Conceptual Balance 1.3, updated documentation

[quantum_mechani]

*Magic scale reset to base game.

*Domes made cheaper and easier to cast.

*More national summons covered.

*Fire, cold, shadow and arcane bolt improved.

*Many titans made cheaper or added abilities.

*Income from productivity scale improved.

*Fire shield added to solar disc.

*Dragon breath improved.

*Documentation finally updated.

[quantum_mechani]

Segmented version.

[Endoperez]

Great! Thanks for the new version.

[Edi]

Thanks for the new version. Time for me to finally check this thing out, I think. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Endoperez]

Edi said:
Thanks for the new version. Time for me to finally check this thing out, I think. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



I know the feeling. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif It's weird and nothing's quite like you remember it. There are some cool changes, though. Check out Lord of War, I really liked the CB version.

[coobe]

hm i dislike it that you changed the magic scales to vanilla http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif but ill check it out, thx for the work

[Xietor]

Tremendous scope to this mod, so no one is going to agree with everything.

I actually like the return to the vanilla magic scales.

Perhaps my favorite modification is :

"*Touch of madness and rage now cost a gem, to limit unintended AI casting."

They say imitation is the highest form of flattery. I may use something like this in my next mp game.

Baffled by the reduced cost to crumble. I use it frequently in mp already, as endgames on 300 province map are littered with castles. I like the reduced cost, as it is an effective counter to what i see as a major issue to large games after turn 50 or so. But if the reduced cost is because players do not use it enough, I use it as much as possible already.

Baffled by the reduced cost for Leprosy. It is also extremely devastating spell that i tend to use a lot with penetration items against certain nations. Sometimes diseasing an army is better than killing it as he has to keep paying upkeep for a force that cannot fight as well.

[Sombre]

Pretty sure rage and touch of madness were changed to cost a gem a version or two back.

The biggest changes this time around are to pretenders. I was talking about some of them with qm yesterday and it's amazing how the certain pretenders were given price cuts AND substantial boosts and only now seem worth the cost.

[Xietor]

It has been awhile since I looked at CBM, so the gem cost for Touch of madness may have escaped my notice before.

The Pretenders are very interesting. And this part of the mod is actually what I am considering using in my future mp games, though I need to look at each one carefully which i have not yet done.

The only Pretender(at 1st blush) I strongly disagree with is the Mater Lich, who is widely used at the vanilla cost. Why reduce the cost of pretenders that are widely used already? If a pretender is widely used at the higher cost, then a significant part of the mp community think the pretender is worth that cost.

I play the larger mp games, and perhaps the ML is not used as much in the blitz games. But I would not put too much emphasis on what occurs in a blitz setting.

[Zeldor]

Xietor:

You should be happy then that your favourite pretender got improved. Mine got more expensive :/

[Xietor]

Master Lich is a good pretender, and i have used him in 2 of my past 6 mp games. Also used the Lich and the Mother of Serpents. Mother of Serpents got reduced as well. I used the Immortal shin pretender in one, but more as a novelty. i do not think the Shin. unique hero is worth the cost.

In the 6th I used the Gorgon, whose price doubled. But I definitely understand the Gorgon being raised, though it is a shame since it is the signature Pangaea Pretender. But the Gorgon is not Pangaea only(:

Tyrant's favorite pretender IS the Master Lich however. And the Kingmaker poll showed several players using the ML, including one of my immediate neighbors.

So if the purpose of the Pretender portion of CBM is to create greater diversity, lowering the cost for a pretender already used more than most others would seem to work at cross purposes with that goal.

[Sombre]

Re: Gorgon - you should hopefully now see other signature pretenders like lord of the wild or great mother seeing use.

I thought the ML was ok at the previous price, but it is certainly possible that it's being overrated by people. It's definitely no PoD. I don't think it's been turned into a no brainer by the price reduction or anything.

[Zeldor]

One typo:

Lord of the Forest has "power to rally the beats of the wood" . Of course should be beasts, not beats.


The only one thing I don't like is increased cost for Risen Oracle. Yes, it is great pretender, but hard to do it with Agarthas as awake. They really NEED awake pretender and they also need good scales. When you meet Agartha you should be pretty much ready to face Oracle or Olm [and Olm could get some domsummon of small olms or smth else to encourage taking it awake or dormant].

[Xietor]

Agreed. The price reduction is small.

But I am not a noob, and I gladly pay the 100 points at times for the ML. Heck he was in the Hall of Fame in the 1st Big Game with 65 Nations for a long time. Shadow Blast and Banefire plus he can't die in his own dominion. And the Master Lich with astral/death combo can be quite evil, as you get risk free magic duels.

Similarly, Tyrant has played in many mp games. While there may be room for debate on his value, there is at least a strong consensus of players that favor him even at 100 points.

So my only thought is why mess with what is not clearly out of whack? We are in total agreement that many many pretenders cost way too much and are never used. And that is the appeal to me of the pretender portion of the CBM.

But I would resist the temptation to lower the value of pretenders that many expereinced mp use at the base cost. And I think the ML is the only one. So it is not a big deal.

As I mentioned to Coobe, the breadth of this mod is tremendous, and no one is going to be pleased with every single aspect of it. There is likely no other mod that has had the amount of work devoted to it. And maybe it will prompt changes.

I do think the Worthy Heroes Mod has prompted a change in thinking, as I recently observed the Agartha vanilla heroes look very Worthy! And I noted KO's comment in Kingmaker that there likely is no need to upgrade the new races heroes, as
they are tough as well.

In fact WH is so commonly used, even Edi thought one of the heroes that had been enabled in the WH mod was also enabled in the vanilla game.

So mods can serve as a testing ground, or beta test if you will. And if they work exceedingly well, then parts of them may be adopted into the base game.

[quantum_mechani]

Xietor said:
Agreed. The price reduction is small.

But I am not a noob, and I gladly pay the 100 points at times for the ML. Heck he was in the Hall of Fame in the 1st Big Game with 65 Nations for a long time. Shadow Blast and Banefire plus he can't die in his own dominion. And the Master Lich with astral/death combo can be quite evil, as you get risk free magic duels.

Similarly, Tyrant has played in many mp games. While there may be room for debate on his value, there is at least a strong consensus of players that favor him even at 100 points.

So my only thought is why mess with what is not clearly out of whack? We are in total agreement that many many pretenders cost way too much and are never used. And that is the appeal to me of the pretender portion of the CBM.

But I would resist the temptation to lower the value of pretenders that many expereinced mp use at the base cost. And I think the ML is the only one. So it is not a big deal.

As I mentioned to Coobe, the breadth of this mod is tremendous, and no one is going to be pleased with every single aspect of it. There is likely no other mod that has had the amount of work devoted to it. And maybe it will prompt changes.

I do think the Worthy Heroes Mod has prompted a change in thinking, as I recently observed the Agartha vanilla heroes look very Worthy! And I noted KO's comment in Kingmaker that there likely is no need to upgrade the new races heroes, as
they are tough as well.

In fact WH is so commonly used, even Edi thought one of the heroes that had been enabled in the WH mod was also enabled in the vanilla game.

So mods can serve as a testing ground, or beta test if you will. And if they work exceedingly well, then parts of them may be adopted into the base game.

Regarding the master liche, I have yet to ever encounter a veteran player using one, let alone winnning with it. I'm happy for someone to prove me wrong, play a duel and see how evil they really are.

As for a testing a ground for changes to the base game- only in the rarest circumstances. Firstly Illwinter has a said repeatedly they don't want to put much time into balance, and that's part of why they are supporting so much modding. Second, they are very reluctant to change anything that contradicts the manual. And thirdly their balance methods are different, while I have to use nerfs very sparingly, that is more or less the exclusive type of balancing Illwinter uses.

While I of course support using pieces and parts of the mod (that's why there is a segmented version), I do wonder if you like most the changes why you'd dismiss 75% of them out of hand.

About the magic scale, it's a very tough issue, it pains me either way it's set up. However, I have come to realize that using the dom2 magic scale in the end reduces one's options.

[Kristoffer O]

> I have yet to ever encounter a veteran player using one, let alone winnning with it.

I used one in my partially successful game as MA Mictlan (prior to the adding of skypriests etc). But I suppose I don't pick pretenders out of efficiency http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[quantum_mechani]

Obviously, it's a testament to your skill you were still able to win! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I'm quite open to the idea of not tweaking the master liche, but I know would not use him as is base game, so I'd really appreciate someone smacking me around with him to get the idea. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Xietor]

lol QM. I have won with a Master Lich, and was doing extremely well in the 1st Big Game with one when the game ended due to the unit cap(owned 7 capitals). I am sure if you made a post on the main forum numerous players would answer in the affirmative that they have won large mp games with the ML.

You cannot plan your pretender point system around blitz games(well you can but..) as they are not complete games.

So i have yet to taste defeat in 2 mp games where i used the ML, and with him i defeated numerous nations and mp, K(lanka), Tibbs(la Man), Sauromatia, Franktrollman LA Atlantis, and several other good mp in the other game.

And as i said, my ML spent a long time in the Hall of Fame in a 65 nation game. Explain that if is he is so bad. and there were 3 gorgons in that game as well.

No, I would not take a ML for a blitz game, but that is a small percentage of player time spent on games. maybe more games in toto since they end faster, but less total player time i would imagine.

The fact is the pod is useless against an astral nation. 3-4 mages spamming solar rays and he is dead. Of course if the ML dies, he just lives on to fight another day! And unlike the pod he cannot be targeted.

Immortal pretenders are good in large mp games, because it can be hard to keep them alive. you have no idea what nation you will border or will be fighting. So immortal pretenders, especially immortal rainbow pretenders that can be used in combat without fear, are valuable.

[quantum_mechani]

Xietor said:
lol QM. I have won with a Master Lich, and was doing extremely well in the 1st Big Game with one when the game ended due to the unit cap. I am sure if you made a post on the main forum numerous players would answer in the affirmative.

You cannot plan your pretender point system around blitz games(well you can but..) as they are not complete games.

So i have yet to taste defeat in 2 mp games where i used the ML, and with him i defeated numerous nations and mp, K(lanka), Tibbs(la Man), Sauromatia, Franktrollman LA Atlantis, and several other good mp in the other game.

And as i said, my ML spent a long time in the Hall of Fame in a 65 nation game. Explain that is he is so bad.

No, I would not take a ML for a blitz game, but that is a small percentage of player time spent on games. maybe more games in toto since they end faster, but less total player time i would imagine.

The fact is the pod is useless against an astral nation. 3-4 mages spamming solar rays and he is dead. Of course if the ML dies, he just lives on to fight another day! And unlike the pod he cannot be targeted.

Not all duels are blitzes, I've seen them played on very big maps. The crux of it is how well, directly or indirectly. can the master liche help you win wars. Obviously it matters what part of the game the war happens in, but I maintain that pitting nations/pretenders/options head to head is the most variable controlled way to show balance.

You have done well with the master liche in some games, but keep in mind the difference we are talking about here is less than one scale tick. I could price the master liche at 150 points, someone could play them and win. Does that mean it's a good price for him?

About the PoD and solar rays, he can make it a lot farther by holding in the back 5 rounds.

The bottom line is, I'm not especially attached to any specific price for the Master Liche, I don't consider a matter of 25 points on him a major issue. I do appreciate feedback on any changes, but the kind of things that usually help change my mind:

1. Compare ability by ability with a similar option. I.E., if you wanted to show the base game PoD/Lord of Sky weren't balanced, compare their abilities and price.
2. Beat me with the option you think is too good. This is my favorite and most sure fire option.
3. A big enough volume of response from a variety of people that support/don't support a change.

[Xietor]

Actually, my main point for you to change him back to base cost is he is used by plenty of players at the base cost.

Even if I beat you with the ML, or Tuidjy did, or you beat me, does not really decide anything. I may just be a better player than you, and I may be able to beat you with the Lord of Fertility. Or you may be able to beat me with the Lord of Fertility.

My main reason for leaving him alone is not that he is good-it is he is perceived as good by many players. Since the purpose of your pretender point redistribution system is to get players to use pretenders no one typically plays,
reducing the ML's cost does not serve the purpose of your pretender's portion of your CBM. He is already one of the most used pretenders in Dom III.

[quantum_mechani]

Oh, I agree, one player beating another with anything doesn't mean much of anything. But, by the same token, if I don't personally see an option used to good effect, I have a very hard time agreeing that it is worthwhile.

Now, your perceived goodness argument does have some merit. From this point of view, it's just a matter of perspective. You have played with a lot of people that use the master liche, I have not. In fact I can't even recall the last time I fought a newbie using one.

[Xietor]

I will save you a spot in my fall mp game then. And I will use one. Though I will likely play MA Ctis as that is the race I like the ML for. He has higher dominion than the sc liches,
and with his cheaper paths, can easily cover all the missing paths MA Ctis lacks.

[quantum_mechani]

Just being in the same game doesn't change much, I'm talking about directly fighting one. In any case, I must admit to being mystified that this, out of all the one would assume more controversial changes, is the focus of the thread!

[Xietor]

Well i can make sure you start out next to me!

Also, I am giving POSITIVE feedback on the pretender point redistribution idea. I think the idea of making the Titans more appealing is a strong one.

My one minor criticism concerns the ML, and I only voiced it because I am very familiar with that pretender.

Though not many of the players responded to the poll here is a random sampling of pretenders players took in Kingmaker

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showthreaded.php?Number=614101

[quantum_mechani]

Yeah, I saw that poll, perhaps would have been better to make it instead, what was the chassis of the last pretender you entered in MP.

[llamabeast]

Ooh ooh, new CB mod! I am very excited to take a look at this.

Also, silly as it may seem, the changed magic scale was my number 1 reason for not wanting to play CB (you must get so frustrated by all the little issues people get hung up on). Anyway, I just wanted to say I'm super happy you changed it back. If I have time I will definitely have a go at a CB game soonish.

I also really like the Master Lich by the way, having won with him a couple of times. But 25 points isn't a big deal I think.

[Xietor]

In Kingmaker I have a lich, playing LA Arcos, 5d 3e 3a. Lich, not a ML. One of my neighbors has a cyclops(japezzi), One has
an E9N4 manticore(EA Abysia), And 1 has a ML with death and Astral magic(ma Tien Chi).

Atul is my neighbor as well with Bandar Log, but I have not seen his pretender. Likely an immobile pretender with a heavy bless.

From last turn(26):

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/b6ca799f981035d291b9b27d7b8e82a12g.jpg (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=eqnixkg4m91&thumb=4)

Free scouting report for enemies! Good luck stopping him!

[quantum_mechani]

Xietor said:


From last turn(26):

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/b6ca799f981035d291b9b27d7b8e82a12g.jpg (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=eqnixkg4m91&thumb=4)

Free scouting report for enemies! Good luck stopping him!

Is this the right thread for this? CB does not even touch the normal lich.

[Xietor]

you asked what pretender i took? I was just answering your question. shrug. I aim to please.

[quantum_mechani]

Ah, I was just asking in terms of polling data, not particular people. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[cleveland]

Xietor said:
Though not many of the players responded to the poll here is a random sampling of pretenders players took in Kingmaker
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showthreaded.php?Number=614101



The war-profiteers of Arcoscephale are advised to brush up on their statistics.

54/62 nations = 88% response rate, and the poll was even created after several nations went AI. 2 Master Lichs were chosen (2/54 = 3.7%).

-----

Great work, QM, as always. Perhaps we can change the topic to Carrion Woods?

I've now survived to turn 69 in a very long <font color="brown"> CBM 1.21 </font> game as LA Pangaea. I put Carrion Woods up on ~turn 15 and have had it up continuously ever since (save a 1-turn dispel incident).

Of course I've loved it, but objectively it seems a bit disruptive...a Level-0 Nature-gem-generating Nature spell. Plus badass freespawn.

Anyone else care to chime in? Zeldor?

[DonCorazon]

I'd be curious to know what everyone's gem incomes now are all-in in Alexandria. We should jot it down and reveal once the game is over. Anwyay, I didn't know Carrion Woods gave you N gems as well but it hasn't seemed overbalancing, though I didn't fight you early on. And when we did clash, I had undead mastery which helped take the fear out of the manikin horde.

I really have no idea how LA Pan plays - isn't your population dying off and your gold income and thus ability to buy mages hurt by carrion woods?

[DonCorazon]

Btw thanks QM - I love CBM!

[cleveland]

Yeah my population has been dying off, but with all those freespawn, I never had much need to recruit any rank-and-file troops. Further mitigating the problem is that I took Growth-3 to complement Carrion Woods (increases freespawn), offsetting the pop death. Consequently, my ability to buy mages really wasn't hindered too badly.

There was a time when money was really tight, mainly because I'd racked up like 45 Pans @ 23gold/turn...with turmoil 3, dom10. To free up cash, the great Trans-Across-Pangaea Campaign was swiftly implemented, wherein all Pans were immediately ordered to cast the 3N spell Transformation. Hilarity ensued (stealty Moose death mage leading a bunch of Shades, feebleminded 4-clawed foul-spawn-of-doom patrolling down unrest with the help of black hawks, etc). Problem solved.

All-in-all, Growth-3 with Carrion Woods is probably comparable to taking Death-3, except there's no supply penalty, you get free gems, and a crap load of respectable chaff.

[Horst F. JENS]

Thanks for the mod !
I guess i have as much fun studying the readme files as creating lot's of testgames to try out all the changed pretenders.
Bye-bye, free time :-)

[Aezeal]

I was wondering what the general thoughts where considering CBM and yomi.. I was looking into thos combination since I might play it in MP and....

most seem to agree that yomi is weak as it was and that one of it's best strategies would be bakemono archers and fire arrows.

So it seems an already weak nation has gotten one of it's few viable strats nerved by the CBM, which can hardly be the intention.

(in my test game the starting army aumented by some bakemono archer saw those archer running while we where outnumbering weak indies and bashing their brain. running even while we are WINNING???)

the morale change for those archer should maybe be increasing it instead of lowering it (7 morale is really terrible)

[quantum_mechani]

Aezeal said:
I was wondering what the general thoughts where considering CBM and yomi.. I was looking into thos combination since I might play it in MP and....

most seem to agree that yomi is weak as it was and that one of it's best strategies would be bakemono archers and fire arrows.

So it seems an already weak nation has gotten one of it's few viable strats nerved by the CBM, which can hardly be the intention.

(in my test game the starting army aumented by some bakemono archer saw those archer running while we where outnumbering weak indies and bashing their brain. running even while we are WINNING???)

the morale change for those archer should maybe be increasing it instead of lowering it (7 morale is really terrible)



The thing about CB is, it is less about nation balance per se, and more about option balance. In the case of the archers, the idea is to create some incentive recruit the melee bakemono. That said I'm certainly open to looking at other way to try and solve that problem. And of course fire arrows has much more far reaching need of a nerf than relates to Yomi.

Even taking both those things into account though, I think it's difficult to argue Yomi was made weaker in CB. Demon troops are across the board cheaper, and even one of thier mages. And perhaps more significantly, other very strong nations/options Yomi had to be afraid of were taken down a notch (helhirdlings, niefel giants, some super sc pretenders).

[Sombre]

As I always suggest - make Bakemono size 1. Apart from making sense on the common and thematic levels, it will significantly improve them in melee.

[HoneyBadger]

Hopefully at some point we'll have a National Balance Mod. CBM seems to be more about strategic balancing than the more tactical aspects of nation-tweaking.

[quantum_mechani]

I have thought about making optional add on to CB that's more about nation balance. I doubt it would be that popular though, since it would necessitate a lot of nerfs.

[Sombre]

I don't think it's worth attempting to be honest. I personally don't have a problem with some nations being stronger, within reason. I believe a lot of people feel the same way.

But options are always good.

[Aezeal]

I know I know.. but Yomi seems especially weak to me already and the CBM doesn't seem to be helping that much. Also on a more background kind of motive: I think there still isn't that much incentive to go demons while this is sort of a demon race.

I think Yomi would deserve a little more love, I don't suggest to make them on par with Niefel, Hinnom or Lanka.

My suggestions:
- more ammo for their demons thrown fire and maybe a little extra damage and range there too. (so you have decent stand and shoot and then melee troops in the largest demons and a line of "archers" behind them in the smaller fire throwers.
- morale 8 for those archers



I guess a national only fire arrows with regulare cost isn't an option?

[Zeldor]

QM:

There is still a lot of place for adding and improving units. Even if it gets a bit unthematic or stretched. I am sure there are many people that would want to have an option to play with much more improved balance. I am fine with some nations being stronger but I just cannot accept the fact that some nations are extremely overpowered in almost every aspect of the game. You find a cool nation, you want to play it in MP and then you discover it sucks and you should thank the god if you are alive at turn 20.

If you make smth like that I will start MP game with that. It may even get some people to touch so unbalanced early age [I noticed there are very few games in that age and they are pretty much dominated by very few nations].

[quantum_mechani]

Aezeal said:
I know I know.. but Yomi seems especially weak to me already and the CBM doesn't seem to be helping that much. Also on a more background kind of motive: I think there still isn't that much incentive to go demons while this is sort of a demon race.

I think Yomi would deserve a little more love, I don't suggest to make them on par with Niefel, Hinnom or Lanka.

My suggestions:
- more ammo for their demons thrown fire and maybe a little extra damage and range there too. (so you have decent stand and shoot and then melee troops in the largest demons and a line of "archers" behind them in the smaller fire throwers.
- morale 8 for those archers



I guess a national only fire arrows with regulare cost isn't an option?

More ammo is really not a bad idea. All in all though I'd probably prefer just more straight cost cuts (less confusion when changing prices than the nature of troops).

[quantum_mechani]

Zeldor said:
QM:

There is still a lot of place for adding and improving units. Even if it gets a bit unthematic or stretched. I am sure there are many people that would want to have an option to play with much more improved balance. I am fine with some nations being stronger but I just cannot accept the fact that some nations are extremely overpowered in almost every aspect of the game. You find a cool nation, you want to play it in MP and then you discover it sucks and you should thank the god if you are alive at turn 20.

If you make smth like that I will start MP game with that. It may even get some people to touch so unbalanced early age [I noticed there are very few games in that age and they are pretty much dominated by very few nations].

Well, the thing is, if I did it I think it would be more nerfs than boosts. Much easier make those crazy nations a bit less so than boost up every militia to their level. Actually there is a pretty decent sized pile of such balance measures already done but cut from CB due to unpopularity.

[HoneyBadger]

I wouldn't want all nations to be perfectly balanced against each other. It makes them too similar. But each nation should atleast be fun to play in Multiplayer, and the balancing issues should atleast be addressed, even if they sometimes get overrode by other considerations.

And if a nation is weak, then it deserves more consideration, and more time spent on it. It's a credit to Illwinter that I can't think of a single nation that everyone universally hates-they might be considered unbalanced, but each nation has it's fans. They're all interesting in their own way, and so they do deserve time and effort to update them.

[quantum_mechani]

HoneyBadger said:
It's a credit to Illwinter that I can't think of a single nation that everyone universally hates-they might be considered unbalanced, but each nation has it's fans.

I find it hard to imagine this would not be the case, almost regardless.

[HoneyBadger]

To a point, but even so, it's remarkable to me that people will shout from the very mountaintops about how poorly a given nation functions in MP, but if you then question it's thematic character, they'll defend it with the same passion. Out of 50 plus nations, you'd think that atleast one would be popularly disliked. I just haven't noticed that happening, for any nation.

[Sombre]

I think prior to the recent updating LA Abysia wasn't well liked and I haven't heard anyone really talking about the new stuff it got either.

[HoneyBadger]

That might have something to do with the new nations, though-they've kind of outshone some of the nations that were less popular to begin with-including any recent additions to them.

I never said that every nation is passionately loved, some *are* less popular than others, naturally. Just none that have stood out as particularly disliked.

Also, the Late Age is a little skewed on that, I think. Being dominated by Ermor and R'lyeh seems to cast a shadow on some of the other late ages nations, and with magic also being on the wane, it seems a bit less suited for the casual fantasy gamer, and more for the wargamer (who then must digest Ermor and R'lyeh's advantages). I for one don't play Late Age nearly as much as EA and MA, in part because of that.

[Zeldor]

There are very few games that allow R'lyeh and Ermor. At least R'lyeh gets banned in 99% MP games. I find LA really nice without those 2 nations, but it surely has too much blood in it.
EA seems most unbalanced of all with all that sacred powerhouses. It really limit your choices to few nations if you have any serious plans. And even if you are a genius you won't survive with weaker nations, unless you are really lucky.

[Xietor]

I have looked more at the mod, but still have not had time to play a game with it.

Thoughts:

I like the scale changes. In kingmaker too many negative scales. Every single one of my neighbors have misfortune, typically with 3 order. And that is with the Worthy heroes incentive to not take misfortune.

I am not going to list all of the changes I agree with, but give feedback on those I disagree with:

Summons:

watcher-5 air gems-what is wrong with 5 air gems? You get a unit that has a patrol bonus that can uncover spies in 1 turn typically, and high precision and lightning. If you do not have mind hunt and spies are causing unrest, a watcher can be a saver-and a cheap one at that for 5 gems.

Aside from insane patrol bonus they can do some damage with very high precision and lightning.


Curse of blood-I still like the vampire at 77 blood slaves. He is immortal, has 3 d and 3 blood, and flies. Plus he summons more immortals with life drain. A pack of these can take down an sc. bloodslaves are easier to get then gems.

Plus if you summon 1 vampire, he can blood hunt and get your 77 bloodslaves back for you in a few turns. 44 seems like a steal. you can have unlimited vampires, unlike the blood royalty, so summoning one is a sure thing.

Constr item changes i disagree with:

Ax of hate-one of the best weapons in the game. Now at constr 2?

silver hauberk-one of the best mage chest pieces in the game. seemed fine at constr 4. if you are fighting a nation hitting you with numerous seeking arrows every turn, you quickly see the value of this item. low enc, good protection.

Vision foe-a ranged item that can give afflictions. why make it easier to obtain?


Without playing actual games with the entire CBM, my input is given without full working understanding of how the entire thing meshes together. And in that sense I realize my input is not as valuable as people that are playing mp games with the cbm.

But most mod authors like input on their mods, and i wanted to give mine, whether it has much in the way of value or not.

[quantum_mechani]

Some of these seem debatable (and I'd like to hear others opinions on them), but silver hauberk to be honest I still regard as pretty close to junk even in CB. Robe of missile protection is much cheaper and handles the same mage protection problem- and doesn't even add any enc. It's possible for very key mages you might favor the hauberk, but that's extremely niche at best, not something thats is going to be overused.

The watcher has a large number of difficulties. Unusual path combo, niche use (mostly vs spies), and taking a mage turn _every turn_ for patrolling. It's possible to find a situation to use them, but again I can't see it getting over used.

Along with all it's other artifact bow cousins, vision's foe has a couple major liabilities in the form of frequent misses and shield parries. It also again has an unusual path combo which make it's use very rare.

Axe of hate and vampire lord are things I have never ever seen used base game, and also not seen yet CB. It's possible they are diamonds in the rough, but if so I can't think of a better way to bring them to the forefront than with some incentives.

[Xietor]

Vision foe is good against things that do not have shields and can be specifically targeted and are raiding your provinces, manticore, other large flying sc's without full slots. Admittedly a niche use however.

Besides patrolling, a watcher for 5 air gems is not bad in a battle. Unless the thug is 100 sr, is likely is going to take significant damage.

And in response to those numerous "how do i kill this water Queen" threads, though i have never replied to them, i have brought them down in mp games with packs of vampires. Risk free since it was in my own dominion.

Some nations, like Pangaea, only have the paths for curse of blood. And in Alpaca, because i was 2 drain as well, all the blood royalty was taken since i was dead last in research.

[quantum_mechani]

None of these I said had no use. However, I do see them very rarely if ever used, and if they have a somwhat obscure niche, what's the harm in rewarding somebody who thinks of them?

[Horst F. JENS]

LA Argatha Hero (the possessed flame corpse, Nr 2835) description say he has some skill in fire magic, but he has only fire resistance and immortality. (of course he explode when dying).
I never saw him in vanilla game so i cannot say if his lacking fire magic skill is a bug from dominions or from cbm. However it would be nice if he had as last Fire Skill 1 to cast Fire Shield before blowing up.

[quantum_mechani]

They are the same as in worthy heroes, where as I recall Turin game them a variable fire magic skill from 0-3.

[Horst F. JENS]

Enchanted Forest (Conj. 9, N7) cost 320 Nature Gems ?
Is this a bug ?

[quantum_mechani]

Yes, that's a bug, thanks you for spotting it.

[Morkilus]

Cheaper vampires are something I can appreciate.

I agree wholeheartedly on the magic scale rollback.

[Horst F. JENS]

LA Argatha, ageless olm hero: i got 3 of them, description says the Olm have earth and water magic "of varying power", however all my Olm heroes have no magic.
Did anyone managed to get heroes with magic skills ?

[quantum_mechani]

I wonder if that might be due to the mod interference bug. Or there is a WH/CB bug.

[iceboy]

quantum_mechani said:
I wonder if that might be due to the mod interference bug. Or there is a WH/CB bug.



Did I miss something? Is the new Worthy Heroes attached to CBM?

[quantum_mechani]

WH 1.8 is.

[iceboy]

quantum_mechani said:
WH 1.8 is.



Isn't WH 1.8 incompatible with the current patch?

[TheMenacer]

My copy of WH/CB works just fine with the current patch, I find I can't have more than CB and maybe a mod nation enabled before I start getting interference, so you might just have one too many patches enabled.

[Ming]

quantum_machanics,

Your comment on oni cost reduction in CBM got me interested in CBM and I just downloaded a copy to play around. I noticed the following:

Errors:

Titan (female) has base research 29
Lord of the forest: Typo in description: "beats" should be "beasts"

Oni:

Shinuyama can summon 3 oni for 3 gems (conj3) and 4 kuo-oni for 3 gems (conj4) but Yomi need to pay 35 gold each and 45 gold each respectively for these units. I also noticed that some other low level summons has drastically reduced costs (but those have no recruitable equivalent). So does this imply that gems are far more important in CBM than in the base game (so alchemy is even less desirable), and is it intentional that Shinuyama should be more powerful than Yomi - much cheaper access to oni?

Please bear with me if I am completely off the mark. CBM's changes are very extensive and probably changes the game in ways that I am not aware off - I have only spent an hour or so with it.

Last but not least, my hat off to you - I cannot imagine the number of hours you have put into such a massive project.

[Dragar]

I'm preparing for an upcoming CBM and playing pythium for the first time..

Looking down the conjuration spell list I'm confused - the national summons in the manual aren't there, but the Sirrush and some kind of conj 9 hydra is.

Is this a CBM change and just not documented? Am I missing something? What is the C9 hydra like?

Thanks,
D

[llamabeast]

It sounds like you're playing LA Pythium and reading the manual entry for MA Pythium (which isn't even present in the manual since it was introduced in a patch).

[Dragar]

Ah ok

So is the information on the conj 9 hydra anywhere? Can't seem to find it in anything

[Kuritza]

Bogarus malaya druzhina still lack lances. They have both warhorse hoof and a regular hoof though. Guess one is horse's, second is rider's. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[llamabeast]

Just find the debug mod (in the mod list, I think), and you will be able to cast all spells without doing any research.

It's quite a beast I think - immortal, even - but either isn't a commander or has poor slots, can't remember which.

[Dragar]

will have to download the debug mod when i get home, too tiring playing it all the way to C9 just for that!

thanks llama

[darloth]

I found some spelling errors and other typos, so I fixed them. There were a couple of incorrect mod keywords as well, I'm not sure what they were doing, but now a couple of things in theory will work better.

I've only included the .dm because it's the only file I've changed, you can diff the changes if you want to see what exactly has been done. I've left alone all american / british spelling differences and not changed anything where I wasn't sure of the correct one, but it might be worth checking anyway. If you don't like me correcting your work, that's fine, just tell me and I'll delete the post, but I thought I'd at least offer the chance of other people benefiting from my 10 minutes going through with a spellcheck routine.

[quantum_mechani]

I found some spelling errors and other typos, so I fixed them. There were a couple of incorrect mod keywords as well, I'm not sure what they were doing, but now a couple of things in theory will work better.

I've only included the .dm because it's the only file I've changed, you can diff the changes if you want to see what exactly has been done. I've left alone all american / british spelling differences and not changed anything where I wasn't sure of the correct one, but it might be worth checking anyway. If you don't like me correcting your work, that's fine, just tell me and I'll delete the post, but I thought I'd at least offer the chance of other people benefiting from my 10 minutes going through with a spellcheck routine.Thanks Darloth, I certain don't object to some help in polishing. Every time I release a new version I realize right a way a half dozen little bugs/problem that I didn't catch.

[darloth]

I can't find an edit button (edit: Ahh, it appears to be one of those high tech eventually-disappearing edit buttons) so I'll just have to make a new post.

I missed "beats" even though the thread has pointed it out twice, because of course beats is a real word so the spellchecker skipped it. More importantly, I changed thraldom into thralldom, which I shouldn't have done as that's an item name and would break anyone who expected to start with it. So, a couple of slight changes later, and new one. Oops ^_^

[Aezeal]

I think the cleansing bell is a bit cheap now.. against demon or undead it's VERY powerfull and for 5 gems it's a bit overpowered. While not equipment for a die hard SC it can be very usefull for troops with a bit of staying power. (I'm using them against Lanka in MP and on blessed Niefel Jarls you get quite some punch out of them, basicly much more kill since their usual main strat is just wait till frost kicks in.. now whileI'm waiting demons fall left and right)

[HoneyBadger]

I'd like to make a general statement disagreeing with lowering the cost of a spell *just* because it's unpopular. If it's unpopular because it's not very good, then I think steps should be taken to find ways to make it more effective, rather than just cheaper, because what's the point of a cheap spell that still isn't worth casting? I don't know how easy this would be, but if a spell can be modded by cost, it seems reasonable that there are ways to mod it more potent.

[JimMorrison]

Well gem cost reduction means the most in summons - and maybe got cost reduced and/or # summoned increased. So in those cases it's more just about making the spells gem effective, since all summons are potentially useful, just in vanilla many are neither gem nor time efficient.

I do think that tweaking the costs of unique artifacts is a bit silly though, except maybe to raise the cost of some to reflect their perceived value.

[Kuritza]

Still, how about fixing Bogarus cavalry? Its their only damage dealing troop after all. Malaya Druzhina still have no lances, Grid Druzhina has lances instead of bows (wich makes sense), but no shields (which makes no sense since they lost bows).

[Epaminondas]

I have a strange anomaly, and I am wondering if it's being reproduced in others. Namely, the Great Enchantress changes are not applied in the game. I also tried to change the Great Enchantress in a different way than those registered in this mod, and that didn't work either. So I am wondering if the unit ID # given in the game itself when you "shift + i" is inaccurate.

[Epaminondas]

I have looked more at the mod, but still have not had time to play a game with it.

Thoughts:

I like the scale changes. In kingmaker too many negative scales. Every single one of my neighbors have misfortune, typically with 3 order. And that is with the Worthy heroes incentive to not take misfortune.

I am not going to list all of the changes I agree with, but give feedback on those I disagree with:

Summons:

watcher-5 air gems-what is wrong with 5 air gems? You get a unit that has a patrol bonus that can uncover spies in 1 turn typically, and high precision and lightning. If you do not have mind hunt and spies are causing unrest, a watcher can be a saver-and a cheap one at that for 5 gems.

Aside from insane patrol bonus they can do some damage with very high precision and lightning.


Curse of blood-I still like the vampire at 77 blood slaves. He is immortal, has 3 d and 3 blood, and flies. Plus he summons more immortals with life drain. A pack of these can take down an sc. bloodslaves are easier to get then gems.

Plus if you summon 1 vampire, he can blood hunt and get your 77 bloodslaves back for you in a few turns. 44 seems like a steal. you can have unlimited vampires, unlike the blood royalty, so summoning one is a sure thing.

Constr item changes i disagree with:

Ax of hate-one of the best weapons in the game. Now at constr 2?

silver hauberk-one of the best mage chest pieces in the game. seemed fine at constr 4. if you are fighting a nation hitting you with numerous seeking arrows every turn, you quickly see the value of this item. low enc, good protection.

Vision foe-a ranged item that can give afflictions. why make it easier to obtain?


Without playing actual games with the entire CBM, my input is given without full working understanding of how the entire thing meshes together. And in that sense I realize my input is not as valuable as people that are playing mp games with the cbm.

But most mod authors like input on their mods, and i wanted to give mine, whether it has much in the way of value or not.

I agree with most of your points. Not just the magic items, but I disagree with most of the changes making spells more powerful and easier to cast. The only significant exception is domes, as they were initially too expensive and took too long to research.

[Epaminondas]

By the way, I ought to add that the mod is a stupendous work. So please don't take my disagreement about the changes to items and spells as indicative of my assessment of the mod overall.

[quantum_mechani]

I have a strange anomaly, and I am wondering if it's being reproduced in others. Namely, the Great Enchantress changes are not applied in the game. I also tried to change the Great Enchantress in a different way than those registered in this mod, and that didn't work either. So I am wondering if the unit ID # given in the game itself when you "shift + i" is inaccurate.Well that is pretty baffling, every thing looks fine as far as I can see.

As for bogarus cavalry, I thought I fixed that this version but guess it slipped through.

About making spells and items easier/more powerful, as I've said before my assessment method is pretty simple, if I never see something being made use of, I improve it. This is naturally not full proof, but I think it would be hard to argue that on the whole it doesn't work out to a closer balance than base game. And of course the key thing to refining the balance is feedback. I have actually come around somewhat on the vampires, next version they will probably be 66.

[Tifone]

Great work with that. I have always been reluctant using mods, I like to play games the way devs thought it... but this mod adds a lot of things I like... and for the (few) ones I don't... oh well c'est la vie ^^

May I bring one small suggestion? On a discussion about fortune telling, I brought the idea of the Oracle pretender having it, for thematic reasons. Even KO agreed it was not a bad idea. Maybe it could be nice if the CBM puts some of this ability (3 points? 5?) on the Oracle (let's say for half the points of a Luck scale, as it would prevent bad events in the capital to happen in the moment you need it more for Misfortune choosers - at the beginning). I think it would be a nice and thematic addition, as it is an immobile chassis which ppl will take awaken for the gems it gives in the mod, it could open a new nice strategic opportunity ^^

[Sombre]

I agree, fortune telling on the oracle would be good.

I just want to say, once again, how much I love this mod. If I could I'd play cbm exclusively. I hope you continue to work on it qm, using the new features like water and forest shape etc in interesting ways.

[Tifone]

One nice thing to use for this mod would be if the devs add the command asked today... the one for new "second shapes" that some commanders already get when they're prophetized ^^ I think i.e. Oni Generals of Yomi would really deserve something this nice ^^

[HoneyBadger]

Quantum Mechani, could you look at the possibility of making EA Abyssia's Demonbred commanders non-Capital? Have you already considered this? They're one of the easiest and best ways for EA Abyssia to break into other forms of damage than Fire, and since they're Commanders, they still can only be recruited 1 at a time. Doing so would give EA Abyssia a competitive boost that I would assume is much needed, now that EA Gath and Lanka are running around.

I can't imagine that, as Capital-Only, they're used very often, and making them non-Cap opens up some interesting directions that a player using Abyssia might choose to take.

Thanks!

[Sombre]

A thought for CBM that I believe I've mentioned before: Skirmisher shields.

Currently a fairly useful unit against massed xbows is a cheap fairly low rcost unit with a shield. This is because if the bolt is parried by the shield, prot no longer matters. Cheap units /without/ shields are generally too quickly killed no matter what their cost and numbers, to be a useful counter.

But I personally feel the counter is not well realised enough. Although it's certainly better for a cheap prot 5 guy with a shield and a spear to be used as crossbow fodder than a medium infantry with prot 13 and a shield, or any unit without a shield, it isn't the kind of significant difference that makes you want to actually use light/skirmmish infantry.

So what I propose is that suitable 'skirmisher' units, such as the Arco peltast, get special 'skirmish' versions of their current shields. So the Velite would get a 'Skirmish Tower Shield' instead of a shield, the Peltast a 'Skirmish Shield' and the Machaka jav armed warrior a 'Skirmish Hide Shield'. How would these shields differ? Well they'd have an extra point of parry and a slightly lower prot value. This represents the fact that though the shield is no larger, the skirmisher is used to using it as his first and last line of defence - he understands better than others how to shelter from missile fire and he doesn't have such heavy equipment, armor and weapons wise, allowing him more freedom to manuever his shield. With the parry 1 level higher, he's significantly better against missile fire, while still being killable and expendable - he's also more likely to parry in melee, particularly with his already high def score (due to lack of malus from heavy armor), however with the reduced prot (you can imagine the skirmisher uses a slightly lighter version of the shield, or that he's less able to ignore glancing blows due to lack of armour) if he does parry and it's against heavy infantry, cavalry or the like, he's still toast, just like before.

Thoughts?

[llamabeast]

I think that sounds like a great idea.

[Sombre]

As a sub-suggestion:

I believe (pending testing later today) that Jotun and Agarthan boulders are parryable, even by something like the machakan hide shield. Making them AN or AP won't change this and making them AOE-1 is basically too nuts.

However there is a way to make missile weapons unparryable by shields. I did it with the skink blowpipes to make them good anti skirmisher weapons and I also did it with the Warplightning Thrower of the Skaven, because it didn't make sense for AN warp energy blasts to be parried by shields. All you need to do is make the actual weapon do 1 damage, capped. Then you add a #secondaryeffectalways of something like 'Boulder impact' with an appropriate damage value. Voila! Unparryable boulders that aren't aoe.

[llamabeast]

It'd seem harsh, though, that the shield protection wasn't used against the boulders. A heavily shielded unit should be at least somewhat protected against the boulders.

[Sombre]

This is true. A heavy tower shield should add at least something to your prot vs the boulder. However given the choice between a tower shield not adding any prot against a big boulder and a machakan with a hide shield batting it away like it's an sling stone, I know which I prefer.

[Tifone]

I don't think I would try to parry a giant piece of rock coming to my face, expecially if thrown by an enormous, strong cyclops :confused: it is dodge or be squeezed, in reality (sadly)

Oh, I don't want to become the "Fortuneteller guy", but I think from the description both the Lady of Fortune and the Lord of Plenty may deserve some Fortunetelling ability, as they both are supposed to "bring luck to the people around them"... yet they don't have the tag... so, maybe not the amount right for the Oracle, but some Fortunetelling would add some flavour :happy:

[Sombre]

Well the lady of fortune increases luck scale iirc.

[Endoperez]

Well the lady of fortune increases luck scale iirc.

Generates good events regardless of Luck scale, I think. Similar to how Doom Horrors make bad events.

[cleveland]

While updating the CBM Forging References, I found two small :bug:s.

The first :bug: is with the Evening Star. It is not working as intended due to 2 misspellings of the word "effect". Currently, the erroneous code is:


#selectitem "Evening Star"
#constlevel 2
#end

#selectweapon 304
#secondaryefect 0
#end

#selectweapon 304
#secondaryefectalways 305
#endThe second :bug: is with the 2-handed Bane Blade. It is still a Construction-2 item, though presumably should be a Construction-0 item like its 1-handed brother. This is because they're both called "Bane Blade" and the game only mods the first, 1-handed version.

--------------

Both :bug:s can easily be corrected by appending your CBcomplete_1.3.dm file with the following code:


#selectweapon 304
#secondaryeffect 0
#end

#selectweapon 304
#secondaryeffectalways 305
#end

#selectitem 30
#constlevel 0
#end

[fungalreason]

Typo for the phoenix pretender description "... but lcks the physical strgth..."

[rabelais]

heya, I've been messing around with MA Man in CBM, and have discovered two things which I didn't know.

Knights of avalon aren't sacred despite costing more than knights of the shroud (EA ERMOR) which have recup as well... is it just paying for speed?

This doesn't bother me so much, since I doubt I would use them at the price even if they were... cheap stealthy wardens are clearly better assuming you don't need strat move 3.

The second thing does surprise me and I'd like to ask why it was done.... man MA longbows only have range 35 now, which makes any old composite bow (even in EA) superior.

This is bizarre and arguably some sort of dominions sacrilege, and especially unexpected as the resource cost was bumped up.

It's true than man's longbows were best in game, but they haven't much else going for them, and there doesn't seem to be a way to maintain an advantage (i.e dispel storm or arrow fend), so its hardly unbalancing.

Anyway just wanted to get that off my chest... now I have to go back to designing an MA man pretender for Dodeicus, that won't be a total pushover.

Send me a PM if you have any ideas.

[quantum_mechani]

heya, I've been messing around with MA Man in CBM, and have discovered two things which I didn't know.

Knights of avalon aren't sacred despite costing more than knights of the shroud (EA ERMOR) which have recup as well... is it just paying for speed?

This doesn't bother me so much, since I doubt I would use them at the price even if they were... cheap stealthy wardens are clearly better assuming you don't need strat move 3.

The second thing does surprise me and I'd like to ask why it was done.... man MA longbows only have range 35 now, which makes any old composite bow (even in EA) superior.

EDIT: Thanks fungalreason and cleveland, I'll look into those for next version.

This is bizarre and arguably some sort of dominions sacrilege, and especially unexpected as the resource cost was bumped up.

It's true than man's longbows were best in game, but they haven't much else going for them, and there doesn't seem to be a way to maintain an advantage (i.e dispel storm or arrow fend), so its hardly unbalancing.

Anyway just wanted to get that off my chest... now I have to go back to designing an MA man pretender for Dodeicus, that won't be a total pushover.

Send me a PM if you have any ideas.Knights of Avalon were never sacred... I leave such thematic decisions to KO.

The longbow thing was a change I thought I rolled back, I guess it's still in there somewhere.

EDIT: Thanks fungalreason and cleveland, I'll look into those next version.

[rabelais]

Hey qm, I just want to emphasize, since tone is hard to intergrate into font, that this mod is teh awesome. Making pretender choice interesting even by itself would merit you a shrine, the masses of great other stuff is just gravy. Wasn't implying I was unhappy witht he mod, just kvetching as a Man player under the gun....

I'm treating this as a discussion thread, but if I'm posting in the wrong place let me know.

One thing I think you might consider for a future version is giving each nation a bless pretender for their natural magic paths. Sort of like the bahomet for mari, but with some variation depending on thematic preferences. If someone is willing to take an immobile pretender that doesn't expand their magic diversity at all, I think they deserve a discount.

For example when I was trying to find an earth nature bless for Maverni, I had either to pay through the nose with an 80 pont new path (greek) cyclope, the 60 point new path nature serpent (who I love btw) or I was briefly envious that some nations get the gorgon, but realized that wasn't thematically much better. I could of couse take the goddess of willendorf... except she's well... as expensive as usual, and my tramplers ALWAYS die. etc. I eventually went with an (imprisioned)lord of the forest, but I didn't want an SC just a bless.... something like the Spirit of Maverni 2e/2n dom 4 would have been lovely even if it costs 75 points or whatever would pass as exorbitant.

Just a thought, and thanks for all your work,


Rabe

[Gregstrom]

The serpent and monolith are pretty much as thematic as you get for Marverni pretenders, and you'd have had better results for your points (on an E9/N8 or 9 bless) with the Serpent than the Lord of the Forest.

[Gandalf Parker]

Just a note:
I notice alot of misspellings in the dm file itself.
Maybe we could get Edi to look at it?

[lch]

I noticed a number of spelling errors, too, playing in a MP game with CB included. It seems that the descriptions, whereever they come from, aren't that homogenous, too. But I might think that Edi would gladly reject doing any more work. ;) For most things, running it through a spellcheck should work, I think.

[quantum_mechani]

Hey qm, I just want to emphasize, since tone is hard to intergrate into font, that this mod is teh awesome. Making pretender choice interesting even by itself would merit you a shrine, the masses of great other stuff is just gravy. Wasn't implying I was unhappy witht he mod, just kvetching as a Man player under the gun....

I'm treating this as a discussion thread, but if I'm posting in the wrong place let me know.

One thing I think you might consider for a future version is giving each nation a bless pretender for their natural magic paths. Sort of like the bahomet for mari, but with some variation depending on thematic preferences. If someone is willing to take an immobile pretender that doesn't expand their magic diversity at all, I think they deserve a discount.

For example when I was trying to find an earth nature bless for Maverni, I had either to pay through the nose with an 80 pont new path (greek) cyclope, the 60 point new path nature serpent (who I love btw) or I was briefly envious that some nations get the gorgon, but realized that wasn't thematically much better. I could of couse take the goddess of willendorf... except she's well... as expensive as usual, and my tramplers ALWAYS die. etc. I eventually went with an (imprisioned)lord of the forest, but I didn't want an SC just a bless.... something like the Spirit of Maverni 2e/2n dom 4 would have been lovely even if it costs 75 points or whatever would pass as exorbitant.

Just a thought, and thanks for all your work,


Rabe Adding new content is a bit beyond the scope of the mod at the moment, but I do appreciate any feedback I can get. Glad you enjoy the mod.

As far as spelling, yeah it's an issue, I keep forgetting to work on that when I release a new version.

[Gandalf Parker]

Taking so many different modules by different people and getting them to work together is a chore enough. When you are reading thru such adds you are catching modding errors and conflicts. Kudos to you for it. I can totally understand each authors minor spelling errors slipping thru. For someone like that, a proofreader tackling it with a fresh eye would be more effective. Edi has been doing that for the devs and doing a great job (hence little things like descripts and events getting fixed). Thats why I thought of him first.

[Endoperez]

Barthulf (377) hero of MA Ulm shouldn't have Star of Heroes (173) the armor-breaking morning star. Its area effect can affect him and his bodyguards, and it takes several turns to get the armor repaired even in a mountain province.

Star of Thraldom might work better, or perhaps Holy Scourge (even if it's two-handed usually). It should be possible to mod a 2-handed weapon and a shield to the same unit.

[rdonj]

If someone were to read through the mod and look for spelling errors... in what format would you like to see (proposed)corrections made?

[Horst F. JENS]

i always look forward for the next version of the CBM mod and i don't care about the spelling.

[iceboy]

Is this mod still usable with patch 3.21?

[llamabeast]

Yep, I'm pretty sure it is.

[vfb]

While updating the CBM Forging References, I found two small :bug:s.

The first :bug: is with the Evening Star. It is not working as intended due to 2 misspellings of the word "effect". Currently, the erroneous code is:


#selectitem "Evening Star"
#constlevel 2
#end

#selectweapon 304
#secondaryefect 0
#end

#selectweapon 304
#secondaryefectalways 305
#end

What's the effect of the bug? I've been running around in a couple games with Evening Stars because with AOE5 they are pretty spectacular. Does secondaryeffectalways versus secondaryeffect introduce friendly fire?

[calmon]

secondaryeffect means the target needs to be hitted (sucessfull attack vs defence strike) to get the effect.

secondaryeffectalways just needs an attack, sucessfully or not the effect will be processed. Thats why the brand weapons are so usefull.

With the misspell secondaryeffect is used (like the item in base game uses).

With a triggered AOE>1 on a weapon/effect you always risk to hit yourself.

[Endoperez]

With a triggered AOE>1 on a weapon/effect you always risk to hit yourself.

Especially annoying with that MA Ulm hero that gets Star of Heroes in CB, and runs around destorying both his own and his bodyguard-Black Knights' armors. And then it takes several turns in a mountain province before their armor comes back. :(

[vfb]

secondaryeffect means the target needs to be hitted (sucessfull attack vs defence strike) to get the effect.

secondaryeffectalways just needs an attack, sucessfully or not the effect will be processed. Thats why the brand weapons are so usefull.

With the misspell secondaryeffect is used (like the item in base game uses).

With a triggered AOE>1 on a weapon/effect you always risk to hit yourself.

Thanks! I'm using thugs with a high attack, so I never noticed a difference. They're FR and have regen so I've avoided self-inflicted damage. I suppose if I'd have tried it on a low attack unit like a Golem I might have been disappointed, but the Evening Star's got +6 attack, so it should hit more often than not.

[Ruminant]

Not sure if this is the right place, but I found a small, almost insignificant bug. Niefelheim giants (the big sacred troops) have their ages changed from 300 out of a 1000 to 22 out of 50, same as humans. It's not mentioned in the patch notes so I assumed it was unintentional, not some nerf of them for balance. Sorry if it's been mentioned already in the previous 12 pages.

Anyhoo, truly an awesome mod. Thank you for extending my enjoyment of the game! :angel

[Tifone]

Given that I'm a big fan of this mod, q.m., I'd like to suggest you to rethink the "Touch of Madness policy" of making it cost a N gem. While Blink is often just annoying and making it require 1 S gem to cast is great, ToM has some important uses.
If the opportunity that the caster himself goes Berserkr annoys you so much you could maybe consider, if you can, to increase the range. But for i.e. a maenad EA Pangaea this spell is almost a must, even with the chance of some random Pan going mad sometimes, so well... think bout it. :)

Just a suggestion ;) I continue thinking the mod is great fun

[iceboy]

Any new upcoming versions of CBM planned? Love this mod! CBM has made my single play experience against the AI much more challenging! Thanks QM! :)

[Horst F. JENS]

i will not go so far as saying "vanilla dom3 sucks" .......
but men, you spoke out of my heart... love that cbm mod.

[iceboy]

I dont know if this has to do with the CBM mod or the Worthy Heroes mod but playing as Atlantis the hornblower hero appeared and drowned. I use the worthy heroes mod + burning heroes. Is there a way to fix this so that water nations do not get land heroes that will drown?

Edit: Ah this might be the problem:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=36670

The horn blower heroe of Marverni is available as a pretender for all nations of all ages.
It is a bit strange.
Many greetings for the update.

[JimMorrison]

Suggestion for next iteration (and thank you for this, <3 CBM!):

Hidden in Snow and Hidden in Sand are ridiculously too expensive for what you get. Even dropping them to 50 gems may not make them cost effective enough, but still might have people casting them occasionally, from Enchantment bonus sites.

[Sombre]

As has been noted, the Bogarus heavy cavalry Grid and Malai Druzhina have weapon problems. Looking in the dm, it seems you've also used #rec instead of #rcost, so their resource costs are higher than you intended, I think.

[rabelais]

I'm having repeated nagot problems with can't open: dogfriend.tga from worthy heroes 1.8, given the only mod I have installed is CBM, and reinstalling it hasn't helped, anyone have advice how to get my dom3 working again?

[Sombre]

CBM comes with that graphic in a subfolder. Are you sure it's extracted properly?

[vfb]

Still, how about fixing Bogarus cavalry? Its their only damage dealing troop after all. Malaya Druzhina still have no lances, Grid Druzhina has lances instead of bows (wich makes sense), but no shields (which makes no sense since they lost bows).

My CB1.3 still looks like it has these problems, so ... bump? Or do I need to get a new one somewhere?

[iceboy]

Maybe there is someone else that is updating CBM? Anyone else out there doing fixes or updates? I would do it myself if I knew what program to use? I tried wordpad but just got jibberish...

[Sombre]

I've fixed this stuff in the CBM that I use (the bogarus cavalry is a case of qm getting the unit numbers confused between the grid and the malai for example) but I don't want to upload it because A) It's easy to fix if you want to and B) I don't want to be uploading alternate versions of CBM that confuse people.

[quantum_mechani]

I'm hoping to get out a new version in the next couple weeks.

[JimMorrison]

I've fixed this stuff in the CBM that I use (the bogarus cavalry is a case of qm getting the unit numbers confused between the grid and the malai for example) but I don't want to upload it because A) It's easy to fix if you want to and B) I don't want to be uploading alternate versions of CBM that confuse people.

Oh come on, who doesn't want to join a game that advertises it is using CBM 1.3.005? :p

Then I can make an alternate version that applies a couple of changes, but leaves yours out..... then we can all have 10-12 versions of it, and not be able to tell any of them apart. :D

[iceboy]

I've fixed this stuff in the CBM that I use (the bogarus cavalry is a case of qm getting the unit numbers confused between the grid and the malai for example) but I don't want to upload it because A) It's easy to fix if you want to and B) I don't want to be uploading alternate versions of CBM that confuse people.

Just out of curiosity what program do you open the file with to fix stuff?

[iceboy]

I'm hoping to get out a new version in the next couple weeks.

Hooray!!! :D

Hey QM are you still planning on updating Worthy Heroes/Burning Heroes as well?

[Endoperez]

Just out of curiosity what program do you open the file with to fix stuff?

The .dm files are normal text files with a different ending. Before editing, make a copy of the original CB file. Changing the mod will only affect your personal copy of it, and if you play in a MP game the server has a different version of the mod, the battle replays won't always match.

To learn what the modding commands do, open modding.pdf from Dominions 3\doc. If you just want to change Bogarus cavalry, you probably won't need anything but the weapon command.

[Sombre]

New jomon summons looked at.


Contact Jigami - N1, RL4 - 1 / 10 vanilla. Castability: Very Easy. A Commander summon. A sacred N2 mage. You have N2 mages already though, basically. Some have suggested summoning him for research, which is boring as hell. The fact he has summer power, sacred and ethereality makes him a little more interesting, as does the 45 supply bonus.

Contact Ujigami - E1S1, RL5 - 1 / 8 vanilla. Castability: Easy. A Commander summon. 40% of your Onmyo-jis can cast this. He goes from H2 to H1 if he leaves his home province, which is balls. However with standard 20 he is actually useful to jomon, who have morale problems caused by missile fire. Being ethereal and with excellent stats (for a size 2) he looks like a great thug, but then you see his enc. 7 with the armour. If they were enc 0 they'd be great.

Contact Mori-no-kami - N3, RL5 - 1 / 21 vanilla. Castability: Average. A Commander summon. You'll probably have to boost up to get this, but N2 mages are available. Inside a forest it's a semi thug with ethereal, enc 1 and N3E1 magic. Outside it shrinks and is N2. That's a pretty nasty restriction really and while the N3 is useful for climbing the nature ladder, this doesn't seem great for the cost. They summon three wolves in combat, which is fun but not important, unless against a random assassin.

Summon Kenzoku - S1E1, RL6 - 1 / 9 vanilla. Castability: Easy. A Commander summon. 40% of your Onmyo-jis can cast this. Their stats are better than those of the Ujigami and they have awe 1 instead of priest levels and a standard. As such they're more thugs than leaders, which is a fun distinction. Again though, they have 7 enc with that armour, so it needs to be replaced, making them less budget. They also cost astral. Reduced enc would be great, as would a drop in research level for the two samurai kami.

Summon Gozu Mezu - D3, RL6 - 2 / 7 vanilla. Castability: Very Hard. Your nationals don't have death. While this is in reach of rainbows and you can bootstrap to D3 from very little, the gems just aren't there. You get two troops; ox-head and horse-face. They have soul catchers, which are nifty polearms that cause false fetters on hit. Basically they're non sacred slightly superior demonic Celestial Soldiers. However being hard as hell to cast, they aren't as good.

Contact Yama-no-kami - E4, RL6 - 1 / 28 vanilla. Castability: Average. A Commander summon. You can boost a Master Shugenja to E4 with relative ease. If the yama leaves the mountains he loses power just like the mori. In mountains these are powerful A2E3N2 badasses with solid stats, regen, ethereality, oh and they're sacred like all kami, so they can certainly thug with some equipment. Good, but again overcosted due to inability to function well outside of their chosen terrain.

[thejeff]

I just had the Jotun Hero multihero show up. Oddly he came with 2 shields and no armor instead of the Golden armor in the description.

It looks like the new items from Worthy Heroes didn't get pulled into CBM, even though heroes using them did.

[Tifone]

Can someone explain me why someone using the Star of Heroes, I'd suppose to hit others, has his armor shattered too?

[llamabeast]

Presumably because it's been given an AOE > 1, leading to it sometimes hitting himself?

[Endoperez]

Pronlem with the Ulmish hero? It's really annoying, especially it will take so long until his armor is fixed, and he usually has Black Knight bodyguards who are also affected.

Few pages back, I suggested giving him Star of Thraldom or Holy Scourge.

[Sombre]

LA BOGARUS

Conjuration

Summon Simargl - A1, RL2 - 1 / 1 Vanilla, 1 / 1 CBM.

Castability: Very Easy. With flight and patrol bonus 10 these things are damn near the perfect patrollers. In fact they're basically Celestial Hounds with all the patrol and little of the combat ability. I personally think they'd be more fun if there were lots of them and they had less patrol bonus.
CBM Suggestion: I think bringing their patrolbonus down to 3 and setting them at 2 / 5 would be a good idea - that way they might also be used in a combat role now and then.

Summon Firebird - F1S1, RL3 - 1 / 2 Vanilla, 1 / 1 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. Nearly as fragile as a random hawk and size 3, but with an 10 ap capped damage fire attack - still don't hit very hard. The problem is they're too expensive and too hard to mass given their ridiculously short life expectancy and fairly weak offense. The concept here is a unit which can harm ethereals/elites and is pretty destructive, like a one-off fire spell.
CBM Suggestion: I think they should be given a medium fireshield and firepower 1 (more thematic than anything). The cost change in CBM isn't really enough to help and I believe with the added abilities they still need to be 5 / 5 or so, as they are so fragile.

Summon Lady Midday - A1D1, RL3 - 1 / 1 Vanilla, 1 / 1 CBM. Castability: Average. One in four Starets can cast this, but they will almost certainly have better things to do. Fear 0, flight, ethereality and a powerful weapon is counterbalanced by subhuman stats. Everything about them screams undead to me, yet they are magic beings. With flying boots you can have a commander lead a squad of them around, but they're very hard to mass. They're sort of like downgraded Morrigans though one use for them might be attacking and diseasing a SC pretender.
CBM Suggestion: I'd like to see them at 5 / 5 or thereabouts.

Contact Sirin - S2, RL3 - 1 / 8 Vanilla, 1 / 6 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. A Commander summon. A straightforward flying seducer. Note that as seducers and not succubi, they need to border your territory which makes them less impressive. They do seem to have decent seduction ability, though they are unlikely to kill anything but the weakest mage if they fail. CBM cost is fine.

Send Vodyanoy - W2, RL4 - 1 / 20 Vanilla, 1 / 20 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Remote Commander summon. None of the recuitable mages can cast this, but it is only W2 and provides a W3N1 mage itself, so it could get cast. It's unusual in that it's an aquatic unit with stealth. W3 is pretty useful but combined with N1,.. CLAMS AHOY! It's a really good summon with two big drawbacks in that it's aquatic only and, for Bogarus, very hard to cast. Cost seems ok therefore.

Summon Rusalka - W1D1, RL4 - 1 / 16 Vanilla, 1 / 6 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Commander summon. Like the Vodyanoy, she can't be cast by recruitables but if you get one, it can summon more. She's another seducer, this time amphibious, which could maybe come in handy. As a mage summon she's W1D1 so doesn't grant any new paths and her ability to lead troops underwater only extends to 5 guys, which is effectively useless. The new CBM price is perfect and they are relatively useful when so cheap.

Contact Alkonost - S2, RL4 - 1 / 15 Vanilla, 1 / 8 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. A Commander summon. You get a H3 flying commander with standard 20, so clearly it's good for supporting mundane troops. Bogarus' regular H3 is rarely built after all. A bargain at the new CBM cost.

Summon Likho - D1, RL4 - 1 / 10 Vanilla, 1 / 2 CBM. Castability: Very Easy. A Commander Summon. They can spam curse on stuff and they're stealthy commanders. But there's nothing to them. Curse is annoying but hardly terrifying. I think they're supposed to be used vs multiple elite units, but even there just cursing stuff isn't very helpful. I would never, EVER pay 10 gems for one. The drastic reduction of price in CBM is spot on.

Summon Zmey - F2, RL5 - 1 / 8 Vanilla, 1 / 4 CBM. Castability: Easy. All Starets can summon these and Alchemists could with a small boost. The fact that these are cold blooded is a bit of a pain, but they are offensively powerful and fairly tough. Like upgraded wyverns. Though they have a breath attack their utility is as melee fliers. The CBM price is great and I'd use them at that.

Send Bukavac - W4, RL5 - 1 / 5 Vanilla, 1 / 5 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Remote Indy Commander summon. Even harder to cast than the Vodyanoy. It vanishes after combat and if it wins leaves the province as an indy territory. The unit itself looks impressive, similar to an asp turtle, but due to low AP it's very slow to trample troops and isn't that hard for a group of them to take down.
CBM Suggestion: I think it should be W3 to summon and perhaps even 1 / 4.

Contact Gamayun - S3, RL5 - 1 / 25 Vanilla, 1 / 20 CBM. Castability: Easy. A Commander summon. You get a S2A2H2 flying commander with fortune teller. As a mage summon the paths aren't helpful, but as a commander it has clear utility and fits a variety of roles. It's one of those jack of all trades mid level commanders like the Kinnara for monkey nations. With 30 magic leadership it can lead your middays and firebirds.

Contact Beregina - W3E1, RL6 - 1 / 35 Vanilla, 1 / 25 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Commander summon. Like the previous two water summons, this requires planning to cast. Unlike it's little sister the Rusalka it isn't a stealthy seducer. Instead it has W3E1N2, so it actually does offer a new path in nature. It's amphibious and can bring 10 people underwater with it,.. the problem is it's hard to cast and in many cases the Vodyanoy is going to be a better bet. CBM price makes it a lot more attractive.

Contact Cloud Vila - A4, RL7 - 1 / 40 vanilla, 1 / 40 CBM. Castability: Hard. A Commander summon. Although Bogarus has A2 mages it has virtually no chance of A3 and air is hard to boost up. Cloud Vilas are A3S1N2 so do offer diversity, though they aren't a great deal for that. They are nice flying mages but aren't thuggable unlike Air Queens. They're more comparable with Faery Queens - they have heal 20 instead of 30 and weaker nature magic. They also don't come with sprites. Overall Faery Queens are better and only one research level higher. Cloud Vilas are slightly easier to cast, but not by much.
CBM Suggestion: I think they should be 1 / 30 to reward actually getting A4 and to elevate this national above the faery queen. They do have seduce but I'm not sure how strong it is.

Contact Mountain Vila - N4, RL7 - 1 / 40 vanilla, 1 / 40 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Commander summon. Bogarus has no nature mages. This summons one of course. Your best bet to getting the nature required is by boosting the N2 Cloud Vila. The problem is the Cloud Vila is also hard to cast. They don't fly, are N3S1A2 and are healer 40, twice as good as Cloud Vilas. One comparison here is with Ivy Kings who also offer N3, worse mages, but tougher and cheaper. Mountain Vilas are fragile like their Cloud sisters and slightly worse battlemages.
CBM Suggestion: Again I think 1 / 30. They offer little in the way of paths, but do have some useful abilities like healer and seduce (depending on how good it is).

Contact Leshiy - N6, RL8 - 1 / 60 vanilla, 1 / 45 CBM. Castability: Very Hard. A Commander summon. If you can get to N4 for the Mountain Vila you can probably stretch to N6 for this. Outside of forests he basically sucks with crappy magic and a lack of brawn. In a forest he's a size 6 monster with N4E2A2W1, full slots, a great deal of brawn, regen - plus he can change into a size 6 trampling super bear. He's definitely cool and a powerful SC chassis, but ONLY in the forest. As a mage summon he nets you no new paths. The CBM price reflects these weaknesses and makes a very cool unit more usable.

[chrispedersen]

I don't know if suggestions for CBM are taken here.. but I'd like to suggest the following:

1. Bump up confusion one level. The number of effects for this spell is simply too high - this spell is devestating.

2. Bump umbral down to 6. For any other race a 7 mght be worth it. However, Agarth is not a major contender, and the nerf is a bit extreme.

3. Light v. darkness. Darkness was 6, Solar Brilliance was 7.

If somoene has't researched the SB tree, they can be hosed by darkness for a Loooooong time.

I don't know if the code monkeys could hack this, but another spell, whose effect was merely to cancel darkness (aka no retina burning) at a lower level, would be welcome.

Make it cost a gem, so people dont just default cast.

[chrispedersen]

Documentation problem:

CBM 1.3 lists Axe of hate as Defense 14.
Its actually damage 14.

Suggestion:

Decrease cost of Acashic Record 5 gems.

[chrispedersen]

Most of the bows ranges and ammo were increased.
Bow of Agonizing Death was not.

[Tifone]

I think Acashic record is balanced as it is personally chris :)

[Sombre]

Wouldn't these comments make more sense in the CBM 1.4 thread?

[llamabeast]

I've never heard of the Bow of Agonizing Death.

[lch]

It's right under the Tome of Uncomfortable Truths.

[Sombre]

I've never heard of the Bow of Agonizing Death.

It's used by the Lord of the Desert Sun. Or the Lord of the Summer Plague, one of his brothers. The lion headed *******s.

[chrispedersen]

Wouldn't these comments make more sense in the CBM 1.4 thread?

Ya know they probably would, had I known such a thread existed =)