought of using fighters, too bad but I don't want to wait, so I will use my ships this time and build the fighters for next time.

[Rollo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CW:
Emm... the reason why I'm not using a full fleet in the first place is because I'm so poor and time constrained that I DON'T have a full fleet to start with, let alone 3 or 4 filled troop ships! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, then a have a solution to your problem using just two ships. All you need to do is some tiny little refit. I did some testing this afternoon and found out a lot of interesting stuff. First of all my assumption about the Kamikaze run was correct. If there are no warships (better make that "ships with no troops") left then all troop transports charge for the planet. All you need to do is refit your high shield dreadnought. Put in one cargo component and fill it with troops. Make a fleet with only the dreadnought and a troop transport. Since both ships have troops now, they will both charge for the planet right away. The dreadnought will soak up the fire and the transport will capture the planet. It works, I've tried it. Just make sure both ships have the same speed so one doesn't arrive ahead of the other one when charging the planet. Now it all depends on the staying ability of your dreadnought and the fighting of your troops http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif.
One nice thing: After you capture a planet with weapon platforms intact. They will start firing right away for your side (no reload time added after capture).
Hope this will help http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

Rollo

[Suicide Junkie]

Big Q here:
Are the platforms on the planet armed with either PDCs or sat-targetting beam weapons?
Or, alternatively:
Can the planet + WPs destroy the SATs on their own?

If your fighting warship gets a cargo bay too, you can avoid ruining your transport's strat, and hopefully save the planet from some damage...
You did say that you'd tried it in a tactical sim, but not using the same planet IIRC.

[CW]

This is a hair-pulling problem that I want solved, and I want it solved fast, before I get so mad that I literally throw the computer out the window.

I'm preparing my first planetary assualt for my first PBW game, and I'm having huge difficulties trying to get the damned troop ship to drop the damned troops. Due to my really restricting resources (and the fact that the damned AI is too stupid to do anything other than a head-first charge), I "cheated" a bit by making use of the fact that the AI almost always shoot at the ship with the most shields first. I planned to assualt this homeworld with 3 ships - the troop transport, a gunnery dreadnouhgt and a decoy shield ship (a dreadnought with nothing but a small gun and 7000+ shield points). The fleet had primary orders to capture the planet and secondary orders to fire at optimum range, and they are ordered NOT to shoot at the planet - I want to take it intact. The gunnery DN is there to take out the 8 satellites in orbit around the planet, which carry a big wave motion gun each.

In real life, the best way to take out a prepared defender is to drop troops right on top of him rather than winning the firefight first, and this is exactly what I plan to do since my ships probably can't win the firefight against the WPs anyway. I want the three ships to move in as a group, while the gunnery DN shoots down the sats and the decoy ship takes hits, I want the troop ship to land the troops and silences the WPs. The plan worked perfectly when I personally took control and tried it in one of my solo games against an even more heavily defended planet, but when I handed it over to the idiotic AI it screwed up big. Actually it worked perfectly against a lightly defended planet, but when I tried it on a heavily defended homeworld, the &@$!*$* troop ship kept running to the corner while the other two ships got chopped into tiny little bits by the WPs. THEN the bastard would turn around, head for the planet kamakazi style and get itself killed. Originally I thought it was because the troop ship didn't have any weapons other than a PDC, so I added a meason bLaster and tried again - same result. I've checked that the troop ship was not ordered to break formation in "strategies", and none of the ships had anything to do with "don't get hurt". I need a solution NOW! This attack is strategically VERY important because of the extra resources on this planet, and I have to launch the attack flawlessly within the next day or two, since this is a PBW game.

I thank you for your suggestions in advance!


[This message has been edited by CW (edited 15 August 2001).]

[CW]

Rollo, tried your method, but it worked only part of the time. The problem comes from another of the AI's strange behaviour. I converted the gunnery DN with more shields and a cargo bay, and put a single troop on it. The two ships (that converted DN and the troop ship) would move in together, but if the DN drops its troops first the problem starts. Obviously the single troop would lose the ground battle, but then instead of dropping its uncommited troops the troop ship would turn around and head for the corner!

I've to admit the AI in this game is one of the worst I have seen.

[dogscoff]

What happens if you use Rollo's method but with *no* troops on the DN?

Would it make a difference changing the fleet leader and/ or formation? (ie make sure the troop ship gets there first.)

Failing that get some more troops on the DN and hope they can take the planet.

Or... reduce the shields of the dreadnought so that it's just tough enough to soak up all the enemy fire, but gets damaged / slowed down / destroyed before reaching the planet and dropping it's troop. (Getting desprate now)

------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so Brain but, if you replace the P with an O, my name would be Oinky, wouldn't it?"

[Rollo]

Yes, I know. From the situation you described I assumed the dreadnought would not live long enough to drop its troops. My bad. Besides that you should set the troop transport as fleet leader. This way it will move first and will probably drop the troops before the dreadnought. Also you should put a small weapon on the transport to get it to stay and finish the sats after the capture(only PD will cause it to run away). After the planet is captured and the DN still lives and has its troops still loaded, do not expect it to battle the sats. It will run away, because it is a "troop transport" http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The problem comes from another of the AI's strange behaviour.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually this behaviour is consistant with what I have mentioned in my earlier post. After the dreadnought drops its troops it is not a troop transport anymore, but a warship again. This will cause the "real" troop transport to go into hiding and wait for the weapon platforms to be destroyed...

Rollo

[Rollo]

Whoops, I was offline typing.

[Rollo]

"What happens if you use Rollo's method but with *no* troops on the DN?"

If you put no troops on the DN, that will make the troop transport (TT) wait. The DN is just a warship with a cargo space.

"Would it make a difference changing the fleet leader and/ or formation? (ie make sure the troop ship gets there first.)"

Yes, that is a good idea.

"Failing that get some more troops on the DN and hope they can take the planet."

IIRC the problem is that CW doesn't have enough troops to fill two ships.

"Or... reduce the shields of the dreadnought so that it's just tough enough to soak up all the enemy fire, but gets damaged / slowed down / destroyed before reaching the planet and dropping it's troop. (Getting desprate now)."

Should work. As I said before, I was thinking the DN would get destroyed in the approach anyway.

CW, if you don't find the DN/TT combo satisfactory, the best thing (if possible) would probably be that you build/refit two DN/TT hybrids. Both should have:
A) enough troops to capture the planet
B) enough shields so that at least one will reach the planet
C) one small weapon and some PD to finsh the sats

Rollo

[edit]typos

[This message has been edited by Rollo (edited 16 August 2001).]

[Kadste]

Rollo,

In one of you Posts you mentioned
"In one of my tests with an AI that captures planets, a planet was glassed only moments after the capture by the sats that were still in orbit."

Is this AI posted. It would make a tremendous difference to my (and I think to most of our) games if some AI's had this capability.

I searched the Scenario/Mod Archives and did not see any Posts by you. If it is not post it, can you? If it is posted, can you point me to it.

Thanks,




------------------
Never Give up, Never Surrender!

[dmm]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CW:
I've [got] to admit the AI in this game is one of the worst I have seen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1) I've seen a LOT worse, and for less complicated games. Most of the challenging AIs cheat, which I hate. Certainly, SEIV's AI is aggravatingly stupid at times, but I don't see that as the main problem here.

2) The problem, in this particular case, is arising because you're trying to capture a planet by _exploiting_ the weak AI! Ironic, isn't it? Admit it, you'd never capture that planet with that fleet against a human opponent. He'd go after your unshielded troop transport as soon as it came into range and would blow it to pieces with one salvo. And he would ignore your "shield ship." The AI would be good enough for the job if your fleet were good enough to capture the planet from a human opponent.

3) Your (probably human) opponent has set up his planetary defences (defenses?) in accordance with known AI behavior. Sorry, but you just have to deal with it. That's the game. The hard-coding that insists on destroying weapons platforms before landing troops was probably put in at the request of some poor slob who had his heavily-defended planet stolen from him by someone who tricked the AI into ignoring troop transports. Ditto with the "one drop per combat" rule.

4) You should feel lucky. You've got a 50/50 chance of capturing a planet that you've got no fair expectation of capturing. The planet owner is the guy who should be complaining!

[Rollo]

Kadste, thank you for your interest,
the AI is for the Space Vikings shipset that dogscoff is doing (btw, how are the gfx coming along? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif). Both the AI and the ships are still "under construction". I can send you the AI files if you like. Then you can check it out and give me some feedback for improvements.

Rollo
[edit]typos and additions

[This message has been edited by Rollo (edited 16 August 2001).]

[Rollo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dmm:
4) You should feel lucky. You've got a 50/50 chance of capturing a planet that you've got no fair expectation of capturing. The planet owner is the guy who should be complaining![/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

good points dmm,
just let me answer to one of them: if the planet owner is reading this, he will probably adjust his defenses anyway. just build some sats with ionic dispersers and enjoy the fireworks http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif.

Rollo

[dmm]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CW:
And if I'm directing the fight personally I wouldn't let him get in range of my transport! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm missing something. How could you avoid getting into range of defense platforms and still land troops?

Do you mean that you could dance in and out to wipe out the sats and platforms? I think you'll admit that's not realistic, and only works in tactical because there's no "opportunity fire" mode for defenders. It's a weakness of the turn-based system.

Or do you mean that your weapons out-range the sats and platforms, and that the AI is too stupid to take advantage of that? In which case, I agree with you, that's really frustrating. (But I thought that problem was fixed.)

[edit: Above was posted before CW's edits. Below is after.]

So, it's the dancing thing, huh? Like I said, that wouldn't work if there was opportunity fire. Your solo games went so quickly because you exploited the lack of it, by using tactical combat. Try a simultaneous-move solo game (strategic combat only). It's harder, as you are finding out. Strategic combat is (purposely?) set up not to use dancing, which roughly simulates the effect of opportunity fire. I think, however, that if a ship has only weapons that take multiple turns to reload, then it will move out of range while reloading. Not a true dance, but it might help. What happens if you try that?

[This message has been edited by dmm (edited 16 August 2001).]

[CW]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>1) I've seen a LOT worse, and for less complicated games. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unlucky you. Most of the time I research a game before I buy it, and that effectively filters out the games with bad AIs. But I agree with you, SEIV is a good game even with its improvable AI, makes some interesting engineering challenges!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>2) The problem, in this particular case, is arising because you're trying to capture a planet by _exploiting_ the weak AI! Ironic, isn't it? Admit it, you'd never capture that planet with that fleet against a human opponent. He'd go after your unshielded troop transport as soon as it came into range and would blow it to pieces with one salvo. And he would ignore your "shield ship." The AI would be good enough for the job if your fleet were good enough to capture the planet from a human opponent.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I'm directing the fight personally I won't even let him shoot at my transport in the first place! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif AND that planet is easily takable with that DN and transport. The biggest problem is the AI doesn't know how to do little tricks to defeat an enemy that doesn't move (the WPs namely).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>3) Your (probably human) opponent has set up his planetary defences (defenses?) in accordance with known AI behavior. Sorry, but you just have to deal with it. That's the game. The hard-coding that insists on destroying weapons platforms before landing troops was probably put in at the request of some poor slob who had his heavily-defended planet stolen from him by someone who tricked the AI into ignoring troop transports. Ditto with the "one drop per combat" rule.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can set the AI to engage the transport first in strategies but appearent none of the default AIs were set up for that. Either way, who says it is not a valid strategy? I'm the kind of person who don't like sticking to set-piece battle drills.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>4) You should feel lucky. You've got a 50/50 chance of capturing a planet that you've got no fair expectation of capturing. The planet owner is the guy who should be complaining!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is turn 23 already. In my solo games I normally would have wiped out my first AI empire by now, and with comparable forces. Again, the problem is the AI doesn't know how to defeat static defenses.

By the way, the empire I'm fighting is AI controlled.


[edit] sorry something funny happend to this post and I had to repost it.


[This message has been edited by CW (edited 16 August 2001).]

[CW]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Do you mean that you could dance in and out to wipe out the sats and platforms? I think you'll admit that's not realistic, and only works in tactical because there's no "opportunity fire" mode for defenders. It's a weakness of the turn-based system.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. You can't really call this an exploit, it is just playing to the rules. The turn based system doesn't represent anything realistic, so the only way to make it fair is to have a real time combat system, orbiting sats etc.

[dmm]

LOL. We keep posting past each other.

See my added comments in previous post. And I agree that dancing isn't an exploit, but strategic doesn't work that way. Is that more realistic, or just stupid AI? I think MM would claim the former. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

[CW]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So, it's the dancing thing, huh? Like I said, that wouldn't work if there was opportunity fire. Your solo games went so quickly because you exploited the lack of it, by using tactical combat. Try a simultaneous-move solo game (strategic combat only). It's harder, as you are finding out. Strategic combat is (purposely?) set up not to use dancing, which roughly simulates the effect of opportunity fire. I think, however, that if a ship has only weapons that take multiple turns to reload, then it will move out of range while reloading. Not a true dance, but it might help. What happens if you try that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If combat is done in real time with opportunity fire I'm sure I can come up with something not possible in turn mode. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif


[This message has been edited by CW (edited 16 August 2001).]

[dmm]

Regarding dancing being an exploit:
Some purists on this forum _do_ consider it an exploit, in the sense that 1) it is unrealistic, and 2) the AI doesn't know how to do it. Actually, some consider anything the AI doesn't know how to do properly, like invading planets, to be exploitive. By that definition, winning is exploitive!
But dancing is so well-known and obvious that it clearly isn't an exploit in the sense of cheating other players. And of course, in a solo game, if YOU don't consider it an exploit, then it's NOT!

[Kadste]

Rollo,

I will take you up on your offer to send me the AI files.

Just send them to steve.kadolph@sap.com

I will test them this weekend.

Really looking forward to an AI that will try to capture some of my planets

------------------
Never Give up, Never Surrender!

[Atraikius]

Kadste -

You could also try the Orks, they will ocasionally attempt to capture planets.

[Rollo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atraikius:
Kadste -

You could also try the Orks, they will ocasionally attempt to capture planets. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, of course. Try the orks. Sorry, I forgot to mention them Atraikius. They are already posted. I will still send you the files, so you can test the (beta-)Vikings.

Rollo

[dogscoff]

QUOTE:
the AI is for the Space Vikings shipset that dogscoff is doing (btw, how are the gfx coming along? ).
/QUOTE

Ummm... slowly. No real progress in over a month now. Just been too busy. Sorry.

http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/viking.htm

------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so Brain but, if you replace the P with an O, my name would be Oinky, wouldn't it?"

[CW]

I've finally decided to give the AI some planetary napalms to play with, since this is the only method that guarantee success, even though there is a 50% chance that the AI might blow up something I want to take over intact. My plan is to use 3 ships - a gunnery DN to take care of the sats, a planetary bombardment BC with JUST enough bombs to wipe out the WPs, and of cause the troop ship.

[Master Belisarius]

Kadste: hey, also you can try the Aquilaeian Empire! Playing against the Vikings, Orks and Aquilaeian, maybe one of them could take over one of your planets! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[CW]

YEEHAA! Planet conquered! And conquered intact! The only thing went wrong was the ships made their individual attack runs instead of doing it together because I did not put them in a fleet. That caused me a cruiser but that's a cheap price to pay, especially considering the number of ships I captured from the Phong lately.

[Rollo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Kadste: hey, also you can try the Aquilaeian Empire! Playing against the Vikings, Orks and Aquilaeian, maybe one of them could take over one of your planets! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Master Belisarius, I am trying this right now. Should be fun http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif. Btw, I have posted the Viking AI at the mod archive now. Check them out, if you like.

Rollo

[Master Belisarius]

Sure Rollo, I'll start to use them in my test games.

[Atraikius]

Starting a new game tonight, I plan on including both of them.