E9n9 Bless

[chrispedersen]

Multiple times now, I have had an E9N9 Anusara blessed apparently get no prot bonus, while he regenerates normally.

Is this known behaviour?

Examining further, a palan 12. After bless, 15. Again normal regen.
How does this work... e9 = +4 prot - and it works ok for niefle.
Berserk +2.......???

[vfb]

Yep. The E4 bless adds +4 to body armor and helms (and misc armor like bracers).

Since the Anusara just has a shield, he does not get +4 anywhere.

Try a Kala-Mukha, he'll get +4 on the helm, +4 on the body.

Palankashas get +4 on the body only.

[chrispedersen]

Yep. The E4 bless adds +4 to body armor and helms (and misc armor like bracers).

Since the Anusara just has a shield, he does not get +4 anywhere.

Try a Kala-Mukha, he'll get +4 on the helm, +4 on the body.

Palankashas get +4 on the body only.

yeah.. you're right of course on the anusara. Should have remember that... But I still don't understand the palanksha.. Hmm..

Prot = BaseProt + ArmorProt * (1 - BaseProt/40).

It starts out as 5 Base and 10 Armor
soo Berserk adds to base prot, or

7 + 14 * (1-7/40) = 18.

AHHH I got it

The formula is actually wrong. The correct formula is:

Prot = (BaseProt + ArmorProt) * (1-BaseProt/40).

So, interestingly, the higher the base protection the less usefull an earth bless.

[vfb]

Palankashas have base 5 protection. The earth bless does not add to that.

They also have a Cuirass, which is 10 protection. So, if you click on the 'Protection 12', you see:

Base 5
Protection 12

Head 5
Body 15 (5+10)


An E9 blessed Palankasha is going to show:

Base 5
Protection 15 (or is it 14?)

Head 5
Body 19 (5 + 10 + 4)

I don't know the formula for getting Protection from Head and Body, but it's just an average with more weight on the body.

[Endoperez]

He counted the +2 to base prot from regeneration as well.

[vfb]

Endo, I was considering the situation before they berserk. Or are you talking about Chris's calc? Sorry, I was going from memory in my numbers above, so they are off.

In any case, a Gibbor is only base protection 2, but loses one mystery protection point when donning armor. At base 5, the Palankasha loses 1 on armor, and also only gains +3 on armor pieces from an E9 bless.

Chris, your formula looks pretty good. Where did you get it from?

[Endoperez]

I was talking about Chris's calculations. It looked like you were answering to his post.

[chrispedersen]

Endo, I was considering the situation before they berserk. Or are you talking about Chris's calc? Sorry, I was going from memory in my numbers above, so they are off.

In any case, a Gibbor is only base protection 2, but loses one mystery protection point when donning armor. At base 5, the Palankasha loses 1 on armor, and also only gains +3 on armor pieces from an E9 bless.

Chris, your formula looks pretty good. Where did you get it from?

Well I scoured back archives using keywords berserk and prot as I remembered there was something about it. Then I played around a bit, since the formula didn't seem to give demonstrable results.. but it seems to work now. At least on the 5-10 results I have tried.

[Amorphous]

I am probably just misunderstanding something, but this:
Prot = (BaseProt + ArmorProt) * (1-BaseProt/40)
cannot be the correct formula.

It would mean that an entity without armour would have a protection lower than its base protection as long as that base protection was 7 or more. A Cyclops with 10 levels of earth magic would have a base protection of 30, but a total protection of only 8.

[Jazzepi]

I am probably just misunderstanding something, but this:
Prot = (BaseProt + ArmorProt) * (1-BaseProt/40)
cannot be the correct formula.

It would mean that an entity without armour would have a protection lower than its base protection as long as that base protection was 7 or more. A Cyclops with 10 levels of earth magic would have a base protection of 30, but a total protection of only 8.

I'm pretty sure that total protection includes a "legging" slot for armor when being calculated that doesn't see any real use in the actual game.

Jazzepi

[Gregstrom]

And in This Thread (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=32836), we get:

Back in Dom2, there was a "diminishing returns" protection formula, where protection values didn't exactly add up together. Putting, say, a 10 prot. armor on a creature with a 10 natural prot. didn't result in 20 prot, but something lower.

IIRC (but it's highly likely that I don't remember it 100% correctly), the formula was something like

FinalProt = 40 - (40-ProtA)*(40-ProtB)/40

That is, count a protection of 40 as "maximum", and, say, protection of 10 as "25% protection"; then protection values don't add, rather the "unprotected" percentages are multiplied.

Thus, a natural protection of 10 lets 75% go through, and an armor protection of 20 lets 50% go through - so adding the two together would let 37.5% go through, resulting in a protection of 62.5% of 40, that is, 25.

Now, I don't know how bonuses to protections would be taken into account with this formula, or even if it was completely correct, or if it could explain what you observed in Dom3...

[Gregstrom]

I think PhilD's formula could come out as:
40 -( 40 * ( ( ((40-Natural Prot) /40)) * ( (40-Armour Prot)/40) ))

For 5 base and 10 armour (as per chrispedersen's example), that's

40 - ( 40 * ( (35/40) * (30/40) ) ) = 13.75

After making an Excel spreadsheet do the calculating:

5 base and 14 armour is 17.25

7 base and 14 armour is 18.55

20 base and 0 armour is 20

0 base and 20 armour is also 20


This seems pretty close to values in the game.

[vfb]

Thanks!

The formula can also be expressed as:

Protection = natural + armor - (natural * armor/40)

[Gregstrom]

Woohoo! Just when they're needed, someone who can simplify an equation turns up!

[MaxWilson]

Thanks!

The formula can also be expressed as:

Protection = natural + armor - (natural * armor/40)

Yes. That's where the original formula that Chris cited ("Prot = BaseProt + ArmorProt * (1 - BaseProt/40).") comes from.

If you want a way to visualize this, imagine that Base Prot and Armor Prot are two dimensions of a protection "square" with sidelength 40, and the total Prot is the proportion of total area covered (times 40). So if you have Base Prot 20 and Armor Prot 20, you wind up with


Base Prot -> 40
A ****************************************
r ****************************************
m ****************************************
o ****************************************
r ****************************************
****************************************
P ****************************************
r ****************************************
o ****************************************
t ****************************************
********************--------------------
| ********************--------------------
V ********************--------------------
********************--------------------
********************--------------------
********************--------------------
********************--------------------
********************--------------------
4 ********************--------------------
0 ********************--------------------


Thus, you get 3/4 of 40 prot, which is Prot 30. If one dimension is half full, you only get half the benefit from the other dimension because half of it is already covered.

Thus, armor should be a low priority for an E10 Cyclops because it's very hard to raise total Prot significantly. And E9 does not combine as well with Berserk as you might hope, because they act on different forms of Prot.

-Max