Cataclysmic Dragons

[HoneyBadger]

To the midieval mind-or atleast to a poor dirt farmer in the dark ages-a dragon was a catastrophy. They could burn your village, poison your wells, do hideous things to your womenfolk-without even marrying them! No virgin ever got a dragon's dowry, and having a dragon in the area was all around bad news. The devil was a dragon, and before the devil even existed, they fought the gods of the ancient world-and come judgement day, dragons would eat the world and everyone in it. Dragons also guarded treasure, magical power, and the secret of immortality.

In recent years, in part due to a shortness of real dragons in the news, and in part because of Disney's softening influence on all things fantastical, dragons have been remade into shadows of their former selves. Even Tolkien-who tried hard to make dragons terrifying-had a hand in this, when he made his dragons talk. Suddenly, the notion of having a conversation with a dragon became popular-and that was only one step away from inviting one over for tea.

Dragons have devolved become cartoon characters, faithful steeds, noble heroes. In short, they're safe for children. No more are they the devil in disguise, or avatars of apocalypse. Dragons have become our imaginary pets.

Well, when it comes to fantasy, there's a popular view-complete with snooty elves, grumpy dwarves, and friendly dragons that's safe to read your kiddies at night-or atleast to giggle about in your college dorm room--and then there's the bad old dirty myths that had the muscle and the grit to drag the human race up through the ages, and it's those nasty, gruesome, adult-rated myths us folks in the Dominions forums are interested in. We want the real story-with teeth and claws intact!

Dragons always held pride of place in those R rated myths, and they should have that same place in Dominions 3. So that's the purpose of this thread.

Starting tonight, I'm aiming to list descriptions, graphics, and stats for a total of nine different types of dragons, which are meant to replace the ones in the game. They eventually will be balanced for CBM mod, but balance for now isn't my biggest concern-my biggest concern is to evoke an element of terror, and even dismay, to go along with the sense of wonder that dragons imbue.

These are the 13 types of dragons that I'm creating, with their stats (eventually):

Earthquake dragons: XX
Wildfire dragons: X
Flood dragons: X
Typhoon dragons:
Lightning dragons: X
Volcanic dragons: XX
Sirocco dragons: X
Plague dragons:
Avalanche dragons: X
Blight dragons:
Dust dragons: X
Tsunami dragons:
Creep dragons:

As should be clear in most cases, each type of dragon embodies a cataclysmic natural disaster-and my dragons are meant to represent the spiritual embodiment of those elemental forces. In that, they are meant to bring together somewhat Eastern and Western traditions, in that on one hand they are horrifying monsters, but on the other hand, they're regulators of their respective, destructive aspects of the natural world.

My dragons are neither purely good nor purely evil. They have the same range of intelligence, character, ambition, morality, and personality as a human being, just written large in the way myths always are.

They will still retain the ability to shapechange into a human-or near human-form, and will be available as Pretenders, but otherwise, each will be built from the ground up, to fit into the game in a slightly different way than dragons currently do.

I'm eventually planning on putting all the dragons into this post-provided they'll fit-but for now, due to the current restrictions of my computer, and my inability to add images into a post (hopefully corrected soon), I'll just add them in separate posts, starting with tonight's dragon, the Volcanic Dragon.

My dragons have the following abilities, unless otherwise noted:

Darkvision (100%), Fear (5), all melee attacks are magical (bite, claws), self-healing, no need to eat, 50% weakness to all elemental attacks except poison, which they are 50% resistant to, they can live for 15,000 years (so no aging concerns), and they are considered demons for purposes of banishment, etc. They Cause Unrest and have Patrol Bonus (+5), Pillage Bonus (+20), and Gluttony (30). They also have Upkeep as 500 gold creatures.

[HoneyBadger]

One of the rarest, and most terrible of all dragons is the volcanic dragon. Born in the heart of a caldera, these dragons regulate some of the most purely destructive forces in nature. They do not possess wings, having instead four powerfully developed claws, and dozens of almost insect-like legs. They also lack a normal breath weapon, instead spreading noxious vapors over a short distance. Surrounded by clouds of poison and waves of incredible heat, volcanic dragons are difficult to approach, let alone to destroy.

Weaknesses: slowness, lack of flight, lack of natural ranged weapons, difficulty grouping with other alied units, weakness to cold attacks and in cold weather, weak waterform, expensive.

Strengths: Great chaff-killer, good natural protection, Pretenders have access to both Earth and Fire paths, and better than average starting Dominion.

[HoneyBadger]

Volcanic Dragon attack.

[sector24]

Are you basing them off any real world mythology? It would be cool to see the Yamato-no-Orochi (Eight Branched Serpent), or a Tiamat/Marduk sirrush-type dragon.

Edit: Whoa, is that a third arm? Or perhaps the dragon has its own hornito? :eek:

[HoneyBadger]

He's actually got four arms, only 3 of which (2 at rest) I was able to fit into the picture. I decided that adding the fourth arm would have made the picture more visually-as opposed to descriptively-confusing. :) They replace his wings, and the two you can see on the first pic are actually meant to both be on the side closest. These dragons are based somewhat on real mythology, although not specific dragons as such, since these aren't meant to be unique critters.

Just for kicks, here's an attack sprite with 4 arms intact. I guess it doesn't look too bad...

[JimMorrison]

He's actually got four arms, only 3 of which (2 at rest) I was able to fit into the picture. I decided that adding the fourth arm would have made the picture more visually-as opposed to descriptively-confusing. :) They replace his wings, and the two you can see on the first pic are actually meant to both be on the side closest. These dragons are based somewhat on real mythology, although not specific dragons as such, since these aren't meant to be unique critters.

Just for kicks, here's an attack sprite with 4 arms intact. I guess it doesn't look too bad...


That one is GREAT! It would be very cool if the dragons collectively encompassed all magic paths. Like Blight would get Death + Nature, and Plague would be Death + Blood.

It would be so awesome if there were pretender specific spells, so each of these dragons could have a large scale Global or BE related to their sphere of influence, that would be unlocked for any nation with that specific pretender. Ahhhh, Dominions 12, you will be incomprehensibly awesome. ;)

Will that particular dragon have 4 hand slots? I don't think there's a 4 hand critter in the game that lacks other major slots (like this one would lack feet, and probably torso).

[Endoperez]

Even Tolkien-who tried hard to make dragons terrifying-had a hand in this, when he made his dragons talk. Suddenly, the notion of having a conversation with a dragon became popular-and that was only one step away from inviting one over for tea.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6594&stc=1&d=1218960579

[Arralen]

No. no.
You're all wrong.
Must I eat you?

And no tea with blacks. They're insidious.

[Mordici]

Well I don't think I would have believed it without the picture from Endoperez. I'am with HoneyBadger. We need some old school dragons in Dominions 3 to counteract this blasphemy!

[Sombre]

No. no.
You're all wrong.
Must I eat you?

And no tea with blacks. They're insidious.


Racist.

[Wrana]

I do not think they should be demons. Magical creatures would be better. Of course, Christian mythos includes demons in dragon form - just like "The Lion" was sometimes used as an allegory for Christ. This may be represented as either one of the Dragons be demon-type or including a demon (lord?) who can take a dragon form. And in both classic Antiquity and Oriental mythos they were powerful supernatural creatures without any hint to be demonic (actually, quite the opposite often!). And in Chinese folklore in particular, speaking with dragons is actually quite common occurence - though never safe! Herakles have spoken with one, too. And even in Russian folk tales heroes quite often speak with Zmey (there is one also where a hero listens from his hiding place as a dragon speaks with its own servants trying to learn where the hero can be) - sometimes even entering into a sort of NAP! :grin:

[Cor2]

I like your ideas very much, HB. Might i suggest that they get a higher guttony rating. 5 means that they eat enough for 2 and1/2 human troops, no? doesn't seem like that much. 50 or so would be good, if possible (i have never modded gluttony).

[Lingchih]

Hooray, Honeybadger. Dragons have needed an upgrade for so long now. I hope you can do them justice. They should not be demons though, just magical creatures.

[HoneyBadger]

Sorry, but they're definitely going to remain demons. I have my own ideas about demons too, and in Chinese myth, demons aren't always evil, either. I don't mean they're Christian demons (whatever those are supposed to be). Being demonic just means they're subject to the holy power of priests/faith, and certain anti-demon items/spells/powers, and dragons have been battling the gods since ancient Egypt, so it makes sense that many cultures would view them as demonic.

If the devs decide at some point to add a 'Dragon' tag, that still causes them to be affected by Banishment and the other holy spells, then I'll switch them to that-and maybe we can get dragon-slayer weapons and spells.

[Lingchih]

Well, give them good MR then. I would hate to see my massive Dragon fall to a banishment.

[HoneyBadger]

Yeah, they definitely will have high MR.

[Aezeal]

a "dragon" tag seems a bit useless for the most part.. if you call it a dragon it's a dragon right? I don't really see what specifically sets dragons apart from other monsters (what the tag would need to carry).

The idea of this thread is nice though. Personally I'd agree with those who say you shouldn't demon tag them (especially if they have high MR I don't even really see the point) since it doesn't really fit with Dominions 3 lore. But it's your mod and I doubt it will influence their gameplay much. Anyway nice new sprites and opponents are always good. And having dragons be a bit more divers than the dominions 3 dragons we have now is a good thing.

[Poopsi]

I dont think making them demons is a bad idea. The original "Daimon" was used by the greeks to refer to spirits/supernatural beings which, while powerful, didn´t çuite rank alongside with gods. And in dominions 3 it´s more of a brand name for extradimensional/banishables that aren´t really undead (including that wizard from Yomi--speaking about which, when I tried them I half expected them to be less high on necromancy and more on blood magic..)

And for the record, I do think that they shouldn´t have human forms. And at most they should speak only to gloat over lesser beings, and only if they parallely show themselves to be engines of destruction.

[HoneyBadger]

Here's the normal pic of the second dragon-the mighty Earthquake Dragon.
This is just the main head. It just sort of explodes from the ground. It's body can't be seen on the battlefield-just the head and neck-and it lacks claw attacks.

The Earthquake Dragon, largest and strongest of all dragons, dwells far underground. Hydralike, it's hundreds of heads push against the surface of the Earth, creating cracks through which they can feed the Earthquake Dragon's relentless hunger.

Pros: High Prot, ability to summon lesser heads in battle, regeneration (5%), extremely difficult to blind, with 14 eyes and darkvision, main head spits acid. Lesser heads have (weak) poison bite.

Cons: Immobile, no flying-must be teleported around. Immobile on the battlefield, 100% susceptibility to both fire and cold. Only the main head has a magical bite.

[HoneyBadger]

Lesser dragon head: Normal state. These are blind/eyeless, and also immobile.

[Lingchih]

Nice. Are you drawing these yourself? If so, nice job.

[HoneyBadger]

Yes, the two pictures I just posted are original (as are the volcano dragon pics) and took a little under 8 hours time to draw from scratch, combined. And all the pictures I post here will be original, unless otherwise noted.

I could average a little faster when I had access to ImageForge, but Paint's quite a bit slower, since it lacks many of the tools I like to use. By the way, they're not quite exactly the colors I wanted/chose, due to converting them from bitmaps to JPegs-it fades them out and mixes them a little bit, giving the pictures a slightly washed-out appearance. Since it seems to actually help the pictures look a little better and the colors blend together, I don't mind if they're not quite as bright as they're supposed to be.

Thanks! it's a lot of fun and a real labor of love, so I'm glad you're enjoying it too :)

[HoneyBadger]

I'd mostly want a "dragon" tag to allow different forged items, creatures, and spells, to have different effects on dragons, than say demons or undead. A "dragonslayer" sword, for instance, that did triple damage to true dragons, drakes, and wyverns, etc. would be nice to see in the game.

The main reason for the demon tag-controversial though it may be-is to allow holy magic to damage them. Even the earliest stories about the Loch Ness Monster had a bishop driving the monster away with the power of his faith, so it's got a lot of mythic precedence.

[HoneyBadger]

Sorry it took so long to answer your question, Jim, but I haven't decided what the humanlike forms of the various dragons will be, so it's possible the Volcanic Dragon human form might have 4 arm slots. As far as the dragon form itself, the answer is no, the dragons themselves are all going to be designed as SCs "out of the box" with only 2-4 Misc. slots. It would just be impossible to balance them, if they had access to more than misc slots.

As it is, I've got to be very careful, because these dragons are meant to have a much larger presence-and for a longer period of time-on the battlefield than the current dragon Pretenders.

[JimMorrison]

Ahah, makes sense actually. You've put quite a bit of thought into these I think, it looks very promising and exciting.

I can't wait to see an 8-10 player game with the rule that everyone plays a different cataclysmic dragon. :D

[HoneyBadger]

I can't wait either, I think it'll be fun!

Here's the attack sprite for the lesser dragon head:

[Poopsi]

The earthçuake dragon reminds me vaguely of the things in "Tremors"

[HoneyBadger]

It makes sense that they might, given that they're both big, earth-dwelling critters. :mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom::mushroom:

Here's the attack sprite (finally!) for the Earthquake Dragon. Took almost as long as the normal sprite in this case-about 5-6 hours-since so much content was added.

I'm not quite sure how these guys are gonna scale, against the background of a Dom3 battle, but this guy's the biggest of all the dragons, and ought to be pretty enormous-noticeably larger than the previous volcanic dragon:

[Ballbarian]

Keep it up HB.
Looking good. :)

[HoneyBadger]

Thanks! I'm working on the flood dragon as we speak.

[Rathar]

I agree that dragons in dom 3 have a deflated value from both dom 2 and "reality." I think that you will find more success in creating "balanced" new dom 3 dragon pretenders if you go for a cross creature sort of ability set, such as fear 5, awe 1 and claw/claw/bite magic attacks, and then each dragon type has their own abilities such as the iced base dragon being immune to cold, bit o extra damage to fire and a cold breath weapon.

Too much special weirdness and whatnot will end up with things that cost 300 points to be "balanced".

[HoneyBadger]

Don't worry, I'm going to spend a lot of time balancing the dragons out. For now, I just want to get the art done-the most time consuming, exacting, and brain-numbing part-but everything will follow from there.

All of the dragons will be individual and unique from one another-and as much as possible, different from other creatures in the game.

[Wrana]

Understood about what you meant by making them demons. Though you certainly remember that St.George, being slightly higher in level than the above-mentioned bishop, still used his lance, not holy words. :)
I certainly agree that "Dragon" tag would be very good. Though I think that they won't implement it until Dom4 in any case... :(
In any case more dragons would be good. Especially if they can partly fill up the niche for endgame summons for paths other than Death and Blood! ;)
I take it that you are also making them one-of-a-kind, right?

[thejeff]

I like the idea of more impressive dragons, though I don't share all your prejudices about dragons.
Don't blame Tolkien for talking dragons. He was working from mythological source. Fafnir spoke in the Norse myths. I can't remember if the dragon in Beowulf did.
Chinese versions of dragons often talked and played a very different role than medieval European ones. That's probably also where the idea of dragons taking human form comes from.

And from a literary point of view, a villain who can talk and has a personality is more interesting than a simple destructive monster, however powerful.

As for dragons being demonic, to the medieval Christian anything supernatural was either divine/angelic or demonic. If you're going to classify dragons as demons based on that, everything magical should be
demonic. Including many of the non-human races and most summons.


And despite the scoffing here, Tea with the Black Dragon is a really good book. I read it a long time ago. Highly recommended. Except maybe for those who want their dragons only as destructive forces of nature. Even the dragons get bored with that after thousands of years.

[sector24]

Just a fun fact: Fafnir could talk because he used to be human. The Andvaranaut cursed him to kill his father, banish his brother, and become the dragon.

http://www.cleandungeon.com/article.php?anum=475

[thejeff]

I thought he was a giant actually, but the concept is the same.

[Aezeal]

nice pics.. wish I had 8 hours for a picture.. would really help my dominions 3000 mod.. but sadly that ain't the case.

[HoneyBadger]

Well, those 8 hours were also spent earning a paycheck and cleaning the house :) The volcanic dragon isn't the only one with 4 arms :fight:

And Tolkien didn't invent the idea, he just popularized it, and I'm not criticising him for that. Without Tolkien, Dom3 probably wouldn't be in the same form it currently is, if it existed at all. It's other authors and artists who have gone on to take the heart and soul out of dragons, for reasons of sentimental commercial popularity.

Dragons talking is fine, dragons taking tea is fine too, but dragons as toothless cartoons or melodramatic soap opera stars or even beasts of burden, doesn't sit right with me at all.

By the way, this thread in no way is intended-or should be taken-as a criticism of the Devs, Dom3, or even the way dragons themselves are portrayed in the game. There's about a million different areas of the game that took a great deal of attention to get right, and if Dom 3 had been all about dragons, I know we would have had some truly spectacular examples.

I'm just working on a very narrow focus here, which they didn't have the great luxury of taking, and I wouldn't be able to do that, if all the other elements in the game hadn't come together so well.

So thanks, as always, Kristoffer and Johan, for making this all possible.

[Aezeal]

my paycheck sadly includes activities that are not compatible with making art or drawings etc.. if I could make art or drawings in the first place that is.

If this is done you can always create a dom 3000 nation :D.. if the art is done and you make a thread like the gazillion you already made with general ideas and stats I'd make a .dm file out of it in notime :D

[Nikelaos]

Very nice job for paint, I know full well how difficult making images in paint is and you seem to have worked very hard.

Btw would you like for me to touch them up a bit in a more effective tool, i ain't got nothing to do and i really do have the urge to help.

oh and aezeal i wouldn't mind making pics for your dominions 3000 mod.

[HoneyBadger]

That's ok. I'm offering them as-is. If you want to modify them for your own uses, though, you're welcome to, as long as you give me credit. As much as I may grumble about it, part of this is that I'm doing it with the most basic Paint program out there, and hopefully that will serve as an inspiration to others, to do their own art, since you don't need a big, expensive program to work with Dom 3.

Also, whatever very small talent I might have as an artist is backed up by about %99.999 perspiration. It's really just guess work, especially with a mouse, which is just about the hardest tool to draw with ever invented-Jackson Pollock never had it so bad-a lot of editing, a lot of doing the same thing over and over again, and a lot of working pixel by pixel on a canvas that's 16384 pixels big, or bigger. Anybody can do this, if you're willing to put in the time and effort to do it over and over and over again, until it more or less falls into place.

Alternatively, it *doesn't* fall into place, you say "to hell with it" and offer it anyway, which also happens. And if it looks too goofy to stand, maybe you go back to it in a month or two.

[JimMorrison]

Dragons talking is fine, dragons taking tea is fine too, but dragons as toothless cartoons or melodramatic soap opera stars or even beasts of burden, doesn't sit right with me at all.


Puff hater! :(

[Nikelaos]

heh lol, just keep up the hard work, you may also wanna download paint.net, it's better than MS paint if not quite photoshop and it's completely free.

[sector24]

If you're going to spend a lot of time on this you should consider drawing it on paper and scanning it. I have a cheap "all in one" printer/scanner/fax and trust me it's faster to draw it and then scan it then to go pixel by pixel. That's how I got my avatar. Of course you might want to use colored pencils. :)

[HoneyBadger]

Why Jim! I *love* Vietnamese era AC-47 gunships!

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-air-support/vietnam/spooky-puff.htm

Or were you referring to marijuana? In which case, I would have to deny any influence hallucinogenics have had on my artwork. :P

Oh and I'm unable, for work reasons, to download anything, nor do I have a scanner. So those aren't options.

[HoneyBadger]

Ok, the flood dragon is finally done. Roughly 12 hours work :)

Lacking wings, a breath weapon, and the sheer physical power of some of his larger brethren, the flood dragon is nonetheless an extremely dangerous foe. Able to fight well in the water, with his two short but powerful front claws, and vicious, highly toxic bite, the flood dragon comes into his own on land, where he can make good use of his amazing speed, and incredibly long, poison-spined tail--whipping it around in all directions to poison or simply decapitate his foes.

Advantages: Fully amphibious, able to attack multiple opponents in the water or on land, deadly poison bite-on land has a poison/magical area 2 attack, and 24 combat speed. Decent Prot. Great poison/magical chaff-killing weapon.
Disadvantages: Can only use tail on land, and can't use claws on land. Extra vulnerability to fire and cold, no real ranged attack. Move is only 1 (outside of combat) on land, 2 in water. Slow in water-Combat movement is only 12 in water.

[Ballbarian]

Looks nice HB, but he looks much friendlier than I would have expected. :)
Is he smiling?

[HoneyBadger]

Well...the style of dragon for the flood dragon was heavily influenced by 15th century Chinese/Japanese art, and dragons in those always have that kind of "smiley" look to them, unless their mouths are covered by mustaches. So I can see where you get that he's smiling at you, but he's really just smiling because he's found his dinner, and you're it

:burger:

[JimMorrison]

Hmmmm, he IS kind of cute. :p

I want one papa, can I keep it?

;)

[HoneyBadger]

*sigh* My wife says he's cute, too...

Am I the only one who can see the crazed look in his eyes?

He would bite you in half, people! drink your blood! gnaw your bones! fetch your slippers! do your laundry! angrily! He's got big bitey fangs and huge, vicious teeth!

[Ballbarian]

:lol

Kinda like the bunny in the classic Monty Python movie. ;)

Edit:
Thanks HB!
You made my night. :)

[HoneyBadger]

It's the big eyes, isn't it? You're all suckers for a pair of big wet eyes. Well, you know what else has big wet eyes and suckers?

[JimMorrison]

Well, that's no ordinary dragon!

That's the most foul, cruel, and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on!

:shock:


(edit)

Well okay, constructive! If you move the eyes up a bit, they will look creepier. And just a bit of downturned line at the end of the mouth would give him a sinister sneer instead of the faux-smile. :p The backward turned legs are kind of disturbing already, too. :o

[Poopsi]

It looks cute. And for some reason makes me think of Terry Pratchett's swamp dragons....

[HoneyBadger]

Ok, here's a second draft for comparison, taking Jims advice and adding a few touches of my own.

Flood Dragon-now with more evil!:

[JimMorrison]

A little bit better, but it still doesn't have that "oomph" that the other 2 do.

I just got a flash of inspiration from comparing both versions though - if he had 4 eyes - 2 where you moved them, and 2 where they started, he would begin to develop a really horrifying visage.

And actually, if he were just a slightly darker tint, he'd look less "Puffy", ironically. ;)

[Poopsi]

how about something on these lines?

http://www.geocities.com/agudelo_w/Kronosaurus.jpg

[HoneyBadger]

Well, I don't want him to have 4 eyes. But I'll see what I can do about roughing him up. I'd really like to explore colors other than mud, blood, and crud, though...:P

[JimMorrison]

Well, I don't want him to have 4 eyes. But I'll see what I can do about roughing him up. I'd really like to explore colors other than mud, blood, and crud, though...:P

Absolutely! But fluorescent green is a bit much somehow. And 4 eyes would be sweet. :p

[HoneyBadger]

Sorry Jim, I like extra body parts as much as the next mutant, but four eyes would be a handicap from a physiological/environmental standpoint, since the extra set would have to go behind the first set. The Earth Dragon can have multiple eyes, because his eyes are on the side of his wide, massive head, rather than directly in front, so that works out.

I am making a conscious effort that each dragon be in some way abnormal-extra limbs, heads, eyes, etc. In the Flood Dragon's case, he's actually got less-2 limbs instead of four. That, and he's part caiman, frog, carp, snake, salamander, chamelion, dog, and deer.

Ok, I completely redid the head, and also did extensive detail-work on the scales, so hopefully it'll make a difference. And there's a little bit less neon green, just for you Jim :P

Here's the latest and greatest incarnation, now with 25% less cuteness!:

[HoneyBadger]

Ok, I did one more little touch-up. His leg was bothering me, so I extended it out a bit and played around with the muscle structure, so hopefully this version will look a little better:

[Ballbarian]

I really like it, but I can't get past the eyes. (Just my opinion HB, please don't take offense. Everybody has different tastes and beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that. :) )

When I viewed your last image, I noticed a darkened section lower on the head and immediately pictured the following very cliche variation:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6614&stc=1&d=1219293922

(I certainly don't expect you to use it, I just wanted to share it with you.)

Keep up the good work!

[HoneyBadger]

That's not bad, Ballbarian, and it gave me an idea.
I'd have set his eyes lower, but they're meant to rise above the water he'd be floating in. I'm not handcuffing myself with biology, but I am giving quite a bit of thought to the environment these dragons actually live in, and that'll affect the way they look, to a point.

Here's the latest version.
It's cheap, but it works, and it kinda ties the colors together:

[Herode]

Yep, this one is slightly better. More... hmmm... not really impressive but... how would I say this... odd and ugly :p

[HoneyBadger]

Well, I can live with odd and ugly. Impressive will hopefully arrive with the attack sprite, but on this one I was asking for a lot, and I think I got most of what I wanted from the pic. That I feel he fits in with the rest of the Dom3 sprites well enough that people won't be embarassed about using him in a real game was the real goal, in any case.

[Aezeal]

Hey, I'm in need for a chinese/japanese looking dragon (which will actualy NEED to be a demon too)... any chance one of the dragons you are gonna make will fit to this? (so I can steal it)?

I intend to use it as a high level summon for Jomon in dominions 3000

[Horst F. JENS]

Hi HoneyBadger,
my admiration for your project.
do you plan to give the dragons automatical cast spells (like earthqake) at the begin of the battle ?
Or does this feature only work with items?

[HoneyBadger]

Some of them will have special abilities-and if I can with our current mod tools, this may include spells-but casting Earthquake at the beginning of combat would be too much of a balance issue with the already powerful Earthquake Dragon-these guys *will* get spell paths, like Earth/Fire/Nature/Death, etc. So they can cast these kinds of spells, but like normal casters would do. Mostly, they'll get 1 path, with an 80 to 125point cost for additional paths. The Earthquake Dragon will probably be on the low, 80 point side, since he pretty much needs Astral if you want to move him anywhere. Volcanic Dragon, on the other hand, will have access to both Fire and Earth, but other paths will cost 125-possibly even 150.

If I give them human forms-and I probably will-then they'll also lose 2 in all paths, in dragon form, but be able to kit out with full slots.

[HoneyBadger]

Aezeal, I may at some point do some unique dragons-one of which will be 'The Oily Dragon'-an Asian dragon/demon ('Big Trouble in Little China 'reference). It's going to be some time until that happens, though, but if/when I do, you're welcome to use it.

[JimMorrison]

The new version of Flood is pretty creepy, I like it. He has much more of a freaky fishy ugliness to him now. No more "Puff". :p

[Ballbarian]

That is much better HB. :)

[HoneyBadger]

Thanks everybody for the great advice. Without you egging me on, It wouldn't have come out as good as it did. I'm not sure when the next dragon will come out, but I've got some ideas for the Sirocco, so that may be next.

[HoneyBadger]

Since the Flood Dragon required such a painful process to look right ("right" in this case meaning "weird and ugly"), I decided to make the Sirocco Dragon look as mad, bad, and dangerous to know as possible, from the start.

First of all, he doesn't have any eyes, instead employing massive heat-sinks (they also detect magic, so undead and animated creatures aren't safe) to detect his prey. So he's blind-which as I understand it, is an advantage over Darkvision. The sensitive heat-sinks are covered by a massive skull of exposed bone. He's not as physically powerful as some of the other dragons, but he has quite a few advantages: First of all, he's got access to both Air and Fire paths. Other paths cost 125 (25 less than the Volcanic Dragon). In addition to that, he's got Stealth (0) and is a good (better than the average dragon, anyway) undead leader. His breath attack doesn't do a lot of damage, but has good range and area, and causes Decay. His bite also causes Decay. Significantly, he'll have a Forestform where he loses his Stealth but his bite becomes Lifedraining and his Fear goes up to 10. He's got full Flying and the ability to summon Long Dead in battle-the bodies of those who have been consumed by the sands will rise up and fight for him-but he also loses this in the Forest. Finally, he'll have 3 misc slots (Dragon average is 2)-so as you can imagine, with dragons healing themselves, he can make a pretty mean assassin, with the right gear.

His disadvantages include: a complete inability to enter the water (even if you give him an item of water-breathing, he has an extremely weak, immobile waterform), and a very strong weakness to water/ice spells (200%). Also, he consumes much more than the average Dragon (probably Gluttony 100). He's also got a particularly weak Dominion (1 instead of Dragon average 2), and slightly lower than dragon-average MR-even lower in Forests.

Presenting the new Sirocco dragon!:

[Gregstrom]

One thing with a weak, immobile waterform - if you accidentally put him in the water you won't be able to get him out again.

[HoneyBadger]

Next up is the Avalanche Dragon. Feared by men and jotuns alike, the massive Avalanche Dragon is but an enormous Wyrm, without limbs or wings. Crushing huge trees in it's path to splinters, and freezing all around it, this dragon makes it's home in the vast northern glaciers, which it burrows into, creating enormous tunnels in the diamond-hard ice like a common worm might burrow into an apple.

Although quite tough and strong, the Avalanche Dragon lacks the combat abilities of many of it's brethren. As a size 6 trampler, it's fine against small troops, and it's bone-crushing bite is indeed something to fear, but at first glance, it's not the most versatile or powerful of the dragon breeds. It does have a very good cold aura, and it gains Protection in cold areas, but it's not much better than a Behemoth in warm lands, and it's slow movement (1) makes it harder to use as an SC. It also lacks magical diversity, having only Water, and all other paths at 125.
It's true might lies in two special abilities that it possesses: First of all, it has a devastating breath weapon-good range, good area, good damage, and numbness. Secondly, it has the ability to lay eggs.

These eggs are it's best feature: They have Fear (0), a cold aura, a lot of hitpoints, and also gain Prot. in cold. And they can hatch. Their Secondform-if the eggform is destroyed-is that of a ravenous Icewyrm:
size 3, Fear (2) 2 magical bites per round, cold aura, berserk, and blind. The Icewyrms will only remain for a single battle, but enough of them together can do a lot of damage, and even a single one can be difficult to take down.

[HoneyBadger]

That's the idea, if you accidentally put him in the water, you need to teleport him to get him out again. In the meantime, it's quite easy for an enemy to destroy him, since he'll be defenseless. It's a much-needed handicap.

[Gregstrom]

Would copystatting a vampire make it impossible for the dragon to enter the water even with weter breathing?

[Skirmisher]

I just wanted to chime in and say great work! This looks real interesting. Will these dragons be availible as strickly pretenders, or commanders? or both?

Somebody had mentioned somewhere that dragons were lacking ,this would seem to adress that directly.

[HoneyBadger]

They'll mainly be available as Pretenders, although they could also be Independents, and ofcourse they'll be Wishable.

Thanks for the compliment! It keeps me going :)

I have no idea, Gregstrom...if I could make the Sirocco unable to enter the water, I would.

Next up will be the Dust Dragon-I've got a good start on it, but I doubt I'll get it done tonight. The only reason I posted the Avalanche is because of how simple it was to color, but the Dust will be a lot more complex.

[llamabeast]

HB - you should use GIMP instead of Paint. It's also free, and vastly, vastly superior. Just type it in Google and you can find it straight away.

I don't know how you have the patience to spend more than a few minutes using Paint. I would cry.

[Aezeal]

HB can't DL or something due to it being his works computer or something.. I guess that goes for gimp too.

looking very good for paint though. Does that mean you have to draw pixel by pixel?

[HoneyBadger]

I can't download Gimp, and when I could, it didn't work for me. I prefer ImageForge-also free, also vastly superior.

And yes, pixel by pixel by ever-lovin' pixel... :)

[Aezeal]

I'm almost tempted to start a thread asking for donations so you can get a comp of your own on which you CAN DL..

[HoneyBadger]

lol I've got 500$ saved, which is plenty for a basic computer, I'm just trying to save up for a really good one.

[Darkwind]

I just realized I haven't replied in this thread. But anyways, these dragons look (and sound) really awesome. I'm impressed that you drew them pixel by pixel; I'm not anywhere near patient enough to do that. :up:

[Foodstamp]

lol I've got 500$ saved, which is plenty for a basic computer, I'm just trying to save up for a really good one.

www.pricewatch.com !

[HoneyBadger]

Thanks Foodstamp :) I have a guy who's going to build me one from scratch for just the cost of parts, and he's able to get good parts for cheap, but I want to be able to hand him around $2000, so he can have a lot of fun.

[HoneyBadger]

And honestly, this is a lot of fun for me. I don't mind working with Paint. It's slow-going, but as long as the work is good work, and looks right, and I get lots of good feedback (both positive and critical), I'm happy.

So no worries!

[HoneyBadger]

The next dragon is the implacable Dust Dragon. Not the largest or the strongest of dragons, the Dust Dragon remains one of the most terrifying. Embodying the purest power of entropy, a province where a Dust Dragon has made it's home is truly cursed. The Dust Dragon lacks a breath weapon or claws, but has full flying, and it's three eel-like heads do Lifedraining damage. Creatures striking her take damage. She also has Fear (10) and is a superior Undead Leader. The Dust Dragon also grows considerably stronger in darkness, has greater than normal Pillage bonus, and causes greater than normal Unrest. Like the Sirocco Dragon, the Dust Dragon causes greater Death in provinces she's in, and consumes even more supplies (Gluttony 200) The Dust Dragon is 50% immune to both Cold and Fire, but is 150% vulnerable to Shock damage. She's somewhat slow moving for a flyer, at only 2 provinces per turn. She also only has 1 misc slot, and is cold-blooded, unlike many other dragons. She has an extremely weak Forestform (comparable to the Sirocco and water), but can enter the water normally, if provided a water breathing item.

Presenting the sinister Dust Dragon!:

[HoneyBadger]

Ok, after some consideration, I changed the angles of her heads around a bit, so here's a second version-let me know which one you like best?:

[Tifone]

The second one. The 3rd head of the first version seems to me having a little weird angle.

BTW, I didn't find the time yet to say to you that you're really doing a good job ;)

If you are going to put them in a mod, I think they would fit perfectly as late-game unique summons - some kind of elemental royalty of the natural disasters ^_^ but requiring different paths from one to another... just my thought of course

Good job again. :up: Peace

[Aezeal]

dustdragon looks nice.. just doesn't look like a dragon of dust. more like a hydra of shadow.. now since you just call all these large monsters dragon while they are not classic dragons that hydra part isn't that important I'd say.. but the dust part... doesn't sound very fearsome either :D

[llamabeast]

Okay, how about one of us puts ImageForge and GIMP on a CD and posts it to you?

Why is it you're unable to download, incidentally?

[llamabeast]

Dust dragon will make your apartment dusty!!11!

[Aezeal]

yeah avalanche and flood etc are dangerous.. dust... less so

[Ballbarian]

I have dust dragons in my house. That is why I refuse to clean under the bed.

[Aezeal]

ah if they fit under the bed they must be size 1, max size 2 :D

[HoneyBadger]

This isn't the kind of dust you vaccuum up with your Hoover, this is 'dust' as in "it hasn't rained in six years or so". It's 'dust' as in "our farm just blew away, and there's a tornado headed in our direction".

This is the kind of dust I'm talking about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_bowl

It's also silt and smog, pollution and dessication-and especially drought.

And for that matter-imagine if you didn't dust your house for a few decades. Eventually, it's gonna get pretty bad in there. :)

I thought about naming her a "drought dragon", but I thought "dust" sounded better. I guess I might be convinced to change it...

Actually, Aezeal, I based the 'Dust Dragon' on Ladon-a very traditional Greek dragon. 3 heads seemed more balanceable than a hundred.

Oh and did I mention I can't use CDs either? Thanks though!

[Aezeal]

it looks so dark.. isn't a nice sandy brown better ?

[HoneyBadger]

It won't look as dark against a battlefield.

Also, you guys don't actually get to see the *exact* graphic, because I'm translating them into .JPegs so they'll post. The real graphic is somewhat more colorful-so this version is greyer than intended. I'd need the max space allowed for these kinds of graphics raised to around 50-60 whatevers (it's currently about 42 whatevers) to post them as they really are, in glorious 24 bit .BMaps

[HoneyBadger]

The next dragon up is the ferocious Lightning Dragon. The lightning dragon holds domain over both earth and sky. He's (technically "they're", but the dragon is male) able to use his twin breath weapons while on the ground (shapechange). He's capable of two bite attacks per round, as well as two deadly lightning ranged attacks (ground form only), but has no claw attacks. In the air (flying form), he loses his breath weapons, but can generate a powerful field of electricity (spring hawk power). Can also enter the water in ground form.

Advantages: can use 2 breath weapons at a time, has access to both Earth and Air paths (150 cost for other paths), versatile-can be a flyer, an artillery unit, and even enter the water as an (poor) amphibian. Storm-Immune, and gains power during storms. 200% lightning resistance.

Disadvantages: Exceptionally low Dominion (1), High cost. Possesses only 1 slot.
Gets fatigued much faster than other dragons.

[Nikelaos]

hmm able to go in water, i don't think that really mixes since water being a good conductor of elctricity would either have a negative effect on him or make him a waterborne weapon of battlefield wide electrical death.

[HoneyBadger]

It does have a negative effect on him, which is why he's a *poor* amphibian :) He also loses his breath weapons in the water, and ofcourse can't fly, so all the electricity is contained inside his well-insulated hide. He's definitely at his weakest in the water.

[HoneyBadger]

I'll probably be balancing these guys out for a while though. Nothing's completely set in stone. For instance, I raised the base Gluttony for dragons to 30, based on Cor2's suggestion. So any advice/thoughts are always welcome.

[HoneyBadger]

The most common-and therefore one of the most infamous-of the dragon breeds is the Wildfire Dragon. Within it's three jewel-like eyes blaze hypnotic fires of hatred for all living things. Scarlet-winged and able to breathe fire, the Wildfire Dragon's talent for destruction is legendary.

Advantages: Heat Aura, greater than normal Pillage bonus (50), Fire resistance
(250%), Shock resistance (100%).
Disadvantages: Consumes greater than normal supplies (Gluttony 60), 100% susceptibility to Water/Ice, Berserk (0), not the most melee oriented of the dragon breeds.

[HoneyBadger]

I got caught by the editing timer, so to continue...

The Wildfire Dragon is a female, she's a fast flyer (at 3 provinces per turn) with an excellent breath weapon, and while she starts with only the Fire path, she gets the advantage of other paths being the least expensive for her (at 75 for new paths) of all dragon breeds.

She also has the disadvantage of having a weak starting Dominion, at 1, and won't be able to enter the water.

[Gregstrom]

hmm able to go in water, i don't think that really mixes since water being a good conductor of elctricity would either have a negative effect on him or make him a waterborne weapon of battlefield wide electrical death.

Electric eels can go underwater without ill effect. Speaking of which, I think an AOE 1+ electric melee attack would be sort of appropriate underwater.

[HoneyBadger]

I'm considering something along those lines, but I haven't made up my mind yet.

It's going to depend on how everything ends up balancing out, and I won't be starting that until all of the graphics are done--or atleast one for each dragon breed.

[Skirmisher]

Just bumping this out of the pit of lost threads.

[HoneyBadger]

Thanks! I'll get back to it one of these days. I'm just waiting for inspiration-I want each dragon type to be recogniseably unique.

Next up with very likely be the Tsunami Dragon.

[Nikelaos]

hmm able to go in water, i don't think that really mixes since water being a good conductor of elctricity would either have a negative effect on him or make him a waterborne weapon of battlefield wide electrical death.

Electric eels can go underwater without ill effect. Speaking of which, I think an AOE 1+ electric melee attack would be sort of appropriate underwater.

yeah and they're electrical death machines for they're size, now multiply that by the size of a dragon - battlefeild wide bodypoping contest.

[Skirmisher]

How's this project doing?

Any chance it will be out by next patch? :cool:

::ham::house::potion::target::computer::

[KissBlade]

Just saw this idea bumped and I'd like to chime my support. Check out Dragons of the Sixth World or something (forgot the exact name but a source book for Shadowrun.) Now THOSE are DRAGONS. Elemental forces of magic/nature that you just don't **** with. None of this "get a chest wound off a lance and relegated to forge/research" bs.

[Aezeal]

If honey would like a few shortcuts (assuming graphs are the bottle neck) he can use my (originally stolen) graphs of the dragon nation mod (and maybe resize them if he still insists on even huger dragons and recolor and other adjustments are just as possible of course. It's probably not the way he wants to go but he could always replace them later.

Kissblade.. check out the ancient dragon summons I have in my dragons mod and see how impressive you think they are (they where meant to be impressive :D) Not much commanders would survive an assassination by my assassin summon (well he's just mean and probably assassinations with him are a waste of time since he could hurt whole armies bad, but it's thematic) or my dragon of light.. some of the elder dragons are nasty too :D...

[Gandalf Parker]

Sounds worthy of being an opponent in an MP game.
Do they AI well?

[rdonj]

They probably would have made a good AI nation in the original version. If the AI knew how to build armies, anyway. Since then they've been nerfed pretty hard and the AI would probably have a pretty hard time being effective with them. The dragons Aezeal was referring to are all summons, with pretty hefty gem and research requirements.

For example the summoned assassin he was talking about requires alteration 6, 50 or so death gems and I think death 3 or 4 to summon. It also has ethereality, 100 or so hp and can natively cast soul vortex.

[Aezeal]

Well it's pretty easy to make the nation better for AI, just lower the cost of the recruitables by about 20 gc and 10 rec each :D the AI will send hordes of pretty strong, high HP and 2 attack troops your way then(would work for any nation though, but for these especiallY) Ow and set price for the wyrmlings too 999 so they don't get recruited. The AI probably won't use the summons very well but... the recruits and commanders are pretty decent in their own right. Try the nation Gandalf :D (Í've tried to balance it for MP so it's weaker since very strong troops and commanders are more easily exploited by human players, especially the once they get to the summons I made with all sorts of magic, abilities and resistances)... of course it would only take a few letters/numbers in the .dm file to make all summons recruitable too... which would severly overpower the nation :D

Anyway HOney could use my (stolen) graphs as temp replacements and update the mod later on. There are other endgame summons mods though (not played them... I never get to end game summoning.. to be honest I've never seen any of the angels, devils nearly only on enemies in MP and one SP game (demon monkeys) etc.

[MaxWilson]

Hmmmm. Maybe I will try your nations with the summons as recruitables--I need a good opponent for an Ashdod + LA C'tis combo I am going to try.

-Max

[Aezeal]

Seriously.. start with the nation with lower cost then.. those summons will kill you if you encounter them en masse in year one - two.

Anyway I'd be glad if you like the mod but let's discuss it in it's own thread and wait for Honey to reply to the requests made in here.

[Sombre]

Why is it this was never moved to the maps and mods subforum? It's a mod right? (In progress, presumably)

[lch]

moved.

[Aezeal]

ow god ich can move threads.. the horror...

anyway having looked through the thread again I'm thinking the dragons are nice-ish but the coloring... I know it's sort of traditional for water (flood?) dragons to be blue but some dark blue might fit him better, might be scarier too. The Sirrocco dragon could be darker IMHO and the avalanche dragon (use that blue on the flood dragon) might need to be white/light blueish.. I know it's not terrible original but face it hunters need to blend in the environment. a blue dragon in white snowy regions might not catch much. Anyway just a thought. I still think your dustdragon should be a ghost/wraith/darkness/shadow dragon (really DUST dragon... no your posts since have not convinced me :))

anyway point of my post mostly was this: do plz continue this project (and your nation for dom 3 K.)

[Mordici]

Wow, this is an amazing project. Thanks HB for all the work you are doing on this!!!

[HoneyBadger]

You're welcome! thanks for the interest!

I'll be redoing the artwork on these guys...well, someday. I don't know when. The holidays have been *way* more draining than I expected them to be, and I'm just really low on energy. Plus, I've been getting back into Dwarf Fortress more, since I needed a break from Dom3, but I still don't have a good computer to run either game on. But, I'll keep at it.

[Skirmisher]

Bump

[Aezeal]

yeah them holidays must have been REALLY draining, maybe he lives in a drain 3 dominion though.

[HoneyBadger]

Based on the recently discovered pliosaur dubbed "Predator X".

This critter makes Jaws look like a guppy.

After having seen a show about this awesome monster, I couldn't help but become fascinated with how closely this beasty resembles a real actual sea dragon. This thing had the most powerful jaws in all the animal kingdom, either living or dead. Jaws that were atleast 10 times as powerful as anything alive today, and up to 4 times as powerful as a Tyrannosaurus Rex. Jaws that could crush a car. It was an extremely fast, powerful swimmer, and grew to a length of 50 feet and a weight of 100,000lbs, with all the most terrifying qualities of a great white shark and a saltwater crocodile.


So, my first thought ofcourse was "how can I make it even nastier?"
Well, it's going to be immortal, and it will have an undead (fossil) deathform.

8810

I attempted to make him a little more dragonish (not that she needed much), and also added humps after realizing that we lack a real Loch Ness Monster for the game.

By the way, here's an updated list of the paths for each dragon type:

Earthquake dragons: Earth
Wildfire dragons: Fire, Air
Flood dragons: Water, Earth
Typhoon dragons: Water, Death
Lightning dragons: Earth, Air
Volcanic dragons: Earth, Fire
Sirocco dragons: Air, Fire
Plague dragons: Air, Death
Avalanche dragons: Water
Blight dragons: Nature, Blood
Dust dragons: Death
Tsunami dragons: Water, Blood
Creep dragons: Nature

The Tsunami dragon will be up next. It will have the ability to generate it's own bloodslaves which, as an entirely aquatic Pretender, should make it a rather interesting option.

[HoneyBadger]

Here's the attack sprite :

8811

Enjoy!

[Swan]

Hmmm, looks like a wolf to me.
Maybe lees bulky teeth?

[HoneyBadger]

Thanks for your input, Swan.

The critter this dragon was based on had the biggest, bulkiest teeth of any predator that ever lived. They make even Megalodon's teeth look pitiful in comparison. I admit there is a certain "wolfishness" to the sprite, but I'm fine with that, and happy overall with the sprite.

[Amonchakad]

I just read the whole thread, that's some GREAT artwork you got there,HB:D Can't wait to see them in-game!

Also I must agree with Swan, the attack sprite's head looks like some kind of dog...the lower jaw just looks way too extended.Beside that,wonderful:)

[Swan]

mmh, maybe bulky is not the right word...
I meant that imo they teeth(and mouth) could look better longer and thiner.
I cutted the head and embigged the teeth, maybe lower jaw should/could be cutted a little more, even if the snake/shark mix seems good to me(well, ofc it does, or i would'nt have stopped to work on it)

[Burnsaber]

This is exactly the reason why I don't show my attack sprites in my preview pics. Attack sprites are only visible for 0,5 seconds at a time. For someone to notice a flaw in them, they'd have to *stare* at the unit while it attacks, for several times, before actually taking notice. This very rarely happens (most players have a lot more to think about in battle than the quality of the attack sprites). Sometimes the player might pause the battle while the attack sprite is showing, but that's not a major corcern.

It's simply enough if the attack sprite shows aggressive movement and doesn't have any glitches (like disappearing equipment), that is all. For a attack sprite, that sprite is more than enough. Twiddling with it would be a waste of time (IMHO), no ones going to notice minor flaws in the attack sprite.

Prioritizing your work effort into where people actually notice it allows for faster production rate just in general, saves time.

[Swan]

Well ofc i would have said the same on normal pic, but Honey didn't post it, the idea is the same.

[HoneyBadger]

Swan, it's a nice pic, but the jaws aren't nearly long enough. This thing (the original) had a 10 foot long head, small brain (so most of that 10 feet was jaw), and looked like a cayman, as much as anything this side of Jacques Cousteau's personal Hell.

[Swan]

Ah, then i fear the wolfiness is a necessary evil.