Conceptual Balance Mod 1.4

[quantum_mechani]

Some of the changes, from 1.3:

*Many Bogarus and Jomon summons improved.

*Boulders bypass shields (modding method thanks to Sombre).

*Several low level blood summons improved.

*Hidden in snow/sand cheaper.

*Ether gate slightly cheaper, and ether warriors map move 2.

*Man's wardens cheaper and map move 2.

*Bogarus cavalry bug fixed.

*Son of Fenris cheaper, gained wolf summoning in dominion, and auto casts Howl.

*Enchanted forest bug fixed.

*Death bless +1 damage.

*Clockwork horrors cheaper.

*Oracle got fortune telling instead of gem production.

*MA T'ien Ch'i fortunetelling improved.

*EA Ulm warriors are more ambidextrous.

*Bakemono-sho made size 1.

*Farstrike no longer precision 100 (targeted mages too much)

*Many units missed by IW's Great Stealth Upgrade fixed (ghost, ghost king, vampire queen, sirin, likho, great druid, etc.).

*Eater of the Dead cheaper and further improved.

*Light cavalry without lances made even cheaper.

*Some Ashdod mages reduced in power or made more expensive.

[quantum_mechani]

Split version.

[DonCorazon]

Thanks QM! Hehe, I am gonna miss Farstrike - the poor man's soul slay in CB 1.3! :)

[Redeyes]

Ashdod mage changes:
Zamzummite lost one E/D Random.
Talmai Elder now 500 from 400 gold
Rephaite Sage now 200 from 175 gold
Hope I didn't miss anything...

[Tifone]

Woo! :) New version, nice :cool:

Only a minor point... May I ask why the improvement of the Death blessing? Death at high level is so strong as it is imho...

(I'll miss Farstrike too :o )

[quantum_mechani]

Death magic itself is pretty strong, yes. Ideally I would have liked to balance the truly bad level 9 blesses like air and blood, but unfortunately that's not possible. But death 9 certainly doesn't measure up to blesses like earth, and it is one of the few I am able to mod, so hopefully some change is better than nothing.

[meister_miagi]

Thanks for this update, I really like the changes!

I noticed a little bug: you forgot an #end after the Great Black Bull, so the Son of Fenrir changes don't work.

I found some typos in the descriptions, I can fix them and post the changes here if you like.

[KissBlade]

It's ok. No one will use the Son of Fenrir anyway!

[JimMorrison]

*Man's wardens cheaper and map move 2.

Apparently the Lord Warden has too much on his mind to keep pace with his troops, and is still 1/9 rather than 2/9. :shock:


And thanks for the change to Hidden in XXX, I am looking forward to making use of them from time to time now. :D

[quantum_mechani]

Thanks for the bug hunting, I may make a 1.41 version in a week or so if more appear.

meister_maigi: Any proofreading would of course be greatly appreciated.

[Aezeal]

Is the improved arena mod already in there? If not I think that is a serious ommision.

[llamabeast]

Yeah, adding Endo's arena mod would be a great idea.

[llamabeast]

Oh, also: Thanks for all the work on this QM. CBM seems to be being used in a majority of MP games now, and I think it's really improving the experience.

[Zeldor]

BTW, llamabeast: fix that problem with Single Age mods for your games :)

QM: do it fast, I want to use it in my new game [I hope to start it around Monday].

[iceboy]

Woohoo! Thanks QM! Love this mod!!! :D

[Humakty]

In the name of the silent majority of SPers, I solenly declar WHOOOT !!!! And thanks for all that work.

[meister_miagi]

I proofread the file, here are some typos I found:

Line 62, 71, 81, 90 (Soldiers): ".. Some are remenants of the old army " (remnants)

Line 106 (Lady of Springs): "Her will and her great pitcher brings life to the land" =bring
Line 185 (Monolith): inhawbiting=inhabiting , cermonies=ceremonies

Line 214 (White Bull): time immwmorial=time immortal?, bland rage=blind rage?, bulls=bull's, umatched=unmatched,

Line 222 (Black Bull): time immwmorial=time immortal?, slyer=slayer, dominannce=dominance, "The Great Black Bull posses legendary stmina"= possesses lengendary stamina, #end missing

Line 229 (Son of Fenrir): berzerk=berserk
Line 422 (Father of Serpens): Serpentd=Serpents
Line 451 (Lord of the Summer Plague): draught=drought
Line 477 (lord of Rebirth): iss=is
Line 527 (Jade Emperor): hange fate=change fate, reduce unrest prevent = "and" missing

Line 586 (Lord of the Forest): forst=forest, Forst has retuened=Forest has returned, beats=beasts,

Line 649 (Mother of Serpents): acomponied=accompanied,
Line 684 (Celestial General): #decr=#descr, Different spellings of "Pantokrator"

Line 770 (Phoenix): spring=sprung, the first=remove one space,
lcks the physical strgth=lacks the physical strength

Line 1555 (Carnutes Warrior): berzerk=berserk
Line 2299 (Vanara): sociecties=societies, maxes=axes
Line 2421 (Bandaraja): 2x thier=their, weapon in of itself=in an of itself? or just "itself",

Line 2588 (Polypal Mother): Aboleths, over the centuries= no comma, neraby=nearby

Line 3167 (Prince General): Thier=Their
Line 3428 (Vaettir): THey=They
Line 3558 (Bandar Noble): see Bandaraja
Line 9760 (Karasa Tengu): It is a mischievous and often harasses humans= mischievous demon?

Sometimes you spelled Pantokrator "pantocrator"

[Humakty]

I read the Dm with proton, and found two typos :

abysia EA : warmaster (unit 118) has a #end too much just before unit ID. (line 1926 at 1929).

vanara warrior has its #end spelled #ned (line 10126 at 10131)

I couldn't check those two ingame, as the first is a hero, and the second an indep (I think)

[chrispedersen]

Is there any chance the agarthan boulders can be changed to the same boulders as Niefle? Ie., same weapon?

As I recall either:

a). Fire bless effects do not apply to agarthan boulders as there is no Agarthan Fire Boulder

or

b). Flaming arrows did not apply do agarthan boulders.

We're pretty sure the rocks are the same - and as fire is a national pick for the agarthans not the niefles fire boulders makes much more thematic sense for the former, if anyone.

[Sombre]

Fire bless doesn't apply to any missile weapons.

You must be thinking of flaming arrows. However flaming arrows on boulders is pretty much pointless anyway, especially now they can't be parried.

[archaeolept]

Ashdod nerfs far too minimal.

great work though, QM

[Incabulos]

I am a little confused


--Bogarus--CB 1.3 readme

-Voi Spearmen-
Gold cost: 7 (8)

-Voi Axemen-
Gold cost: 7 (8)

-Petashi Axemen-
Morale: 11 (10)

-Petashi Spearmen-
Gold cost: 9 (10)

-Black Hood-
Added hoof

-Styag-
Gold cost: 35 (50)

-Malaia Druzhina-
Resouce cost: 2 (15)
Added warhorse hoof

-Grid Druzhina-
Resouce cost: 2 (10)
Added warhorse hoof

-Knyaz-
Gold cost: 40 (60)
Added warhorse hoof

-Veliki Knyaz-
Gold cost: 60 (130)
Added warhorse hoof

--Bogarus--CBM 1.4 readme

-Voi Spearmen-
Gold cost: 7 (8)

-Voi Axemen-
Gold cost: 7 (8)

-Petashi Axemen-
Morale: 11 (10)

-Petashi Spearmen-
Gold cost: 9 (10)

-Black Hood-
Added hoof

-Styag-
Gold cost: 35 (50)

-Malaia Druzhina-
Resouce cost: 2 (15)
Added warhorse hoof

-Grid Druzhina-
Resouce cost: 2 (10)
Added warhorse hoof

-Knyaz-
Gold cost: 40 (60)
Added warhorse hoof

-Veliki Knyaz-
Gold cost: 60 (130)
Added warhorse hoof

Base (no mod)
Black Hood 25 gld 15 rsc
Styag 50 gld 23 rsc
Grid 30 gld 28 rsc
Malaia 50 gld 42 rsc
Knyaz 60 gld 14 rsc
Veliki 130 gld 21 rsc

CB 1.3
Black Hood 25 gld 17 rsc (has hoof matches 1.3 notes)
Styag 35 gld 25 rsc (matches 1.3 notes)
Grid 30 gld 27 rsc (has warhorse hoof)
Malaia 50 gld 40 rsc (has warhorse hoof)
Knyaz 40 gld 14 rsc (gold + warhorse hoof as per notes)
Veliki 60 gld 21 rsc (gold + warhorse hoof as per notes)


CB 1.4
Black Hood 17 gld 17 rsc (notes don't mention gold change)
Styag 30 gld 25 rsc (notes say 35 gold)
Grid 25 gld 30 rsc (notes don't mention gold change, missing warhorse hoof)
Malaia 45 gld 42 rsc (notes don't mention gold change)
Knyaz 35 gld 14 rsc (notes say cost 40 gold)
Veliki 50 gld 21 rsc (notes say cost 60 gold)


Also in another thread someone mentioned CBM would mean Bogarus was no longer so Production reliant, but the resource costs are higher on 3 of the 4 cav units. How does such a drrastic change in their base rresource cost result in them being more expensive on resources?

Am I missing something? And are the notes or the mod itself correct as far as gold costs and the warhorse hoof go?

Sorry to be a pain.

[quantum_mechani]

There are a few things going on there, one is some readme errors (mainly I forgot to update the readme for the 1.4 gold cost tweaks). On top of that there was some weapon buggines with cavalry in 1.3 that was fixed in 1.4. But I think the most confusing thing is CB reduces the base resource cost of cavalry - not the equipment cost. So the listed rec prices are just a reduction of arbitrary barding rec values present in in the base game.

[chrispedersen]

Not pointless when you're throwing them *at* a niefle. Or a Lanka.

[Incabulos]

There are a few things going on there, one is some readme errors (mainly I forgot to update the readme for the 1.4 gold cost tweaks). On top of that there was some weapon buggines with cavalry in 1.3 that was fixed in 1.4. But I think the most confusing thing is CB reduces the base resource cost of cavalry - not the equipment cost. So the listed rec prices are just a reduction of arbitrary barding rec values present in in the base game.

ok so there is not really a drastic reduction in the resource requirement for Bogarus to field cavalry correct? So I would still need to rely on high production values to be able to field a decent cav force.

[archaeolept]

yes - but it is not just a question of the resource cost, but what you get for that cost. The best bogarus hvy cavalry now costs 45 instead of 50, which is nice but no earth-shaker, but has a double 12 pt warhorse hoof attack instead of the single 10 pointer it had before. That's a real improvement in combat effectiveness that justifes plumping points into production.

[Incabulos]

Ok so their effectiveness has gone up but their resource cost as stayed the same, so much more worth the investment. How can you see the warhorse hoof is a double attack btw? (again my apologies for the inane questions) it looks to me like the single normal hoof was just replaced by a single warhorse hoof.

The standaard malaia has a broadsword a lance and a normal hoof.
The 1.4 malaia has a broadsword,warhorse hoof and a lance.
The 1.3 malaia has a broadsword a warhorse hoof and a normal hoof.

Thanks again for your help and time in answering these base questions!

[chrispedersen]

According to the documentation, star of heroes has a vastly increased area of effect.

However, while that was true in 1.3, it is no longer true in 1.4 so either the aoe got dropped or its a documentation error. More likely the latter.

[Sombre]

It shouldn't have double warhorse hoof attacks - none of the other heavy cav do. Sounds like another bug. Poor Bogarus cavalary :[

[quantum_mechani]

Eh, as far as I can see they only have one hoof attack. ;)

[archaeolept]

yeah sorry - it was late.

clearly they need another one!11 ;)

[JimMorrison]

They need a Vicious Russian Horse Bite attack, at STR-5.

:happy:

[cleveland]

While updating the forging references, I discovered that the Demon Whip is Construction-2 in CBM 1.4

The Demon Whip has the same AOE-1 Small Area Fire effect as the Fire Brand; in other words, automatic AOE-1 damage is now attainable at the Construction-2 tier.

This seems like a disruptive technology to me. Won't this be a boon to fire nations? Square-clearing thugs before the 1st winter? Thoughts?

[Sombre]

Is it automatic, or does it require a hit? In other words, is it secondaryeffectalways like the brands, or secondaryeffect? I imagine it is secondaryeffectalways as aoe weapons usually are.

[quantum_mechani]

I certainly hope someone builds some thugs with them, as it is I don't think I have seen one forged yet, ever. It's possible const 2 is too early, but there are a lot of great items even base game at const 2.

[chrispedersen]

As I recall, the demon whips are F1D1, which restricts its gamebalance issues somewhat (as opposed to straight F2, for example).

I don't think it will hurt balance too much. The major candidate for examination I suppose is Abysia.

[chrispedersen]

Under CBM 1.3 the Master of the Games - Multi hero for Ermor
and probably pythium, has at least a typo, and possibly an error.

attacks are generic sword, generic sword,,

ie., either an extra comma or a missing attack.
I presume its the same problem in 1.4

[Redeyes]

As I recall, the demon whips are F1D1, which restricts its gamebalance issues somewhat (as opposed to straight F2, for example).They are fire one so I imagine you might see a lot of them from now on, perhaps not, it's not like they'll have a bigger spot in the mid-end game than earlier ;)

[Tifone]

weren't they F1B1?

[Redeyes]

Fire 1 Construction 4 in 1.3
Fire 1 Blood 2 without CBM

[chrispedersen]

returning to the master of games, for both ermor and pythium
I believe I have located the bug.

They reference weapons 770, and 771 which are not in the .dm file, nor are they referenced as weapons in Edi's db. At least not 3.17.

[Tifone]

Lol, a great reduction.
Still a bit of Blood wasn't a bad touch for a "Demon Whip"...

[chrispedersen]

Due to a bug, Nature, added to a pretender, gives no benefit, unlike virtually every other path.

I'd like to suggest adding regeneration to the Green Dragon

[Endoperez]

Due to a bug, Nature, added to a pretender, gives no benefit, unlike virtually every other path.

I'd like to suggest adding regeneration to the Green Dragon


What? What bug? What benefit?

None of the other sorceries give physical benefit to mages with them, just increased leadership ability. The increased supply creation from Nature isn't that much worse than, say, ability to lead few more magic beings (Astral) or undead (Death, Blood).

[chrispedersen]

Earth gives prot.
Fire gives attack
air give precision.... etc.

IF you are a being that already has regen (gaia etc) at one point nature used to increase your regen.

Many of the mages got some bonus under CBM. I'm suggestion something I believe would be thematic for the dragons. Dragons are *not* popular chassis, and so like many of the other unpopular choices, a minor boost would not be untoward to increase competitiveness

[Sombre]

Nature gives supply bonus.

[lch]

Plus more years to get old of age, 50% bonus per level or something.

[lch]

returning to the master of games, for both ermor and pythium
I believe I have located the bug.

They reference weapons 770, and 771 which are not in the .dm file, nor are they referenced as weapons in Edi's db. At least not 3.17.
Doesn't have to do with Returning, I think, and definitely not with CBM, because IIRC I got this on new heroes in a game of mine as well. I reported this, but so far the understanding is that it's random data corruption that can't be traced to a specific section of the code and isn't worth the time to hunt for it. If you found a way to reproduce this problem, then go for it and describe how so that the problematic part of code might be dug out and corrected.

[llamabeast]

Why do you mention Returning lch?

[Endoperez]

Earth gives prot.
Fire gives attack
air give precision.... etc.


... and water increases defense. However, only the four elemental paths give stat bonuses.

Astral increases magic leadership, Death and Blood increase undead leadership, Nature increases maxage and gives supply bonus.

[lch]

Why do you mention Returning lch?
Because chrispedersen had the word "returning" in front of his sentence and that was the first post on this page that I started reading, I didn't go back further. :p In any case, it's a bug in vanilla game, and it would be good if somebody came up with a foolproof way to reproduce it, if just for a specific turn file.

[Turin]

Doesn't have to do with Returning, I think, and definitely not with CBM, because IIRC I got this on new heroes in a game of mine as well. I reported this, but so far the understanding is that it's random data corruption that can't be traced to a specific section of the code and isn't worth the time to hunt for it. If you found a way to reproduce this problem, then go for it and describe how so that the problematic part of code might be dug out and corrected.

I gave them "skills of the gladiator" in worthy heroes, which was a variety of newly defined weapons with armloss or heartfinding as the effect. Might be possible that the new weapon define got dropped in CBM.

[Wrana]

Two questions:
Why make Hidden in Sand/Snow cheaper? I remember them being excellent as is...
EA Ulm I think would be better served if its Warriors got hatchets instead of axes - this would both reduce 2-weapon penalty and defense penalties for axes. And with their strength they would cause respectable damage anyway... AND this would allow to mass them faster.
Another thing on EA Ulm - right now it's better to use Shamans as thugs than Warrior Smiths (see discussion in Baalz MA Ulm guide). Maybe Smiths should get some stats improvement or made holy (not priests!) for this purpose?
Some more questions pending until after complete reading...
Wait - one more question! What to do with male Titan?! He seems badly in need of improvement... Maybe add your Divine Lightning to him? (And I would also think on General of the West - berserkering? fear? magic sword?)

[Trumanator]

Is there a way to have the titan add lightning damage to any weapons he wields? It would be thematic with the "lighning fist" attack.

[Tifone]

Or his thunder fist going AoE 1. That would be nice.

[darloth]

Attached is a zip containing a modified .dm file with all of the errors mentioned in this thread fixed, and ran through a spellchecker to fix all of the thier to their errors and similar. Hope that's helpful.

[Aezeal]

Well Trumanator and Tifone unless I'm mistaken that would not be very hard at all actually :D

[Sombre]

Trumantor's suggestion is actually impossible. Lightning damage is a matter of weapons, not something you can attach to a unit.

Of course it can be made aoe1.

[Trumanator]

What sort of timeframe are we looking at for a debugged 1.41? I am considering starting my own game and would like to use this, but it seems to have a number of bugs. Also, CONGRATS and KUDOS for doing this, it's an amazing project.

[Redeyes]

From what I can tell, there isn't any game breaking bugs around unless you really hate typos ;)
The current 1.4 does its job well::up:

[Incabulos]

LA Bogarus has a couple of mis-equipped cav units as far as I could tell.

[quantum_mechani]

And which are those?

[Incabulos]

The warhorse hoof, is actually the only thing. the conversation got confused by talk of double hoof attacks which none of them have. So either the notes erroneously say a Grid has a warhorse hoof, or the warhorse hoof is missing.


CB 1.4
Black Hood 17 gld 17 rsc (notes don't mention gold change)
Styag 30 gld 25 rsc (notes say 35 gold)
Grid 25 gld 30 rsc (notes don't mention gold change, missing warhorse hoof)
Malaia 45 gld 42 rsc (notes don't mention gold change)
Knyaz 35 gld 14 rsc (notes say cost 40 gold)
Veliki 50 gld 21 rsc (notes say cost 60 gold)


P.S thanks for all the hard work and creativity!

[Kadelake]

There seem to be some errors in the readme file. Deamon whip is listed as con 4 but seems to be con 2 ingame. Also implementor axe is listed as D1E0 but seems to be D1E1 ingame.

[quantum_mechani]

Attached is a zip containing a modified .dm file with all of the errors mentioned in this thread fixed, and ran through a spellchecker to fix all of the thier to their errors and similar. Hope that's helpful.
Thank you very much, this is quite helpful. :)

And thanks for all the typo and error submissions, I'm going to try to release another minor update today (though as has been pointed out even as it stands 1.4 is less buggy than 1.3).

[Tifone]

Plz name the new one in an unambiguous way my friend, I'm gonna use it in an hopefully large MP game soon and I'd gladly avoid confusion :D 1.41 or something else, you decide ;)

[Wrana]

And I DO hate typos!
Not to repeat what was already mentioned and seems to be fixed by spellchecking :) I'll add some more things I think erroneous (mind, some of them were quite probably already in it by 1.3 - which still doesn't make them right!):
General:
Across-the-board cheap commanders and across-the-board Stealth 20 seem both unthematic and not good from the balance point of view. Commanders SHOULD cost more than common troopers and humble scouts SHOULDN'T be uncatcheable - especially ones which would stand out among population (Markata scouts with high Stealth are understandable, as well as those races with magical disguise ability. Human nations scouts can be better than Stealth 0, but not by much -and even this isn't necessary!). And some troops are too cheap, too - say, Raptors should be more costly then human light infantry, and Satir Infantry - more than Sneaks!
I think it would be more thematically appropriate for all Engineers to have Hammer as basic weapon, not dagger...
I think that javelins should get more shots in general - probably with Roman-based heavys getting new weapon called "heavy javelin" or somesuch. Light throwers SHOULD get some choice of not entering melee!
There seems to be just too damned much of multiheroes! And while some are good enough, Davata appearing at first year at Lanka castle may completely change course of a game. I think that even if we drop half of these, Worthy Heroes would remain more than worthy. :) And base encumbrance 1 for many heroes seems too good.
Base Resource cost for cavalry differs wildly. In many cases heavys have base 1, while in others lights have 3-5. I think it just needs to be decided upon once, then applied across the board.
gods:
Lady of Spring reduced Water skill, pathcost 80, added Forest Survival - seems quite unplayable in such form. Of course, Water+Nature = clam-maker, but I still don't think it so big a problem. And Survival is both quite useless for her and not particularaly thematic!
Monolith - Nature gems production doesn't seem thematic. I think some Luck-increasing would be better. Barring this, Astral gems...
Lawgiver - I think pathcost should be lower, as he is more of a Rainbow Pretender than SC-class. Then he could be more costly...
Nataraja - Astral 2 doesn't seem to be necessary - old way he could be taken magicless as expansion engine or get 1 path needed to bring magic diversity which wasn't necessarily Astral. And Astral bless isn't particularly handy for most nations...
Asynja - I think Glamour would be better for her than magic armor...
Lord of War - as I mentioned, something to improve his actual combat performance is needed. As he started out as mortal and his Dom score reflects it, it's possible to make mag. paths cheaper for him...
Deva - while thematically appropriate for Lanka, etc., doesn't allow bless strategy almost required for them. And none of India-based nations require SC Pretender (it may be taken for Bandar Log to open up Blood, but that's all)...
Mother of Monsters - seems to need either better natural protection or body slot - not creatures spawning... Or regeneration?
Virtue - as I already said, Astral seems to be somewhat redundant. Or it should just replace Air...
EA Marverny Horn Blower appears as a god in some other nations (at least, it did in 1.3.). There seems to be some "Horn Champion" Pretender for Marverny. It, however, lacks #pathcost and so gets it at 50 - surely inappropriate for mortal Pretender (it probably also should have higher stats to reflect his status as hero).
troops, etc.:
"Heavy Ashigaru Armor" sounds silly - these troops were lightly armored by definition. Nor should stealthy Bandits have heavy armor. I understand they aren't very good in melee - but they shouldn't be good! Maybe just making them somewhat cheaper is an answer...
EA Arco scout doesn't need higher morale - if he's fighting, it's already wrong!
EA Arco Chariot Commanders especially doesn't need to be cheap - and considering who they are based upon, it's far better to give them appropriate stats to make them thugs!
Oreiad probably should be somewhat tougher than mere humans - after all, they ARE spirits of the mountains. Then that high seduction would probably not be necessary.
Wind Riders probably shouldn't have lances - especially as in this era such are generally absent...
EA Ermor Equites shouldn't have Warhorse hoof - they aren't mounted on warhorses! And Ermor's strength is in its infantry in any case!
As I've already said, EA Ulm would be better with hatchets... something should probably also be done with their Iron& Steel Warriors...
Sauromatia Warrior Queen costs more than a Priestess. I think it should be vice versa.
Androphage Archers should cost even more - until known bug with poison-always-works arrows will be fixed - both in gold and resources.
EA Caelum Eagle King seems silly to me flying in plate armor - say, weightless scale would be more appropriate.
Bandar Archers shouldn't be Def 8 Mor 10 - they are elite warriors, trained from childhood! And they are not particularly good as archers anyway. If you think them too good, just make them more costly - it would be more appropriate.
Palankasha at 55 seem slightly too costly - and they have the same price in basegame anyway... While Asara seem to have no niche, even at 35...
Slave Troll - what's it??? And R'lyeh isn't the sea nation most needful of help coming on land!
ME Arcos - why new Mounted Commander? if it needs some to bring Elephantes to front, it can carry independents!
Hoplite Commander with Move 1 won't be taken by anyone, at whatever price...
Jotun Hurler has "none" as first weapon...
If Shuten-doji is made more of a thug, it should probably get less Leadership...
Oceania ME should be improved. There was a thread about this, which ended in almost nothing:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=39640
LE Ulm Pikeneers don't need higher morale - they are chaff of the nation. At the same time, I think Pikemen should be redone in small teams - like was done with Skavenslaves in Skaven mod - this will both make them less vulnerable to trample and more able to bring dreaded pikehedge to bear.
Jomon Samurai Archers get Pre 10. Though I don't estimate actual samurai archery very high, I still think that from the balance point of view this is a main defence Jomon has from enemy shhoters - so Pre 11 is appropriate...
Bogarus I still think needs total revamping. Still, for now I think that Black Hoods shouldn't have combination of high base resources, full helm and dagger! And I can say you there weren't so armed guys among Russian nomad Foederati! I would offer reduce base resource cost, take cheaper helmet (in my mod it's "Leather Hood") and either some scimitar-type blade, morningstar (unfortunately, there aren't lighter horseman's flail nomads actually used often in the game right now) or just spear.
Malaya Druzhina shouldn't actually have lances, by the way - real lances were used in Russia very rarely (only by Novgorod boyars and Polish/German mercenaries). They can, however, use heavy melee weapons - even glaives were often used from horseback in later period.
I don't think blowpipes should get 2 attacks, even if I agree they suck...
For Horse Tribe cavalry wasteland survival isn't so appropriate - they are plains dwellers, after all...
Hoburg militia seems to lose its slings in this version while they were appropriate...
Bartholomeus th Patriarch got base Encumbrance 6. Shouldn't it be somewhat less?
Hanif - Member of the Third Tier has 13 hp. Isn't it too much?
Hildegard the Heroine is armed with spear and has leather armor. Shouldn't she has something better?
Daidalos the Maker of the Labirinth has reduced stats, but no old age. Shouldn't it be vice versa?
Anthromachus has oldage 10000 and immortality. Why???
King of Legends has just 8 ap. Should be more?
Master with the Iron Crutch should be somewhat tougher..
Abasi (Machaka Hero) as an assassin seems plainly silly. Stealthy thug I think is enough.
Ebuart the Guardian of the Tree gets castle defence. Why?
Dwarf Elder for EA Vanheim gets research bonus. I'd say Forge bonus would be better.
Lug the Long-Handed doesn't have stealth as designer decision (as said by KO). I don't think it good idea to give him one. He is already good, and if you want to improve him, I'd just increase his Forge bonus!

By the way, I agree that Demonwhip should require Blood level to forge! :)

[Tifone]

I see the reason of several of your points wrana but some of the ones you suggest would be very big changes that go against the purpose of the mod as stated several times by q_m afaik :)

[JimMorrison]

It is an awful big list. :p And I don't think it's very objective..... You state that starting Astral on the Virtue is pointless/redundant? I for one, use the Virtue. I found her useful in vanilla, and only more so in CBM. Remember, the point of this mod isn't to cater to any particular playstyle, but to open up more options.

Also, I used Asynja as a low-cost-disposable-SC for Vanheim, and she performed admirably at the job. I think, better than she would have with Glamor and no armor.

I think you're mostly just being picky, though I like seeing someone close to the subject matter striving for accuracy in Bogarus, for example. <3

[chrispedersen]

Here were some I noted in various places, I don't know if they got fixed:

1. The ermor/pythium multihero has a problem on his attacks.
He references weapons 770++ which are not listed (they are in worthy heros).

Worthy heros has the code, however, they reference secondary effects which are not mentioned in the modders manual, so I have no idea if they work.

Really needs to be fixed as gladiators are pretty pointless otherwise.

2. I also suggest that the golden tusk is probably broken for similar reasons.

3. I have had problem with the Golden Helmets and Golden Scale mail as well.

4. CBM 1.3 lists Axe of hate as Defense 14.
Its actually damage 14, not defense 14.

5. Many people do not play with confusion - but it is devestating in its current incarnation - possibly better than lightning spamming. The number of spell effects 5+ if I recall correctly is simply too high. Bump it up a level either in research or casting requirements (1 air !!!!)

6. Bump umbral back down one level in research. Yes, it is a strong spell. However, Agartha is not a powerhouse contender.

7. Light vs Darkness. Darkness is level 6 - and if someone hasn't researched up the light tree, they can be hosed for a *very very* long time. Make a version of Solar Radiance that doesnt burn eyes or undead - all it does is counter darkness.

8. The Bow of Agonizing death has a shorter range than all other magic bows; it doesn't seem to have been the beneficiary of the bow range update that was otherwise applied across the board.

[quantum_mechani]

And I DO hate typos!
Not to repeat what was already mentioned and seems to be fixed by spellchecking :) I'll add some more things I think erroneous (mind, some of them were quite probably already in it by 1.3 - which still doesn't make them right!):
General:
Across-the-board cheap commanders and across-the-board Stealth 20 seem both unthematic and not good from the balance point of view. Commanders SHOULD cost more than common troopers and humble scouts SHOULDN'T be uncatcheable - especially ones which would stand out among population (Markata scouts with high Stealth are understandable, as well as those races with magical disguise ability. Human nations scouts can be better than Stealth 0, but not by much -and even this isn't necessary!). And some troops are too cheap, too - say, Raptors should be more costly then human light infantry, and Satir Infantry - more than Sneaks!
I think it would be more thematically appropriate for all Engineers to have Hammer as basic weapon, not dagger...
I think that javelins should get more shots in general - probably with Roman-based heavys getting new weapon called "heavy javelin" or somesuch. Light throwers SHOULD get some choice of not entering melee!
There seems to be just too damned much of multiheroes! And while some are good enough, Davata appearing at first year at Lanka castle may completely change course of a game. I think that even if we drop half of these, Worthy Heroes would remain more than worthy. :) And base encumbrance 1 for many heroes seems too good.
Base Resource cost for cavalry differs wildly. In many cases heavys have base 1, while in others lights have 3-5. I think it just needs to be decided upon once, then applied across the board.
gods:
Lady of Spring reduced Water skill, pathcost 80, added Forest Survival - seems quite unplayable in such form. Of course, Water+Nature = clam-maker, but I still don't think it so big a problem. And Survival is both quite useless for her and not particularaly thematic!
Monolith - Nature gems production doesn't seem thematic. I think some Luck-increasing would be better. Barring this, Astral gems...
Lawgiver - I think pathcost should be lower, as he is more of a Rainbow Pretender than SC-class. Then he could be more costly...
Nataraja - Astral 2 doesn't seem to be necessary - old way he could be taken magicless as expansion engine or get 1 path needed to bring magic diversity which wasn't necessarily Astral. And Astral bless isn't particularly handy for most nations...
Asynja - I think Glamour would be better for her than magic armor...
Lord of War - as I mentioned, something to improve his actual combat performance is needed. As he started out as mortal and his Dom score reflects it, it's possible to make mag. paths cheaper for him...
Deva - while thematically appropriate for Lanka, etc., doesn't allow bless strategy almost required for them. And none of India-based nations require SC Pretender (it may be taken for Bandar Log to open up Blood, but that's all)...
Mother of Monsters - seems to need either better natural protection or body slot - not creatures spawning... Or regeneration?
Virtue - as I already said, Astral seems to be somewhat redundant. Or it should just replace Air...
EA Marverny Horn Blower appears as a god in some other nations (at least, it did in 1.3.). There seems to be some "Horn Champion" Pretender for Marverny. It, however, lacks #pathcost and so gets it at 50 - surely inappropriate for mortal Pretender (it probably also should have higher stats to reflect his status as hero).
troops, etc.:
"Heavy Ashigaru Armor" sounds silly - these troops were lightly armored by definition. Nor should stealthy Bandits have heavy armor. I understand they aren't very good in melee - but they shouldn't be good! Maybe just making them somewhat cheaper is an answer...
EA Arco scout doesn't need higher morale - if he's fighting, it's already wrong!
EA Arco Chariot Commanders especially doesn't need to be cheap - and considering who they are based upon, it's far better to give them appropriate stats to make them thugs!
Oreiad probably should be somewhat tougher than mere humans - after all, they ARE spirits of the mountains. Then that high seduction would probably not be necessary.
Wind Riders probably shouldn't have lances - especially as in this era such are generally absent...
EA Ermor Equites shouldn't have Warhorse hoof - they aren't mounted on warhorses! And Ermor's strength is in its infantry in any case!
As I've already said, EA Ulm would be better with hatchets... something should probably also be done with their Iron& Steel Warriors...
Sauromatia Warrior Queen costs more than a Priestess. I think it should be vice versa.
Androphage Archers should cost even more - until known bug with poison-always-works arrows will be fixed - both in gold and resources.
EA Caelum Eagle King seems silly to me flying in plate armor - say, weightless scale would be more appropriate.
Bandar Archers shouldn't be Def 8 Mor 10 - they are elite warriors, trained from childhood! And they are not particularly good as archers anyway. If you think them too good, just make them more costly - it would be more appropriate.
Palankasha at 55 seem slightly too costly - and they have the same price in basegame anyway... While Asara seem to have no niche, even at 35...
Slave Troll - what's it??? And R'lyeh isn't the sea nation most needful of help coming on land!
ME Arcos - why new Mounted Commander? if it needs some to bring Elephantes to front, it can carry independents!
Hoplite Commander with Move 1 won't be taken by anyone, at whatever price...
Jotun Hurler has "none" as first weapon...
If Shuten-doji is made more of a thug, it should probably get less Leadership...
Oceania ME should be improved. There was a thread about this, which ended in almost nothing:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=39640
LE Ulm Pikeneers don't need higher morale - they are chaff of the nation. At the same time, I think Pikemen should be redone in small teams - like was done with Skavenslaves in Skaven mod - this will both make them less vulnerable to trample and more able to bring dreaded pikehedge to bear.
Jomon Samurai Archers get Pre 10. Though I don't estimate actual samurai archery very high, I still think that from the balance point of view this is a main defence Jomon has from enemy shhoters - so Pre 11 is appropriate...
Bogarus I still think needs total revamping. Still, for now I think that Black Hoods shouldn't have combination of high base resources, full helm and dagger! And I can say you there weren't so armed guys among Russian nomad Foederati! I would offer reduce base resource cost, take cheaper helmet (in my mod it's "Leather Hood") and either some scimitar-type blade, morningstar (unfortunately, there aren't lighter horseman's flail nomads actually used often in the game right now) or just spear.
Malaya Druzhina shouldn't actually have lances, by the way - real lances were used in Russia very rarely (only by Novgorod boyars and Polish/German mercenaries). They can, however, use heavy melee weapons - even glaives were often used from horseback in later period.
I don't think blowpipes should get 2 attacks, even if I agree they suck...
For Horse Tribe cavalry wasteland survival isn't so appropriate - they are plains dwellers, after all...
Hoburg militia seems to lose its slings in this version while they were appropriate...
Bartholomeus th Patriarch got base Encumbrance 6. Shouldn't it be somewhat less?
Hanif - Member of the Third Tier has 13 hp. Isn't it too much?
Hildegard the Heroine is armed with spear and has leather armor. Shouldn't she has something better?
Daidalos the Maker of the Labirinth has reduced stats, but no old age. Shouldn't it be vice versa?
Anthromachus has oldage 10000 and immortality. Why???
King of Legends has just 8 ap. Should be more?
Master with the Iron Crutch should be somewhat tougher..
Abasi (Machaka Hero) as an assassin seems plainly silly. Stealthy thug I think is enough.
Ebuart the Guardian of the Tree gets castle defence. Why?
Dwarf Elder for EA Vanheim gets research bonus. I'd say Forge bonus would be better.
Lug the Long-Handed doesn't have stealth as designer decision (as said by KO). I don't think it good idea to give him one. He is already good, and if you want to improve him, I'd just increase his Forge bonus!

By the way, I agree that Demonwhip should require Blood level to forge! :)
Wow, that's a lot to address, I'll take a shot at it.

*Arcoss the board cheap commanders/scouts with stealth 20 isn't quite what it seems. If the national version of these were the only options, I'd agree it's a bit pointless. But the independent versions of these everyone uses instead (becuase they don't eat fort turns) were not boosted, providing at least a tiny advantage to using something else.

*Hammers for daggers sounds reasonable, not that there is any real effect.

*Raptors and satyrs are not more expensive than human light infantry base game, I'm not sure why CB should change that.

*Javelins seem pretty well balanced as is, I don't really want to mess with them.

*I agree a bit with multiheroes, but there is no real way to scale them down without removing them altogether. And personally I think the vast majority of people are against removing any heroes WH adds. It's also really hard to imagine the heroes being unbalancing, I recall someone did a mod with far more crazy heroes, to rather mediocre game effect.

*I'm actually really fond of the lady of springs, that's why in CB I tried to set her apart a bit from all the other titan options. I think she is reasonable if not outstanding choice for many nations (certainly more than the great majority of base game pretenders), though I would not be adverse to a good idea for improvement. I don't really see why forest survival is unthematic, she seems clearly a woodland type god.

*I think it's pretty debatable whether astral or nature gems are better on the monolith, I don't have strong opinion either way. Luck effects seem less thematic however, and would also be harder to implement.

*I didn't mess with the path cost on the lawgiver because it seems Illwinter must have felt it was an important thematic point, given similar pretenders path cost.

*I don't see any particular reason you object to Nataraja magic?
It should be considered that he is 0 points base game and almost all titans got 50 points cheaper or equivalent boosts.

*Similar to the Lawgiver, the lack of glamour seems purposeful by illwinter.

*Lower path cost on the lord of war would seem to imply a mage not a warrior.

*I don't see a particular suggestion on the Deva? In any case she is a very decent expander I don't see why she has to be great at a bless too.

*Boosts for mother of monsters is not a bad idea, but removing the monster spawn seems strange.

*Hornblower is a bag, and one that only appears in worthy heroes by itself, not CB.

*Heavy ashigaru armor only means it's slightly heavier than average ashigaru armor, which does not seem so unreasonable. Dominions has much heavier troops with stealth.

*Extra morale for a scout is admittedly a rather frivolously change, but I'm not sure why it would be cause for compliant. I just thought he should get something for having a special sprite. ;)

*Giving chariot commander super-human stats seems far more unthematic than a somewhat cheaper price. Though boosting the stats a few points, in addition to the price cut is pretty reasonable idea.

*Odreiad seem quite usable and thematic as is, I can't think why I'd mess with them.

*I can't think of a good reason to take away wind riders lances, which they also have base game.

*Possibly modding Ulm axes to be shorter would be reasonable, but I'm not sure it would be particularly thematic or helpful.

*Why should a warrior priestess cost more than a queen? Also, I believe it is similar base game.

*I'm inclined to agree on the poison archers, but significant nerfs, especially nation specific ones, almost always result in backlash.

*Reduced stats seems much more appropriate for the lowest class bandar than increased gold cost.

*Boosting eagle kings is the last thing I want to do.

*I think the palenkasha is still usually the best Lanka sacred even now, you might be right about the Asara though.

*The slave troll was a ready made unit already in the game, that even mentioned Ry'leh. Given EA Ry'leh is widely regarded as one of the weaker sea nations, giving them the unit seems a nice addition.

*MA Arco has the mounted commander base game as well.

*You are probably right about the hoplite commander, however arco has too many military commander to properly differentiate.

*Hurler sounds like a bug alright.

*I don't see why I should reduce the Shuten-Dji's leadership, they are hardly uber units that replace all Shinuyamas other options.

*Inter-nation balance is not the main goal of CB, but it's possible I could find some extra boost for Oceania. It should be noted CB does boost the early summons they can use greatly though.

*I really don't like combining several human units into one, leads to all kinds of weirdness with things like soulslay.

*Given that even now Jomon is most likely to recruit very little but samauri archers I'm reluctant to boost them back up.

*Blowpipes do not get 2 attacks... though I must admit thats a nice idea. ;)

*Bogarus cavalry: Not bad suggestions, though I'm a bit reluctant to so greatly revamp the way Illwinter set them out.

*Various heroes: Most of what you mention was put in place by Turin, I have not gone over it with a fine tooth comb. However, people are in general against reducing the boosts Turin gave to heroes, even if they are somewhat marginal thematicness wise.

*Ideally, I agree on demon whip. In practice, I'm afraid it would see little to no use that way. I did consider an only blood slave cost but that seems worse.

Cris:

1. Gladiator is fixed.

2. I'll have to look into that.

3. I believe that should be fixed.

4. Hopefully I spotted that, pretty minor either way though.

5. Confusion has been bumped up to a2.

6. I'd much rather find other ways to boost Agartha than improve a summon so far overshadowing their others.

7. Not really opposed to this but it would be a fair amount of work.

8. Improving the range sounds quite reasonable.


Anyway, I really do appreciate feedback, so I hope everyone keeps it coming. :up:

[Turin]

Bartholomeus th Patriarch got base Encumbrance 6. Shouldn't it be somewhat less.
Hanif - Member of the Third Tier has 13 hp. Isn't it too much?
Hildegard the Heroine is armed with spear and has leather armor. Shouldn't she has something better?
Daidalos the Maker of the Labirinth has reduced stats, but no old age. Shouldn't it be vice versa?
Anthromachus has oldage 10000 and immortality. Why???
King of Legends has just 8 ap. Should be more?
Master with the Iron Crutch should be somewhat tougher..
Abasi (Machaka Hero) as an assassin seems plainly silly. Stealthy thug I think is enough.
Ebuart the Guardian of the Tree gets castle defence. Why?
Dwarf Elder for EA Vanheim gets research bonus. I'd say Forge bonus would be better.
Lug the Long-Handed doesn't have stealth as designer decision (as said by KO). I don't think it good idea to give him one. He is already good, and if you want to improve him, I'd just increase his Forge bonus!


Since this is effectively worthy heroes feedback, I'll reply:

Bartholomeus: A relic from dom2, where arch theurgs had 8 base encumbrance, so reducing it to 6 was a buff. Should be brought in line with dom3 arch theurgs, so a base of 3 would be fitting.

Member of the third tier: black priests have 12, so I don't think 13 hp is too much for a hero unit.

Hildegard: See this is what qm means when he says people don't like him removing buffs from my heroes. I made her basically a mage hero by giving her n2a2 instead of n1a1 she has in cbm. With n2a2 she obviously does not need good equipment. n2a2 is probably too good in dom3 though by giving ulm access to 2 new paths. So I'd probably boost her to n1 a2 and leave the equipment the same.

Daidalos: Again a relic from dom2. Should be modified.

Anthromachus: The problem was that it's really hard to make an army leader hero interesting/ worthwile compared to a bunch of indie commanders. His description mentions him being reputedly immortal, so I just made him immortal for real.

King of Legends: Dunno I saw no reason to change his AP. Could be modified to be the same as a generic mummy.

Master with the Iron Crutch: He has the body of a crippled old man. Why should he be tougher?

Abasi: From the description:"He quickly flayed the animal and used the skin to swim unseen past his enemies. When he had passed the guards, he found himself in the camp of the enemy king. He took his log and thrashed the camp before the enemies could react." Sounds like an assasination to me.

Ebuart: Castle def could be dropped, but it's a small buff and he is a guardian so it's somewhat fitting.

Dwarf Elder: Again a (probably necessary) nerf from qm. They had forgebonus 20 in my version, which is probably too powerful, but forgebonus 10 would be nice.

Lug: Should lose stealth per the developers intention. I had assumed it was an oversight since he has glamour and added it without giving it much thought.

[Wrana]

Wow, that's a lot to address, I'll take a shot at it.

That was without spells and items, which I am not so familiar for now, and am not sure about their effect on balance. Maybe some more on them in the end... ;)

*Arcoss the board cheap commanders/scouts with stealth 20 isn't quite what it seems. If the national version of these were the only options, I'd agree it's a bit pointless. But the independent versions of these everyone uses instead (becuase they don't eat fort turns) were not boosted, providing at least a tiny advantage to using something else.

This I understand. But still, it isn't logical. And it, for example, removes advantage Bandars have with their Markata scouts, which were not boosted, or Vans scouts. Maybe some boost would be in order, but surely not +20 to all! As for commanders - they shouldn't be so dirt cheap in any case. I can't say whether its' possible to prevent broad usage of independent commanders, nor whether is any point of trying it. Some national commanders bring clear advantages, and there are no independents with Ld 80+, for example...
*Hammers for daggers sounds reasonable, not that there is any real effect.

No effect, but more logical. :)
*Raptors and satyrs are not more expensive than human light infantry base game, I'm not sure why CB should change that.

But in example I brought, satyr sneaks WERE cheaper than satyr infantry in base game! :) And you specifically mentioned that an idea was to make common human infantry cheaper... %)

*Javelins seem pretty well balanced as is, I don't really want to mess with them.

Do you use javelin version light cavalry much? ;) Do you use peltasts much? In independents light infantry I would agree maybe - but then, they are just a chaff anyway...

*I agree a bit with multiheroes, but there is no real way to scale them down without removing them altogether. And personally I think the vast majority of people are against removing any heroes WH adds. It's also really hard to imagine the heroes being unbalancing, I recall someone did a mod with far more crazy heroes, to rather mediocre game effect.

Maybe. I just don't try such mods. And if the way is to remove them altogether... ;) (I agree that track each one and patiently scale him/her down is a crazy work)

*I'm actually really fond of the lady of springs, that's why in CB I tried to set her apart a bit from all the other titan options. I think she is reasonable if not outstanding choice for many nations (certainly more than the great majority of base game pretenders), though I would not be adverse to a good idea for improvement. I don't really see why forest survival is unthematic, she seems clearly a woodland type god.
So, you make paths for her as costly as for a Dragon due to being fond of her?! Girls, beware! ;) Agree that she is a fair choice in basegame, but do not that she should be nerfed in CBM. The only possible reason I already listed - someone ;) was afraid that she should be used with Astral to make and use pearls in crazy amounts. I don't think actual danger is so great and she is weaker than most Titans so I'd think she should retain pathcost 50...

*I think it's pretty debatable whether astral or nature gems are better on the monolith, I don't have strong opinion either way. Luck effects seem less thematic however, and would also be harder to implement.
I'd think more about Earth gems, actually, but this looks bad with it having Astral/Nature... :( Astral seems slightly more thematic to me as Stonehenge, etc. were used as neolithic observatories -> astronomy -> stars -> Astral gems... ;)

*I didn't mess with the path cost on the lawgiver because it seems Illwinter must have felt it was an important thematic point, given similar pretenders path cost.
Possibly. Do you know how many people actually use him for MA Mictlan Pretender? I tried... :(

*I don't see any particular reason you object to Nataraja magic?
It should be considered that he is 0 points base game and almost all titans got 50 points cheaper or equivalent boosts.
Agree that he is cheap in basegame and it makes him useful. ;)

*Similar to the Lawgiver, the lack of glamour seems purposeful by illwinter.
Possibly. I seem to remember that she had it in Dom2...

*Lower path cost on the lord of war would seem to imply a mage not a warrior.
Problem is, he is too weak as a warrior without it! :crazy: I tried to think up something which would make him strong enough in combat, but... :( Basic Awe is still more unthematic. Berserk wouldn't increase his damage output enough. Fear? Recuperation???

*I don't see a particular suggestion on the Deva? In any case she is a very decent expander I don't see why she has to be great at a bless too.
Right now, I'd just like you (and others) to think on it. She is decent expander, yes, but the problem is most nations where she would be thematic Pretender (all India-based, i.e.) do not need such! :mad:

*Boosts for mother of monsters is not a bad idea, but removing the monster spawn seems strange.
Well, actual character she is based on birthed just a few: Pan, Chimera and Pegasus iirc. :) And chaff-generation seems to be unworthy of such a character for me... ;)

*Hornblower is a bag, and one that only appears in worthy heroes by itself, not CB.
I can almost swear I've seen it in CBM 1.3 few days ago!

*Heavy ashigaru armor only means it's slightly heavier than average ashigaru armor, which does not seem so unreasonable. Dominions has much heavier troops with stealth.
Well, Avalonian Wardens have magic to account for it! Bandits don't. They use piecemeal armor, having an eye on not getting caught by actual troops. Probably you could slightly boost their Def or aps to reflect this, but armor?!

*Extra morale for a scout is admittedly a rather frivolously change, but I'm not sure why it would be cause for compliant. I just thought he should get something for having a special sprite. ;)
Well, he has a sling despite being pictured with spear only! :)
Maybe he should get boosted Precision then? ;)

*Giving chariot commander super-human stats seems far more unthematic than a somewhat cheaper price. Though boosting the stats a few points, in addition to the price cut is pretty reasonable idea.
Unthematic?? These guys are based on Homer's heroes, for all goodness! :mad: And "somewhat cheaper price" made them cost less that normal chariots! :crazy" Of course, I didn't mean making them more powerful than, say, Awakened hero or Knight Commanders, but this should be about their level...

*Odreiad seem quite usable and thematic as is, I can't think why I'd mess with them.
Well, they are usable, of course. On the other hand, Rakshasi cost the same iirc, while having better stats...

*I can't think of a good reason to take away wind riders lances, which they also have base game.
Except it would be very awkward to use them from Pegasus-back, you mean? ;) Yes, it is in base game. And no, I don't like it there, too. By the way, I don't remember offhand, but think there are no other troops with big lances in EA... ;)

*Possibly modding Ulm axes to be shorter would be reasonable, but I'm not sure it would be particularly thematic or helpful.
It would be helpful - as I pointed out, this will reduce both attack and defence penalties. And having Def 10 instead of 8 will make them quite more survivable against common troops, at least. And it's thematic as far as most Howard-based fantasy goes: there are nobody wielding 2 big axes in Howard's own stories, nor are in classical Conan movies iirc (big axes are mostly used as hand-and-a-half weapons, quite sensibly).

*Why should a warrior priestess cost more than a queen? Also, I believe it is similar base game.
She is more useful? ;) Can't just look in this case now, but generally priests are more costly than commanders... About queen - yes, it's a good reason, actually - but shouldn't she get some spice for it then?

*I'm inclined to agree on the poison archers, but significant nerfs, especially nation specific ones, almost always result in backlash.
Well, you can always just comment it away as soon as the bug is fixed - though I seem to remember KO saying that they had no idea what causes it, so it could take quite a while... :(

*Reduced stats seems much more appropriate for the lowest class bandar than increased gold cost.
Sorry, but ALL Bandar are higher class! :) And making them less able with weapons than common infantry just looks silly to me.

*Boosting eagle kings is the last thing I want to do.
Can't disagree with this. :) But then, they should get some weak armor (or even none at all) which would allow them to fly without too much ;) magic. I seem to remember something called "gilded cuirass" from somewher...

*I think the palenkasha is still usually the best Lanka sacred even now, you might be right about the Asara though.
Palankasha tend to accumulate afflictions due to having no helms. And Kala-Mukha tend to be used due to the fact they are recruitable-everywhere anyway... About Asara I just don't know what to do. Even if they cost same as Anusara, donkeys are just so much better due to being effective flankers...

*The slave troll was a ready made unit already in the game, that even mentioned Ry'leh. Given EA Ry'leh is widely regarded as one of the weaker sea nations, giving them the unit seems a nice addition.
Never heard both of this, sorry. :angel:

*MA Arco has the mounted commander base game as well.
Then why another was needed??

*You are probably right about the hoplite commander, however arco has too many military commander to properly differentiate.
I don't know. Maybe make of them with bigger Ld but no Standard? Actually, of course, they were just from different ages...

*I don't see why I should reduce the Shuten-Dji's leadership, they are hardly uber units that replace all Shinuyamas other options.
I at least used them in preference to Bakemono Generals in basegame.. Of course, there are many mages and there are Mujinas, but as commander/thug...

*Inter-nation balance is not the main goal of CB, but it's possible I could find some extra boost for Oceania. It should be noted CB does boost the early summons they can use greatly though.
I sincerely hope so. ;)

*I really don't like combining several human units into one, leads to all kinds of weirdness with things like soulslay.
Unless I misunderstand, SS should just trigger second form in this case... Where am I wrong? What I can see are slightly buggy afflictions (especially disease). But a possible alternative would be to make them Size 1 - and this makes them more vulnerable to trample. Another thought was Animalawe - but unfortunately, cavalry isn't considered to be animals (siege penalty it would get would be appropriate - but there are a number of animal-only spells...)

*Given that even now Jomon is most likely to recruit very little but samauri archers I'm reluctant to boost them back up.
Sorry. This I understand. Still seems somewhat, er... not good. Of course, actual Japanese armies were formed just so, but still... ;)

*Blowpipes do not get 2 attacks... though I must admit thats a nice idea. ;)
Sorry, #att confused me. :blush: And while I disagree with this idea strongly, I still don't know why anybody would use them... :confused:

*Bogarus cavalry: Not bad suggestions, though I'm a bit reluctant to so greatly revamp the way Illwinter set them out.
Up to you, of course. My own mod splitting them in 2 nations is still waiting for graphics... One day I will finish it! :mad:

*Various heroes: Most of what you mention was put in place by Turin, I have not gone over it with a fine tooth comb. However, people are in general against reducing the boosts Turin gave to heroes, even if they are somewhat marginal thematicness wise.
Which, of course, doesn't mean they are right. ;) There are good things there - such as Vanlade getting base stats of Hagadrott he is, but many others look pretty silly... :(

*Ideally, I agree on demon whip. In practice, I'm afraid it would see little to no use that way. I did consider an only blood slave cost but that seems worse.

Is it possible for it to require Blood level, but no slaves? Nothing in mod. manual seems to indicate otherwise...

On spells:
I don't see a sense of Spirit Curse costing a gem - iirc, it just curses 1 enemy, as per Curse which doesn't cost anything...
Wild Hunt and Erinies look to get too low level - I think that thematically they should appear later in the game..
Summon Fall Bears - Bears themselves are less useful than other seasonal spirits. Maybe they should get some boost (fear/berserk/recuperation/just higher stats)?
Bane for 4 gems seems too cheap
As does Lamia Queen for 15. Maybe 20?
Great Eagle I see no sense at 7th level even as commander... Lower level?
Amphiptere I would prefer to be summoned in some numbers instead of being commander that can't lead anyone...
Zmey (Bogarus again ;)) I would make somewhat more GoRable by giving some random magic picks (maybe look into item slots, too)...
Summon Kappa - I would prefer to have a possibility of getting some troops of these guys. Is it possible to include 2 versions of the spell?
Celestial Servant - I don't see use in him even at 1 gem apiece. Maybe he should get some non-combat bonus instead (unrest decrease, e.g.)
Cavern Wight at lvl 1 seems too early...
As does Telestic Animation at lvl 2. Especially if you consider nations with reanimating priests...
Astral Window I think quite useful at cost 2 with no need for reduction (not that it matters much - it would eat additional gems for continuation anyway).
Both Internal Alchemy and 1000 Year Ginseng are quite useful. I think they shouldn't get quite so cheap.
Blindness seems too early at research 2.
Hidden in Snow/Sand - while look slightly too costly in basegame, seem to get too cheap here. I'd think closer to 60, considering they produce both strong troops, thugs and added magic diversity...
While I welcome Legions of Steel at research 1, I always use it anyway, so maybe it's too early here.
Why Frost Fiend is cheaper than Devil? I think it actually slightly better and harder to get at (unless you're Niefelheim). Storm Demon I'd say is better than both and Demon Knight worse. Do you disagree?
Hell Power seems too easy at path level 1. Yes, it's risky, but...
Improved Crossbreeding seems to be cheaper than just Crossbreeding. Why?
Why Demon Jester should be commander - and what a sense of it if he can't lead anyone? He surely isn't a good enough thug to summon as such...
Why make Mound Kings poor leaders? They aren't useful in other qualities (except using Fire Bolas, that is).
Also, I disagree with nerfing skeletons. :)
Plus, shields are "rotten" - not "rotted" (don't remember whether this was mentioned already)! :)
On items:
There are several instances (at least, in separate item file) when 1 item appears several times. I don't know how the game handles this, but it can be bug-threatening. Ethereal Crossbow is one, appears as 0 and 4 levels? Demon Whip also.
Boots of the Behemoth look too good for lvl 0.
Bear Claw Talisman appears with mainpath 6 (!). Who needs it then?
And Summer Sword gets const. level 0 - I think it at least useful enough for Lesser Items (2).

All the best!

[Tifone]

What about the Demon Whip being blood only q_m? Like 2B... It would be a weapon mainly for blood nations and it seems quite thematic, a demon that trades his whip for blood slaves :evil:
5 F gems only, seems a little cheap and easy... you decide anyway of course :D

[chrispedersen]

Blood nations do not need a boost. Comparing blood and fire nations, fire is weaker.

I would keep demon whip 1F 1B. The cross path is thematic of demons, and it cuts down on the number of nations building it.
Which I think is important, considering how dropping it down to con-2 is new, and the game implications unclear.

[Wrana]

Since this is effectively worthy heroes feedback, I'll reply:
Thanks. Continuing only on those where I still disagree:

Member of the third tier: black priests have 12, so I don't think 13 hp is too much for a hero unit.
But he's an Illuminati mage, not a priest! :)

Anthromachus: The problem was that it's really hard to make an army leader hero interesting/ worthwile compared to a bunch of indie commanders. His description mentions him being reputedly immortal, so I just made him immortal for real.
But he is free! :) Banner, etc., I think would be enough. And making him able to outlive Egypt, Greece and Byzntine Empire looks, er... hilarious. Immortality is possible, but I don't think it needed - and real immortality is almost unheard of in Greece mythology.

Master with the Iron Crutch: He has the body of a crippled old man. Why should he be tougher?
Because he's Taoist Immortal with a title surely calling to mind some Chinese movies. You know what I'm talking about... ;)

Abasi: From the description:"He quickly flayed the animal and used the skin to swim unseen past his enemies. When he had passed the guards, he found himself in the camp of the enemy king. He took his log and thrashed the camp before the enemies could react." Sounds like an assasination to me.
And like stealthy thug to me. :) In any case, Machaka already has assassins aplenty. And term "assassinate" looks out of place in speech patterns of his description (somewhat stylized for tribal/Wild West story), so should be removed anyway.

Ebuart: Castle def could be dropped, but it's a small buff and he is a guardian so it's somewhat fitting.
Maybe Guardian of the Tree should be better with a Patrol Bonus?

Dwarf Elder: Again a (probably necessary) nerf from qm. They had forgebonus 20 in my version, which is probably too powerful, but forgebonus 10 would be nice.
Yes, I also think 20 is too big, but 10 OK (don't remember which bonuses varied ranks of Ulm Smiths have, but surely more) - and it looks more thematic for dwarves then research bonus...

[Aezeal]

lol such small stuff, who cares :D

[quantum_mechani]

This I understand. But still, it isn't logical. And it, for example, removes advantage Bandars have with their Markata scouts, which were not boosted, or Vans scouts. Maybe some boost would be in order, but surely not +20 to all! As for commanders - they shouldn't be so dirt cheap in any case. I can't say whether its' possible to prevent broad usage of independent commanders, nor whether is any point of trying it. Some national commanders bring clear advantages, and there are no independents with Ld 80+, for example...



As far scouts, it's not +20 to all, Illwinter already boosted default stealth to +10. I do agree commanders should not be as cheap or cheaper than comparable troops, and I've made an effort that that should not be the case (even though I suspect a great many national commanders would not get used much at 0 gold). 80+ leadership is fairly immaterial when you can simply spam more indies for the same job.



But in example I brought, satyr sneaks WERE cheaper than satyr infantry in base game! :) And you specifically mentioned that an idea was to make common human infantry cheaper... %)


I guess I don't understand what you are getting at here... human light infantry are cheaper, so are satyr infantry, so are satyr sneaks. All of them are rarely employed base game.


Do you use javelin version light cavalry much? ;) Do you use peltasts much? In independents light infantry I would agree maybe - but then, they are just a chaff anyway...

It's not the fact they use javelins that makes them so bad, it's the fact they are light cavalry with associated costs. Though I guess it might make sense to give jav cavalry more ammunition. And I do use peltasts in CB.


So, you make paths for her as costly as for a Dragon due to being fond of her?! Girls, beware! ;) Agree that she is a fair choice in basegame, but do not that she should be nerfed in CBM. The only possible reason I already listed - someone ;) was afraid that she should be used with Astral to make and use pearls in crazy amounts. I don't think actual danger is so great and she is weaker than most Titans so I'd think she should retain pathcost 50...

I don't think you can claim she is nerfed, she lost a 125 point cost, that buys a lot of new paths. Plus getting water gems. She is different from other titans and that was the intent.

I can almost swear I've seen it in CBM 1.3 few days ago!

Then I would guess you had worthy heroes enables as well.


Unthematic?? These guys are based on Homer's heroes, for all goodness! :mad: And "somewhat cheaper price" made them cost less that normal chariots! :crazy" Of course, I didn't mean making them more powerful than, say, Awakened hero or Knight Commanders, but this should be about their level...

Yes, I agree stats comparable to knight commanders seems a good idea. But I don't think they should get more expensive than 5-10 gold more than a normal chariot.


Well, they are usable, of course. On the other hand, Rakshasi cost the same iirc, while having better stats...

In the end, all CB is aiming for is for as many options as possible to be viable in some situations. Oreiads clearly are viable, and EA Arco is not terribly weak either, so I really don't see the necessity. This is totally apart from the fact I'd find more hp unthematic.


Except it would be very awkward to use them from Pegasus-back, you mean? ;) Yes, it is in base game. And no, I don't like it there, too. By the way, I don't remember offhand, but think there are no other troops with big lances in EA... ;)

Sauromatia for one. Also Oceania, and one of Tir Na Og's commanders. And of course the indies.


It would be helpful - as I pointed out, this will reduce both attack and defence penalties. And having Def 10 instead of 8 will make them quite more survivable against common troops, at least. And it's thematic as far as most Howard-based fantasy goes: there are nobody wielding 2 big axes in Howard's own stories, nor are in classical Conan movies iirc (big axes are mostly used as hand-and-a-half weapons, quite sensibly).
This does seem like a decent idea.


She is more useful? ;) Can't just look in this case now, but generally priests are more costly than commanders... About queen - yes, it's a good reason, actually - but shouldn't she get some spice for it then?

I checked and you are right base game the priestess actually is more costly. So I would not object to reducing the price, but it's a very delicate game, Sauromatia has so many military commanders its easy to leave some with 100% no niche.


Sorry, but ALL Bandar are higher class! :) And making them less able with weapons than common infantry just looks silly to me.
Even base game bandar have lower base defense than the vanara.


Then why another was needed??

There is one base game, one in CB, no real difference other than cost.


Unless I misunderstand, SS should just trigger second form in this case... Where am I wrong? What I can see are slightly buggy afflictions (especially disease). But a possible alternative would be to make them Size 1 - and this makes them more vulnerable to trample. Another thought was Animalawe - but unfortunately, cavalry isn't considered to be animals (siege penalty it would get would be appropriate - but there are a number of animal-only spells...)
With extra forms, yeah, it might be workable. I'm not sure how it would make them specifically much better against cavalry though.


Is it possible for it to require Blood level, but no slaves? Nothing in mod. manual seems to indicate otherwise.
I don't believe this is possible.


I don't see a sense of Spirit Curse costing a gem - iirc, it just curses 1 enemy, as per Curse which doesn't cost anything...

Quite true, but something exactly similar to curse seems even worse.


Wild Hunt and Erinies look to get too low level - I think that thematically they should appear later in the game..
Ideally I agree, but the effects are not very moddable, and I'm not willing to go lower on gem cost for a global, or path cost thematically, so it's the best of some poor choices.


Summon Fall Bears - Bears themselves are less useful than other seasonal spirits. Maybe they should get some boost (fear/berserk/recuperation/just higher stats)?
If I were to tweak them I'd simply knock some gems off the cost. I'd be interested if there is wide agreement on their relative weakness.



Bane for 4 gems seems too cheap
As does Lamia Queen for 15. Maybe 20?
I still rarely see these, so apparently not.


Great Eagle I see no sense at 7th level even as commander... Lower level?
That's possible... there are so many low level summons to compete with though.

Amphiptere I would prefer to be summoned in some numbers instead of being commander that can't lead anyone...

Seems more like a solitary creature in my own subjective sense of thematicness.


Zmey (Bogarus again ;)) I would make somewhat more GoRable by giving some random magic picks (maybe look into item slots, too)...
I suppose I could give some fire magic, but I really have a hard time imaging them being GoRed even with some magic and improved slots.


Summon Kappa - I would prefer to have a possibility of getting some troops of these guys. Is it possible to include 2 versions of the spell?
It would be some work, I'm not sure it's worth it.


Celestial Servant - I don't see use in him even at 1 gem apiece. Maybe he should get some non-combat bonus instead (unrest decrease, e.g.)
Not a bad idea, not sure how much difference it would really make though.

Cavern Wight at lvl 1 seems too early...
Considering he is probably still too sucky to bother summoning, I disagree.

As does Telestic Animation at lvl 2. Especially if you consider nations with reanimating priests...
The reanimation issue is quite possible... still better early than cheap, because of that.

Astral Window I think quite useful at cost 2 with no need for reduction (not that it matters much - it would eat additional gems for continuation anyway).
It's not exactly abusable cheaper, so I don't see a real problem.


Both Internal Alchemy and 1000 Year Ginseng are quite useful. I think they shouldn't get quite so cheap.
They might both have rather niche uses at higher costs, but given they are rather unique effects spells, and national, I'd like to see them as useful as possible.



Blindness seems too early at research 2.
It might be... but fire needs some help, and I have not seen it abused yet.


Hidden in Snow/Sand - while look slightly too costly in basegame, seem to get too cheap here. I'd think closer to 60, considering they produce both strong troops, thugs and added magic diversity...
Again, fun spells i have a hard time seeing as abusable, If they truly become the overshadowing use of water/earth gems I may have to reconsider.


While I welcome Legions of Steel at research 1, I always use it anyway, so maybe it's too early here.
Legions of steel tends to get much less useful late in the game, so I'd rather give it it's niche.


Why Frost Fiend is cheaper than Devil? I think it actually slightly better and harder to get at (unless you're Niefelheim).
Storm Demon I'd say is better than both and Demon Knight worse. Do you disagree?

I must admit I have not carefully analyzed between the frost fiend and devil, I just went by Illwinter's original cost levels between the two. It is notable though that there are far more fire/blood mages than water/blood.

I would say demon knight is in most situations better than the storm demons, I was very wary of overcheapening a high prot low enc troop with fear.


Hell Power seems too easy at path level 1. Yes, it's risky, but...
I'd just like to see it used, I would be very surprised if people can dominate the early game with it.

Improved Crossbreeding seems to be cheaper than just Crossbreeding. Why?
This actually a good point, I should probably just up the improved versions number of effects and leave it more expensive.

Why Demon Jester should be commander - and what a sense of it if he can't lead anyone? He surely isn't a good enough thug to summon as such...
The base demon jester is clearly useless, but most boosts are quite unthematic. You don't want swarms of them, and you don't want them excellent in combat.

Instead, they do exactly what jesters should, frustrate opponents by distracting assassins and commander targeting spells. They can also be used for simple tasks like carrying items and gems, building forts, possibly a chassis for spell casting items, etc.


Why make Mound Kings poor leaders? They aren't useful in other qualities (except using Fire Bolas, that is).
This was another attempt to encourage use of national commanders. It doesn't seem to have changed much and I'll probably undo it.


Also, I disagree with nerfing skeletons. :)
Plus, shields are "rotten" - not "rotted" (don't remember whether this was mentioned already)! :)
No, it says exactly what it means, they are rotten as shields. :D



There are several instances (at least, in separate item file) when 1 item appears several times. I don't know how the game handles this, but it can be bug-threatening. Ethereal Crossbow is one, appears as 0 and 4 levels? Demon Whip also.
Thanks for pointing that out, it does need some cleaning up.

Boots of the Behemoth look too good for lvl 0.
I have yet to see one used, base or cb, let alone to good effect.

Bear Claw Talisman appears with mainpath 6 (!). Who needs it then?

Mainpath 6 makes the main path nature.

And Summer Sword gets const. level 0 - I think it at least useful enough for Lesser Items (2).
Another one I have yet to see anyone forge, in any circumstance.

It does seem like there is quite a bit we disagree on, but that's fine. The mod is really for the sake of the community- on almost any aspect of, if you can find enough people that agree with you on a specific change I'm almost certain to implement/unimplement it.

[Aezeal]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrana
Summon Kappa - I would prefer to have a possibility of getting some troops of these guys. Is it possible to include 2 versions of the spell?

It would be some work, I'm not sure it's worth it.


--> I would imagine they would mostly be used as a commander + troops.. so why not make such a summon spell for a bit higher cost, it's not like they are that powerfull.

I still think most the rest is very small stuff and not worth the long long post QM has to make about it :D but that isn't my problem :D and I'll admit there are some points (those where QM agrees :D)

[chrispedersen]

In the end, all CB is aiming for is for as many options as possible to be viable in some situations. Oreiads clearly are viable, and EA Arco is not terribly weak either, so I really don't see the necessity. This is totally apart from the fact I'd find more hp unthematic.

Please keep lances on wind riders. Arco *almost* has a bless strategy with them. They are cool units - and rather than remove the lance, I would lower the cost.[quote]

[chrispedersen]

A few questions:

A. Can the Skratti second form bug, (no upkeep) be fixed by adding a cost to the second form? (Are you sure).

B. Water gems are undervalued in the game, usually. Can we look at adjusting the cost of water spells, or the area of effects? Even changes to cbm have largely failed to redress that, I think.

For example, by increasing the area of effect of quickness; possibly change the elixer of life to be FW

C: Blindness: I still don't cast it. MR resists makes it less interesting than flare, bolt, etc.

I like Internal alchemy etc where it is.

Cavern wight *still* is too sucky. Dark Servent for me thanks.

Don't mess with kappas please - they are a cheap and effective entry to water.

Hell Power is *AWESOME* and a lot of fun right where you've put it. I do think people will start playing with this spell.

HiSand... Not compelling reason to cast it. Better off with living statutes or other uses for your gems.

[Quitti]

-Blindlord
#selectmonster 1444
#gcost 60
#magicskill 1 8
#def 12
#end

Intended to have a8 as a recruitable commander? 10 research on sacred 60gold unit is quite... a lot. Not speaking of having access to air8 on a nation with no other access to air.

This is in cbm 1.41, don't know about 1.4.

[Zeldor]

That's a bug. I think it was meant to be the other way around, 1 lvl of magic 8 [holy]. And he got old age too.

[quantum_mechani]

Ah, dyslexia strikes again, it should have (obviously) been #magicskill 8 1. That's a pretty major bug, I suppose a 1.42 is in order.

[Turin]

Since this is effectively worthy heroes feedback, I'll reply:
Thanks. Continuing only on those where I still disagree:

Member of the third tier: black priests have 12, so I don't think 13 hp is too much for a hero unit.
But he's an Illuminati mage, not a priest! :)


But he is free! :) Banner, etc., I think would be enough. And making him able to outlive Egypt, Greece and Byzntine Empire looks, er... hilarious. Immortality is possible, but I don't think it needed - and real immortality is almost unheard of in Greece mythology.


Because he's Taoist Immortal with a title surely calling to mind some Chinese movies. You know what I'm talking about... ;)


And like stealthy thug to me. :) In any case, Machaka already has assassins aplenty. And term "assassinate" looks out of place in speech patterns of his description (somewhat stylized for tribal/Wild West story), so should be removed anyway.

Ebuart: Castle def could be dropped, but it's a small buff and he is a guardian so it's somewhat fitting.
Maybe Guardian of the Tree should be better with a Patrol Bonus?

Dwarf Elder: Again a (probably necessary) nerf from qm. They had forgebonus 20 in my version, which is probably too powerful, but forgebonus 10 would be nice.
Yes, I also think 20 is too big, but 10 OK (don't remember which bonuses varied ranks of Ulm Smiths have, but surely more) - and it looks more thematic for dwarves then research bonus...

The dreaded multiquote. I'll try to reply:

Basically most of your suggestions might be somewhat more thematical, but would result in less interesting gameplay. For example patrol is pretty useless on a high level mage like the Guardian.
For the Machaka hero: His low stealth rating already makes him more of a brute force assassin and as a simple stealth thug he would be rather worthless. Would you use him instead of a simple banelord?
Regarding teh term assassinate: You are right, it does not fit. Do assassins have their own symbol now? In dom2 there was no way to tell if a unit was capable of assassinations apart from the description text.


Anthromachus: Heroes are not free, you need to take the luck scale and more importantly you would have got a useful hero if the useless one wasn't in the game. Without immortality he would be about the same as 3 indy commanders.

Regarding Lanka's multiheroes(which I missed in my earlier post): Lanka got by far the best multiheroes, so they are more of an exception. More importantly they are still far less powerful than the most powerful EA heroes like the Niefel Hero or the Hinnom guys.

[llamabeast]

Turin: Yep, an assassin symbol was added in a recent patch.

[Aezeal]

Welcome to 2009 :D where everything has symbols :D

[llamabeast]

It's certainly a symbolic era.

[Sombre]

It was barely even 11 in the morning today and I'd already scarfed down like 4 of them.

[Aezeal]

was that before or after the alcohol and weed you promote so much :D

[archaeolept]

i'm pretty sure it's me that promotes teh ebil weed. Stop getting your degenerates mixed up !

[Wrana]

Sorry for taking so much time in reply. Headache trumps all. :hurt:

As far scouts, it's not +20 to all, Illwinter already boosted default stealth to +10. I do agree commanders should not be as cheap or cheaper than comparable troops, and I've made an effort that that should not be the case (even though I suspect a great many national commanders would not get used much at 0 gold). 80+ leadership is fairly immaterial when you can simply spam more indies for the same job.
And I think it's where it should generally be. With guys/gals with particular aptitude getting bonuses. As for not getting used at 0 gold - your suspictions only make reducing commanders' prices seem more silly - as if they are true the price reduction won't have much effect. :rolleyes: Maybe a solution lies in increasing price of indies' commanders, not reducing that of nationals... ;)


I guess I don't understand what you are getting at here... human light infantry are cheaper, so are satyr infantry, so are satyr sneaks. All of them are rarely employed base game.

Yes. But sneaks, for example, were cheaper than satir infantry in basegame, but have the same price in CBM.

It's not the fact they use javelins that makes them so bad, it's the fact they are light cavalry with associated costs. Though I guess it might make sense to give jav cavalry more ammunition. And I do use peltasts in CB.

What for (except patrolling)? And I'm really interested, too - I'm planning to play Arcos in MP one day...

I don't think you can claim she is nerfed, she lost a 125 point cost, that buys a lot of new paths. Plus getting water gems. She is different from other titans and that was the intent.
I'd say that at 80 points per path this would allow buying of exactly 1 additional path... ;) Gems are good - but thin, Mother of Rivers gets more. I assume it's possible that she works - I didn't try her. Still, seems unpromising... :(

Then I would guess you had worthy heroes enables as well.
Possibly. Still, as I try to make Marverni Pretender in 1.41, it doesn't show Horn Champion. :confused: Is it possible nation number got confused here?

Yes, I agree stats comparable to knight commanders seems a good idea. But I don't think they should get more expensive than 5-10 gold more than a normal chariot.
Thanks and maybe. I still think that if they are made adequate thugs individually, they would be worth more money.

About Oreiades - yes, they are useful so I guess they could be left as is.

Sauromatia for one. Also Oceania, and one of Tir Na Og's commanders. And of course the indies.
Indies of EA have light lances (maybe some were forgotten, though - in which case _it_ should be fixed). :) Oceania I think a special case here - as well as appearance in 1 hero (where it can be mistake, by the way). Sauromatia I concede - but you should note that there it appears only in Cataphractes - while being absent in sacreds...

I checked and you are right base game the priestess actually is more costly. So I would not object to reducing the price, but it's a very delicate game, Sauromatia has so many military commanders its easy to leave some with 100% no niche.
Thank you. And yes, certainly.

Even base game bandar have lower base defense than the vanara.
Yes. I think this was done to reflect that they are big and to an extent slowish. Still, this shouldn't be lowered too much - and I think that being better stat-wise in melee than in archery reflects Bandars training and their natural inclinations. :)

(Arco commander)
There is one base game, one in CB, no real difference other than cost.
Then I just don't understand why #newmonster command was used. :confused: Or just to make price different from indies?

(pikemen)
With extra forms, yeah, it might be workable. I'm not sure how it would make them specifically much better against cavalry though.
This way they can concentrate more attacks on each cavalryman - which would saturate their high Defense and increase Fatigue even if they won't pass armor.

I don't believe this is possible.
Thanks.

Quite true, but something exactly similar to curse seems even worse.
Maybe give it some smallish(?) area of effect? With maybe an increased research level to balance it?

(Erinies)
Ideally I agree, but the effects are not very moddable, and I'm not willing to go lower on gem cost for a global, or path cost thematically, so it's the best of some poor choices.
I don't know but it seems that you've given some monsters (undead admiral, e.g.) some magic items. Maybe it's possible to do the same with Sisters and Wild Hunter?

(Fall Bears)
If I were to tweak them I'd simply knock some gems off the cost. I'd be interested if there is wide agreement on their relative weakness.
I, at least, have heard so. Maybe someone can still say something on this?
On Banes and LAmia queens - maybe...
On Great Eagle - agree that competition in lower-level summons is big, but I just don't see much use of him as high-level commander. If he was stralthy, maybe? But this changes him too much...
Amphiptere is subjective, of course. Does it work as solitary commander (I don't remember its flavor text right now)?
On Zmey - I am not sure about usefulness :angel:, but it surely would be thematic and also would add another option which is the whole point...
Kappas - well, there are both versions already in the game. Of course, I can't positively proof both versions are necessary as summons. On the other hand, I'm not sure that commander version is more needed as a summon - after all, if you can cast it, you already have Water mages who can forge appropriate amulets to invade seas with any commander/thug...
On Celestial Servant - I don't know, either. Still, it's pretty useless as is so something should probably be done - and description suggests such a solution...
Telestic Animation I think is good enough as is - if you think it's too weak, you may add item slot or two. But it performs admirably (of course, nation with naturally strong priests and Dominion doesn't need them, but that's because of nation strength, not unit weakness).
Astral Window I agree is a minor issue - I just don't see it as the same price as Astral Projection, that's all.
Internal Alchemy and Ginseng are, I think, very useful. And I don't think they should be cast by each Tien Chi mage as a matter of course. On the other hand, it would be cool... ;)
Blindness - I think it would be very nasty on early geme SCs. On the other hand, Fire nations would have a stimulus to concentrate early research on something other than Evocation, which is nice... Don't know, still seems too early.
About Hidden - of course, they are great fun! And pretty useful, too. Still, of course you have more experience at balancing than myself - just don't say you wern't forewarned... ;)
Legions of steel - maybe, but in midgame, at least, it's very useful.

I must admit I have not carefully analyzed between the frost fiend and devil, I just went by Illwinter's original cost levels between the two. It is notable though that there are far more fire/blood mages than water/blood.
Yes, it's what I meant by last phrase - it's harder to get. You think that's enough to offset lower cost while it's (as I think and have heard) more useful?

I would say demon knight is in most situations better than the storm demons, I was very wary of overcheapening a high prot low enc troop with fear.
Yes, it's good. But all other demons have more mobility, 2 of 3 also being great missilers and Fiends of Darkness stealthy. Also, Earth/Blood is more rare in mages iirc. This one is pretty straightforward and so less useful than other demon troops - unless it's in head-on confrontation, with enough numbers. And it's harder to concentrate them than flying demons...

On Hell Power - maybe...

This actually a good point, I should probably just up the improved versions number of effects and leave it more expensive.
Thanks, something like that, yes.

The base demon jester is clearly useless, but most boosts are quite unthematic. You don't want swarms of them, and you don't want them excellent in combat.
Instead, they do exactly what jesters should, frustrate opponents by distracting assassins and commander targeting spells. They can also be used for simple tasks like carrying items and gems, building forts, possibly a chassis for spell casting items, etc.
Thanks, now I understand what you meant.

On Mound Kings - yes, please.

No, it says exactly what it means, they are rotten as shields. :D
Yes, and so should be called just that (not 'rotteD' as now)! :)

Boots of Behemoth - it's just they are niche item in any case, requiring large-size humanoid to use. But giant nations and Titan Pretenders can use them quite effectively. I don't know why they don't. ;) On the other hand, they seem to require also reinvigoration - but this also means that there's no point to make them lower research!

Mainpath 6 makes the main path nature.
Sorry, forgot syntaxis. :blush:

(Summer Sword)
Another one I have yet to see anyone forge, in any circumstance.
Maybe it would be better for it to just require 1 path? Or just generally cheaper?

It does seem like there is quite a bit we disagree on, but that's fine. The mod is really for the sake of the community- on almost any aspect of, if you can find enough people that agree with you on a specific change I'm almost certain to implement/unimplement it.
Well, that's why I'm posting it, of course. :) Generally I would like to see more thematic-based/historical decisions - and I think this quite often can be the best that we can do for balance...

[Wrana]

[Please keep lances on wind riders. Arco *almost* has a bless strategy with them. They are cool units - and rather than remove the lance, I would lower the cost.
I'd say - make lances light AND lower cost! :)
ON Blindness - as I see it, it's anti-SC/thug/mage spell. Of course, Fireball is better against troopers! Still, as an incentive for Fire-based nations to research something other than Evocation...
ON Hidden in Sand - I see it as in different niche than living statues. Besides infantry which do not suffer from 4 aps, it gives you thug(s) and magic diversity. Of course, if you have national mages covering it...

[Wrana]

The dreaded multiquote. I'll try to reply:
Basically most of your suggestions might be somewhat more thematical, but would result in less interesting gameplay. For example patrol is pretty useless on a high level mage like the Guardian.
:)
It's quite useful if you want to keep a province around your castle, for example. :D

For the Machaka hero: His low stealth rating already makes him more of a brute force assassin and as a simple stealth thug he would be rather worthless. Would you use him instead of a simple banelord?

Banelord isn't stealthy. ;) And requires research, of course...

Anthromachus: Heroes are not free, you need to take the luck scale and more importantly you would have got a useful hero if the useless one wasn't in the game. Without immortality he would be about the same as 3 indy commanders.
Do you say that luck is useless otherwise? :shock: And his description points at him useful as commander, not a thug (of course, there are not many things which make commander both useful and unique in the game right now. Still...). Of course, you can use 3 indy commanders. Or Sleeper. Or Banelord. Or GoR someone. You think this means you don't have use for a hero which has shown up?? :D

Regarding Lanka's multiheroes(which I missed in my earlier post): Lanka got by far the best multiheroes, so they are more of an exception. More importantly they are still far less powerful than the most powerful EA heroes like the Niefel Hero or the Hinnom guys.
Don't you think that Niefel is a special case? Namely, they already have something quite similar in their recruitables. Lanka, on the other hand, while being quite powerful as is, have no access to such er... nastyness. And they can use it all right! As for it being an exception - I can only say that it was what seemed the most horrible... :D

[Omnirizon]

I'd like to add that the Tomb Kind summons (690, 691, and 692) should have their Holy boosted by one each (to H2, H3, H4 respectively).

this matches what is in the manual, and as it is they cant even utilize all their nationals!

and C'tis has never won a game, so I think using that as a datapoint it's pretty clear this isn't potentially imba, and that setting their Holy so low was either a mistake made in vanilla, or uncalled for precaution.

[Endoperez]

And I think it's where it should generally be. With guys/gals with particular aptitude getting bonuses. As for not getting used at 0 gold - your suspictions only make reducing commanders' prices seem more silly - as if they are true the price reduction won't have much effect. :rolleyes: Maybe a solution lies in increasing price of indies' commanders, not reducing that of nationals... ;)

I think that used to be the case, but was removed.

Regarding Fall Bears: I have this ridiculous image on my mind, where they are a remote summon called "Drop Fall Bears" that only works in forests. :) If you can't tell, I talked with an Aussie last week.

[Trumanator]

I'd like to add that the Tomb Kind summons (690, 691, and 692) should have their Holy boosted by one each (to H2, H3, H4 respectively).

this matches what is in the manual, and as it is they cant even utilize all their nationals!

and C'tis has never won a game, so I think using that as a datapoint it's pretty clear this isn't potentially imba, and that setting their Holy so low was either a mistake made in vanilla, or uncalled for precaution.

Yeah, I really want to utilize those summons, but paying 30 Death Gems for a lizard king who can reanimate is ridiculous. :eek:

[hunt11]

Overall the changes to Ashod are good, the only things that seems odd is the Banquet of the Dead spell, because with the current changes you need to forge magic items for your Zamzummite's to actually cast the spell, and since you lose the mage you have just lost ten death gems.

[Omnirizon]

I'd like to add that the Tomb Kind summons (690, 691, and 692) should have their Holy boosted by one each (to H2, H3, H4 respectively).

this matches what is in the manual, and as it is they cant even utilize all their nationals!

and C'tis has never won a game, so I think using that as a datapoint it's pretty clear this isn't potentially imba, and that setting their Holy so low was either a mistake made in vanilla, or uncalled for precaution.

Yeah, I really want to utilize those summons, but paying 30 Death Gems for a lizard king who can reanimate is ridiculous. :eek:

actually it's about 20 gems for kings, half that for consorts, and the difference between an H4 reanimation and H2 is less than 50%, making H2 summons more effficient for reanim factories. the only reason to go with Kings is for the H4 nationals, which with the way it is they can't even cast. that's why the proposed change.

hell, even the descrip for this particular spell reads "when a tomb king..." making it obvious that they are supposed to be H4 and were meant for the casting of this spell (the manual says so too).

[Trumanator]

My bad, going from memory. Still though, everyone talks about how precious D gems are, and those summons are EXPENSIVE!

[Gregstrom]

Well, the mound fiend (generic undead priest, albeit with Death magic too) costs 28 gems, so 20 gems for a H4 undead doesn't seem too bad.

[Trumanator]

Who uses mound fiends?

[chrispedersen]

Everyone that needs to bootstrap death.

D2 + staff = d3
d3+staff = skull
d4 + relic = dx.

[Trumanator]

My bad, I was confusing them with those 1D undead mages.

[Redeyes]

Which are used by people who have only got minor access to Death (a rainbow pretender perhaps?), but want more mages to use Dark knowledge.

[Trumanator]

One thing I'm curious about is why it takes a tomb king to reanimate the tomb wyrms? Sure they're sacred, but they don't have anything else going for them, and its not like you're paying upkeep or anything like that.

OTOH, those tomb chariots look nasty. 0 enc tramplers sound pretty good, and you can get them with your starting tomb priest!

[Omnirizon]

trumanator:

yes, because of tomb chariots, no one really gives a damn about the stupid wyrms, they just suck. they don't really benefit from any bless. they suck.

tomb chariots do rule the day though.

i actually like, early on, reanimating tons of soulless and paring them with poison slingers, and also sending out the undead priests with lots of slingers and the next to cheapest infantry. when lots of infantry die, spend a turn reanimating soulless, you get lots of those infantry back as undead, with their equipment, more hp, and immune to poison...

[Zeldor]

LA C'tis should get some buff to their summons. They are a nation with nice theme, but hard to really use it. They should get some more D income or cheaper summons, so they can really amass their nationals.

[Trumanator]

I have yet to get far enough to summon them, but at least LA C'tis can cast Summon Scorpion Man.