Spell list for CPCS v0.9 [Archive]

Endoperez

January 28th, 2009, 05:05 AM

I think Cloud spells are possible. I don't remember the details, but increasing some feature by 3000 nade a cloud that stays in place for 3 turns. IIRC, this was used in the mod that fixed Mists of Deception.

I've always wanted to see more cross-path Water spells. Poor Masters of the Way...

Water/Death:
* Streams of Tartarus: chilly waters of tartarus cause various nasty effects to living beings
* Death/Water ritual: Call Ghost Ship, including a commander with Sailing ability (use sprites from Damned Admiral spell and perhaps some mercs). Could also work as an underwater combat summon that summons lots of undead that disappear after battle.

Water/Nature (existing spells: naiads, bone melter, Mossbody):
* low-level version of Bone Melter
* underwater spell (or several) that create an AoE poison cloud effect
* W1N1, 100 fatigue (1 gem) combat summon that calls 2 Naiad Warriors

Water/Earth: Earth Grip/Meld-like effect with high AoE (transforms the battlefield into mud).

Water/Astral:
* Waterway, a teleport spell restricted to seas and coastal provinces (hard to do or even impossible).

Aezeal

January 28th, 2009, 05:47 AM

I myself think holy/something spells are underrepresented.. holy magic as is is sort of weak. I've tried to make a few holy spells in my shiar mod and I think they work out nice. No real use to post here since they are thematic for that mod only. Soul to stone gives undead only (the 0 prot ethereal beings that nation has) stoneskin in AoE or BF wide variation. Which is nice against magic weapons since else they had no def at all.

Anyway, I'd propose to make holy/nature magic combo's or those 2 with other paths maybe but not give them combat offensive spells but AoE buffs etc etc.

rdonj

January 28th, 2009, 07:14 AM

More/better healing spells would be nice. For example, enchantment 3 gives you a 10 yard, 3 or so precision spell with aoe 1. That's pretty hard to use under normal conditions. You'd need a fairly durable mage casting that, you can only script it 5 times, and if you've got a mage who can you're almost certainly better off using them for another purpose. Also, I'm not even sure it's possible, but fatigue-reducing spells would be nice. Say a cloud sort of along the same lines as healing mists. You definitely don't want 100 precision long range fatigue restorers though, that would be far too abusable. I'm thinking something more like a lower-level version of Relief that you could use to help counter stellar cascades, or just help keep up some of your better heavy infantry.

Redeyes

January 28th, 2009, 08:03 AM

If you introduce new spells does the Combat-AI use them?

Burnsaber

January 28th, 2009, 11:01 AM

I just had a long good jog and thought about this mod. I added Mod goals so that I'll make a structured and logical mod. Not just a collection of random spells for random paths.

Lots of stuff

Thanks! Many viable ideas.

I myself think holy/something spells are underrepresented.. holy magic as is is sort of weak. I've tried to make a few holy spells in my shiar mod and I think they work out nice. No real use to post here since they are thematic for that mod only. Soul to stone gives undead only (the 0 prot ethereal beings that nation has) stoneskin in AoE or BF wide variation. Which is nice against magic weapons since else they had no def at all.

Anyway, I'd propose to make holy/nature magic combo's or those 2 with other paths maybe but not give them combat offensive spells but AoE buffs etc etc.

I decided to make this mod as "Vanilla"-friendly as possible and fitting to the Dominions world. Since there are no vanilla crosspath holy spells, I've decided against them.

Perhaps after I've finished the first spells.

More/better healing spells would be nice. For example, enchantment 3 gives you a 10 yard, 3 or so precision spell with aoe 1. That's pretty hard to use under normal conditions. You'd need a fairly durable mage casting that, you can only script it 5 times, and if you've got a mage who can you're almost certainly better off using them for another purpose. Also, I'm not even sure it's possible, but fatigue-reducing spells would be nice. Say a cloud sort of along the same lines as healing mists. You definitely don't want 100 precision long range fatigue restorers though, that would be far too abusable. I'm thinking something more like a lower-level version of Relief that you could use to help counter stellar cascades, or just help keep up some of your better heavy infantry.

I agree. There should be some weapons against fatigue. But this dangereous ground. If you make a single AoE anti-fatique spells that heals say 10 points of fatique, you could just spam it with your mages and have your sacred infatry going on and on and on and on and on..

If you introduce new spells does the Combat-AI use them?

Yes it will. I've seen this in my Alugra mod. The casting AI was especially fond of the fatique healing "Inner Reserves" spell.

Redeyes

January 28th, 2009, 12:01 PM

Some ideas to fill your open slots:

A/S: Shield of the Heavens, adds twist fate & charged body in a large area.

F/E: Summon Magma Elemental, as a water elemental but 2 crush attacks + Flame Strike, some protection, fire immunity/cold vulnerability and weak fire shield but no trample.
Con- Requires new sprite

F/N: Corpus Annihilō (Latin: Body to Nothing) as soul slay/bone melter but also deals fire damage in a small area.

F/S: Daystar's Blessing, adding flaming weapon, heat radiation and fire immunity effects as a self-buff. If flaming weapon doesn't work (no other spell does it), then fire shield.

E/N: Elemental Warding, as resist elements nature buff but in a small area, large with gem cost.

VedalkenBear

January 28th, 2009, 12:44 PM

Red: I _like_ Shield of the Heavens.

Working off of that:

S/A: Heavenly Glow, Grant a unit (square, etc.) Awe.

A/D: Styxian Storm, puts up a Storm and drops clouds that Feeblemind anyone in them (MR negates).

A/S: Wrathful Descent, Stellar Cascades + lingering cloud that does AN lightning damage.

W/N: Ink Cloud, Underwater only, Poison damage + blind

Aezeal

January 28th, 2009, 03:15 PM

I think charged body in large AoE is overpowered (on chaff for example it could really really destroy most armies.) combined with twistfate.... even more so.. would need to be a level 8-9 spell with requirement of liek 4-5 in a path and costing major gems.

rdonj

January 28th, 2009, 05:47 PM

For the fatigue-reducing cloud, I was thinking you'd pretty much not be able to give it more than 1 point of fatigue reduction. This is what relief gives, but because of DRN rolls it can give more than that. Basically I was talking about a smaller scale relief spell, plus if you make it a cloud it can affect enemy units also. Path requirements would be something like air/nature, air/water, or water/nature. If you don't like the idea that's fine though.

VedalkenBear

January 28th, 2009, 06:15 PM

Aezeal: Maybe I'm confused with Charge Body. Charge Body triggers on attack or hit? If it's hit, then Twist Fate doesn't combo with it, exactly. If on attack, it's a bit more problematic.

But still... what's not to like about a spell that can actually motivate something other than SC generation? Wouldn't that just increase the options available?

The one nation that would love this above all else (Caelum) both drastically needs something to improve the quality of their infantry, and doesn't normally get Astral magic. Alternately, you could see this as actually giving a use to Caelum's Shock-resistant troops.

Endoperez

January 28th, 2009, 06:45 PM

I decided to make this mod as "Vanilla"-friendly as possible and fitting to the Dominions world. Since there are no vanilla crosspath holy spells, I've decided against them.

Perhaps after I've finished the first spells.

Earth/Holy spells exist for MA Ulm. I agree with your decision, just thought to point that out.

It looks like, somehow, you confused me with Turin.

Blood/Fire: Blood Boil & Hellfire already exist
Blood in general: Blood 1 mages can all bloodhunt. That alone makes them special and good, so they don't necessarily need any combat capability. Besides, they can always summon imps.

Gifts from Heaven: I think this is Earth/Astral, not Astral/Earth.

Earth/Death: one or the other could be damage spell that only works against inanimates (if that can be done). Kind of Dust to Dust, but also works against constructs.

Burnsaber

January 29th, 2009, 09:25 AM

It looks like, somehow, you confused me with Turin.

Blood/Fire: Blood Boil & Hellfire already exist
Blood in general: Blood 1 mages can all bloodhunt. That alone makes them special and good, so they don't necessarily need any combat capability. Besides, they can always summon imps.

Gifts from Heaven: I think this is Earth/Astral, not Astral/Earth.

Earth/Death: one or the other could be damage spell that only works against inanimates (if that can be done). Kind of Dust to Dust, but also works against constructs.

Sorry about the mixup. a Brainfart on my part.

Blood Thing: You're right. Still might be intresting to see more combat blood spells. I just made mutate (since it was easy)

Earth/Death: Yeah, I'll combine Fall of Muscle and Steel. Just because I have to. It appears that if you use a affect that's not in any vanilla spell (like causing "Lost an Arm" affliction, it's sort of "invisible" to the casting AI, it won't cast it even when scripted since the AI thinks that the spell doesn't do anything. So you'll have to combine a "vanilla" effect with a exotic one. Spell that causes "Weaknened" is not okay, but spell that causes Armor Destruction + "Weakened" is. I can't make a spell that targets only constucts, thought (you can only rule them out). So now I'm needing a D/E spell. Hmm.. it seems that yuo can cause "Starvation" by spell..

For the fatigue-reducing cloud, I was thinking you'd pretty much not be able to give it more than 1 point of fatigue reduction. This is what relief gives, but because of DRN rolls it can give more than that. Basically I was talking about a smaller scale relief spell, plus if you make it a cloud it can affect enemy units also. Path requirements would be something like air/nature, air/water, or water/nature. If you don't like the idea that's fine though.

That's a pretty good idea. Since troops move around the battlefield, it'll be hard to abuse. If I also make it heal troops, then AI will think of it as healing spell and target only wounded troops (Which means that it'll be hard to "cloud" your mages). The effect would quite similar to the spell "healing mists" so no N/A as path combo.

S/A: Heavenly Glow, Grant a unit (square, etc.) Awe.

A/D: Styxian Storm, puts up a Storm and drops clouds that Feeblemind anyone in them (MR negates).

A/S: Wrathful Descent, Stellar Cascades + lingering cloud that does AN lightning damage.

W/N: Ink Cloud, Underwater only, Poison damage + blind

Heavenly Glow: unfortunately, you can't give awe by spell.

Styxian Storm and Wrathful Descent: I gave some thoughts on the issue of battle enchanments, see the new Design Goals.

Ink Cloud: Quite nice, I like it. I'll make the blindness resistable by def, like earthquake ("can you close your eyes in time?")

Some ideas to fill your open slots:

A/S: Shield of the Heavens, adds twist fate & charged body in a large area.

F/E: Summon Magma Elemental, as a water elemental but 2 crush attacks + Flame Strike, some protection, fire immunity/cold vulnerability and weak fire shield but no trample.
Con- Requires new sprite

F/N: Corpus Annihilō (Latin: Body to Nothing) as soul slay/bone melter but also deals fire damage in a small area.

F/S: Daystar's Blessing, adding flaming weapon, heat radiation and fire immunity effects as a self-buff. If flaming weapon doesn't work (no other spell does it), then fire shield.

E/N: Elemental Warding, as resist elements nature buff but in a small area, large with gem cost.

Shield of the Heavens: I like the idea, but "reneweable" Twist Fate (especially with large AoE!) might be problematic. I can counteract that thought, I'll give hideously abysmal range so you can' rebuff your troops in comabt.

Summon Magma Elemental: Ok idea, but I really won't have time to graphics and mod 50+ spells! If someone gives me reasonably good and dominion-fitting graphics, I can make summon spell for them and it in the mod.

Corpus Annhilo: Awesome idea! It's a shame it can't be done. You can't do spell with "if", since #nextspell always goes off. This spell would be, if check fails and dude dies, do fire damage.

Daystar's Blessing: Intresting theme. I'll ponder this..

Elemental Warding: Nice work!

Endoperez

January 29th, 2009, 01:54 PM

The old "divine armanents" Dom:PPP bless effect might still be accessible. I think it would be +2 att, +2 def and flaming weapons, but the fire damage at least used to deal extra damage to undead. I don't know how much the new blessings replaced the old one and how much the old stuff was just left unused.

darloth

January 29th, 2009, 04:22 PM

Aezeal

January 29th, 2009, 10:50 PM

I'm pretty sure it should be possible to give all spell effects all sorts of ranges or targets that already exist in game

Burnsaber

January 30th, 2009, 12:27 AM

Is it possible to have cloud spells that trigger exotic effects? I was considering the N/E (or maybe E/N) spell Rampant Overgrowth, that makes a cloud spell that does very small or nil damage, but repeatedly entangles anything in it.

Yeah, I think that's possible. Your idea is now added to the list as "Gaia's Revenge".

The old "divine armanents" Dom:PPP bless effect might still be accessible. I think it would be +2 att, +2 def and flaming weapons, but the fire damage at least used to deal extra damage to undead. I don't know how much the new blessings replaced the old one and how much the old stuff was just left unused.

Hmm.. That would be a intresting buff. I can't see the effect in the Dr.P's spell lookup, thought. If someone would be willing to make a small code dive, the results could be intresting.

I'm pretty sure it should be possible to give all spell effects all sorts of ranges or targets that already exist in game

Yeah, lots of stuff is possible. If someone is intrested, download Dr.P's spell lookup here:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=36617&highlight=Spell+Lookup

Then open the "bitmask" - excel chart. There's a list of debuffs and buffs that you can mod.

And then some questions of my own:

-Does anyone know what are actual bonuses granted by the "unholy power" - effect?

-Does anyone the link to the MoD fix thread? The actual mod would also be useful. My forum search proved.. inefficient. I could probably make cloud spells by #copyspelling existing cloud spells, but knowing how it's really done would expand my options.

JimMorrison

January 30th, 2009, 04:53 AM

I love what you're doing here! It's something I've wanted to see for ages..... to justify cross-path mages of all flavors, and make randoms a bit more exciting. Anyway, I haven't read through everything yet, but I saw W+E was open, and I was inspired -

Deep Drowning

2W+1E, Alt 4, R= 25+,Dam= 20+AN (Fatigue damage only), AoE= 2+, NoE= 1, Prc= -2, UW++, MR

The caster animates the sand, silt, and muck of the seabed, swirling it around his foes until the murky sludge cakes their gills, sending the victims into terrible spasms of asphyxiation.

<3

Tifone

January 30th, 2009, 05:01 AM

I'll hope for this to become an enjoyable and balanced mod :) - The ideas are very good

Endoperez

January 30th, 2009, 07:53 AM

-Does anyone the link to the MoD fix thread? The actual mod would also be useful. My forum search proved.. inefficient. I could probably make cloud spells by #copyspelling existing cloud spells, but knowing how it's really done would expand my options.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=38359&highlight=mists+of+deception

It's by Twan. The effect is

#eff 9043

and the clouds stay in the battlefield for 9 turns, so it could be that +1000 to #eff creates a cloud.

I wonder what happens if a cloud spell uses #nextspell "flame eruption"? Will the cloud explode every turn? What about a cloud followed by Falling Frost, would it center on the cloud or would the cloud "cast" it and choose a target as normal?

Possible Earth/Air spell: has three low-precision effects, each casts an area buff around itself. It's like Legions of Steel, except that it covers an uneven area, and you get more effects with higher Earth (so the affected area scales up very fast).

Aezeal

January 30th, 2009, 03:14 PM

-Does anyone know what are actual bonuses granted by the "unholy power" - effect?

--> from THE MANUAL!!!!!! + 4 attack and +4 AP

Burnsaber

February 1st, 2009, 07:41 AM

from THE MANUAL!!!!!! + 4 attack and +4 AP

Oh, right. Forgot about that. Thanks for the info.

I wonder what happens if a cloud spell uses #nextspell "flame eruption"? Will the cloud explode every turn? What about a cloud followed by Falling Frost, would it center on the cloud or would the cloud "cast" it and choose a target as normal?

I have no idea, but it's sure to be entertaining. I won't likely test that since no spell in planning has to use that kind of effects.

Possible Earth/Air spell: has three low-precision effects, each casts an area puff around itself. It's like Legions of Steel, except that it covers an uneven area, and you get more effects with higher Earth (so the affected area scales up very fast).

Hmm.. possibly. It would take some time to write all those #nextspells. It has the sound of complexity for complexines's (is that a word?) sake.

I just noted that I'm having a bit of trouble writing the description. Just running them through a spellchecker doesn't make them well written. If someone with good skills in english grammar would like to be of assistance, it'd be sweet.

I'll be soon making the first release version. But I'll give it thread of it's own. I'll keep the spell list and non-bug-related discussion here.

llamabeast

February 1st, 2009, 08:27 AM

I'm very happy to be the spelling and grammar man. PM me when you've got a draft for me to read, and I'll go through it.

VedalkenBear

February 2nd, 2009, 10:26 PM

Just today reading the Astrapelagist's description in Bogarus gave me an idea for a spell.

Twice-Blasted Curse
AAS
Range: 30+
Damage: 5+ AN Lightning damage
Secondaryeffectalways: Curse

More or less, a less-powerful lightning bolt that also curses the target.

Edit: Hrm. I see that we already have an A/S spell. Perhaps the Anger of God, to mimic Wrath of God (global), should be moved to S/A? Or I can change this up:

Twice-Blasted Curse
SSA
Range: 30+
Effect: Curse (MR negates)
SecondaryEffect: 3 AN lightning damage

Also, for underwater...

Crushing Pressure
AW
Range: 35+
AoE: 1+
Damage: 12
SecondaryEffect: Fear(0)

Basically, a 'normal damage' attack that can also do Fear, only allowed underwater. Should be extremely effective against common underwater chaff.

Edit2: Oh yes, and I see in the original post we have a "Fall Winds" spell, and an "Autumn Winds" spell. Shouldn't the healing one be "Spring Winds"?

Burnsaber

February 3rd, 2009, 02:00 PM

I'm very happy to be the spelling and grammar man. PM me when you've got a draft for me to read, and I'll go through it.

Thank you.

Just today reading the Astrapelagist's description in Bogarus gave me an idea for a spell.

Twice-Blasted Curse
AAS
Range: 30+
Damage: 5+ AN Lightning damage
Secondaryeffectalways: Curse

More or less, a less-powerful lightning bolt that also curses the target.

Edit: Hrm. I see that we already have an A/S spell. Perhaps the Anger of God, to mimic Wrath of God (global), should be moved to S/A? Or I can change this up:

Twice-Blasted Curse
SSA
Range: 30+
Effect: Curse (MR negates)
SecondaryEffect: 3 AN lightning damage

Also, for underwater...

Crushing Pressure
AW
Range: 35+
AoE: 1+
Damage: 12
SecondaryEffect: Fear(0)

Basically, a 'normal damage' attack that can also do Fear, only allowed underwater. Should be extremely effective against common underwater chaff.

Edit2: Oh yes, and I see in the original post we have a "Fall Winds" spell, and an "Autumn Winds" spell. Shouldn't the healing one be "Spring Winds"?

Unfortunately, I've done both A/S and S/A spell. But that could work as a S/F spell. I've added "Cursed by Flame" to the list.

I'll also change the spell in one minor way. I'll make the curse the major effect and the damage secondary. Thus the unit will get cursed first and the receive damage -> making him likely to receive afflictions. Synergy man, synergy!

I also added your UW combat spell, what could you explain the reason for air magic? I could see it as a pure water spell.

VedalkenBear

February 3rd, 2009, 03:28 PM

JimMorrison

February 3rd, 2009, 03:49 PM

My spell was inspired by Sailors' Death as well, but the post seems to have been glossed over.....

Burnsaber

February 3rd, 2009, 04:02 PM

Err... isn't Astral Fire S/F? Do you really need another one? Synergy is all well and good, but balance is also rather useful at times. My second Twice-Blasted Curse was designed in the 'synergistic' way you propose. If you want something _really_ evil, you could do

Cursed Barb
NS
Nbr of Effects: 1+
Range: 30+ (or so)
Damage: 15 + curse
Secondary Effect: Strong/Death Poison

If each 'tick' of poison damage has a separate chance of giving Afflictions, this could rack them up in no time.

The UW spell was originally designed to be the exact opposite of Sailor's Death; that is, fill the 'gills' of Aquatic troops with Air. That is why it would be AW. Unfortunately, I don't know of a way to target just Aquatic troops, so the spell was reconcepted to use expanding air in water to create the same kind of shockwave that can occur on land (such as from lightning strikes).

Could it be just Water? Sure, but Water already has enough tricks for Underwater.

Cursed Barbs is a sweet idea, I like the way our dicussions seem to go. My orginal idea for N/S combo wouldn't have worked anyway.

That Air explanation is a bit of stretch, it would probably be better if I didn't have to explain the spells physics in the description test. Yeah, and you can't make a spell that targets only amphibians, you can only exclude them (like constructs).

Earthquake is resistable by def, I know that. But anyone know the number it tests against? I was thinking of making a "quicksand" spell for W/E that'd instakill and be resisted by def and wondering if it could be balanced.

llamabeast

February 3rd, 2009, 04:44 PM

Earthmeld + Quicksand = DOOM!

VedalkenBear

February 3rd, 2009, 07:00 PM

Burn: Wait, you can exclude a certain type of monster from an effect? Then can you exclude amphibious creatures from an UW-only spell? That would 95% of the effect of an aquatic-only spell, no? You could name the spell 'Sailor's Revenge', in that case. ;)

Jim: Ah, no, I did see your spell, but I think I saw mine from a flavor perspective, while yours is more from a mechanical perspective. Sailor's Death uses Water to suffocate land units; your spell uses Earth to suffocate water units. Same effect. Mine was more of a literal inversion of the effect. Sailor's Death turns air into water. My spell turns water into air.

JimMorrison

February 3rd, 2009, 10:40 PM

Hehehe. No I didn't mean that you didn't see my spell, but that Burnsaber seemed to have missed it. ;)

Also mine does fatigue damage from asphyxiation, rather than physical damage. Though, it should be changed to AP rather AN, if it is to be used, or the damage lowered a little.

I like yours, too. I am imagining sudden, explosive expansion of the dissolved gasses in the water, dramatically compressing the water itself, and anything in it. None too realistic of course, but it's "magic". :D

(PS- I didn't ignore your request for another avatar change, I just wanted to give my baby his 15 minutes of fame before replacing him. :p)

Burnsaber

February 4th, 2009, 12:53 AM

Burn: Wait, you can exclude a certain type of monster from an effect? Then can you exclude amphibious creatures from an UW-only spell? That would 95% of the effect of an aquatic-only spell, no? You could name the spell 'Sailor's Revenge', in that case. ;)

Underwater spell that targets only non-amphibians (targeting those who breath by using items) is possible, but I think that getting underwater is hard enough even without some "smite landlubbers"-spell.

Earthmeld + Quicksand = DOOM!

Err.. True. So that if I made the Quicksand spell, you could kill any SC by that combo. Back to the drawing board, then.

Hehehe. No I didn't mean that you didn't see my spell, but that Burnsaber seemed to have missed it. ;)

Also mine does fatigue damage from asphyxiation, rather than physical damage. Though, it should be changed to AP rather AN, if it is to be used, or the damage lowered a little.

I invite you to read the whole "spells to be added" list. There is a section for UW only combat spells. Your's there. I just haven't given it stats much thought yeat, I just copypasted your suggestion.

It's good in the way that you could see affecting both naturally amphibious and those who breath by magic items.

JimMorrison

February 4th, 2009, 05:17 AM

Burnsaber

February 4th, 2009, 02:30 PM

Ahah! I didn't notice that subsection. Is that because you want to give UW spells extra attention (since there are so few), or because you don't want them to count towards the total, so that all land mages get extra spells for each combo?

If the latter, I think I might sit down in a bit and brainstorm some goodies, for the land path combos that are still open - and try to throw in several water spells as well, because trying to develop combat magic as a water nation is kind of lame presently.

<3

The latter. I don't want them to count towards the total. The lack of crosspath combat spells and the lack of UW combat spells are separate issues.

It now seems that about 30% crosspath spells I'll be doing will be castable UW. It helps, but better be safe than sorry, since the path combos for them are totally random. How many UW nations have D/F mage for example? Besides it might be kinda lame that someone who would download this mod so his favourite E/W mage would have more stuff to cast. And then he notices that the E/W spell is UW only. Kinda downer?

Trumanator

February 4th, 2009, 07:15 PM

I don't see an efficient SC killer as a necessarily bad thing honestly. It would encourage more variety.

Burnsaber

February 5th, 2009, 01:45 AM

I don't see an efficient SC killer as a necessarily bad thing honestly. It would encourage more variety.

Efficient, yeah, not a bad thing. Completely unresistable combo? That's just broken, plain and simple. Since there is no resistance check against Earth Hold the SC will automatically reduced to 0 def and then the "Quicksand" spell hits (Oh, you'll have to roll 15+ on DNR or die, good luck). It's just cheesy and anti-climatic ending for a Seraph SC, for example.

I just checked the list, and there will be some new ways to combat SC's and thugs. Just to name a few;

A/S Anger of God, unresistable, undodgable physical damage against sacreds (not AN thought, so having very high prot will help)

N/F Curse of the Salamander (if not fire resistant)

E/A Boulder Barrage: If you have a high stenght caster, those boulders will really bring on the pain if they are thrown on a single target. (good against non-shielded targets, since the boulders can be parried)

N/E Gaia's revenge: If the target in the cloud is not quickened, it won't be able to move until the effect ends. (you'd better have high precision on the caster though)

N/S Cursed Barbs: Entagles (always useful), Curses (yeah!) and the poison damage the guy will take each turn is likely to cause afflictions when he is cursed.

D/S Curse of the Four Horsemen: This spell won't kill the target outright, but the effects are nasty. Since there a four separate MR checks, with some penetration, some are bound to get through even high MR.

VedalkenBear

February 5th, 2009, 06:05 PM

Burnsaber

February 6th, 2009, 01:45 PM

Burn: Ah, I didn't intend for Cursed Barbs to be an Entangle effect. It was more patterned off of Vine Arrow than Tangle Vines. Honestly, it was meant to be an analog of Iron Darts, etc. But hey, whatever works for you.

For S/W...

Waters of Insane Clarity
Range: 20+
Fat: 40-
Prec: -2
Area of Effect: 1+
NoE: 1+
Effect: Grants Luck, Etherealness, Madness(5), and Cursed.
Underwater-only
(Note: This can affect enemies.)

Steamvault
FW
Range: 10+
AoE: 2+
Damage: 2+ (AN)
SecondaryEffect: Haste
Underwater-only

Oh, when I thought of barbs, I just immediately thought of barded vines. Entangling and poison damage! Sweet Synergy, Batman! Well, something good can happen from misunderstandings.

Waters of Insane Clarity: You can't give madness through spell. Does R'lyeh have any as nationals? If it does, I could try to do some #copyspell magic. I just did a double-edged buff-spell with the "might hurt your own guys theme", thought (see N/F spell "Release Inner Beast"). But since this theme is unexplored in vanilla, there could be more of these. Granting Ethrealness and Luck is quite powerful and would need to bring in some real pain to be balanced. Cursed won't cut it thought, it's a nuicanse, not a drawback.

Steamvault: Creating steam in UW would likely create a hot air bubble and that damages opponents, but why does it give Haste? I like the concept, thought. A damage spell that buff's opponents if they manage to survive. You have given me a lot to ponder..

rdonj

February 6th, 2009, 03:07 PM

Waters of Insane Clarity: You can't give madness through spell. Does R'lyeh have any as nationals? If it does, I could try to do some #copyspell magic. I just did a double-edged buff-spell with the "might hurt your own guys theme", thought (see N/F spell "Release Inner Beast"). But since this theme is unexplored in vanilla, there could be more of these. Granting Ethrealness and Luck is quite powerful and would need to bring in some real pain to be balanced. Cursed won't cut it thought, it's a nuicanse, not a drawback.

You could make the luck and ethereal mr negates, and/or horror mark...

Aezeal

February 6th, 2009, 09:51 PM

hmm I'd just say keep the AoE small (1) and keep it fairly high on the research end and high fatigue (80) so it can't really be used as a self buff for a SC without ruining his own combat abilities. Or make it AoE 3-5 and make it cost a gem.

Or make it (1/2) BF and cost 5 gems (no better not do this still overpowered .. though maybe as level 9 spell with high requirement in path (6)...

Hey you know what I think would be nice. A spell to give ALL units (yours and enemy all BF) high strenght, high armor and high att, def (is that possible?) so all troops will be more equal (stoneskin sort of caps in the end) ti will end up in a massacre where elites aren't as elite anymore will be fun. Also SC would be hurt more easily and be less important for that battle at least.

A high end fire earth spell I'd say.

Aezeal

February 6th, 2009, 09:56 PM

Burnsaber

February 7th, 2009, 04:22 AM

Steamvault: Creating steam in UW would likely create a hot air bubble and that damages opponents, but why does it give Haste? I like the concept, thought. A damage spell that buff's opponents if they manage to survive. You have given me a lot to ponder..

---> wouldnt'it be more like a self buff that damages.. 2 damage isn't that much.. haste would be worth that I think especially underwater with out ranged combat. I'd not use that spell on the enemy I think (script the effect switched around or they might cast it as a damage spell.. (no idea how the AI works with spell like this though..))

With 2+ damage and AoE 2+? So that the more skilled mage you have the more likely this "buff" spell is to kill your own troops? I'm not sure I agree.

The AI working on spells is pretty straightforward. It reads the main spell code and figures out on that what the spell does. It does not care what the nextspells do. If I have a damage spell that has #nextspell buff, the will think that it's a pure damage spell. If I have a buff spell that has damage spell as #nextspell, the AI will think of it as a buff spell. That's why these spells need to cost gems, so that the AI doesn't cast a buff-damage spell over and over on your troops, killing them.

It's quite annoying really. I'm not really limited by the modding tools, they're quite excellent. The casting AI is my worst enemy on this project. For Example, let's take "Enforce Natural Order" a "Dust to Dust"-type spell that damages also Demons and Magical Beings. Should be easy, right? Brrrrr, wrong answer! Since you can't make a spell that targets Only Undead, Only Demons and Only Magical Beings you need to nextspell 3 effects. But the AI will only target based on the first one! If I make the demonsmiting spell first, the AI will refuse to cast it if the enemy army has no demons to target (even if there are like over 1000 undead). What I have now is a makeshift workaround, until I figure out something better. I'm thinking of making it battlefield wide (affecting like 5-10% of squares in the battlefield).

Hey you know what I think would be nice. A spell to give ALL units (yours and enemy all BF) high strenght, high armor and high att, def (is that possible?) so all troops will be more equal (stoneskin sort of caps in the end) ti will end up in a massacre where elites aren't as elite anymore will be fun. Also SC would be hurt more easily and be less important for that battle at least.

A high end fire earth spell I'd say.

Yeah, spells to make chaff more useful could be nice, that's why I try to keep my buff AoE's as large as possible. But this mod is about those A1N2S1 mages who have really don't anything more to contribute in combat than a N2 mage. High end spells with high path reguiements won't help them.

But that's a nice mechanic, I'll also make the buffs MR negates (so that those pisky elites, mages and SC's would be rarely affected, Long live Cavemen!). Now I just need a theme. Why/How would all the soldiers in the battlefield be buffed?

Aezeal

February 7th, 2009, 10:05 PM

Blood for the Bloodgod. All troops get battlecrazed and blessed by Khorne and fight with more strenght than ever (also put a BF wide berserk in it is SWEET so ALL TROOPS WILL FIGHT TILL THEY DIE, and chaff will be more more on par with elites and SC.) ow and don't make it MR negates then so everyone will really fight till the death (no fleeing sc's :D).

I'm thinking blood or fire blood, or blood nature.
5 gems and 5 in path needed to cast. (or blood/holy since it's somewhat religious in nature) (or Blood for the wargod and make it holy/fire)(Or blood for the deathgod and make it D/H) or Primeval power and let it be nature :D

no it's not for those useless crosspaths but.. whatever :D
personally I think those worthless leftovers from training mages to get the right combination of paths (usually get a high number in one of their paths) should be worthless else the balance will be ruined. Instead of 75% worthless mages a nation will get 100% usefull battlemages.. balance will be gone..

but that is probably not what you want to hear in this thread :D

Maraxus

February 7th, 2009, 11:01 PM

"All troops will go berserk" sounds like a mage-killer.

Burnsaber

February 8th, 2009, 06:17 AM

Blood for the Bloodgod...
...
no it's not for those useless crosspaths but.. whatever :D
personally I think those worthless leftovers from training mages to get the right combination of paths (usually get a high number in one of their paths) should be worthless else the balance will be ruined. Instead of 75% worthless mages a nation will get 100% usefull battlemages.. balance will be gone..

but that is probably not what you want to hear in this thread :D

Actually, that is excatly the stuff I want to hear. Criticism is always good to hear. If I didn't listen to critics, I'd be nothing but a mere troll.

But I'm kinda confused by your argument. Are you saying that a nation can only have 1-2 useful battlemages and rest have to be crap? This mod doesn't allow you to recruit any more mages than normally, you just might be sometimes tempted to recruit Celestial Masters for their combat ability (seriously, in vanilla, they're just researchers and item forgers, in combat they're W2 mages.. Now that's seriously lame for 6 pick mage).

Besides, all of my spell are mid and low level, since I don't want to touch the late-game balance, not even with a 10-foot laser pole. It's a castle made of cardboard and make-believe. Your E4 mages are still awesome, even if there happens to be some more cross-path spells.

Like Maraxus said, EVERYTHING GOING BERSERK WITHOUT SAVING THROWS IS UNBALANCED. That sounds like a spell for Chaos warhammer mod. Besides, there already is that nature spell that makes units go berserk. But I made this based on our discussion. Astral weapons makes melee weapons AN.

S/N: Blessings of Fortuna: The caster calls for the god of fortune to meddle with outcome of the battle. She will bless some troops on the battlefield by powerful astral protections. The caster has no power over who the Fortuna decides to bless, but she is known to take liking to helping the meek underdogs to prevail against powerful foes. Or the other way around. (battlefield wide, affects both enemy and opponent, costs a gem, MR easily negates!, gives Astral Weapons, Luck, and Twist Fate)

Since it's MR negates easily, it's most powerful when you have a chaff horde and the opponent just has some elite high mr troops.

Aezeal

February 8th, 2009, 08:16 AM

VedalkenBear

February 8th, 2009, 11:38 AM

Aezeal: You have hit exactly on what I was trying to illustrate: specifically, that Steamvault can be either a buff or a debuff depending on what you need.

The Insanity one was also in the same vein; if I have magic weapons, what do I care if I give my opponent etherealness? Etc. etc.

For another spell with a 'drawback', try

Quickening Venom
NW
Range: 20+
AoE: 5+
Effect: Cloud that grants Quickness to those within it.
SecondaryEffect: Poison (Probably at least Strong)

For a high-level alternate...

Shocking Rage
NNNAA
Effect: Whole Battlefield, every unit gains Berserk(+2)
SecondaryEffect: Battlefield-wide 1 AN lightning damage.

Burnsaber

February 8th, 2009, 02:43 PM

hmmm that one is nice too.. but berserk would make sure one army would be gone in the end.. and that is fun :D.. maybe berserk but with MR negates then.. so you loose some of your mages but the other still do something. And lets be fair with spells like MoD, SHimmering fields, MASTER ENSLAVE, undead mastery etc etc you can't really call any army killing spell overpowered... this one will hurt your army too remember.

btw your spell is also very powerfull and having that as midrange spell will still be.. game changing.. late game too, only now it starts earlier :D This because you can easily make and army that takes full benefit of it (and it will be cheap) when opponents will only get 50% or less benefit... at least my idea was less about buffing yourself :D

Yeah, I made it bit less good. It now covers only 25% of the battlefield.

X2 ---------- 3S1N: Blessings to the Meek: The caster calls for the god of fortune to meddle with outcome of the battle. She will bless some troops on the battlefield by powerful astral protections and the ability to always strike on the opponents weak spot. The caster has no power over who the Fortuna decides to bless, but she is known to take liking to helping the meek underdogs to prevail against powerful foes. (Affects both enemy and opponent, costs a gem, MR easily negates, gives Astral Weapons (all weapons get AN), and Luck)
Alt lev 6, Fat:100 (1 gem), AoE: 25% of the battlefield, MR++, UW+

Aezeal: You have hit exactly on what I was trying to illustrate: specifically, that Steamvault can be either a buff or a debuff depending on what you need.

Actually, that's not possible.

The AI working on spells is pretty straightforward. It reads the main spell code and figures out on that what the spell does. It does not care what the nextspells do. If I have a damage spell that has #nextspell buff, the will think that it's a pure damage spell. If I have a buff spell that has damage spell as #nextspell, the AI will think of it as a buff spell.

Quickening Venom
NW
Range: 20+
AoE: 5+
Effect: Cloud that grants Quickness to those within it.
SecondaryEffect: Poison (Probably at least Strong)

That is very good idea. Nice theme and mechanic. I have a N/W spell already, thought. Screw that. I'm making this, I hereby evoke the master rule of Awesome!*

Shocking Rage
NNNAA
Effect: Whole Battlefield, every unit gains Berserk(+2)
SecondaryEffect: Battlefield-wide 1 AN lightning damage.

Global berserking is kinda covered by that N spell. Besides I already have N/A spell.

* = Master rule of awesome can break all other rules in the name of awesome

JimMorrison

February 8th, 2009, 03:06 PM

* = Master rule of awesome can break all other rules in the name of awesome

So the Master Rule of Awesome could create a F/S spell like Howl or School of Sharks, that spawns hordes of kittens, instead? :o

Aezeal

February 8th, 2009, 04:37 PM

Astral fire kittens to the rescue!!!! But they'd have to be miniature giant space hamsters.

Go for the eyes Boo, GO FOR THE EYES!! RrraaaAAGHGHH!!!

Butt-kickin' for goodness!

Make way evil! I'm armed to the teeth and packing a hamster!

VedalkenBear

February 8th, 2009, 07:41 PM

Burnsaber: Oh, it's possible, but not from an AI perspective. The deviation of a spell is dependent on both the range of the spell and its precision, correct? Thus, what's to stop

Curse of Avalon
AAN
Range: 30
Prec: -10 (very important)
AoE: 10
Effect: Grants Luck (MR negates easily)
Secondaryeffectalways: Curse (no MR)

Sure, the computer will try to use this as a buff, not a debuff... but what if the computer can't target it more than a 'general area'? My experience is that in 'large battles' the spell will overlap offensive and defensive lines at times.

Once you get the computer to cast it, you can tune the precision of the spell to hit in the general area without always hitting the people you want.

Oh, also... is there any way to get a Battlefield Enchantment version of Haunted Forest?

Burnsaber

February 9th, 2009, 09:43 AM

[QUOTE=Burnsaber;673167]
So the Master Rule of Awesome could create a F/S spell like Howl or School of Sharks, that spawns hordes of kittens, instead? :o

The following response is so awesome, you need to roll awe morale check just read it. Advance with caution

Yeah, it's awesome, so it is possible. It also could be possible to make it its awesome landlubber counterpart (S/F), which bordersummons awesome T-Rexes on even more awesome fighter jets, awesomely accompanied by the whole League of Justice and the Watchmen. Unfortunatly my awesomthurgy is bit rusty and I can't make the requied monster sprites into existence by sheer force of will.

Only ones awesome enough for that kind of awesomthurgy magicks are Batman and Dr.McNinja.

Aezeal: Ahh.. the memories.. BG2 was awesome.

Burnsaber: Oh, it's possible, but not from an AI perspective. The deviation of a spell is dependent on both the range of the spell and its precision, correct? Thus, what's to stop

Curse of Avalon
AAN
Range: 30
Prec: -10 (very important)
AoE: 10
Effect: Grants Luck (MR negates easily)
Secondaryeffectalways: Curse (no MR)

Sure, the computer will try to use this as a buff, not a debuff... but what if the computer can't target it more than a 'general area'? My experience is that in 'large battles' the spell will overlap offensive and defensive lines at times.

Once you get the computer to cast it, you can tune the precision of the spell to hit in the general area without always hitting the people you want.

Mechanic is pretty cool, but theme seems like a LA man national spell. Perhaps I'll manage to have same kind of mechanic some of the missing spell combos.

Oh, also... is there any way to get a Battlefield Enchantment version of Haunted Forest?

Didn't that revive all dead troops as manikins on your side? It might be possible, but I don't how the game would respond when you cast the battlefield version when you have the global active too.

llamabeast

February 9th, 2009, 10:30 AM

Burnsaber

February 9th, 2009, 11:13 AM

I think you shouldn't make this mod into a "good spells with bad side effects/bad spells with good side effects" mod by accident. There's potential for cool ideas there, but I think it should be a minority of spells at most.

Thanks for the reality check. I gotta remember to keep the Vanilla favour. Currently there's two of them going into the mod (Trial by Fire F/S, Quickening Venom N/W), and one already done (F/N Release Inner Beast) that should be enough.

I just realized. I'm 8 spells ahead scheducle! If I manage to continue at this space, I should have the mod done by the end of month. Hopefully I (or some helpful soul :hint:) will figure something for the missing slots before I get the all of the currently planned spells done.

Oh look, someone listed the missing paths combinations. How convenient!
F/A, W/E, W/S, S/E, D/E, D/W

VedalkenBear

February 9th, 2009, 11:40 AM

Okay, I had spells listed, but then lost them. Here I go again.

Clinging Fumes
FA
Range: 20+
AoE: 1+
Prec: 2
Fatigue: 30-
Damage: 5+ (AP, Fire), 20+ stun (AN, no lifeless)
Secondaryeffect: FR -25

W/E Summon Clayman, or

Bog Down
WE
Range: 30+
AoE: 1+ (cloud)
Prec: 0
Fatigue: 50-
Damage: 10 (Poison)
SecondaryEffect: Earth Meld

W/S

Celestial Ice
WS
Range: 35+
NoE: 5+
Attack: One person
Damage: 3 AP (x3 vs. Undead, Demon, Magic), 10 AP Frost

More later, perhaps.

Burnsaber

February 10th, 2009, 11:13 AM

I'll start with some bad news, see this spell?

X3 ---------- 2N1E - Gaia's Revenge: The caster enchants some patches of land with the wildly rejuvenating powers of the Gaia. Cloud spell that consistently entangles those in inside. (thanks to darloth for the idea)
Ench lev 5, R:20+, Fat:60, AoE:1, NoE:2+, prec:-3, cloud stays on the field for 3 turns, UW+

I have made it and it works, but my testing shows that even quickened troops are unable to escape once stuck inside! I don't know why, but that's the way it seems. I might have tp scrap this then, since anything completely unresistable holds the seed of brokeness. Two N/E mages could hold any SC indefinately still and paralyzed by just this spell. Any opinions?

Okay, I had spells listed, but then lost them. Here I go again.
Clinging Fumes
FA
Range: 20+
AoE: 1+
Prec: 2
Fatigue: 30-
Damage: 5+ (AP, Fire), 20+ stun (AN, no lifeless)
Secondaryeffect: FR -25

Unfortunately you can't mod that secondaryeffect. You can do those which are already in the game. Only way to reduce fire resistance is to give the unit barkskin.

W/E Summon Clayman, or

Bog Down
WE
Range: 30+
AoE: 1+ (cloud)
Prec: 0
Fatigue: 50-
Damage: 10 (Poison)
SecondaryEffect: Earth Meld

Heh, nasty. But I already have Gaia's Revenge. I'll probably do the Clayman summon.

Celestial Ice
WS
Range: 35+
NoE: 5+
Attack: One person
Damage: 3 AP (x3 vs. Undead, Demon, Magic), 10 AP Frost

I already have quite a lot of undead hate in this mod. "Enforce Natural Order" and the best buffs (The "Seasonal winds", "Inner Beast", etc..) are non-undead only. In vanilla thought, there are few sacred hate spells. Perhaps that's one of the reasons why early sacred rushes are so powerful? But thanks for bringing the word "celestial" up, since that made figure this out:

Celestial Waters 1W1S - The caste conjures some enchanted water from the celestal planes. This water is quite refreshing and tastes good to regular mortals, but if it touches a fanatical servant of a false pretender god, it will burn her like thousand hells. (very low level, small aoe, does some AN damage vs sacreds)

More later, perhaps.

Thanks and please, keep them going.

I also kept thinking on the sacred hate issue, and now I find myself wondering if I should do a H2 "smite sacreds" spell (just like smite, but on sacreds only). I know it is outside the jurisdiction of this mod, but it seems like a thematic and not too powerful way to try to fend off an early sacred rush.

llamabeast

February 10th, 2009, 11:22 AM

llamabeast

February 10th, 2009, 11:23 AM

Yeah, my feeling is that probably you should leave out overarching balance attempts, like "nerf sacred rushes". That's really down to QM and CBM, and if you feel his efforts aren't sufficient you could always make a bonus mini-mod with an anti-sacred spell.

VedalkenBear

February 10th, 2009, 03:15 PM

Burn: We can't actually give resistances? How awful. That would give us so many more tools....

The reason that the Ice spell has two damage components, with one that does 'extra' damage to Undead, is so that it can actually hurt them... rather like Astral Fire is the only Fire that burns underwater, I wanted Celestial Ice to be the only type of Ice that can hurt Undead.

D/W

Stygian Flow
DW
Range: 40+
AoE: 1+
Effect: Feeblemind

llamabeast

February 10th, 2009, 06:37 PM

You can give resistances (in chunks of 50 or 100%), but you can't take them away, because there are no spells like that in vanilla.

Most vanilla spell effects can't be modified. So, you can give +4 MR (like Antimagic), but you can't give +3 or any other value.

Aezeal

February 10th, 2009, 08:31 PM

You could make the Gaia spell MR-negates. I'm not quite sure what the justification would be, but it would make it more reasonable. A crazy thing you could add to it would be summoning of some vinemen as well. As in, the vegetation comes alive, some of it grabbing the enemies and some of it forming vinemen to finish them off.

good idea combining a buff witha summon or a damage spell with a summon.. at leat one should be in and this might be the best option. :D

Aezeal

February 10th, 2009, 08:33 PM

or just summons.. summons are nice and decent battle magic and a bit overlooked till now.. don't knwo which paths you are missing but summons shoudl fill at least 2-3 spells. Especially in the paths which already have decent combat spells a summoning would add more than just another damage spell.

Burnsaber

February 11th, 2009, 08:10 AM

I don't believe sacred rushes are now considered overpowered, are they? I'm not sure.

You could make the Gaia spell MR-negates. I'm not quite sure what the justification would be, but it would make it more reasonable. A crazy thing you could add to it would be summoning of some vinemen as well. As in, the vegetation comes alive, some of it grabbing the enemies and some of it forming vinemen to finish them off

You might be right, I haven't seen anyone complaining about it for the last month. Stradegy Guides seem to have switches the tactis people use. Perhaps I'm still traumatized by my first MP game?

Nice idea with the vineman summoning. I can imagine some fat mage going like, "I can't be bothered to both tie and beat them up, why can't the spell do it for me?".

Yeah, my feeling is that probably you should leave out overarching balance attempts, like "nerf sacred rushes". That's really down to QM and CBM, and if you feel his efforts aren't sufficient you could always make a bonus mini-mod with an anti-sacred spell.

I thought about this, and it seems that I've got yet another future project coming. As a side effect of figuring out spell ideas for this mod, I've got like dozen ideas for crosspath holy spells. Once I've cleared my other projects*, I'll start doing a "Priestly Domination" mod, to give priestly magic some extra "oomph".

I don't believe sacred rushes are now considered overpowered, are they? I'm not sure.

Burn: We can't actually give resistances? How awful. That would give us so many more tools....

The reason that the Ice spell has two damage components, with one that does 'extra' damage to Undead, is so that it can actually hurt them... rather like Astral Fire is the only Fire that burns underwater, I wanted Celestial Ice to be the only type of Ice that can hurt Undead.

D/W

Stygian Flow
DW
Range: 40+
AoE: 1+
Effect: Feeblemind

Oh, you meant it as a twin to Astral Flames? Oh, now I get it. I'll move the "celestial waters" to the future priest mod and take the celestial ice on the mod.

Stygian Flow: Proably MR resists, right? I'm having the oddest compulsion to intentionally mispell it as Styxian Flow :D

You could make the Gaia spell MR-negates. I'm not quite sure what the justification would be, but it would make it more reasonable. A crazy thing you could add to it would be summoning of some vinemen as well. As in, the vegetation comes alive, some of it grabbing the enemies and some of it forming vinemen to finish them off.

good idea combining a buff witha summon or a damage spell with a summon.. at leat one should be in and this might be the best option. :D

Llamabeast beat you to it.

or just summons.. summons are nice and decent battle magic and a bit overlooked till now.. don't knwo which paths you are missing but summons shoudl fill at least 2-3 spells. Especially in the paths which already have decent combat spells a summoning would add more than just another damage spell.

Oh, there is actually 2 of them in them in the 0.2 (W/N summon kokytiads and D/N animate manikins) and the Clayman battle summon will likely be 0.3

* In order of completion:
- Mapping of explsprites and flightsprites
- CPCS and starting a MP game with it.
- Updating Alugra and starting a MP game with it.

llamabeast

February 11th, 2009, 08:34 AM

llamabeast

February 11th, 2009, 08:36 AM

VedalkenBear

February 11th, 2009, 12:45 PM

Burn: Actually, the Styg(x)ian Waters spell was directly intended to _not_ have MR resists. Yes, it's meant to be a mage-killer.

Any way we can actually 'silence' casters for a combat?

Burnsaber

February 11th, 2009, 03:49 PM

I have to say by the way, this mod is looking great. Sorry I haven't gotten around to the grammar bug-hunting yet. I'm actually quite looking forward to it. When I do I'll probably produce a bazillion comments and suggestions as well.

No rush. I'm currently working on the #explsprites and #Flightsprites, since mapping them will help me to make this mod just that small bit better. I think I really nailed "Curse of the Four Horsemen". It has very ominous combination of graphical effects. I'm so ahead of scheducle that I can dip on this kind of side project for a while (I have already mapped to 10180! I'll probably manage to release them in the weekned.

I'll gracefully accept any suggestions on themes and balance. I've mostly struggling to get the spells written in code, making them work and finding the right blingblings for them to do any real balance testing. Most of the current values are rough estimates :shock:

Burn: Actually, the Styg(x)ian Waters spell was directly intended to _not_ have MR resists. Yes, it's meant to be a mage-killer.

Any way we can actually 'silence' casters for a combat?

Curse you casting AI, curse you! You have once again foiled a great spell! The AI is too dumb to specifically target mages with that spell, it would most likely throw it against the highest HP target. Besides, Feeblemind is totally crippling affliction, it would destroy SC's on the spot. (I mean, loss of magic and -5 MR, ouch!). Way too powerful.

VedalkenBear

February 11th, 2009, 04:04 PM

Burn: I'm well aware of what effect Feeblemind has on SCs. That was the point.

I had an idea for a Blood/Astral combat spell, but I don't think it can be done. Can you create a spell that does 'Astral Corruption' for the length of a combat? That is, any non-Blood spell cast has a chance to call a Horror to the battle?

S/E

Spectral Blades
SE
Range: 40+
Fat: 30-
Prec: 1
NoE: 10+
Target: 1 person
Damage: 14 (AP, MR negates)
SecondaryEffect: Illusion-kill (whatever the effect of the Eye of the Void is)

Another option:

Summon Phantasmal Mammoth
SE (perhaps AE)
Range: 0
Fat: 80-
Effect: Battle-summon Phantasmal Mammoth

Phantasmal Mammoth
HP: 1
Prot: 0
Att/Def: 8
Mor: 15
MR: 13
Enc: 3
Size: 6
Graphic: Elephant
Ethereal, Trample

D/E

Blighted Troops
Range: 30+
Fat: 40-
AoE: 1+
Damage: 30+ (stun)
Secondaryeffect: Decay

Trumanator

February 11th, 2009, 07:36 PM

The phantasmal mammoth would be funnier if you could do MR-resists trample.

VedalkenBear

February 11th, 2009, 10:28 PM

Truman: True. However, I don't think you can do it unless you can type all of a unit's damage to MR resists.

Burnsaber

February 13th, 2009, 12:29 AM

I had a couple more ideas. I promised that I won't do any more of these buff-spells with drawbacks, but hear me out. Besides I'm scrapping the F/S debuff-buff spell and making it jsut a regular buff-spell, so I have "slots" for more!

S/E: Mind over Matter: The caster forcefully rips the bodies some of his troops from the material plane, halfway into the astral plane. This will make the troops ethereal and hard to hit by non-magical means. However, the affected will lose the benefit of any non-magical armor as it will just slide through their ethereal bodies. The plunge to the astral plane might also attract attention from horrors beyond the veil. (Grants ethereal but destroys armor and might horror mark (mr resists?))

There isn't any large AoE grant ethereal spell in the game. You can use "Body Ethereal", but you need a lot of mages. I wondering if I should scrap the horrormarking. I'm just thinking that this could be a dat too good with "army of lead", "army gold" and "protection" to ignore the penalty.

D/W: Baptism of Hades (needs a better name): The necromancer soaks some of his troops by water from the river Styx, the stream of dead souls from Hades. Like the legendary hero Achilles, the troops will get nigh unpenetrable skin, but the stream of the dead is fickle and will grant many weaknesses too. (Grants barkskin, stoneskin, ironskin and invulnerability, giving -50% FireRes, -50% FrostRes, -75% Shockres, -100% Poisonres)

Invulnerability is out of reach to normal troops in Vanilla, and for a good reason. But this might be a balanced way to introduce it. Any thoughts if I should actually make it better? The resistance maluses are pretty crippling. Especially late game.

Burn: I'm well aware of what effect Feeblemind has on SCs. That was the point.

Umm.. No? This is not a "balance" mod. Unresitable feeblemind is just no fun. And if I made it, it would jsut warp the late-game to revolve around that single spell.

I had an idea for a Blood/Astral combat spell, but I don't think it can be done. Can you create a spell that does 'Astral Corruption' for the length of a combat? That is, any non-Blood spell cast has a chance to call a Horror to the battle?

Yeah, it's not possible.

S/E

Spectral Blades
SE
Range: 40+
Fat: 30-
Prec: 1
NoE: 10+
Target: 1 person
Damage: 14 (AP, MR negates)
SecondaryEffect: Illusion-kill (whatever the effect of the Eye of the Void is)

If I decide to scrap Mind over matter, I'll probably do something like this. Illusion-kill is not possible however. But you just need 1 AN damge to nail those illusion(ed) bastards so a similar effect should be possible.

Another option:

Summon Phantasmal Mammoth
SE (perhaps AE)
Range: 0
Fat: 80-
Effect: Battle-summon Phantasmal Mammoth

Phantasmal Mammoth
HP: 1
Prot: 0
Att/Def: 8
Mor: 15
MR: 13
Enc: 3
Size: 6
Graphic: Elephant
Ethereal, Trample

I decided not to any new units in this mod. The advantage of not using any monsternumbers/nationnumbers/sitenumbers is so good, that I'm not going to give it up. This kind of mod is best when it's 100% non-clashing with any other mod. Want use these spells with Skaven? Tomb Kings? CBM? Go ahead!

D/E

Blighted Troops
Range: 30+
Fat: 40-
AoE: 1+
Damage: 30+ (stun)
Secondaryeffect: Decay

Hmm, slightly improved Ghost Grip. I like it.

Thank you guys! If you like the "Mind over Matter" and "Baptism of Hades", I should have all main spell slots filled! Now I just need 3 more UW combat spell, if they could be single path, that'd be awesome.

llamabeast

February 13th, 2009, 05:16 AM

Yeah, "Mind over Matter" and "Baptism of Hades" both seem potentially very powerful, but also they're pretty cool - I like them.

Aezeal

February 13th, 2009, 10:49 AM

what paths UW spells do you need?

rdonj

February 13th, 2009, 01:34 PM

I like mind over matter. I like the effect of baptism of hades, but I don't like the idea of dousing your units in water... every battle... to make someone invulnerable like achilles, who stayed that way until he died.

llamabeast

February 15th, 2009, 09:08 AM

When is v0.3 due Burnsaber? I thought I might make a start on the checking, but it might be easier to wait if the new version's nearly done.

Burnsaber

February 15th, 2009, 10:38 AM

When is v0.3 due Burnsaber? I thought I might make a start on the checking, but it might be easier to wait if the new version's nearly done.

It will be out tomorrow with 30+ spells.

Burnsaber

February 16th, 2009, 03:41 PM

All main spells done! Now I'll have to move my testing underwater.

So I came up with a cool idea for E/W. I'm just a bit afraid it might be unbalanced. Here it goes:

2E1W - Traveller's Curse: This spell will turn the land beneath the target in to a muddy sludge, trapping him waistdeep in oozing mire. Only when he escapes, will the victim realize the full scale of his curse. With each step the victim takes, the land under his feet will turn into this thrice-damned sludge. The cursed will have to struggle fiercly just to manage move and will be greatly hampered in combat. Unless the victim is magically reinvograted, he will eventually pass out from exhaustion. Throughout the ages, numereous heroes have been found after battle, having faced the humiliating defeat, drowned in a feet-deep puddle of mud.
Alt lev 5, R:20+, NoE: 1, Prec 10, Fat:50, UW-

I just really find myself liking the theme of this. Defeated by mud, that's just priceless.

So it Earth Grips, Slimes (halved att/def/AP) and gives Curse of Stone (moving causes d4 fatique points and striking d8 fatique points). This will pretty much screw anything without reinvogration. Perhaps I should make the Curse of Stone effect MR resists? Then it really won't affect anyone in the long run.

what paths UW spells do you need?

These are what we have currently. The paths or path combos should be those available to UW nations.

W: Crushing Pressure, some physical damage, frightens

N/W: Ink Strike, Poison damage + blind (resisted by def, like earthquake), Small AoE, inaccurate (thanks to Vedalkenbear )

D/W: Call Drowned, summon spirits of drowned sailors. (ghosts, in rule speak)

W/A (could be W/S): Chaotic Currents, the caster takes 'control' of powerful sea currents and tries to crush his opponent with them. Even if the target survives, struggling with the currents will have likely moved him somewhere else in the battlefield. Does some physical damage and blinks opponent.

2W1E Deep Drowning:
The caster animates the sand, silt, and muck of the seabed, swirling it around his foes until the murky sludge cakes their gills/lungs, sending the victims into terrible spasms of asphyxiation.
Alt 4, R= 25+,Dam= 20+AN (Fatigue damage only), AoE= 2+, NoE= 1, Prc= -2, UW++, MR

Yeah, "Mind over Matter" and "Baptism of Hades" both seem potentially very powerful, but also they're pretty cool - I like them.

Baptism of Hades had to be scrapped, apparently the lighting vulnerability from Ironskin overrides the frost vulnerability from stoneskin and that overrides fire vulnerability from barkskin. I made it a niche undead-healing spell since I had no other ideas. (waters from tartarus is pretty good, so your D/W mages can cast that).

VedalkenBear

February 17th, 2009, 08:35 AM

You want the UW spells to be for the UW nations? Hmm. I had thought you wanted them so that the land nations can compete better, but that's also good...

If they are meant to be for UW nations, then Chaotic Currents (which is a neat spell) should be W/S. I don't think any UW nation gets Air magic.

I don't think the Acid spells are allowed underwater, correct? If so, E/MA Atlantis could use a F/W spell.

Acid Muck
WF
Range: 30+
Fat: 40-
AoE: 1+
Effect: Rust (Def negates)
SecondaryEffect: Strong Poison

Polluted Stream
W/D
Range: 35+
Fat: 40-
AoE: 1+
Damage: Strong Poison
SecondaryEffect: Disease (MR negates)

As for balance issues... if these spells are used, then you're changing the balance. The size of the change may not be great, but you're still changing it. Therefore, I don't see where the issue is a problem, theoretically. I realize that I generally suggest much larger shifts, and it's perfectly fine to refuse them. I am a little puzzled by the categorical nature of the balance discussion.

Burnsaber

February 17th, 2009, 03:15 PM

You want the UW spells to be for the UW nations? Hmm. I had thought you wanted them so that the land nations can compete better, but that's also good...

Actually, I'm trying to fix the issue of seeing the same spells in underwater over and over again, but that is also a valid point. Why not do both, actually? Let's make sure that each magic path has easily castable UW combat spell, and then add some cross-path spells for the fun of it.

Let's see from the manual..

Air: Most of the lighting and illusion spells are castable underwater. Is OK, me things.

Astral: Loses only Stellar cascade types. Will be okay.

Blood: It must suck to be these guys underwater. I really feel that shark summons should be blood spells, but I'm not going to mess with vanilla spells. Let's leave this as it is.

Death: Loses some cloud spells, but retains Shadow Blast and it's ilk. Skelly spam still works.

Earth: Loses almost all of direct attack spells. I'll add one pure-earth UW spell. (Most likely crushing pressure, I'll fix the theme in spell description.)

Fire: Ouch. Ouch. It's a shame that vanilla has that useless "Boil" spell. Since I'm not going to mess with vanilla spells, I'll have to try to figure something out. I mean it's thematic for fire to suck underwater, but at least some decency!

Nature: Loses vine arrows and combat summons. I've given them a direct poison damage spell to compensate. A UW version of howl with underwater animals could also be thematic and hideously easy to make. Witness:

#newspell
#copyspell "Howl"
#name "UW Howl"
#damage "XX"
#spec "XX"
#end

Water: Will be okay, and most UW crosspaths will have it.

If they are meant to be for UW nations, then Chaotic Currents (which is a neat spell) should be W/S. I don't think any UW nation gets Air magic.

Yeah, it's neat. But the blinking effect will be annoying as hell, especially if it is massed by horde of mages. But my testing also shows it to be risky. That pesky ichtyid struggled himself right next to my mystic and pierced him. But W/S is much more thematic. I'll have to ponder this.

I don't think the Acid spells are allowed underwater, correct? If so, E/MA Atlantis could use a F/W spell.

Acid Muck
WF
Range: 30+
Fat: 40-
AoE: 1+
Effect: Rust (Def negates)
SecondaryEffect: Strong Poison

Thanks! Now I have my Fire UW spell. "Acidize" (note: name needs work) with pretty much similar effect. I mean, the water is already there, so it just needs some alteration by fire magics.

Polluted Stream
W/D
Range: 35+
Fat: 40-
AoE: 1+
Damage: Strong Poison
SecondaryEffect: Disease (MR negates)

I'll give this the same deal as the previous one. By death magic, you pollute water that's already there.

As for balance issues... if these spells are used, then you're changing the balance. The size of the change may not be great, but you're still changing it. Therefore, I don't see where the issue is a problem, theoretically. I realize that I generally suggest much larger shifts, and it's perfectly fine to refuse them. I am a little puzzled by the categorical nature of the balance discussion.

It's just that I'm not trying to change the actual game, just add more options in combat magic usage and give low-path mages more useful spells. Powerful spells "warp" the gameplay to revolve around themselves. The "auto-feeble" spell you suggested would have a single-handedly made the U/W mages most powerful mages ever. I admit that I'm doing some balance changes with this mod, notice how most buffing spells won't work on undead? Inanimates? Mindless? In there lies numereous popular SC chassises, unable to reap the benefits of this mod, perhaps allowing some new contenders in.

So umm.. I need a point. Yeah, I'm not going for a huge change, but for a small one. This mod won't make any excisting stragedy obsolete, but try to raise others on par with them. For example, I'm afraid that "Traveller's Curse" would be too strong against SC's, nulling that stragedy option and thus making the game that less stragedically richer.

llamabeast

February 17th, 2009, 04:15 PM

Do you really want land nations to be more powerful underwater? Is that a considered balance change that you think needs doing?

I am nervous of significant changes like that, because it makes the potential user base rather smaller. However, I'm prone to excessive caution in such things so feel free to take no notice. :)

llamabeast

February 17th, 2009, 04:22 PM

Actually I should mention I do like the fact that you're avoiding including buffs which may help Tartarians.

VedalkenBear

February 17th, 2009, 04:43 PM

It's just that I'm not trying to change the actual game, just add more options in combat magic usage and give low-path mages more useful spells. Powerful spells "warp" the gameplay to revolve around themselves. The "auto-feeble" spell you suggested would have a single-handedly made the U/W mages most powerful mages ever. I admit that I'm doing some balance changes with this mod, notice how most buffing spells won't work on undead? Inanimates? Mindless? In there lies numereous popular SC chassises, unable to reap the benefits of this mod, perhaps allowing some new contenders in.

I think you discard the dynamic nature of strategy in your assessment of the spell, but that's fine.

So umm.. I need a point. Yeah, I'm not going for a huge change, but for a small one. This mod won't make any excisting stragedy obsolete, but try to raise others on par with them. For example, I'm afraid that "Traveller's Curse" would be too strong against SC's, nulling that stragedy option and thus making the game that less stragedically richer.

My observation to you is that strategies become obsolete for any number of reasons, and obsoleting a strategy based on technology (such as this mod) is just as valid as obsoleting a strategy based on tactics or operational methods. Actually, in this instance, it is _more_ valid because it is consensual.

I could easily argue that the current end-game of Dominions being focused on SCs and large-scale battle magic makes many strategies non-competitive. If you can enable five strategies by disabling one... what do you choose, if your goal is to increase strategic variety?

JimMorrison

February 17th, 2009, 08:41 PM

I could easily argue that the current end-game of Dominions being focused on SCs and large-scale battle magic makes many strategies non-competitive. If you can enable five strategies by disabling one... what do you choose, if your goal is to increase strategic variety?

I'm fairly sure that an unresistable, fairly easily cast Feeblemind spell would pretty much effectively neuter the late game. You wouldn't be freeing up any strategies, you would be rendering -any- unit with less than 25 MR fairly obsolete, unless it specifically relies neither on MR, or casting ability (mundane recruitable infantry, here I come!).

VedalkenBear

February 17th, 2009, 09:08 PM

Jim: That's just it, though. I did say 'completely unresistable'; that is, nothing protects you.

Does it 'destroy' every current late-game strategy? AFAIK, yes, it does. However, look at the current end-game. There are only 2 effective late-game strategies that I am aware of: SC combat, and large-scale battle magic. If there is a spell that gets rid of those two, what will be left? Whatever was there before those strategies came into place. If those strategies are more numerous than the ones currently available (that is, if the deprecated strategies in the current regime are greater than 2), then this spell increases strategies.

However, realize this spell is a silver bullet, and a fairly obvious one. What we are talking about is a theoretical dynamic. I don't think the actual dynamic would change very much. Since it isn't that difficult to get a mage capable of casting this spell (Kokythiad) by the late game, everyone would have this spell. People would react and find other strategies that make this spell useless. Then this spell deprecates itself due to the nature of its narrow effect.

In the end, I am not pushing for this spell. I'm simply illustrating the possibilities, and noting that the current late-game paradigm is dominant to the point of paralyzing the player base. Is this really healthy?

JimMorrison

February 17th, 2009, 10:59 PM

In the end, I am not pushing for this spell. I'm simply illustrating the possibilities, and noting that the current late-game paradigm is dominant to the point of paralyzing the player base. Is this really healthy?

That's where we disagree. Yes, people push for late game power, and that power largely supplants the early game power. Rendering many late game options unusable, and forcing a return to early game techniques does not actually create anything, it just removes something that is demonstrably better than what it replaced, forcing reversion to the initial form.

I think that (myself included) more people would simply refuse to play in a game that had that spell available, than would jump for joy because it was there.

I simply cannot see any reason that it makes the game more fun to remove the MR check. If it were MR-resists, it is technically comparable in overall usefulness to Enslave Mind - a spell that is considered extraordinarily powerful in the game currently.

Another interesting idea, would be if it were a battlefield summons spell (can't have too many of those!), that created some "Spectral Archers" or some such, who came equipped with Bow of Botulf. Then you can fling around a bunch of Feeblemind, but it's not as directed or focused. I think this option would still be very potent, without making the most powerful endgame options suddenly completely worthless.

Burnsaber

February 18th, 2009, 12:33 AM

Actually I should mention I do like the fact that you're avoiding including buffs which may help Tartarians.

Yeah, what can I say. I guess I'm a vitalist*. Besides, death has the best summons already and skele spamming is very good battlefield stragedy and MA/LA ermor are powerful nations, why make them better?

Do you really want land nations to be more powerful underwater? Is that a considered balance change that you think needs doing?

I am nervous of significant changes like that, because it makes the potential user base rather smaller. However, I'm prone to excessive caution in such things so feel free to take no notice. :)

I kinda forgot to mention that spells I'm adding will be quite.. minor. Single path, low pathcost and low level attack spells. The idea is that all mages have something to cast in underwater battle. Let's see, "Ink Strike" is N1 spell that severly poisons single guy. Acidize will be F1 AoE 1 cloud spell that does 1 damage and rusts armor (the idea is that it will only rust armor on the first round and on the second round the armor will be destroyed by the attack if the target stays in the cloud). I'll probably make Morrison's "deep drowning" pure earth1 spell and low level, and limit targets to one. Not really that powerful spells, but readily available to all nations and mages.

What I think this will change? You will see some more spells flinked in underwater, especially in the early game where it hurts most. It's kinda nuts that you have reach Evo 4 before you can have your first direct damage spell. You know, unless you're R'lyeh, in which case, Thau 2 will work fine.

On the balance discussion:

Well, Vedalkenbear said it some time ago. He his going for a large balance change and I'm going for a very minor one. The stragedic theory being thrown around is quite intresting to read. Some of Vedalkenbear ideas have merit, but it is not this mods intention to test them. Like JiMorrison said, it would be hard to make people play a mod that would do so dramatic changes.

*if you did not get the joke, read more Terry Pratchett. Your quality of life will improve.

llamabeast

February 18th, 2009, 04:34 AM

Burnsaber

February 19th, 2009, 12:26 AM

Okay nice, sounds good then. I didn't realise the UW spells were planned to be so minor; I agree it would be fun to have at least *something* to do with your underwater fire mages.

I hope you'll excuse my little checks about the path of the mod. :) I just know from experience that making the things can be sufficiently exciting that checks can sometimes be useful!

Yeah, it's easy to get lost in your own work. I'm the sort of person who needs checking on once in a while. Just look at Alugra, there really is some stupid ***t in there, since I was just too excited and had too many ideas to notice how clustered it got. But that's not really the point of this thread.

I only have few more spells to add. I'll have version 0.4 with all the spells on and going, before weekend. Then I'll wait for the llamabeasts grammar fixes and suggestions + do some balancing testing of my own. Then 0.4 will be destroyed and glorius and grammatically correct 0.8 will rise from the ashes. Then I'll start recruiting for the MP game.

Burnsaber

February 19th, 2009, 11:54 AM

Ok, it's (sorta) done! We hit a nice mark of 46 new spells. Now this thread can rest in peace, as it has fulfilled its purpose. I got the spell mechanics and themes I needed, and some mental support to keep my worst enemy (me) in check.

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you guys for your ideas and support. Althought I didn't add many suggested spells just as written, the ideas and themes were absolutely necessary. Your names will forever live on, etched in the mod readme-file for all eternity!

Now.. I'm going to start a SP game and check on this monstority I have released.

VedalkenBear

February 21st, 2009, 09:09 PM

Jim: Hmm. The dynamics are interesting. I do think that Bow of Botulf-wielding summons would be just as good as what I propose. (BTW, did I mention that the Feeblemind spell is supposed to have godawful accuracy?) But then, how hard is it to get a Storm up to protect your SCs?

Also, I believe it is an exaggeration to say that removing SCs _in late game_ would necessitate a return to early game. Surely, having 2 300-piece armies face off against each other when both sides have attained level 9 research will be very different than both sides having attained level 2 research, no?

Here's another option. Is there a way to _offensively_ cast Returning on someone? That is, place the Returning 'buff' on a unit, so that when it's hit, it's teleported back to its capital?

That might have the same effect.