Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41

[quantum_mechani]

This more or less simply version 1.4 with some minor bug and typo fixes. Feel free to use either 1.4 thread for suggestion/comment purposes.

Edit: zip replaced by llamabeast on 29th March with permission from QM, making changes to
(a) Make compatible with llamaserver, and
(b) Fix blindlord bug

[quantum_mechani]

Split version.

[Horst F. JENS]

there is no bigger joy on dom3 than playing with a fresh, new, shiny Conceptual Balance Mod :)

[Tifone]

tnxqm!!

[LumenPlacidum]

What's the difference between the normal one and the split one?

[Redeyes]

What's the difference between the normal one and the split one?
The split version is if you only want certain elements of the CBM choosing from modified pretenders, items, spells, nations or scales

[chrispedersen]

QM -- as I recall, there were some nations that were not yet kitted out with full hero compliment.

Not that I want to give ashdod, and company a boost.
But do you know the status of nations missing?

[Redeyes]

Ashdod has three "Son of Anak" heroes, the three ancestors to the Ahiman, Sheshai & Talmai clans.
Hinnom has 6 "Son of [Grigori]" Nephilim multiheroes who have 4 in a main path and 3 in blood, besides otherwise being SC material.

I don't know about Gath, don't they have any heroes?

[llamabeast]

The LlamaServer isn't able to start games with CBM 1.41, as given. It turns out that the problem is with the spells Bind Spine Devils and Bind Serpent Fiends. It throws the error:

Loading spells: CBcomplete_1.41.dm
name2spell Bind Spine Devil
N�got gick fel!
name2spell: no such spell!!
N�got gick fel!
name2spell: no such spell!!

I think the reason is that the spells change their own name. Maybe for some reason it reads the mod twice, and the second time can't cope. Anyway, I've fixed it. Instead of changing the spells, it seems you have to copy them, change the copies and simply make the original spells unresearchable. I've changed the copy on the LlamaServer and I think perhaps it won't matter for client machines, but if you could use the modified code in the next version that'd be great.

Here's my fixed version:

--
#newspell
#copyspell "Bind Spine Devil"
#name "Bind Spine Devils"
#fatiguecost 800
#nreff 3
#descr "The caster sacrifices several blood slaves to contact and bind three Spine Devils. Spine Devils are spine covered, wingless demons that fight with t\
wo venomous claws. The spines covering their bodies are poisonous and anyone attacking them with short weapons may get poisoned."
#end

#selectspell "Bind Spine Devil"
#school -1
#end

#newspell
#copyspell "Bind Serpent Fiend"
#name "Bind Serpent Fiends"
#nreff 2
#descr "The caster sacrifices several blood slaves to contact and bind two Serpent Fiends. Serpent Fiends are bat-winged, serpent-like demons summoned from \
the Abyss. Their bite is highly venomous."
#end

#selectspell "Bind Serpent Fiend"
#school -1
#end
--

Also, what were your thoughts on including Endo's Mark of the Champion mod in the next version of CBM?

Thanks for all your work QM!

[Juffos]

Late Age Agartha has Blindlords with Air 8.

Dunno whether this is intentional or not.

[Zeldor]

They shouldn't have old age either. And I am sure air 8 is not intentional :) I think that QM wanted to give them Holy 1 so they could effectively lead blindfighters.

[llamabeast]

Air 8 seems potentially unbalancing. :)

[Sombre]

Obviously it's meant to be Air 8. Agartha needs the boost and it makes perfect thematic sense.

What are you people stupid?

[Aezeal]

I somewhat agree with Sombre, air 3 or 8 hardly makes a difference anyway and it's CLEAR they deserve at least air 3.. so why not go all the way then.. it's different, no other nation has it yet (while air 3 is seen way to often)

it's got my OK.

LLama balance is relative anyway :D

[llamabeast]

You're right, I'm humbled.

[Dedas]

For 60 gold air 8 is perfectly reasonable... :)

[chrispedersen]

Can the skratti no upkeep bug be fixed by adding a cost to the second form?

If not, can we perhaps eliminate one of the forms, or combine the forms into one - perhaps the human form with full paths, and a stealthy werewolf form with reduced paths.

[llamabeast]

Yes Chris, it can.

[Incabulos]

two forms would be much more useful, that third form with the way shapechanging works is a real pain.

[Omnirizon]

I'm just glad confusion was nerfed. that spell allowed about 10 cheap-*** air mages to slaughter an army of 400 dai bakemono.

it still looks a bit scary th0ough, but the A2 will at least mean that the cheapest mages can't use its overwhelming potential

[Redeyes]

It's A3 in Vanilla, I had ultimately call A2 a buff still ;)
Summon Storm Power is just A1, so it will still be available for all air mages to cast with some preparation.

[Dedas]

I was playing MA Ulm (as always) with CBM and suddenly I notice that I only build pikeneers. Why? With the CBM change to the pikeneer, it makes all the other infantry practically meaningless. Let's take a look:

Before CBM:
Standard pikeneer
Pike
Damage 5
Attack 1
Defense -1
Length 6

Cost 10 gold 23 resources. Has morale 11 when all the others in the same class have 10.

For comparison here is the maul guy.
Maul
Damage 9
Attack 0
Defense -1
Length 3

Cost 10 gold 22 resources. Morale 10. Other stats identical.
The Battle axe guy is very similar except that it costs 24 resources and has one more defense due to battle axe.

CBM:
Standard Pikeneer
Pike
Damage 6
Attack 2
Defense -1
Length 6

Everything else is the same. No change to the other soldiers in the same class.

So what is my point? Well, even before CBM the pikeener was a very good unit compared to the others for the price. A length 6 weapon means that his attacks will never be repelled, and that he can repel everything except length 6 weapons which are rare. Higher morale speaks for itself. The next lowest resource cost is another plus. He is just awesome on all points except one: damage. If you want to do more damage you buy a battle axe soldier for instance, they cost one more resource, has lower morale, wields a length 3 weapon (meaning that they can get repelled against the common spear). They also have one lower attack. The only plus with the battle axe is that it makes 4 more damage than the pike. It is okay, on many occasions you need that extra damage and hopefully you go up against short swords or broad swords.
With CBM however, the difference in damage between the two is suddenly only 3 and that means that you will hesitate a little before buying anything other than the pike. But that is not all, the pikeneers now has an attack rating of 12 in comparison to the battle axe soldiers 10. So why on earth do you want to buy the much more inferior and more expensive battle axe soldier when you can get the pikeneer?

In my eyes the pikeneer was fine before, it had its niche and you used it a lot because of its many strong points. Now it is the only sensible unit to buy. It was a very thin line, and as the experienced MA Ulm player that I dub myself, I now see that line broken. No biggie but I just love balance and CBM. Yes, I have converted. :)

Just my 2 cents. :)

[Sombre]

I was playing MA Ulm (as always) with CBM and suddenly I notice that I only build pikeneers. Why? With the CBM change to the pikeneer, it makes all the other infantry practically meaningless. Let's take a look:

Before CBM:
Standard pikeneer
Pike
Damage 5
Attack 1
Defense -1
Length 6

Cost 10 gold 23 resources. Has morale 11 when all the others in the same class have 10.

For comparison here is the maul guy.
Maul
Damage 9
Attack 0
Defense -1
Length 3

Cost 10 gold 22 resources. Morale 10. Other stats identical.
The Battle axe guy is very similar except that it costs 24 resources and has one more defense due to battle axe.

CBM:
Standard Pikeneer
Pike
Damage 6
Attack 2
Defense -1
Length 6

Everything else is the same. No change to the other soldiers in the same class.

So what is my point? Well, even before CBM the pikeener was a very good unit compared to the others for the price. A length 6 weapon means that his attacks will never be repelled, and that he can repel everything except length 6 weapons which are rare. Higher morale speaks for itself. The next lowest resource cost is another plus. He is just awesome on all points except one: damage. If you want to do more damage you buy a battle axe soldier for instance, they cost one more resource, has lower morale, wields a length 3 weapon (meaning that they can get repelled against the common spear). They also have one lower attack. The only plus with the battle axe is that it makes 4 more damage than the pike. It is okay, on many occasions you need that extra damage and hopefully you go up against short swords or broad swords.
With CBM however, the difference in damage is only 3 and that means that you hesitate a little before buying. But that is not all, the pikeneers now has an attack rating of 12 in comparison to the battle axe soldiers 10. So why on earth do you want to buy the much more inferior and more expensive battle axe soldier when you can get the pikeneer?

In my eyes the pikeneer was fine before, it had its niche and you used it a lot because of its many strong points. Now it is the only sensible unit to buy.

Just my 2 cents. :)

I was a strong advocate of improving the pike. The issue is that pike guys never actually made good chaff, since they lack spears and their repel rarely meant anything. They also sucked vs cavalry, which never made much sense to me. So I like that the weapon has been improved. I think the problem you've spotted is particular to MA Ulm, because of their wide variety of stuff that's hard to justify building, like the maul infantry. The thing is the job of the guys with two handed weapons is to do damage - if you want them for any other purpose, get the shielded guys instead, because they're better at staying alive and better vs lower prot enemies. So where you don't want to build shielded guys, when you're against high prot dudes, that's where the pike is the worst of the three.

[Dedas]

Yes, that is all sound if it was true that repel sucks. It doesn't. What one first must understand is that repel works both ways. You can repel your enemy when you are attacked and you can get repelled by your enemy when you do. If you wield a pike you will never get repelled (as there isn't any length 7 weapons) and you almost always get to repel. With battle axe (or hammer or morningstar for that matther) you will be at the other end; you will almost always get repelled and almost never get to do repel yourself. You just have to play a little to see the difference.

That is why the pikeneer is a little better unit than it seems, and why the others actually are a little worse than they seem. And that is also the reason why the pikeneer shouldn't get an additional boost.

[Dedas]

As a small demonstration I have attached two files showing pikes and axes against exactly the same enemy units. I ran the test battles 10 times each with very little variation in the results.

Please pay notice to the repel animation on both sides (for pikes the pikeneers and for the battle axes the spears) to see the difference. Attack 12 and morale 11 plus a length 6 weapon is speaks clearly.

CBM version is 1.4

[Endoperez]

I've also noticed the problem with MA Ulm, and made a mod to change it. It started by changing resource costs and damage s that MA Ulm's recruitables are different, but it grew "a little" to change most mundane weapons...

If you're interested, I can upload the mod somewhere. I thought I already uploaded it into the giants BC thread, but I couldn't find it again.

[Dedas]

You are most welcome to upload it, Endo! :)

Thank you for taking the time make a mod trying to address these issues. It will be very interesting to look at your suggestions.

[Sombre]

As a small demonstration I have attached two files showing pikes and axes against exactly the same enemy units. I ran the test battles 10 times each with very little variation in the results.

Please pay notice to the repel animation on both sides (for pikes the pikeneers and for the battle axes the spears) to see the difference. Attack 12 and morale 11 plus a length 6 weapon is speaks clearly.

I don't see the point of this test. All it demonstrates is that repel works against things with low morale, which I don't believe was denied. The issue with repel has always been that with a small boost in morale it is easy to ignore. Having length 6 weapons and good attack is nice and all, but since the units with pikes are basically chaff and repel doesn't work against things designed to kill chaff (or units you'd expect to actually do damage, period), it's not too strong.

Do pikemen or axemen do better against elite heavy infantry (let's say, MA Ermor guys)? And why compare pikemen only with the other non shielded troops?

[Dedas]

What I want to show is not that the pikeneers can repel but that they can't be repelled. That gives them an edge over axe men (length 3). More so to hammer men (length 1) who will often get repelled, even by broad swords (length 2) because of their rather low morale (10-11) and low defense (10-11). Battle axe guys are easier to repel (defense (6-7) but you need a spear (length 4 to 3).

Pikeneers can ignore all this that would have been a problem (due to low defense) without their pike (length) and can just strike unhindered. And they are greatly helped by the extra attack bonus from the CBM pike (from 11 to 12).

[chrispedersen]

I hear ya on this Dedas, but in a game of rocks scissors paper the answer is archers.

I think perhaps the answer is to bump the pikes cost up by 1-2, to correspond to the increased attack, or to lower the other units an equivalent amount.

[JimMorrison]

I'm just glad confusion was nerfed. that spell allowed about 10 cheap-*** air mages to slaughter an army of 400 dai bakemono.

it still looks a bit scary th0ough, but the A2 will at least mean that the cheapest mages can't use its overwhelming potential

I think it still needs #ofeffects reduced though. I had to quit an SP game because just entering the mid-game, I was attacked by Vanheim, and I was summarily slaughtering them as I expected to with my strong elite troops - but really even 4-5 Vanjarls spamming Confusion (the AI seems to know?!) could destroy my armies.

The problem isn't even losing battles, so much. But every battle that I won, I would suffer 20-30% attrition, almost entirely from my own men killing eachother. With my formations broken up, the mages would surive EVERY combat, to come back to haunt me again. Against humans it would be horrifying, as they would come with large numbers of cheap-ish mages, supported by strong troops. The AI just used it to win due to its relentless spam attacks of small forces. Thing is it was forces I should lose at most 1-2 men against (I had decent mage support, but no Antimagic), and yet I was losing 20+ in many combats.

Sorry for being so long winded. I just think Confusion would still be "useful" and attractive at #ofeffects 2+ rather than 4+.

[Dedas]

I hear ya on this Dedas, but in a game of rocks scissors paper the answer is archers.

I think perhaps the answer is to bump the pikes cost up by 1-2, to correspond to the increased attack, or to lower the other units an equivalent amount.

Yes, I wish it was that simple. The thing is that CBM changes the whole weapon type 'pike'. That means other units in other nations as well (not many but a few). And if you change one thing you usually have to change another to keep balance. My point is that it is simpler to just revert back to the standard pike as it actually worked as it was intended. This whole "issue" and the fix was created by people wanting the pike to work against cavalry charges (just like in real life). The thing is that the current combat mechanics can't simulate that without causing problems in other parts, like the pikes balance against other weapons.

[Sombre]

What I want to show is not that the pikeneers can repel but that they can't be repelled. That gives them an edge over axe men (length 3). More so to hammer men (length 1) who will often get repelled, even by broad swords (length 2) because of their rather low morale (10-11) and low defense (10-11). Battle axe guys are easier to repel (defense (6-7) but you need a spear (length 4 to 3).

Pikeneers can ignore all this that would have been a problem (due to low defense) without their pike (length) and can just strike unhindered. And they are greatly helped by the extra attack bonus from the CBM pike (from 11 to 12).

To avoid any of your troops being repelled all you need to do is cast sermon of courage on them anyway imo. An extra 2 morale makes a big difference.

I think the issue is more that the other Ulmish infantry suck at fighting (though they make passable chaff) than pikes being too good. I think pikes should be something special anyway, they certainly are historically and it isn't like pikes and long spears are common weapons in dom3. They also exist in the age of crossbows largely, where they get blasted really easily, like all 2 handers.

Regardless pikes aren't broken or anything, but maybe they are better than the other MA Ulm infantry choices. Those could do with a boost anyway imo.

[Sombre]

My point is that it is simpler to just revert back to the standard pike as it actually worked as it was intended. This whole "issue" and the fix was created by people wanting the pike to work against cavalry charges (just like in real life). The thing is that the current combat mechanics can't simulate that without causing problems in other parts, like the pikes balance against other weapons.

I don't think the original pikes are worth buying at all. They aren't just competing with MA Ulm two handed weapon guys and hammer users (the hammer is a truly awful weapon), they're competing with other infantry and have high resource cost, no shield, mapmove 1 and so on.

Could you do a quick test for me? (I can't run dom3 right now) Set a pike unit to morale 30, att 30, def 1. Set an enemy unit to morale 2, att 30, prot and hp as high as possible. I just want to confirm 100% that the repel morale check comes before the prot check. I believe it does, but it would be nice to be certain. By using those settings you would expect the attacking unit to be repelled every time. If he isn't repelled then it's down to his prot.

[Dedas]

Yes, I'm all with you on that Sombre. My point main point is that the pikeneer can't be repelled by any unit when he attacks them. That gives him a much greater advantage than is commonly perceived. I have played and tested a lot and with the increased damage of the pike it is no point of buying a guy that does three more damage but have to do a repel test when he attacks someone with a longer weapon than him(spear is 4 and is very common). Just for fun look at the hammer guy, he gets to do a repel check against almost every other weapon in the game making him truly bad on the attack (and defense as he blows at repelling back as well).

[Sombre]

Yeah the hammer troops aren't for doing damage though (which is good since they can't).

[Dedas]

Exactly!

And if you want to do some damage and still have a shield the morningstar troops are standing ready. You lose 1 damage and 1 defence but gain 1 attack (+2 extra against shields) and 1 length. And although the encumbrance is horrible on both of them they can soak a lot of mundane missile fire away from your damage dealers. The pikeneers are better at keeping the enemy away for a sustained time in close combat, while battle axes or mauls can flank and the fatigued (thus low defence) enemy.
Flails on the other hand are great when attacking high defence low protection troops; with the attack bonus and double attacks they have a good chance of hitting. Length isn't bad either at 3, and according to the manual it gets -2 harder to repel after each additional attack. They also get +2 against shields. Perfect for those high defence, low prot, shield wielding Vans. If they have broad swords you can even repel against them.
Everyone has their niche. That is why I think it is a shame that I now only use pikeneers - they have gotten too good. Damage the same as morningstars, better attack bonus, longer weapon, cheaper and so on. Not fun. :)

[Reay]

I just played against LA Ulm in MP and I have to say Dedas is right in saying Pikeneers are a good unit. They now seem overpowered somewhat for their cost compared to the other infantry units of Ulm.

By the way the help text of CBM says that Sanguine Heritage now costs 33 slaves but still appears to be 44 slaves in game.

[Redeyes]

Yeah, those Pikeneers almost took your Jaguar warriors on a one on one basis.

In the labbing I did, their only weakness lay in their low Morale.
Interspersed with ghoul guardians, that issue is mitigated.

[chrispedersen]

I just played against LA Ulm in MP and I have to say Dedas is right in saying Pikeneers are a good unit. They now seem overpowered somewhat for their cost compared to the other infantry units of Ulm.

By the way the help text of CBM says that Sanguine Heritage now costs 33 slaves but still appears to be 44 slaves in game.

You are correct it still is 44.

[Dragar]

Has something happened to Summon Spectral Infantry? Just tried to cast in an MP game and it cost 5 gems, which is the vanilla rather than CBM value??

[archaeolept]

reposted from gamethread:

i just ran another test game, this time using the exact same mods this game is using...

1.3: 5 gems for 5
1.4 1 gem for 5
1.41b 5 gems for 5

so 1.41b, perhaps also 1.41 which i didn't test, undid the 1.4 change to the price

[Dragar]

1.41b isn't an official CBM, it was Zeldor's fix of the Air 8 business

Edit: not sure if its 1.41 or 1.41b where the bug resides

[llamabeast]

Both the llamaserver and the llamabeast are in some state of confusion over what is the current version of CBM. This is partly because chrispedersen uploaded a couple of his own versions, but also partly cos I think a 1.41b was mentioned but I can't find it. QM, could you clarify please? Thanks.

[Dedas]

Where is QM?

[Endoperez]

I think Quantum is still a regular in the irc channel, if you feel like asking important questions.

Dedas, check out the Charge! thread for the mod I mentioned.

[archaeolept]

1.41b is being used in the llamaserver game "madness". as far as i know, no chrispedersen version is being used.

official 1.41 is bugged, so not used. I think the current valid version is 1.4.

[quantum_mechani]

Both the llamaserver and the llamabeast are in some state of confusion over what is the current version of CBM. This is partly because chrispedersen uploaded a couple of his own versions, but also partly cos I think a 1.41b was mentioned but I can't find it. QM, could you clarify please? Thanks.1.41 is the official current version, however I recommend any games with LA Agartha use 1.4 instead.

[Ornedan]

Bug & typo fixes collected from the b & c versions posted elsewhere. Also, it seems the Bogarus horsemen didn't have the resource cost reductions mentioned in the readme. They were using #rec command (which I didn't see used anywhere else. Does it actually do anything?) with values corresponding to what the readme said their new base resource costs should be. So replaced #rec with #rcost.

--- CBcomplete_1.41.dm 2009-01-19 22:19:40.000000000 +0200
+++ CBcomplete_1.41'.dm 2009-02-04 23:22:02.000000000 +0200
@@ -1953,6 +1953,7 @@
#gcost 30
#end

+-Warmaster
#selectmonster 118
#def 12
#att 15
@@ -4163,7 +4164,7 @@
#descr "With the barbarian invasion came new leadership and the Imperial Family was replaced by Barbarian Kings. The Khans come from the steppes and are skilled horsemen and warriors. They often fight side by side with their soldiers and their bravery and skill inspires even the most cowardly barbarian into deeds of heroic bravery, rather than face the wrath of a khan."
#end

---Agatha LE
+--Agartha LE


#selectnation 57
@@ -4194,7 +4195,7 @@
#castledef 4
#end

--Blindfighter-
+-Blindfighter
#selectmonster 1437
#gcost 18
#att 15
@@ -4223,7 +4224,7 @@
-Blindlord
#selectmonster 1444
#gcost 60
-#magicskill 1 8
+#magicskill 8 1
#def 12
#end

@@ -4676,7 +4677,7 @@

--styag
#selectmonster 1924
-#rec 2
+#rcost 2
#weapon 357
#weapon 264
#weapon 56
@@ -4686,7 +4687,7 @@

--malaia druzhina
#selectmonster 1923
-#rec 3
+#rcost 3
#gcost 45
#weapon 8
#weapon 4
@@ -4695,7 +4696,7 @@

--grid druzhina
#selectmonster 1922
-#rec 2
+#rcost 2
#prec 10
#gcost 25
#weapon 8



And the LA C'tis summon holy changes from c:

--- CBcomplete_1.41.dm 2009-01-19 22:19:40.000000000 +0200
+++ CBcomplete_1.41'.dm 2009-02-04 23:15:52.000000000 +0200
@@ -9785,6 +9786,21 @@

----Summons

+--Grave Consort
+#selectmonster 690
+#magicskill 8 2
+#end
+
+--Tomb Priest
+#selectmonster 691
+#magicskill 8 3
+#end
+
+--Tomb King
+#selectmonster 692
+#magicskill 8 4
+#end
+
--Black Servant
#selectmonster 434
#end

[Zeldor]

I made 1.41b with just blindlord bug, to get Madness started. I added just b, as QM is the one to increase version numbers.

I think that best thing would be the release of 1.5, so all that numbering can be clarified.

[Jazzepi]

I made 1.41b with just blindlord bug, to get Madness started. I added just b, as QM is the one to increase version numbers.

I think that best thing would be the release of 1.5, so all that numbering can be clarified.

It would probably be best if people other than QM did not release versions of CBM using the numbering system.

Just name it something weird like, GAME_NAME-CBM 1.4

Jazzepi

[llamabeast]

I'm with Jazzepi there. It's all been very confusing.

[chrispedersen]

But llama, I called it cCBM1.44. Your eyes are as bad as mine =P.

[vfb]

Has anyone suggested a nerf to the lovable Frost Brand? I think bumping it to 10W would help increase thug/SC weapon diversity.

[Sombre]

But llama, I called it cCBM1.44. Your eyes are as bad as mine =P.

God that's even more confusing.

[Aezeal]

he's stuttering

[Tifone]

I'm with vfb on the Frost Brand. It's very underpriced imho.

[llamabeast]

If QM changes it though, countless frost brand fanboys will lynch him. It's a hard job being the master of CBM.

[Reay]

My Mictlan Priests keep fatiguing themselves out by casting Sabbath Slave and Master. They don't cost a blood slave to cast any more so that is why the AI is prioritising them too highly. I think it would be better if these two spells were not cast by the AI.

Frost Brand is under priced, but probably should not be the same cost as a Fire Brand. Many undead have cold resistance whereas fire resistance is less common.

[Redeyes]

I would rather see all brands moved to construction 6.
They are pretty much the pen-ultimate weaponry, why shouldn't they be at the next to highest tier?

Frost Brand is under priced, but probably should not be the same cost as a Fire Brand. Many undead have cold resistance whereas fire resistance is less common.
Reply With QuoteI don't think Fire/cold damage is overly important as a divisor, they'll each be better in different in situations (vs Undead/Abysia) rather consider that Fire Brand also has armor piercing.

[vfb]

If QM changes it though, countless frost brand fanboys will lynch him. It's a hard job being the master of CBM.

1) Frost Brands are Expensive

Bzzt! Wrong. Incorrect. There is nothing special about them.

2) But what about Crossbows?

Crossbows pwn Frost Brands! For example, see your mum. LOL


I have many more points.

[Sombre]

I concur heartily.

[Burnsaber]

Me too. His logic and argumentation is irrefutable.

[Kuritza]

Methinks, Control spell that doesnt require an astral pearl is OP. Ungodly powerful. Compare it to the Mind Control - it requires no pearls as well, but its S4.
Also, it sort of screws constructs too much; they are supposed to be immune to such tricks unless you script your mages for control and give them pearls; in CBM they are, in fact, MORE vulnerable to mind controlling than anybody.
P.S.
Control is also down to S1 from S3 in CBM, so ANY astral mage can spam it. That's just crazy.

[JimMorrison]

Methinks, Control spell that doesnt require an astral pearl is OP. Ungodly powerful. Compare it to the Mind Control - it requires no pearls as well, but its S4.
Also, it sort of screws constructs too much; they are supposed to be immune to such tricks unless you script your mages for control and give them pearls; in CBM they are, in fact, MORE vulnerable to mind controlling than anybody.
P.S.
Control is also down to S1 from S3 in CBM, so ANY astral mage can spam it. That's just crazy.

Personally, I always thought that Control should be harder to cast (ie- S5) and cost no Pearls. If it's to be brought down in power, it should retain the gem cost, for a semblance of parity of effort/effect.

I would have to agree with Kuritza, that there are 2 problems with low pathreq, and no gem cost, the first being that lower MR Magic Beings will become completely useless, as they will get grabbed immediately (far greater problem than with mundanes which are everywhere, so you have to use Enslave more tactically), but also even if the Magic Beings have very high MR, as many do, the AI may sit and uselessly spam Control when perhaps there is something that might be more effective, like Stellar Cascades.

That reminds me, maybe the Fatigue Damage on Stellar Cascades ought to be reduced slightly? Not a lot, mind you, but with a certain critical mass of mages, it becomes the most brutally effective spell against anything with a decent MR. If it is not quite as powerful, more thought will be required as to whether or not to script it (or just reduce the AOE or Precision? lowering Precision may be the best answer, it should be hard to focus the light of distant stars, no? ;) a reduction in Precision would make it less of an "I win" against low number high power opponents, without much eroding the usefulness against massed troops).

[vfb]

I was going to post that I think Vampire Lords are too cheap in CBM, @44 slaves, but I see it's now @55 slaves in 1.4.

So, thanks for already including this in the update! :)

Now how about those Frost Brands, huh?

[Reay]

Does CBM alter blood slave production in any way?
I have B1+SDR/B2 mages getting 16 slaves a turn sometimes. I thought you got (1d6+Blood level) slaves when you blood hunt?

[JimMorrison]

Does CBM alter blood slave production in any way?
I have B1+SDR/B2 mages getting 16 slaves a turn sometimes. I thought you got (1d6+Blood level) slaves when you blood hunt?

No, you get (Blood Level + drn) in slaves. Bear in mind, the DRN is 2d6 -repeating on 6s-, while the drn is 1d6 repeating.

[DonCorazon]

Now how about those Frost Brands, huh?

Frost Brand fanboy here - QM, back away from the keyboard! What else am I gonna do with my water gems - start clamming? Never! :)

[chrispedersen]

CBM gives douse bonuses to bloodhenge druids.
My version tones it down a bit, but gives a bonus to the skratti pretender.

[rdonj]

In the chronicles game I noticed that the mercenary cavalry (hector's heavy cavalry? I think that was the group) had the normal hoof attack instead of warhorse hoof. Bug or WAD?

[lch]

If it's any help, the units used in Hector's Heavy Horsemen have the ID 292, and he has ID number 293.

[Wrana]

Another small thing: Evening Star I think has too low research. I'd say it should be on a level with main Brands (4), not 2 which allows very easy construction of pretty brutal thugs very early...

[Fantomen]

Would it be possible to make the spell "enliven statues" summon attentive statues for MA agartha instead of the normal ones? (bit like iron pigs for marverni) Or to add a similar spell that does? That would be a thematic way to make the nation a little more powerful to balance the nerfs of Umbrals and Risen Oracle (which I suppose are aimed primarily at LA agartha)

I would also give their giant sacreds long spears, that would make them a bit less crappy.

[vfb]

You have a point that the servant of the oracles doesn't have a lot of use as is... a d/e random might even things out.

As for bone grinding, I must admit I hadn't anticipated that being a problem. One doesn't usually have that high of death mages lying about without a script, and I would have thought the very high fatigue would discourage AI use in any case. If it's a common problem though, I could certainly change it back.

I'm fighting Executor's leftover AI Sauromatian army in turn 80 of World in Crisis, and an AI D7 witch king killed himself and his vampire army with a couple Bone Grindings (he wasn't carrying gems). He probably would have been much better off spamming Disintegrate. The AI really likes Bone Grinding if it can manage to cast it, even when it's up against an army of high-HP thugs and SCs where no-one has MR less than 18.

[Burnsaber]

It's pretty easy to mod a spell so that the AI casts it only when scripted. Make Bone Grinding a personal buff spell that gives haste or something other insignificant and the #nextspell the real effect.

[Burnsaber]

It's pretty easy to mod a spell so that the AI casts it only when scripted. Make Bone Grinding a personal buff spell that gives haste or something other insignificant and the #nextspell the real effect.

I'm sorry for double posting but I need to clarify this statement (Damn I hate the new editing system).

There is a bug in this system, since if the caster already has Haste, he won't cast the spell even if scripted (since the AI thinks that the hacked spell is just a personal buff to give haste). So that means that you can't cast this spell twice in row, since the first casting gives you haste. There are workarounds over this:

1) Make the haste effect mr easily negates. Since most high level casters have ridicilous mr, they will basically never actually get it, but there would still be a problem of some friendly casted "Haste" on the caster (unlikely, but within the realm of possibility)

2) Make it mr negates easily and make it give Twist Fate + haste. Now even if the buff affects the caster, the bone grinding will likely wipe out the "Twist Fate" effect and the only way the AI won't cast it is if the caster has Haste and Twist Fate both active. I really can't see that happening by accident.

I have the solution 1 working on a single spell in my Alugra mod on a spell that heals all fatigue but blinks the caster (I really didn't AI casting such a risky spell unscripted). QM, if you're intrested I could start testing the solution 2 on bone grinding.

[vfb]

Why was Bone Grinding dropped from 100 fatigue to 99 anyway? It wasn't like no-one was casting it in Vanilla, at least in the games I played.

[Poopsi]

is the version in the first post the latest of this?

[Jazzepi]

You have a point that the servant of the oracles doesn't have a lot of use as is... a d/e random might even things out.

As for bone grinding, I must admit I hadn't anticipated that being a problem. One doesn't usually have that high of death mages lying about without a script, and I would have thought the very high fatigue would discourage AI use in any case. If it's a common problem though, I could certainly change it back.

I'm fighting Executor's leftover AI Sauromatian army in turn 80 of World in Crisis, and an AI D7 witch king killed himself and his vampire army with a couple Bone Grindings (he wasn't carrying gems). He probably would have been much better off spamming Disintegrate. The AI really likes Bone Grinding if it can manage to cast it, even when it's up against an army of high-HP thugs and SCs where no-one has MR less than 18.

I can confirm this is true. I played in a game with Ermor, and I had something like 4 thousand troops on the screen, and the r'yleh player had it setup to cast the undead enslave spell. The caster who had been buffed by the communion just cast bone grinding multiple times instead :P

Jazzepi

[llamabeast]

Poopsi - I think so, yes. The versions labelled 1.41b, 1.41c etc are in fact confusingly by chrispedersen. 1.41 is QM's latest version.

[Kuritza]

So, is there any chance control will revert back to normal in CB?

Amongst other things, ape nations are simply castrated by a 0-gems, 1S Control spell; take monkey summons away from them and they are left with low-quality troops and mighty monkey PD (tm).

[Kuritza]

Just realized Control is now a 0-pearls, S3 spell.

Still sucks to be magic beings reliant or use golems against a free Control. Now there will be less stupid deaths amongst raiding Golems encountering a lizard Shaman, but still its not hard to get an S3 communion with just S1 mages and charm all magic being thugs and SCs on the battlefield.

[Sombre]

Isn't control mr negates? I would think a golem would be pretty damn hard to control

[Jazzepi]

If your opponent has good astral, I think magic duel is a much worse plight for you then control spam for the golems.

There's no resistance roll for duel.

Jazzepi

[Amhazair]

You have a point that the servant of the oracles doesn't have a lot of use as is... a d/e random might even things out.

As for bone grinding, I must admit I hadn't anticipated that being a problem. One doesn't usually have that high of death mages lying about without a script, and I would have thought the very high fatigue would discourage AI use in any case. If it's a common problem though, I could certainly change it back.

I'm fighting Executor's leftover AI Sauromatian army in turn 80 of World in Crisis, and an AI D7 witch king killed himself and his vampire army with a couple Bone Grindings (he wasn't carrying gems). He probably would have been much better off spamming Disintegrate. The AI really likes Bone Grinding if it can manage to cast it, even when it's up against an army of high-HP thugs and SCs where no-one has MR less than 18.

I can confirm this is true. I played in a game with Ermor, and I had something like 4 thousand troops on the screen, and the r'yleh player had it setup to cast the undead enslave spell. The caster who had been buffed by the communion just cast bone grinding multiple times instead :P

Jazzepi
Yikes! Do NOT bring this up, please. I'm trying mightily to banish that memory to the depths of my subconciousness. :hurt:

[Jazzepi]

I'm fighting Executor's leftover AI Sauromatian army in turn 80 of World in Crisis, and an AI D7 witch king killed himself and his vampire army with a couple Bone Grindings (he wasn't carrying gems). He probably would have been much better off spamming Disintegrate. The AI really likes Bone Grinding if it can manage to cast it, even when it's up against an army of high-HP thugs and SCs where no-one has MR less than 18.

I can confirm this is true. I played in a game with Ermor, and I had something like 4 thousand troops on the screen, and the r'yleh player had it setup to cast the undead enslave spell. The caster who had been buffed by the communion just cast bone grinding multiple times instead :P

Jazzepi
Yikes! Do NOT bring this up, please. I'm trying mightily to banish that memory to the depths of my subconciousness. :hurt:

That entire game was epic fail on the part of the AI. I lost more than half a dozen battles with HUGE Ermorian armies because my wind mages thought it would be a great idea to cast arrow fend instead of mass flight the latter of which would have flown them over the castle walls in a heartbeat.

Jazzepi

[Kuritza]

Duel requires a pearl and is dangerous for the caster. Control does not and is not.
Furthermore, CB 1.41 doesnt exclude magic duel; it gives yet another option for dealing with magic beings.
Btw, poison golems cant be magic dueled, yet they are very much controllable.
Magic resistance fails surprisingly often in real games. In Querty, I've seen Devils fail MR 25 on the second check or so, twice in a row. So when you have a whole communion of lizard shamans spamming Control, there's a very, very fat chance all your magic beings within melee range will happily desert. Good luck fighting with markatas without supporting thugs. :)

[Sombre]

Setting up big reverse communions of lizard shamans is a pretty big cost in and of itself. I don't know anything about this control problem in CBM though so I definitely can't disagree. It's true that mr checks can be really weird.

[Kuritza]

Change lizard shamans in my example to stargazers, star children and whatever cheap national S1 you like - it will get much cheaper.
I just dont understand why Control should be easier to cast than Mind control. Its not like magic beings need yet another single-target counter.

Better buff Unravelling somehow for the purpose of beating massed magic beings; right now its competly useless. Puts 'decay' effect of magic beings (they tend to have 1000+ lifespans, so good luck getting ANY effect with that) and feebleminds your own mages.

[VedalkenBear]

I have to say, I seem to do pretty okay with Bandar Log without _having_ to use the Gandharvas. Of course, I do play SP, pretty much.

I do like running around with an entirely Abysian army, though. And using a Warlock Apprentice to bootstrap me into Blood.

[Lihaässä]

Is there any documentation for CBM? The idea of the mod is great, but it's a bummer that the changes cannot be seen anywhere.

[rdonj]

There should be a readme that comes with the mod files.

[chrispedersen]

There should be a readme that comes with the mod files.

there is! the .dm is the mod file and the .txt is the readme.

[Lihaässä]

I see, unfortunately I didn't take the split file which contains the readme files. Thanks.

[rdonj]

There should be a readme that comes with the mod files.

there is! the .dm is the mod file and the .txt is the readme.

I meant that there was one, not that there isn't and should be one. Sory if I wasn't clear :)

[iceboy]

With the new patch out is there an update in the works?

[quantum_mechani]

Yes (though it was already in the works), hopefully I'll have time to polish it up in the next few weeks

[llamabeast]

Summary: The zip in the first post has been changed slightly, but there's no need to download it because the change is very minor. The Blindlord bug is fixed though, so you may want it for that reason.

---

Long version:

I have modified CBMcomplete_1.41.dm in the zip in the first post, with QM's permission.

Due to the slightly different way that dominions loads mods in text mode, the original version was not compatible with the llamaserver; I fixed it at the time and ever since the LlamaServer has been running a different version to all the players. Being as the change was very minor this has never been an issue, however it can affect spells in mod nations, and has now done so in Lapis.

So, I've tidied the LlamaServer version and uploaded it. I also used the opportunity to fix the Blindlord Air-8 bug. He now has Holy-1 as intended.

[mindlar]

I was looking at the prices for some of the blood summons and was confused by the prices of some of the spells.

Bind Fiend costs 2, Bind Devil costs 3, Bind Frost Fiend costs 2, Bind Storm Demon costs 3, Bind Demon Knight costs 5. Ritual of Five Gates costs 28 slaves (13 more than the individual summons), requires 3 more blood than the individual summons, and requires 2 more levels of research.

I'm sure there is a reason that Ritual of Five Gates costs almost twice as many blood slaves as the individual summons, but I can't think of any other than the reduced amount of mage time required.

A similar issue arises with the level 9 spells: Infernal Forces (50 blood slaves for 7+ devils), Infernal Tempest (50 blood for 7+ storm demons), Forces of Ice (50 blood for 8+ frost fiends), Forces of Darkness (50 blood for 14+ fiends). Infernal Crusade (50 blood for 10+ knights) is the only one which potentially presents a cost savings.

[Jazzepi]

Those spells really are only there to save you mage time.

Jazzepi

[Reay]

Yeah, I was wondering about that myself. One factor is the time saving for mages. Also, they do not require the secondary paths of magic for Ritual of Five Gates.

[Endoperez]

Saving time of Blood mages can (at least theoretically) be transformed into increased slave income. I believe 4 B2 mages hunting instead of casting wcouldn't have much trouble catching more than 13 slaves per turn.

[JimMorrison]

Bind Fiend costs 2, Bind Devil costs 3, Bind Frost Fiend costs 2, Bind Storm Demon costs 3, Bind Demon Knight costs 5. Ritual of Five Gates costs 28 slaves (13 more than the individual summons), requires 3 more blood than the individual summons, and requires 2 more levels of research.

Saving time of Blood mages can (at least theoretically) be transformed into increased slave income. I believe 4 B2 mages hunting instead of casting wcouldn't have much trouble catching more than 13 slaves per turn.

Those spells really are only there to save you mage time.

Jazzepi

Ehhh, in Vanilla, a Fiend of Darkness costs 5, I believe all others cost you 7 slaves apiece. Adding a couple of extra boosters, then pushes efficiency for the high end spells significantly higher than the single cast spells.

2-3 slaves I believe is really much too cheap, I mean over a 50% discount from Vanilla, on units that see a lot of play even at full price.....?

Yeah sure, you can open up other blood hunting provinces, of course. But, most people would want to saturate to the point that the rate of blood income to gold income gives them the most satisfactory results. In many cases, this would indicate it to be easier to just Monthly cast the low level versions of the spells. This warps the blood economy a bit, making the big spells a very big trade-off, rather than a no-brainer.

Can't believe I didn't notice this myself. o.O

[Huzurdaddi]

2-3 slaves I believe is really much too cheap, I mean over a 50% discount from Vanilla, on units that see a lot of play even at full price.....?

Sure devils see a lot of play at full price, but where do those units come from? Usually from the higher levels spells: ritual of the five gates, the level 9 spells, and soul contracts. I think that making these lower level summon cheap was a brilliant move by QM as it adds new strategies.

I also don't think it is overpowered at all. In the early game mage turns are at a premium and dedicating a decent mage (in many, but not all, cases a capital only mage to monthly casting a ritual is expensive).

I do have one question though, and it is not directly related to the change in blood summons (although it is in a way). It seems, that even with these changes, that people still prefer to use their gems to forge items for thugs than summon troops. Perhaps it is time to go back to addressing the cost of some of the really popular items in the game, such as:

Dwarven Hammer
Frost Brand
Vine Shield
Eye Shield
Anti-magic amulet
Lucky pendant

(I am sure that there are many more). These items are forged, in great quantity, in most games. For good reason, they are fantastic bargains. Maybe that needs to be addressed? I know that QM tried to fix the cost on the dwarven hammer and people rebelled, but now that them mod is so very good maybe now is the time to try it again?

[chrispedersen]

Ref boosters:

One of the interesting aspects of the game is that empowering is so expensive, and booster items so cheap. AND booster items can be handed around.

Changing that has long been a pet idea of mine - but the game implications are really strong - not that strong is a bad thing - but it may be the thing with the biggest single change to the game.

Boosting the cost of all boosters (say by 50), changes the value of cross path mages. Changes the relative strengths of nations; increases the value of gems, delays the onset into mid and late game.

[Wrana]

I'd agree about a Frost Brand. I'm making it myself, but it still feels criminal. I'd say that 10 gems and possibly Water 2 requirement would be OK...

[Jazzepi]

I've always thought the difference between fire brands and frost brands was fine. Ice resistance is usually the worst of the three since favored thugs are likely to be undead and thus already immune, and more deadly/common evocation magics are straight up fire damage then straight up cold damage.

Also, the firebrand loses 4 points of damage and 1 point of defense over the frost brand, but gains armor piercing which makes a difference against high level SCs which regularly will have 25-30 armor.

Jazzepi

[Dragar]

yeah, but fire brands are a lot tougher to make

I think dwarven hammers are worse than frost brands though, seriously how many players that survive a year or 2 in a game don't have at least 1 hammer? They are exceptionally powerful in how much they can save - a hammer probably saves on average at least 3 gems per turn, so is 3x+ better than a clam, which people generally agree make for overpowering stategies. Yet a hammer is so easy to obtain, single path of 2.

10% reduction in forge cost is probably a lot more reasonable. It can gain a 2x bonus against constructs as a thematic compensation

[chrispedersen]

On the one hand, increasing the cost of frost brands would nerf (slightly) Niefle. But generally water is already noncompetitive with death and astral...

[Wrana]

Actually, hammers require an Earth 3. :) If you mean that AFTER you research the higher level of Construction you COULD make first Earth Boots and after that, Hammer, you may also argue that Wish requires Astral 5... :P
Bonus against constructs would be useless too.

[quantum_mechani]

In regards to the cheaper low level blood spells, it's possible they might displace some high level summons, but before this they were not getting used at all. Ritual of the five gates is still theoretically good for when you don't have the cross-paths for other things, and the level 9 summons for late game when you can get the cross paths but not on a lot of mages (and of course the level 9s and the five gates save mage time). It's hard to say how all that falls out in the end, before a few games have been played to late game with the current price scheme.

As for item nerfs, I certainly agree some are way overused. But making items harder to forge is the source of much confusion and frustration. Unlike with spells, it's not clear what is going on when they are more expensive or higher research level, you only see you can't forge them when before you could. I should also note there is no good way to change price without change path requirements. Much, as I would like to (and in fact have in earlier versions), I think item nerfs are mostly off the table

[Jazzepi]

Could you take a second look at Fata Morgana? It costs 40 more gems than Gift of Nature's Bounty, and does almost nothing. It's like a terrible version of gift of nature's bounty, Riches from Beneath, and Mechanical Militia all rolled into one. The additional PD can't damage anything so it's only good when combined with a decent amount of regular PD. The income increase is miniscule (I cast it with a nation earning 1700 gold and went up to 1900 in a test game). The resource addition is noticable, but Riches does it much better and for a tiny fraction of the cost.

By the way, why does Mechanical Miliita still cost 80 gems?

Personally I think both of these spells should get some love. Make them cheaper, and buff the effects if you can. Maybe there's some way you can make the phantom PD better for Fata? Or raise the income boost?

Jazzepi

[chrispedersen]

Beckoning should be way cheaper as well.

[Wrana]

I'd say that the first one of them to be buffed should be Gift of Nature's Bounty itself! Then, probably, Riches from Beneath...

[rdonj]

Riches from beneath is not that weak. Plus it costs almost nothing in CBM. It's perfectly usable in its current form IMO. Actually I think CBM makes it a bit too good.

[JimMorrison]

Well my take on the Blood summons, is a bit more complicated.

For example, many nations already have trouble getting the large summons cast. They push for it, because although it takes significant effort and expense, the cost/benefit ratio of each cast makes up for the trouble.

With individual casts being dropped so drastically in price (I can see them being -slightly- more efficient than the large spell's base effect), it gives some nations a massive benefit, compared to others. For example Helheim/Vanheim can ultimately make good use of Storm Demons at 2 slaves apiece. Perhaps LA Ulm wants to use Storm Demons, they are relegated to their pretender, and for every 25 Demons that Vanheim is putting out, they are getting 7-8 for the same 50 slaves.

So to reiterate, I'm not saying it's not a good idea to slightly reduce the cost (7 slaves is insane for early game, I agree), but to slash costs by 60-70% on them is rather heavy handed, I think.


Also I was going to mention Leprosy. I don't know what gave the impression that it wasn't useful enough, but I always found it terrifying at 10 Death gems per cast. Hitting large armies with it (they're on the move, so no dome) can do more damage in a short time than almost any other attack. Now at 5 gems, in one game I am getting hit by ~3 per turn, and even units/mages with up to 18 MR are simply no match for it.


(Sorry if I seem overly critical about these things, though I admit, I am extremely bothered by the Leprosy change.)

[Jazzepi]

Well my take on the Blood summons, is a bit more complicated.

For example, many nations already have trouble getting the large summons cast. They push for it, because although it takes significant effort and expense, the cost/benefit ratio of each cast makes up for the trouble.

With individual casts being dropped so drastically in price (I can see them being -slightly- more efficient than the large spell's base effect), it gives some nations a massive benefit, compared to others. For example Helheim/Vanheim can ultimately make good use of Storm Demons at 2 slaves apiece. Perhaps LA Ulm wants to use Storm Demons, they are relegated to their pretender, and for every 25 Demons that Vanheim is putting out, they are getting 7-8 for the same 50 slaves.

So to reiterate, I'm not saying it's not a good idea to slightly reduce the cost (7 slaves is insane for early game, I agree), but to slash costs by 60-70% on them is rather heavy handed, I think.


Also I was going to mention Leprosy. I don't know what gave the impression that it wasn't useful enough, but I always found it terrifying at 10 Death gems per cast. Hitting large armies with it (they're on the move, so no dome) can do more damage in a short time than almost any other attack. Now at 5 gems, in one game I am getting hit by ~3 per turn, and even units/mages with up to 18 MR are simply no match for it.


(Sorry if I seem overly critical about these things, though I admit, I am extremely bothered by the Leprosy change.)

I'm actually surprised that spell would be made so cheap. I always thought 10 gems was a fine trade, especially with penetration gear. If you hit commanders it makes it much harder to micro, and they can get afflictions which make them drop gear that's buffing spell paths, or makes them so retarded that they can't cast their scripts (mute/feeblemind), or makes them lose an eye so that they have trouble aiming.

Jazzepi

[Reay]

I agree about Leprosy being too cheap in CBM. I always like using it with penetration items. It seems to cause more damage than the other rituals over the long term.

[Wrana]

Agree in both cases.

[iceboy]

Is it me or do some of the heroes and pretenders need balancing with all of the troops they spawn? Such as the Lord of the Gates with all of the shades it spawns it becomes unstoppable!

[Trumanator]

Well, I would say that the only really concrete reason for reversing a change would be if it becomes a problem in-game. AFAIK there haven't been any killer strategies using the LotG... That said, go ahead and see if you can put one together. :)

[quantum_mechani]

Leprosy: I'm not entirely convinced it's unbalanced at 5 gems... but I can certainly see that the effects can be rather annoying and mm inducing, so maybe it would be for the best if it were cast less.

Early Blood summons: It's a tough situation, on the one hand I'm not sure even for current prices they will see much use early, on the other hand I can see the point that they might abusable late game (and by that I mean displace other spells). The issue is, mage time is too valuable to waste on them when you first research them, but once you have everything researched all the sudden you have a huge glut of mage time. I'm not sure there is a real solution to this, but I suppose I can mess with the prices a bit again.

Lord of the Gates: I'm actually really pleased to actually get a compliant about him... he has been stacking up boosts in vain since dom2. :)

Out of all the troop generating pretenders/heroes he gets by far the most, but I'm not quite convinced it's overkill. I've played against several people trying to leverage the shade spam, and it's usually not to hard to use the usual undead counters on them.

[Wrana]

By the way, do you see any possible use for Lord of War? Soldiers generation has little real effect on his performance...

[Trumanator]

Okay, I went into SP to see what the Lord of the Gates was capable of. He is definitely a capable expander when given dom9, and likely would be even with ~dom 7. The shades do a lot to reduce hits to him, and are actually excellent units against indies. The main issue is that only Ermor and C'tis get him, and his paths aren't really anything they need. If I want more death with them I would probably go with a lich/ML. However, I might give him a shot as C'tis, since they have slightly more problems with expansion than Ermor. Past indy clearing, he does drop off in usefulness. Though he is still fully equipable, he just doesn't measure up to an E9 cyclops, or one of the multi-armed pretenders. Perhaps adding 1E? That seems thematic, and would make me seriously consider him for a low level E-D bless for my mages. Though even as is, you can get E4 D4, dom9, and decent scales without too much trouble.

After all the above meandering, I suppose I would conclude that his lack of use has more to do with his narrow availability than anything else, and I can easily see him as simply a pretender who just needs someone to take a second look at him.

[VedalkenBear]

I love the Lord of the Gates. I (personally) like the auto-summoners, except those that produce troops that require upkeep.

Here's a theoretical question. For the Lord of War (or the Celestial General), what is the tipping point for a summon that you have to actually command? E.g., would a Lord of War that auto-summoned nothing, but could use Summon Allies to summon 25 infantry and 5 cavalry be balanced? What about 15 and 3? I would much prefer a design that used 'Summon Allies' over auto-summon, because of the control it allows.

[fungalreason]

I found the Lord of War to be a reasonable choice as an awake SC for Bogarus. The units are only slightly worse than their national ones, but it lets you you get away with sloth scales without severely hampering early expansion efforts

[JimMorrison]

Leprosy is not just micro management. Even a single cast against a large army can death sentence 1000g worth of mages and many gems worth of summoned elites. Cast that 3x a turn, every turn on an invader and if you can stall him for a few months, he's completely screwed - unless he is just totally outplaying you otherwise.

Even at 10 gems a player with a small stockpile can ruin an enormously expensive army at relatively little cost - at 5 gems that ruination is easy just off of your monthly income. As if Death nations needed less expensive tools of destruction. :p


The Demons are a complicated issue - I do cast the individuals sometimes in Vanilla, but only in rare cases, otherwise I shoot for the batch summons if I intend to use them in my strategy. But 2-3 slaves apiece is just wow for some nations.

For example, with a strong Blood income, over 14 turns you can make a raw Empowerment + Booster (total = 68 slaves w/hammer) outperform base batch spell casting. So if you get Blood started early, and take a long view, even a nation without cheap B+? mages can do better with the single casts at 2 slaves per demon. Even 3/demon isn't too bad, it's not until they cost at least 4 apiece that it's just not worth it in a reasonable amount of time.

[chrispedersen]

Well, I like giving gems the possibility of being used for something other than SC's

(thanks QM). However, I am concerned that Black Death at 6 too cheap. Try boosting it to 8? Or perhaps better, keep it at 6 but make the path requirement 7, instead of 4.

The problem isn't the casting of it, its the spamming of it.

[Jazzepi]

Leprosy: I'm not entirely convinced it's unbalanced at 5 gems... but I can certainly see that the effects can be rather annoying and mm inducing, so maybe it would be for the best if it were cast less.

Early Blood summons: It's a tough situation, on the one hand I'm not sure even for current prices they will see much use early, on the other hand I can see the point that they might abusable late game (and by that I mean displace other spells). The issue is, mage time is too valuable to waste on them when you first research them, but once you have everything researched all the sudden you have a huge glut of mage time. I'm not sure there is a real solution to this, but I suppose I can mess with the prices a bit again.

Lord of the Gates: I'm actually really pleased to actually get a compliant about him... he has been stacking up boosts in vain since dom2. :)

Out of all the troop generating pretenders/heroes he gets by far the most, but I'm not quite convinced it's overkill. I've played against several people trying to leverage the shade spam, and it's usually not to hard to use the usual undead counters on them.

Damn you :O

Address the global I mentioned!

You buffed Gift of Nature's Bounty, but left Fata Morgana useless!

Jazzepi

[quantum_mechani]

Damn you :O

Address the global I mentioned!

You buffed Gift of Nature's Bounty, but left Fata Morgana useless!

JazzepiHeh, sorry, I didn't mention Fata Morgana because I had already buffed it for next version. ;) I don't think Gift of Nature's Bounty is boosted any more though, seems to see a lot more use than in dom2 even without the buff.

About leprosy and black death- while they are superb at screwing somebody over they are less useful for the ultimate goal of winning. Strategies evolving around them take simply too long to come to fruition, and in black death's case ruins your spoils as well. As far as destroying armies leprosy is many times less scary than other options the late game can lob at them (any battlefield damage spell, flames from the sky). And for the purposes of any reasonable length conflict, the effect can be 90% offset simply by castings of astral healing... of course once the war is over having lots of diseased things is a mm nightmare. Given that, it will probably be 8 gems next version.


For example, with a strong Blood income, over 14 turns you can make a raw Empowerment + Booster (total = 68 slaves w/hammer) outperform base batch spell casting. So if you get Blood started early, and take a long view, even a nation without cheap B+? mages can do better with the single casts at 2 slaves per demon. Even 3/demon isn't too bad, it's not until they cost at least 4 apiece that it's just not worth it in a reasonable amount of time.

The problem with this analysis is that it totally ignores mage time, which is the critical factor far more than 2-3 slaves difference.

[Horst F. JENS]

I (personally) like the auto-summoners, except those that produce troops that require upkeep.

For the Lord of War (or the Celestial General), what is the tipping point for a summon that you have to actually command? E.g., would a Lord of War that auto-summoned nothing, but could use Summon Allies to summon 25 infantry and 5 cavalry be balanced? What about 15 and 3? I would much prefer a design that used 'Summon Allies' over auto-summon, because of the control it allows.

The point of auto-summon instead of summon-allies (as far as i understand) is that auto-summon let your pretender do other valuable things with his time, like search, forge, cast etc.

Maybe the auto-summon should be dominion-strength-dependent like with the ghost king ?

I find a batch-summon-allies Lord of War scary because i would strip him of magic and use him as a mobile troop-factory. But maybe that is exact what he need to become more popular.

[Jazzepi]

I love the Lord of the Gates. I (personally) like the auto-summoners, except those that produce troops that require upkeep.

Here's a theoretical question. For the Lord of War (or the Celestial General), what is the tipping point for a summon that you have to actually command? E.g., would a Lord of War that auto-summoned nothing, but could use Summon Allies to summon 25 infantry and 5 cavalry be balanced? What about 15 and 3? I would much prefer a design that used 'Summon Allies' over auto-summon, because of the control it allows.

I can't imagine a pretender being given "summon allies". Usually when you have a pretender you do one of four things.

1. Invade PD provinces. (cyclops, wyrm, PoD)
2. Site Search (Rainbow mages / mages with high levels in off paths)
3. Research (primarily rainbow mages)
4. Forge (Any god can do this)

Summoing allies is almost always strictly worse than any of the above 4. Basically the last thing you would ever want your pretender to do is sit around summoning chaff, or even regularish units. To balance something like this, your pretender would have to spit out 20+ units a turn. Probably more, actually. 25 infantry, 5 calvary, and 10 archers could be good. The idea is that you would literally want him to summon a small raiding force each time he is used.

Jazzepi

[Jazzepi]

Damn you :O

Address the global I mentioned!

You buffed Gift of Nature's Bounty, but left Fata Morgana useless!

Jazzepi

Heh, sorry, I didn't mention Fata Morgana because I had already buffed it for next version. ;) I don't think Gift of Nature's Bounty is boosted any more though, seems to see a lot more use than in dom2 even without the buff.

I meant you buffed Gift of Nature's Bounty from vanilla version ;)

I think it's fine as you have it now. It's difficult to research, and expensive castings of gift of health are more in vogue these days then extra money.

Jazzepi

[Zeldor]

QM:

I think that both Leprosy and Black Death would be viable at 8-10D gems per casting. Black Death is level4? Huh, I thought it's level 7[which it definetely should be, well, at least 6]. And QM knows why the cost of Black Death can be not so big :)

There are wars you don't win. Or those where you don't care for spoils. Black Death is a nasty spell, but not really great against bigger enemies, as their income is really distributed.

And could you maybe add a small item pack? Water and fire could really use more items. Especially water. Use of W gems is really boring :)

[JimMorrison]

About leprosy and black death- while they are superb at screwing somebody over they are less useful for the ultimate goal of winning. Strategies evolving around them take simply too long to come to fruition, and in black death's case ruins your spoils as well. As far as destroying armies leprosy is many times less scary than other options the late game can lob at them (any battlefield damage spell, flames from the sky). And for the purposes of any reasonable length conflict, the effect can be 90% offset simply by castings of astral healing... of course once the war is over having lots of diseased things is a mm nightmare. Given that, it will probably be 8 gems next version.

Flames From the Sky is 50 gems. For this, it tends to kill less units outright, than Leprosy will Disease. The overland kill spells are HP+Prot dependent, while Leprosy is only an MR check - many more later game and elite units can survive multiple fire/ice bombardments, and yet still more than likely die to the first penetration boosted Leprosy that touches them. The spell truly is a bargain at 10D, I've seen it used to great effect multiple times now - including the current situation, where it is being entirely abused at 5D/cast.....


[quote]
For example, with a strong Blood income, over 14 turns you can make a raw Empowerment + Booster (total = 68 slaves w/hammer) outperform base batch spell casting. So if you get Blood started early, and take a long view, even a nation without cheap B+? mages can do better with the single casts at 2 slaves per demon. Even 3/demon isn't too bad, it's not until they cost at least 4 apiece that it's just not worth it in a reasonable amount of time.

The problem with this analysis is that it totally ignores mage time, which is the critical factor far more than 2-3 slaves difference.

It hardly ignores mage time. To cast the big batch spells usually requires you to use your pretender, a summoned Demon Lord, or a special hero, and the use of artifact boosters. Building just 1 castle where you pump out cheapo low path demon spammers allows your big guys to do other things. For a little bit of gold and effort, you've allowed someone to exchange 7 nearly useless little no name mages, for the use of their most powerful mages. I'd do that in a heartbeat any chance I got. Dropping the cast from 7 to 2 makes that choice feasible, and economical - and it makes it virtually impossible to boost the single caster high enough to justify using the batch spell over the single spam.

[quantum_mechani]

Flames From the Sky is 50 gems. For this, it tends to kill less units outright, than Leprosy will Disease. The overland kill spells are HP+Prot dependent, while Leprosy is only an MR check - many more later game and elite units can survive multiple fire/ice bombardments, and yet still more than likely die to the first penetration boosted Leprosy that touches them. The spell truly is a bargain at 10D, I've seen it used to great effect multiple times now - including the current situation, where it is being entirely abused at 5D/cast.....
Firstly, Flames from the Sky has been 35 gems in every version of Dom3, including every CB version. Secondly, the spell can be stacked in one turn to kill even higher hp things. Thirdly, for the most part the things that escape other artillery also laugh off leprosy. You also seem to be saying failing the mr check = death which is an extreme exaggeration. It's a rare situation you don't have healing spells to prolong the effected units almost indefinitely, or access to some kind of healing to solve the problem completely.



It hardly ignores mage time. To cast the big batch spells usually requires you to use your pretender, a summoned Demon Lord, or a special hero, and the use of artifact boosters. Building just 1 castle where you pump out cheapo low path demon spammers allows your big guys to do other things. For a little bit of gold and effort, you've allowed someone to exchange 7 nearly useless little no name mages, for the use of their most powerful mages. I'd do that in a heartbeat any chance I got. Dropping the cast from 7 to 2 makes that choice feasible, and economical - and it makes it virtually impossible to boost the single caster high enough to justify using the batch spell over the single spam.It would indeed make a lot of sense to just build a fort, pump mages there to use the low level spells. Except, people are _already_ generally putting the maximum amount of gold they can into produceing mages. Which means that in general, sacrificing a bunch of mages for that is going to put you far behind in research of where you would be, and all the demons you can muster are probably not going to be a big help if you are behind in research. It's especially compounded if you already are using up a significant portion of your mages to sustain a blood economy.

Of course, as I was saying, once research is done, the whole situation changes. Suddenly you are rolling in more mage time than you know what to do with. So I certainly see the problem with the spells, I just do not see it being any kind of issue in the early/middle game (which is where they should be being cast). The real issue is that mage time goes almost instantaneously from being indispensable to almost worthless, it's very hard to make the spells account for both stages.

[chrispedersen]

In small to medium maps, one third of your income can be derived soley from the capital. Hence *two* castings of Black death are sufficient to drop income 20%.

Way more than an adequate return for mage time.

[quantum_mechani]

In small to medium maps, one third of your income can be derived soley from the capital. Hence *two* castings of Black death are sufficient to drop income 20%.

Way more than an adequate return for mage time.This is quite true... however I think you are actually perhaps safer from this in CB than base, considering how much easier domes are.

[chrispedersen]

Typically, you get two castings in before someone realizes... damn I should have put a dome up.

I think the spell is great - however in terms of power I think it should be d6-7 instead of d5

[Zeldor]

Black Death is level 7. Domes are level 5. So reasonable player in competitive MP game won't leave his capital undomed. The really bad thing is that some nations cannot put good domes up. Only A/S ones are really good at stopping spells. Well, to be honest, only air one is good, and it needs A4, which is extremely hard to get for many nations.

[Trumanator]

Can you stack domes? As in have both a forest dome and fire dome for example.

[Gregstrom]

You certainly can. You can have multiple domes of the same type, even.

[Jazzepi]

You certainly can. You can have multiple domes of the same type, even.

I know that this used to work (IE multiple domes of the same type would be effective) now I believe that multiple domes of the same type are no more effective than a singleton.

I'm not sure, though.

Jazzepi

[Zeldor]

I've heard that they are as effective as earlier, but passing 1 air dome and getting stopped by 2nd is enough to break one. Didn't test it seriously though.

And it looks like QM got convinced to increase cost of Black Death :P

[Atreidi]

I'll just put it out there:

What is the Conceptual Balance Mod? What does it do?

Could you post this in the Original Post,
Or in a word file in the zip?

Thanks.

[llamabeast]

I do believe there is some documentation in the zip which sets out to answer that question.

[Jazzepi]

I'll just put it out there:

What is the Conceptual Balance Mod? What does it do?

Could you post this in the Original Post,
Or in a word file in the zip?

Thanks.

It's a general mod that, for the most part, simply makes spells/creatures/items more effective/cheaper/easier to cast so that there are more options for a given nation. It does nerf a few things (like fire arrows) by making them more expensive/harder to cast, but in general it just opens up new options.

Jazzepi

[fungalreason]

Regarding the blood summons issue: Perhaps the best thing to do is not decrease the cost, but address the mage-time issue instead?

Maybe try changing it to summon ~3 (or whatever number is deemed appropriate) at cost that's higher per unit than the mass summons. That way it's feasible to build up a moderate number of them early game without destroying your research capabilities?

Late game people with blood mages of the appropriate paths for the mass summons would still get benefit out of them. Although I think those could probably be cheaper and/or summon more units than they do currently, given the difficulty in obtaining those paths.

[Stavis_L]

A few things I noticed while looking through:

1) Green dragon is in twice, once lines 170-176 (with stealthy), one in "monsters" lines 251-259 (no stealthy)
2) Armor for lord of war is commented (line 554). Purposeful?
3) 3228 --> mackaka ==> machaka (this typo is actually throughout the entire section on this nation)
4) Ulm hero "the locksmith" - desc speaks of great age. Might want to reflect in stat block.
5) line 7044 - "MR" --> "mr"
6) 7106, maverni "Champion of the Horn" hero seems to be added as a pretender; is this right?
7) 7715-7720 - the creature 2829 created here is not used. Perhaps it should be another multihero for early Oceania?
8) 8061-8074 - The red tengu is not added as a hero/multihero; should the mods here be in the hero section, or somewhere else?

[vfb]

The Visitor is broken as a CBM multihero because he's unique. When he appears in your capitol a second time, the first instance will vanish just like he'd been wished away. Not nice if he's leading armies about etc.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?p=686047

[Trumanator]

Not sure if this is a CBM issue, but the Vanadrott's armor has exactly the same stats as that of Vanherses/Vanjarls, despite being "lightweight scale mail". It seems either an enc. decrease is in order, or a prot increase.

[Illuminated One]

Is the moloch pretender any good in CBM?
I'd really like to use him some time, he looks cool for a nation heading towards demons, but all in all the prince of death seems to offer more. Also his paths aren't that useful to a demonic nation and 80 points for new paths... Can't the latter be changed to 30 or 40 to give him an edge against PoD (unless I'm missing something that does already)?

[Wrana]

I think he has slightly more hps and somewhat better stats. He also gets 3(?) free Imps at start of combat.
I would also like he to be more useful as Blood is mostly no problem to increase for nation with access to it, and Blood bless isn't so useful. And he is more rare than PoD...

[Omnirizon]

I propose that LA C'tis have all their national summons H level increased by one (at the very least)

reason:
LA C'tis is supposed to be a reanimate power that depends on these guys; ergo they should be a good deal, but as people have pointed out they are not.

consider this direct comparison:

LA Argatha can summon a Tomb Oracle at Conj5 for 30death with 3E 3D 3H and a ton of hitpoints, plus their are not `lifeless' and can benefit from regen; these guys can also reanimate.

LA C'tis can summon a Tomb King at Ench0 for 21death with 3H and a lot (but not a ton) of hitpoints, but they are lifeless and cannot regen; these guys can, of course, reanimate.

The only reason that no one cares that Tomb Oracles can reanimate is because they are so good no one would ever waste a turn doing that with them. For 9 more gems they get a ton more stuff. granted, they are Conj5 vs Ench0, but given the gem cost (ie. you won't summon either of these guys for a little while anyway) and the fact that Conj5 isn't really that difficult to access, I don't think the research requirement difference is really meaningful. Lastly, LA Argatha has other things they can benefit from such that Tomb Oracles do not have to be an integral part of their strategy (LA C'tis cannot, I believe, say the same thing about their tomb summons). Given these points, C'tis' tomb summons really need a push.

Conclusion:
do something to make Tomb Kings/Priests/Consorts on par with at least other national summons!!! one extra level of H would be nice, perhaps a possible random in death too.

[Redeyes]

I have noticed that some Giants (Niefel Jarls + EA Sacred, Hinnom Ashdod & Hinnom Rephaim, Gath Anakim, the Rasharaja) have speed 3. I think this is an unnecessary advantage and odd too, why should these giants be as quick overland as most cavalry and fliers?

[Trumanator]

Well their legs are two or three times longer than humans.

[iceboy]

Is the release very soon? Love this mod! :)

[Redeyes]

Well their legs are two or three times longer than humans.

I think that's better reflected in tactical movement.
There their advantage is just 7%~, to the 50/100% advantage against human strategical movement.



And another note:
Have you considered modding some of the magical sites?
I don't know if it is possible, but I would at least like to see at least the Ultimate Gateway and Summoning Circle changed.

[Zeldor]

If it's possible I want to remove all uber magic sites like Ultimate Gateway. Everything over 20% for schools and I guess all sites with construction bonus. Changes like that are a bit harsh, so it may be a good idea to use it in single mod before putting it into CBM [but I doubt that people would really protest here, that sites are really game changing].

[Wrana]

[but I doubt that people would really protest here, that sites are really game changing].
I would like to take an opportunity to protest. :) If you want chess, you can make an absolutely symmetrical map in any case. Special sites are large part of the fun - even if opponent discovers them!

[Redeyes]

Interest objecting in a discussion thread for a balance mod :)

I would be happy if the few sites which provide benefit greater than any other are brought in line, or unbalances things too much in favor of the controller.

I think the Sacrificial Circle and Ultimate Gateway are counted among those, though there can of course be differing thoughts on what constitutes "balanced"

[Burnsaber]

If you want chess, you can make an absolutely symmetrical map in any case. Special sites are large part of the fun - even if opponent discovers them!

Yeah, some randomness is a bit sweet. But think about this. You are simply playing the game and then someone across the map finds the fabled "I Win Button" site, enters to it with and wins the game. Pretty boring huh?

Ultimate Gateway, Sacrificial Circle, etc.. are practically the same thing but worse since the effect is not instantenous. If your opponent in the former example had Ultimate Gateway instead of "I Win Button", you'd still be happily playing the game, without knowing that you have in fact, already lost.

Straight out confortational war? Ultimate Gateway guy wins since he has twice as much stuff as you have. Slow-grinding resource war? Ultimate Gateway guy wins since he can summon twice the guys you can. Blitz? Ultimate Gateway guy wins since he can instantly turn his gems into uber-cheap summon army.

However, the site-modding commands are a bit limited, so you can't alter the school bonuses these sites give. If you want some unigue uber sites, I'd probably suggest changing them to give high amount of gems (like 5+).

[Starshine_Monarch]

For something like this I think it would be a good idea to make the game announce the discovery of unique sites like these to the other players, like global enchantments.

By a message as simple as "(NationX) has found (Name of Unique Site)," it would alter the game in that, while the nation with the site still gets the original benefit, he'd be more likely to get ganged up on. So he has a 50% Conjuration bonus there and can summon twice as much stuff for the same price. With that announcement, he's more likely not just facing one other nation anymore, but more like 2 or 3, maybe more if they can hit him from behind the his immediate neighbors with stealth armies or teleporting/trapeezing SCs. If he wants the privilege of keeping that site, he now needs to step up his game and be good to his friends in order to keep from being besieged on all sides by hungry nations that want the site out of his hands.

Of course this isn't something that CBM can fix. I just thought I'd put in my two bits.

[DonCorazon]

I have mixed feelings about OP sites. On one hand, they are a blast to find and make site searching exciting. On the other hand, I tend to agree that they can be the decisive factor in competitive MP games. It seems pretty harsh to invest months into a game, and ultimately lose because your opponent effectively was able to double his resources via a site. I'd be curious to see when people post wins, what key sites they had. My sense is that it makes a pretty big difference.

[Zeldor]

I have Summoning Circle in one MP game and I can honestly say it's game changing. My nation is weak on B [Midgard], but I can get hordes out of that site. Really hordes of vampires. And other nasty stuff.

[Aezeal]

well some sites should just show on the map so you get a sort of king of the hill fight for those provinces

[Burnsaber]

I just want to state that I like the fact that there are some super-sites out there, it makes site searching exciting. But Ultimate Gateway is almost like having your own personal secret Arcane Nexus, it's just too much. Here are some ideas to replace the school bonuses on these sites:

1) Make them give lots of gems (like 5 or 6 in single type)
2) Cool recruitables.
3) Loads of money & resources?

err.. that's pretty much it. Althought I have something to add on the "recruitables" scenario. Now that we have the "unique" command, we could make a site that allows recruitment of a special let's say Seraph(with gold cost like 1000 gold?) from a rare unique magic site (since he's unique recruiting him again would just result in him teleporting back). Seraph might be a tad extreme, but I'm just throwing the idea out there.

Replacing the high school bonus site with these "SC sites" would still keep the excitment of site finding. The nice thing about the "SC's" would be that they would be pretty visible and not give some sort of hidden advantage. It might also be intresting to see someone to conquer the province with the SC site and make it suddenly switch sides in mid-war! It would be the obvious achilles heel to these guys.

Since this would require sort of adding new units, it might be out of jurisdiction of CBM. But I seem to growing fond of this idea. Heh, looks like I'llbe taking on another modding project sometime in the future...

[Reay]

I think the rest of the players should be notified in the message log when a bonus site is found.

This represents rumours spreading around the world about this famous site.

I don't think it should specify where it is exactly though? Maybe its just a myth. :)

[DonCorazon]

I like that idea. It would be cool and maybe help balance things if it specified a region of provinces where it might be found.

"A merchant arrives with tales that a mystical portal called the Ultimate Gateway has been found. His tales indicate it could lie in X, Y. or Z province."

[Burnsaber]

I like that idea. It would be cool and maybe help balance things if it specified a region of provinces where it might be found.

"A merchant arrives with tales that a mystical portal called the Ultimate Gateway has been found. His tales indicate it could lie in X, Y. or Z province."

That would be nice. But it cannot be done (nor can anything like that, actually) with the current modding tools. One can always dream..

But since we are talking about MP here, you could just devise a new rule on the games one hosts.


"If a player finds a magical site [X, Y, Z] he must immediately send a message (using the in-game messaging system) to all other players about the finding and the province number where the site lies."


It's pretty easy to cheat out of this, but it can be pretty easily checked after the game if the guy actually had left a "I win!" site unannounced.

[Illuminated One]

Hmm, I like the idea, really.
Maybe when I have time (and it can be added to llamaserver) I could make an external tool that does this.

[llamabeast]

Sounds like a good idea to me Burn.

[chrispedersen]

Hrm. p3e or pyg could actually probably code this; the guy that did the msg checker.

All you would have to do is check compile a list of unique sites and search the turn file for them. If found modify the turn file to include a message to everyone saying "Player Y has found Site X yada yada yada".

.*all*.

[Burnsaber]

OK, yesterday I did a list of problematic sites. There's 19 of them, and most of them are rare + unique. Steel ovens and Mount Chining are uncommon, thought. I used the following criteria (thanks to archaeo in the dom3 IrC channel)

alt and const: max 0%
conj and blood: max 20%
others: 30%


id# name era frq mask lvl type F A W E S D N B gold res sup unr exp lab fort runit1 conj alter evo const ench thau blood
474 Ancient Forge 2 735 1 Earth 1 EPÄTOSI 20%
481 Banefire Forge 2 735 1 Death 1 1 EPÄTOSI 20%
475 Chamber of Changes 2 735 1 Earth 1 EPÄTOSI 20%
477 Conjurer's Cave 2 516 3 Earth 1 EPÄTOSI 30%
482 Crown of Darkness 2 16388 4 Death 3 EPÄTOSI 40%
466 Gorge of Mystery 2 256 2 Astral 1 EPÄTOSI 20%
397 Mount Chaining 1 16607 1 Blood EPÄTOSI 40%
520 Oak of Ages 2 16607 3 Nature EPÄTOSI 50%
637 Pool of Unhealthy Rites 2 223 2 Blood 1 1 20%
395 Summoning Circle 2 223 3 Blood EPÄTOSI 60%
471 Temple of the Turning Tide 2 223 1 Water 1 EPÄTOSI 529 Sea Father 20%
696 The Basalt Forge 2 16640 2 Earth 1 20%
495 The Blood Rock 2 16388 3 Blood EPÄTOSI 30%
401 The Ebony Circle 2 16607 2 Blood 1 3 TOSI 339 Sorcerer 30%
313 The Ultimate Gateway 2 17119 3 Astral EPÄTOSI 50%
173 The Steel Ovens 1 17119 0 Fire 75 EPÄTOSI 20%
455 The Water Solstice 2 16416 2 Astral 4 2 EPÄTOSI 50%
484 Twisting Woods 2 2 1 Nature 1 EPÄTOSI 20%
305 Village of Strange Men 2 223 1 Astral 1 EPÄTOSI 20%



I admit, it's pretty hard to read. But anyone out there is doing such a program, he can pick the names from there.

[lch]

Hrm. p3e or pyg could actually probably code this; the guy that did the msg checker.
That was Illuminated One, who already posted above.

If found modify the turn file to include a message to everyone saying "Player Y has found Site X yada yada yada"
That's nothing else than hacking the turn files. It would require breaking through the game's safety measures. A program that just reads the turn files and finds out if a nation found a new site that hasn't been uncovered before, then allows to prepare a MOTD on a website or an email to all, would be quite a feat.

[Wrana]

An idea of such sites being announced to all players is good. Of course, it will require cooperation from those who find them. In this case, it's a pity that the current patch doesn't allow sites to be seen by scouts/scrying. Of course, this also goes beyond the mod scope...
As for unique recruits idea, I don't think it has any feasibility. By the time such sites are found and become useful, one more SC just isn't going to cut it. He will be much more useful if site is found at early game, but it probably won't be found at this time. "Lots of gold and resources" probably fall into the same category - they are useful at start, but not so much at lategame, while discount sites are other way around.

[llamabeast]

With lch's help, it looks possible that such a feature could be included in the llamaserver. That won't be for a couple of months though.

[Burnsaber]

With lch's help, it looks possible that such a feature could be included in the llamaserver. That won't be for a couple of months though.

Sweeet.

That's pretty much the best fix. It takes away the most problematic aspect of these sites, the secrecy. Now their power has price.

You found Sacrificial Circle? Congratulations, you can use it to attain great power. Just be prepared to defend it. At least the player who finds the site has two turns to reinforce his defenses.

May I also suggest to make the post to other players pretty epic. I was thinking something along the line of the Dire Portent messages when someone casts a global. Different one for each site would be perfect, me thinks, but could be a lot of work. If there's need for it, I could take a shot at writing these messages (there probably are better writers out there, thought).

In the mean time, I made a mod to eliminate the 19 problematic sites (DBS = Disable Bonus Sites). I've set them to rarity = 5, so that they cannot be randomly generated, only placed by map and mod commands.

[Wrana]

Agree - that would be the best way.

[lch]

May I also suggest to make the post to other players pretty epic. I was thinking something along the line of the Dire Portent messages when someone casts a global. Different one for each site would be perfect, me thinks, but could be a lot of work. If there's need for it, I could take a shot at writing these messages (there probably are better writers out there, thought).
Yeah, you should better give examples of what you'd like to see instead of merely suggesting them. That way they'll be implemented a lot faster. :)

[Illuminated One]

With lch's help, it looks possible that such a feature could be included in the llamaserver. That won't be for a couple of months though.

Sweeet.

That's pretty much the best fix. It takes away the most problematic aspect of these sites, the secrecy. Now their power has price.

You found Sacrificial Circle? Congratulations, you can use it to attain great power. Just be prepared to defend it. At least the player who finds the site has two turns to reinforce his defenses.

May I also suggest to make the post to other players pretty epic. I was thinking something along the line of the Dire Portent messages when someone casts a global. Different one for each site would be perfect, me thinks, but could be a lot of work. If there's need for it, I could take a shot at writing these messages (there probably are better writers out there, thought).

In the mean time, I made a mod to eliminate the 19 problematic sites (DBS = Disable Bonus Sites). I've set them to rarity = 5, so that they cannot be randomly generated, only placed by map and mod commands.

I guess if you are doing that the best format would be

id [tab] Text [some sign that is never used like @][break]
...

Or leave the id way and make just a line for every possible site ordered by ID.

Text [some sign that is never used like @][break] for sites that should be announced
- [break] for normal sites

That would require the least amount of reformating.

[llamabeast]

That won't be for a couple of months though.

At least the player who finds the site has two turns to reinforce his defenses.

Lest there was any confusion, I meant it will be a month or two till I have time (because I will have finished my thesis! yay!). Then hopefully there is going to be a party of llamabeast activity, not least I will finally release my endgame summons mod and fix the lovely long list of llamaserver suggestions and glitches.

[Burnsaber]

Yeah, you should better give examples of what you'd like to see instead of merely suggesting them. That way they'll be implemented a lot faster. :)

Okay, heres a quick one for Ultimate Gateway. It's not too polished, just to show what I mean. I can write one for each site, if you have the need.


The myths have been proven right! A great pillar of light has been seen, ascending to the heavens from province Y. The God X has found the tear in reality, the festering wound on creation, the one caused by ancient horrors in times aeons past. It is a source of great arcane might, the Ultimate Gateway between which is and which can be, a testament of pure potential. Extraodinary creatures previously known only in myths and legends will heed the call of the Gateway, flocking to the well of arcane might. X can easily subjugate these creatures into service and use their might on the rise to godhood.

The endless legions of creatures from the gate are a sign of God X's divinity and will soon flood the world. Show that you are the one true God! Take the Ultimate Gateway from the heretics and make the legions scream your name!


I admit that there is a possibility of just using the informational route, but I don't think that would thematically fitting to game like dom3.

The God X has found site A, which grants conjuration bonus of Y. The site resides in province B.


At least the player who finds the site has two turns to reinforce his defenses.

Oh, Llamabeast what I meant by this was that when this is implemented, the guy who finds the site has would probably have two turns to reinforce his defenses. Since I don't know how this mystery program works, it's just a quess. Should've mentioned that.

Turn X: Player 1 finds Ultimate Gateway, starts sending in mages & protectors. Player sends his turn. The amazing program finds that Ultimate Gateway has been found, sends message to all other players.

Turn X+1: Other players receive the message of the Gateway. NAP's are cancelled, Teleports & Cloud Trapezes casted, mayhem ensues*.

So player 1 has turns X + (X + 1) to establish defences before any actual attacks & battles may happen.

* Well, probably not. People are usually busy in MP and probably won't have resources to assault another player immediately just because he found a cool site. But you know, diplomacy might be tough if people know that you have a gateway.

[Zeldor]

In my MP game my neighbours know that I have Summoning Circle for 50 turns. And some of them tried to do smth about it, their lives were short and miserable :)

[lch]

Since I don't know how this mystery program works, it's just a quess.
The "mystery program" would know that a new site has been found exactly in the turn that the site has been uncovered by a player. It could then generate a report via mail or web to other players, or postpone this by a few turns, if a more elaborate mechanism which caches those is being used.

[JimMorrison]

Seems to me that just cutting them is a little heavy handed. Since they can't be modified, a module could be built for CBM that disables these, but makes new versions with the same name, that are given weaker - but still useful - bonuses.

But it needs to be optional, so you can still have them available in SP, while also enjoying CBM.

[Zeldor]

BTW, Leprosy really has to cast at least 10D. And it can be too cheap at 10. It easily affects even mages.

[Aezeal]

you could give them other malussus though death 3, misfortune 3. but I have to admit that might not be enough.
Personally I think the message is a good solution though.

[Wrana]

Death would be wrong thematically. Misfortune - maybe, for some.

[mathusalem]

I think there is a bug : agartha LA, blind fighter with A8...

CBM is the only mod I use.

[Aezeal]

do you have the latest version? (I seem to recall this was mentioned a few versions ago)

[llamabeast]

If you redownload, mathusalem, you will find that bug has magically disappeared.

[Aezeal]

though there are some that state it's not a bug but just a much needed balancing thingie for agartha

[mathusalem]

you're right, I had a older version, sorry !

[Jazzepi]

Mother of monsters should really be able to command her auto-summons. As is, she has 5 magic command, which isn't enough to handle her own freespawn.

Jazzepi

[Lingchih]

Could Helheim get a bit of love in the next CBM? I know they were pretty well nerfed a while back.

[Trumanator]

Something I just noticed in Beyond: Shatter is range 10! How on earth are you supposed to hit anything with that? I doubt its high on the AI's priority list.

[Redeyes]

Could Helheim get a bit of love in the next CBM? I know they were pretty well nerfed a while back.

Vanheim before Helheim, I had say.

[chrispedersen]

Yomi, Agartha, TC, Oceania before either = )

[Kuritza]

TC?... Whats wrong with TC, for heavens sake? oO