New nation : Shangri La, Hidden City of the Secret Masters

[Nounours]

At the moment, I'm modding an EA Nation, vaguely based on tibetan myth and history. The nation is the hidden city of Shangri La, ruled by powerful mage-priests who seek spiritual ascension and enlightenment.

SHANGRI LA, HIDDEN CITY OF THE SECRET MASTERS

Early Era

Edited: 10th sept. 2008


For the moment being, I've modded troops and a commanders for MA.

Done:

Troops:
-Bhödpa spearman, archer, mountaineer (light infantry)
-Bhödpa yack rider (light cavalry)
-Shangrilan archer and heavy infantry, Dmag-Dar (standard bearer) & Dmag Hrag (veteran soldier).
-Light Bhödpa Cavalry & heavy Shangrilan Rta Pa Cavalry.
-Mi Gö and Mi Gö hunters (Mi Gö are ape-like intelligent creatures, related to yetis. And yes, there are yetis :D)...

Sacred :
-Guardian of the Hidden Valley
-Mi Dred (sacred Mi Gö warriors armed with club made of enchanted ice)

Commanders:
-Bhödpa scout
-Bhödpa sde pa (clan chief)
-Shangrilan dmag dpon (officer) and rje (king)
-Shangrilan monk (trapa)
-Mages: Ngagspa (sorcerers who dabble in dark magics), Demon-hunters (tibetan stories and legends seems to be full of demons!) and ragyapa (priests charged with practicing funerals by cutting corpses to small pieces and feeding them to vultures and other birds of prey).
-Red-Hat lamas
-Yellow-Hat lamas
-Black-Hat lamas
-Hidden Masters (powerful mages and occult masters of Shangri La)

-Yetis (national summons in EA & MA), Theurang, Srin Po, Bdud and Btsan demons & Lha spirits (recruitable in EA, summons in MA). Gongpo, rgyal po & Srin po'i rgyal po ("cannibal demon king") in EA.

- more balanced units : No more crossbowman or medium infantry in MA, several units have now broadsword instead of falchion. Mages less powerful and more expensive. Shangrilan troops (archers, infantry &cavalry) slightly more expensive. Removed dörje (powerful magic weapon that cast lightning) from lamas, now reserved for Hidden Masters. Lamas from all orders now have phurba (magical daggers used against demons) instead. Sacred more expensive (60/70 gp instead of 40).


Currently doing:

- graphics for EA
- some heroes (EA and MA)
- balancing

To do:

- LA Shangri La !!!?
- national spells
- Klu (water naga-like spirits)
- more graphics

[HoneyBadger]

Excellent and awesome!-I've been hoping for a Tibetan nation for some time now. I'll see what I can find out for you (and incase anyone was wondering-like I was-if the 'Mi Go' mentioned have anything to do with Lovecraft's version, he might have borrowed the name, but they're another word for Yeti.)

By the way, I don't know if you intended it, but "Shambhala" is the name for the mystical kingdom from which Shangra-La was derived (in James Hilton's novel "Lost Horizon").

[HoneyBadger]

Here's a page on interesting Tibetan myths:

http://www.iras.ucalgary.ca/~volk/sylvia/Tib.htm

and two images of Lha:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i.pbase.com/u40/potala/large/25940863.71a.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.pbase.com/potala/image/25940863&h=800&w=628&sz=107&hl=en&start=4&usg=__7PjyCAVHcxu7HjMh4rkSJ3HZli4=&tbnid=2_CA7cScE0mN2M:&tbnh=143&tbnw=112&prev=/images%3Fq%3DLha%2BTibet%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den

http://www.tharlam.org/Documents/whiteTara.jpg

Here's a page of Tibetan icons of various guardian "demons":

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://mszendo.org/Hayagriva,%252018th%2520century%2520mongolia,%2520 Jacpues%2520Marchais%2520Museum%2520of%2520Tibetan %2520Art.jpg&imgrefurl=http://mszendo.org/wrathful_deities.htm&h=490&w=352&sz=24&hl=en&start=5&usg=__sZlgOZuQ_1ULuvMjrgBlrbwcaZU=&tbnid=QQ4Mgs1q1jtX3M:&tbnh=130&tbnw=93&prev=/images%3Fq%3DTibetan%2Bdemons%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den

Lhas are just the name for gods/spirits. There are various types:
According to Encyclopedia Mythica:

Thab-Lha is a Tibetan Bon hearth-god that punishes those who desecrate his sacred fires. He's pictured as a red figure with a snake in his hand.

Nang-Lha is a house god who's portrayed as a man with the head of a pig. People offer him beverages.

I couldn't find anything on dre, other than it's a countryside demon that drives away horses, or anything specific about 'gnod-sbyin', but the Bon Tibetan religion has quite a few interesting demons, from the Citipati (graveyard demons depicted as dancing skeletons) to the 'gNyan'-dMu class (country-god) spirits who bring disease and death to humanity.

Here's an image of Bon demons: http://en.tibet.cn/newfeature/xzt_congshu/xzt_congshu_zongjiao/xzt_congshu_zongjiao_benjiao/W020070109589962564293.jpg

and the Encyclopedia Mythica page on the dMu:
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/m/mu.html

I hope that helps!

[Nounours]

HoneyBadger, you're great !!

I already had seen the page about tibetan myths, but all of this will help me, I think.

In fact, I do know about Hilton's novel, and I planned Shambhala to be Shangri La in MA, after the fall of the Hidden Masters.

I don't know if I'll use all of this, though : I want Shangri La to have a strong tibetan "flavor", but I also want to use legends, rumors and conspiracy theories about Shambhala, Agartha (not Dom3's Agartha with the Pales Ones:p), hollow earth and the mysterious group called "Synarchy" that secretly rules the world...

I guess I've read too often Umberto Eco's novel "Foucault's Pendulum" :D !!

I will use demons and mountain spirits, and perhaps make lhas spirits of the land.

According Arthur Cotterell's "Illustrated Guide to Mythology" (at least the french version I've got), Tibet was first inhabited by black-skinned demons called "gnod-sbyin", that used bow and arrows and spreaded diseases, and they seems to be very similar to "bTsan".

I don't know if they'll be called gnod-sbyin or bTsan, but you will sure have black-skinned bow-wieldind disease-spreading demons as a national summon :D!!

[HoneyBadger]

The bTsan I was able to find, so that's good. Are you specifically basing this on the Bon religion? It would seem that that would make the ideal basis for an early age, with Buddhism entering into the picture by MA, and that seems to be what you're going for. Either way, I'd be happy to research for you, since this is a theme I've been wanting to see for a long time :)

[Nounours]

In fact, there will be lamas in EA Shangri La. Bön is the traditional religion of Bhödpa clans, under domination of more advanced Shangrilan, whose religion is more "buddhist-flavored" (tibetan buddhism, of course).

In MA, Bön disappear (no more demon or spirit summons, no more need for demon-hunter, no more dmu-rgyal sorcerers), Mi Gö start to be rarer, and the buddhist-like religion of the Hidden Masters become more and more influent, and more traditionalist.

In LA, the Hidden Masters have ascended and left this world. The Hidden City is taken over by a group of mysterious and potent mages called the Synarchy (Umberto Eco !!!), which plot to take control over the world. Shangri La is no more a land of enlightenment, but a place where treason, deceit and manipulation are common. I want this era to show how a beautiful thing and a heritage of spiritual ascension may be corrupted when it becomes mere ideology...

[Endoperez]

Have you considered using the Agartha connection with nagas of LA Patala? I understand Patala in particular was thought to be close to Tibet.

Have you given thought to sprites? Looking through the existing units and trying to find sprites that could be used with slight alteration can save you lots of time. Eric M has extracted all the sprites, and simple stuff such as recoloring or copying a weapon from another unit doesn't require much skill.

[Nounours]

Have you considered using the Agartha connection with nagas of LA Patala? I understand Patala in particular was thought to be close to Tibet.

Have you given thought to sprites? Looking through the existing units and trying to find sprites that could be used with slight alteration can save you lots of time. Eric M has extracted all the sprites, and simple stuff such as recoloring or copying a weapon from another unit doesn't require much skill.


1. Yes, I am considering to connect it with with nagas in some way (I'll precise this later).

2. THANKS to Eric M, 'cause I use his great work. I confirm that recoloring or copying a sprites from another unit doesn't require much skill... and it's a good thing, because I don't have much skill :D !

3. I have reconsidered my plans about the nation development, because I founded others informations about tibetan demons and spirits :evil: :

- Shangri La will go to MA.
- in EA, the nation will be a mountain kingdom ruled by shaman-kings and demons. The religion will be related to Bön (HoneyBdger will be pleased ;)!), without buddhist influence. Buddhist influence will only appear with a hero or two. In MA, they have overthrown demons' influence and chased them.
Also in EA : In Tibet, klu are naga-like water-spirit. They will be part of the nation (recruitable or summons ? Don't know) in EA, will be summonable in MA, and disappear in LA : they have become nagas and have gone to Patala !
- Don't know how it will go in LA.

[HoneyBadger]

Oh nice! I like the Bon EA idea :)

You might also want to consider that, from the little I've been able to find out, Bon was "demonized" to some extent, by the Buddhists. As in, originally, the Bon demons and spirits were just regular gods that were replaced and marginalized. Ofcourse, they apparently still appear as demons and spirits in the current Bon religion, so either option (good spirits or bad demons) is open to you.

I wish I could find out more about Bon, but there's not a whole lot on the internet, and I can't afford the bookstore right now. I might hit my local library and see if they can come up with anything. We have a Buddhist temple close by, too, but I haven't gone there yet.

[Nounours]

EA Shamballa will officially be a Bön-based nation, ruled by tibetans "demons".

In fact, you will have human troops (Bhödpa, the same troops than in MA Shangri La, and Lepcha mountaineers), and spirit/demon troops. Commanders will include Bhödpa Shaman-kings, demons, Rgyal Po (demon lord) and Srin Po'i Rgyal Po ("cannibal demon king"). There'll be two "factions" of spirits : lhas will be more kind and benevolent spirits, dmu will be more cruel, violent and quite evil ones, demons in fact, but originally they both belong to the same class of spirits, worshipped by Bön religion.

BTW, you will have Palden Dorjee Lhamo (a cruel demon mounted on a horse, with a saddle made of fresh human skin) as a national hero, and possibly Milarepa too (though this one may go to MA instead).

[Sombre]

Do you anticipate difficulty with the graphics?

A lot of nations are started or designed but a major hurdle for many people seems to be doing the graphics. Placeholders or quick and dirty graphics have been used as a shortcut, but the mods that use them don't seem to get a lot of play.

[Nounours]

Yes, I DO anticipate difficulty with the graphics, but i will try all my best to make sprites that don't look like they've been drawn by a one-handed blind drunken painter !! (I'll TRY :D !)

I don't want to waste what seems good mod ideas, and represent so much work, with bad graphics, so I'll apply myself on my sprites.

Furthermore, I learn a lot when intenting to resolve my problems. It seems that I've just resolved my problems with yetis' sprites, and it gave me ideas to resolve other graphic problems.

If I REALLY need help, I'll ask for it...:p

[Sombre]

If you want a good base for a Yeti sprite I think a couple have been done.

I did Yhetees in the Ogre Kingdoms mod.

[Nounours]

OK, I'll have a look at it...;)

[Sombre]

I think the other yeti I remember was in,... Epic Heroes?

[HoneyBadger]

Here's a rather unique take on the yeti from Monstropedia:

[Nounours]

Quite lovecraftian, isn't it :D ?

Mines will be white furry big beasts, related to more evolved (or less degenerate) Mi Gös (and these ones are NOT Lovecraft's ones!).

Sombre, I won't be using your yhetee's sprite, but your mod is gorgeous!!

By the way, I've found A. David-Néel's book about Tibetan mystics and magicians, and the epic of king Gesar of Ling. Maybe Gesar will appear as a hero, probably in EA. There will be ro langs (walking corpses) too, I'll try to find something lightly different from standard soulless.

Oh, and citipatis will probably be summonable undead. Probably in MA, 'cause originally, they're assassinated monks, and there are no monks in EA, only shamans.

[Sombre]

Thank you.

This is one of the fews mods I'm really anticipating. The flavour is very nice, it fits well with dom3 and you seem like you're going to put in the effort on the graphical front.

[Nounours]

Palden Dorjee Lhamo will be a national hero in EA, and there'll be a national spell to summon the Sde Brgyad, or Frightful Ones.

For those who don't know these merry & joyful fellows, Palden Dorjee Lhamo, is a tibetan demon who rides a wild horse on a saddle made from a bloody human skin. The Frightful Ones are demons crowned with bones and who dance upon corpses, eat the flesh of men and whose delicacy is fresh brains served up in shattered skulls !!

King Gesar of Ling (a tibetan colleague of king Arthur, Cu Chulainn or Gilgamesh) will be a hero, probably in EA.

You'll also have the ascet and poet Milarepa as a hero, possibly in EA.

[Kristoffer O]

> This is one of the fews mods I'm really anticipating. The flavour is very nice, it fits well with dom3 and you seem like you're going to put in the effort on the graphical front.

I agree!
I would like to see this project finished.
Keep up the good work and make sure you finish the graphics. It would be a shame to see such good ideas come to naught :)

[Nounours]

Palden Dorjee Lhamo is almost finished ! This girl's sprite (yes, it is female. And not the kind you'd wish to present to your mom :D!) has been really hard to draw. I mean REALLY. But at least, I managed to obtain something that more or less looks like I wanted to do;).

Sde Brgyad (Frightful Ones) are finished, and will be a national summon.

I've finished Bdud (a kind of demons) and Bdud Warriors, and also made the sprite for Lhas (sorts of guardian spirits or lesser gods) and Dgra Lhas (warrior gods or spirits). I'm about to draw some other demons (Srin Po, Gshed Ma, Rgyal Po, Srin Po'i Rgyal Po) and spirits (Klu), and I hope I'll be able to present you with a test version of the mod quite soon (possibly next week or the week after... I hope:rolleyes:)

[HoneyBadger]

By the way, if you want any advice on Nepalise/Tibetan/Ghurkah armaments, and maybe military practices, I can probably help a lot there. I've studied the kukri and related weapons at great length (I was going to have a kukri specially forged for me, at one time, but I got married and the money for it disappeared-aside from that, my dad used to appraise swords for auction houses, and I basically got weapons and armour with my mother's milk.).

[Sombre]

Before you stick up a test version, how about a preview of a couple of completed sprites to whet our appetites?

[Nounours]

I basically got weapons and armour with my mother's milk.).

Honeybadger, what an horrible thing to imagine :D ! But, at least, you had an iron-rich diet when you were a baby...:rolleyes:

I'm interested by advices on Tibetan armaments and military practices.

Concerning Ghurkah, you won't have them until LA, but a unit in MA uses kukri (dagger-size kukri, 'cause I plan to have Ghurkah-based units in LA, some with short kukri blades, others with great kukri, sorts of dacian "sica").

Oh, and here is the sprite of Palden Dorjee Lhamo... I hope you will not be too disappointed by my lack of drawing skill :D !

[Edratman]

Nicely done. You are a true sprite master.

[Nounours]

Well, this didn't work like I expected...

I just tried once again, and failed !

How can I attach an image so you can download it and see it better ? Any help is welcome...


BTW, the yellow guy is a Gelug lama of Shangri La...

[Edratman]

I just went though that myself today.

I read and followed Sombre's advice to Honeybadger in Honeybadgers' Aksum thread.

What you have to do (from a near-total idiots understanding) is convert your sprites to a JPEG format, upload them to Free Image Hosting.com, copy the address and paste it in the "manage attachments" part below this section of the reply.

How did I do?? Did it once, two hours ago and already I'm an expert!!!!!!!:D:D

[Nounours]

Thanks, Ed.

I tried ... but it didn't work !!

I keep having the sprite as a thumbnail, not as an attached file, and it doesn't seem you can download it...

:DI think the problem is you're a near-total idiot... so you understand it much better than me 'cause i'm a total-idiot :doh:!!

[Edratman]

The best thing to do is to wait patiently until one of the Dover pros read this thread and can help you.

I spent about 30 minutes clicking and hoping in my image program until I stumbled upon the method of accomplishing (mostly) my objective. It is known as the "Even a blind dog pees on a bush once in while" method of computer type stuff.:)

[Sombre]

Convert the .tga file to .png

Go to freeimagehosting.

Upload.

Copy the URL for 'Display this image on a forum' or whatever.

Paste it in a post.

If people want to download it they can do a save as. I don't see why you'd need people to download it though.

[Nounours]

A few sprites, then...

- First, an EA Rgyal Po (demon lord or king) attacking.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/5b4c36fffa.png (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

- a Bhödpa yack rider (EA & MA).

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/1923b76c17.png (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

- a Bdud demon.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/37c1b10869.png (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

- a Shangrilan heavy infantry (MA).

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/da1b76c96b.png (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

- a Mi Gö.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/22b9afd2c0.png (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

[Foodstamp]

Wow those look really great. Excellent job :).

[Sombre]

Nice work. You've kept things simple and used dom3 sprites as a base in an intelligent way. Just goes to show you don't necessarily need to do huge monsters from scratch to have pleasing graphics.

When I saw your Yak rider, I remembered a couple of sprites I did for a DrP mod that never got used. They aren't very good, but they might be of use to you - so feel free to rip them apart if that's the case. I won't be using them for anything. I think they were Auroch Cataphracts.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/8ddc42c881.png (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

[Foodstamp]

Don't discount yourself. Those graphics fit in perfect with the game, I really like the yak rider with the silver barding.

[HoneyBadger]

The sprites look great, Nounours. As far as proper weaponry for EA, I would say the Phurba is your dagger of choice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phurba

It would obviously work well as a magical weapon.

The Kukri, on the other hand, I think you're right about it being better for MA. It could show up in EA in some form-it may have been brought by the Alexandrian Greeks (in the form of the Falcata/Kopis)-but you can also argue that it showed up as late as the 16th century, with the Turks (Yataghan).

Here's a nice set of images, mostly of the Kukri, but with tarwars and katars, and some other interesting swords/knives, also:

http://www.himalayan-imports.com/faq/Historical.htm

Here's some modern images, which includes a Nepalese axe and some other tools. The company, Himalayan Imports, does pretty good quality stuff, and most of it authentic, from what I've been able to find out. And they're very good about giving you some background/history on what they make-they have some nice walkthroughs on their kukri-making, for instance.

http://www.himalayan-imports.com/one-time-knives.html

Here's an extensive discussion about ancient Tibetan soldiers/warriors, and their equipment and practices. I haven't read the whole thing, but there's some interesting speculation and documentation, including:
"Certainly some Tibetan armies, by the 9th century, seem to have been composed entirely of cavalry. Beckwith (in “The Tibetans in the Ordos and North China: Considerations on the Role of the Tibetan Empire in World History” in Christopher Beckwith (ed.), Silver on Lapis: Tibetan Literary Culture and History, Tibet Society, Bloomington, Indiana, 1987), mentions an army of 50,000 cavalry sent to attack the Uighurs in the Ordos in 809, along with other long-distance campaigns into Mongolia that would probably entail all-cavalry armies. Shakabpa (Shakabpa, Tsepan W D, Tibet: A Political History, Yale University Press, 1967) recounts the surrender of an Indian king to a Tibetan expedition: seeing long columns of Tibetan cavalry making their way into his country, he assumed that so many cavalry must be followed by an even greater number of infantry and elephants, and so surrendered at once against such overwhelming odds – but in fact, the cavalry were all there were!

***Other sources mention infantry, but they appear to be conventional infantry marching on foot; for example, a Tibetan chronicle describes an army of the Imperial period on the march, with cavalry in the van, archers and "dagger-armed soothsayers" in the centre, and mailed spearmen marching last***

(Thomas, F W, “Tibetan Documents concerning Chinese Turkestan. VI: The Tibetan Army”, Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society April 1933 and July 1933). I have only ever seen the dismounting idea mentioned in the Tongdian quote."

That last bit seems like something right out of Dominions3, with "dagger-armed soothsayers" (aka mages) accompanying the army :)

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=519&st=15&start=15

Here's an article by the Metropolitan Museum of Art:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/13/arts/design/13armo.html

It includes a video, but the video wouldn't play on my computer.

And last (but not least) here's an extensive website on Tibet and Nepal-focused museum collections:

http://www.himalayanart.org/links/index.cfm?categoryid=21

Here's a picture of a Phurba:

[Nounours]

I have phurba, in EA and MA (used for example by some mages and demon hunters). They are magic daggers that cause more damage to demons.

For the kukri, I think I'll have one, in some way (perhaps as a sword, perhaps falcata) in EA, but it will be present mainly in LA, in the hands of some Ghurka-like mountaineers.

Garu dhaw and hasiya look great, i'll have to try to incorporate them in some way :D !

I will perhaps try to add some cavalry (medium probably) in EA and MA.

Oh, and I've almost finished the sprite of Srin Po'i Rgyal Po (cannibal demon king) of EA : it even manage to scare me, and I'm the one who done it! I hope you will like them (I'll try to post an image when it is finished).

[HoneyBadger]

I had the thought that it might be interesting to give a low level priest unit (H1) the enormous (3 foot long) ceremonial kukris ghurkas use to sacrifice an ox before battle (for the unaware-it's considered a favorable sign if the head of the ox can be completely severed with a single blow). It seems a priestly function, and would separate them from most any other human priest if they had such a high damage weapon.

The 'tarwar' swords from the first link looked like they'd be pretty fun, too. I have the suspicion that they really did come from the Turks, though, since they seem very similar to the "Talwar" or "Tulwar" (a middle-easten long sword with a blade that's distinctively thicker at the point), even in the name.

[Nounours]

Your great kukri wielding priest is adopted, HoneyBadger ;) !
It will appear in LA, when Ghurka-like units will be part of the nation.

I already have included kukri, and gave it dmg 3, att 2, def 0 and length 0 (it's the short dagger-sized version).

It deals quite high damage and have a good attack bonus because of the powerful blows it can deliver, and because it is quick and easy to handle. I've got a kukri myself, a short one. Frightful weapon. Once, I used it to chop a knife-resisting watermelon. I damaged the table, because the kukri went through the watermelon like it was butter ! I didn't even try to deliver a very powerful blow, but these damned things are both heavy and razor-sharp edged !

For the "tarwar", I suspect it existed before the Turks brought it with them, but with another name, and the Turks, seeing it, said "Hey, look at the huge talwar these Nepalese guys have !" (or a medieval turkish equivalent), so the turkish name remained.
I think this type of blade is not so uncommon : the Romans used to fear greatly the kukri-like Dacian sword called "sica", and also known the similar Iberian "falcata". Some Scythian weapons and the Greek "kopis" and "makhaira" looked very similar too.

[Edi]

Those are kick-arse graphics, Nounours. :)
Yours as well, Sombre.

[Nounours]

Well, I changed my mind concerning the kukri and great kukri sword appearing in LA, because it was graphically challenging, and i didn't resist to try drawing it. So, now you'll have kukri as a weapon used by Lepcha archers (while Lepcha light infantry will use hasiya), and great kukri at the hands of dmu (demons), and perhaps Bhödpa warriors.

Here is a Srin Po swordsman armed with the great kukri.

[Endoperez]

Your graphics work very well. Good luck with your mod.

[HoneyBadger]

Yes, you're doing a fantastic job with the graphics.

[Nounours]

There'll be cavalry in EA & MA, and the nation is more & more tibetan-flavored.

The original idea of a "conspiracy theory Shangri La" with its hidden masters who plan to dominate the world will go in LA, because I can't use all the informations I found about Tibetan culture in only one era, so I'll use EA & MA for this, and keep LA for the original idea.

I hope MA will be ready for testing (and I'll need YOU all for this...) next week, and EA soon after...

[HoneyBadger]

Well I can't test it at the moment, but if you list the stats you're using in the thread (see my Aksum thread for an example), I'd be happy to comment on them. Keep in mind that it's been several months since I've actually *played* Dom3, so I may not be the most accurate judge of what's what--but I'll be happy to help.

[Nounours]

OK, so here are the stats for Shangri La's units. I'll add summons' stats later, as well as national spells when they'll be finished.

And please tell me if the units' cost (gold and resources) seems correct, I'm not sure for some of them...



Shangri La:

Likes Cold 2.

Starting Units:

20 Bhôdpa Archers.
20 Shangrilan medium Infantry (with falchion and shield).
Bhödpa Sde Pa.
Bhödpa Scout.


Starting Sites:

-Hidden City of Shangri-La. Astral 2, Earth 1. Allows recruitment of Guardian of the Hidden Valley, Rje, Hidden Master.
-Mount Yung-drung. Air 1, Earth 1. Allows recruitment of Mi Dred, Wise One.

PD: 1-20 1xShangrilan medium Infantry (w/ glaive), 1xShangrilan Archer. Commander: Dmag Dpon. 21-125 , 1xRta Pa, 1xShangrilan Crossbowman. Commander: Trapa

Units:

Bhödpa Spearman : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 13, Prot 7, Mor 10, MR 10 Mv 11(2), Prec 9. Weapons: Spear, Javelins. Armor: Leather hauberk, Reinforced leather cap, Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 75; Stealthy 0.
Cost: Gold 10, Res 8.

Bhödpa Archer: Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 9, Prot 7, Mor 10, MR 10,Mv 12(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Dagger, Shortbow. Armor: Leather hauberk, Reinforced leather cap.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 75; Stealthy 0.
Cost: Gold 10, Res 6.

Bhödpa Warrior: Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 13, Prot 7, Mor 10, MR 10 Mv 11(2), Prec 9. Weapons: Falchion, Javelins. Armor: Leather hauberk, Reinforced leather cap, Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 75; Stealthy 0.
Cost: Gold 10, Res 11.

Bhödpa yack rider : Hp 12, Size 3, Str 10, Att 11, Def 14, Prot 7, Mor 10, MR 10 Mv 22(3), Prec 9. Weapons: Light Lance, Gore (Dmg 13, no strength added), Shortbow. Armor: Leather hauberk, Half Helmet, Buckler.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 75; Mounted.
Cost: Gold 20, Res 14.

Bhödpa Horseman : Hp 12, Size 3, Str 10, Att 11, Def 10, Prot 7, Mor 11, MR 10 Mv 25(3), Prec 10. Weapons: Light Lance, Hoof, Shortbow. Armor: Leather hauberk, Half Helmet, Buckler.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 75; Mounted.
Cost: Gold 20, Res 14.

Mda Pad (Shangrilan archer) : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 9, Prot 9, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 11(2), Prec 12. Weapons: Shortsword, Composite bow. Armor: Full Leather Armor, Half Helmet.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 15, Res 12.

Shangrilan Crossbowman : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 12, Prot 9, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 10(2), Prec 12. Weapons: Shortsword, Crossbow. Armor: Full Leather Armor, Half Helmet.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 15, Res 14.

Shangrilan Medium Infantry : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 8, Prot 13, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 10(1), Prec 10. Weapons: Glaive. Armor: Scale Mail Hauberk, Half Helmet.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 15, Res 17.

Shangrilan Medium Infantry : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 14, Prot 13, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 8(1), Prec 10. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Scale Mail Hauberk, Half Helmet, Tower Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 15, Res 20.

Shangrilan Heavy Infantry : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 7, Prot 14, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 9(1), Prec 9. Weapons: Glaive. Armor: Full Scale Mail, Half Helmet.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 15, Res 20.

Shangrilan Heavy Infantry : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 13, Prot 14, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 7(1), Prec 9. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Full Scale Mail, Half Helmet, Tower Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 15, Res 23.

Dmag Dar (Shangrilan Standard-bearer) : Hp 12, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 9, Prot 13,Mor 14, MR 11, Mv 10(1), Prec 10. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Scale Mail Hauberk, Half Helmet.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; standard (5).
Cost: Gold 20, Res 17.

Dmag Hrag (Shangrilan Elite Infantry) : Hp 14, Size 2, Str 11, Att 13, Def 13, Prot 17, Mor 14, MR 11, Mv 8(2), Prec 9. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Full Chain Mail, Half Helmet, Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 25, Res 27.

Rta Pa (Shangrilan Heavy Cavalry) : Hp 12, Size 3, Str 11, Att 12, Def 15, Prot 19, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 23(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Lance, Falchion, Hoof, Composite bow. Armor: Rta Pa armor (Prot 19, def -3, enc 3), Half Helmet, Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 40, Res 9.

Shangrilan Guardian of the Hidden Valley : Hp 15, Size 2, Str 11, Att 13, Def 14, Prot 14, Mor 15, MR 12, Mv 11(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Full Scale Mail, Half Helmet, Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Castle def. 1; Patrol bonus 1; sacred.
Cost: Gold 40, Res 44.

Mi Gö : Hp 20, Size 3, Str 16, Att 11, Def 10, Prot 5, Mor 13, MR 11, Mv 14(2), Prec 9. Weapons: Great Club. Mountain surv; Cold res. 100; Cold power 1.
Cost: Gold 20, Res 3.

Mi Gö Hunter : Hp 20, Size 3, Str 16, Att 11, Def 10, Prot 5, Mor 13, MR 11, Mv 14(2), Prec 11. Weapons: Spear, Javelins. Mountain surv; Forest surv; Cold res. 100; Cold power 1; Stealthy 5.
Cost: Gold 25, Res 5.

Mi Dred : Hp 25, Size 3, Str 16, Att 12, Def 10, Prot 14, Mor 13, MR 11, Mv 13(2), Prec 9. Weapons: Ice Cudgel (Dmg 8, Len 3, magic, second. eff. Cold). Armor: Scale Mail Cuirass, Bronze Cap.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 100; Cold power 1; Sacred.
Cost: Gold 40, Res 21.

Commanders:

Bhödpa Scout : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 11, Prot 7, Mor 10, MR 10 Mv 10(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Spear, Javelins. Armor: Furs, Reinforced leather cap, Shield.
No leader; Mountain surv; Cold res. 75; Stealthy 0.
Cost: Gold 10, Res 7.

Bhödpa Sde Pa (Bhödpa Clan Chief) : Hp 12, Size 2, Str 11, Att 11, Def 13, Prot 9, Mor 10, MR 10, Mv 12(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Scale Mail Cuirass, Reinforced leather cap.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 75; Stealthy 0.
Cost: Gold 40, Res 14.

Dmag Dpon (Shangrilan Officer) : Hp 14, Size 2, Str 11, Att 11, Def 14, Prot 14, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 8(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Full Scale Mail, Half Helmet, Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Standard (5); good leader.
Cost: Gold 60, Res 22.

Rta Dma Go (Shangrilan Cavalry Commander) : Hp 14, Size 3, Str 12, Att 12, Def 17, Prot 19, Mor 13, MR 11, Mv 23(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Lance, Falchion, Hoof. Armor: Rta Pa armor (Prot 19, def -3, enc 3), Half Helmet, Shield.
Cold res. 50, Mounted; Standard (5).
Cost: Gold 80, Res 41.

Rje (Shangrilan King) : Hp 16, Size 2, Str 13, Att 13, Def 17, Prot 14, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 8(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Full Scale Mail, Half Helmet, Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Standard (15); expert leader; Sacred.
Cost: Gold 140, Res 22.

Trapa (Shangrilan Monk) : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 9, Prot 1, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 12(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Fist. Armor: Robes. Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Poor leader; Sacred.
Astral 1, Holy 1, 20 % chance Air, Earth or Astral.
Cost: Gold 50, Res 2.

Ngagspa (Shangrilan Sorcerer) : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 10, Prot 2, Mor 11, MR 13, Mv 12(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Phurba (Dmg. 3, Len 0, Att +1, magic, dmg x2 vs.demons). Armor: Robes.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Poor leader; research bonus -3.
Earth 1, Death 1, Nature 1, Blood 1, 50 % chance Air, Earth, Death, Nature or Blood,50 % chance Air, Earth, Death, Nature or Blood (twice, it's not an error).
Cost: Gold 150, Res 2.

Demon Hunter : Hp 11, Size 2, Str 10, Att 13, Def 11, Prot 1, Mor 15, MR 12, Mv 12(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Phurba (Dmg. 3, Len 0, Att +1, magic, dmg x2 vs. demons). Armor: Robes. Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; poor leader; Sacred.
Fire 2, Astral 1, Holy 1, 50 % chance Air, Fire, Astral, death or Blood.
Cost: Gold 160, Res 6.

Ragyapa : Hp 11, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 10, Prot 1, Mor 13, MR 12, Mv 12(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Kukri (Dmg. 3, Len 0, Att +2). Armor: Robes. Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Poor Leader; Sacred.
Fire 2, Astral 1, Holy 1, 20 % chance Air, Earth or Astral.
Cost: Gold 120, Res 4.

Nyingmapa (Red-Hat Lama) : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 10, Prot 3, Mor 16, MR 13, Mv 14(3), Prec 10. Weapons: Fist, Lightning. Armor: Robes.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Poor Leader; poor magic leader; Sacred.
Air 2, Earth 2, Astral 2, Holy 2, 100 % chance Fire, Air, Earth or Astral, 50 % chance Fire, Air, Earth or Astral.
Cost: Gold 240, Res 2.

Gelug (Yellow-Hat Lama) : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 10, Prot 2, Mor 16, MR 13, Mv 14(3), Prec 10. Weapons: Fist, Lightning. Armor: Robes. Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Sacred; OK Leader, poor magic leader.
Air 1, Earth 1, Astral 2, Holy 2, 100 % chance Air, Earth or Astral, 20 % chance Air, Earth or Astral.
Cost: Gold 220, Res 2.

Karmapa (Black-Hat Lama) : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 10, Prot 1, Mor 16, MR 13, Mv 14(3), Prec 10. Weapons: Fist, Lightning. Armor: Robes.Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Fortune teller (10); Poor Leader, Poor undead Leader; Sacred.
Air 1, Astral 3, Death 1, Holy 2, 100 % chance Air, Earth, Astral or Death, 20 % chance Air, Earth, Astral or Death.
Cost: Gold 230, Res 2.

Hidden Master : Hp 12, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 10, Prot 3, Mor 16, MR 13, Mv 14(3), Prec 14. Weapons: Fist, Lightning. Armor: Robes. Mountain surv; Cold res. 75, poison res. 50; NNE; Flying; Stealthy 10; OK leader; Sacred.
Air 2, Earth 2, Astral 3, Holy 3, 100 % chance Fire, Air, Earth or Astral, 20 % chance Fire, Air, Earth or Astral.
Cost: Gold 360, Res 2.

Summons:

- Yeti
- Local demons

[Aezeal]

all you mages are very powerfull, I think they are all too cheap, 50 gp extra each at least

seriously a holy 1 astral 1 mage + random of 20 % for more paths is way way way unbalanced.. and that is starting with the weakest mage.

I'd put 50 gp on top of each mage below 200 gp and 75 on top of the mages more than 200 gp and then they are probably STILL to good for the cost.

I'd try compare them with equivalent mages in the game with same number of "magic points" in total and same highest path level.. and then don't take the cheapest comparison for each but a mid priced one.

ARGGG they are ALL sacred AND NOT OLD AGE....(most sacred powerfull mages are old age) seriously adding 75-100 gp on all mages would probably be the right thing to do if you don't want to grossly overpower this nation.

Your cavalry could use a few gp more and quite some resources more (heavy cav 9 res must be type but still..)

Overall I think you are giving this nation a bit to much of everything (strong troops with a wide range of the best weapons (composite bows, crossbows, falchions etc etc)< heavy armor, strongish sacreds, and a selection of the most powerfull mages in existance.

All those mages covering all paths is allready a bit much for me, IF you insist on having such powerfull SACRED mages they should be priced accordingly in the first place, secondly I think they should be offset by weaker troops and a poorish sacred.

Of course this is all only if you intend to balance the nation to vanilla nations.. if you just want a nice and thematic nation to play with all of this is of no concern and the AI might actually be a nice opponent with this race... but there is no way in hell that I'd play against this nation in a serious (time consuming) MP game.

[Nounours]

Well, in fact, the Rta Pa resources cost is 44, my mistake :doh:.

I was hesitating about the Crossbowman, he'll move to LA :rolleyes:.

The problem is that the nation is based on Tibetan armies. they had quite heavy infantry, and light infantry too, so I guess i'll remove the medium infantry.

About armaments, I may change Falchion for broadswords, for some troops, because I just found examples of tibetan sword with a straight blade.

I think I'll keep the sacred troops, but for a higher cost (about 60 gp each).

About mages covering all magic paths, the problem is thematic : tibetan lamas and sorcerers have the reputation of being VERY powerful. Tibetans seems to be obsessed by sorcerers. And demons. And curses. And sorcery :p. So, I think I'll keep the diversity, but reduce the levels of most mages. And rise their cost.

Oh, and most of them are old, it's just that i forgot to mention it. Ngagspa aren't old because they have Nature magic. Hidden Masters aren't old either because they are meant to be superior & enlightened beings (and some of them are old nevertheless...). Not all Demon-Hunters are old, but some are (because of Fire magic). There are Mi Gö mages, too, but they are cap only, and not so powerfil. Their main interest is that they are water mages (they have Water 1).

And, YES, I want this nation to be thematic, but I also want it to be the more balanced possible.

Thanks for your advice, and be lenient, please :D, it's my very first mod !

[HoneyBadger]

You might consider raising the price, but also giving the Hidden Masters (only) Self Healing. It seems (atleast to me) to fit them. I agree that they should be elderly, but the heal tag will offset this. If you go with Self Healing, I'd recommend raising the price to 500 gold. That's still really expensive for a human troop-even one with superhuman powers.

Another way to balance them out that you might consider would be to start them off Horror Marked. The idea being that the void lords and such would want to take down such powerful entities as the Hidden Masters-I mean, they're 'Hidden' for a reason, right?

No idea if this is currently possible, though, sorry.

[Aezeal]

Your proposed changes sound nice, I'd still increase the cost though..

no need to give hidden masters old age.. if the are nearly immortal you could just increase their livespan. INcreasing price might be enough.. 500 might be a bit too high since 500 gp troops usually are good SC chassis too.. but 400-450 might be good.

[Nounours]

I have considered giving the Hidden Masters Self-Healing, but thought it was really too much.

I have decreased slightly their magic paths levels and diversity): they now have Air 2, Earth 2, Astral 2, Holy 3 & 100% chance for Air, Earth or Astral, plus another 10 % for Air, Earth or Astral.

I also raised their cost up to 400 gp, after comparing them to : Arch Theurg, King of Rain, Hangadrott, Celestial Masters (of the differents eras), Nagarishi, Tuatha, Tuatha Sorceress, Niefel Jarl, Fomorian King & Grand Master.

[Endoperez]

I suggest that you find and read Baalz's Guide to Marverni. He describes various nasty ways to use Earth combination mages are, which would help you understand why Hidden Masters are so great. And they are great.

I think the Marverni guide has the highest combination of being fun to read and teaching new things about Dominions I've come across in these forums. It's not quite as fun as his guide to Hinnom( eats everything!), but it was the first time I was able to understand how much good mages rule in the endgame.

[Aezeal]

Well the change seems better, 7 magic path points with maybe one extra isn't that overpowered since none will reach more than 4 and usually max 3.

Don't forget the prices on the other mages though.

[Kristoffer O]

I'm not sure what the role of the hidden masters are in your shangrilan society. If religion is an important part of society and the hidden masters are temporal and religionus leaders known and respected in the society as a whole they deserve 3 holy. If they are hidden and sequester themselves from society holy 2 might fit better.

The celestial masters of TC are only holy 2, and they have a role as leaders of the faith. However the faith is not as institutionalized as in say Marignon or Pythium and magical practices complement faith in many ways.

Since Tibet might be viewed as a theocracy it might fit with holy 3, but it might also fit with holy 2 if the religious leaders are not part of the faith and practicers of the commoners. On the other hand they might represent otherworldly/enlightened/sacred(as in 'apart') beings of true faith, in which case 3 fits very good.

[Nounours]

Since Tibet might be viewed as a theocracy it might fit with holy 3, but it might also fit with holy 2 if the religious leaders are not part of the faith and practicers of the commoners. On the other hand they might represent otherworldly/enlightened/sacred(as in 'apart') beings of true faith, in which case 3 fits very good.

Hidden Masters are indeed enlightened beings who nearly achieved spiritual ascension, and represent the spiritual ideal of Shangrilan religion. They are viewed as models to follow, and examples of spiritual perfection. They are the spiritual leaders of the nation, and hold the supreme authority. They don't meddle with day-to-day affairs, this is the role of lamas (gelugs in particular) and rje (shangrilan kings), but their word is LAW. Those who exert temporal authority are seen merely as servants. The Hidden Masters take the important decisions, in temporal as in spiritual matters, but are too important and too sacred to be annoyed with petty temporal problems. It's why I gave them holy 3.

[HoneyBadger]

Units:

Bhödpa Spearman : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 13, Prot 7, Mor 10, MR 10 Mv 11(2), Prec 9. Weapons: Spear, Javelins. Armor: Leather hauberk, Reinforced leather cap, Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 75; Stealthy 0.
Cost: Gold 10, Res 8.

Bhödpa Archer: Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 9, Prot 7, Mor 10, MR 10,Mv 12(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Dagger, Shortbow. Armor: Leather hauberk, Reinforced leather cap.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 75; Stealthy 0.
Cost: Gold 10, Res 6.

Bhödpa Warrior: Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 13, Prot 7, Mor 10, MR 10 Mv 11(2), Prec 9. Weapons: Falchion, Javelins. Armor: Leather hauberk, Reinforced leather cap, Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 75; Stealthy 0.
Cost: Gold 10, Res 11.

Bhödpa yack rider : Hp 12, Size 3, Str 10, Att 11, Def 14, Prot 7, Mor 10, MR 10 Mv 22(3), Prec 9. Weapons: Light Lance, Gore (Dmg 13, no strength added), Shortbow. Armor: Leather hauberk, Half Helmet, Buckler.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 75; Mounted.
Cost: Gold 20, Res 14.

Bhödpa Horseman : Hp 12, Size 3, Str 10, Att 11, Def 10, Prot 7, Mor 11, MR 10 Mv 25(3), Prec 10. Weapons: Light Lance, Hoof, Shortbow. Armor: Leather hauberk, Half Helmet, Buckler.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 75; Mounted.
Cost: Gold 20, Res 14.

Mda Pad (Shangrilan archer) : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 9, Prot 9, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 11(2), Prec 12. Weapons: Shortsword, Composite bow. Armor: Full Leather Armor, Half Helmet.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 15, Res 12.

Shangrilan Crossbowman : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 12, Prot 9, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 10(2), Prec 12. Weapons: Shortsword, Crossbow. Armor: Full Leather Armor, Half Helmet.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 15, Res 14.

Shangrilan Medium Infantry : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 8, Prot 13, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 10(1), Prec 10. Weapons: Glaive. Armor: Scale Mail Hauberk, Half Helmet.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 15, Res 17.

Shangrilan Medium Infantry : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 14, Prot 13, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 8(1), Prec 10. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Scale Mail Hauberk, Half Helmet, Tower Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 15, Res 20.

Shangrilan Heavy Infantry : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 7, Prot 14, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 9(1), Prec 9. Weapons: Glaive. Armor: Full Scale Mail, Half Helmet.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 15, Res 20.

Shangrilan Heavy Infantry : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 13, Prot 14, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 7(1), Prec 9. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Full Scale Mail, Half Helmet, Tower Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 15, Res 23.

Dmag Dar (Shangrilan Standard-bearer) : Hp 12, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 9, Prot 13,Mor 14, MR 11, Mv 10(1), Prec 10. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Scale Mail Hauberk, Half Helmet.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; standard (5).
Cost: Gold 20, Res 17.

Dmag Hrag (Shangrilan Elite Infantry) : Hp 14, Size 2, Str 11, Att 13, Def 13, Prot 17, Mor 14, MR 11, Mv 8(2), Prec 9. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Full Chain Mail, Half Helmet, Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 25, Res 27.

Rta Pa (Shangrilan Heavy Cavalry) : Hp 12, Size 3, Str 11, Att 12, Def 15, Prot 19, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 23(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Lance, Falchion, Hoof, Composite bow. Armor: Rta Pa armor (Prot 19, def -3, enc 3), Half Helmet, Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50.
Cost: Gold 40, Res 9.

Huge Prot. for EA. With Res. 9 it's unbalanced. I'd suggest no higher than 16 Prot. for EA, unless you've got a *very* special case. Even in unique circumstances, I'd think long and hard before making any recruitable unit's Prot. more than 18 in EA.

Rule of thumb: 10 Prot in EA is rare, 12 Prot is very good, 14 is superior, and 16 is fantastic.

Shangrilan Guardian of the Hidden Valley : Hp 15, Size 2, Str 11, Att 13, Def 14, Prot 14, Mor 15, MR 12, Mv 11(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Full Scale Mail, Half Helmet, Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Castle def. 1; Patrol bonus 1; sacred.
Cost: Gold 40, Res 44.

Mi Gö : Hp 20, Size 3, Str 16, Att 11, Def 10, Prot 5, Mor 13, MR 11, Mv 14(2), Prec 9. Weapons: Great Club. Mountain surv; Cold res. 100; Cold power 1.
Cost: Gold 20, Res 3.

Mi Gö Hunter : Hp 20, Size 3, Str 16, Att 11, Def 10, Prot 5, Mor 13, MR 11, Mv 14(2), Prec 11. Weapons: Spear, Javelins. Mountain surv; Forest surv; Cold res. 100; Cold power 1; Stealthy 5.
Cost: Gold 25, Res 5.

Mi Dred : Hp 25, Size 3, Str 16, Att 12, Def 10, Prot 14, Mor 13, MR 11, Mv 13(2), Prec 9. Weapons: Ice Cudgel (Dmg 8, Len 3, magic, second. eff. Cold). Armor: Scale Mail Cuirass, Bronze Cap.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 100; Cold power 1; Sacred.
Cost: Gold 40, Res 21.

Commanders:

Bhödpa Scout : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 11, Prot 7, Mor 10, MR 10 Mv 10(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Spear, Javelins. Armor: Furs, Reinforced leather cap, Shield.
No leader; Mountain surv; Cold res. 75; Stealthy 0.
Cost: Gold 10, Res 7.

Bhödpa Sde Pa (Bhödpa Clan Chief) : Hp 12, Size 2, Str 11, Att 11, Def 13, Prot 9, Mor 10, MR 10, Mv 12(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Scale Mail Cuirass, Reinforced leather cap.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 75; Stealthy 0.
Cost: Gold 40, Res 14.

Dmag Dpon (Shangrilan Officer) : Hp 14, Size 2, Str 11, Att 11, Def 14, Prot 14, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 8(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Full Scale Mail, Half Helmet, Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Standard (5); good leader.
Cost: Gold 60, Res 22.

Rta Dma Go (Shangrilan Cavalry Commander) : Hp 14, Size 3, Str 12, Att 12, Def 17, Prot 19, Mor 13, MR 11, Mv 23(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Lance, Falchion, Hoof. Armor: Rta Pa armor (Prot 19, def -3, enc 3), Half Helmet, Shield.
Cold res. 50, Mounted; Standard (5).
Cost: Gold 80, Res 41.

Rje (Shangrilan King) : Hp 16, Size 2, Str 13, Att 13, Def 17, Prot 14, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 8(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Falchion. Armor: Full Scale Mail, Half Helmet, Shield.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Standard (15); expert leader; Sacred.
Cost: Gold 140, Res 22.

Trapa (Shangrilan Monk) : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 9, Prot 1, Mor 12, MR 11, Mv 12(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Fist. Armor: Robes. Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Poor leader; Sacred.
Astral 1, Holy 1, 20 % chance Air, Earth or Astral.
Cost: Gold 50, Res 2.

Ngagspa (Shangrilan Sorcerer) : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 10, Prot 2, Mor 11, MR 13, Mv 12(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Phurba (Dmg. 3, Len 0, Att +1, magic, dmg x2 vs.demons). Armor: Robes.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Poor leader; research bonus -3.
Earth 1, Death 1, Nature 1, Blood 1, 50 % chance Air, Earth, Death, Nature or Blood,50 % chance Air, Earth, Death, Nature or Blood (twice, it's not an error).
Cost: Gold 150, Res 2.

Demon Hunter : Hp 11, Size 2, Str 10, Att 13, Def 11, Prot 1, Mor 15, MR 12, Mv 12(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Phurba (Dmg. 3, Len 0, Att +1, magic, dmg x2 vs. demons). Armor: Robes. Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; poor leader; Sacred.
Fire 2, Astral 1, Holy 1, 50 % chance Air, Fire, Astral, death or Blood.
Cost: Gold 160, Res 6.

Ragyapa : Hp 11, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 10, Prot 1, Mor 13, MR 12, Mv 12(2), Prec 10. Weapons: Kukri (Dmg. 3, Len 0, Att +2). Armor: Robes. Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Poor Leader; Sacred.
Fire 2, Astral 1, Holy 1, 20 % chance Air, Earth or Astral.
Cost: Gold 120, Res 4.

Nyingmapa (Red-Hat Lama) : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 10, Prot 3, Mor 16, MR 13, Mv 14(3), Prec 10. Weapons: Fist, Lightning. Armor: Robes.
Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Poor Leader; poor magic leader; Sacred.
Air 2, Earth 2, Astral 2, Holy 2, 100 % chance Fire, Air, Earth or Astral, 50 % chance Fire, Air, Earth or Astral.
Cost: Gold 240, Res 2.

Gelug (Yellow-Hat Lama) : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 10, Prot 2, Mor 16, MR 13, Mv 14(3), Prec 10. Weapons: Fist, Lightning. Armor: Robes. Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Sacred; OK Leader, poor magic leader.
Air 1, Earth 1, Astral 2, Holy 2, 100 % chance Air, Earth or Astral, 20 % chance Air, Earth or Astral.
Cost: Gold 220, Res 2.

Karmapa (Black-Hat Lama) : Hp 10, Size 2, Str 10, Att 10, Def 10, Prot 1, Mor 16, MR 13, Mv 14(3), Prec 10. Weapons: Fist, Lightning. Armor: Robes.Mountain surv; Cold res. 50; Fortune teller (10); Poor Leader, Poor undead Leader; Sacred.
Air 1, Astral 3, Death 1, Holy 2, 100 % chance Air, Earth, Astral or Death, 20 % chance Air, Earth, Astral or Death.
Cost: Gold 230, Res 2.

Hidden Master : Hp 12, Size 2, Str 10, Att 11, Def 10, Prot 3, Mor 16, MR 13, Mv 14(3), Prec 14. Weapons: Fist, Lightning. Armor: Robes. Mountain surv; Cold res. 75, poison res. 50; NNE; Flying; Stealthy 10; OK leader; Sacred.
Air 2, Earth 2, Astral 3, Holy 3, 100 % chance Fire, Air, Earth or Astral, 20 % chance Fire, Air, Earth or Astral.
Cost: Gold 360, Res 2.

Your nation has good access to every path except Water-to which it's got resistances (Cold). You've also got recruitable Sacreds, strong Summons (it sounds like), and terrific Holy magic. I don't see too much that it's weak against, nor do I see much that it can't do--or that really *defines* it as a Tibetan nation. It's good so far-and fantastic, graphically!-especially as a first effort, but I think some time and effort still needs to be done to get them statistically where they should be.

I hope this helps a little-there's better judges out there, but those are the things that are most glaringly obvious.

[Nounours]

OK, let's see... :rolleyes:

1) Shangri La is now in MA, not EA :rolleyes:, so I guess high Prot is OK. Furthermore, it seems tibetan armors were renowned (as far as Arabia) and of high quality. I removed some units (crossbwoman, medium infantry), so Shangri La have now units with either low prot (Bhödpa infantry with prot 7) or high prot (shangrilan infantry & cavalry).

2) Sacred units now cost much more (respectively 60 gp for Guardians of the Hidden Valley & 70 gp for Mi Dred).

3) Mages are more expensive (+30/60 gp) & less powerful (for example : Ngagspa : Earth 1, Death 1, Blood 1, 100 % chance Air, Earth, Death or Blood ; Demon Hunter : Fire 1, Astral 1, Holy 1, 20 % chance for Air, Fire, Astral or Death ; Ragyapa : Death 1, Holy 1, 50 % chance for Air or Death; Ragyapa were never meant to have Fire nor Astral magic, it's a typo...:doh:).

4) Magic diversity : Wise Ones (Mi Gö mages) HAVE some water magic (1, possibly 2), but are quite expensive, I think (240 gp for a W1, E1, N1 mage with 50 % for +1 in W/E/N), and are cap only. Ngagaspa no longer have Nature, so Wise Ones are your only access to Water & Nature, and, I repeat, they're cap only and quite expensive.

5) Yes, Shangri La have strong summons, but I'm trying to make them expensive and difficult to access: many summons require death and/or blood 3+, while you have a quite limited access to death and blood magic (karmapa may have high death magic levels, but no blood, and Ngagspa have Death and Blood at 1, and a chance to have of these two at 2, but not both), or Water and/or Nature. I'm trying to fix the cost of summons to a quite high amount of gems/blood slaves, but not TOO high ;) (I've changed the cost about 6-8 times as for now, and I think I've found a good amount for each summon).

7) I've lowered the leadership of Dmag Dpon and Rje (respectively 40/80).

8) As for being thematic...

- I try to make units according to the documentation I found (tibetan seemed to have very good heavy cavalry, the chinese feared them a lot; they also had quite heavy infantry, and often wielded spears or swords; They also had light infantry and cavalry, in Shangri La the Bhödpa; BTW, Bhödpa means "people of Bhöd", "inhabitant of Bhöd", and Böd is tibetan for... Tibet !). I gave units tibetan names: Rta Pa means "horseman" or "mounted soldier" in tibetan, Dmag Hrag is "capable soldier", Mda Pa is "soldier armed with bow & arrows", dmag dpon means "army commander"; Nyingmapa, Karmapa & Gelug (or Gelugpa) are actual sects (understand "school") of tibetan buddhism (Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th & actual Dalai Lama, is a Gelugpa); Ngagspa is a word used for example by Alexandra David-Néel to name a sorcerer or magic-user, etc...

- Tibetan mages were famed for their great powers, they were also greatly feared by their neighbours. It is why I gave Shangrilan mages such high levels in magic (and also because many great & famous lamas were reputed to have great spiritual powers or to be great wizards or sorcerers), and many of them are priests, with high levels in holy magics, 'cause Tibet is a theocraty (priests rule and have a VERY great influence, even in everyday life) & lamas are said to possess magical knowledge.

- Magic diversity : it seems that tibetans are obsessed with magic, sorcerers & demons. Lamas are said to have spiritual powers (they are able to send their spirit across great distances, to foretell the future or see distant places, etc...), so Astral magic seems to fit in. They also inhabit a rocky mountain land (air for heights & earth for the mountains), and tibetan mages are said to be able to send messages "across the air", use illusions, may make their body as hard as rock or steel and have some powers over the land (including earthquakes or landslides, it seems). Reincarnation, strange burial rites ("sky burial") and medium-trances to comunicate with the deceased ones, all this made me include death magic. Tibetan exorcists uses fire against demons (Padmasambhava used it against the theu'rangs and against the deity/demon Pehar) and mystics use technics based on "inner fire", so I gave a bit of fire magic ('cause I couldn't give 'em a lot) to Demon Hunters. Finally, evil spells, necromancy, curses and summoning of demons and other wicked beasts (Death, again, & blood) are common when you speak about tibetan sorcerers. Even milarepa, the poet & buddhist ascet, first learned "dark magics" & used it to send a giant scorpion to crush the house of his family's enemies (who said "Bind Scorpion Beast" ?)...


(My post is almost as long as HoneyBadger's one :p )

[Aezeal]

Well I think your changes are a good step.. it's still pretty strong but more balanced now though probably still a bit overpowered. It still has a lot of powerfull aspects, no real weaknesses except not having a good SC chassis.

Nice nation, GL with it

[HoneyBadger]

Thematically, you're doing great, and sorry, I thought this had been changed to EA-:rolleyes: :)
So my bad there. I don't honestly have that much experience with MA, or LA, I'm an EA player, for the most part, atleast that's what I'm used to.

Anyway, I didn't mean that the theme itself was off, just that there are ways to take a theme, and introduce it to the game mechanics-like your great example for "bind scorpion beast".

Magical diversity also isn't necessarily a problem, it just becomes a problem when you've got too much and too powerful. It sounds like you're giving that some consideration, though, and that's good.

Here's a few thoughts:
One way to balance these guys out would be to remove some of their Movement (as in Provinces-per-Turn). Tibetan armour might have been known and renouned as far away as Arabia, but the Tibetans themselves don't seem to have wandered terribly far away from Chomolungma. Not every 3 needs to be a 2, or every 2 reduced to 1, but if you made your horsemen a 2, and your crossbowmen a 1, it would do a lot for balance (and not make them quite as crossbow-crazy as every other MA nation), and also give more reason to use your archers.

Also, your yak-riders are both awesome and terrible. There's really no reason in the world to buy a horseman, with yaks around. But, other than the Gore replacing the Hoof, they're currently interchangeable with horsemen. If it were me (and it's not, I know), I'd take away all of your horse-mounted units' Mountainwalk ability, and just give it to the yaks, which I would then make "No need to Eat" (to better represent the Tibetan treasure-trove that is a yak), and give Stealth (0) to-along with a Gold-hike. You might even put your Rta-Pa on yaks, since that would further single them out from all the other heavy calvalry running around in MA, and give them "No Need to Eat" too-although I don't know that I'd go so far as to give them Stealth. Yak secondform is also a possibility-Some riderless yaks (animals) running around the battlefield would be interesting. I'd give the yaks (only, not the riders) NNE + Supply (2)--giving your army a little food-boost in those hostile wastelands they like to live in--which opens up the possibility of making recruitable yaks. Armies traveling around with herds of yaks would definitely distinguish them from other nations :)

[Nounours]

One way to balance these guys out would be to remove some of their Movement (as in Provinces-per-Turn). Tibetan armour might have been known and renouned as far away as Arabia, but the Tibetans themselves don't seem to have wandered terribly far away from Chomolungma. Not every 3 needs to be a 2, or every 2 reduced to 1, but if you made your horsemen a 2, and your crossbowmen a 1, it would do a lot for balance (and not make them quite as crossbow-crazy as every other MA nation), and also give more reason to use your archers.

I will consider reducing heavy cavalry movement. For crossbowmen, I have augmented their movement so much that now they are in LA :p (yep, they are so fast they travel through eras :D !), so no more crossbow in MA, I think. But perhaps a special-crossbowman unit in LA (:DI was thinking in something like the chinese Chu-Ko-Nu, or repeating crossbow : less powerful than ordinary crossbow, thus less damage, not armor-piercing, but poisoned, as it was often the case historically...)


yak-riders are both awesome and terrible. There's really no reason in the world to buy a horseman, with yaks around. But, other than the Gore replacing the Hoof, they're currently interchangeable with horsemen. If it were me (and it's not, I know), I'd take away all of your horse-mounted units' Mountainwalk ability, and just give it to the yaks, which I would then make "No need to Eat" (to better represent the Tibetan treasure-trove that is a yak), and give Stealth (0) to-along with a Gold-hike.:)

Yeah, I already had remover mountain survival from cavalry, so I agree entirelly :D, but NNE for a yack ? I would give it supplybonus instead (It eat, but less than a horse, and is a potential source of food). Stealthy yack ? Don't know...

"Hey, man, is it a yack I've just seem ?" "Yeah, and what ? Everybody knows that we Abysians/Agarthan/jotuns/Bandar/(fill in with your favorite nation name) have huge herds of yacks, so it's all normal to see yacks here..."

No, I guess even a bakemeno is not stupid enough not to note a yack...

BTW, I'll PERHAPS include a Yack summon... just for fun (and to use some yack graphics I initially made for yack-riders)...

[HoneyBadger]

Well...I don't think crossbows are out of place in MA. And if you *don't* give them crossbows in some form, that'll be a bit of a handicap for them... I'm all for them having crossbows, and if they're non-capital, they would be a great defensive boost for fortresses even with the movement penalty.

And I was thinking more along the lines of yaks not themselves being stealthy, but rather yak+rider equals a unit that can choose the harshest terrain, and then spring out at an enemy, undetected, from a direction they might not have thought possible. More like a stealthy, clever raider, than an invisible yak :) The yak by itself wouldn't have any Stealth, and I don't think the elite calvalry should get stealth, even if they're riding a yak--only that specific unit.

As far as NNE goes-my logic was that the rider would be living off the yak, so no need to eat for that rider, other than yak milk, which I understand is very nutritious. Take the rider away, and the yak, since it doesn't have to work so hard carrying the rider around, can then not only feed itself, but produce enough milk to feed 2 other people, instead of just 1.

[Nounours]

Ok for crossbows, I think it's not unthematic, but for yacks, I keep on thinking that they NEED to eat, it's just that they don't eat a lot : in a starving army, yack will still have to eat, and can suffer from starvation if there is absolutly no food (for example sake, let's say we are in a province with death scale at 3, scarse population, almost no food and a BIG army), so YES they can feed extra people, but they can die from starving because there is no grass to graze on, and even if their riders eat better than their fellow soldiers, they still don't have much to eat.

So, I think I will give 'em supplybonus instead of NNE...

[Sombre]

[QUOTE=HoneyBadger;640218]
But perhaps a special-crossbowman unit in LA (:DI was thinking in something like the chinese Chu-Ko-Nu, or repeating crossbow : less powerful than ordinary crossbow, thus less damage, not armor-piercing, but poisoned, as it was often the case historically...)


Be aware that neither shield nor armour protects against missile weapon poison. So you'll be giving them a powerful anti heavy infantry weapon.

[HoneyBadger]

That actually wasn't my suggestion, Sombre, that was from Nounours.

I'm aware of the poison bug-as I'm involved in making African mods, I have to be (Aksum historically didn't use poisoned weapons, so I only gave one to their scout, who's a foreigner, but most African nations seem to have used poison arrows, javelins, even poison swords. The Razor wife's 'Ida' sword, I originally considered making poisoned, since Idas were not only razor sharp, they poisoned them *and* coated them with hot pepper oil, which, as you can imagine, made for a pretty awful wound.).

[Nounours]

Be aware that neither shield nor armour protects against missile weapon poison. So you'll be giving them a powerful anti heavy infantry weapon.

Yes, I know about poison.
But historically, Chu-Ko-Nu was often poisoned because it's not a powerful weapon. It fired small bolts, the range was shorter than normal crossbow, and it lacked power to go through heavy armor. It was not even very accurate. The main advantage was its fire rate (about ten bolts in 15 seconds). So, it was not very useful against well protected troops, safe, of course, if you'd poisoned your bolts.

Some historical details here :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow

Thus, I think I will make two version of the Chu-Ko-Nu in LA Shangri La :

- normal Chu-Ko-Nu, with damage 9 (no strength added, of course), range 30 (even less than a bow, because I think bolts are too light to go as far as normal ones), Att 0 (less accurate than normal crossbow), ammo 6 (in fact 12 bolts, but you fire 2/round, so you can fire only 6 times), and 2 attacks/round (to represent high fire rate), NO armor-piercing.

- heavy Chu-Ko-Nu, with damage 6 (no strength added), range 25, Att 0, ammo 6, and 2 attacks/round, NO armor-piercing, BUT weak poison.

[Sombre]

So, it was not very useful against well protected troops, safe, of course, if you'd poisoned your bolts.


Well only if it can penetrate far enough to actually come in contact with the flesh. By giving one weak poison it will penetrate through the heaviest magical plate armour, black steel tower shields etc

I understand it's the best solution you can come up with though.

I'm looking for a way to get around the poison arrow problem via mod commands. I'll let you know.

[HoneyBadger]

I'd try dividing the poison damage and the arrow damage into two separate weapons-the arrow might do 3, 5, 7, whatever damage, which in the case of crossbows would be AP, while the poison weapon might only do 1 or 2 or 3 non-AP damage (depending on the bow used--or if you want to be really slick, the type of ammunition), and then add weak poison to the second weapon, but reduce the Precision for that one, so less poison would actually get through. So you'd have your first arrow calculating hits at say 10 Prec., while the poison element would be flying at 6 Prec, and not doing nearly as much damage, none of which would be AP, but when it *did* hit, it would automatically do Weak Poison.

[Nounours]

In fact, I was planning to mod the poison as a secondary effect (#50, according to the mod manual), so, if I understand it well, units who are not harmed by the bolt will not get poisoned...

On the other hand, I really think that Chu-Ko-Nu should not be armor-piercing, due to the lack of power of lightweight bolts, which are quite uneffective against heavy armor.


BTW, I've finished modding Gangs Senge (Snow Lions) & Klu (water spirits, similar to hindu Nagas), and finished the sprites of Citipatis ("Lord of the cemetery", demons who have the form of dancing skeletons and punish thieves).

[Sombre]

In fact, I was planning to mod the poison as a secondary effect (#50, according to the mod manual), so, if I understand it well, units who are not harmed by the bolt will not get poisoned...


No. Like I said before, the poison will ignore shields and armour, regardless of whether the arrow does. So long as the arrow lands on the unit the poison will hit, even if the arrow is parried by a shield.

So an Androphag archer is the perfect counter to Ulmish heavy infantry. Which makes no sense.

[Aezeal]

Sombre is that so? isn't it because the poison in the game now is modded as secondary always effect?

[Endoperez]

Sombre is that so? isn't it because the poison in the game now is modded as secondary always effect?

If I understood the bug correctly, secondary effect is handled as secondary effect always, or at least something pretty close.

Any way, it's impossible to mod poison arrows that aren't affected by the bug. Well, at least no as no one has managed to do it.

[Sombre]

Adding poison as #secondaryeffect has exactly the same effect as adding it as #secondaryeffectalways.

There may still be a mod solution. I will look at it today, right now in fact, with chameleon skink poisoned blowpipes. I think if I have a weapon with secondaryeffect of a 1 dmg weapon with the poison as a secondaryeffect of that, it might work out.

Honestly though I think secondaryeffect will always take effect if the target is hit, whether it's parried or not or breaks prot or not. The difference being secondaryeffectalways doesn't require a hit, so a big aoe effect will still go off even if the projectile completely misses, or the sword swing is dodged by the def stat.

[Aezeal]

ow that is what I thought to.. requiring a hit.. you where talking about parry and I totally forgot (and didn't know) what it was about.