The Future of Space Empires IV

[Atrocities]

The amount of people playing SE IV has dropped off dramatically over the last two years to the point that the game is for all intents and purposes, dead. It has been milked for every last cent that it can produce and unless Aaron is willing to revisit the game and fix some of the glaring remaining bugs, so thing that he is not likely going to do, then its a safe bet to say that SE IV is past its prime and now on its last days if not already dead.

So why not get Aaron to release the source code for SE IV and let the modding community have at it? I mean the games earning potential is all but extinct at this point so why not toss the fans a much needed meaty bone and give up the source code so that they can "fix" the remaining issues and perhaps even expand the game some?

The game is after all nearly eight years old and 100% of games that old have either already released the source codes or have gone completely from the memories of players. The programing of SE IV cannot be that "secret" that after eight years its still of prized value and all.

The likelihood of an expansion pack for SE IV coming from SFI is about as likely as finding humanoid life in the core of the moon a week from last Tuesday. (In other words not gonna ever happen.)

SE IV is past its prime and its time to let the fans have it completely.

[Suicide Junkie]

What's all that now?

I've found things are picking up for CBmod.

[Atrocities]

Really? Well that is indeed very welcome news. I have been advertising the game all over the place trying to get people interested in them. But still, it would be nice if Aaron released the source code. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Kana]

Suicide Junkie said:
What's all that now?

I've found things are picking up for CBmod.



Yep quite enjoying PBC IV as well...

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Fyron]

The one overriding constant over the years has been AT's doom and gloom!

[Urendi Maleldil]

I agree. But the best way for Aaron to release the source code is to promote SE6, whenever it might come out. Or at least to sustain the modding community for SE5.

That said, I'm still working hard on the massive Advanced SE4 mod. I just discovered a few ancient quadrant mods, so I'll have to retool the Advanced Quadrants mod when I get the chance.

Right now I'm working on the hugest components.txt file ever.

[Atrocities]

Fyron said:
The one overriding constant over the years has been AT's doom and gloom!



I am sorry, but I don't see this as doom and gloom. And regardless, look at my chosen user name. That should explain everything.

[Captain Kwok]

You could argue that releasing the SE4 source code and the subsequent free user compiled versions would hurt sales of any future Space Empires title. So I could see some reluctance on MM's part if it might threaten his financial security.

It might make more sense for MM to open up parts of the SE6 engine to modding as the AI was opened up in SE5.

[Fyron]

Urendi Maleldil said:
Right now I'm working on the hugest components.txt file ever.


Bigger than the 50 MB file SJ made for GritEcon one time?


Captain Krock said:
It might make more sense for MM to open up parts of the SE6 engine to modding as the AI was opened up in SE5.


I'd love to see it go in the direction of Civ4, but I'm not sure MM is up to it..

[Kana]

Captain Kwok said:
It might make more sense for MM to open up parts of the SE6 engine to modding as the AI was opened up in SE5.



I'd be happy if he actually listened to the beta testers and the players on issues of UI, and gameplay.

[Suicide Junkie]

Fyron said:

Urendi Maleldil said:
Right now I'm working on the hugest components.txt file ever.


Bigger than the 50 MB file SJ made for GritEcon one time?

And that one was the one that snuggled up really close to the hard limit of 32k components, so it would be pretty hard to beat it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[PvK]

Atro, what does it mean to you that a game is "dead"? It seems like a very meaningless yet negative kind of thing to say.

[Ironmanbc]

there are quite a few of us the STILL play SE IV (I for one still bug ya all for any update to mods)

There has been alot of us that are playing SE V now that is alot of fun to play but we still go back and play a few more turns just to remember what we were doing before and apply the same strats to SE5

[thorfrog]

I'm still playing and modding. I like this more then SEV.

[Urendi Maleldil]

Suicide Junkie said:

Fyron said:

Urendi Maleldil said:
Right now I'm working on the hugest components.txt file ever.


Bigger than the 50 MB file SJ made for GritEcon one time?

And that one was the one that snuggled up really close to the hard limit of 32k components, so it would be pretty hard to beat it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif



Well, it includes parts of GritEcon, but does away with tech gridding (too many similar and redundant components). Since tech grids are exponential, it's considerably smaller. So I guess it's not the hugest components.txt file ever.

[Suicide Junkie]

The magic of tech gridding is that you don't see the similar ones unless you take a different path to your techs. They're all useful to somebody tho, so the components are not redundant except in specific instances of a game.

It also changes your tech tree into an orchard http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Black_Knyght]

Atrocities said:
The amount of people playing SE IV has dropped off dramatically over the last two years to the point that the game is for all intents and purposes, dead.



Slanderous libel and utter gibberish, and I'll gut the scoundrels who claim it as such like the scurvy dogs they are !!!

That said, I will have to say I predicted this, and have seen a dramatic drop-off in general activity as well, CBmod not withstanding.

I've been working my a$$ off on a few shipsets, and trying my hand at a Mod as well, but it honestly seems that other than <font color="red">AT</font> or <font color="blue">Urendi Maleldil</font> all the better-known personages who once contributed strongly to SE4 have left it by the wayside, except for occasional games. No one else seems to be seriously adding to or developing anything else for it.

So, to reiterate <font color="red">AT</font> question - <font color="green">Why not get Aaron to release the source code for SE IV and let the modding community have at it?</font>

As <font color="red">AT</font> pointed out, it can't really be making any more money. To me the only real reason for holding out at this point seems to be to prevent any possible loss of interest in SE5.


IMHO http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Well, one factor is that Aaron sold the series to Strat as I understand it, so he doesn't have the only say in that.

[Fyron]

Black_Knyght said:
No one else seems to be seriously adding to or developing anything else for it.


I guess some Adamant patches don't count. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Combat Wombat put out an update (http://home.spaceempires.net/article352.html) for Invasion! (http://www.secenter.org/) a few weeks back. Doom and gloom is much more fun, however. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif


Suicide Junkie said:
Well, one factor is that Aaron sold the series to Strat as I understand it, so he doesn't have the only say in that.


He still planned to release the SE3 source code at least, but he's been dragging his heels for a year now, pending some documentation cleanup.

[Xrati]

At this price, you have to wonder how much they're making on SE5?

http://store.purplus.net/spaceempiresv.html

I'd say that the problems with SE5 has severly hurt the series.

[Artaud]

Ironmanbc said:
there are quite a few of us the STILL play SE IV (I for one still bug ya all for any update to mods)



Last week I started a new DN4.7 game, and this evening I'm going to begin a new Star Trek Mod game.

I am still trying to decide which version of the STM I want to play.

After playing the demo of SEV I decided to stay with SEIV. For me, SEIV is far from dead.

[Urendi Maleldil]

SE5 has serious usability problems. Not only that, but the eye candy that makes it so hard to use looks circa 1999.

[Fyron]

What eye candy makes SE5 hard to use? SE4 wastes as much screen space in its report screens as SE5 does (due to poor scaling to larger resolutions). Certainly the excessive clicking and poor button panel layouts harm usability, but that's not "eye candy."

[Urendi Maleldil]

I'm referring to both the interface and the 3d hex-based map. Strategy 1st seriously needs to hire a usability expert.

[Azselendor]

Urendi Maleldil said:
I'm referring to both the interface and the 3d hex-based map. Strategy 1st seriously needs to hire a usability expert.



*ducks in case Aaron chucks a coffee cup at Urendi*

[Kana]

Urendi Maleldil said:
I'm referring to both the interface and the 3d hex-based map. Strategy 1st seriously needs to hire a usability expert.



Hexes good. Interface bad. Ship layout bad. Modibility good.

[Black_Knyght]

Fyron said:
[quote]
I guess some Adamant patches don't count. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Combat Wombat put out an update for Invasion! a few weeks back. Doom and gloom is much more fun, however. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif



Apparently not as much fun as sniping at people without fully reading what was said, or trying to actually understanding it.

I didn't criticize anyone's efforts, nor did I imply they weren't valued. What I said was "No one else seems to be seriously adding to or developing anything else for it.", indicating that not much else NEW is being done, beyond occasionally updating existing Mods.

Both <font color="red">AT</font> and <font color="blue">Urendi Maleldil</font> are, and seemingly have been solely, developing <font color="green">NEW</font> mods for SE4, not updates.

While updates are terrific and always welcome, they do only improve on what's already has been done, and don't actually break any new ground.

[Fyron]

Urendi Maleldil said:
I'm referring to both the interface and the 3d hex-based map. Strategy 1st seriously needs to hire a usability expert.


What is wrong with the hex map? It provides much better geometry than a square grid, eliminating the issues with diagonal movements covering greater distances than horizontal and vertical ones.

[capnq]

Fyron said:

Urendi Maleldil said:
I'm referring to both the interface and the 3d hex-based map. Strategy 1st seriously needs to hire a usability expert.


What is wrong with the hex map? It provides much better geometry than a square grid, eliminating the issues with diagonal movements covering greater distances than horizontal and vertical ones.

The hexes aren't the problem, the 3D implementation is the problem. You constantly have to rotate the map to either find the selected object or figure out which hex you need to click to select it. Trying to get around this by switching to the 2D overhead map doesn't help, because the scale and orientation changes between views, so you've got to scroll around and search for the object again every time you switch between the two. The flags and status icons are sized such that you can either set them to be readable, or to not block other labels, but not both.

[BlueTemplar]

Exactly.

Also there is a workaround for the square grid : diagonal movement should cost you not 1 point but 1.5 points (which is pretty close to sqrt(2)=1.44...). I wonder why Aaron never thought of it...

Hexes are still better though.

[Urendi Maleldil]

There's also no point in the map being 3d, since all the movement is 2d anyway. It just makes you have to rotate and zoom for no reason.

As for hexes, I would prefer linear movement to hexes or squares. Hexes and squares are both too artificial and mess with perspective, especially in 3d.

Hex maps were created to make movement in tabletop wargames more accurate, but SE4 is a computer game. There's plenty of computing power to calculate linear, or even arced paths based on gravitation. The hex grid just makes it seem as if Aaron was too lazy to program a proper movement system.

[Xrati]

I've made this comment before and I still beleive it holds true. SE5 is orientated toward modding, rather then playing. It's a "dream come true" for all the modders out there and a "nightmare" for players. Overall, SE5 is NOT as well balanced on both sides as was SE4!!!

The game is playable, but not as playable as SE4. The game is easliy moddable as most of the text file structure is still intact from SE4. The 3D graphics have required new picture files which lost us some great ship sets. The GUI is all but smooth! It needs a lot of work and some total overhaul in areas.

If you want to make the complexity level of a game better, you don't have to have "glitter and glitz" to do it. KISS http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif is the key word here!

[Fyron]

Oi, not the game for modders argument again...

[Black_Knyght]

Why not?

[Fyron]

Rehashing broken arguments is no fun?

[Azselendor]

If I recall, aaron was unwilling to redo several features because of time constraints (you can't make money off an empty self), not many voices calling for the change, and a need to be more industry compliant in terms of appearance.

My biggest and still standing complaints for Se5 is the UI. Why can't I click'n'drag the map camera around? Why can't I drag'n'drop stuff? And so on.

[Suicide Junkie]

Here's a new version of the Windowed SE4 tool, which provides protection against having to redo your PBW turn because you hit "upgrade facilities" or the "movement replay for all ships" when there are thousands of ships in the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/MM/SE4/Tools/zip/WindowedSE4.zip

[Artaud]

capnq said:

The hexes aren't the problem, the 3D implementation is the problem. You constantly have to rotate the map to either find the selected object or figure out which hex you need to click to select it. Trying to get around this by switching to the 2D overhead map doesn't help, because the scale and orientation changes between views, so you've got to scroll around and search for the object again every time you switch between the two. The flags and status icons are sized such that you can either set them to be readable, or to not block other labels, but not both.

[/quote]

Well said. This was the most frustating thing I noticed when I began playing around with the demo. Very quickly I decided: "This is far more trouble than it's worth."

[Suicide Junkie]

The flags and status icons are sized such that you can either set them to be readable, or to not block other labels, but not both.

That's why I made the flag reduction pack.

All flags are 20% of their original area. The icons are lopped off, and replaced with "BSUP" (bases, ships, units, population) which is thin white letters on transparent.

The flags are more than big enough to tell who it is at a glance, and don't block your view. As long as there aren't two races in the same hex, it looks good. (If there are two, the other race's flag is floating way up in the sky, but that happens even with normal flags)

[Kana]

I'm curious. What features from each of the previous Space Empires would you like to see in SE6?

[Urendi Maleldil]

Kana said:
I'm curious. What features from each of the previous Space Empires would you like to see in SE6?



Appearance of SE4
Usability of SE3
Modability of SE5
Damage model of SE3
Neutrals of SE2
Research model of SE3

[Ironmanbc]

a self learning A.I. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[BlueTemplar]

Fool! Have you heard of Skynet?

[Gandalf Parker]

Speaking of Neutrals, I was debating doing some code to randomize the settings in neutrals. Has anyone done anything in that area?

[PvK]

I think not, Gandalf.

[Azselendor]

BlueTemplar said:
Fool! Have you heard of Skynet?



I for one will welcome our new robot overlords.

[Ironmanbc]

BlueTemplar said:
Fool! Have you heard of Skynet?



don't worry I have Sarah Connor as my leader http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

You should stop by the IRC channel more often http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Captain Kwok]

Gandalf Parker said:
Speaking of Neutrals, I was debating doing some code to randomize the settings in neutrals. Has anyone done anything in that area?

Neutrals in SE5 are more or less randomized in all their settings.

[Gandalf Parker]

Interesting.
Every once in awhile I try my copy of SEV again but so far it just hasnt hooked me. I probably need to check for mods again.

[Xrati]

It's OK GP! Maybe someday you'll get "into" it... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[Cipher7071]

Hi guys. Everything sure turned blue around here since my last visit.

At first glance, when I saw the title of this thread, my immediate reaction was "Oh no!" But when I realized it was just one of Atrocites' scenarios I relaxed a bit.

I was in what may have been the last SEIV version 1.49 game, and I will probably hang on quite stubbornly to Deluxe. Your beefs with the playability of SEV have allayed my immediate and insane fear that the Deluxe version would vanish from PBW.

And what's this talk of SEVI? Haven't you learned anything from watching Microsoft's succession of operating systems?

[Makinus]

While SEV is not a bad game, it's not the "spiritual sucessor" of SEIV, i always thought that SEIV is the modern sucessor of the old VGA Planets...

I do think that the good 4x space games went in this chronological progrssion:

VGA Planets > Stars! > MOO 2 > SEIV > ?

[Urendi Maleldil]

Does anyone else want to see SEIV on the iPhone?

[Makinus]

i do!

[Cipher7071]

You mean on a little bitsy screen? Some of us old guys have enough trouble seeing things on our desktops. :D

[Mabus]

There are, I suppose, those of us stuck with old computers...

I was considering buying SEV instead, when I decided to upgrade from SEIII. But when I downloaded the demo, it wouldn't run, which didn't bode well for the full game.

As for modding work...I don't know if you'd consider me a "serious" modder. Most of what I've done so far has been reincorporating elements taken from the old SEIII modpack that I downloaded. I'm still looking at the possibilities of drone warheads and so forth. Then there are the aliens--still working on those, as I lack a good graphics program. Enough of the content I've incorporated is nicked (from Fyzan's, Carriers, and so forth) that I'm not sure how I'd go about releasing if it came to that...I can see a lot of room for improvement in the files that hasn't been addressed in any mod I've seen, but that doesn't mean much.

[capnq]

Enough of the content I've incorporated is nicked (from Fyzan's, Carriers, and so forth) that I'm not sure how I'd go about releasing if it came to that...That usually just means including a readme giving credit to your sources.