Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]

[Zeldor]

Here comes the biggest team game of the Fall, or maybe even of that year. I had plans to do it for some time and here it comes.

Rules are simple:
- 12 teams of 2 players
- you start near each other and kill everyone around [well, almost]

Map:
- modified World of Geometry by Twan [2 starting water locations are changed into land ones, most of water is changed with land, every team of 2 starts in a valley you see, one player near caves, one near rich plains, every team has same amount of starting land, that is about 12-15 provinces, you need to take out indie garrisons to get to other players, caves or plains]
- link: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=41261
- updated tga file: http://www.mediafire.com/?7h12ypdmnix

Mods:
- Conceptual Balance Mod 1.3 complete - http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=39679
- All Era mod - http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6299&d=1212179279
- Banned Spells - http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?p=653551
- Llama's Streamers and Standards - http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=39989

Hosting:
- PBEM on llamaserver [when it gets working again]

Game settings:
- Indies: standard, Middle Age
- Magic Sites: 60
- Gold: 150
- Resources: 150
- Research: Normal
- HoF: 15
- Renaming: On
- Score graphs: On

Banned Spells:
- Utterdark
- Astral Corruption
- Arcane Nexus
- Burden of Time

Victory Conditions:
- controling 12/26 VPs
- every capitol is 1 VP
- central island is 2 VPs

Team choosing:
- you have 10 - TEN points to spend on nations, you pick who starts near caves and who starts near plains [I am still working on the map and I will release it next week so you can see how it looks like, but take a look at WoG for now, it will be really similar]

Nation ratings [with points a nation is worth - I want 3! sets of nations from every team, sorted by preference]:

Ea Arco: 5
Ea Ermor: 4 - taken
Ea Ulm: 5
Ea Marverni: 2
Ea Sauromatia: 6 - taken
Ea TC: 5
Ea Mictlan: 7 - taken
Ea Aby: 5 - taken
Ea Caelum: 7
Ea C'tis: 3 - taken
Ea Pan: 4
Ea Agartha: 3 - taken
Ea Tir Na Og: 5
Ea Fomoria: 6
Ea Vanhiem: 7 - taken
Ea Helhiem: 8
Ea Niefelhiem: banned
Ea Kailasa: 3 - taken
Ea Yomi: 3 - taken
Ea Hinnom: banned
Ea Lanka: 8 - taken
Ma Pythium: 6 - taken
Ma Man: 3
Ma Ulm: 3 - taken
Ma Ermor: 7 - taken
Ma Arco: 6
Ma Marignon: 4 - taken
Ma Mictlan: 5
Ma Mackaka: 5
Ma Agartha: 2
Ma Aby: 4
Ma Caelum: 5 - taken
Ma C'tis: 4 - taken
Ma Pan: 4
Ma Van: 7
Ma Jotun: 6
Ma Bandar log: 5 - taken
Ma Shinuyama: 4
Ma Ashdod: banned
Ma Eriu: 5
Ma T'ien Ch'i: 4
La Arco: 5
La Man: 4
La Ulm: 5
La Mari: 5 - taken
La Mictlan: 7 - taken
La TC: 6
La Jomon: 1 - taken
La Agatha: 5
La Aby: 3 - taken
La Caelum: 5 - taken
La Ctis: 4
La Pan: 5
La Midgard: 6 - taken
La Urgard: 6 - taken
La Patala: 3
La Gath: 8
La Atlantis: 4
La Pythium: 5
La Bogarus: 4 - taken
La Ermor: banned

Teaming Rules: [may be relieved if we don't have enough people]
- no hardcore teaming [so 2 of the best of the best cannot play in one team]
- no newbies [unless teamed with experienced player]

Rules are simple, they rather won't be changed [but I may always take suggestions into consideration]. You can sign whole teams [but 2 people should post here declaring participation] or search a teammate in that thread.

Signed up so far:
1. coobe (???) -ferrosol (nkican)

EA Vanheim - MA Ulm

2. atul-evilhomer

LA Abysia - LA Midgard

3. wingeddog-pretorian

EA Yomi + EA Mictlan

4. phalent-apsophos

EA C'tis - LA Marignon

5. gregstrom-DrP

MA Bandar Log + EA Abysia

6. Ossa - vfb

MA MAri + EA Sauromatia

7. namad-fungalreason

LA Utgard - LA Bogarus

8. JimMorrison-MadFrancis

LA Jomon - EA Lanka

9. Micah-QM

MA Caelum - LA Caelum

10. chrispedersen-Kheldron

EA Agartha + LA Mictlan

11. otthegreat-Denisius

MA Pythium + MA C'tis

12. PsiSoldier-executor

EA Kailasa + MA Ermor

[coobe]

searching a teammate for this... willing to play something weaker

[Zeldor]

Nation ratings are made by QM [thanks :)] and are based on specific conditions and are surely not perfect. There is a big probability they will be slightly tweaked.

[Omnirizon]

I'm in

do we pick nations now?

I will tentatively go with Kailasa.

I can be on coobe's team, or someone else.

[Zeldor]

When you get a team one of team members sends me a PM with 3 nation sets. Points may change slightly, but you can start thinking about some basic ideas.

[Gregstrom]

If the game will go to 48h relatively quickly (15-20 turns?), I'd like to join. I'm just about beyond the newbie stage.

[Apsophos]

I'd like to play in this, I don't know if I'll be able te contact my potential teammate before monday, I hope the game won't be full by then.

[Zeldor]

Gregstrom:

Rather closer to turn 25, at least 20.

Apsophos:

I think it will be rather 2-3 weeks till game starts, probably one week to get people in, then some time to get them into teams, pick nations, create pretenders...

[archaeolept]

hmmm an interesting idea... I'd prefer some sort of bid system for nations though

also, as I've barely played Dom III, I count as a noob :)

[Omnirizon]

hmmm an interesting idea... I'd prefer some sort of bid system for nations though

also, as I've barely played Dom III, I count as a noob :)

the bid system might be best. if someone else is trying to assign the values of each nation, it becomes rather contrived because no one can actually envision all possible contextualities, and it is quite easy to read through the list and see what nations are undervalued if only because they pair phenomenally well some other nation.

the single place were there actually is a 'wisdom of the masses' is in bids and betting. we are calculating risk taking animals.

on the downside, teams with players experienced with many nations would have a strong advantage, because they would be in a position to make the most accurate bids.

We would have to have two rounds of bidding: one for the first nation and another for the second. I like this idea better than coming up with three pairs too, because then teams really feel in more control of what they get. An adjudicator having to pour through 12 teams with three pairs each would have to make subjective calls, and the way the teams and nations coalesced could be questioned; no matter how even handed the adjudicator.

if there is a tie during a round, the tied teams can be asked if they wish to up their bid. the highest bidder wins. if there are still ties after a second round, teams are asked again. if during any of the tie breaker rounds all teams decline increasing their bid, then that nation is randomly assigned to one of those teams at whatever their most recent bid was.

this also guarantees the points work out perfect. with assigned values it may prove impossible to give each team a 10-value setup.

[JimMorrison]

Doing an auction could be verrrry interesting, I'm all for that.

However! If it sticks to the original format, I am powerless to turn away from this thread.....

I would like to play Jomon, and hopefully game doesn't actually start until after patch. :angel This means under the original format, I am looking for a partner who wants to take Hinnom or Niefelheim - so if you see taking Jomon as "jumping on the grenade", then you need look no further for your wingman, if you want to rock out with your giant out. :happy:

[Lingchih]

Team games are generally random. It is hell to try and arrange all the teams based on player preferences. Everyone signs up, then teams are assigned. We broke that rule a bit in Revenge of Pimping, since it was a continuation type game from a game that had ended because of a dead server.

Forgive me if this has been said before. I did not read the whole thread.

[JimMorrison]

Team games are generally random...
Forgive me if this has been said before. I did not read the whole thread.

I'm guessing you didn't even read the first post. ;)

[Evilhomer]

I am willing to play in this one. Do you wish to team with me Jim ?

[Ossa]

Anyone else searching for a teammate?

[coobe]

hm thought homer want to team with me, but apparently not so im still searching :) pm me

[Ferrosol]

I am willing to team up with Coobe for this game.

[WingedDog]

Me and my buddy Pretorian are willing to join as a team.

[fungalreason]

This sounds interesting. I'm also looking for a teammate, please pm.

[Zeldor]

I know nothing can be perfect. Bidding system was one suggestions, but rather not good for a game with so many players [as there are just few nations people would really want to bid for]. I think we may introduce one more things - bonus for choosing combination of nations with less than 10 points total. I'd have to ask llamabeast what bonus is possible [like more design points or gold or gems or some item].

Remember - that game will be quite bloody, especially on plains. 150% gold gives you a lot of gold for armies, so you can make a slaughter fest for plains, which are really rich and high pop.

[Evilhomer]

Uhmn, I am happy to team with you coobe (just didnt receive any answers so started to fish for alternatives). But sure, lets team up - Write an pm to me what nations you are interested in.

[Gregstrom]

I think we may introduce one more things - bonus for choosing combination of nations with less than 10 points total. I'd have to ask llamabeast what bonus is possible [like more design points or gold or gems or some item].


Ooh, that sounds like real fun. I guess a custom mod giving the nations in question some appropriate advantage? Design points would be easy, as would items I believe. What would the Jomon/Marverni dream team be worth? :D


Oh yeah - I'm definitely in. If anyone wants to team with a somewhat inexperienced player, pm or just post in the thread.

[Omnirizon]

I guess I should voice that I am against Hinnom being in this game at all, and possibly the other new nations.

as is, ONLY jomon could even be paired with Hinnom. This raises an important point:
is there any other combination that could possibly compete with this?

* gold and gems are completely plastic. even the weakest nation paired with Hinnom would just be built to solely support Hinnom by supplying them with gold and gems.

or

* would giving Hinnom/Ashdod/Gath the weakest nations leave any other nations to be paired with the other superpowers that would not lead to other powers being completely overpowered? ie, we give all the weakest nations to H/A/G, whose left to pair with Neif and Lanka and others that would not leave them overpowered?

essentially, the plasticity of gold/gems and the lack of underpowered enough nations combined with quite a few already well overpowered nations means that including the Hinnom et al nations in the mix is just too much power to be absorbed. I think the overall game balance would be preserved by disallowing them.

[Zeldor]

Omnirizon:

I think that with that points both Hinnom and Niefel are almost as banned. I would not recommend anyone pairing with Jomon as a team, just pick smth fair :) And if you want Jomon you can get some free stuff for spare points. Even letting that 2 nations as a single whole team would be bad [and defying team game idea].

[Omnirizon]

I know nothing can be perfect. Bidding system was one suggestions, but rather not good for a game with so many players [as there are just few nations people would really want to bid for]. I think we may introduce one more things - bonus for choosing combination of nations with less than 10 points total. I'd have to ask llamabeast what bonus is possible [like more design points or gold or gems or some item].

Remember - that game will be quite bloody, especially on plains. 150% gold gives you a lot of gold for armies, so you can make a slaughter fest for plains, which are really rich and high pop.

actually, the size of the game is what makes the bidding system preferred. there are three reasons:

1) on assigned point system, many teams may end up picking the same combos and

2) as is, someone has to adjudicate the nation choices, and their are some combos which are just phenomenally better than others, and they will have to give those to someone. lastly

3), related to point 2, with a bidding system it will be VERY costly if not impossible to get preferred combos, because many players will be gunning for certain ones. one nation of that combo will become too costly for it to become paired with the other half, making that combo unattainable. the bidding system will force the mixing up of combos, and making getting a _planned_ combo much more difficult. it will actually create more diverse combos because it confounds the easy getting of very planned combos that many teams might go for. With adjudicators, _someone_ will get that perfect planned combo. with bidding, that combo might become ungettable because other teams will overbid one half of it. Even if you say as adjudicator that you will just disallow the overpowered combos, you can't possibly think through all overpowered combos. each team only has to think of one and then submit it, and it may be a phenomenal combo that you hadn't thought of, and you will give it to them for rather cheap. the bidding system will confound this completely. and it doesn't require an adjudicator's oversighting.

Highly planned combos defeat the purpose of a team game. For example Lanka might just combo with Maverni and have Maverni blood hunt their capital to extinction and give all the slaves to Lanka, when the capital is finished, Lanka just takes it and the other half of the team leaves the game. There is no real team work, just a highly specified and planned combo designed to boost and already superpowered nation that really doesn't benefit from having any particular teammate except to provide them with extra gold and slaves to help boost them in the early game.

If you want to go with your assigned point system and someone overseeing and choosing each teams assignment that's your prerogative, but I had always thought you were anti-communist.

[Omnirizon]

Last thing:

teams should NOT start out next to each other. in fact, using a map like geometry, we should start teams out on OPPOSITE sides. this completely removes the benefit very powerful nations would gain from teaming with very weak ones and just using the weak nation as their *****. with the two teams seperated, other teams would just gang the weak halves very quickly and remove that benefit.

thus, with opposite starting positions, the problem of overpowered not really being harmed by pairing with underpowered is removed.

[Zeldor]

Omnirizon:

And bid with what? If you have interesting solution I could make it as a part [for a situation when multiple people want same nations].

And situation with Lanka/Marverni you described would result in him getting turned AI. There are tactics and there are abuses too. It's a team game, not a single player with other one getting leeched. I will just admin that game so I will be able to check if bad things happen.

We have 24 players and about 50 nations to choose. It should work fine :)

P.S. to your edit: I surely won't change that, that is my vision of the game, one near caves, one near plains. As I said before - I expect people to play fair and play it like a team game.

[JimMorrison]

I sort of thought that, barring a random distribution, placing the teams adjacent is the fairest way to go about it. Otherwise, there is no incentive to even take a nation that is perceived as weaker, because you neighbors will just rush you, knowing with absolute certainty you will die alone.

As far as my first post, I spoke to my roommate who has decided to finally purchase another copy of the game and he wanted to partner with me - with his first choice as Niefelheim, and as a rather inexperienced MP player.

I sort of thought the dynamics of the point system were already thought through to some extent, as far as that it's obvious that with Hinnom and Nief at 9, they ONLY partner either could get, would be Jomon.


Zeldor - I think in a bidding system, you would just give each team a budget as well (for bidding, something higher like 100 points would make it more dynamic), and then there would be an auction for the most sought after nations, and those who got very powerful first nations, would likely pay so much that they'd have to take "the kid who gets picked last" for their second choice. With 10 the range of bids would be too restricted - you might get f teams bidding 7 on a nation, with none wanting to go up to 8, not sure it would be nice to just random it off. I don't know, it seems this is all getting so much more complicated than the original post.

I had been planning to run a team game at some point in the future. What I had meant to do, was pair nations up beforehand. They wouldn't be random, nor would you choose what nation was paired with what, you would just choose the pairing that you wanted.

Fully random just seems like a horrible way to go. Not only do you deliberately not avoid overpowered combos, but you add in a great risk of people getting badly uncomplimentary combos. Imagine an Eriu/LA Man pair - 2 rather weak nations with access to only a couple of magic paths. They'd be dead before the game even started.


Ultimately, any setup is going to have its flaws. Arguing against a system doesn't do any good, if you can't present a system that is not significantly better. The major flaw with the bidding system, is the effort involved to make it really work. Just doing it as a single blind wouldn't be as exciting, and would be horribly time consuming - but it's not like we'll be able to hold a live auction for them either. (Bear in mind in single-blind bidding, if we had an auction once a day, we'd have to 3 nations each day just to get the game going within 3 weeks from now. The more nations you run at a time, the faster it goes, but the less fair and interesting it becomes.)

[DrPraetorious]

Sounds like fun. I'm not sure why we need CBM if we're also assigning points values to nations - but I'll give it a shot. Am I correct in understanding - the only team-mate allowed for Niefelheim is Jomon? :)

I'll team with anyone and I'll take the weaker nation in the pair

[Omnirizon]

I had missed the part in the OP where teams would be seperated..

with that done, the point system is much more suffurable, because each player is force to play for their own nation, and building a highly specialized combo becomes much more difficult to pull off.

we still do face the issue of subjective assignment of points and nations though. bidding i must admit isn't perfect here either because one nation may go unbid on and a team may take a chance and bid low on it, and get it real cheap. but blind bidding will make it so the most powerful nations go at appropriate prices, and underpowered nations go cheap. for example, in your current system you have machaka at 5 points? that is WAY overvalued. no one in their right mind will opt for that nation at that price. There is a host of other nations on that list that are cheaper than machaka that are in so many situation equal to if not more powerful than them.

with bidding, a nation's _subjective_ value becomes very important. a nation which you or quantum objectively believe are cheap may become very valuable to a certain team for a specific quality of that nation. In order to secure it, they will bid high on it. not to wax theoretical, but a bidding system is a fusion of objective and subjective; such that one cannot undermine the other. with you and quantum setting objective prices, the subjective value of that nation may be much higher than your objective price, and that nation becomes a steal for some team. the bidding system helps prevent that.

but i guess I'm happy either way, because I think any system is exploitable. I just think the bidding system is a little less so if only because there is no one person deciding on what is worth what and it overall is a little more transparent.

[Omnirizon]

Sounds like fun. I'm not sure why we need CBM if we're also assigning points values to nations - but I'll give it a shot. Am I correct in understanding - the only team-mate allowed for Niefelheim is Jomon? :)

I'll team with anyone and I'll take the weaker nation in the pair

actually, jomon is the only possible teamate for at least one other nation too, which is why i am advocating strongly for the disallowing of that one other nation *cough* Hinnom *cough* *cough*

Zeldor, we can already see how at least half the current people/teams claiming nations are going for the very powerful teamed with a very underpowerd. It is like I said, due to the plasticity of gold/gems and power, there isn't a whole lot of disadvantage to forcing very powerful nations to team with underpowered ones. Unless we disallow inter-team trading, there is simply no way to find a bright line where a 'tactic' becomes an 'abuse'. Starting nations at opposite sides helps alleviate the problem, but there is no possible way to police the abuse of the team system where one nation is just the ***** of the other; we simply can't define where the inter-team cooperation and trading becomes one just being the other's *****.

[Zeldor]

DrP:

I am more and more inclined towards banning Niefel as they are really overpowered. Even with Jomon as teammate. And as people here are supporting that opinion I may just oficially do it.

Omnirizon:

Nah, you start next to each other. One near caves, one near plains, so pretty much it is every nation fighting. But one has to expand into caves and fight there and other into plains. Theoretically you can make some other ways, but then other nations gets stuck with just 4-6 provs and won't be able to really help.

[atul]

I wanna join too if there's still room.

No teammate or nation preferences, anyone want to team up with harmless "less-than-10-actual-dom3-games" player? *blinkblink*

Lets dance.

[WingedDog]

May I make the first claim of nations?
Team: WingedDog & Pretorian
Nations: Yomi (3) & LA Caelum (5) with total of 8 points

I'll post the other two picks later.

[Pretorian]

May I make the first claim of nations?
Team: WingedDog & Pretorian
Nations: Yomi (3) & LA Caelum (5) with total of 8 points

I'll post the other two picks later.

I'll play in one team with this doggy ...sorry, winged doggy :))

[Evilhomer]

You think Niefel is more overpowered than Hinnom ? Both are early game monsters, but Hinnom is just better in the later parts of the game.

Anyway it seems that ONLY one of these two nations will be in the game, so its probably oki. As to this "feeding" the stronger nation strategy, it seems really dull and I doubt it will be done.

[WingedDog]

Look at the first page - Hinnom is already banned.

[Zeldor]

Evilhomer:

Nah, I think Hinnom is stronger than Niefel, but both of them are way overpowered, even when compared to nations like Lanka. And team game makes them even stronger as it is easy to get an ally that will just work for them, not with them.

WingedDog:

Send nation choices via PM :)

[Evilhomer]

I am teamed up with atul now zeldor. Will there be any benefits for picking teams with less than 10 p total, if so, what will that be ?

[Zeldor]

Evilhomer:

There may be some, hard to say what as I'd have to check what is really possible. Probably easiest to add would be some inceased pop or gold making site next to capitol. But it should rather be granted to people that have 2+ free points or are left with some bad nation choices [but that shouldn't happen]. I'd prefer [as I'm lazy :)] that everyone just makes 9-10 point teams and there is no need for any bonuses. Ratings are not 100% accurate anyway, you could easily argue that said nation should be +1 or -1.

[DrPraetorious]

I'll team up with anyone who wants a partner - just send me a PM.

I'll also do whatever nation my ally wishes.

[atul]

Just to clarify:

I want 3! sets of nations from every team, sorted by preference]:

Do you want these 3 sets contain all different nations, or can I (should I adamantly wish so) ask for one from the set of (MA Agartha, Nation X), (MA Agartha, Nation Y) and (MA Agartha, Nation Z)?

And no, I'm not asking for MA Agartha. Just a placeholder.

Seriously.

[Omnirizon]

atul brings up a good point and another reason why the bid system is superior.

the bid system not only helps alleviate the burden on an adjudicator, it rewards innovation. as is, no one has any incentive to try and think of a nation no one else will pick using a strategy no one else will try and then low-ball it, because we can all just do three picks all involving EA/LA Mict or Lanka with a cheap other choice and feeling assured we will get one of our picks. In fact, only three teams can possibly get something like this. Other combos that might be able to compete with this are kind of too expensive with the point system the way it is. A bid system would allow non-Mict/Lanka teams to hook up something a little better than what they could right now and actually be able to compete.

EDIT: nvm. then ppl could just low-ball Mict/Lanka and no one else may bid on them, and they go real cheap.

but atul is right...

[Phalent]

Hello all

I'll form a team with Apsophos :)

[atul]

I assume Zeldor here is operating on a basis of good faith, which is reasonable considering we're all mature adults here...

...I think.

Anyway, the reason of diplomacy and an arbiter is to beat the living pulp out of anyone abusing the system. I wouldn't want to play with mechanics based on thesis that my fellow players are underhanded cheaters, so lets not try to game the system too badly.

Bidding system has its good sides, but is work intensive. And looking at current situation at stock markets, has its bad sides too.

[Zeldor]

I really think we have responsible players here. As I said, I'm not -playing it and I can make sure everyone has fun.

atul:
I think you can do both. But if you want 3 combinations with one nation then add 1-2 other possibilities, just in case.

[Gregstrom]

I just had an idea...

If a team wants two nations worth less than ten points between them, perhaps they should be get preference for the chosen nations?

PS: I've teamed up with DrP, by the way.

[Zeldor]

Actually yes, if there will be conflict about who takes a nation, the one with less points total gets it.

[Omnirizon]

I assume Zeldor here is operating on a basis of good faith, which is reasonable considering we're all mature adults here...

...I think.

Anyway, the reason of diplomacy and an arbiter is to beat the living pulp out of anyone abusing the system. I wouldn't want to play with mechanics based on thesis that my fellow players are underhanded cheaters, so lets not try to game the system too badly.

Bidding system has its good sides, but is work intensive. And looking at current situation at stock markets, has its bad sides too.

i think comparing stock exchange to a closed bidding system is a gross oversimplification.

do you like miss kitten?
stock exchange (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLbyvvxtESE)

[MadFrancis]

I'll play.

[JimMorrison]

Apparently MadFrancis and I will be teammates.

There is a bit of concern, looking at this map. Is there really enough room for 2 nations in any of those start areas? You did say the map was "modified", but unless you modified it to greatly increase the province count in those little pockets, I foresee a lot of early game "friendly fire" Dominion kills.....

:confused:

(EDIT - I think the Faerun map would be awfully nifty.....)

[namad]

i'll play, although i'd like my teammate to be an irc-regular if possible just so i don't have to stress out about difficulty of communicating with them... also i might get someone to agree to be my teammate by asking in irc but who knows ...

[namad]

is it possible to setup llamaserver to email a .trn file to TWO email accounts?


if possible i'd like my teammate to receive all my .trn files and i'd like to receive all of his.....

just to prevent half-stales and also make it easier to communicate about the map and the troops and such

[Jarkko]

What is a newbie regarding the "no two newbies" -rule? A person new to Dom3 MP, a person new to Dom3 PbEM MP, a person new on these forums, whatever the GM decides on ad hoc -basis?

Reason I ask is that I am trying to lure one of my friends from another forum to team-up with me, but, as we haven't played in team-games, we might be regarded as newbies and thus fail the application.

[Zeldor]

Phalent, Apsophos:

What is your experience? You have a low post count and I'd prefer to see people with 3+ games here [but as long as we have free spots everyone is allowed to play].

Jarkko:

I think newbie is someone with less than 3 multiplayer games [or at least 1 game with end-game experience, some blitzes are a plus]. Someone could maybe make a test "Are you a newbie?" :) But if you know how communion [and reverse ones too] work, how to make and counter SCs etc you are not a newbie.

[Jarkko]

I think newbie is someone with less than 3 multiplayer games [or at least 1 game with end-game experience, some blitzes are a plus]. Someone could maybe make a test "Are you a newbie?" :) But if you know how communion [and reverse ones too] work, how to make and counter SCs etc you are not a newbie.

Ok, then I think I am not a newbie according to those standards :D I am a slow learner, but I think I have figured out a thing or two during the pasts years playing Dom2 and Dom3 MP :p Now all I need is to get a partner :) Please give me time until today evening (European time) to give a definite answer :)

[Zeldor]

We still have 8 more slots open, so they won't fill today :)

[llamabeast]

If you want both players to get all the turn files you should set up a forwarding account and have the LlamaServer send turns to there. The forwarding account should then send the e-mail on to both of you.

For instance, you can get a free forwarding account here: http://ef.bigfoot.com/ef/en/infopage.jsp?show=faq.moreinfobasic

[Ossa]

Fungalreason joins forces with Ossa

[Apsophos]

Phalent, Apsophos:

What is your experience? You have a low post count and I'd prefer to see people with 3+ games here [but as long as we have free spots everyone is allowed to play].



I am currently playing in 4 games on llamaserver, been eliminated from two other (my first two). Phalent and I played a couple of short games to show him the basics.
I would say I'm still newbish and Phalent even more so. If you fear that such newbishness is a severe threat to game balance, we would accept to team with someone else (well, I would, but I think Phalent would be interested in a mentor/apprentice team so he could better kick my a** in our private games).

What are you afraid of? Us being swallowed early by a single team?

[Zeldor]

Apsophos:

Yeah, I am afraid of so called "easy targets". But if you have played some MP it's fine. I'd advice picking some familiar nations though, you can probably get preference for them over some more experienced players. And the best place to learn fast is using irc channel and playing fast games :)

[moderation]

i'm interested. want to find a teammate who's regularly on IRC or IM though.

[namad]

me and moderation can be a team

[Jarkko]

Ah well, looks like I can't lure anybody into this. Too bad :( I'll be following this thread though :)

[JimMorrison]

So, no one else is concerned about shoehorning 24 people into this map? The start locations are perfect.... for one person. 2 will have as much trouble managing their dominion, as they have deciding who gets what territories to start.....

[namad]

the whole three preferences thing is highly unclear... what are the rules governing this? are we to submit as specific combinations 3combination choices? and make sure not to re-use any nation more than once there-in? additionally even this method is likely to result in some people being unable to get any of there preferences? should the preference list size be expanded? will you randomly assign nations to people who don't get there choices? will it be invalid to submit as your preference for example :gath/jomon : gath/maverni : gath:ma argatha ... because doing this is almost forcing zeldor to give you gath? ... if only half of the nations get their preference will you allow the other nations to submit new preference choices? it would be a shame to assign so many nations randomly?

[namad]

this map is absolutely huge and oversized for 12players i think thats why zeldor thinks it can work for 24...




also maybe the people should list there preferences publicly... that way people can choose to compete for preferences with others and risk not getting any of their top 3... and/or people can carefully make sure that they make their 3rd preference a really unpopular one so they are sure to get it... ?

[JimMorrison]

this map is absolutely huge and oversized for 12players i think thats why zeldor thinks it can work for 24...

Not sure about "absolutely huge", but I am not concerned with the provinces/player. If you download the map and examine it, the teams will start in their own little pocket, mostly surrounded by impassable mountains. Those pockets are laid out to be great for 1 person to do their initial expansion, second fort, etc. But for two people..... It looks troublesome.

[archaeolept]

are you sure you are looking at the larger version of the map, w/ all the caves? its not a pocket then, surrounded by impassable mountains, as the mountains are tunnelled.

[JimMorrison]

337 total provinces.

It has nothing to do with the "size". It's laid out for 12 people - and to force early wars on the land nations already. With teams in each nook, the provinces adjacent to your capital, will be adjacent to those adjacent to your partner's capital. In turn, on the other side, your adjacent provinces will touch those that are adjacent to your nearest enemy.

There are ~50 provinces in the caves. So, if one teammate gets the bottom of the nook (5 provinces), and then has no avenue to grow except the caves, he'll be able to hope to have 9 provinces before he is forced to war in order to expand.

Just seems that this sort of sardine-like layout heavily favors rush nations altogether.

[atul]

Sounds like a fun game.

I haven't looked at the nation prices that much, but is it even possible to buy two rush nations for one team?

Besides, it wouldn't be a team game if a team shouldn't play together, instead of like two loosely allied nations.

[Zeldor]

It's supposed to be tight, but not extremely. It is afaik 14 provinces there, including 2 capitols, and there are 2 provs between capitol, which is standard in team games. You should think about potential problems, including dominion spread. Map should be ready soon, so you will all have chance to test it and suggest any changes. And don't forget gold is set to 150%.

About nation picks - yeah, you can put one nation 3x, but you should add in that situation 1-2 more alternatives without that nation. I understand that there can be only 3 combinations with 8 point nations. I will resolve any problems when they occur, I doubt that so many people will really want to play just one of that nations.

[Zeldor]

In case someone didn't notice - there was minor tweak, both gold and resources are at 150% base now.

[Omnirizon]

in my usual role of the voice of criticism, I should state that increased resources ALWAYS results in decreased diversity. This is because the competing demands within as organism, an ecosystem, or within a nation, and a battle betwixt nations or much easier to meet, and so survival falls upon some least common denominator which all things evolve towards.

In the royal island simulations, unlimited resources actually resulted in the complete death of all organisms, as the oscillations of population explosions between two populations, prey and predator, would magnify to the point that one population would go extinct, and the other would die off too. These oscillations would magnify so much because there was no resource limitation to bound them.

When ecosystems are flooded with typically bounding resources (such as nitrogen) it results in an explosion of the least common denominator, organisms designed soley to consume resources and reproduce; aka microbes of some sort. These explode in the population and use up ALL the resources (including oxygen) and kill off the more diverse collection of species who have all evolved to compete in some way for limited resources.

in our little simulation of nations here, the competing demands within nation design will be much easier to meet (resources, gold, magic gems, ect), and all nations will be able to meet these demands with much less, and be free to focus all their design on the least common denominator: absurd magic power (aka the 'mentok' phenomenon; rock, paper, scissors, mentok: mentok beats all). Things like luck, production, and gem producing spells are considerably devalued, and things like dominion and magic paths become more valued. There is really no point in considering a Turmoil/Production/Luck strategy because with such high magic the luck is pointless, and with such high resources so is production, all we need is more gold and more dominion and more magic paths; and this is what all pretender design will shift towards. Less diversity.

[JimMorrison]

I am not sure if the analysis of an ecosystem translates properly. Nations do not fill niches, they are all directly competitive by nature. There is no possibility for one to flourish without impacting the others.

Sure, you will see less light infantry perhaps, but with a relative balance between resources and income, people will tend to build armies in the way that is most effective, not the most pleasing. That is to say that while it may be attractive to only build your strongest elite unit, if you don't have any actual cheap chaff, then the enemy's mages will kill your expensive troops first.

Certain nations will still favor Productivity. There is still a balance between gold/resources, so high resource nations will still compete in troop count with low resource nations. It think the only thing that will lose relevance is Luck, as it fails to scale according to income levels.


Anyway, how did you know I was going to go with a Mentok pretender? :shock:

[Zeldor]

Luck is much better in CBM.

[Omnirizon]

an ecosystem analogy translates perfectly. this is not something that is one way in one system but not another. It is an iron law: increasing resources decreases diversity. When nothing is forced to adapt to compete for resources, nothing will. There is no need for justice in a perfect world. When you keep bailing them out, they keep ****ing up. Change and diversity comes from having less, not more.

The process of creating a nation is itself an internal struggle, as competing needs within a nation vie for points (gold, resources, gems, magic paths, dominion, ect.). With some of these bounds removed, all the points will simply shift into others. Big blesses are the most benefited, because they were usually bound by gold and resources. Atul already lamented in IRC that the problem with team games is they invariably end being a BIG bless nation just getting fed by their teammate. The money, resource, gem multipliers in this game only further benefit that type of team design because now the blessing nation doesn't even need to worry about resources, and the combination of high money multiplier and magic sites means there is no point for a luck scale because gems will already be plentiful and income from luck isn't going to be multiplied, while other income will.

with typical bounds on nations lessened, others take their place (dominion and magic, just like I said above). All nations will now simply have more points to invest in these things; thus all pretenders design strategies will begin to converge toward them.

[JimMorrison]

I am pretty confident that you will find that any player who tries to go only for the biggest and best in this scenario, is likely to fall sooner than one who remains adaptable, and is as creative as possible in their application of force.

Changing from the default settings WILL create different dynamics. However, it's a bit silly to make the assertion that while the game is fairly well balanced, that it is balanced out in such a way that altering the settings (in ways that are meant to be able to be altered) in some way wrecks the game as a whole.

I would consider that more of a personal problem, than a flaw in the system. Just as it seems that my thoughts about the map, are personal issues. :rolleyes:

[Omnirizon]

i don't think it will reduce fun... i was just saying for the sake of saying...

don't you feel more cognizant of the world around you now?

at any rate, it is all just another dimension, guessing how these dynamics may shape up is ultimately what determines winners... that and finding new ways to specialize and exploit the team opportunity that are not readily perceivable... perhaps specializing in not specializing.

[Zeldor]

The discussion about resources is as old as dominions. There is no way to get a good value, ever. There are many ideas to improve productivity, but rather none of them will appear before Dom4. I think that nations that will take Sloth3 now would have it with resources on 100 too. And nations that decide to take Productivity will get a nice boost and will be able to field really many troops, especially with CBM [it reduces mostly gold cost for high res units from what I remember].

Overall goals of setting was to make game more dynamic. Big armies, many magic sites, a lot of bloodshed. And even with gold at 150 you will find there isn't so much of it. I had 2 games on that map with standard gold settings and even then it would've been better with 125-150 gold setting. But plains will generate a lot of gold.

And when we are on that subject - I am still working on the map, I will probably redo most of .map file as editor will probably change prov numbers [I have to redo some borders, maybe add few provs]. Plan is to add 8 towns on plains [around 20k pop], all with special recruitables [4 of them will be Sages]. On the central island there will be Throne of the World, Ancient Forge and 2 more sites [one of the with cool indies, maybe even Lore Masters]. Also that pretender chassis put over there spawns a lot of Soldiers of the West [or East?], so expect 500-1000 troops there if it stays unconquered for longer time.

[namad]

instead of increasing gold and resources to 150% why not just take 50% of all the provinces in the game evenly distributed and slice them in half to create two similar provinces? or some such... achieving the same effect of increased resources while retaining omnirizon's ecosystematicism

[archaeolept]

Celestial General. 5 solid t'ien ch'i hvy inf/turn

[Omnirizon]

I have no idea what either one of you are saying.

[JimMorrison]

I speak jive, maybe I can help.

[atul]

Atul already lamented in IRC that the problem with team games is they invariably end being a BIG bless nation just getting fed by their teammate.
Huh? Not me, might have been archaeo. I have no experience with team games, and while big bless nation and its forge female dog underling is a strong combo, I'm not totally sure the bless nation could hold all fronts together when under attack from several directions.

What big resources and gold do (I assume), is mainly downplay the role of early SC pretender. It isn't said the "standard" settings would be optimal for different strategies either, proportion of gold/resources has changed heavily with each iteration of Dominions series.

[Zeldor]

We still have some places left, I hope we can get them filled that week :)

[chrispedersen]

Looking for teammates:
- Omnirizon
- JimMorrison
- Jarkko[/QUOTE]


I'd be interested in playing. Looking for teammate.

[Zeldor]

Ok, we need 6 more then, assuming Jarkko is still interested.

[chrispedersen]

Zeldor,

I know others have broached problems with the current system. First, let me say I will enjoy it if the game makes.

However, I'd really like to suggest that we go on a point bidding system. Points that you bid on the race - must be left unused on your pretender.

Additionally, perhaps you could set up 'kingdoms' on the map - 1 or maybe 2 territory size kingdoms - and let people bid on those as part of the starting position as well.

Team 1 Team 2 Team 3 Team 4 Team 5 Team 6
Abysia=EA
Abysia-MA
Abysia-LA
Agartha EA 25* 24 22 22
Agarth-MA 3*
Agartha-LA
Arco-EA 6*
Arco-MA
Arco-LA
Ashdod-MA
Atlantis-EA
Atlantis-MA 10 9
Atlantis-LA
BandarLog-MA
Bogarus-LA
Caelum-EA
Caelum-MA
Ctis-EA
Ctis-MA
Ctis-LA
Eriu-MA
Ermor-EA 14
Ermor-MA
Ermor-LA
Formoria
Hinnom-EA 6
Jomon-LA
Jotunheim-MA
Kailasa
Machaka-MA
Man-MA
Man-LA
Marverni
Mictlan-EA
Mictlan-MA
Mictlan-LA
Midgard-LA
Niefleheim
Oceania-EA
Oceania-MA
Oceania-LA
Pan-EA
Pan-MA
Pan-LA
Patala-LA
Pythium-MA
Pythium-LA
R'lyeh-EA
R'lyeh-MA
R'lyeh-LA
Saromatia-EA
Shinuyama-MA
Tien-EA
Tien-MA
Tien-LA
Tir
Ulm -EA
ULM -MA
Ulm -LA
Utgard-LA
Vanheim-EA
Vanheim-MA
Yomi

Essentially.. let everyone bid until everyone is satisfied. You only pay the points for your winning bid. So in this case Team one wins agartha, but has to leave 25 points unallocated on pretender design.

[Jarkko]

Ok, we need 6 more then, assuming Jarkko is still interested.

Yeah, I am still here.

[DrPraetorious]

I disagree with bidding points for pretenders - the actual application would work very poorly. We did test runs on this a while back and it was a headache mutiplied by a disaster.

I'd be fine with bidding something else - especially something that could be modded using map commands.

Suggestion:
Everyone has 500 pts to bid, you bid independently on two lists of nations, but you draw from the same 500 pts for each list and both partners of the team get the same starting stuff.

For each pt you don't spend, you start with 1 gold.
For every *full* 200 pts you don't bid, you start with 1 months gem income from your capital.
If you have more than 200 unbid points, for every *full* 100 pts bid past that, you start with +50% to your starting army.

If your list is exhausted without you winning a bid on any nation, you pay 0 points for a random nation among those left over.

Since a team game needs fixed start locations anyway, this could be handled with map commands and wouldn't require any communication back and forth with the players.

It would also have a more desirable effect, to my mind - weaker nations would get to start with gems and armies to jumpstart their defense, rather than weakening stronger nations (which makes early expansion harder and slows the entire game down.)

Thoughts?

[Zeldor]

I think we will stay with points. There are about 50 nations for 24 slots. For good bidding we'd need 30 nations max. Because with 50 nations you'd be able to easily get very good nation as a 2nd, so no problem with bidding like crazy for 1st. And I think that flaws of bidding pretender points were explained clearly enough, so I won't repeat it :)

P.S. We still need 6 more players.

P.P.S. Tomorrow I will show a map for tests [version with all provs and borders, but without magic sites and garrisons], so you can see how it will work [and find any mistakes that I can correct before putting magic sites and garrisons].

Some cool preview from earlier stage:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Zeldor/teamarena.jpg

[JimMorrison]

Interesting. :shock:

[Zeldor]

Yeah, I managed to get 18 provs per team in starting area. Caves are still not there. I will make borders on plains in a way that will give 4 provs between caps [so your cap - indie prov - garrison - garrison - indie prov - enemy cap]. So map will have few more provs, hard to say exactly how many, as I didn't process the map with map editor yet.

[chrispedersen]

I'm really looking forward to this. I have been playing with 1-3 pts nations and .. oddly enough finding strategies to hold their own.. fun as hell.

Still need a partner tho

[MadFrancis]

Apparently MadFrancis and I will be teammates.

Just pointing this out again.

[Zeldor]

Ok, updating now :)

[Denisius]

I would like to sign up.

[Zeldor]

Denisius:

What is your experience?

[Omnirizon]

I actually think I'm going to bow out of this game. It's seeming to be just a little more complex than I'm going to have time to commit to thinking about.

I've got a lot going on right now, and I hate playing a game that I can't take time to think through.

[Denisius]

Denisius:

What is your experience?


About a year of single player, and 4-5 multi-player games.

[Kheldron]

I'd like to be in. I've asked to a friend, Sicaire, to join with me. If he doesn't want to be in, I'll need a mate.

[Kheldron]

ok I need a mate :re:

[otthegreat]

I'd like to join. I will need a teammate too.

[PsiSoldier]

Hrrrm I might give this a go if there is room left. havent read the whole post yet but it doesnt look like nations have been bid on yet or anything.

[Zeldor]

Ok, we need 2 more. Look at the end of first post in that thread for list of players not teamed yet and organise in teams :)

[chrispedersen]

can you clearly explain and give examples of how the bidding will work?

I don't understand with this number of teams how you will distinguish who will win between 10 pt ties, 9 pt ties, 8 pt ties etc.

[Zeldor]

Rules are simple:

If there is a tie for any race:
1. Team with less points total gets that nation.
2. Less experienced team gets it.
3. If someone is not happy with their picks, he is free to choose any new set from left nations [afaik there are 57 nations on 24 slots].

[quantum_mechani]

If no one objects Micah and I might form a team.

[Zeldor]

Ok, then we will have all slots filled. I will post map in the evening so everyone can check it [to find any mistakes, before I paint terrain and put magic sites and garrisons].

[chrispedersen]

Rules are simple:

If there is a tie for any race:
1. Team with less points total gets that nation.
2. Less experienced team gets it.
3. If someone is not happy with their picks, he is free to choose any new set from left nations [afaik there are 57 nations on 24 slots].


So how will this be resolved?

Team A:
EA Mict EA Ctis
MA Mach MA Mict
LA Man LA Aby

Team B:
EA Mict EA Agartha
EA Arco Ea Tir
LA Man LA Aby

Team C:
EA Hell MA Agartha
Ea Caelum EA Ctis
EA Ctis LA Patala

(Thanks for being patient and answering the question - I think you are going to see people clustered at 30,29,28 pts is the reason I ask.)

Who gets mictlan?

[Zeldor]

Well, team C has no conflicts. If exp level between A and B seems similar then either it will be random or by looking at 2nd choice [so if for one team their 2nd pick will be someones 1st already picked, then they will get their 1st one, and another team with get their 2nd, as it would otherwise mean someone else taking 3rd].

[chrispedersen]

May I suggest the following?

1. Arrange the teams by the cost of their first picks, lowest to highest. Then, cases of ties on cost of first picks, arrange by lowest average total cost.

If matters are still tied, chose by lowest cost available pairs, with a null entry counted as high.

So for example
Team A: 5,3: 5,5: 3,7 Ave: 4.67
Team B: 6,4: 4,4: 2,7 Ave: 4.5
Team C: 4,4: 8,2: 8,1 Ave: 4.5
Team D: 2,4: 7,3: 8,2 Ave: 4.33
Team E: 5,5: 3,6: Ave 4.5
Team F: 5,3: 2,3: 5,5 Ave 3.83

So After arranging:
D, F, C, A, B/D

D gets his first choice
F as well.
C gets his second choice
A gets his third choice
Neither B nor D can be satisfied, all nations being chosen - they get random nations...

[namad]

the third option is a nod towards solving the system and gives people who don't diversify their picks a pointless advantage and encourages lack of pick diversity which breaks down your other points ...


if theres a tie resolving the way zeldor seems to be fine... after most teams are given nation assignments anyone without a pick can just go back and grab an unselected nation theres gonna be dozens of unselected nations to choose from at the end if you lose all your ties

when are we going to get the map WITH garrisons included? after we submit pretender designs or before? if the answer is before... will it be before or after nation preference selection?

[Zeldor]

You have few days for nation selection [as there are 6 people that need to team up anyway], so yes, you will see final map with garrisons before making final nation choices. Mapmaking has proven to be much more challenging than I originally thought :) But they will be the same as the ones on WoG, just moved a bit [and they may have added commanders with supply items and maybe some weak S mages to prevent mind hunting them out].

Central island will have:
50k pop
Throne of the World magic site
Ancient Forge [20% forge bonus]
magic site giving recruitment of Lore Masters
+ 1 more not yet decided [maybe some cool summoning, gotta go through Edi's DB]

[Kheldron]

Chrispedersen and I will play together.

[Jarkko]

Sorry to inform, but I am stepping out. Started already another MP game as this took some time to get going. Good luck everyone!

[Zeldor]

We need one more then.

[otthegreat]

Denisius and I have teamed up.

[Executor]

PsiSoldier just invited me here so I'll probably be his teammate.
Still looking at the rules...

[Executor]

One question, by additional mods, which are those exactly?
Will there be any mods that affect the cost of clams or blood stones and such, or just for banned spells listed in the rules post?

[Zeldor]

Ok, so we are full, at last!

[PsiSoldier]

Ok me and Executer will start working out which nations we will bid on etc.

[Zeldor]

There won't be any nerf to gem-making items, unless big group of players requests it [I will be sending mass PM today with all details].

[Zeldor]

TGA file of the map:

http://www.mediafire.com/?oe3efdzytsy



.map file will be completed soon, we are waiting for llamaserver to start working properly anyway.

[Micah]

We can get nation assignments figured out without the server being up, no?

[Zeldor]

Yep :) Going to send PM to everyone, so they know we are at that point.

Oh, I have to do some minor fixes to .tga file [add town icons etc], so you don't have to download that one :)

[PsiSoldier]

By the way I'm not sure if anyone else has commented on this or not, but a victory condition of 12/26 Vps seems a bit wrong to me with a center island having a value of 2 points It just seems to be too few VP's required. Ive always that that being required to hold 2/3 of the VP's is more balanced. I mean you could pottentailly have two major powerhouses in the game and one of them gain victory through VP's when they each hold nearly the same number of VP's. However with a 2/3 requirement such as 18/26 one team could never end up feeling robbed of their victory as someone would have had to have been clearly loosing (or winning) for the game to end. Whereas with 12/26 there may not be anyone clearly winning and yet the game suddenly ends with someone having stolen victory out from under you.

Anyways just my 2 cents on that.

[Micah]

Yeah, 12/26 certainly changes the focus from dominating the map to trying to grab enough VPs to win.

[Zeldor]

There are many connections, plains are open, caves are a maze, pretty much everyone can attack everyone. So it's not only about winning, but making sure someone else does not win. Central island with 2 VPs has 14 neighbouring provinces, hard to keep it [unless you let someone amass huge defences there].

[Gregstrom]

Yeah, 12/26 certainly changes the focus from dominating the map to trying to grab enough VPs to win.


I don't think I agree. Even if you're grabbing VPs, the ability to take a minimum of 8 enemy capitals is a pretty good sign that you're dominating the map already.

[Zeldor]

Ok, here is .map file with all neighbours and terrains. Please take a look at it to make sure there are no mistakes :) I will fix .tga a bit to mark towns and some blocked connections around central caps.

[PsiSoldier]

Yeah, 12/26 certainly changes the focus from dominating the map to trying to grab enough VPs to win.


I don't think I agree. Even if you're grabbing VPs, the ability to take a minimum of 8 enemy capitals is a pretty good sign that you're dominating the map already.

Yeah but you could technically have two people controlling 8 enemy capitals. Or in fact it is even possible for two people to gain control of 12 VP's on the same exact turn even. What then?? Its probably not a big deal because the chances of it happening that way are not terribly likely but it is a possibility, and it would be pretty screwed up if it happened.

[llamabeast]

Too unlikely to bother worrying about I reckon.

[PsiSoldier]

By the way, we were supposed to PM our Team nation choices to Zeldor right? instead of posting them in the thread.. I sent our teams picks to Zeldor a day or two ago I think but have not heard anything yet.

[Zeldor]

I am waiting for other teams, still 6 teams need to submit their picks. I got yours :)

[PsiSoldier]

Oh, I may have noticed a problem with the map. I'm not sure.

It looks like province 400 is supposed to connect to 408 but instead it connects to 404

I'm just going by how the colored tunnels look but I would think that that is how you wanted it to be.

[chrispedersen]

I am waiting for other teams, still 6 teams need to submit their picks. I got yours :)

did you get ours zel?
our perhaps you can say who you're waiting on ...

[Zeldor]

PsiSoldier:

Hah, thanks! Indeed, 400 should link to 408 instead of 404.

I have team picks from:
Micah + QM
Coobe + Ferrosol
PsiSoldier + Executor
Atul + Evilhomer
DrP + Gregstrom
JimMorrison + MadFrancis
WingedDog + Pretorian

With 7 nations making their picks there are no conflicts over their 1st choices so far.

[DrPraetorious]

Hold up, hold up, did I miss something? I thought we weren't allowed to have superteams? Micah+QM? Oh ye gods. I know that QM doesn't have the best MP record, but that's just because his *diplomacy* is poor, which is a very thin candy shell around the pure hurting of which he is made. As for Micah - I believe that the no-teams-of-two-veterans rule has him in mind specifically, no?

*Both* of those players are better than I am, and I think I must be in the upper 50%.

Obviously, it's too late to shuffle teams: in compensation, put them in the middle or give them 4 points or set them on fire or something.

Of course, when they win anyway, it'll be gruesome humiliation for all concerned.

[Zeldor]

DrPraetorius:

Yeah, there was rule like that with annotation that it can be relieved if we have trouble filling the game up, which unfortunately happened. I asked them to pick some less popular nations. And I also hope that rest of the game is aware enough of the situation and can do diplomacy. Just because someone is really good does not mean he is invincible, especially against coordinated action. And I am sure they will be disappointed if they don't get heavy fighting.

[WingedDog]

Well, how else can one gain the experience if not fighting stronger enemies? I consider I'm lucky to be in the same game with top players.

[WingedDog]

May I ask a stupid question? How can I look at the map without tga-file?

[Zeldor]

Well, you won't be able to 'look' at it. But you can open it in any text editor.

[Zeldor]

Namad and fungalreason apparently have problems getting in contact with their teammates. I know that games took some time to fill [but it was quite standard time for bigger games with less common settings], but just disappearing is irresponsible. If they don't appear soon I will try to get a new whole team to fill the whole [as we need 12 teams for that map].

[Zeldor]

Here is updated final .tga file [with different name, so there is no confusion].

http://www.mediafire.com/?et1wvnreiyi

[Zeldor]

Ignore last post, I found some minor not even bug on the map, just some white pixel that messed everything up. So I am uploading fixed .tga file.

[Zeldor]

Here it is [I really wish I could edit my own posts...]:

http://www.mediafire.com/?zjnwuziwyll

[JimMorrison]

Here it is [I really wish I could edit my own posts...]:

http://www.mediafire.com/?zjnwuziwyll


Admit it, you knew that some people found the word "confusion" to be offensive when you made the other post! :shock:

[namad]

does a team lose the game when one of the teammates dies or when both die?

[Micah]

Good luck winning with a man down, but I figure as long as you can get VPs you're still in the running.

[chrispedersen]

Hey, where we at in this game?

[Zeldor]

I am trying to convince one person to join as last team [Ossa and moderation went missing suddenly and deadline for them run out]. Huh, I really expected to have it already running.

[DrPraetorious]

I could ask Frank - although he's unlikely to be willing to team up with another randomly selected player.

[Zeldor]

Well, there is a place for a team. So it would be best if a whole team came [someone with a friend], instead of getting 2 random people and making a team out of them. So he may have a friend that would like to join with him :)

P.S. It seems that is bad time of the year for new games, there an insane amount of threads with people looking for subs, and not even one of them is getting filled.

[Zeldor]

Final picks:

1. coobe-ferrosol

EA Vanhem - MA Ulm

2. atul-evilhomer

LA Abysia - LA Midgard

3. wingeddog-pretorian

EA Yomi - LA Caelum

4. phalent-apsophos

EA C'tis - LA Marignon [you should theoretically get 2nd pick and team 5 third, but I think that they going with 1st and you with 2nd is more fair; if you feel otherwise I can change that]

5. gregstrom-DrP

MA Bandar Log + EA Abysia [you should theoretically get 3rd pick and team 4 first, but I think that they going with 2nd and you with 1st is more fair]

6. namad-fungalreason

LA Utgard - LA Bogarus

7. JimMorrison-MadFrancis

LA Jomon - EA Lanka

8. Micah-QM

All your picks are taken, as all are by much less experienced players, I am sure you will find some good picks among free nations.

9. chrispedersen-Kheldron

EA Agartha + EA Mictlan

10. otthegreat-Denisius

MA Pythium - MA C'tis

11. PsiSoldier-executor

EA Kailasa + MA Ermor

12. free


You can now take a look at first post and change your picks, if you wish.

[Zeldor]

BTW, map [both .tga and .map files] is here:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?p=652800

You can erase old preponderance.map and preponderance.tga if you had them. You don't need the .map file you will have one embedded in .trn file [with hand-placed nations], but you should look here for magic sites and garrisons. I will surely take at least one more look to see if everything is all right before starting it, but more eyes is better :)

[chrispedersen]

BTW, map [both .tga and .map files] is here:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?p=652800

You can erase old preponderance.map and preponderance.tga if you had them. You don't need the .map file you will have one embedded in .trn file [with hand-placed nations], but you should look here for magic sites and garrisons. I will surely take at least one more look to see if everything is all right before starting it, but more eyes is better :)


What does.... ' you should look here for magic sites and garrisons' mean?

[chrispedersen]

Province 219 is adjacent to 2 water provinces - none of the other ports are.

I am a complete newbie at this.. so I don't know if this is the kind of thing you are looking for.

[chrispedersen]

Reading the map file - could really give you a huge edge in knowing what to expect, planning turns etc. Do people really go to this extreme in team games?

Also, I tried to create a game using the map, and got a 'could not find a valid starting location error'.

[WingedDog]

What about game settings? Are all of them default or what?

[Zeldor]

You have all info in first post of that thread.

chrispedersen:
You must have got water nation, there are no start locations for water nations.

And yes, everyone can look at the map. So equal chances. If you want to just test magic sites, turn indie strength to 0 and conquer all provs. IF you want to check whole map well, try DEBUG mod, pick Caelum and cloud trapeze to all garrisons and check what they have [most items are set to random, but amounts of troops and commanders are not random].

[Ossa]

I'd like to take the free spot again - team me up with anyone.

My personal favorites:

MA Ulm
MA Van
EA Sauro

[Zeldor]

Ossa:

You disappeared and there was no contact with you. So your previous teammate is in different team now. If we find 1 player to join, you can team with him. But if we have whole different team of 2, willing to join, they will be in - so best solution would be if you found someone on your own to join together with you. And you can see what nations are free in first post.

[Ossa]

No problem;)
So I see there are no more free spots left - just call me if you ever need a sub.

[Zeldor]

Ossa:

There is a place for 1 more team.

[chrispedersen]

You have all info in first post of that thread.

chrispedersen:
You must have got water nation, there are no start locations for water nations.

And yes, everyone can look at the map. So equal chances. If you want to just test magic sites, turn indie strength to 0 and conquer all provs. IF you want to check whole map well, try DEBUG mod, pick Caelum and cloud trapeze to all garrisons and check what they have [most items are set to random, but amounts of troops and commanders are not random].

Ahh that must be it....

[Zeldor]

Huh, I will break forum rules and post in the main forum with info about 1 more player needed.

[Zeldor]

Ha, it looks like we have the last player :) So we should start very soon, just send me final picks with decision about who starts where, so I can create .map file with all nations and create the game on llamaserver.

[Zeldor]

Some people changed their choices - you can see it in the first post. Please send me info about who starts where as soon as possible [today-tomorrow].

[Zeldor]

As recently wishing for Armageddon became quite a popular tactic in MP and some people are not happy about that [and their concerns can be understood], I decided to ban wishing for Armageddon in that game. Of course there is no way to disable it, but I expect people to act fair.

[Zeldor]

We have some slight delay - QM lost his Internet, but it should be fixed soon. So I hope we start tomorrow. Sorry for it again. I just hope that game will be so fun that it will surpass all that nasty waiting time.

[DrPraetorious]

Wait, starting? Were we supposed to mail in pretenders already? Did I miss something?

[atul]

I assume by "starting" Zeldor means he sets up the game to llamaserver and we start mailing in our pretenders.

...I hope...

[Zeldor]

Ok, game is created on llamaserver. You can send pretenders in, you can get all details at llamaserver. Game name is Preponderance. We are still waiting for QM to get his internet fixed :( I hope it happens soon [yep, I talked with llamabeast, I can update map file even after creating the game].

http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=Preponderance

[vfb]

don't abuse your partners

Ha ha ha :D

By the way, the llamaserver shows:

Mods: Single Age Mod, Conceptual Balance Complete 1.3, Streamers & Standards, Single Age Complete, Banned Spells

Why is there both a "Single Age Mod" and "Single Age Complete"? Aren't they the same thing? (SingleAgeComplete.dm)

[Zeldor]

Use the one you have in the first post. I PMed llamabeast already, there is just one mod, it's some display error only.

[PsiSoldier]

I already PM'd Zeldor and he kind of responded but I thought I'd post on the game thread as well. I will be gone to my grandmother's house for Thanksgiving from Wed. to Sunday of this coming thanksgiving week.

I'd imagine some other's from here will likely be away from home and unable to access Dom3 over thanksgiving as well so I was requesting a delay of the turns over the holiday weekend. Assuming we can get started before then which I hope we can.

[DrPraetorious]

Incidentally, I predict that Micah+QM will be the two Caelums combined (MA and LA) and that we are all so hosed.

[Zeldor]

That was their 3rd choice actually. And unless they change it, they will go with that :)

[Gregstrom]

Quick everybody; take an A9 bless!

[atul]

Now that I finally stopped sitting on my hands and uploaded my pretender, all I have to ask: What's taking so long? Action, people, action!

14 ready, 10 to go, /me starts the annoying routine all again.

[Zeldor]

Ok, I have a confirmation that Micah + QM are going with MA + LA Caelum. So I will replace the .map file with corrent one [and found one missing neighbour]. I will send out reminder e-mail to those that didn't send their pretenders in.

[PsiSoldier]

Ok I hope that the game start can be delayed as we are now getting into the Thanksgiving Weekend. I will be leaving tommorow and gone until late Sunday night. At this current rate it could be after that before all these slackers get there damn pretenders sent in to lammaserver. But in the event that people get off their *** and send them in I am requesting that the start of the game be delayed until Monday.

[Zeldor]

Of course, I don't really understand what is that holiday about [except eating and shopping :P], but let's start the game on Monday [auto-start is turned off].

[DrPraetorious]

We can start early as long as the host interval is set to infinity. Perhaps set it to 24h once the first turn is completed? This'll give people time to deal with technical issues, should any arise.

[JimMorrison]

Of course, I don't really understand what is that holiday about [except eating and shopping :P], but let's start the game on Monday [auto-start is turned off].

Well the point is to celebrate how we found this wonderfully bountiful land to live in, and how the native inhabitants helped us survive the first winter, so that we could manage to later carry out our master plans of genocide, to become the wealthiest nation on Earth.

Alternately, I most just celebrate what an amazing cook my mother is, and try to enjoy the long stretch of the winter holidays that I don't much "feel".

At any rate, Thanksgiving is all about family now, and so most people in the US do travel for it, or are otherwise busy if they are the hosts.

[atul]

Eating a lot and being with the family? Isn't that what Christmas is for? You guys are a month early.

Anyway, the first turn without set host schedule would be wise anyway so that everyone can get the first turn in would be advisable anyway. Not that it would matter much, but I just would like to get the game into 20ish turn by Christmas and to 48h-host since I'll be kicked out of my home 1st of Jan and that might complicate things....

[PsiSoldier]

We can start early as long as the host interval is set to infinity. Perhaps set it to 24h once the first turn is completed? This'll give people time to deal with technical issues, should any arise.

Yeah what he said.. I guess thats better than just delaying the start.

[Zeldor]

BTW, Some hint about central Island. There are only 6 commanders + 25 Crushers in the beginning. But 4 of that commanders [2 Celestial Generals, 2 Lords of War] spawn troops of east and west. So if you don't conquer it for a very long time you can get that:

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/8955/eternialw7.jpg

[atul]

Too bad indy troops won't starve...

...in other news, only 2 pretenders to be uploaded.

[Gregstrom]

Indies can starve, I believe. Looks like a really good target for Master Enslave if you ask me.

[Zeldor]

In places where starving issues could occure I added supply items :)

[atul]

Zeldor, every contignency accounted for? You've spent too much time with this. :)

Every pretender in, when do we get the first turn? :)

[Zeldor]

All pretenders in. I'd just like to get final confirmation from llamabeast that that info about 2x single age mod is just a display error and that it won't crash the game. But if he does not arrive till like 11AM GMT time I will take the risk and start the game [with deadline on Monday].

[Zeldor]

Ok, game is started. Check if everything is fine:
- if you started near your teammate (I tested it, so there shouldn't be any problems)
- if VPs are correct [1 in every capital, 2 on the island]
- if your pretender is fine
- if there are no problems with mods

First turn is on 72h timer. Later we are going with 24 timer, probably without any delays until Chrismas and 48h timer after few day break for Chrismas [probably 24.12-1.1].

[Zeldor]

It looks like the game has crashed instead of starting. I sent a PM to llamabeast.

[WingedDog]

Any news yet?

[JimMorrison]

The news is, we're all suckers! :shock: Zeldor has taken all of the money for the team uniforms, and run off to Mexico! :mad:

[WingedDog]

Damn! So many oulaws run to Mexico, I wonder if there's still space for Mexican outlaws! :shock:

[Apsophos]

I recieved the first turn but when I open it I realise that I am... nowhere! The map seems to be centered on a starting position, but I own no province and have no commanders or armies or whatever.

[Evilhomer]

You are sure you havent done something by accident with the map filter settings ? Turning of flags/forts and armies gives that effect actually. For me the turn was fine.

[Apsophos]

Map filters are fine, and hitting 'n' does not select anything.
Could this be caused by creating my pretender without the single age mod, or with the wrong one as there seems to be two of them?

[WingedDog]

Maybe you've got the wrong map? Is the name of your map "WoG - Team Arena"?

[Apsophos]

I'm pretty sure I downloaded the right map. I'll try that, but I think the game outputs an error message when the correct map can't be found.

Also : I see victory points on the map, corresponding to capitals. Isn't the central island supposed to have some too? And one province seems to have two of them, too.

[vfb]

Agreed on the VPs. There are 2 in #324, none in #249.

The .map is actually in the .trn file for MP game clients. So it's not a case of the wrong .map, I think we need a fixed map and a restart.

[Zeldor]

I am sure all starting locations are put properly on the map. I will contact llamabeast, but I have no idea what the problem may be. I've heard about LA MArignon wanting coastal start, but that shouldn't really be a problem here.

[DrPraetorious]

Ah..... are you sure about that? Because I recall seeing LA Marignon placed into a coastal start even when I tried to force LA Marignon to start elsewhere.

If he requires a coastal start, and all of the coastal provinces are marked nostart, I believe that'd cause LA Marignon to simply evaporate on turn 1 with no start province assigned.

[Zeldor]

I found the problem with no VPs at 218, but I am clueless about no start for LA MAri. I triple checked the map file - all is fine. Huh. LEt's wait for llamabeast, again :(

[Zeldor]

DrP:

I think that if there were coastal provinces it would grab one, even if #specstart wanted it in other place. But as there are no coastal provinces on the map, it should start fine here. Same for LA Atlantis. I know LA MArignon worked on that map [before #specstart at least].

[DrPraetorious]

In that case, try setting every start-legal province to #specstart *except* for LA Marignon and his team-mate, and just make those provinces regular #start directives?

That way, LA Marignon and his ally will grab those two provinces as the only remaining legal start locations.

[chrispedersen]

Perhaps it would be easier to just switch out LA Marignon for an equal cost other nation?

[Zeldor]

Probably yes, they are not even at 10 points, so apsophos could certainly take a stronger nation if he wants. Maybe even Gath or Ashdod.

But I'd still like to know what the problem is and if it can be fixed. It affects other future games too.

[Zeldor]

I wanted to send mail to everyone about the situation, but my admin password is not working, it must be a side-effect of the crash.

[DrPraetorious]

MA Van is overpriced at 7.

EA Caelum is pretty well fair at 7 - and complements EA C'tis nicely, in terms of magic diversity (well, no blood.) Fomoria and MA Jotunheim would also be good partners for EA C'tis.

[archaeolept]

ashdod should be banned - certainly more so than hinnom or niefl. But Gath wouldn't be too bad - one point over, but that hardly seems an issue, given that apsophos and his partner's plans have been messed up, and gath has blood, which I do believe apsophos likes :)

[Zeldor]

Ok, sent the PM to everyone. I really hate that new forums, max 5 recipients, 60s between sending PMs...

I hope I can add that 1 prov easily, but knowing dom3 map editor it may be not so easy.

[Micah]

Should we all agree to leave the province indy for the duration of the game as well, so as not to upset map symmetry?

[atul]

Why not just put a zero-pop lake with #clearfeatures on the edge of the map and link it to Mari's location. Shouldn't have any relevance who has it. Bad thing there being that everyone knows where he is, though.

...I don't know anything about maps, so that might not work.

[Zeldor]

atul:

That's what I am planning to add. But that 'edge' is not so easy because of how dom numbers provs [you cannot number them or change numbers]. But I think that adding that new prov pixel a bit higher than highest prov we have will be fine. I will give it 0 pop and I think it will be fair if no one takes it [it will be useless, but still...].

I could change starting prov for Mari, but it would make no sense at all as everyone will now the # and neighbours of newly added prov. The only thing that map editor would le me do would be to add some items, units, commanders or modify his neighbours to have more pop or some sites.

[Zeldor]

Some good news - adding 1 sea prov bordering LA Mari cap worked and LA Marignon can start there normally. I gave him 2 mines next to his cap [1 resources, one with gold] as a small reparation for the fact that everyone knows his cap [changing starting locations had no purpose]. Please behave fair - probably 2 of his closest neighbours could PM him who they are, to be on a more fair ground.

[Zeldor]

Hmm... Preponderance2 just disappeared from llamaserver. Huh, not cool.

[Zeldor]

PreponderanceNew is the new game name, it still exists and I hope it stays like that :)

[chrispedersen]

I have ignored preponderance warning that the game is hosting in 6 hours. That ok?

[WingedDog]

Since the new game has been started - yes.

[Zeldor]

Yep. As my password is not working I cannot stop that game, llamabeast is getting back on 7th, so you will be getting turns and mails from old broken game till then. Please don't abuse it [don't submit any turns].

[DrPraetorious]

So, we are missing one person for PreponderanceNew. Can their teammate get in touch with them - or can we get them a sub?

[Zeldor]

I know who it is.

[chrispedersen]

I know who it is.

truly a useful post =)

[Micah]

I know who it is.

So says ceiling cat.

[Evilhomer]

This is taking a long time - time to find a sub ?

[DrPraetorious]

Is llamabeast back already? Maybe he could just port the pretender file and e-mail address from the old game.

Also, of course, the old game rather needs to be suspended...

[Zeldor]

Ok, if someone finds Ferrosol - kill him. But make him send his pretender again. That's really not funny [and he was even on IRC when restart was announced].

Llamabeast is back on 7th, but wit that bad behaviour of some people we may as well wait one more day and get our old game restarted. Not cool.

[chrispedersen]

I'd rather prefer a random start that obviates the need for 2 extra mines.

[Zeldor]

chrispedersen:

We need to add province number #416 that is linke to LA MAri cap. Random start cannot be used in that situation [and even if it was possible, you'd just check neighbours of 416]. There is no way around it. I'm not happy either. BTW, their team is worth 8 points, not 10.

And it looks like we will start tomorrow by restarting the old game. Ferrosol is not here, so the only way to have his pretender now is to get old game restarted with just changing the map. And he will stale if he won't show up.

[chrispedersen]

chrispedersen:

We need to add province number #416 that is linke to LA MAri cap. Random start cannot be used in that situation [and even if it was possible, you'd just check neighbours of 416]. There is no way around it. I'm not happy either. BTW, their team is worth 8 points, not 10.

And it looks like we will start tomorrow by restarting the old game. Ferrosol is not here, so the only way to have his pretender now is to get old game restarted with just changing the map. And he will stale if he won't show up.

Um. Ok.

Laughing I really didn't understand what you said. I had no idea where La Marig is / was. I suspect most people were in that boat.

<--- Amateur

[WingedDog]

Seems like the game has been restarted. I have just received a new turn, but cannot open it. Game says I need to install Single Age Complete, but it is already installed. Reinstalation didn't help. I was able to open my turn when the game had started the first time.
Am I the only one?

[atul]

You're not.

But at least for me the game asks for "Single Age mod.dm" instead of SingleAgeComplete.dm.

So, where's the other single age mod? Just changing the name crashes the game, I tried. :)

[JimMorrison]

WoGRemake2.map is it? Where is the file, I don't see it anywhere. :shock:

[WingedDog]

atul
Yes, it is Single Age mod.dm the game ask.

JimMorrison
I beleive it is WoGteamarena.map

[Zeldor]

You don't need map file. You may need the new .tga file though, it's here and it has 1 more province bordering LA MAri added:
http://www.mediafire.com/?7h12ypdmnix

Game status on llamaserver is a huge mess, so I cannot get anything there sitll. PMed llamabeast.

That single age mod problem must be another llamaserver issue, so it will probably get restarted again manually by llamabeast, with singleage.dm deleted, jsut singleagecomplete.dm left [but it's really strange that it all worked fine in the first time].

[JimMorrison]

Right, we don't need the map file, I knew that. :P

It wants WoGremake2.tga, and Mediafire says it is serving a file from 11-13, which tells me it's the old one. < shrug >

[JimMorrison]

Okay, that one is better. <3

You are a patient patient man Zeldor, I really appreciate it.

[Executor]

I see status is mixed up and I dpn't know if we've started for real this time so I don't know when the first turn is due, but could you put the first turn on a 48 hours quickhost? I won't be able to download the new map until tomorrow evening.

[Zeldor]

It's all messed up, trying to sort it out [well, waiting for llamabeast to be back online].

[Gregstrom]

If you want to take the brute force approach to it, copy singleagecomplete and rename the copy to single age mod.dm - it lets you play the turn, at least. I don't know if this would cause any other problems though.

[JimMorrison]

If you want to take the brute force approach to it, copy singleagecomplete and rename the copy to single age mod.dm - it lets you play the turn, at least. I don't know if this would cause any other problems though.

I already have a copy of the mod renamed, in my folder. There's a database problem on Llamaserver, and while both mods are in fact identical, it got posted twice with differently named files. We used one of them in the first game, now the other in this game - so confusing. ;) And likely to stay confusing, for as long as any game on Llamaserver uses one or the other version, that version cannot be purged (though maybe one could be removed from the Mod menu).

[Zeldor]

There is only one in mod menu. But choosing multiage game adds old SingleAge.dm to the game. Llamabeast has to fix it.

[Zeldor]

Huh, game hosted after about 6 hours. That is not funny. Next PM to llamabeast sent, our game must be stuck in some weird time-space continuum and it will be hard getting it out of it. I think that game will have to be restarted tomorrow [well, today if you are looking at GMT time].

[Gregstrom]

Ah. There are two Preponderance games on llamaserver. I'd bet that caused the problem.