Dominions 3000 (name confirmed!)

[Darkwind]

As no one else has made a thread for this here yet, I figured I might as well. I might as well add in a summary of Dominions 3000, too.

Basically, the idea is to create 'Dominions in space'. I suppose you could call it a total conversion. It will likely be one age with maybe ten nations. So far, the people working on this (or saying that we'll work on it) include me, HoneyBadger, and JimMorrison.

And, well, that about wraps it up. There will definitely be numerous problems with actually putting this into action, but that's just part of the fun, isn't it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

EDIT: New members list, may or may not be updated as time goes on:
HoneyBadger (graphics for Ulm in Aezeal's proto-mod, enthusiasm, various nation ideas)
Aezeal (created the proto-mod/trial-version for Dom3K, enthusiasm, lots of work, more enthusiasm)
Nikelaos(?) (creates graphics for Aezeal's prot-mod (?), enthusiasm, active in debate about the mod)
Darkwind (me, mostly brings up questions, occasionally works on Neoclidia, also enthusiastic)

This mod is made out of enthusiasm and duct tape. Quite a sturdy construction don't you think?

EDIT II: As far as I know everyone's okay with Dom3K, including KO (who I just sort of assumed spoke on the behalf of Illwinter I guess so yeah), so the title is hereby changed.

[llamabeast]

Sounds like you have it all planned out nicely http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[HoneyBadger]

I've been thinking about how combat is currently displayed-are we going to include ground combat? or will it all be spaceships?-I'm thinking ground combat would be best, but how to handle space combat and not make it look goofy?

Maybe something Stargate-ish, with few or no actual spaceships. A bit like the old SSI Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday game.

[llamabeast]

You should probably aim to represent ground combat on the surface of a planet. Perhaps the planet is strategically crucial or something. Games like Dawn of War tend to go with that kind of concept.

You could certainly have close combat troops (there are plenty of examples from sci-fi, e.g. Jedis, zerglings, aliens from Alien etc), plus obviously ranged troops. They could be tricky due to the lack of appropriate projectiles. Of course, for real laser weapons no projectile would be visible. Still, it would look strange not having one.

I think this will be hard. Probably you should start with just two races. Maybe something really coolly thematically opposed, a la Terrans/Zerg or Space Marines/Tyranids.

Spells would be interesting. I wonder what they would represent.

[Darkwind]

I was thinking we would represent ground combat. Also, I might as well lay down what I think should be done with ships, also tying in to planets and spells:

I, personally, think that space should have no or few people (due to lack of anywhere to put said people). Thus, planets would contain all (or almost all) of the population. The recruitable ships would likely be small and weak, though they wouldn't cost much. Also recuitable would be commander "orbital building stations", which would have magic. As all (or most) of the spells we currently have will likely be scrapped, the Conjuration line would become a "blueprint" line, which would likely start with a number of blueprints at the beginning.

Builder ships could use gems to create the more powerful ships which couldn't be launched from the planet (and can't enter a planet). There would likely be a spell to summon droves of the recruitable ships, too. I'm thinking that most of the "blueprint" spells will be national, so that both the zergrushkekeke and the size10deathstarfleet races couldn't both summon the same ships. Mercenaries could likely be included as well, as 0-resource units in space with large amounts of upkeep (different from the mercenary bidding used in-game, which would hopefully also be used).

So, for planets, should they all link to other planets (and stars) in the system? Or should one have to conquer a planet from above in order to bring men with them (or use ships that can carry a few men)? Should stars (if included as conquerable) link to all other stars, to only the nearest stars, or be essentially the same as deep space? What will we do about ground-unit commanders and items (I'm thinking we divide slots between ships and ground units, so, say, the ship might get the helmet, boot, and chest slots, but ground commanders get the hand and misc slots)? How will we scale ship power versus human power? Will this wall of text made up solely of questions ever end?

[llamabeast]

So, would the planets be represented by land, and space by water? Then spaceships could be aquatic. The troop carriers could grant "water breathing" to the units they commanded, hence allowing carrying troops through space. However, the troops would then be present in space combats. The only solution I can think of to this would be to have spaceships vastly superior to troops, so that troops fighting in space would be largely irrelevant (as you'd expect if troops were floating around in spacesuits, although that still doesn't explain why they got out of their transports in the first place).

The stats will look very strange on spaceships. Strength and magic resistance at least. Most of the rest are probably okay.

[Endoperez]

Sailing isn't stopped by enemy controlling the water province, is it? I thought about troop carriers "sailing" over space-seas that "aquatic" combat ships control, but I guess that's impossible.

[Darkwind]

llamabeast said:
So, would the planets be represented by land, and space by water? Then spaceships could be aquatic. The troop carriers could grant "water breathing" to the units they commanded, hence allowing carrying troops through space. However, the troops would then be present in space combats. The only solution I can think of to this would be to have spaceships vastly superior to troops, so that troops fighting in space would be largely irrelevant (as you'd expect if troops were floating around in spacesuits, although that still doesn't explain why they got out of their transports in the first place)

That was what I was thinking, that troop carriers would be able to bring units into space. Endoperez's idea could work, as well, since either way the carriers would have to be amphibious, but with sailing the problem of a small army of units leaving the carrier to unload their clips (or lasers) against the vastly superior hulls of the enemy spaceships is avoided. It might not help with cross-system expeditions, though.

[HoneyBadger]

Lazers, realistically speaking, are invisible, so no real worries there.

Maybe space combat, etc. should just be a non-entity for now, as has been suggested. That way, we could still represent worlds that are too hostile to life, to enter without special equipment.

[Aezeal]

hmm troops in space could actially wear spacesuits armoured with heavy weapons (which troops can't carry on land to stay thematically) so they could fire on ships though

--> this would mean most troops would need an other form for when in water though (like oceania mages?): the interesting thing could be that all troops would be similar in space (water) while there could be vastly different in power on the ground.

(though I'd say militia should still be weaker in space than elites.. but the difference could be nice.. attack elite armies in space and not on land if possible so they are relatively weaker.)

you could then also make more space based races (more powerfull spacesuits) and more land based races

Troops in space province could be living in spacestations or something.

[llamabeast]

Oooh! The new patch will include the feature to set water-shapes for units. So you can have space-suited versions of units. For some they might be more powerful, like Aezeal says. For others they might be inactive. Perhaps bio-creatures change into chrysalids/spores in space, so they can't actually fight. Or humans might just be in little shuttle-pods, again unable to effectively fight.

That would be very cool.

[Aezeal]

posts with Like Aezeal says are are good.. listen to them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Darkwind]

Well, I guess we might as well figure out what's going to happen. All of these methods of troop transport through space sound good, really. Which one should we use?

Also, how will we divide work (or will one person basically do everything)? What will we be aiming to do first, second, third, etc.? What should we aim for in the first playable version (the full thing, or the bare bones, or something in between)? Have we even discussed the specifics of most things? Will these questions ever end?!

[Sombre]

If you have any modding questions, just stick them up in the thread and more experienced modders will answer.

[HoneyBadger]

I think the first thing to do would be to brainstorm as many nation ideas as possible, and start narrowing them down.

I also think we should start working on a Damn Big Map, and ideas for how we want it to look, and function.

As far as a working level of playability-Ideally, the nations we come up with ought to be playable against the existing ones. On the same level atleast. No need to re-invent the wheel, we just want to take the wheel into space.

I definitely want to be an active partner in the project, but I'm not going to be the one doing everything, because that's just not realistic of my abilities and time.

[Endoperez]

HoneyBadger said:
As far as a working level of playability-Ideally, the nations we come up with ought to be playable against the existing ones. On the same level atleast. No need to re-invent the wheel, we just want to take the wheel into space.



I don't think that's a good idea before you have any idea of what the nations will be or how they will work. Even if they happen to be somewhat playable, they'd look very silly if the fights were supposed to take place in space or underwater, and then I'd expect abilities such as flight and perhaps resistances and AoE abilities would also be quite common.

[Darkwind]

HoneyBadger said:
I think the first thing to do would be to brainstorm as many nation ideas as possible, and start narrowing them down.

I also think we should start working on a Damn Big Map, and ideas for how we want it to look, and function.

As far as a working level of playability-Ideally, the nations we come up with ought to be playable against the existing ones. On the same level atleast. No need to re-invent the wheel, we just want to take the wheel into space.

I was going to make this huge post detailing specifics for a bunch of different ideas, but then I realized that basically all one needs to do is mix-and-match stereotypes (Technologically advanced lizards! Warlike bugs! Fast-breeding birds! Fish descended from an ancient galaxy-spanning civilization!) in order to produce ideas. Not all of them will be good, but it's just brainstorming.

Also, I doubt the nations for Dom3k will be comparable with normal nations, since some might have incredible ships but horrible land units while some might have an incredible planetary army but practically no space-faring navy. Using the same basic averages (an average unit has 10 attack, 10 defense, 10 defense, etc.) would be a good idea though.

[Aezeal]

I'd like to have an active part in development, idea's for the setting and races, mostly developing a race..

but I can't do graphics but if someone with a gift for graphics would work with me I'd love to do my part

I'm doing my part (starship troopers)

PS for the space transport I really think letting the troops have SOME function would be good.. letting them just sit in space might be getting boring (if for some reason the "much stronger" ships etc would target them first then loosing your ship which is firing on the troops might be cost effective.

[rdonj]

Even if the lasers are going to be invisible, you should consider trying to give them some sort of "hit" art, so you can at least tell what they're pointing at...

[Endoperez]

That's perfectly feasible, because flying and hit animations are independent. There are some missile weapons that work like that, like Starspawn mind burn.

[Darkwind]

I made a chart http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/7575/achartua4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Please excuse the general nastiness, it was made in "Microsoft Spreadsheet" (I thought it was Excel, but I guess not) and then tinkered with in Paint. But anyways, yeah. There are ninety possible options (9*10), which is more than we need. Also, since this chart definitely doesn't have every good idea for a nation on it, I encourage not using it. It doesn't even have a "zerg-like" or "enslaves other species" option. In fact, it doesn't have a lot of things.

But anyways, I'm going to go pop this open in paint and see if I can find any good ideas in this mess of fish that live underground and cold-blooded lizards that live in a perpetual tundra.

[HoneyBadger]

Don't forget: Energy based creatures, fungi (from Yuggoth or otherwise), molluscs/cephalopods, copper-based critters, parasites/symbiotes/multiorganisms, trichordates, artificial life, Incertae Seris, and Bizarre/Extra-dimensional/Other. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[Darkwind]

HoneyBadger said:
Don't forget: Energy based creatures, fungi (from Yuggoth or otherwise), molluscs/cephalopods, copper-based critters, parasites/symbiotes/multiorganisms, trichordates, artificial life, Incertae Seris, and Bizarre/Extra-dimensional/Other. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Like I said, this chart doesn't cover anywhere near every possible awesome idea. Though it has given me a few good ones http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

When I think I have some really awesome ideas to pitch, I'll be back (also it's late at night and I have summerwork to do still). In the meantime, feel free to throw in any awesome ideas you (and by you I mean everyone not just you, HB) can come up with. Do you think your crazed mutant cyborg killer plant-people from a world that alternates between 2500 and 10 degrees Kelvin can make the cut? Why not tell everyone about them!

[HoneyBadger]

I think I'm going to base the nations I come up with on early (1850's through the 1950s, roughly) sci fi, and make a push that atleast more of the "core" nations follow that trend-this is in keeping with the idea of extending Dominions in to a fictional "future" that is also based on our real world (in this case sci-fi, as opposed to fantasy) "mythology".

If that makes any sense?

Not that I want things to be limited, but that ideas spread out from the golden era of sci fi, hopefully in a way that-again like Dom3-entertains, but also seeks to educate a bit.

[Endoperez]

From mechanical standpoint, what about making MA Ulm, in space!, that actually works?

Very cheap basic units and ships with high resource cost. Low base stats. Very good special abilities (protection, magic resistance, magitech can help in important resistance and encumberance problems). Elite units are very expensive but have good stats/weapons in addition to sharing the abilities of base units.

Could be base human race, or telekinetic space pineapples in mechanical bodies, or something else.

[llamabeast]

I strongly suggest starting with just 2 races, or even just 1. That can be the prototype, which gets all the basic ideas worked out. (You can have two copies of that race, so that test games would be possible.)

A good one to start with might be Humans/Terrans. You know, marines, maybe some mechs/tanks, and reasonably non-weird spaceships.

[Darkwind]

HoneyBadger said:
I think I'm going to base the nations I come up with on early (1850's through the 1950s, roughly) sci fi, and make a push that atleast more of the "core" nations follow that trend-this is in keeping with the idea of extending Dominions in to a fictional "future" that is also based on our real world (in this case sci-fi, as opposed to fantasy) "mythology".

If that makes any sense?

Not that I want things to be limited, but that ideas spread out from the golden era of sci fi, hopefully in a way that-again like Dom3-entertains, but also seeks to educate a bit.

I can't really help much there, then. All I can say is that apparently, H.G. Wells has written books featuring Grey-like beings. What, did you really think you'd get away without including the Greys? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Also, is it just me, or has JimMorrison not replied to this thread yet?


A good one to start with might be Humans/Terrans. You know, marines, maybe some mechs/tanks, and reasonably non-weird spaceships.

Not including humans would be like a map of the world that left out Canada.

Alright, so that might have been a bad analogy. But the point remains, why would we leave out humans? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[llamabeast]

why wouldn't we leave out humans



Er, what does that mean?

[rdonj]

Flying telekenetic squid-creatures! They can octuple wield!

Creatures with eyes on their arms so they can fire from behind cover without exposing vital parts of their anatomy!

As a thought, one of the things you could use magic for could be ship functions. For example, you might need to use a spell to fire missiles, and that takes a gem. Then you have to cast another spell using a different kind of gem so you can fire missiles again (in this example firing a missiles causes huge amounts of fatigue).

[Darkwind]

llamabeast said:

why wouldn't we leave out humans



Er, what does that mean?

It means I need to double check before I post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Aezeal]

OK I need someone to volunteer to do graphs and I'll create a race!

I agree with llama, start with 2 races THEN get more..

so we'll need someone else to make the other race http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[llamabeast]

What race are you thinking of making?

You could try using Starcraft sprites. They're probably about the right size.

[HoneyBadger]

I can get started on graphs. Give me a list of what we need, and don't expect art http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Aezeal]

using starcraft sprites is probably illegal (copyrights?) so I doubt it's a good thing you are advertising it.

How ever if it's NOT illegal then it should be done ASAP http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Which race.. well I think starting with something basic would be best: humans, easier on the graphs too.

PS I think rhyeley should used in the near future too.. but they are a bit different so not best used as one fo the first (balance thingie)

[Darkwind]

Aezeal said:
using starcraft sprites is probably illegal (copyrights?) so I doubt it's a good thing you are advertising it.

How ever if it's NOT illegal then it should be done ASAP http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Which race.. well I think starting with something basic would be best: humans, easier on the graphs too.

PS I think rhyeley should used in the near future too.. but they are a bit different so not best used as one fo the first (balance thingie)

Actually, using the Cthulhu Mythos could be an interesting idea. Though none of it is really science fiction, the Mythos does feature several star-spanning empires, not to mention the Great Old Ones (the Mythos gods, who are numerous (for gods), mind-shattering, and powerful). A race of Deep Ones, or Elder Things, or Yithians, or perhaps flying polyps, or who knows all of them combined in some terrible orgy of madness, non-Euclidian geometry, and insignificantness.

Now I really want to do this.

[Aezeal]

Setting: dominions in space
general assumptions (which could of course be changed if pplz disagree) I've made
- words water and space are equal
- more ranged combat
- generally longer ranges for ranged combat
- armour more like LA
- more AP damage
- troops have a waterform in space
- large spaceships (water only)
- shuttles (amphibious)
- pplz in space live in space on space stations (some aliens might not but whatever)
- more water provs relatively low pop but doesn't HAVE to be
- more mines in space (meteorfield with nice resources ( this is used a lot in game.. even though I think planets would be much more resourcefull.. but it's better for balance I think to use it too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif)
- maps: clusters of planets around a sun (say 5) which ALL have land move options between them between those clusters only space, no land travel options to next star system

Humans/Ulm in space: (a more catchy name: "space marines" 'n stuff will follow): I'm thinkin on moddeling it a bit (no correct that: the basis will be A LOT based on WH40K)

Weak statted ground troops but with decent tech level for their guns (in space h2h will have to be lower on the priority list)

basic human militia:
7 gc, 1 resc (extra cheap due to no watershape)
hp 10
prot 0
morale 8
mr 10
enc 3
str 10
att 8
def 8
prec 10
map 1
AP 10

weapon: pistol (or laspistol) damage 10 AP (strength doesn't count), range 50, 2 resc
basic armour (prot 5, 2 resc
basic shield (prot 10, 1 resc)
basic helmet (prot 5, 1 resc)

no watershape
------------------------------

marine (light inf/soldier)
10 gc, 1 resc
hp 10
prot 0
morale 10
mr 10
enc 3
str 10
att 10
def 10
prec 11
map 1
AP 10

weapon: lasgun damage 15 AP (strength doesn't count), range 60 (resc 3)
medium armour (prot 10 resc 2)
basic shield (prot 10 resc 1)
medium helmet (prot 10 resc 2)

watershape

same stats
same armour
different gun
Heavy gun 20 AP damage, range 60

--------------------------------

heavy marine (elite heavy veteran soldier)
hp 11
prot 0
morale 11
mr 10
enc 3
str 11
att 12
def 12
prec 11
map 1
AP 10

weapon: lasgun damage 15 AP (strength doesn't count), range 60 (resc 4)
heavy armour (prot 15, resc 3)
heavy shield (prot 15, resc 2)
tactical helmet (prot 10 + 1 precision, resc 3)

watershape

same stats
same armour
different gun:
Heavy gun 20 AP damage, range 60
--------------------------------------------

So hows that to start with?
so pics needed for this are

3x armoured human troops with increasingly heavy gear
2x space suit armoured with heavy weapons but one heavier than the other.

PS Which numbers should I use for weapons and troops with I make my dm file?

Also we need someone who will start making a map if noone volunteers I'll make a REAL nasty looking 2 player map with 3 star systems of 7 planets and between that loads of space (a very very black map that will be)

[llamabeast]

Yeah, using Starcraft sprites is probably illegal, but frankly I hardly think Blizzard are going to care. If anything we'd be creating advertising for Starcraft 2. More importantly if they cracked down on the mod, we'd just be back where we started (with no graphics). So I suggest using them, at least as standins. Because if you do, you'll have a working mod in minutes. If you don't, I think it's possible you're going to have problems getting graphics together.

[Darkwind]

Aezeal said:
Also we need someone who will start making a map if noone volunteers I'll make a REAL nasty looking 2 player map with 3 star systems of 7 planets and between that loads of space (a very very black map that will be)

I might be able to make one using a map editor for another game (hey, people have done it before, why not?) I have no idea how I'd make stars though, or whether we'd want realistic star sizes or star sizes roughly equal with planets (for easier viewing). Keep in mind this would only be an image, though I could try my hand at making the map proper too.

[llamabeast]

I should probably exclude the star. If you have a star you need crazy distances and scales. Why not just have a planet with several moons. Or, say, a pair of planets orbiting each other, with lots of moons of various sizes.

[Darkwind]

llamabeast said:
I should probably exclude the star. If you have a star you need crazy distances and scales. Why not just have a planet with several moons. Or, say, a pair of planets orbiting each other, with lots of moons of various sizes.

That's a good idea too, though I envisioned a map with several solar systems and planets consisting of multiple provinces (4-5, maybe). A few really big planets (comparatively) and some smaller (but still comparatively large) moons could work too.

[HoneyBadger]

I think that-generally-maps should consist of a single province (representing inner planets) surrounded by other provinces (outer planets), and then maybe some outside of that, representing asteroid fields. "Sailing" would equate hyperspace capability, while other ships would have to go through normal deep space (where there could be lots of different space monsters)

[Aezeal]

personally I'd say use circles of about equal size, sun 2x as large as planets.

I think sailing isn't all that it's space and there is flight which we can give any range.. should be enough.

If specific maps would need hyperspace lanes or anything it can be modded by making 2 provs far apart neighbouring

It probably doesn't really matter though most maps would work though for balance there should be a difference for who can travel where.

[JimMorrison]

Well! Thanks Darkwind for remembering how interested I was in seeing this project happen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

But you know what I always say - The later you are getting to the party, the drunker the girls are! Wait, that has no relevance here..... Regardless, it's sound wisdom to help you in life! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif


Okay, before I do a brief outline of all of the ideas that I had knocking around in my head (many of which I touched on in the original thread), I just have to say, R'lyeh is IN! The more of this thread I read, the more shocked I was at their lack of mention, until it finally happened and I cried out in pure joy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif They're Illithid Starspawns - the perennial space aliens of Dominions, excluding them would be a terrible travesty!

Beyond that, I see no reason we can't draw a lot of inspiration from popular fiction, so that the majority of the tough mental work can go towards making the mod WORK. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif For example Predators (per the movies), Klingons (duh), Kilrathi (Wing Commander), Protoss/Eldar (you seriously believe Protoss weren't already ripped off from 40K? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif), and the various and sundry races from games like MoO, Ascendancy, and Galactic Civ should give plenty of templates that can be made as similar or as generic as we want them to be. Also, it could be very cool to have 2 human factions, one based off of the "Evil Empire" of the Star Wars universe, while another is perhaps based off of the more Earth based human culture from Starship Troopers.


Okay, first I am going to skim through the thread again, and pick out people's ideas so I don't look like a vulture, even though many of these seem to be in posts by a guy named JimMorrison in the other thread. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

-Ground + Space battles. Planets should be in clusters of 3-4 to make "castles" (Starports?) viable. Deep space represented by Water provinces. In lieu of "water shape" (which could be incredibly awesome) then transports would have Sailing, and "Capital Ships" would be Amphib.

-Ranged Weapons: Easy enough for energy weapons to either have no graphic, or for fun use Lightning animations, or we can dig around and find existing graphics work nicely for different weapons. From a basic sense, javelins for missiles, and sling stones for mass drivers. Getting deeper we have interesting things like ice bolts for a Liquid Nitrogen Cannon, or Astral Geyser graphic to portray an orbital bombardment (think Hammer of Dawn, from Gears of War).

-Touching on Ground Combat again - I don't think ranges should be increased too much, unless movement is also increased. Else it will render close combat irrelevant, and I do like the idea of jedis and zerg-esque beasties. However it begs the question - if capital ships take part in ground battles, how do we explain a jedi running up to one and hacking away? Starships should in general have very high base protection, so ground forces must be really massed to take them down. Likewise, we should be very careful about true AOE effects. Starships alone should be poor against ground troops - by making it work both ways, you maintain relevance of combined forces, and create a need for "ground assaults" to actually take place.

-Planetary Invasion: Another thought, is if we issue Water Shapes to all the ground forces, perhaps "systems" (clusters of 3-4 usable planets) should have a province around them all, that is some sort of "extra-solar space" to keep assault forces from dropping onto the planets from out of nowhere. Space is big, it makes a bit of sense to slow down the movement of forces, making military action very strategic and deliberate.

-Regarding Stats: Stats and Gems are the only things I can think of that can't be renamed. They will require a suspension of disbelief I suppose. Although if most weapons are "Strength of Wielder Not Added", then it makes little difference, other than for the special ground melee units, and also for calculating sieging values. Gems are trickier, we can call them whatever we want to, but I believe we're not getting new names in game - so we have to pretend that our pretend gems are something else. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

-Touching on Badger's idea of races from the golden age of sci-fi: Have at it! While I suggested that we draw many off of what is easiest (the faster we develop races, the more we can include!), if something piques anyone's interest, they should run with it. I mean, if someone wanted to do every single species in Star Wars - have fun with that, I bet you could bang them out really fast. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

-Expanding on Ground/Space combat - Starships would tend to have multiple weapons systems, and should have massive HP, and enormous firepower. In ground assaults, they can only clear 1 square at a time even at range, right? So they are balanced to be quick and dirty in ship vs ship combat, and to not be overpowering in ground combat. Most ground units should have AP weapons, and some elite units should get weapons that do 1AN damage - plasma streamers or something designed to cut through heavy armor and shoot down invading ships.

-Is there a way to make units that expend themselves on activating a certain weapon? It would be nice to be able to make some sort of WMDs, but mostly only if they are one shot use, ie you use 30 "fire gems" (wink wink) to make some sort of missile, you launch it, it blows stuff up, it's gone. I suppose that could be done with "ritual spells" still, sci-fi versions of Fires From Afar and whatnot.

-Remember, what the graphics on the map actually look like, doesn't have to have direct bearing on what is defined as a "province". Some races may even start on some enormous gas giant, or on multiple moons of that giant. The star in each system doesn't have to play any significant role - it certainly doesn't need its own province, in terms of game mechanics, it's a colorful ball of light on the map, nothing more. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

-Species specific worlds - We can make the sites in certain species' homes radiate cold or heat. "Dominion" itself shouldn't play as large a part in this. In fact, if we could alter the relative bonus/malus of shifting your temp scale to make it unattractive, then we might avoid the possibility of someone making your planet cold, from 20 light years away, "on accident". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Also each planet in a world would have several factors explored as far as resources (resources!), habitability (pop), and prevailing conditions (temp altering sites).

-Dominion spread will be a definite issue of some kind. In large part, due to the ridiculous idea of spreading cold or heat "through the galaxy", but also with the encapsulation of territory, dominion spread could create significant imbalances in short order. My best idea would be to make everyone act like Mictlan, with no Preaching, and Temples not providing checks. It needs to be engineered in a way that keeps people from being dominion killed through random events - I'm looking for ideas on how to make this work. <3

-Summoned/Built ships - Forgot to mention how much I like this idea. I think perhaps "items" should have a less significant role in the game, and "summons" play an even greater role. It would be nice if most of the more interesting units are not built with generic "resources" (though there will always be the dichotomy of the average infantry lifespan of 9 seconds, with the acknowledged impossibility of holding a planet without infantry!). So the challenge is to produce a dynamic where you need cheap castle chaff, but you also need to develop your summons, and really push your gem income.

-Gem income! That brings to another point, it might be a good idea to do away with single path searching spells, since this is high-tech territory. Providing an easily researched analogue of Acashic Record would insure that everyone has the ability to "Deep Scan" their available worlds early on. After the initial casts, you'd know all territory that you capture would be scanned already as well. Alternatively, since designing massive numbers of sites might become tedious and obnoxious, they could be simplified a great deal, and all of them placed at lvl 0 so they appear automatically - on the assumption that these space-faring civilizations understand how to look for needed resources.




I'll think of more later. Can someone point me to a good sprite editor? I have 0 modding experience..... So while I think I can do a good job with logistics/mechanics, I will need to inspire myself, and I thought graphics would be a great way! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Then perhaps if someone with a little patience wants to set me to task making sites or something, I'm good with that.

Oh, does anyone want to volunteer to throw together a test map graphic? Would be small, can use cheapo copy/paste images of our own planets, and doesn't need a .map file, just the image that can be tinkered with from there.

[JimMorrison]

Aezeal said:
personally I'd say use circles of about equal size, sun 2x as large as planets.



Worrying about graphical scale seems silly to me. In relative terms, all of these systems would be just dots on the map, unless the image were 1,000,000,000,000,000 x 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 pixels large. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif So just place some planets so that they look nice, and put a colorful ball in the center. The ball can be really tiny. Like a golf ball for the star, and bowling balls for the planets. Usability of the map is much more important than graphical accuracy.


Oh and touching on Badger's last comment, I kind of like the idea of ships using hyperspace, and others having to slog through the deeps. Building on that, here's a sad alphanumerical representation of 2 neighboring systems, and how territories could be laid out-

ssssss
soooos
soppos
soppos
soooos
ssssss
soooos
soppos
soppos
soooos
ssssss

s = Deep Space
o = Outer System Space, each ring of o's represents a single "province" surrounding the system
p = Planetary Body, can be anything considered habitable/usable with sufficient technology

Warp Lanes would be reached via Outer System Space, they wouldn't lead directly from Planetary Body to Planetary Body, as you need to escape the gravity well first, and you can't just sail into all those objects, you need to slow down as you approach, and then enter the system.

Also note each s there isn't an individual Space/Sea territory, I'd imagine they would be somewhat largish, but proportions can be decided after there is a working test map drawn, that can be played with as far as movement rates go.

[Aezeal]

hahahaha my first silly space map pic

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/uploads/630972-spacemapsmall.gif

I think the general idea is nice though all planets in a cluster are able to land travel to eachother and the space in the oval is sea prov, space outside that is deepsea and has not land travels between the systems. The 2 larger systems would be start sites and the brown stuff between them are astroids (barrier) so they can't rush to speedy

PS it's wrap-around, and is 2x as large in each dimension (till 5th) really as I have it now

[Aezeal]

it's ugly and bad looking but I wanted it here so when I read here and think I have some sort of idea what each troop could do where n stuff

PS I would be a lot in favor of starting with 2 races with each their own "niche" but with mechanisms that are used by all races (so no LA ermor or rhyley races which are just wacky and very different, start normal end wacky)

my 2 suggestions would be
human: weakish stats but nice weapons: in space they can even carry BIGGER weapons. Not much H2H options since they are weak

orkish/brutes/GIANTS (yes that should be it a GIANT space race... miniature giant space hamsters and a barbarian... wait I'm rambling.. just giants)
So Giants (maybe agartha is nice to go into space first --> space cyclops anyone?) who obviously are nice to do h2h (the WH40K chainsaws are always nice.. some human h2h specialists could get them too) so all of them have a h2h weapon and some gun.. they are lower tech so not so a bit less range and less damage. Their waterform would just be equal to what it was before.

In spaceships hummies would have just a bit better ships

later tanks could follow (not for the giants or agartha or whatever they'd just have some huge giant carrying an even huger missile weapon)

anyone interested in taking Agartha into space?

[JimMorrison]

Aezeal said:
orkish/brutes/GIANTS (yes that should be it a GIANT space race... miniature giant space hamsters and a barbarian... wait I'm rambling.. just giants)



OMG I think I may be inspired to build a Zentraedi inspired species for this.

Then an Invid after that - so sweet.

Any objections to one of the "gems" being referred to as Protoculture? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif


(Edit: forgot comments about the map!)

Two things about the map..... I assume that the red is province borders? I'm thinking there don't need to be so many Deep Space provinces, it could make slogging through Deep Space into something that is avoided at all costs, rather than being used to good strategic effect at all times.

Also I don't think it's a good idea to seal up each planet inside of Inner Space territories like that. It will complicate the consolidation and deployment of resources in the system - and simulates a ridiculously ponderous battle for any given system. I mean, maybe ponderous won't seem ridiculous when it comes down to it, just saying first impression is that it detrimental to not have Planet provinces bordering eachother within the system.

Otherwise I like it as a first go at illustrating what a map would look like. Good basic layout, just not sure on the province borders just yet. Maybe I should bust out the old PhotoShop7 and see what I can come up with. If I can just find the disc.....

[rdonj]

One comment about your earlier stats aezeal... you gave elite infantry better melee abilities without better precision, and they didn't even have melee weapons. I think skill in this is largely going to be represented by precision. Also the armor stats seemed far too weak, as basically if anyone ever got shot they would die. I also think that precision should be higher in general for the mod than basegame as it is a lot easier to shoot something with a gun than with a bow.

[Darkwind]

JimMorrison said:Okay, before I do a brief outline of all of the ideas that I had knocking around in my head (many of which I touched on in the original thread), I just have to say, R'lyeh is IN! The more of this thread I read, the more shocked I was at their lack of mention, until it finally happened and I cried out in pure joy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif They're Illithid Starspawns - the perennial space aliens of Dominions, excluding them would be a terrible travesty!

Can I assume this means that I can go ahead with my terrible orgy of madness and non-Euclidian geometry? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif


and the various and sundry races from games like MoO, Ascendancy, and Galactic Civ should give plenty of templates that can be made as similar or as generic as we want them to be.

I'm surprised someone else here as heard of Ascendancy. I think it's a great game, and I was thinking we might want to borrow some of the concepts there.


-Species specific worlds - We can make the sites in certain species' homes radiate cold or heat. "Dominion" itself shouldn't play as large a part in this. In fact, if we could alter the relative bonus/malus of shifting your temp scale to make it unattractive, then we might avoid the possibility of someone making your planet cold, from 20 light years away, "on accident". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Also each planet in a world would have several factors explored as far as resources (resources!), habitability (pop), and prevailing conditions (temp altering sites).

-Dominion spread will be a definite issue of some kind. In large part, due to the ridiculous idea of spreading cold or heat "through the galaxy", but also with the encapsulation of territory, dominion spread could create significant imbalances in short order. My best idea would be to make everyone act like Mictlan, with no Preaching, and Temples not providing checks. It needs to be engineered in a way that keeps people from being dominion killed through random events - I'm looking for ideas on how to make this work. <3


If we can remove random events, one solution would be to just remove Dominion-altering events that would prevent dominion kill. As to making sure that people don't change the temperature of empty space or other planets simply by wishing it to be so, we could force nations to have a specific pretender setup and have national sites (or preset sites, in the case of non-homeworld worlds) alter the heat/cold scales of the world (I think I'm leaning more towards one-province worlds now, for easier site-setting time and to allow a greater diversity of worlds).

-Summoned/Built ships - Forgot to mention how much I like this idea. I think perhaps "items" should have a less significant role in the game, and "summons" play an even greater role. It would be nice if most of the more interesting units are not built with generic "resources" (though there will always be the dichotomy of the average infantry lifespan of 9 seconds, with the acknowledged impossibility of holding a planet without infantry!). So the challenge is to produce a dynamic where you need cheap castle chaff, but you also need to develop your summons, and really push your gem income.

I'm glad you liked my idea (or was that one of the ideas also posited by this JimMorrison fellow? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ). What I was thinking was that the stronger, more cost-efficient ships would only be able to be accessed through summoning (and the strongest of ships would be unable to enter land, meaning that a fleet of smaller ships would be necessary to guard the space-worthy landlubbers as they fly through space to take enemy planets). Thus, someone relying only on recruitable ships would likely be very weak compared to someone using summoned ships as well (or summoned ships only, for that matter).

Also, please excuse me for ignoring most of your post. That's a big post and I don't want this to devolve into huge posts quoting posts that quote posts which quote multiple posts all quoting one giant post.

[Aezeal]

I'm thinking all races should get a certain earthgem income and some lvl 0 starting summons for ships summonable. Each race could then also get race specific summons.

Maybe a few recruitables too?

Jim.. I specifically said all planets in a system would need to be neighbours too.

[llamabeast]

Really like your map Aezeal.

I wonder if it might work to have a couple of provinces per planet (even several on the larger planets), and have inter-planet transport only possible by using spaceships. Within a solar system, nearby planets might only be separated by one space province, so they could use short-range transports with sailing to get them between worlds. Between solar systems, long-range transports would be needed. These would be amphibious vehicles which granted water-breathing to the units they led.

I wonder if it might be best to exclude spaceships from ground combats? Or rather make them ineffective. They could have landshapes which represent them landed on the planet's surface. They would be unable to fight, or at least unable to move. Capital ships might even be aquatic, and hence unable to enter a land province at all.

[Aezeal]

Well my idea was to make large spaceships aquatic llama http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif as I already said above
and maybe some shuttles amphibious

ps watershape isn't in effect yet or is it?

[Aezeal]

PS llama your idea for sailing and solar systems is nice too.. but a few solar systems would make for HUGE maps (each solar system a few planets of a few provinces)

Since at start there will be only a few races I wanted to make a small map (mine is to large already)

PPS you can't really like the map.. it was 15 min work and it's ugly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

PPS see my new thread for ULM IN SPACE.. (with references to dominions 3 ulm.

[HoneyBadger]

Your map might be a little unrefined, Aezeal, but it's exactly what I had in mind, and I think it's perfect, so 15 mins well spent!

[Aezeal]

but is watershape in effect already?

[Darkwind]

Actually, I just finished making a map (I figured I'd see if everyone liked Aezeal's style better or the test map I made). It's small (25 provinces, 16 of which are space, the way I made it) but it will hopefully do. Attached is the map un-bordered. Also, keep in mind this is just an image, I haven't turned it into an actual map.

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/5627/mapprovincesrq5.jpg
I forgot to mention, made with the Warcraft III Map Editor.

[Aezeal]

PS anyone wanting to refine my map (since it's unrefined) should do so ASAP http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

and then volunteer to do graphs on Ulm in space

[Aezeal]

PS what is the idea for magic.. we can't delete magic spells can't we? so there'd always remain a load of spells not fitting the theme.

/me casts barkskin on his spacesuit

[HoneyBadger]

Clarketech? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[JimMorrison]

llamabeast said:
Really like your map Aezeal.

I wonder if it might work to have a couple of provinces per planet (even several on the larger planets), and have inter-planet transport only possible by using spaceships. Within a solar system, nearby planets might only be separated by one space province, so they could use short-range transports with sailing to get them between worlds. Between solar systems, long-range transports would be needed. These would be amphibious vehicles which granted water-breathing to the units they led.

I wonder if it might be best to exclude spaceships from ground combats? Or rather make them ineffective. They could have landshapes which represent them landed on the planet's surface. They would be unable to fight, or at least unable to move. Capital ships might even be aquatic, and hence unable to enter a land province at all.




Wow, open up a can of worms, toss it in a barrel of monkeys, and look out? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif I can see where you're going with your ideas here, but it just seems awfully complicated to actually implement? I mean spaceships that can't approach planets, troops that can enter space, systems that take several months for species with FTL drives to cross.

I think my main problem with all of this, is that in our near future we will be branching out into our solar system - and all of the resources that we collect will be funneled to this Earth. With this complicated setup you describe of space between planets, and having to cross that space rather than hop planet to planet, implies to me the planets cannot be connected provinces. That sort of implies most objects would be similar, so it would seem out of place to have a planet "connected" to an asteroid field for example. THis all makes movement, "fort" building, and planetary production a bit cumbersome. At least in my eyes - maybe you have that all worked out, but I'm not seeing the reasoning extrapolate out yet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif


Darkwind, you may be on to something. I am unclear about the moddability of Events, I hope someone can set us straight on this point. And I do agree, the easiest way to handle temp preferences is to enforce some sort of rule about keeping the scale neutral. BUT, that means if someone is set to like Heat+3, they lose 120 design points over this. I suppose this could be offset by buffing the pretender options for the species that have temp preferences. That could be a huge balancing-juggling act to make workable though.


Making some ships purely Aquatic is an interesting choice. Perhaps have an analogue to Pendant of the Fish, some sort of Subspace Field Stabilizer, or N-Point Generator that allows them to enter the gravity wells of planets. Working with the terrestrial/amphib/aquatic constraints does give some interesting possibilities for unit specialization. It also makes it more feasible (and possibly necessary) to draw up the systems like you already did, Aezeal.

Some ships could even be PAmph. Landing Craft for example that are intended to provide support fire during ground assaults, or smaller Destroyers who are weaker in planetary battles, but more capable in open space. Can the actual effects of PAmph be modded? Since Attack/Defense will play a lesser role. Or if we do get access to ground forms and water forms, some weapons would only be usable atmospherically, and some only available out in space.



I think the toughest part will be figuring out what to do with all of these mechanics. Once they're worked out, we can burn out content like crazy.


And Aezeal, while I think "Ulm in Space" (makes me hear the announcer from Sesame Street saying 'Pigs in Space' for some reason) is a good workable plan, I don't really think it's any more original to base a D3K species off of a Dom3 nation, than to base it off anything else someone might grab. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

But wait, it gets better! Might I offer the catchy name and concept..... "The Brotherhood of Steel" ?! I hope the beauty and grace of that particularly unoriginal concept keeps you awake tonight. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[JimMorrison]

This whole thread is going to keep ME up at night! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

I am positive you can delete spells, as you can totally change them around. The KingMaker makes good examples of this - and I am reasonably sure we can just delete the entire spellbook and start over if we wish (sadly, it would probably be best).

Watershape is in the next patch. We might actually see that patch sooner than later, if someone can get KO's attention to this thread, and he is in any way excited to see this project get rolling (who could resist this?!). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif


A note about terrain types, since it will be very important as far as the design of sites, and possibly some other effects -

Deep Water - Deep Space
Shallow Water - Near Space / Solar Space
Mountains - Asteroids / Dead Planets
Forests - Habitable Planets (Earth)
Grassland - Habitable Planets (Fully Terraformed Mars)
Swamps - Marginal Planetary Bodies (Partially Terraformed Mars)
Waste - Hostile Planetary Bodies (Venus, Jupiter)


I think because of how we need to think about distribution of terrain, that multi-province planets will be complicated. They'll be greatly restricted in terrain. I was sort of hoping that sites for Mountain/Swamp/Waste could be significantly different than those you would expect to find on an inhabited world. For example, a specific type of "Space Pirate Den" or something, that would only be found in Asteroid Belts, and never on an inhabited planet.

I'm starting to think that "Magic", the Sites and Spells, are going to take a massive amount of time and effort, and I'm thinking it's where I'm going to volunteer to start learning the modding commands, and how to build up these libraries.


I agree that everyone should get easy access to one type of gem, Earth is fine, it can represent Titanium or something, a somewhat common ore needed for starship hulls (and armored vehicles of all kinds). Each species of course would have a bit of a predilection towards one more more other types - say they have enormous Diamond deposits or something, so they get 5 Air/turn at their home, and a lot of Air summons.

I'll do some brainstorming after I grab some food, and see if I can come up with a preliminary list of actual gem types for discussion.

[Darkwind]

JimMorrison said:
Deep Water - Deep Space
Shallow Water - Near Space / Solar Space
Mountains - Asteroids / Dead Planets
Forests - Habitable Planets (Earth)
Grassland - Habitable Planets (Fully Terraformed Mars)
Swamps - Marginal Planetary Bodies (Partially Terraformed Mars)
Waste - Hostile Planetary Bodies (Venus, Jupiter)


It seems unanimous that one-province planets are the way to go. I still don't know whether I should put up my map-designer hat (metaphorically speaking of course, I don't have one) or continue with the map-making.

Also, can I reserve S gems? I'm planning on using them in Noneuclidia (my Lovecraft nation which I'm currently making) for awakening the Great Old Ones (and Old Ones, and Lesser Old Ones...). I haven't the faintest idea what to call them though.

[JimMorrison]

Boson Matrices http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

I don't know, but it sounds awesome. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif


And no reason to stop thinking about map ideas, there could be blitz maps that are essentially fought entirely within 1 system, could be a lot of fun actually.

Just plan on the actual terrain types of a multi-province planet (just use default 'no' terrain) would be determined through the use of sites.

[Darkwind]

Quick question:

What should we do with the Horrors? Remove them or turn them into something new (I hear Lovecraft has some pretty horrific gods, if you know what I mean)?

Edit: I'm going to sleep now, but here's what I have of Noneuclidia. Just in time, too, I think I'm pretty much finished with the Yithians.

Also, Honeybadger, could you give me some sprites for these guys?

[JimMorrison]

Hey are you married to that name? Neuclidia, or Neoclidia could be fun. Just a thought. <3

Horrors..... Aliens? Facehuggers and Chest-Bursters, oh my! They ARE pretty horrible. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif But I can't see any existing mechanic that could be made to work, other than maybe Horror Seed, that would be hilarious.

[HoneyBadger]

What kind of sprites do you need? I can't download anything, just put a list on this thread as a reply.

[llamabeast]

I guess my suggestions for making it relatively hard to travel in space are only reasonably if there are several provinces per planet. Then you have battles for the surface of each planet before entering the transports and moving on to the next. Space blockades would be strategically crucial.

If you only want one province per planet, you'll want to make it easy to move between them, otherwise it'd be cumbersome as you say. Seems a pity to me, to lose out on the option of orbital blockades, but I guess there are pros and cons.

[JimMorrison]

Well, there is definitely something to said for some sort of space trench wars. Looking at this as basically an entirely new game, some space games go quick and dirty for conquest, some make it a very painstaking affair.

There certainly could be multiple province planets, as I said terrain could be in some way defined by magic sites, which unfortunately would have to be manually assigned to get the right flavor. Of course, everything but the inhabited planets could be left to chance, but if a planet is defined by terrain, and terrain is defined by sites, then each map will need to be modded with that in mind.

I do appreciate your input very much Llama, and I think that ultimately the mechanics can work out to allow both schemes, for different styles and scales of maps. It comes down more to a matter of which direction is easiest to initially develop, so we can get a working model off the ground.

[llamabeast]

Realistically I'm not going to put any real work into this mod, so I absolutely don't mind whether you guys go with any ideas I have or not. Just thought I would splurge my thoughts!

What do you mean by having terrain defined by magic sites? Why not have it determined by terrain?

[Aezeal]

I think orbital blockades might be a bad idea because if you made a race stronger in space (which seems logical) it would be very easy for them to blockade the enemy.

Then again.. you could do all things really. I don't think it's worth fussing about.. one map could have planets all inside their own space province with no land contact.. others would have nearby planets connected... or a mix of both in the same map.

Not worth fussing about now.

[llamabeast]

Sounds like a good plan Aezeal.

[Aezeal]

ehm I was thinking about giving all Ulmish troops the same waterform (once active) but that can't work right? since then they can't transfor back to all their different froms on land? So if I wanted all troops to have the same spacesuit.. I'd need to make a form (nearly similar) for EACH troop?

[Aezeal]

what we really need is someone to figure out how to change the water background in battles.

If it could be replace by blackness it would already be nice.. if it could be replaced by something with a starry background even better

1. Can this be done? (if yes continue to question 2)
2. Who is gonna do this?

[JimMorrison]

llamabeast said:
What do you mean by having terrain defined by magic sites? Why not have it determined by terrain?




Well a few posts ago, I mentioned that the new list of sites would be heavily terrain dependent. So the terrain types would be analogous to different types of celestial bodies, rather than types of ecosystems as currently used. Thus, within the range of terrain types that habitable worlds can use (forest, grassland, default), one would use custom sites to delineate a particular region as something more interesting than "default".

[Darkwind]

Once again I'll just skim over most of this to say that in general, I think that nations with stronger planetbound troops will be more defensive (take a system/planet and hold it), while nations with powerful ships will be more offensive (use the powerful ships to invade many different systems and leverage the powerful navy).


JimMorrison said:
Hey are you married to that name? Neuclidia, or Neoclidia could be fun. Just a thought. <3


Excellent idea! Neoclidia it is.


What kind of sprites do you need? I can't download anything, just put a list on this thread as a reply.

Alright then.
YITHIANS (as long as it has two arms and four eyes it's fine)
-Cultist (base Yithian, just some clothes or robes or something is fine)
-High Cultist (commander, it'd also be nice if it was more priest-looking)
-Awakener (commander, they use digging lasers instead of claws for melee weapons)
-Elder Awakener (commander, really old, has really long "Strange Claws" instead of normal claws)

That's everything that I've finished for now. There's also the Deep Ones (not sure how they'll turn out, they can wait until later to be sprited), Shoggoths (kinda bubbly masses of stuff which will also come in War Shoggoth variety) and Nyars/Flying Polyps (not sure which ones I want or what they'll do yet).

Finally, I'd like it if you could make some Old Ones (and Lesser Old Ones, and Greater Old Ones...). Giant eyeless slugs with five arms, incoherent masses of living primordial goo, horrible beings that mankind has only glimpsed in the most fearsome of nightmares, go wild. Maybe a ranged (yay for beings who can blast multiple minds!) and melee (yay for weakness-inducing Strange Claws!) variety for each one? The Great Old Ones, of course, will all be unique. Also large and scary.

I'm trying not to limit your artistic expression. Am I doing it right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Sombre]

Darkwind said:
Excellent idea! Neoclidia it is.




Sounds like some horrible STD :O

[llamabeast]

ehm I was thinking about giving all Ulmish troops the same waterform (once active) but that can't work right? since then they can't transfor back to all their different froms on land? So if I wanted all troops to have the same spacesuit.. I'd need to make a form (nearly similar) for EACH troop?



Yes, but they could be EXACTLY similar. They would all be the same, apart from having different #landshapes. You might want to give them different names/descriptions though, so you could still differentiate them.

Agreed with Sombre that Neoclidia sounds like an STD. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Darkwind]

llamabeast said:Agreed with Sombre that Neoclidia sounds like an STD. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

At least it's more original than Noneuclidia! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif It reminds me of people's privates, too (if that doesn't sound creepy; if it does, forget I said it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ).

[llamabeast]

I think it's fair to say that sounds creepy.

[Darkwind]

llamabeast said:
I think it's fair to say that sounds creepy.

Looking back on it, yes, it does sound creepy. Very creepy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif

Also, any ideas for heroes for Neoclidia? Right now all I can think of is a super-holy Deep One (with H3S1, H3S2, or H4), some sort of really-really-old Awakener (likely S4 or S5, maybe S4H1), and a semi-strong Old One (not as weak as normal old Ones, but nowhere near the power of the Great Old Ones either). Does anyone have any better/equally nice ideas?

[JimMorrison]

That's okay, your illithid kitten avatar reminds me of..... Actually no, I'm not throwing myself under the bus to distract people from you, use your imagination. That kitten is HOT though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[HoneyBadger]

Heroes for Neoclidia? You mean besides Staff Infection Sergeant V. D. Schlongowitz, winner of the Dark Star for service on Herpes 4?

[Aezeal]

hmmm could someone focus on a nice other nation to battle against my Ulmish spaceknights?

This idea is nice but it seems to be suffering from pplz not doing much about it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Aezeal]

llama: about the spacesuits: if I can't use one creature I guess I might as well give them all their own stats and HP but just the same weapons, more realistic

for now they just get pooramphians though..

[Darkwind]

Aezeal said:
hmmm could someone focus on a nice other nation to battle against my Ulmish spaceknights?

This idea is nice but it seems to be suffering from pplz not doing much about it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

I'm making Neoclidia, which could be considered a spiritual successor to R'lyeh.

Also, have I been lax on the gold cost of troops/commanders? I expected that there wouldn't be nearly as much gold around as there would be in a standard Dominions game, but I might have undervalued some units.

Finally, can anyone suggest a better name than Dominions 3000? Or is Dom3K fine? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[JimMorrison]

I love Dom3K! Not only is this already Dominions 3, so it is so fitting, but it reminds me of MST3K, which is a pretty cool association. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

I'm trying to gather my ideas for the spell lists. Was wondering how really to go about it. It seems like we may not need to make use of all schools, it would just result in few spells being scattered about. Honestly, I think we could make the game fit into Conj/Alt/Evo/Cons. Anyone else have any thoughts on that? I figure Evo is your missiles, espionage and black ops - Alt is your actual buffs and whatnot, such as they might be - and then Conj and Cons would mostly be "summons" of various types for all of your various spacecraft.

I was just trying to figure out how to start structuring the spell lists, and it occurred to me that if all "summons" (except maybe just a few mercenary types) were species specific, and if we avoided having much if any actual pure magic - that there really might not be a tremendously large list of spells that are available to everyone. Even many of the "black ops" stuff may be specific, special biological attacks for one species, or different bombs for someone else.

God I just type..... Someone shoot me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Darkwind]

JimMorrison said:I was just trying to figure out how to start structuring the spell lists, and it occurred to me that if all "summons" (except maybe just a few mercenary types) were species specific, and if we avoided having much if any actual pure magic - that there really might not be a tremendously large list of spells that are available to everyone. Even many of the "black ops" stuff may be specific, special biological attacks for one species, or different bombs for someone else.

I was thinking that the elemental magics would all be tied in mostly to summoning (with Earth as the "main" path that pretty much every summon requires gems of, with maybe a few exceptions), which might allow for more ships to be accessed by everyone.

Also, I've attached the latest version of Neoclidia for your viewing pleasure. For Honeybadger's spriting pleasure, I've attached unit names, descriptions, and relevant statistics. With commentary.

#name "Yithian Cultist" (as long as the Yithians have four eyes and two arms, they're fine)
#descr "A follower of the Old Cult that permeates Neoclidian society. Yithians are slow and physically weak; however, they are mentally powerful enough to harm other beings by attacking their mind."
#weapon "Mindblast"
#weapon "Claw"

#name "Deep One Cultist"
#descr "A follower of the Old Cult that permeates Neoclidian society. Deep Ones are fish people ruled by nobility who also act as priests of the Great old Ones."
#weapon "Light Lasergun" (basically a gun, that fires lasers)
#weapon "Fist"
#armor "Light Armorsuit"
#end

#name "Deep One Soldier"
#descr "A Deep One trained in the art of war. Deep Ones are fish people ruled by nobility who also act as priests of the Great old Ones. Because Yithians are fragile, only Deep Ones and mindless constructs are part of the Neoclidian army."
#weapon "Lasergun"
#weapon "Fist"
#armor "Armorsuit"
#armor "Advanced Helmet" (I picture this as the kind of helmet that doesn't provide much protection, but comes with microphone-amplifier-things so you can talk to your squadmates when you can't actually hear or see them)

#name "Deep One Streamgunner"
#descr "Streamgunners are the Neoclidian frontline soldiers. Armed with short-range Streamguns and poqerful melee Lightswords, the Streamgunners are a useful, though expensive, asset for Neoclidia. Deep Ones are fish people ruled by nobility who also act as priests of the Great old Ones. Because Yithians are fragile, only Deep Ones and mindless constructs are part of the Neoclidian army."
#weapon "Streamgun" (it's a really big and bulky gun, that shoots streams of energy)
#weapon "Lightsword" (think lightsaber)
#armor "Heavy Armorsuit"
#armor "Advanced Helmet"

#name "Deep One Elite"
#descr "Deep Ones who show promise as soldiers are recruited into the Deep One Elite. Elites are given the best weapons and armor, making them a formidable fighting force. Deep Ones are fish people ruled by nobility who also act as priests of the Great old Ones. Because Yithians are fragile, only Deep Ones and mindless constructs are part of the Neoclidian army."
#weapon "Heavy Lasergun" (it's a really bulky gun, that shoots lasers)
#weapon "Lightsword"
#armor "Heavy Armorsuit"
#armor "Advanced Helmet"

-Commanders

#name "Deep One High Cultist" (hopefulyl loks fairly priest-y)
#descr "A leader in the Old Cult that permeates Neoclidian society. The High Cultists are in charge of preaching to the masses, though Deep One High Cultists can also lead small armies. Deep Ones are fish people ruled by nobility who also act as priests of the Great old Ones."
#weapon "Light Lasergun"
#weapon "Fist"
#armor "Deep one Robe"

#name "Deep One Priest" (hopefully it looks like, well, a priest)
#descr "Deep One nobility are all also leaders in the Neoclidian faith. The Deep One priests recruited from the nobility are able to move huge crowds to worshipping the Great Old Ones, and can also serve an offensive purpose in time of war, though they are weaker than most Deep Ones. Deep Ones are fish people ruled by nobility who also act as priests of the Great old Ones."
#weapon "Light Lasergun" (Deep Ones really seem to like carrying guns)
#weapon "Fist"
#armor "Deep one Robe"

#name "Yithian High Cultist"
#descr "A leader in the Old Cult that permeates Neoclidian society. The High Cultists are in charge of preaching to the masses, though Yithian High Cultists can also awaken Lesser Old Ones. Yithians are slow and physically weak; however, they are mentally powerful enough to harm other beings by attacking their mind."
#weapon "Mindblast"
#weapon "Claw"
#armor "Yithian Robe"

#name "Yithian Awakener"
#descr "The Awakeners scour planets, searching for Old Ones to awaken. They also serve as commanders of Neoclidian forces. Yithians are slow and physically weak; however, they are mentally powerful enough to harm other beings by attacking their mind."
#older 50
#weapon "Mindblast"
#weapon "Digger" (it's a little melee device used for digging)
#armor "Yithian Robe"

#name "Yithian Elder Awakener" (just in case you forgot, Yithians all have four eyes, and also become old at 200)
#descr "Elder Awakeners are all powerful enough to summon Old Ones reliably, though not even the oldest can contact the Great Old Ones. Elder Awakeners are mentally potent, though physically very fragile, and can lead large numbers of Neoclidians. Yithians are slow and physically weak; however, they are mentally powerful enough to harm other beings by attacking their mind."
#older 100
#weapon "Mindblast"
#weapon "Mindblast"(Elder Awakeners crack some skulls together... mentally!)
#weapon "Strange Claw" (it's basically a really long set of claws, that cause Weakness, and are also used by the Old Ones; this reminds me, I was planning on having the Deep One Priest have Strange Claws too. Oh well)
#armor "Yithian Robe"

[Aezeal]

Sounds nice but can someone start with a more regular nation too which would make it easier to test the game mechanics with.

[Darkwind]

I don't really understand. Sure, they have Mindblasters, but they'll need a lot more resources than R'lyeh due to their units not being naked mindless slaves. Sure, they'll have national summons, but they won't have a Void Gate or anything like that. How is Neoclidia irregular (other than not being a human nation)?

Edit: I asked the exact same question twice. Worded exactly the same.

[Aezeal]

I think one shouldn't invest in Neoclidia too much yet personally first see how "regular" nations work out.. then make neoclidia special..

or just make it and change it later http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Aezeal]

PS my first version of this mod.. just to get others into this since I didn't start this thread but I damn sure need more help getting this somewhere

It uses part of the mods that put all nations in MA.. use LA for the space nations (only 2)

I actually didn't get it to work and somehow my dominions make me need to restart the comp after I quit it once per comp session (is something of last week, no idea why)

I think it's fixed now and will work though

TRY IT!!!

I need to remove indies from water provinces though.. any idea how to do that?

[Aezeal]

ow yes I shamelessly used sprites made by others for this with only very minimal changes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif... but that was allowed for those unit sprites http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif freeeware http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Darkwind]

It says that I need spacemap.rgb to use the map.

Just wondering, where can I find this spacemap.rgb? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Edit: Just realized it was in the download. I put the downloads in the wrong place, I guess I missed spacemap.rgb. D'oh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Edit again: I started in a space province, because no provinces have any terrains attached. Is this intentional?

Third edit!: I couldn't open the recruitment screen because the Freighter unit or somesuch wasn't found.

[Aezeal]

ah well I'll correct that later then http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

in my attempts so far I didn't start in a space prov.. I tagged most of them as sea though.. which one did I forget?

I edited the freighter thingie.. upload again and try it now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

no time to test it myself no since I need to get to my work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Darkwind]

I just got the error again. It's

myloadmalloc: can't open ./mods/./Ulm in space/2622_Ulm_Freighter_1.tga

I think it's less about the unit and more about the sprite. Maybe you should just copy the Transport sprite?

[Aezeal]

which province was not good I can work on it a bit now

[HoneyBadger]

I just added some more sprites to the other thread, they should all be done by today.

[Darkwind]

Aezeal said:
which province was not good I can work on it a bit now

I checked again, and the second time I used the map everything seems fine. I still can't open the recruitment without getting an error, but otherwise, everything's fine.

[Aezeal]

mine works fine now
I'll create a new thread for it though.. it'll be a bit lost here

[Darkwind]

I just finished what could be considered "Neoclidia Beta". It has a pretender, magic sites, enough units and commanders to be usable, and, well, not much more. I rushed a bit to get it to a point where it could be used for Aezeal's mod, so no summons yet (though you do have the priests and magi). I'd post this in Aezeal's thread for his map, but Aezeal's mod is still fun despite being somewhat incomplete, by the way, in my opinion (BTWIMO?). Great work on the graphics, HoneyBadger.

I also made a few new units, so Honeybadger's quite large list of "Sprites To Do For Darkwind" is now even larger (I don't mean to put such a load on you!):

#name "Elder One" (the Pretender God)
#descr "The Elder One is an Old One who refused to sleep. After aeons of wandering, the Elder One found Neoclidia and steered it towards awakening his brethren. Now, the Elder One plans to conquer the galaxy again, and make it as it was in the old times before lesser beings existed.
#size 4
#eyes 12
#weapon "Mindblast"
#weapon "Strange Claw"
#weapon "Strange Claw"

#name "Shoggoth" (the trampler)
#descr "Shoggoths are constructs, built for menial labor and endowed with a simple mind. They are composed of a half-solid, half-liquid goo which is hard to penetrate and can crush objects easily. They can be converted to warfare when the need arises."
#blind
#weapon "fist"

#name "War Shoggoth" (the better trampler)
#descr "Shoggoths are constructs, built for menial labor and endowed with a simple mind. They are composed of a half-solid, half-liquid goo which is hard to penetrate and can crush objects easily. War Shoggoths are trained from creation to be a powerful asset in battle. They are faster, larger and stronger than a typical Shoggoth."
#blind
#weapon "fist"

#name "Deep One Captain"
#descr "Deep Ones who show promise as soldiers and are also capable of leading warriors become Deep One Captains. Captains are the most valued of the Neoclidian army, and are thus heavily protected. Deep Ones are fish people ruled by nobility who also act as priests of the Great old Ones. Because Yithians are fragile, only Deep Ones and mindless constructs are part of the Neoclidian army."
#weapon "Lasergun"
#weapon "Lightsword"
#armor "Heavy Armorsuit"
#armor "Advanced Helmet"

#newmonster 2213
#name "Neoclidian Warship"
#descr "A Neoclidian Warship fitted for commanding duties.Though the ship is not very large as ships go, it is still quite large compared to most living beings."
#size 5
#weapon "Anti-Ship Cannons"
#armor "Ship Plating"

[Aezeal]

OK here the first space map to fit with the Dominions 3000 idea and a mod file to start playing with it as my Galactic Ulm race vs the same race (called Galactic Ulm Rebels)

V 0.20 is out now and as of this version I consider it an actual playable nation

Ulm now has several troops including: marines, close-combat specialist, heavy troopers and artillery troopers and even a fighter (spaceship)

It also has a range of commanders and mages

Try it!!!!

In the future more units will be added, and summons etc!!!

play is and plz give feedback on what is important

Things I've thought:
with more ranged combat
- airbless will be much better
- airshield should be higher research and more enc.
- all spells influencing ranged combat should be more expensive (arrowfend, fire arrows)

anyone able to mod these spells and put the .dm lines in here can expect them to be used in my mod ASAP

[Aezeal]

I've thought of an ideal nation for a space race from myths of our time:
The ousters of the hyperion/endymion saga by Dan simmons

They are perfect to be the "nature" race in space

all sorts of wierd liveforms, men adapted to life and fly in space, treeships

they have it all!!!

Good books to read too !!


THE SHRIKE AS LEVEL 9 summon !!!

[Aezeal]

I've encountered a big problem for dom 3000.

I can't think if a way to get around no ranged combat in water... which means spaceships can only bump against eachother..
my spacemarines walk upto the enemy in water (and then get slaughetered)

[llamabeast]

It can't be true that there's no ranged combat in water I think, because illithids can still use their mind blasts.

[llamabeast]

Ah, just read your posts on the Mytheology thread. More complicated than I thought then.

[Aezeal]

yes there are a few weapons, but in the UOR there seems no way to copystats weapons and then edit them. just to select them and edit them

as far as I can see from reading UOR the only thing you could do is select and edit those weapons which have it and then change them.. but since I already need a lot of them there will never be enough.

Am I missing something?

[llamabeast]

I recommend adding a post to the mod wishlist for a #worksunderwater tag. JK's been adding a lot of tags lately.

No idea whether you're missing something sorry, haven't played around in this area.

[Aezeal]

yeah the tag seems to exist so it would be great if we could mod it into weapons!!
Can you also ask a command to change/create poptypes and to give us options to select which poptype is used where :D

[Psientist]

sorry I'm late to this thread. Here are some thoughts.... I made a star trek mod of an old Dominions-esque game called Warlords years ago, and what helped the map problem was.... STARGATES! Dominions 3 maps can make links between ANY two provinces on a map, not just contiguous ones. So, you could fill the map with systems and a limited number of gates.

two -- Torpedoes! Create a unit (ship) that #summons or #makemonsters units with no defense or protection, berserk, fast moving and flying (which does work underwater if you set it up right), and with the "blood vengeance" trait. banzai!

There is also a way to set up a battlefield spell to summon monsters to the field randomly around the battle area. I've got it in my notes somewhere, you can bitmask it.

Lasers - probably have to be set up as spells to get the "underwater" distancing right....

Is there a way I wonder to edit the battlefield animations? probably not in the mod manuals, but if you had the right tools I bet it could be kludged.

And now for crazy talk... why not flip-flop the land-air thing? if you made land=space, that would open up your space combat, and make ground combat more limited, which seems to me more the focus of the mod. the aquatic / amphibian / air breathing limitations could probably be made to work both ways.

An interesting effort.

[HoneyBadger]

The "flip-flop" idea is brilliant, Psientist.

[Aezeal]

The first idea can obviously be used.. has been mentioned before too I think.

Torpedoes would be a bit problematic I think since if you have a lot of them at one target they'd wait in line to get killed to deal damage.
--> I'm juts thinking of another idea though, very similar but more workable. If you'd make an attack that deals damage to someone and then deals damage to self it would work (creature is deployed, with flying it attacks, then deals damage and is destroyed in the explotion. Only I know of no way to deal damage to self yet except AOE damage larger than 1 and that wouldn't be full proof either.

Lasers could work.. but not for regular creatures since they have no magic skills.

The flip-flop idea is the most interesting I'll admit but having ranged combat in space and not on land would be weird too (for me personally it's not the idea to make landcombat more limited perse).

The flip flop would help with the other problam I'm encountering: max map move 1 in water .. so ou can travel over a lot of planets.. but interstellar travel will be slow. flying creatures also cannot fly and land in water it seems. annoying too.

[llamabeast]

I was just looking at Psientist's thread about making useful items. It looks, from the way the code's written, as if he's able to copy current items. So, could you copy the ethereal crossbow in this way, and give it to units as a normal weapon? Or is that nonsense?

[Aezeal]

Well I wouldn't know how to give normal units magic items.

The other thing he said about giving units a piercer 2nd effect doesn't work.. I tried and they still don't fire.. which is WAD since it needs to hit before the effect goes.

[Aezeal]

2nd effect always doesn't work either

[Aezeal]

hmm I got the piercer to work in water


#selectweapon 168
#name "waterBlaster"
#dmg 8
#nostr
#att 0
#def 0
#len 0
#range 60
#ammo 50
#nratt 1
#rcost 2
#armorpiercing
#end

that works.. so the flip flop idea ight work if we only use like 2 ranged weapons for land combat between all the races (blaster and heavy blaster or whatever)

only the weapon is magical and armour negating (even with teh armor piercing command behind it and even if I entered dt_normal right after naming it) so that isn't idea either

[Darkwind]

I'm sure I'm going to sound like a newb for this (since I am), but how exactly to I change .txt files into .dm files? I can't figure it out, and it would be a great help if I knew how to. :confused:

Also, for those of you who are actually following the development of Neoclidia, I haven't actually done anything with it for a while and probably won't for a while due to school (though I'll try and fit something in; the Great Old Ones call to me!).

[Aezeal]

I think I usually just save them as .dm in wordpad (which I use for editing them :D)

You need to start looking for pics on the net to rip though :D usually quite some work :D

[Aezeal]

OK I'm totally fed up with the no flying and no shooting in space we currently have.

screw water provinces.

Since I seem the one most active with dom 3000 atm I'm making a (temporary) change in mechanics.

(temporary since I do hope to get either watershape and the command to use ranged weapons in water and flying could be simulated by AP 100 or 1000 OR get air/space province which would totally rock)

No more water provinces, planets get a land type and space just gets to be "unidentied land" or whatever it should be called.

this is in no way a setback since atm I alreay had to make about every troop amph/aquatic or poor amph (having some troops be poor amph was sort of nice since it represents the dangling in space without a clue.)

Besides that the only thing we loose is that now I was able to create troops that couldn't go into space.

Just making everything land will let all troops go everywhere, and use their weapons everywhere --> a good thing I think.

I think I will mod all waterprovince on my maps down to about 2K inhabitants living in spacestations or something.

If anybody has better idea's to solve the numerous problems water provinces bring us I'd love to hear them though.

Also if pplz want to help I'd love to get some help with new nations

Who started this dom 3000 idea anyway ???

[HoneyBadger]

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Re: A fourth age

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Battlemechs Age?
Post-Nuclear Apocalypse Age anyone?


HoneyBadger
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Re: A fourth age

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How about a nice mod option (please, devs?) to create whatever set of "ages" we want? You could have LOTR Middle Earth ages, some weird age mod where everything is set in space, and provinces are really planets, or whatever you dream up.
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#20 07-25-08, 05:06 AM


JimMorrison
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Re: A fourth age

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OMG I want to do a space battle game. I may just have to learn how to mod now, that seems so exciting.


So I'm sharing credit with Tifone for the inspiration (post Nuclear apocalypse/mechs) and Jim (Space battles-OMG!) for the enthusiasm :)


I'm trying to come up with a Space Kraken nation, but I haven't decided if that'll actually work out or not...

I also want to see something based on Barsoom/John Carter of Mars.

War of the Worlds is another obvious nation inspirer.

Daleks belong in the game, especially since they've got a Dalek Emperor now, for a Pretender.

Maybe something like a cross between C'Tis and the Egyptian badguys in StarGate?

I'd love to see the Necrontyr, Tyranids, and Tao from WH40k

And I want to see a really strong (as in well-balanced, interesting, easy to play, and good looking) crystal species in the game.

[HoneyBadger]

Space Kraken (modified internet image):

[Psientist]

I noticed that the d3k map/mod didn't have a banner, so I created one.

Devs, can I state for the record that it's silly for the game to require targa images for some modding purposes, but the forum won't let us upload targa files (.tga)?

[Aezeal]

thx �*t'll be in the next version (and for those interested: so will nautiloid Illithid ships (from spelljammer) (unless they are already in, can't remember) and Elder brains (think dune navigators)

and some banners, thanks to Zepaths cus they are from Sns 3

[Aezeal]

so you dl'd it any feedback btw?

[Psientist]

No feedback yet - tried to set it up, but it lacked a readme, and I didn't see which nations I was supposed to use (I picked MA ulm vs Ryleh, but it didn't look right). I haven't had the time to look at the forums or try again. I realize this is all my stupids, it's probably obvious, but haven't really had time to check it out yet.

[HoneyBadger]

Aezeal-you deserve a lot of thanks and credit too, for keeping this project going!

Because of you, it's actually seen the light of day, where a lot of ideas haven't.

[Aezeal]

Well no thanks, the idea was nice and when I found those first sprites I could lend I just couldn't stop myself

PS Psientist: I copied the all nations mod or whatever to place all nations in MA so I didn't hav problems with them.

The NEW nations (the one the mod is about) are in LA (now very very late age :D)

I'll upload a new version 0.41 (not that much news) and you can play r'lyeh and ulm (jomon is waiting for filling forget them)

[HoneyBadger]

I'll see if I can't locate you a temporary dragon image for Jomon. It won't be original, but it'll be useable as a placeholder, and will likely look better than most of the stuff I do myself.

[Aezeal]

man I nearly missed the space kraken..

We'll get him in as an indie first I need more variation there anyway, maybe I'll not make him as overpowered as the space eel though :D

If you have some suggestions for stats we'll use those.. it's your sprite and your idea :D

[HoneyBadger]

Just one I cut out from a drawing somebody else did, and then reversed the colors on. Took maybe an hour. I'll try to think up some stats though, and maybe post an attack sprite for it.

[TheMenacer]

I'm not really sure if this is the thread for this, but I had a thought for the (potential) general theme of this mod's version of Agartha.

I can't see them as anything other than the race that controls lost tech that's thousands of years old and also is inexplicably advanced for whatever dumb reason. Their standard theme seems to be a race of people desperately clinging to and worshipping the past, so technology that is both ancient and devastating seems to fit the bill pretty well. Plus if you want to incorporate the remains of the pale ones because you can't have Agartha without the pale ones, it'd be the coolest thing on the planet to have huge tomb ships that are guided by the mummy of an Agarthan Tomb Oracle. Not even reanimated, just a mummified corpse sitting in the control room, inexplicably guiding the movements of an enormous ship full of unidentifiable and unexplainable technology that was lost centuries ago.

[HoneyBadger]

That sounds like a really cool idea-reminds me a bit of the Navigator race from Alien.

[Aezeal]

Sounds good, maybe combine it a bit with lots of death magic and a bit of WH 40K Necron style.

The Menacer: make it so :D
(start ripping sprites from warhammer 40K and the agarthe sprites already tehre.. ifyo have some nice ones we need to use mod some stats foor them and they will be included :D)

[Darkwind]

It's been quite a while since I've updated anything (I started school a couple weeks ago, but that isn't everything), but I figured I'd ask this: Should I just stop working on Neoclidia? It seems like no one really cares. Plus, Aezeal has included R'lyeh (which will liely overlap Neoclidia in many places) in his current mod, which seems to have become the Official Dom3K Mod (interestingly, most nations right now are simply extensions of old Dominions III nations into space). Not to mention the (very cool) Aboleth nation Honeybadger is working on for Dom3K. Thus is seems like Neoclidia doesn't really have much of a place. So, shall I begin working on something else?

Note: Work will likely be slow, if it does happen, due to school and chronic procrastination.

Note 2: Why are basing Dom3K nations (if the current ones aren't temporary) off of Dominions III nations' military and culture almost exclusively? We could use the modern-day culture of the nations' inspired, well, cultures as well as the Dominions III state. For example, Jomon could be a primarily space-based nation with few and slightly weaker planetside units, depending on enemies not getting to your bases rather than defending the bases themselves (since Japan is an island nation, and if I remember, doesn't have much of a military). Ulm has many things you could take from WWI, WWII, and the current day (if going by WWI, a slightly outdated offensive military but powerful defenses (just like everyone else in WWI), but slightly cheaper than normal units due to the offensive nature of heir part in WWI, or possibly a larger stronger army; if going by WWII, an incredible offensive army with poor defenses and little AoE so that Eastern Front-style infantry swarms would be fairly effective; if using the modern day, err, long-ranged aircraft and a resource bonus at bases due to a powerful economy? I don't know, modern-day Germany doesn't bring to mind any special tanks, weapons, or the like). Oh wow that was really really long. But anyways yeah we don't need space-wars based off of ancient cultures. Although a bunch of warriors in loincloths duking it out on Tatooine does sound sort of cool.

It's too late for me to write things, they turn out too lengthy. Sigh.

[HoneyBadger]

I do care about this, and I hope you'll keep working on Neoclidia.

I wish I could offer more concrete advice on the various directions this should take as far as balancing and .DM files and such, but I'm handicapped by lack of a computer to test it on. I will continue to work on mod nations for this, but I'm trying to actually eat everything on my plate-and that's a lot!

As it is, I've got 4 regular mod nations-plus Aboleths in space-plus 10 dragons to draw and post (9 that I haven't started yet). Too much, I know, but only a fraction of the things I'd like to accomplish (I can think of atleast 8 mod nations off the top of my head that I'd like to work on, each one original and interesting, and filling a percieved gap in the game.). Hopefully, by limiting myself to just these projects, I can get them all done in a relatively short span of time (a few months, rather than several years).

I'll get some work done on Aboleths 3K this weekend-tomorrow's my friday.

[Aezeal]

Your idea's for Jomon are nice.. but since we don't have seperate space land type it's hard making the difference between space and planet. (which I'm not doing anymore, all is land for the reasons mentioned above.)

I think that ifyou are getting on with neoclidia you should just finish it and we'll put the 2 of them in or merge them.

If you'd read nation descriptions you'll see I've tried to make clear the differences between Ulm and Jomon
- Ulm is all about tech and some magic
- Jomon is about mage-tech

-Ulm does regular and armor piercing damage
- Jomon does all sorts of elemental damamge

-Ulm has standards
-Jomon doesn't

-Ulm is pure human
-Jomon includes Oni

-Ulm has very resource intensive and high protection ships
-Jomon has lighter battlesuits with lower protection

-Ulm has a scout
-Jomon has a Ninja

about only basing on existing dom 3 nations: Ulm actually hasn't much to do with Ulm in game except that when I was busy with the space marines (like warhammer 40K spacemarines) I kept seeing similarities with Ulm and just called them Ulm and gave them earthmages (which was the idea anyway) and a resource and forgebonus.

Starting Jomon is the idea of nickelaodus and he wanted to introduce battlesuits for them.. I though of getting the Yomi-oni back in cus I like the idea of humans and demons fighting together and from there I got to the whole elemental damage thingie.

R'lyeh I started cus they always had starspawn and came from space plus I needed a 2nd nation fast to play around with and for R'lyeh I could copysprite quite some sprites and easily modify another. I already had the indies and I thought.. well regular R'lyeh could enslave the other waterraces but we odn't have that anymore so what is closest to take over then.. which where clearly the indie aliens and fighters (which suits me since it got R'lyeh some cheap but not too cheap (lobo-guards is way to cheap) chaff which is not as good as the troops of Ulm (and later Jomon) and I think that is how it should be since R'lyeh just takes pplz over and doesn't focus much on building spaceships for their chaff (so I included a slav mechanic which in my vision are the mages of teh blue aliens forced to use their powers on things the illithid don't want too).

I tried to include some story in all the background and for me it all fits nicely.

Personally I think it's nice to be able to recoginize the evolvement the nations have made from LA to dom 3000 a bit.

If you want non dom3 nations in dom3000.. keep making them.I don't know Neoclidia so can't help you.. you could always use Honeybadgers aboleths of they fit with your nation too.. and then endoperez xenofungus/mindworm symbiosis nation :D

[HoneyBadger]

Jomon really ought to get a 'Prince of Space' hero (I wonder if anyone will even get this reference) :)

[Aezeal]

no idea's I'd think if prince of persia but Jomon is persia...

If you let me know what it refers too though I'll see if I can make a hero of him (he'll need to wear a battle suit though)

Wiki tells me something of a lousy superhero (planet prince) that doesn't really inspire me though :D

[HoneyBadger]

Yes, 'Planet Prince'. That's the one. Not really meant to be inspirational, but something campy and fun to put into a mod as an Easter Egg hero.

Prince of Space/Planet Prince is one of the movies dubbed by the fine folks at Mystery Science Theater 3000, and inspired by 'Super Giant', Japan's first modern superhero (so Wiki tells me). So, if we're talking about modern mythology and Japan, then I think he deserves a place in
Dom3K.

I'd suggest giving him the ability to fly, darkvision, and maybe some 2 astral and 2 fire (enough to cast 'Star Fires'? I think?), with a 'Super Giant' size 6 giant (non-flying, non-magical) melee secondform with good natural Prot.

Not my mod, ofcourse, so it's entirely up to you.

[Aezeal]

As mentioned before, the TV version looks very similar to Super Giant, in that both wear cowled costumes and capes. Each character also has super powers and flies. The movie version (produced by Toei) is different, as Prince of Space wears a streamlined costume, cape and helmet. He has no superpowers other than the invulnerability of his costume. He uses weapons (a wand-like laser gun) and flies a small spaceship.

Why should he have darkvision and be able to cast starfires.. this seems to say he just needs high protection :D (I've got a bit of a problem with giving Jomon astral to be honest, but with a good reason a hero could get it if needed)
Why a second form?

[HoneyBadger]

Well, last thing first-the secondform would be the 'Super Giant' :)

'Darkvision' because he can detect radiation, 'Starfires', because he's the Prince of Space (I was thinking he'd get the power from his spaceship, but a wand weapon works, if you'd rather not give him magic)

And I suggested giving the human-sized "Prince" version magic and flying, and not giving the 'Super Giant' version flying, because it would differentiate the two forms from each other, making each viable in different circumstances.

[Darkwind]

This brings up a question: Are we going a wholly technological route, or is magic going to be brought into the mix as well? Will we be keeping some of the current spells? How will we fit reanimation in (and preaching, too, although we could just ignore priests for the most part)? Will magic be a usually good, maleable, or evil force (ie, will magic generally do more good for people, more bad for people, or simply depend on the user)? How, exactly, will magic and technology interact? How long is it until my legion of questions gains sentience and takes over the world? How useful are they?!

I was almost going to suggest a nation with steampunkesque technology fueled by magical means, but I'm fairly sure it's been done before and sounds rather cliche.

[HoneyBadger]

I think-atleast for our purposes, and for the sake of philosophical efficiency-it's best to decide that "magic" and "technology" function as the same thing. Anything we can't easily explain away can be assumed to be produced by some sort of future Deus Ex Machina. Trust me that it saves unnecessary headaches.

and Steampunk would be fine! One of the nicest things about Steampunk is that it can fit in pretty much any era. I've seen examples from the era of Sun Tzu to the timeline of Dune, and it always works.

[Aezeal]

I think they should both be in and earth magic just is both. To leave magic out while that is such a huge thing in dominions would basicly mean we make a different dominions with less options. I think magic should not be evil or good, but just as in dominions a tool.

I don't know if your (DW) question was also a reply on my explanation about the nations but I'll explain how I thought of magic when creating them at least.

Since Ulm always was more Iron and stuff and less resources I just try to make them look like they invented spaceflight and weapon like "we" on this earth have and they just use magic beside it and to create the same things we do now.

I figured Jomon can't do that yet but that they enhance simpler machines with magic etc so they can fly too and have simpler weapons but enchanted n stuff so they can have powerfull elemental weapons.

What the aliens and R'lyeh exactly use I don't really care.. probably something in between :D

I think that most nations could have earth or something/earth spells to create spacecraft that aren't recruitable if the nation should have them (like Ulm)

I personally think earth magic should be very prominent in the game since it really reflects building spaceship best.. I think most races should have access to earth magic so that race can have a summoning spell for spaceship/or other things like tanks and whatnot if we want them to have one. I also think this should need to be very powerfull earth magic (most case earth 1 would be enough and then the spell could have other paths) else everyone will be throwing bladewinds etc :D

[Aezeal]

There is another thing I'd like to discuss though.
The dom 3.20 has water, forest and plain shape.

shape changing could be nice for getting pplz into space.. but IMHO water still presents with too much problems (no flying in water, no shooting in water, no more than 1 map move in water) so I think it's still not a good idea to use water as space..

on the otherhand IF we want other forms for space (which might be a nice idea and could give us further options to make spaceships different from ground troops (useable in both space and ground while troops would generally be less effective in space) then we could use plain or forest shape. make all space either plain or forest and we have a lot of options with this.

Sure you can't make troops amphibious or aquatic.. but you could certainly make the forest shape weaker if the troops needed to be ineffective in space OR the regular form weaker if a space ship shoulnd't be as effective on land.


I want to know you guys think since it'll be quite some work if I need to adept the current mod to this. So I'd like all those working on this or interested in it to share their opinion.

Personally the mod as it is now works for me too. Space combat is the same as planet combat (but the background can't be changed anyway) but I just made all space province have less troops and have spacy recruitables.

[Aezeal]

I would really really like to know what pplz think about this problem (last post) (Darkwind? Honeybadger? Nick? Jim --> where has he been he's named in the first post)

[Nikelaos]

i think the idea of changing space into forest or plain is a good idea, with zero gravity no flying at all is unreasonable so space shouldn't be treated as sea for this reason, to give more realism we could make all units have say a forest form with flying (due to zero gravity in space) and then have some with a normal form without flying for battling on planets surface.

[Aezeal]

that was the idea, thx for the reaction and the support. I'd still like the opinions of the others too :D

[Aezeal]

hey honey I know you are around.. what do you think? If this isn't answered in a week after I asked the question I'll have to make up my mind alone I fear.. after that no comments about what isn't good about it plz :D

[Darkwind]

I was thinking that space would be plains. It'd be a lot simpler I think, since you wouldn't have any special symbols, just a blank area where forest or mountains or such should be. Sort of like empty space where planets or stars or such should (not) be.

Also, anyone have any ideas for Neoclidia? Right now I'm working on the Old Ones (spaceships pushed back for a while). I plan on having two Old One/Lesser Old One types, ranged and melee, and three Great Old Ones (Ktalu, He L'geb, and Azathoth, all of whom are more or less transferred straight from the Mythos; all of them are awesome but He L'geb is supposed to be the most awesomest of them all). Right now this is pretty much all I have planned for the Old Ones. Any ideas for other summons? Since Azathoth is going to be king (daemon-sultan to be specific) of the void beyond the universe, I suppose he must have subjects. Likely blind and mindless, as a nod to Azathoth's role in the Dream Cycle. Also, any ideas for ships? Possible national spells?

Finally, I think I'll update the front post now. Nikelaos seems to be rather active with Aezeal's mod.

[Aezeal]

hey plains is the the blank? how do you call the thing with the bushel then?

I have no idea what neoclidia exactly is but great old ones.. are those the same things honeybadger is fooling around with?

[Darkwind]

Yeah, plains are the blank space. I assume the bushes (because a bushel is a unit of measurement) you're talking about are actually the little tree, which means forest.

Also, since you seem to have forgotten already, Neoclidia is a nation with a few ties to R'lyeh but more to the Cthulhu Mythos (which Honeybadger is also working with, and which R'lyeh is partially based upon). The Great Old Ones are, well, powerful and old beings. Cthulhu, for example, lives (or rather sleeps) under the sea in R'lyeh (an underwater city, duh). A lot of Lovecraft's work is based around the idea that there are forces much more powerful than humanity which simply don't care about humans; forces which are not good or evil, but simply have completely different thought processes than humans. What Wikipedia tells me is that then August Derleth came along and messed it all up with his 'good' and his 'evil' and his 'elemental forces'. :cold:

[Aezeal]

so shouldn't you and honey work together then :D and create one nation out of this since honey clearly admits he's got a lot of other priorities and his idea's aren't that simple maybe you could just borrow some of his good ideas and put them in your mod which I think will be finished a few centuries before Honey even has his new computer :D

I meant the farmland icon which I though was a a pack of grain which I thought is also called a bushel but it's not now I look at it again

ok so plainshape it will be .. will be a lot of work, need to decide which ones deserve a 2nd shape and which ones don't even need one. wtf to do with monsters in space.. can't give them a space suit or a pod .. they'd need a cage and then they'd be useless... well that might be the best idea and then it'll have to be balanced in price.

Another thing I was thinking of is giving militia (or most militia) a very very useless space form.. that would lower their price though but then they'd be VERY effective just to defend the province they are in, that might invite turtling.
I'll start plainshaping ulm since I hear their infantry is a bit overpowered.. a less effective space form might be just what they need.

Jomon's battlesuits stay the same in space I think, as do all spaceships
I guess R'lyeh's chaff need to have weaker plainshapes to and the predator aliens (which you haven't seen yet, another indie that R'lyeh dominates) needs to go in cages and not be able to do anything in space. R'lyeh still has the spacepirates though.

Another thing I fear while thinking of this is that pplz might just go for the most flexible troops (which are the spaceships) a solution would be to give them a weaker "landshape" but I can't really explain to myself (and thus to others) WHY a spaceshipfighter wouldn't be as effective on the earth (in shooting for example)

[Darkwind]

I think the solution to the ship problem is to make spaceships cost a lot more. Maybe 15 upkeep for a basic, recruitable ship, with a capital ship armed to the teeth costing as much as 100 gold per turn, as well as quite a few gems. Troops would likely be slower in space and less accurate, so there's an idea for you. Also, militia are essentially raw recruits from the general populace who likely don't even know how to handle a gun or have any useful weapons, useful only because they're easy to produce. Militia in space would likely have practically no mobility, very little precision, and low health (due to the harsh conditions of space and their inadequate armor). At least that's the way I see it.

Finally, Neoclidia and HB's Aboleths are fairly different, though both borrow somewhat from the same source material. Neoclidia is centered around the idea of the Great Old Ones and their awakening while the Aboleths are, well, undead fish-things spewed from a black hole who create pylons which use said magical hole's energy to summon various undead critters from worlds sucked into the hole, among other things. Two completely different ideas.

[Nikelaos]

. Troops would likely be slower in space and less accurate, so there's an idea for you. Also, militia are essentially raw recruits from the general populace who likely don't even know how to handle a gun or have any useful weapons, useful only because they're easy to produce. Militia in space would likely have practically no mobility, very little precision, and low health (due to the harsh conditions of space and their inadequate armor). At least that's the way I see it.


i disagree with this, with no air resistance in space you actually wouldn't slow down so fast(less friction) and the course of ranged amunnition wouldn't be affected by the direction the wind blows in, meaning units should in theory go faster and missiles should be more accurate. Saying this it would likely be hard to direct yourself when moving in space, now i know some commanders can autocast spells in battle (like the communicant thing which does auto communion slave) but i don't think we can for units (though it's worth checking anyway), if we could then we could mod all these militias to auto cast blink at the start of a battle to emulate them not really being able to control where they are going. If not then i have no other ideas right now.

Also i agree with militias have reduced hp due to the conditions in space.

[Aezeal]

Hmm I've looked into #plainshape and it appears to be the opposite of #forestshape (so not a seperate form for when you move to a plain, but the form you get when leaving a forest.)

I'll do a lil test with this but it probably means we'll have to use forests as space. which means 'we'll probably have to give nearly all forms forest survival for else they won't be able to move fast through space.

[Aezeal]

Well seems that plainshape isn't what we wanted.. so I've changed all space to forest and put a forestform on all units that REALLY need it (some remain open for debate)

I'll test it a bit myself tomorrow and if it seems to work for a few units then I'll post the mod.

This certainly means we need to do a race that is best in space too.. sadly we can't let them randomly start in space (nothing like a "foreststart" command in the game) but I'll place it on the map if we have such a nation (maybe they neoclidia?)

Hey how is your nation proceeding anyway? I could already put what you have (if you also have some art) in the next version as a sort of teaser. If you have like 2-3 ready units with stats and an idea for the start sites then you could send me the code and the sprites and I'll put them in before I release this

[Darkwind]

My idea for Neoclidia was to make them an aggressive race with powerful space-faring units, yeah. This is what I have so far, in .dm form. No sprites though. I'd love it if someone (anyone!) could get me some, since I'll likely otherwise just start taking them from Dominions III itself (and no one wants Illithid-flavored Yithians or Shoggoths who look like piles of meat). Also notice the Old Ones line is done and I began work on the ships (although no spells are in yet so the Old Ones don't feature in yet). Finally, I wanted to give Azathoth blood vengeance but the manual said nothing on how to so I gave him fire shield instead. So yeah I think I'm making inroads (all of the troops' planet forms are done, Old Ones are done, sites are in, retender is in) but I still have a lot to do before this becomes a complete nation.

Also the balance is completely off whack most likely; I can't balance due to being spriteless. I don't really want to test a nation where all of my units look like shades because I couldn't find any other sprite.

Edit: Text file as well if anyone wants that instead.

[Aezeal]

aren't there some dom 3 sprites you can colorize and then use...

[Aezeal]

I really like your nation and I think it will fit in perfectly. Your troops look great and divers. There are just a few armor and weapon thing:

I gave all ships a natural high protection (to avoid a low head protection.) I see you giva e ship prot 0 and then shipplating. I'd recommend you change that to no armor and just 20 prot.

All your ranged weapons have very high #att and that means troops and ships will fire AP, high damage shot AND can't miss. (att 10 means +10 precision I think) already the ranged troops I have in my mod rip through indies and yours would be even worse.
In addition to this I think the heavy lasergun might be a lil too strong on the #dmg part.
The anti-ship cannons (why anti-ship they seem to be able to kill troops just as well.. why not just cannons?) suffer from this too.

Basicly just lil changes I'd advice based upon what I've encountered so far in playtesting my own nations.

Another thing is that I think it might be best if we just use the same weapons as base weapons (not the fancy stuff like your strang claws and deadly signs) but these

#newweapon 652
#name "Light Lasergun"
#att 5
#armorpiercing
#dmg 8
#nostr
#rcost 2
#range 40
#ammo 30
#explspr 10102
#end

#newweapon 653
#name "Lasergun"
#att 10
#armorpiercing
#dmg 12
#nostr
#rcost 3
#range 45
#ammo 40
#explspr 10102
#end


#newweapon 656
#name "Heavy Lasergun"
#att 20
#def 1
#armorpiercing
#dmg 18
#nostr
#rcost 5
#range 50
#ammo 50
#explspr 10102
#end

and

#newweapon 657
#name "Anti-Ship Cannons"
#att 20
#def 0
#armorpiercing
#dmg 15
#nratt 2
#nostr
#aoe 1
#rcost 25
#range 75
#ammo 50
#explspr 10110
#flyspr 362 4
#end

kinda resembles

#newweapon 700
#name "Laser pistol"
#dmg 8
#nostr
#att 0
#def 0
#len 0
#range 40
#ammo 50
#nratt 1
#rcost 1
#end

#newweapon 701
#name "Blaster"
#dmg 10
#nostr
#att -1
#def 0
#len 0
#range 50
#ammo 50
#nratt 1
#rcost 2
#armorpiercing
#end

#newweapon 702
#name "Power Blaster"
#dmg 12
#nostr
#att -1
#def 0
#len 0
#range 60
#ammo 50
#nratt 1
#rcost 3
#armorpiercing
#end

#newweapon 703
#name "Infantry Heavy Blaster"
#dmg 15
#nostr
#att -1
#def -1
#len 0
#range 60
#ammo 50
#nratt 1
#rcost 4
#armorpiercing
#end

and

#newweapon 706
#name "Ship Artillery"
#dmg 25
#nostr
#att -2
#def -2
#len 2
#range 100
#ammo 10
#nratt -2
#rcost 10
#aoe 1
#armorpiercing
#explspr 10101
#end

so maybe we should just make use of the same weapons to keep the future mod nice and tidy. If you have though about all your sounds etc I'll gladly add them to the weapons in my mod and then just change the weapons your pplz are using in the weapons from my mod (you could just copy the basic set of weapons from my mod while you are working so you have them in tehre to work on and then later we leave them out again.) I'd be willing to make the switch for you so you won't be bothered at all. If you are completely against this then so be it but I think it will make balancing the complete mod easier later.

Let me hear what you think.

[Darkwind]

I really like your nation and I think it will fit in perfectly. Your troops look great and divers. There are just a few armor and weapon thing:

I gave all ships a natural high protection (to avoid a low head protection.) I see you giva e ship prot 0 and then shipplating. I'd recommend you change that to no armor and just 20 prot.That's a good idea (I'll probably try it), but what if we were to make "helmet" armor for ships and call it Cockpit Protection, Heavy Cockpit Protection, etc.? That could work too.

All your ranged weapons have very high #att and that means troops and ships will fire AP, high damage shot AND can't miss. (att 10 means +10 precision I think) already the ranged troops I have in my mod rip through indies and yours would be even worse.
In addition to this I think the heavy lasergun might be a lil too strong on the #dmg part.
The anti-ship cannons (why anti-ship they seem to be able to kill troops just as well.. why not just cannons?) suffer from this too. I agree, I'm not sure what I was thinking when going through the laserguns. Looking back on those, wow. Compared to Ulm's (I assume), Neoclidia's guns are incredible. I'll tone down those #atts and raise the resource cost of the Heavy Lasergun. It was meant to be able to kill things quickly (in one shot I guess), but wow.

Basicly just lil changes I'd advice based upon what I've encountered so far in playtesting my own nations.

Another thing is that I think it might be best if we just use the same weapons as base weapons (not the fancy stuff like your strang claws and deadly signs) but these

-snip-

so maybe we should just make use of the same weapons to keep the future mod nice and tidy. If you have though about all your sounds etc I'll gladly add them to the weapons in my mod and then just change the weapons your pplz are using in the weapons from my mod (you could just copy the basic set of weapons from my mod while you are working so you have them in tehre to work on and then later we leave them out again.) I'd be willing to make the switch for you so you won't be bothered at all. If you are completely against this then so be it but I think it will make balancing the complete mod easier later.

Let me hear what you think.Part of the idea of Neoclidia was that they used mostly laser weapons instead of conventional weapons (a Blaster sounds a bit different). My lasers look like gifts from heavens compared to yours, though. Perhaps lasers could have higher precision vs Blasters, at the cost of damage? Either way, I might exchange the Light Lasergun for a Laser Pistol. The Anti-Ship cannons probably do need some reworking too, and I might replace them with the Ship Artillery.

[Aezeal]

That's a good idea (I'll probably try it), but what if we were to make "helmet" armor for ships and call it Cockpit Protection, Heavy Cockpit Protection, etc.? That could work too.

--> sure would work but doing it for all ships is a lot of work and different than how I started so why go there :D

on the last point I actually meant blasters to be laser myself (like in star wars) so the idea would still be identical :D

[reverend]

In an astonishing coincidence the idea for more or less the same mod (Dominions in space) came to me when I looked at a Star Wars map recently. The one on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_wars_galaxy) already looks well suited - minor modifications and it would be ready to go!

[Darkwind]

Well, I don't want my Deep Ones and Yithians going around carting Blasters, heavy Blasters, etc. Perhaps we can simply say laserguns focus on lighter but more precise damage? Also, I may as well post the Neoclidian Capital Ship up since that's basically all I did today. Keep in mind it will be summonable with a spell and is meant to be the biggest, baddest ship in the Neoclidian arsenal (as in, really awesome):

#newweapon 670
#name "Devastator Cannon"
#att 25
#nratt -4
#armornegating
#dmg 75
#aoe 2
#nostr
#rcost 20
#range 100
#ammo 13
#explspr 10102
#end

#newweapon 654
#name "Streamcannon"
#att -3
#nratt 4
#armorpiercing
#dmg 8
#nostr
#rcost 5
#range 35
#ammo 90
#flyspr 210 4
#end

#newmonster 2223
#name "Neoclidian Capital Ship"
#spr1
#spr2
#descr "The Neoclidian Capital Ship favors brute force over ancient technology's myriad powers. It cannot move close enough to a planet's surface to battle due to its sheer size; however, the Devastator Cannon deals massive amounts of damage and its Streamcannons are powerful as well. The greatest aspect of the Capital Ship, however, is its sheer bulk."
#flying
#ap 8
#mapmove 5
#size 5
#supplies -65
#flying
#hp 225
#prot 30
#str 10
#enc 1
#att 20
#def 20
#prec 14
#mr 10
#mor 17
#gcost 1500
#rcost 0
#weapon "Devastator Cannon"
#weapon "Streamcannon"
#weapon "Streamcannon"
#maxage 200
#greatleader
#amphibian
#end


I haven't worked much on changing them to forestshapes yet, and I'm not sure how to go about making it impossible for the ship to enter land. I'm thinking it will end up being some sort of nigh-invincible, low-morale flying unit meant to rain Devastator death from above. It has high gold cost due to being huge and needing lots of maintenance, and lots of supplies due to being huge and requiring lots of maintenance people. Also the mapmove is so high compared to AP points due to a "warp drive" or whatever, basically it can fly in behind enemy lines for Devastator mayhem and then fly out.

[Aezeal]

I think you should lower att value for the devastator cannon the precision of the ship isn't that bad anyway.
Also I think the gc is very very high for a none magic user. I think 500 will be more than enough.

Looks nice though..

[Darkwind]

The point of the Devastator Cannon is to be, well, devastating. Though you can still devastate something if you happen to miss, it's more likely to be a space-orphanage. Thus the precision. :)

As to the gold cost, I already provided an explanation which was, admittedly, bad. I figured that since, as has been said, ships are going to be much more powerful than the average unit, they should cost much more than the average unit over time. Gems are often not much of a deterrent to summoning a horde of something; a huge upkeep is going to be. The Capital Ship has the highest protection, HOP, and damage of pretty much everything (short of Deadly Sign-equipped Great Old Ones, and it eclipses even Ktalu in pretty much everything) in the mod. It is meant to be a nigh-unstoppable super-weapon. It comes with a cost (two, actually, the huge gem cost and the huge gold cost). I don't want the Neoclidian Capital Ship to become a unit to summon in hordes and send in 10+ packs of 3 against enemies. I want the capital ship (every capital ship really, although I guess it depends on whoever makes the capital ship) to be a single unit that could take on small armies solo and, combined with the many units it can lead, become an unstoppable fleet hellbent on the awakening of the Great Old Ones. I noticed that UlmInSpace's capital ship was recruitable (and, well, just a recruitable ship), and didn't want that to happen to the Neoclidian fleet.

On a semi-related note, I may add recuperation to the Capital Ship to represent nanites and such, and also because a Capital Ship that's lost its eyes or one of its arms isn't much of a capital ship at all.

[Aezeal]

Ulms capitol ship is the generic large spaceship they have.. the dreadnaught is the pimped version of it that needs to be summoned. It's not as powerfull a summon as Jomon or R'lyeh has but that is since I don't want ulm to be really dependant on magic, not even on earth magic.

Well your nation to do with it as you please.. i think the high gc is a bit too much but we'll see later. :D

[Darkwind]

The gold cost will only really come in as upkeep, since the Capital Ship will be a high-tier (the high-tier) summoned ship. Besides, Earth magic is meant to represent general knowledge of construction and such (in my eyes) in Dom3K. Also in my eyes, Astral is knowledge of ancient civilizations and the ability to harness their magic or technology for one's own use. With Astral magic one could build a ship from an ancient design which appeared as three ships (glamour), or a ship with a shielding device that stopped 3/4 of all attacks (ethereal). Also, of course, summoning missiles which caused matter to decay or ancient forces that, well, killed stuff to destroy your enemies. Earth would deal with more conventional building in general (pretty much every ship would require Earth), building weapons, missiles, etc.

But anyways, Neoclidia will likely have very weak recruitable ships with the rest being summoned. Its generic large ship will likely be summoned as well.

[Aezeal]

for shielding I'd use airshield (very good shielding), ethereal I used as cloaking device.
There is only one thing I'd like to see on your ship though and that is #inanimate which makes it a construct. There is a special command now to do extra damage to constructs and I think all ships should be inanimate (there is more ship than crew in the end) so we can use it.

Might be an idea for a nation (I'm thinking of a specialized fighter, with airshield and attacks with extra damamge against constructs.. as a sort of tankbuster).. I think I'll add that one in the near future. I'm also still thinkin of a tank for ulm.. I really think ulm should have a tank or something similar.. they have a lot of tech "in the air" they should certainly have tech on the ground. I'm thinking siege tanks as summons or high construction recruitables.. both would fit well with Ulm with AoE attack, and decent AP and a acceptable close range attack and highish prot, and a shapeshift to an immobile siege engine with even better AoE en damage and siege bonus, no close combat attack (well something weak to replace the feared fist) and lower prot

(I think Ulm should be king of AoE attacks for high prod, balanced with low magic... basicly as ulm always is)

[Darkwind]

If Ulm is to have tanks, I think there should be a recruitable tank as well. Not any special tank, just a tank. Good old-fashioned kinetic weaponry.

Also, I noticed you were interested in adapting the Amos's Insectoids for space (and thus Dom3K). How do you plan on doing that? Will it be essentially the same as Amos's Insectoids or differ somehow to make it a bit more original? Will it even happen? I have a few ideas myself, but I'll wait.

[Aezeal]

Yeah I have it in already :D it's expensive and if it's overpowered it'll be cap only but 100+ resource cost makes most things not be that overpowered especially if all otehr troops are high resource too)

I have a nice sprite, nice and dark like the other ulmish machines, and bulky I think I'm gonna need to put thedark ulmish powerfull steel in a description somewhere.. nice inheritance from dom 3 ages. PS I think Ulm should have highest armor in the game overalland high resource cost (not that the best flagships of the enemy can't have as good armor but I think that the other machines of nations should generally stay below Ulm's armor rating. (and ulm should have weakest magic)

[Kristoffer O]

I got a question from aezeal the other day about space terrain.

I just thought of the void battle scene. It is not impossible that JK might do a void terrain since the void battle graphic is already present.

What would you prefer with regards to population, resources and possibly site frequency in a void-space terrain?

I'm not updated on the project. Are gems used in any way?
Ship summons? Beam me up?

[Nikelaos]

KO,in regards to the void terrain i think low population and resources is fair as the word void if i am correct means a large empty space. Magic sites could include void gates (like R'lyehs) where other players may choose to ultimately sacrifice an astral mage (will go insane unlike r'lyehs i believe?) for the chance of summoning some void creatures. Sites giving astral pearls should also be abundant in the void in my opinion with perhaps the small chance of a negative site which causes soldiers to go insane.

hope that has helped, anyway this mod definately has summons if not many right now so gems are to be used, i might make some sprites for the jomon summons actually, we were also toying with the idea of giving all troops a space form which had flying (to emulate Zero Gravity) probably why aezeal asked you about a space terrain (we were using water before, no flying in water). I could say alot more but i could be here all day talking about MY ideas so i'll just wait till a question arises for now.

[TheMenacer]

There're all kinds of sites you could have in a deep space terrain. Maybe an asteroid field giving you astral/earth gems, or a ship graveyard for death gems. Deep space pirate or mercenary bases that allowed you to recruit units would fit pretty well too (as well as giving a resource boost to offset the whole "no resources in space" thing). Even things like nature or water gems via mysterious planetoids that support life somehow. Plus, how cool would it be to find a mage recruiting site along the lines of Warhammer 40k's Black Library, just an enormous secret floating library hiding in deep space waiting for someone to find it and discover its secrets.

[Aezeal]

KO: I'd like a low population, low-normal resource and normal site frequency myself.
PS if we get a void/space terrain could we get a space-form too?

For the rest I've mainly been creating nations and some spells for each nation but most of that will have to wait till a bit later.

I've already got spacepirates we can recruit but special version of them out of sites would of course be nice, but Í don't want to ask for to much.. just the space terrain and the space background would be nice :D

I personally think the floatin thing will make battle a bit chaotic so just regular battle with a nice spacy background (I've never seen a void battle) would be fine for me to start with :D

Try the mod KO.. it's in the other thread

[Kristoffer O]

I had a quick check the other day, but I didn't play more than a few minutes. I might get back to it when JK is over, to inspire him to do a void terrain :)

[Aezeal]

Have you convinced JK yet?

[Kristoffer O]

He is somewhat positive, but adding a new terrain was not as simple as I hoped. Not sure if he's positive enough to make it happen.

[Aezeal]

let him play my mod :D maybe it will help :D