Somebody DEFINE the 50% refit rule please?!?

[CW]

I need a DEFINITION for the 50% rule. This is my current understanding:

The TOTAL COST (mineral + organic + radioactive) of the new design must be within +/- 50% of the total cost of the original design.

Can anyone confirm it?

[Coal]

From what I understand, if the new design costs 50% more resource points than the original, then you can't refit it.

Now, what the original design would be, Im not sure. I think it's the current ship's design that is the original.
Example:
You have an Omega MkIII cruiser. You design a new MkIV class. I THINK the original would be the MkIII, and not the MkI.
(thinks a minute)
Yeah, the original would be the current ship design. If the original was the MkI of the class, you'd never be able to upgrade, since all future ship types would be way over 50% of the original.

(double checks post, gets confused, decides it's ok, hits submit)

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Rules? What rules?

My summer home on the web (http://www.coal.50megs.com)

[CW]

Okay alright, let me rephrase it:

The TOTAL COST (mineral + organic + radioactive) of the new design must be within +/- 50% of the total cost of the current design.

Now I need confirmation on the term "total cost".

[geoschmo]

Total cost is the sum of all three resouces. You are correct.

Geoschmo

[Coal]

Sorry if my answer was a little complex. Was trying to cover as much as I knew.

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Rules? What rules?

My summer home on the web (http://www.coal.50megs.com)

[Will]

I thought it was the cost of any is over 150% the original in just that resource...

Meaning, if you have a ship that costs 10.000/2.000/3.000, then retrofit it to something costing 14.000/3.500/4.000, it can't be done because the organic cost must be three thousand or less.

And I'm fairly sure there isn't a -50% in there. So with the above example, you could retrofit that to something costing 1.000/1.000/1.000 with no problem. The only reason the rule was put in was to prevent building a cheap ship then retrofitting to a very expensive ship (less time to build). Total cost wouldn't cover this, since someone could attempt to even out the costs of everything, then retrofit to something heavy in only one resource (10k/10k/10k to 43k/1k/1k for example). -50% wouldn't apply since there is no "cheat" for doing something like that.

That's what I think anyway, I haven't been able to play for approximately 2 months because my personal computer isn't exactly working http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

Oh, and geo is right too. Total cost would mean all three added together http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Dragonlord]

I thought so too but then I noticed something odd...I thought the cost of the components mattered...so:
I had a wormhole opener that cost roughly 70k minerals. I design a better one with more range for opening wormholes, which costs about the same to build, but the component being retrofitted costs about 50k.
So the retrofit cost is 50K which is more than 50% of 70k, so it shouldn't work, but it did..I could succesfully retrofit. (contrary to what I expected).

Alright now I have confused myself...what exactly is the retrofit rule?

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So the retrofit cost is 50K which is more than 50% of 70k, so it shouldn't work, but it did..I could succesfully retrofit. (contrary to what I expected).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dude. 50% more.

If your ships had to cost half as much as the original, they'd be getting smaller every time you retrofit! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

50% more of 70K is 105K

And, yes, total resources is the measuring stick for the 50% rule.

Retro series can be used to get around some build time problems, but they bring in their own difficulties.

If the retrofit series is more than 2 designs long, you end up paying more then you would if you built it straight from the shipyard.

EDIT:
As an example, doing a retroseries from a 9000 point ship/base (buildable in one turn at 3000 each resource) way up to a 100,000 point (any distribution) beast, will cost you 200,000 resources on the second turn.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 04 September 2001).]

[tesco samoa]

which goes hand in hand with a solid economic base.

To keep it under the 50% rule just retro one to 2 types of componets at a time or less than 8 components.

This works great with stellar manu ships.

All comes down to style.



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L? GdX $ Fr C++ SdT T+ Sf* Tcp+ A M++ MpTM ROTS Pw+ Fq+ Nd Rp++ G+

[Nitram Draw]

I'm pretty sure it's by resource. No more than a 50% increase in any resource.

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm pretty sure it's by resource. No more than a 50% increase in any resource.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I am totally certain that it is total. (At least in SE4 1.35; I can't run 1.41)

I have a "LC-Base" design that is balanced in resource cost.
I retro to a somewhat balanced "LC -10K"
I retro to a mineral heavy "LC -15K"
...
I retro to my final desired ship, and wait for the repairs to kick in.

[geoschmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am totally certain that it is total. (At least in SE4 1.35; I can't run 1.41)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's total in 1.41 as well. It's been total ever since the limit was imposed way back during the twingalaxies tourney. Aaron threw it in a patch at the request of the twingalaxies guys to keep people from abusing the retrofit to get astronomical scores.

Geoschmo

[Nitram Draw]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geoschmo:
I am totally certain that it is total. (At least in SE4 1.35; I can't run 1.41)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's total in 1.41 as well. It's been total ever since the limit was imposed way back during the twingalaxies tourney. Aaron threw it in a patch at the request of the twingalaxies guys to keep people from abusing the retrofit to get astronomical scores.

Geoschmo

Are you sure about that? I've been unable to upgrade to designs that cost less total resources but more than 50% of a specific resource. I'm using 1.41.

[geoschmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Are you sure about that? I've been unable to upgrade to designs that cost less total resources but more than 50% of a specific resource. I'm using 1.41.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I am as sure as I can be, having done it. Do you have a savegame where you can duplicate what you are seeing?

Geo

[Nitram Draw]

I'll check. If not I'll and write down the two designs. I won't be able to get it for a few days.

[geoschmo]

Okay. I have a design I used in a recent game (ver. 1.41) where I retrofitted the following:

------------------Design 1---------------Design 2--------Difference
Minerals...................12750.................. .21180..............166%
Organics.....................200.................. ...2500...........12,500%
Rads.........................6460................. ....4960................77%

Total........................19410................ ....28640..............147%

I think that pretty much clears it up, no? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 04 September 2001).]