CPCS -- CrossPath Combat Spells

[Burnsaber]

Thread Moved (http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=55)

[rdonj]

When shrapnel swithced over to the new forum, the ability to edit posts was limited to 30 minutes or so of posting. Because the ability to edit the first post in a thread was very important for dom3 they changed it so that the first post could be edited limitlessly, but left it as is elsewise.

[Aezeal]

A: Depends on the spell. It will regulary use the new direct damage spells. Those with more exotic effects (like #newspells) you'll have to script to get the AI use them. You should also remember that the AI doesn't realize what the #nextspells do. "Anger of God" for example, is a damage spells that does 6+ AN shock damage and with #nextspells 30 physical damage if the target is sacred. The AI doesn't realize that it's a anti-sacred spell and will not specifically target them.

can't you just switch the effects?? that would make the AI prefer to target the sacreds which should be the idea I guess.

[Ballbarian]

Could anyone tell me why I'm unable to edit my second post in this thread? I'm starting to get really annoyed to that old 0.1 version download there.


Post removed. :)

[Burnsaber]

When shrapnel swithced over to the new forum, the ability to edit posts was limited to 30 minutes or so of posting. Because the ability to edit the first post in a thread was very important for dom3 they changed it so that the first post could be edited limitlessly, but left it as is elsewise.

That just.. blows. Hard.

Ugh.. I had quite clear idea how I wanted the first posts of the thread look. Have my minor FAQ and starting words first, then the actual mod download and after that, the spell list. You know, so that it would look nice and you wouldn't have to scim over 40+ spell descriptions to get to the download.

Now it seems that I have to run every change through a moderator. Inconvenient and time consuming for all parties involved. Well, you just have to go by the rules.


can't you just switch the effects?? that would make the AI prefer to target the sacreds which should be the idea I guess.

It's a desing decision that nothing in this mod is completely unresistable (unless the effect is just neglible and annoying like the Battle Fright affliction in "Whispers from Afterlife" and Never Healing Wound from "Waters from Tartarus"). AoE sacred damage spell with 30 damage is quite close to something like that. No defense rolls, no MR rolls, nothing. By having the lighting effect first you can defend against it by having 100% shock resistance, to prevent AI from targeting your troops in the first place.

Now that I wrote that down and thus read it, it simply dawned on me how retarted that is. That's just clunky and meta-gamish. I'll have to figure something out and change it on the next version.

Could anyone tell me why I'm unable to edit my second post in this thread? I'm starting to get really annoyed to that old 0.1 version download there.


Post removed. :)

Thanks. If it won't be too much of an bother could you also edit out the question on the second post? It might confuse someone.

[llamabeast]

Burnsaber - can't you change the sacred-hurting damage to be shock damage? That'd be a much nicer mechanism.

[Burnsaber]

Burnsaber - can't you change the sacred-hurting damage to be shock damage? That'd be a much nicer mechanism.

Well, these dual spells really don't work with the casting AI we got, so made it pure anti-sacred. (the cursing is just something extra, since I needed the spell have #nextspell for the graphical effect)

X ----- 2A1S - Anger of God. Smites enemy sacreds with lighting and curses them if they surive.
Evoc lev 4, R:20+, Prec:100, AoE:1, Fat:50, Dam:20+(AN, shock), UW+

I'll have to test this spell thought. To make sure that you can't "snipe" sacred mages with this spell. I the reduced range won't work, the prec 100 will have to go.

[llamabeast]

I reckon prec 100 is a bit extreme anyway. After all that's top level damage, thunderstrike style, and thunderstrike is not precision 100 but is still considered an awesome spell.

[pyg]

I've been playing CPCS for a while now in SP and I like it a lot. I think I would like more spells in general esp. low level ones. It's fun to watch a battle where the AI busts out a new spell you haven't seen before. Whoa, what was that?!?

[Burnsaber]

I've been playing CPCS for a while now in SP and I like it a lot. I think I would like more spells in general esp. low level ones. It's fun to watch a battle where the AI busts out a new spell you haven't seen before. Whoa, what was that?!?

Oh, It seems that I've somehow managed to miss this post. Well, better late than never.

Firstly, thanks for the feedback. It's always appreciated. Do you happen to remember what the spell was that AI used to bewilder you? The AI seems to love the new summoning spells, so I'm quessing it's one of them.

My intention really wasn't to add spells just for the sake of adding spells, just some low-path requiment combat spells to give the nations secondary mages some use in combat. It now makes sure that each path combo has at least 2 usable combat spells. It might not be enough, thought. What if those spells are in schools you just won't be able to research?

But I'm kinda against adding new spells at this point. I really aimed this mod to be a minor-add on to fix a minor issue that bugged me since I started playing Dom3*. Adding spells would make the impact of this mod larger and more problematic to balance. IMHO, CBM has done a great job in making numereous low-level combat spells worthwhile, so I don't think that there is much need for fixing in that end.

But if more players raise their voices for adding spells, I think that I could go to 60 spells, adding some more spells to especially sucky path-combos.

* I think the exact moment was in Dom:PPP as I made F6A6 phoenix and then tried to find some awesome battle spells for him. "Sulphur Haze" was cool and all that, but kinda downer. Then I figured out that F/A didn't even have any forgeable items!

[pyg]

My intention really wasn't to add spells just for the sake of adding spells, just some low-path requiment combat spells to give the nations secondary mages some use in combat. It now makes sure that each path combo has at least 2 usable combat spells. It might not be enough, thought. What if those spells are in schools you just won't be able to research?


What I'm trying to say is that I like it for an additional reason than those you intended... but I'm a big fan of more anyway ;)

[Sombre]

Burn I'm very impressed by what you've done here, from a modding perspective it's exciting stuff. I will hopefully have a chance to test it a bit more this weekend.

[VedalkenBear]

Burn: First, I've had a similar reasoning for wanting more spells, _for the exact same underlying reason_. (That is, A/F Phoenix just has no spells to make use of it.)

I'm playing CPCS along with CBM and Endo's Kaleva mod, and the Steam spell is brutal. With F3W1, and Phoenix Power, you can blanket entire areas of the enemy army, and they really do just keel over. It's fun stuff. :) It might need to be toned down a bit, though.

[Trumanator]

Well, I can see an A/F Phoenix kicking major *** with archers by casting desert wind, depending on how it scales.

[Burnsaber]

Burn: First, I've had a similar reasoning for wanting more spells, _for the exact same underlying reason_. (That is, A/F Phoenix just has no spells to make use of it.)

I'm playing CPCS along with CBM and Endo's Kaleva mod, and the Steam spell is brutal. With F3W1, and Phoenix Power, you can blanket entire areas of the enemy army, and they really do just keel over. It's fun stuff. :) It might need to be toned down a bit, though.

------ 2F1W - Steam Clouds: caster creates clouds of burning hot mist. AN fire damage.
Conj lev 3, R:25+, Prec:3, AoE:1, NoE:3+, Dam: 2+(AN, fire), cloud lasts for 2 turns, UW-

The problem probably lies in the number of effects. Althought the damage is minor, the clouds can stack on top of each other and the cause massive damage. I'll probably change it to NoE:2+ and make the damage just 2 (non-scaleable with extra fire magic)

Well, I can see an A/F Phoenix kicking major *** with archers by casting desert wind, depending on how it scales.

----- 1F1A - Blessing of the Desert Wind = Small AoE, grants Wind Guide and Flaming Arrows
Thau lev 3, R:5+, Fat:40, Prec:10, AoE:1+, UW-

It's AoE:1+ so it scales with one extra square after each extra fire level. So my F6A6 phoenic could bless 6 squares of archers. (that's 24 flame arrowed and guided archers!)

[VedalkenBear]

Burn: I think one or the other change (and I lean towards the NoE change) would be sufficient.

[whiplashomega]

While more specific and dedicated play testers than myself have actual constructive criticism to give, I'm afraid I have nothing but praise. I've been playing with this mod enacted most of the time for about a month now, and I've never noticed anything other than seamless integration into the larger game. I appreciate the nice work.

[Burnsaber]

While more specific and dedicated play testers than myself have actual constructive criticism to give, I'm afraid I have nothing but praise.


Don't worry, praise is good :D.


I've been playing with this mod enacted most of the time for about a month now, and I've never noticed anything other than seamless integration into the larger game.

Well, seamless integration is exactly the thing I'm going for. Nice to hear that it's working.

I'll probably start recruiting folk to CPCS MP game at the end of the month. So anyone out there has suggestions and ideas, please speak up so that I'll be able to get the changes incorporated to the new version I'll probably make in preparation of the game (I have the Steam spell to fix, might just as well fix something else while I'm at it).

[llamabeast]

Oooh... I really want to find time to look really carefully at CPCS and help with the long-promised English suggestions. Unfortunately my thesis, combined with my poor time management, is foiling me (haven't been able to fire up Dom3 for a fair while now). Hopefully soon! I'm very excited about this and the Holy War mods.

[Burnsaber]

Oooh... I really want to find time to look really carefully at CPCS and help with the long-promised English suggestions. Unfortunately my thesis, combined with my poor time management, is foiling me (haven't been able to fire up Dom3 for a fair while now). Hopefully soon! I'm very excited about this and the Holy War mods.

No problem with the comments. Real life >>>>>> dom3. My mod production effectiveness will go down at the end of this month as my intership ends and I can really start working, that's why I'm working like possessed on my modding projects now.

[NTJedi]

What about some spells which can lower a specific resistance for a single target or perhaps a group?

One of the problems with SCs is once they have 100% resistance it's more difficult to take them down... which is why the Tartarians have been such a debated issue.

A few spells to drop resistance even by 25% could really make some difference.

[Burnsaber]

What about some spells which can lower a specific resistance for a single target or perhaps a group?

One of the problems with SCs is once they have 100% resistance it's more difficult to take them down... which is why the Tartarians have been such a debated issue.

A few spells to drop resistance even by 25% could really make some difference.

Only effects that are in spells in vanilla can be modded. But there is haxor way to implement this. I already have the spell "Curse of the Salamander" in, which 'force feeds' the buff heat-aura on a enemy unit. I could make a spell that gives bark/stone/iron-skin (-25 fres,-50cres,-75sres, respectively) to the unit. Althought there is a problem with this. I tested this while developing CPCS and noticed that the unit only takes the malus from the "top" two spells in the chain. So that if the unit has invulnerability + stoneskin + barkskin he would only get -100poisonres and -50 frostres. If the unit received Ironskin after that, he'd have -100 poisonres and -75 shockres.

So, it's kinda doable, but I already have a very strong (IMHO) anti-sc spell in there. The "Traveller's Curse" which gives unresistable Curse of Stones

------ 2E1W - Traveller's Curse: This spell will turn the land beneath the target in to a muddy sludge, trapping him waistdeep in oozing mire. Only when he escapes, will the victim realize the full scale of his curse. With each step the victim takes, the land under his feet will turn into this thrice-damned sludge. The cursed will have to struggle fiercly just to manage move and will be greatly hampered in combat. Unless the victim is magically reinvograted, he will eventually pass out from exhaustion. Throughout the ages, numereous heroes have been found after battle, having faced the humiliating defeat, drowned in a feet-deep puddle of mud. (automatically Slimes, earth grips and curse of Stones the target)
Alt lev 5, R:20+, NoE: 1, Prec 10, Fat:50, UW-

[Zeldor]

Burnsaber:

Didn't follow the discussion here, but that mod looks interesting. I am tempted now to make some Enhanced Gameplay Mod, with some stuff, including your mod, banned spells, magic site pack, removal of gem-making items, some other summons [for F/W mostly, by Zlefin]. I have some doubts about balance on some spells though:
- Terrible Visage: it adds it on 3 units, right? If so, it may be not too big, but fear+0 is quite powerful if massed [will it work on archers too?]
- Blessing of the Desert Wind: that AoE+ won't be too strong? any nations can get over 1 AoE on that? it's really low and powerful spell, and sounds like quite easy to put on big groups of archers [don't know any A/F mages though]
- Soulfire: that sounds very very nasty, that will own enemy armies [even if you lose your troops too fast, I'd imagine hordes of militia with some nations that have mages to spam it [in communion to reduce fatigue]]
- Traveller's Curse: afaik Curse of Stones is bugged and affects both sides, so making minor version of that may be not a great idea [and will it work?]
- hield of Heavens: good spell, but AoE can make it too strong
- Brain Freeze: shouldn't be MR++ instead of MR+? especially with AoE... [imagine hordes of TC masters of the way spamming it, reverse communion]

Rest looks ok, I think :)

I could use it for Preponderance 2, to get some real-game testing. IT will be some time till it starts though.

[Burnsaber]

Burnsaber:

Didn't follow the discussion here, but that mod looks interesting. I am tempted now to make some Enhanced Gameplay Mod, with some stuff, including your mod, banned spells, magic site pack, removal of gem-making items, some other summons [for F/W mostly, by Zlefin]. I have some doubts about balance on some spells though:


Sounds good.


- Terrible Visage: it adds it on 3 units, right? If so, it may be not too big, but fear+0 is quite powerful if massed [will it work on archers too?]


Yeah three units, 1 more for each level of air past 2. It could be strong but that fatiguecost 50 is pretty high. It is just like regular fear, it reduces the morale of nearby units so it's not that effective on archers. Air/Death mages are pretty rare too.


- Blessing of the Desert Wind: that AoE+ won't be too strong? any nations can get over 1 AoE on that? it's really low and powerful spell, and sounds like quite easy to put on big groups of archers [don't know any A/F mages though]


The AoE is 1 for each level of fire. MA marignon has 25% chance get F3A1 grand master, but I can't think of any else. Fire/Air is the suckiest path combo in dominions, ever. This spells highest cost is one of opportunity. You need to have a lot of high power mages to cover large amounts (50+) archers. The buffing is not instantaneous (you can't cover your whole army in turn 1, like with Flaming arrows + wind guide) and costs scripted mage turns. No forgeable items, and just 1 medicore combat spell.


- Soulfire: that sounds very very nasty, that will own enemy armies [even if you lose your troops too fast, I'd imagine hordes of militia with some nations that have mages to spam it [in communion to reduce fatigue]]


Yeah, it's nasty. Althought militia isn't probably the best option for buffing (weakness to missiles, combat spells). This spell mostly makes your chaff beat yuor opponents chaff. They'll be just as weak to mages as before. Fire resistant and medicore mr thugs can basically ignore the buffs.(astral shield is just plain mr roll, so mr >15 is basically immunity)


- Traveller's Curse: afaik Curse of Stones is bugged and affects both sides, so making minor version of that may be not a great idea [and will it work?]


It works. I have tested every spell manually. The spell Curse of Stones might be bugged (is it really? I could easily fix it by modding, could be a good addition to cbm), but effect isn't.


- Shield of Heavens: good spell, but AoE can make it too strong

Remember that shock body also does damage to you when it activates! This spell basically creates kamikaze soldiers, so you're basically just trading your troops to your opponent's on 1 to 1 basis. (unless they have shock res. Caelum? But it lacks S/A mages). This reminds me that I need to state this in the in-game description.


- Brain Freeze: shouldn't be MR++ instead of MR+? especially with AoE... [imagine hordes of TC masters of the way spamming it, reverse communion]


You're probably right. Not that effective, but good to force spam insane amounts of mr-checks. (It really doesn't matter if the guy fails the feeblemind or paralyze check, he's boned anyways, especially with feeblemind :D).



I could use it for Preponderance 2, to get some real-game testing. IT will be some time till it starts though.

Oh, sweet. I'm also starting a small (8players) game by the end of the month.

[Burnsaber]

I gave this some more thought (I posted the above text in 15 minutes before I had to go to work, which shows in the grammar) and you raise some very good concerns. Since the "too weak" option is always better that "too strong", I'm probably going to these changes:

Terrible Visage -> targets eiter AoE:1 (non-scaling, makes this better on humans) or NoE:2+ (1 less than before)

Blessing of the Desert Wind: I seriously think that this is fine. Air/Fire is just so sucky that it deserves some goodies. (see also: Winds of Summer)

Soulfire -> I thought about this and it would probably be thematical if the targets were somehow fatigued by their burning soul flame. I'll probably remove the fire resistance effect so that: 1) the targets will fatigue out eventually from the heat aura, 2) then the spell won't give any more resistance to combat magic, which is the best way to deal with something with damage auras.

Traveller's Curse -> I admit, I was babying this a bit. I just find the idea of a supercombanant defeated by mud extremely funny. But why should a tartarian get defeated by the curse, since they don't get tired by anything? It doesn't make sense. I'll probably make it E1W1, with AoE:1+, lower level spell which causes Earth Grip + Slime. Should be nice against elite/sacred troops (halved att & def? Congratulations, you're now chaff!)

Shield of Heavens: I think that this is fine. I'll have to alter the theme thought. It's not really a "shield", more like "walking disposable lighting dispenser"

Brain Freeze -> I'll go with Zeldor's suggestion about making both effects mr easily negates.

I'm probably making a new version this weekend after I see if this discussion bears any more fruit. I'm worried about some spells being too weak. Any thoughts on these?

----- 2A1E Fall Winds - Fall is the time of harvest and labour and marks the need to prepare both physically and mentally for the long hard winter. Str boost + some frost resistance
Ench lev 4, R:20+, AoE:5+, NoE:1, Fat:50, Prec:5, UW-,UD-,ML-,IA-

---> This is kind of random. Str boost + frost res? Where is the synergy? I remeber having hard time figuring out what the "Fall" wind should do.

----- 2E1N - Shield of Gaia: The mother of all truly loves her children, and this spell manifests that love as visible protection against the natural elements (fire/frost/shcok/poison resistance 50). Undead and inanimated constructs are not her children and will not be protected.(thanks to redeyes)
Ench lev 3, R:10, Prec:5, Fat:40, AoE:2+, UW+, UD-, IA-

----- 3E2N - Gaia's Caress: The mother of all truly loves her children, and this spell manifests that love as visible protection against the natural elements (fire/frost/shcok/poison resistance 50). Undead and inanimated constructs are not her children and will not be protected.(thanks to redeyes)
Ench lev 7, R:10, Prec:5, Fat:200, NoE:3+, AoE:3+, UW+, UD-, IA-

---------> These two are made completely void by the enchanment level 9 spell (Gaia's Blessing) that has this effect as battlefield wide. On the same path combo! I really had no idea that there even was this spell in the game. These are the only spell that directly duplicate a excisting effect on a vanilla spell. I feel like I should scrap the other and try something different with the other. But what?

------- 1D1W - Baptism of Hades: In the underworld lies the stream of dead, the infamous river styx, the line between life and death. Using his dark art, the Necromancer conjures some water from this stream on his undead troops, healing them (10AP). The water will cover quite large area and any mortals struck by the water (defense resists) will wither away in mere minutes. This spell makes no difference between friend or foe, and might heal opposing undead or destroy friendly mortals if it misses.
Conj lev3, R:25+, Prec:5, Fat:30, AoE:3+, Dam:10, UW-, UD+

-------> Uber Niche?

Any ideas?

[darloth]

I know that the cloud-variant tangle or earthgrip proved too strong, but how about a cloud-variant slime spell? You could do just about anything with the flavour text, anything from timeslow to lesser-entanglement, as well as just clouds of slime ^_^

I'm not too sure about the name or path combo, but if you need ideas, there's one.

Otherwise, I too have been enjoying using this mod and the HolyWar mod, I think they both add a nice chunk of diversity. Actually, I wished that NvV2 had HolyWar on just recently turn, as I had a H2 priest I wasn't entirely sure how to use for best effect.

Anyway - I agree with you on Blessing of the Desert Wind. I tried it out with Jomon, who can (with the right combination) manage F2A1 semi-often, and while I thought it was going to be utterly amazing, it wasn't. It was nice, and added a good chunk of damage, but the AoEs are still small enough to make it niche, where it should be.

Perhaps if you custom built a pretender to cast it, it would be powerful, but people -usually- have better things to do with their pretender than F9 A1 :)

[Burnsaber]

Alright, new version. I've added the in-game descriptions to the spell-list in http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42113 and improved its readability.

Major changes in 0.4 -> 0.6

- Balancing changes to following: Terrible Visage, Steam Clouds, Soulfire

- Removed following spells: Traveller's Curse (Due to basic unthematicness), Call of the Herd (why use this when there are the shark spells?), Gaia's Caress (due to doupling in-game effect)

- New Spells: E/W Grip of the Marhslands, N Surge of Algae (UW only), E/N Warriors of Gaia

- Imprved grammar and spelling on numereous spells. As a example, see the new and improved description for the "Call Drowned" spell, which summons ghosts underwater.

"There is a ancient legend about a fickle trickster god who was imprisoned to underworld by Pantakrator in the early days. But there is prophecy stating that he will free himself from his prison of torment and sail against the Pantakrator on the final days. He will be sailing with a ship made from the nails of all of the men who have drowned on seas and the ship will be crewed by the same men. This means that men drowned on sea are unable to pass on to afterlife, bound to the sea till end days. None know if the legend is true, but necromancers know that underwater is especially favourable place to summon ghosts. This spell can only be cast underwater.”

EDIT: Also I'm going to start recruting for the CPCS (about 10 players) game this weekend. If you absolutely want to be in, send me an PM and I'll reserve a spot.

[Burnsaber]

You guys see the description for the "Call Drowned" spell in the above post? Apparently it caused a major bug since the last epiteth is somehow different, rending some UW-only combat spells useless.

Hence the new version.

[llamabeast]

I just had a play with "Chaotic Currents". Very fun. However, the description indicates that the currents will continue to blink people who step on the affected square. In fact that doesn't happen, although people do continue to take damage by stepping on the square.

[Burnsaber]

I just had a play with "Chaotic Currents". Very fun. However, the description indicates that the currents will continue to blink people who step on the affected square. In fact that doesn't happen, although people do continue to take damage by stepping on the square.

Intresting. So apparently nextspell effects only happen on the first turn of the spells effect. I'll have to add this to the "modding tips" thread

I'll probably make the Chaotic currents non-cloud for the next version.

[llamabeast]

I think they are effectively just independent spells. So for example in my big watery spell for Oceania, the elemental summons carry on happening, all for different lengths of time, after the main spell is cast. If possible you'd want to make the "blink" effect into a cloud I guess.

I haven't read the spell properly so sorry if this is nonsense!

[Burnsaber]

I think they are effectively just independent spells. So for example in my big watery spell for Oceania, the elemental summons carry on happening, all for different lengths of time, after the main spell is cast. If possible you'd want to make the "blink" effect into a cloud I guess.


You're right, I didn't make the blink effect into a cloud. I thought that it would constantly "recast" the nextspell each turn automatically. Will be fixed for the next version (which will be made once the CPCS mp games give some playtest data) I'll have to take a look if this affects some other nextspelling clouds in the mod (Befoul comes to mind at the moment).

If CPCS wasn't so full on spell-slot hogging already (althought I'll probably manage to scrape of a couple of nextspells in the next version), I'd probably make a cloud spell that gradually decreases in effectiveness.

[Burnsaber]

Ok, this mod will be next in my updating marathon. The theme of the update is to reduce the amount of spell slots this mod takes. I'm thinking of scraping off 8 spell slots (to bring this mod into using "only" 70 slots).

Here are spells I was thinking of revising for the next update.

D/E -- Fall to the Grave: It's just so.. clunky. Both gameplay wise and thematically. It also takes 2 spell slots

D/W -- Styxian Baptism: This is just too niche for a spell that uses 3 spell slots. I've seen it used against me in Unsanity and wasn't impressed. It's just too hard to hit enemies with the AoE.

D/S -- The Curse of the Four Horsemen -- I rather like this spell, but not so much that it'd be worth of 5! spell slots.

If anyone has any ideas on replacing spells, be sure to share them!

[Frozen Lama]

Call drowned- i've used it, and it seemed really not worth it especially since it costs a D gem. maybe if it summoned two or three guys, or didn't cost a gem. just my opinion. thanks for the mod btw!

[Gregstrom]

I've only used a couple in Unsanity, as there's not much the mod does for BL. Maybe I've missed something in S/N...

[Burnsaber]

Call drowned- i've used it, and it seemed really not worth it especially since it costs a D gem. maybe if it summoned two or three guys, or didn't cost a gem. just my opinion. thanks for the mod btw!

I'll probably boost the amount ghosts summoned. I still remember Dom:PPP and how summon lesser elemental spells didn't cost a gem back then. It was *insane*. One has to be careful with no-gem summons.

I've only used a couple in Unsanity, as there's not much the mod does for BL. Maybe I've missed something in S/N...

S/N has "Fortuna's Meddling" which is great for army vs SC encounters. The spell affects half of the battlefield and all those who fail an easy mr check get Astral weapons (all weapons AN), Luck, Twist Fate and MR boost. This should be great for Bandar Log, AN "Sticks & Stones" could be pretty freaking brutal. Thorns of the World Tree is pretty good too.

[Trumanator]

Thorns almost seems tailored specificaly for Marverni. I love it!

[Burnsaber]

Thorns almost seems tailored specificaly for Marverni. I love it!

Glad to hear it. I didn't specifally tailor it for anyone thought, I was just hypnotized by the idea of combining curse
,entangling and poison to cause lots of afflictions.

But anyways, new version.

I can proudly announce that this version uses only 52 spell slots! This should make the mod a *lot* more compactible with serious mod comboes.

Important changes.

- Got rid of UW-only combat spells. They belong to UWGIM.
- spell "Rush to Doom" removed.
- Several spells changed, mostly by reduced researchlevels and fatiguecosts.
- Complete revamping of 3 spells.

Curse of Four Horsemen replaced by this

------- 1D1S - Gaze of Azrael: "With menace, the caster will point some opposing soldiers and invoke the true name of the Angel of Death. Directed by the caster, Azrael will devote his attention to the poor mortals. Should the targets magical resistance fail, their flesh will start to age at an supernatural rate. The Angel of Death is guardian of eternal rest and if his attention is drawn upon undead units, he will cleanse their presence from this plane." (Mr negates or decay. also cast "Dust to Dust")
Thau lev 2, R:25, AoE:1, Fat:25, UW+, MR+


Enforce Natural Balance replaced by this

------- 2ND1 - Plague of Insects: "The caster conjures thousands upon thousands of small insects to plague a small area on the battlefield. Unless the targets are heavily armored, the insects are likely to sting the targets to death. Inanimate targets are unaffected, althought some undead might catch some Maggots, who'll start feasting on the affected undead. Ethereal units are rarely affected by this spell." (physical non-elemental damage. All squares affected by this spell will also be targeted by "Maggots" spell)
Conj lev 4, R:25+, Fat:35, NoE:3+, AoE:1, Dam:19+, Prec:-2, UW-


Fall to Grave replaced by this

------- 2D1E - Withering: "This spell manifests a horrible phenomenon into the battlefield, which takes the form of grey cloud of dust. This gray dust is physical manifestation of death magic and will dissolve all matter it comes into contact with. All those who fail to resist the malevolent magic will have their bodies severely afflicted and suffer from rusting armour. This spell is extraordinary effective against constructs, sometimes crublimg them to fine dust." (MR negates or suffer from disease,rusty armor, limp and weakened, also nextspells "Shatter")
Thau lev 4, R:25+, Prec:0, Fat:40, AoE:2+, UW+, MR+

[Burnsaber]

I'm thinking of doing an update for this mod and replacing some problematic spells. If someone has any feedback regarding a spell in the mod, now is your chance to say something and get it fixed.

Here is a small list of spells I'm not really happy with and I'm intent on replacing.

Celestial Ice (W/S)- AI likes it a bit too much and the cold aura can cause some annoying friendly fire

Animate Manikins (D/N) - A bit boring and death has enough combat summons already, besides, I'm pretty sure that the increased amount of effects with corpses is not working

I'm not sure with what I'll replace these spells, but I have some ideas:

-Cloud spell that deals some sort of "mr negates" buff (but what?), since there is currently no spell in this niche. Perhaps the seasonal winds (Winds of Summer/Fall) could be cloud spells?
-Transformation spell to turn people into frogs, since we are currently missing on the chance to do this classical witch spell (N/W? or perhaps N/S or S/N?)
-A spell that would bless "not-sacreds" (this would obviously need a huge drawback)
-A spell using the effect number 17 (Song of Bravery), I have tested it and it grants +5 morale, but the effect wears off in 2-5 turns.


I'll also do a bit of tinkering with some spells, like:

- "Fall of Muscle and Steel" -> Increased AoE
- "Grip of the Marshlands" -> Make hit friendlies too, increase range to 25, perhaps small prec boost?
- "Shocking Pour" -> +1 to damage
-beef up the spells that reguire gems with boosted AoE.

[rdonj]

My original conception for winds of spring involved it being a cloud spell anyway. So as far as I'm concerned go ahead :) They're quite fine spells in their current form too though.

If you want to make "the classic witch spell" you have to do it with E/N! Because those are the paths that witches get in game. It would be weird having that spell and witches being totally incapable of casting it.

Perhaps the "bless not-sacreds" spell could #nextspell soulslay? That should be a pretty significant drawback.... I don't think it would be unreasonable either, because that can be a very powerful effect. I'd consider making the spell mr-negates too.

[kianduatha]

Fall of Metal and Muscle can get a pretty insane AOE already and caused a fair number of my fatalities vs. EA Ulm in Legendary Ordeals--I'm not sure it needs further buffing.

Shocking Pour definitely needs a little buff like that...I've been trying to use it(and have the perfect casters for it) but it isn't effective enough for the drawbacks it has right now.

Grip of the Marshlands if it hits friendlies definitely needs not so much a precision boost as an AOE boost--the only reason I've been using it at all has been because it doesn't hit friendlies; otherwise it's more or less inferior to Earth Grip. I shouldn't be having to seriously consider whether a W3E2 caster would be better served Earth Gripping or casting Grip of the Marshlands. AOE 2+ would probably be enough.

Steam Clouds just seems too good--specifically the damage scaling. I'll need to do some more testing on it, though. It has every indication of being way better than even Acid Rain in most fights if you can field a, say, W4F3 after buffs guy.

Oh, and Blessing of the Desert Winds is in a pretty good place right now--a nice early game boost and raiding spell, but you want to switch over to Flaming Arrows in a 'real' fight.

[Burnsaber]

If you want to make "the classic witch spell" you have to do it with E/N! Because those are the paths that witches get in game. It would be weird having that spell and witches being totally incapable of casting it.


Eh, well. Sort of true, but the independent unit "witch" is not really a "witch", more like a order of female hedge wizards who are suffering from bad PR with the peasentry. I think that units like "Nushi" fit the witch streotype better despite lacking the name. I also really could see Naiads, Capricorns, Nushi and C'tis Swampmasters (for example) casting a spell that turns people into frogs.

I'm also not really happy with the current N/W spell "Rejuvenating Waters", so replacing it with this frog spell would also give me the chance to get rid of that.


Perhaps the "bless not-sacreds" spell could #nextspell soulslay? That should be a pretty significant drawback.... I don't think it would be unreasonable either, because that can be a very powerful effect. I'd consider making the spell mr-negates too.

Now that I thought about, I really think I'll have to scrap the idea. It's just too hard to balance: If I make it "useful" with a weak bless, it will most likely be broken with a strong bless. If I only make it useful if you have a strong bless, it becomes too niche to be really useful.


Fall of Metal and Muscle can get a pretty insane AOE already and caused a fair number of my fatalities vs. EA Ulm in Legendary Ordeals--I'm not sure it needs further buffing.


Well, I saw most of those battles with Ulm and was not really impressed, but I'll take your word for it. Since it can also be annoying because the weakness and the armor loss carries on even after the battle, leaving you with crippled units that you have to pay upkeep for.


Shocking Pour definitely needs a little buff like that...I've been trying to use it(and have the perfect casters for it) but it isn't effective enough for the drawbacks it has right now.


Yeah, I agree. I'm kind of suprised how ineffective it proved out to be, but it seems that the RNG can be a fickle mistress with really low damage spells.


Grip of the Marshlands if it hits friendlies definitely needs not so much a precision boost as an AOE boost--the only reason I've been using it at all has been because it doesn't hit friendlies; otherwise it's more or less inferior to Earth Grip. I shouldn't be having to seriously consider whether a W3E2 caster would be better served Earth Gripping or casting Grip of the Marshlands. AOE 2+ would probably be enough.


The frienly hits is mostly a thematic concern. After seeing it in use in combat in Ordeals, I don't see why this spell shouldn't affect friendlies while "Earth Grip" does. I'll boost the range (+5), AoE(2+) and give a small prec bonus too (+1) to compensate.


Steam Clouds just seems too good--specifically the damage scaling. I'll need to do some more testing on it, though. It has every indication of being way better than even Acid Rain in most fights if you can field a, say, W4F3 after buffs guy.


Hmm. This is the second time I might have to nerf the spell. Perhaps I'll get rid of the scaling once and for all and just balance it against "Fire Cloud".


Oh, and Blessing of the Desert Winds is in a pretty good place right now--a nice early game boost and raiding spell, but you want to switch over to Flaming Arrows in a 'real' fight.

Thanks, I could also use reports like this. Now I know to resist the temptation to tinker with it :P .


As for the spell I'm going to replace, I now have an diea for the new W/S spell. There currently is no way to give the "+5 def" effect from the "water shield" to troops. I'm not sure yet what the theme will be (perhaps they get blessed with the essence of water and become more agile?). But I think that making it low AoE, mr easily negates cloud that stays in the battlefield for 2 turns might be prove intresting. Probably on the enchantment tree with at least W2S1 requirement.

However, my mind is currently drawing blanks when it comes to the new D/N spell. That one is though and I remember only using the manikin idea because I just did not have any better ideas.

Any ideas anyone for some sweet D/N action?

[Sombre]

If you want good ideas for DN spells, look up magic the gathering Black/Green multicolour cards.

Basically growth + death = rot and the micro life cycle. How about a spell that can only target undead and creates a cloud of disease? Obviously disease doesn't bother undead, but you could punish someone for using mixed armies. Or a spell which drains life but gives the target regen.

[kennydicke]

If you want good ideas for DN spells, look up magic the gathering Black/Green multicolour cards.
Especially those from the Ravnica expansions - there are a lack of other instances of that color combination. But the source is definitely a good one to draw upon.

In Magic, Green/Black is almost exclusively a total destruction spell, or makes use of the sacrifice mechanic. That isn't to say dom3 has to be so limited, but it does give good insights.

You could have a spell that gives a negative buff to the caster or destroys living units (friendly or otherwise) to buff or create undead, or vice versa (destroys undead to create living units, or buff caster or living units).

Or, a cloud-type spell that similarly mixes benefit with malus (basically, Sombre's ideas).

Or, an instant death-type spell that does both normal and fatigue damage, or that is also a small-time buff, or is expensive but isn't resisted by MR, or that creates a neutral unit, etc.

Certainly, though, the taking and making of life (and unlife) are strong candidates for consideration.

[Ragnarok-X]

Astral + Death could call a Aether Pulse, small AoE instant death chance.

About Death + Nature, a low range (touch?) single target kill spell which creatures a skeleton or ghoul would work. Something like "Corrupt flesh" or something.

[Burnsaber]

Astral + Death could call a Aether Pulse, small AoE instant death chance.


Thanks for the idea, but I think I'll pass. I'm pretty happy with the current S/D spell "Gaze of Azrael". Besides, D & S both have insta-kill spells already (disintegrate/soul slay)


About Death + Nature, a low range (touch?) single target kill spell which creatures a skeleton or ghoul would work. Something like "Corrupt flesh" or something.

Thanks. IIRC, I've gotten a lot of suggestions like that in the first CPCS brainstorms, but it won't work. There is no way to mod "if" clauses. In this example, a skeleton should always be created if a unit dies by this spell. But the skeleton will always be created, even if the target makes the save. And making a insta-kill spell wihtout save is a strict no-no.

I'm working on the update and it is sort of snowballing. When I was going through the spells I noticed a lot of stuff I didn't like. Because I want this mod to be simple and to the point, I'm going to replace more spells with new ones. Here is a quick list;

OLD ---> NEW
Soul Fire (F/S) (costs gem, niche, hard to balance) ---> Celestial Flame (F1S1,low range, AP holy damage, non-elemental, boosts morale in nearby firendly units)

Mind over Matter (S/E) (costs gem, niche, takes 2 spell slots) ---> Chains of Fenrir (S1E1, low range, imprisons one target with bonds of fire + earth meld + false fetters + tangle vines)

Celestial Shield (S/A) (clunky like hell) ---> Celestial Embrace (S1A1, creates a small aoe cloud (lass 3 turns) that gives "twist fate", MR negates the effect)

Anger of God (A/S) (niche) ---> Static Bolt (A2S1, weaker lighting bolt that gives the target "Charge Body" effect)

I'll also probably figure something out to replace the "Styxian Baptism" which is suffering from a really small niche. It takes two spell slots too!

[Ragnarok-X]

Well i was suggesting the aether pulse because i was under the impression you would eventually do one low and one high level crosspath spell each. sorry.

[Frozen Lama]

Thanks. IIRC, I've gotten a lot of suggestions like that in the first CPCS brainstorms, but it won't work. There is no way to mod "if" clauses. In this example, a skeleton should always be created if a unit dies by this spell. But the skeleton will always be created, even if the target makes the save. And making a insta-kill spell wihtout save is a strict no-no.



didn't you have a unit in your heavy metal mod that reanimated the guys he killed? or was he actually broken and instakilled people?

[Sombre]

That's a weapon attribute. Like twin spear. Kills people into soulless.

[llamabeast]

I notice you seem to be trying to replace spells you describe as "niche". Remember that "nicheness" is generally an awesome thing as it means players get that moment where they go "aha! I have just the spell for this!". The number of niche spells is one of the things that makes dom3 so interesting.

[Burnsaber]

I notice you seem to be trying to replace spells you describe as "niche". Remember that "nicheness" is generally an awesome thing as it means players get that moment where they go "aha! I have just the spell for this!". The number of niche spells is one of the things that makes dom3 so interesting.

Having a lot of thematic niche spell would be cool, but not if they take a spell slot. Spell slots are quite tight and mods need to maxime their usage. Having a lot of niche spells (a'k'a spells that are unlikely to be casted in most games) is a waste of spell slots.

Anyways, new version. Lot of new spells and I did a lot of tinkering with the old news (mostly small buffs). In case you prefer the old spell over this new version, I have documented them to the mod readme file. Just copy-paste the spell you want from the readme file to the .dm file.


The new spells:

Static Bolt (replaced the "Anger of God" spell)

-- 1A1S - "This strange spell looks a lot like an ordinary lighting bolt. However, as the lighting bolt summoned by this spell strikes the enemy troops, the astral essence mixed with the spell will channel the charge of the lighting into nearby troops. If these charged soldiers get struck later in the combat, the charge will be released, likely killing them and their attacker."

Evoc lev 3, R:30, Prec:3, Fat:20, Dam:5+(AN, shock), (all troops in the targeted square will gain "Charge Body")


Celestial Fire (replaced the "Soulfire" spell)

1F1S - "This spell allows the caster to throw forth some flame blessed by the celestial powers. The celestial flame is a spiritual flame that will burn even those that are resistant to fire. This spell is rarely lethal if the targets have decent armor, unless the opponents happen to be demons or undead. When the flame goes off, it will fill the nearby area with a shining light. This light will give all friendly troops a temporary boost to their morale."

Evo lev 4, R:20, Prec:7, Fat:20, Damage: 7 (AP, triple vs demons/undead) AoE:1, UW+, will cause +5 morale boost in friendly units in a aoe 40 burst


Celestial Baptism (replaced the "Celestial Ice" spell)

2W1S - "This spell clouds some friendly troops in water blessed by the celestial powers. The affected troops will be purified and give celestial form as their body is cleansed from sin. Their new form will be healed and gain resistance to poison. Also, for the duration of the battle, all opponents striking the baptised soldiers will be faced with vengeance from the Celestial Powers." (Grants poison resistance and the "Holy Avenger" buff, also nextspells "Heal")

Ench lev 5, R:5, Fat:30, AoE:1, Prec: 10, IN-, UD-, ML-, UW+


Icy Grave (replaced the "Waters from Tartarus" spell)

2W1D - "This cruel spell will encase some enemies in a giant block of ice, immobilizing and numbing them. As an insult to injury, this spell will also make them age rapidly, allowing the caster laugh as he sees his victim struggling against the ice as his muscles weaken. This spell cannot be resisted, but it has a low range."
(Decays and imprisons on ice, no save)

Thaum lev 4, R:10, Fat:30, Prec: 1, AoE:1, UW+


Curse of the Hags (Replaced the "Rejuvenating Waters" spell)

2N1W - "Crones and Hags of festering mires are feared because of this spell. This powerful curse will transform some enemies into frogs. Although this spell is rightly feared by peasants, it only works effectively on those who are either stupid or superstitious. As a insult to injury, the cursed frog-form will have a really long lifespan, so that the cursed one will spend the rest of his miserable life searching for a cure that does not exist."
(MR saves easily, turns units into frogs)

Alt lev 4, R:30, Fat:20, Prec: 0, AoE:1+, UW+


Celestial Embrace (Replaced the "Shield of Heavens" spell)

1S1A - This spell will cloud some friendly troops in divine radiance. The celestial force will value the troops it shines on, and protect those who it finds worthy. The troops under the protection of the divine forces will get the first successful attack made against them negated as the forces twist fate itself. The divine radiance will stay on the battlefield for some time. It is hard to say who the mysterious forces will find worthy of their protection, but they seem to prefer protecting those who are meek. The celestial forces will not protect undead."
(gives "Twist fate", MR negates, cloud lasts for 3 turns)

Ench lev 3, R:15, AoE: 1+, Fat: 25


Chains of Fenrir (replaced the "Mind over Matter" spell)

-- 1S1E - Chains of Fenrir: "At the dawn of time there was a horrible monster called Fenrir. The gods needed to chain him down to prevent him from eating the world, but Fenrir could just broke the chains if he was captured. Then the gods sought aid from the dwarfs, who forged a great chain called Gleipnir. It appeared to be only a silken ribbon but was made of six wondrous ingredients: the sound of a cat's footfall, the beard of a woman, the roots of a mountain, bear's sinews, fish's breath and bird's spittle. The forging of Gleipnir took all of these things from the world and they are now lost to this realm, but Fenrir was captured. This spell channels the might of Gleipnir and imprisons one foe with chains of fire, air, earth and nature."
(targets gets false fetters + earth meld + bonds of fire +)

Thaum lev 3, R:25, Prec:0, Fat:20, UW+


Chill of the Grave (replaced the "Styxian Baptism" spell)


--1D1W - "This spell will call upon the chilling winds of the underworld and make some friendly undead troops spread freezing death upon your foes."
(Grants cold aura +6, undead only)
Ench lev3, R:5, Prec:3, Fat:20, AoE:1, UW+, UD+


Fester (replaced the "Animate Manikins" spell)


"This spell will channel the energies of life and death and hit some enemy troops with their combined might. The affected soldiers will become covered with festering pores and their flesh will start to fall off as the magic devours their mortal forms, decomposing them within few painful minutes. This spell manifests the force of eternal cycle, which includes all beings and thus this spell can affect even the undead and magically animated."

Evo lev 4, R:25, Fat:20, Prec:2, AoE:2, Dam: 20 (non-elemental "poison effect"), MR negates, UW+

[Ragnarok-X]

Haunting Whispers seems to be grossly overpowered. I was fightning with a decent-sized army versus a bunch of fire snakes and two demonbreeds and my army was routed in 2 turns.
its likely either the scaling of the AoE (1 + 1 per level) together with damage (frighten 6). I would suggest something more like damage 1001 or 1002.

[Burnsaber]

Haunting Whispers seems to be grossly overpowered. I was fightning with a decent-sized army versus a bunch of fire snakes and two demonbreeds and my army was routed in 2 turns.
its likely either the scaling of the AoE (1 + 1 per level) together with damage (frighten 6). I would suggest something more like damage 1001 or 1002.


Compare it to basic "Terror". Which is D2 to cast but has more AoE only 1 lower damage. The enemy mages would have gotten the same effect just by spamming that instead if they got scaling bonuses. However, some questions:

How many and what kind of mages did the enemy have?

I can't say much else about the situation without seeing the battle myself. Was the battle in a SP game you could share?

[Ragnarok-X]

Unfortunally i cant because it was a randommap and im on a slow connection with a max upload of 8 kb per second. It would too long to upload the 5 megabyte (yes).

It was my army of 1x 50 principe w/ 8 standart bearers and 1x30 cataphracts and 1x 40 barbarians (no berserk) vs his army of 1 lich (d8), 7 ghosts, 15 firesnakes and 2 demonbreeds. Breeds were casting whispers twice each and exactly then did my entire army route. Party of my army had experience 1, and it was friendly dom, though no home province.

Perhaps you can set up a quick game and look how powerful 2-3 castings of whispers (fatigue 15) will do. Perhaps my opinion is biased.
Sorry i cant share the replay.

I realize that using my suggestion the lich with d8 would probably be even more powerful with an 8-9 morale blast.



edit: part of why i think the spell is not balanced good is basicly the AoE. By making the base the same as the level-scaler, you get a very weak spell low level and a mighty mighty spell high level. Compare it to summon ghosts which scales as well. You get 2 or 3 ghosts at cast requirements and +1 for each level, so a D10 pretender would get like 4 times the effiency compared to the "normal" caster. Proper scaling would make it 10 ghosts (weaker) on cast requirements and then scale it +1 or +2 for each level. That way, a highlvl caster still gets more powerful effects, but doesnt outclass any other caster. If the base of ANY spell is too weak when compared to levelup-bonuses, a spell always sucks early game but is bonkers lategame, which in my opinion, isnt good for the gameplay.

I just modded your whispers from 1+1 AoE and 6 morale loss to 1+1 AoE and 1+1 morale loss. I will let you know how the battle plays out, given the AI attacks again.

[Ragnarok-X]

i made a mistake, it was only the lich casting whispers, the demon breeds were doing boil. I think a static AoE of 2 or 3 and morale damage 1+1 or 2+1 would be good.

[Burnsaber]

It was my army of 1x 50 principe w/ 8 standart bearers and 1x30 cataphracts and 1x 40 barbarians (no berserk) vs his army of 1 lich (d8), 7 ghosts, 15 firesnakes and 2 demonbreeds. Breeds were casting whispers twice each and exactly then did my entire army route. Party of my army had experience 1, and it was friendly dom, though no home province.


Look, your army was horribly underequipped to deal with a D8 Lich. The dude would have messed you up with just the basic "Terror" spell (and many other spells that I won't bother to count here). Because a spell actually did something doesn't mean that it is OP. Don't throw units with no mage support at enemy D8 lich, that is just pure basics of the game. Mages kill troops, it's how they work. D8 mages kill a lot of troops. Besides, getting routed is just annoying since you don't actually lose units. The spell is in line with the vanilla fear spells. Trust me, D8 lich has many *much* better tactics at his disposal than just spamming Haunting Whispers, you should consider yourself lucky.

Try getting some mor30 troops or use nature mages to berkserk your troops. Snipe his liches and Ghosts with "Solar Rays". You have a lot of counters at your disposal, use them.

[Ragnarok-X]

hey,

how exactly does the Brain Freeze works ?
I had 3 theurgs casting it against a bunch of indies (light milita), and even though they got the "blue" overlay, they didnt stop moving, nor did they mass fatigue faster. How is it supposed to effect the troops ?

[Gregstrom]

In that case, I think they may just have got the numbness effect (lowers attack and defence?). The other effects are MR+, so not very likely to happen.

[Ragnarok-X]

Greg, why aint the two nextspells very likely to happen ? Those guys were miltia, so they had like 9 or 10 MR. The Theurg got no penetration, but still. It should be 50% to not resist with 10 MR shouldnt it ?