Conceptual Balance Mod 1.5

[quantum_mechani]

Some of the changes from 1.41:

*Strands of Arcane Power, Fata Morgana, and Enchanted Forest all made lower research and cheaper/easier to cast.

*Treelords now generate 1 nature gem per turn, and are somewhat better in combat.

*Bug fixed where one of the unarmored Lanka sacreds was too expensive.

*Several national rainbow pretenders made more attractive, especially the Lawgiver and Divine Emperor.

*Some types of LA Pythium legionnaires made cheaper, as well as renata.

*Eater of the dead further improved, and made easier to cast.

*Dark vines made cheaper.

*Bone grinding once again needs a gem to cast.

*Leprosy and Black Death more expensive (though cheaper than base game).

*Sirrush cheaper.

*Son of the Heavens, Lord of the Sky, Daughter of the Dawn and Son of the Sea all cost fewer points.

*Tartarian Gate costs 12 gems and Gift of Reason costs 15.

*Arouse Hunger now costs 4 gems and creates 16 ghouls (instead of 2 gems and 9 ghouls).

*Tarrasque and Legion of Wights cheaper.

*Poison Golem cheaper.

*Several pretender auto summons toned down to make it harder to get an unstormable capital (infinite troop spam inside sieged fort).

[quantum_mechani]

Split Version.

[chrispedersen]

Great job Qm!

Comments:

I don't see the reason for the GOR change. Great spell often used.

Id rather see tree lords with an auto summon of a vine ogre or vine man, rather than a nature gem.

But very cool anyway!

[hEad]

You know, i have really grown to love this mod - indeed, i don't play anymore with out it. I just have to thank you for work you have done - it has made a truly remarkable game extraordinary.

[Lingchih]

Yes, it's the best Mod going. I also only play games with it on.

[iceboy]

Agreed! Thanks for all of your hard work QM!!! :)

[Kuritza]

Great!
Cant help feeling that Tartarians could cost 15 death, since GoR is 15 nature now. In my experience, GoR is the main limitation anyway.

[Meglobob]

Thanks QM for updating this excellent Mod.:)

When you first started the conceptual balance mod for dom3 I hated it (was probably new and slightly stupid) but now I by far prefer playing conceptual balance mod games to vanilla games.

The conceptual balance mod makes so many spells, pretenders and units actually useful, rather then useless in vanilla. For example in one of my MP games, I am having a great time with stone/fire drakes being cast from multiple dragon masters. Thats 3 spells I wouldn't touch with a 10 ft pole in vanilla.

Thanks again QM and all who helped you for making this great game even better.:)

[Humakty]

The best about this mod, is that the rebalance of low level spells is a great boon to the AI, especially combined to NI maps(they are FORCED to recruit their mages from time to time), as the auto cast AI has less chance of selecting an useless spell.

So thanks for this tedious and boring work of updating regularly this awe + 99 mod. (don't forget your sunglasses !)

[zzcat]

Great!
Cant help feeling that Tartarians could cost 15 death, since GoR is 15 nature now. In my experience, GoR is the main limitation anyway.

+1, Even without GoR, Tartarians are great thugs on their own.

[chrispedersen]

+2 Anything to increase end game options. Tartarians are one of 2-3 main avenues.

Wonders what lankan was too expensive.....

[zzcat]

Lord Warden still has mapmove 1. Is it WAD?

[Executor]

A nice improvment, although I still think that Man is even more crippled in CBM due to higher resource cost of longbowmen and flaming arrows moved to ench. 5.

[darloth]

Was the autosummon really that much of a problem? The things in question still have a fair chunk of domsummons, and someone can (bar wishes) really only have one pretender...

I'm asking because I considered the best feature of most of the summoning pretenders to BE their autosummoning.

[darloth]

Oops, didn't spot this in time to edit. Nevermind.

Did you massively buff shade beasts? You set the cost to summon 15 of them to 70 death gems, and...

Well, I've never found them THAT useful :)

Edit: Just checked, and there's no change by ID number. I'm going to assume it was a typo and it should be 7 per 15?

[quantum_mechani]

Edit: Just checked, and there's no change by ID number. I'm going to assume it was a typo and it should be 7 per 15?Yup, that's what happened.

Freespawning pretenders could definitely be an issue, especially the lord of the gates shades (they can't even starve). I agree though it leaves those pretenders in a poor spot.

As for why the tart cost nerf was so modest, the problem is the more expensive the summon gets the more gigantic the advantage for those few players that can heal tart afflictions (with chalice or GoH). Not to mention making using tartarians as troops that much less attractive.

Also, while GoR was definitely used plenty before, the idea with making it cost less is for it to be used on a wider variety of units.

[chrispedersen]

Man could probably be helped with national versions of flame arrows.

Other suggestions would be a song of winds that was a 10+ AoE arrow fend, that only lasted while the song played.

One other more general interesting spell would be something like burst of fertility. Increased population growth, lower unrest.

[P3D]

Now the Lawgiver looks very strong, i'd say no-brainer for MA Mictlan. New path cost 40 (was 50), starting dom 3 (was 2) and A1S2N1 (was A1S1N1).

Assuming S9 bless and 6-7 DOM, the change is the equivalent of more than 100 design points.

[chrispedersen]

P3D - see my post on MA-Mictlan strategy thread.

The lawgiver makes an interesting alternate stratgy available for MA mictlan - but it is still sub optimal to FW bless.

Now, if he was A1S2D1 / F1A1S2 / or even W1A1S2 it would be enough to probably make him the dominant MA pretender. But, by a nose, the oracle still has it.

[Jarkko]

Man could probably be helped with national versions of flame arrows.
Interesting point, and *very* true!

Machaka also very dearly in my opinion would need a national version of flaming arrows. Even though Baalz have written a very excellent guide on how to take advantage of the spiders, and even though Machaka *can* eventually cast the flaming arrows in CBM (unlike Man, who just are totally screwed there) it still would great IMO to actually be able to cast it when the flaming arrows still are useful (at least I usually get around to flame arrows in CBM when everybody already have the counters available to basically nullify the spell, thus making it less than attractive to go for).

[chrispedersen]

Man could probably be helped with national versions of flame arrows.

Other suggestions would be a song of winds that was a 10+ AoE arrow fend, that only lasted while the song played.

One other more general interesting spell would be something like burst of fertility. Increased population growth, lower unrest.

Hmm.. And man should probably have a unit: High King's Tax Collector. Causes unrest, but a negative cost.

[Burnsaber]

Wouldn't that cause constant cheating messages?

[P3D]

Well, for an FW bless the only disadvantage of the Lawgiver vs Oracle is Dom3 Dom4 - and you have two additional paths, and neither A4 nor N4 are useless.

P3D - see my post on MA-Mictlan strategy thread.

The lawgiver makes an interesting alternate stratgy available for MA mictlan - but it is still sub optimal to FW bless.

Now, if he was A1S2D1 / F1A1S2 / or even W1A1S2 it would be enough to probably make him the dominant MA pretender. But, by a nose, the oracle still has it.

[quantum_mechani]

Well, for an FW bless the only disadvantage of the Lawgiver vs Oracle is Dom3 Dom4 - and you have two additional paths, and neither A4 nor N4 are useless.


Typical MA Mictlan uses s9f9 though... so the lawgiver is best if you want to lay down some extra minor blesses but the oracle is still the choice for semi-decent scales with your bless.

[paul16120]

After installing this mod and enabling with under mod prefences the game craps out with the german 'FAIL' box as well as this error message: "name2spell: no such spell".

I've delted and reinstalled the mod with no change - the 1.41 mod worked fine.

Any ideas?

[quantum_mechani]

Are you sure you have the most recent patch?

[chrispedersen]

After installing this mod and enabling with under mod prefences the game craps out with the german 'FAIL' box as well as this error message: "name2spell: no such spell".

I've delted and reinstalled the mod with no change - the 1.41 mod worked fine.

Any ideas?


Are you sure you're not using it with another mod? Could be caused by a different mod, or a conflict between the mods.

[Dragar]

Rather than a flaming arrows version I'd be inclined for the spell to just make them AP. That way it wouldn't be as strong and wouldn't require the Fire caster that is hard for Man to get hold of.

An Ench 4 with E2 requirement sounds about right to me, not too easy to get but not too hard either.

In terms of the Tarts I think the combination of changes will just strengthen the strategy. If GoR is going down for other reasons I feel Tart cost should rise further - I don't see how Chalice/GoH holders are not better off compared to everyone else by this. They are the only ones who can really make the strategy powerful, and it just got sweeter.

In order to separate the use of GoR for other purposes, would it be feasible to have all Tarts start as commanders, but up the death cost dramatically? That should stop mass production - massing gems of one type in very large numbers is harder than moderate numbers of two, excepting gem types that can be produced by items.

[P3D]

Tartarians are dirt cheap compared to other SCs, but can the spell be modded as suggested?
Even 50 gems would be less than the usual SC cost if it is guaranteed to be commander.
To decrease the advantage of the Chalice/GoH, their initial afflictions should be reduced (esp. with higher proce).

About Man.
Give them an additional path. Say Mothers with N+100%AN+110%WAEN (not N+200%AN).
Perhaps access to the lower-level angelic summons.
Make the Warden everywhere recruitable?

[paul16120]

There are no other mods! :)

Didn't have the latest patch - thank you.

[Edi]

Did you remove the Marverni hornblower pretender? That has been a really annoying bug in the Worthy Heroes section of this mod and it can't be commented out. Needs to be removed entirely.

[Starshine_Monarch]

Did you remove the Marverni hornblower pretender? That has been a really annoying bug in the Worthy Heroes section of this mod and it can't be commented out. Needs to be removed entirely.

It seems that he did remove that bug. I wonder if he shows up as a Marverni Hero like he's supposed to now?

[Illuminated One]

Concerning Sea of Ice:

Once R'lyeh can wish it's a much too cheap way to defend.
Dispel 30 pearls > Wish for gems + Sea of Ice 18 pearls

[vfb]

@QM: Thanks for the new version! I like the idea of a cheaper GoR, it's one of the spells that makes this game fun.

@Illuminated One: Sea of Ice works both ways. It's not much of an advantage to be stuck in the water, there are a lot of spells he can't cast underwater. Once the Ice is up, it should be easier to eliminate R'lyeh's presence on land. Second, you can try to fill up the global slots. Base cost becomes less important when there are 5 globals up, each boosted by hundreds of gems.

[Poopsi]

I have to ask: why nerf the Moloch even further? It's not like he gets much use as it is. Not enough of a SC to be thrown around, and magic paths too expensive to stray from the two original ones.

Methinks he should either get cheaper paths, and boost it from that side, or get his combat status boosted (with an AOE attack, maybe? Or perhaps recuperation? Limp molochs are a sorry sight)

[Illuminated One]

Hmm, you are right about 5 globals.

But still early on it can be a very powerful spell.
I blitzed a much stronger LA Atlantis by casting it and if he wants to counteract I just could recast it for less (even without wish I count 35 w as less than 30 s).

Or consider locking in an Oceania with 50 provs on turn 25...
There's nothing he can do to defend his lands.

[chrispedersen]

I think you should consider decrementing the effect that order has on income to 6%. And incrementing the effect that productivity has to 5%.

This will give a large boost to

agartha, abysia, jomon, oceania, bogarus and machaka.

It will also do a bit to make the choice of 03 M2 decision not necessarily a no brainer. And I'm kind of surprised we haven't talked about it before.

[Edi]

Took a look at the mod at work. Looks good and no comment on the balance things and alterations as such, but typos abound still. I can do a once-over of those and see how it turns out.

[Tichy]

I didn't check the thread to see if anyone else mentioned this, but there's a typo (I assume) in the .dm file. Shade beasts cost 70 gems right now.

In any case, thanks for this great mod, I've been playing it quite a lot lately.

[AndonSage]

I found a discrepancy between the CBM 1.5 readme and the actual spell, and I don't know which is wrong.

The readme shows:

-Call Horror-
Fatigue: 200 (300)
Gem cost: 2 (3)
Blood magic needed: 2 (3)
Astral magic needed: 2 (3)
Research level: 5 (6)

However, Call Horror is actually in the game as a Blood level 4, not level 5, spell.

[P3D]

I was playing EA Atlantis a bit, and noticed that the description of the War Shambler says they are equipped with Coral Glaives, while their weapon is Coral Spear. The same discrepancy exists in vanilla.
That'd give them +6 damage for the cost of 1 attack and defense score. Giving them a glaive and increasing their attack score should help their mediocre combat troops. Or just remove those penalties from the coral glaive.

[chrispedersen]

CBM1.5 cut the seduction rating of all units except satyrs in half, so that the ratings are now below what they were in the vanilla game. (And once again, seduction never works).

[Black Sun Empire]

EDIT: Worked out the answer myself.

[quantum_mechani]

CBM1.5 cut the seduction rating of all units except satyrs in half, so that the ratings are now below what they were in the vanilla game. (And once again, seduction never works). Standard (vanilla) seduce value is 10, most seducers got changed to 12.

[chrispedersen]

As far as I saw, they all got cut to 12, except satyrs. I don't undestand the logic of that at all. Regardless, the combination of the MR check and then the seduction check means that once again seduction never works. I got 2 hits out of 54 attempts with oreiads.

A creature with a +5 awe due to beauty, should probably succeed more often than 2/54.

[Sombre]

Oreiad's have seduce 10 in vanilla. That's coming straight from the code. 12 in cbm is therefore a boost.

Succubus has 15 in its special seduction (the flying one) - this is boosted to 16 in cbm.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that they've been cut in cbm, other than perhaps bad results?

[chrispedersen]

They were 20ish in cbm 1.4 Or am I completely hallucinating?

[Sombre]

No they used to be stronger in cbm according to qm. But they proved a bit abusive.

[Sombre]

How about making Pythium's emerald guard poison immune? It would make them a perfect compliment to hydra (the other mapmove 1 heavy) and a bit more exciting. It could easily be justified - the eastern provinces of rome often featured stories about how people had eaten poisons at a young age and become immune (the most famous being mithridates of Pontus) - they could be the imperial food tasters as well as bodyguards.

[chrispedersen]

Why does pythium need a boost at all?
Additionally, they the empire legion were the guardians of the emperor... I can't see it as thematic.

Clouds of billowing poison.. dangerous creatures... and you're toting around tonnes of armor?

[Gregstrom]

Clouds of billowing poison.. dangerous creatures... and you're toting around tonnes of armor?


Wouldn't you?

[chrispedersen]

Clouds of billowing poison.. dangerous creatures... and you're toting around tonnes of armor?


Wouldn't you?

Nooo.. if I were elite troops, I would be telling the grunts to handle that god foraken creature.

[Gregstrom]

Delegation... truly it is the tool of heroes. :D

[llamabeast]

It would make more sense for LA than MA Pythium.

[Squirrelloid]

Anything can be made to make sense, when it comes down to it. I think the initial point was the unit is underused at present because it has map-move 1 and is therefore a strategically poor choice. Were it to compliment hydrae it would have a use and therefore actually see play.

[Sombre]

Why does pythium need a boost at all?
Additionally, they the empire legion were the guardians of the emperor... I can't see it as thematic.

It wouldn't really boost pythium and that isn't the point - it's more to give emerald guard a more defined role and increase tactical choice. That's what cbm is all about.

I don't really understand the additionally part. I don't think it presents any strong theme problems. Maybe poison res would make more sense than poison immunity on that front, but man poison res can be a pain in the *** to actually make use of. It definitely wouldn't help using them with hydrae.

[Squirrelloid]

Balance request:
The event: "your lab burns down" is seriously punitive to the point of being ridiculous. Games can be lost just because you got this event year 1. I'd argue it should be removed from the game.

Losing your lab costs you:
500 gold - which can be most of your income early on, assuming you can even rebuild it.
At least one turn's worth of research.

Lose all your research and miss a turn buying units? That's just stupidly awful. In a MP setting its game over - it'd be tempting to turn AI after getting it early on.

Basically, this is perhaps the most damaging event in the game, and its not even all that rare (i've seen it with Lk3 scales). Its very existence unbalances the play environment - just because its mostly random who or when someone gets screwed doesn't mean it doesn't skew game results or isn't unfair for the player(s) effected.

[Dragar]

I don't find it's that bad.. not worse than bad plague events that's for sure

One turn's buying mages is no big deal - you are normally cash limited early anyway so you make it up the next couple of turns in useful purchases. One turn's lost research hurts but again isn't excessive, and further into the game you can choose to spread out your mages or take the risk.

The rebuild cost is possibly the worst of it early on, but again it isn't a game killer, and if you took misfortune scales, well, that's the cost.

[Squirrelloid]

I don't find it's that bad.. not worse than bad plague events that's for sure

One turn's buying mages is no big deal - you are normally cash limited early anyway so you make it up the next couple of turns in useful purchases. One turn's lost research hurts but again isn't excessive, and further into the game you can choose to spread out your mages or take the risk.

The rebuild cost is possibly the worst of it early on, but again it isn't a game killer, and if you took misfortune scales, well, that's the cost.

...

Have you been hit with the event:
-On turn 2 with a sleeping/dormant pretender and didn't buy a mage turn 1? No research or mages till your pretender wakes up!
-In year 1 with a heavy investment in mages and/or a research pretender? Losing the useful actions of 5+ commanders and 70+ rps in the first year is not ok.
-When 500 gold is most of your income for a turn?
-When you've been rushed and you need mages/research/access to gems to survive?
-When playing a nation that has no useful commanders aside from those requiring a lab?

The event is far more common than the plague event as far as I can tell, and you can minimize the chance of the plague event by taking growth scales (in addition to taking order to reduce event frequency). And I'd argue that for many nations, the plague event can actually be less damaging than losing their lab.

And if it was the only cost of misfortune scales it might almost be ok. Except you'll also get incessantly plagued by indie attacks on your provinces, get units cursed, and generally have bad stuff happen to you. Misfortune scales shouldn't be 'you lose the game' - well, maybe misfortune 3 could be that. And as i've already noted, i've seen this event year 1 with Lk3 scales! That's just stupid.

[chrispedersen]

I'm playing a game right now, and with +2 luck, in the first 5 turns, I've had earthquake(killed pop and temple), fire (burned lab), and plague.

[Squirrelloid]

I'm playing a game right now, and with +2 luck, in the first 5 turns, I've had earthquake(killed pop and temple), fire (burned lab), and plague.

I had a SP game i was trying to turn-bash expansion in. Lk+3. By the end of turn 8 the game was unplayable due to 3 overwhelming indie attacks (including one that put my capitol under siege), burned lab, and a capitol plague. Also numerous unrest and curse events. Number of positive events? 1 (woo, +15 province defense!). Combined with a really unlucky combat that lost most of my largest expansion army due to routing early (and my capitol getting sieged, so no retreat route), and there really wasn't much I could do.

Maybe more bad events need to become impossible with good luck scales as well? But I still maintain the lab burns event is really reamful.

[llamabeast]

Pointless discussion, since events can't be modded.

[Alpine Joe]

Still, luck should get some kind of boost in CBM I think. Or maybe reduce Order's gold penalty/bonus. Almost everyone still takes Order3/misf2

[Gregstrom]

Luck is already boosted in CBM.

Do you want a bigger boost?

[Alpine Joe]

Yes, I should have clarified, I think Luck needs a bigger boost, or order a nerf for turmoil/luck to be worthwhile for most nations.

[quantum_mechani]

Seems you really can't please everyone, I've recently had requests to remove the boost to luck.

[Aethyr]

I like it just the way it is.

[Gregstrom]

I can't really think of a good reason to remove the boost to luck, as it still doesn't seem to persuade most players out of Order/Misfortune.

[Sombre]

I also like it the way it is. I think the fact luck isn't popular doesn't necessarily mean it's underpowered - when I've used it the results have been satisfactory.

[chrispedersen]

Two possible suggestions:

1. Some heros for some nations are replicated across ages. In a multiage game this precludes one nation from getting them, if a different nation already has. Can each nations hero be given a different monster number. Ie., its not hard to use the copy function.

2. In the interests of conserving head room, perhaps a script could be written that strips monsters, weapons etc out if they nation using them is not in play.

ie., if Abysian isn't in use all modded abysian monsters, weapons, heros etc can be deleted.

[Sombre]

1. Are you sure that's true? Just because those ids are referred to by hero commands doesn't mean they're unique. I wouldn't think they'd interfere with each other. But if you've tested, fair enough.

2. What does that have to do with cbm?

[Gregstrom]

wrt part 2, that seems totally unnecessary. CBM uses 53 mosterIDs, 16 weaponIDs and 25 armorIDs. That's less than some nation mods (well, not the armour slots, but you'd need to be running an amazing number of mods to use the other 175), and there's demonstrably no absolute shortage of headroom currently - see my sig for said demonstration.

[Amonchakad]

Hi, I had a thought a moment ago while playing an SP game: what about giving the standard independent commanders map move 1?
It might actually make national troop leaders worthy of recruiting under some circumstances, because as of now they are quite worthless.

[Sombre]

That was the case in cbm in a previous version. Don't think it's the case now,.. it's hard for me to tell since I always play NI.

[quantum_mechani]

Hi, I had a thought a moment ago while playing an SP game: what about giving the standard independent commanders map move 1?
It might actually make national troop leaders worthy of recruiting under some circumstances, because as of now they are quite worthless.Yes, this was the case (as well as increased prices for indy commanders), but it was removed due to public backlash. Even the last vestige - normal indy commanders 40 instead of 30 - has had some complaints.

[chrispedersen]

QM:

Is why I am developing a batchfile to compile a mod.
In it, the player will ask questions: For example:

Lower Effectiveness Indy Commanders (Indy commanders set to mapmove 1, Cmd=30) ? If the player says yes, you add that bit of code into the mod.

This would allow really customizable games....

[Gregstrom]

QM:
For example:

Lower Effectiveness Indy Commanders (Indy commanders set to mapmove 1, Cmd=30) ?

I like the concept, although I wish you luck trying to give indy commanders 30 leadership.

[Trumanator]

Thought- Maybe make moon blades either one handed or AP? ATM they just don't seem powerful enough, as the vast majority of SCs depend on having high prot, and while the bonus against magical beings is substantial, I still think I would prefer to dual wield elf-banes, axes of hate, dusk daggers, use GCs, etc. If its meant as more of an anti-troop weapon then making it one handed would make me much more likely to use it since I could pair it with a shield.

Sort of OT- How exactly does the slay magic effect of the elf-bane work? I assume its some sort of MR roll? Similar question about the Smasher, how does its effect work?

[Huzurdaddi]

Thought- Maybe make moon blades either one handed or AP? ATM they just don't seem powerful enough, as the vast majority of SCs depend on having high prot, and while the bonus against magical beings is substantial, I still think I would prefer to dual wield elf-banes, axes of hate, dusk daggers, use GCs, etc. If its meant as more of an anti-troop weapon then making it one handed would make me much more likely to use it since I could pair it with a shield.


Don't forget that the x2 is after weapon damage+str (at least it was in Dom2). When a unit gets hit by a x2 or x3 damage weapon by any type of thugish unit it is generally toast.

[Trumanator]

Thought- Maybe make moon blades either one handed or AP? ATM they just don't seem powerful enough, as the vast majority of SCs depend on having high prot, and while the bonus against magical beings is substantial, I still think I would prefer to dual wield elf-banes, axes of hate, dusk daggers, use GCs, etc. If its meant as more of an anti-troop weapon then making it one handed would make me much more likely to use it since I could pair it with a shield.


Don't forget that the x2 is after weapon damage+str (at least it was in Dom2). When a unit gets hit by a x2 or x3 damage weapon by any type of thugish unit it is generally toast.

I realize that, but personally, I would be much more likely to build a Gate Cleaver, or any of the other above named items. Moon blades are just too specialized, and the 2h status means they have to compete w/GCs and Flambeaus, 2 far superior weapons.

[LDiCesare]

Rather than threadjack another thread, I'd like to point out a few things I dislike in CBM:
-Phoenix pyre for the phoenix is miho overpowered.
-Umbrals at Conj7 instead of 5 ruins EA Agartha.

I understand phoenixes are rather bad in vanilla, but turning them into SC's usable for early expansion seems exaggerated to me. Would you rather have a great bull of a phoenix for initial expansion for instance?

Umbrals are strong, yes. But then what else does Agartha has for them? Rhuax and Barathrus Pact, but Ehuax isn't really awesome and that's about it. Needing Conj7 means EA Agartha needs to find something else to jsut survive until they get to the umbrals, but what? Their troops are still poor, and their mages need schools other than Conj to be useful on the battlefield, which delays umbrals further. Were these nice undead so overpowered EA Agartha dominated the EA? I don't think so.

[chrispedersen]

Regarding the umbrals. I completely agree. I've made the same point a couple of times. So in my balance mods - I knock it back down to conj 5.

Regarding the phoenix - I don't think he's overpowered - great for early expansion, only fair after that.

[Sombre]

Strengthening EA Aggy by putting umbrals back at their lower research level would run counter to the concept behind CBM because the umbrals would still be rather overpowered and would reduce the realistic options for the nation by virtue of their power. I think other elements of EA Aggy should be strengthened instead.

Umbrals are a bit like tarts or jaguar fiends in that they're just crazy cheap for what they do.

[Trumanator]

Phoenix right now is just fine IMO. There aren't a lot of nations that can get much use out of his paths, and while he rapes indies, against human opponents the lack of slots blows.

Umbrals- Sombre kinda has it IMHO. Honestly, I think he should just make the sacreds a bit better, or make some of their troops actually good.

[chrispedersen]

Regarding umbrals: They are not crazy cheap. You get *one* per summoning. And it takes a mage action to do so. And then you have to Gift of Reason them to thug them.

Never mind that you have no viable nature pretenders - so getting a nature path is painful on top of your high cost, high resource units.

Plus you are *well* into mid game before you get access to umbrals.

[chrispedersen]

umbrals would still be rather overpowered and would reduce the realistic options for the nation by virtue of their power. I think other elements of EA Aggy should be strengthened instead.

Umbrals are a bit like tarts or jaguar fiends in that they're just crazy cheap for what they do.

WHAT realistic options for Agartha? They *have* none.

Regarding umbrals: They are not crazy cheap. You get *one* per summoning. And it takes a mage action to do so. And then you have to Gift of Reason them to thug them.

Never mind that you have no viable nature pretenders - so getting a nature path is painful on top of your high cost, high resource units.

Plus you are *well* into mid game before you get access to umbrals, as regardless of how much you might wish it you have other research priorities.

More or less awake pretender is required to survice. Good scales are required for units - and you have mediocre mage paths.

[LDiCesare]

From another thread:
CB is ever a work a work in progress, certainly not every change turns out to be a good one. But corrections usually take feedback and debate on the subject, something that crops up suprisingly rarely. It doesn't generally take a lot reverse a CB change, a good argument or just a number of people all agreeing the change is bad.

Of course, perhaps if you consider half of all CB changes unbalanced this may seem far too steep a road to travel. If you still play in CB games though, seems worth a little effort though.

Oh, and I don't really think balance discussion is far off topic in a game thread, after all most balance has a direct effect on the very game we are playing.
I don't think half of the changes are unbalanced. I think there are a few changes which unbalance a lot.
I think EA Agartha is made worthless by CBM, and it's one of my favorite EA nations.
I dislike the fact that I learnt stuff in Vanilla and must learn anew in CBM, but that's just me being lazy.
I also dislike the fact that some changes turn nations into very different beasts between vanilla and CBM (Bogarus and horrors strategy coming to mind).
I know that CBM is popular, and so popular that most games are CBM now and no longer CBM, which I regret for the abovementioned reasons. I can see that there's been a lot of work put in it, and a lot of thinking too.

Now that you've heard my gripes, here is some hopefully constructive feedback and questions.
Be warned, this will be long. I'm picking from the changelog.
Also note I do not have extensive MP experience so I may be doing things that are considered worthless or stupid by better players.

I hope you won't consider this list of "I don't like" offensive, I wouldn't write it if I didn't think CBM is a good work. I'm also not commenting on the good changes because, actually there'd be too much to say.

-Gloves of the gladiator number of attacks increased: Was it really needed? I had some success with these in Vanilla.
-Amphiptere a commander: I know they aren't worth much but flavor wise I don't understand why thy are commanders.
-Cheaper titan pretenders: Not sure it was needed.
-Phoenix turned into an early expansion machine. I think it's cheap for what it provides. I think someone who wants an early expansion machine should pick a great white bull and I'm not sure it's still worth buying even in CBM?
-independant commanders slightly more expensive: I don't like. Sure, national non mage commanders aren't recruited, but paying 10 or 20 more for an indie leader won't change that. I pay 60 in vanilla to get a knight commander on turn 2 if I can't have another indie commander, so making them cost 50 or 60 wouldn't change my priorities but upset me a lot. I don't think changing the price of indy commanders fixes the problem of not recruiting nationals, so it should be dropped or another solution found.
-staff of corrosion: I'm not sure it changes much to lower its level. When playing T'ien Ch'i, I often have mages cast acid bolts or rain. They can forge the staff, but since they often lead armies themselves, there's noone to give the staff to. If it cost less gems, I migth give it to an indie commander, but then between a commander + 1 mage-turn of forging + the gems and building a mage that can cast acid bolt, I don't really find it interesting. Of course, T'ien Ch'i acid-able mages are capital only so on a big map it may be different, but I'll generally prefer a mage over a commander + 1 mage-turn + a 15-gem-item. Right now I think the change makes Construction more interesting than Evocation, and I don't think it's needed.
-catoblepas: I liked them at 15, but if they aren't used much mayb ethey were too expensive.
-eater of the dead: Do the changes make it more interesting to summon one considering it's always going to backfire and looks even worse when feral now?
-slime: ok it was mostly useless, but it was the only spell some water mages could cast and they would cast it. What does the change try to accomplish? Make water magic somewhat useful in combat at low Evocation? Why?
-blindness: Isn't 2 a bit early?
-ligthning bolt: Why make it weaker?
-the kindly ones: when someone casts that and I have blood mages, I want to dispel it asap. It usually costs me 3 mages before I can dispel, whihc costs at least 30 gems. Having the spell cost only 30 means I should always cast it and cast it again every turn if an opponent of mine plays blood since we'll both lose 30 gems but he'll also lose 3 mages. So I think it's so cheap it's a no-brainer and should always be cast is possible, unless all global enchantment slots are used by or needed for other enchantments.
-call lesser horror: I don't like the change. It turns SB into horror nations from the get go. Maybe I should just try to use it, but I think horrors should be R'lyeh only, and I don't think it's thematic for Bogarus to be horror casters.
-Heavenly Fires: I spammed them at 10 mana. At 8 it seems too cheap.
-Celestial Soldiers: Half-cost is a bit exaggerated in my opinion. I agree 15 was a lot, but 10 would be nice without lowering that much.
-Umbral: This just ruins EA Agartha imo. What do they have left to try to survive? Even the Barathrus Pact boost doesn't do much to change the situation. Lower gold prices for some troops don't mitigate their crappiness.
-Zmey: If those flew correctly, the cost might not have to be changed? I don't understand why they move as if they didn't have flying. I'd rather increase their APs and increase the cost a bit, maybe not up to the initial 8.
-Oracle: Giving fortune teller may look thematic, but I don't think it has any effect except boosting an already strong choice.
-Titan female: Why does hse get a research bonus superior to that of a sage?
-Lord of rebirth: Didn't need the boost in gems imo. He's a very good chassis for getting EN blesses and getting started in Death too, which complements well some nations he's available for.
-Grey knight: Does he need such a drastic gold decrease? I've not encountered enough to make heavy use of them, but I always wanted to build them. Probably just because I think they're cool.
-Tower guard and defender: Are Man LA so strong these need to be more expensive?
-Adonim: Ashdod can expand with 1 Adon built every turn early on and progress exponentially with these guys, yet their cost remains 400? If Talmai Elders cost more, Adonim should also cost more.

[Trumanator]

Now that you've heard my gripes, here is some hopefully constructive feedback and questions.
Be warned, this will be long. I'm picking from the changelog.
Also note I do not have extensive MP experience so I may be doing things that are considered worthless or stupid by better players.

I hope you won't consider this list of "I don't like" offensive, I wouldn't write it if I didn't think CBM is a good work. I'm also not commenting on the good changes because, actually there'd be too much to say.

-Gloves of the gladiator number of attacks increased: Was it really needed? I had some success with these in Vanilla.
Well, in the absence of complaints about being OPed, CBM changes are considered fine. I've seen a number of posts saying that GotG are only good in CBM.
-Amphiptere a commander: I know they aren't worth much but flavor wise I don't understand why thy are commanders.
Possibly, but then again, there's nothing that says they can't be either.
-Cheaper titan pretenders: Not sure it was needed.
Do YOU use the titan? He just doesn't have the utility of a number of other pretenders.
-Phoenix turned into an early expansion machine. I think it's cheap for what it provides. I think someone who wants an early expansion machine should pick a great white bull and I'm not sure it's still worth buying even in CBM?
Baalz suggested a bull for his EA Arco guide if you're wondering, see my previous post re: the phoenix. The bull is generally though considered a crappy expansion pretender, mainly because he lacks slots.
-independant commanders slightly more expensive: I don't like. Sure, national non mage commanders aren't recruited, but paying 10 or 20 more for an indie leader won't change that. I pay 60 in vanilla to get a knight commander on turn 2 if I can't have another indie commander, so making them cost 50 or 60 wouldn't change my priorities but upset me a lot. I don't think changing the price of indy commanders fixes the problem of not recruiting nationals, so it should be dropped or another solution found.
So mainly you don't like it cuz it annoys you? I wish a better solution could be found too, but it isn't that big a deal, and anything that encourages nationals is fine in my book.
-staff of corrosion: I'm not sure it changes much to lower its level. When playing T'ien Ch'i, I often have mages cast acid bolts or rain. They can forge the staff, but since they often lead armies themselves, there's noone to give the staff to. If it cost less gems, I migth give it to an indie commander, but then between a commander + 1 mage-turn of forging + the gems and building a mage that can cast acid bolt, I don't really find it interesting. Of course, T'ien Ch'i acid-able mages are capital only so on a big map it may be different, but I'll generally prefer a mage over a commander + 1 mage-turn + a 15-gem-item. Right now I think the change makes Construction more interesting than Evocation, and I don't think it's needed.
I'm confused by what your complaint here is. Is it that you still don't use it? How does it make Cons better than Evoc? A little more clarity would be appreciated.
-catoblepas: I liked them at 15, but if they aren't used much mayb ethey were too expensive.
Haven't used them yet, so I can't comment.
-eater of the dead: Do the changes make it more interesting to summon one considering it's always going to backfire and looks even worse when feral now?
Confused about your complaint here too. I'm assuming you think its still not cheap enough/easy enough to cast?
-slime: ok it was mostly useless, but it was the only spell some water mages could cast and they would cast it. What does the change try to accomplish? Make water magic somewhat useful in combat at low Evocation? Why?
Your point? Slime is great, if anything it lets your W mages cast SOMETHING semi-useful
-blindness: Isn't 2 a bit early?
It doesn't work too much against early SCs, and by the time you get to late SCs you have better things to cast. Do you use it a lot?
-ligthning bolt: Why make it weaker?
So people might use Orb Lightning, and because A magic is pretty ungodly good.
-the kindly ones: when someone casts that and I have blood mages, I want to dispel it asap. It usually costs me 3 mages before I can dispel, whihc costs at least 30 gems. Having the spell cost only 30 means I should always cast it and cast it again every turn if an opponent of mine plays blood since we'll both lose 30 gems but he'll also lose 3 mages. So I think it's so cheap it's a no-brainer and should always be cast is possible, unless all global enchantment slots are used by or needed for other enchantments.
What nation besides Machaka is going to cast this?
-call lesser horror: I don't like the change. It turns SB into horror nations from the get go. Maybe I should just try to use it, but I think horrors should be R'lyeh only, and I don't think it's thematic for Bogarus to be horror casters.
Why should horrors be R'lyeh only? Plus this makes MA Aby and Bogarus MUCH better in the early game. Its still tough to use unless you're basing a strategy on it.
-Heavenly Fires: I spammed them at 10 mana. At 8 it seems too cheap.
I don't play TC much, so IDK.
-Celestial Soldiers: Half-cost is a bit exaggerated in my opinion. I agree 15 was a lot, but 10 would be nice without lowering that much.
Same as above.
-Umbral: This just ruins EA Agartha imo. What do they have left to try to survive? Even the Barathrus Pact boost doesn't do much to change the situation. Lower gold prices for some troops don't mitigate their crappiness.
I agree to a point, but I think 6 would be fine. I would prefer that Agartha's troops get a major boost.
-Zmey: If those flew correctly, the cost might not have to be changed? I don't understand why they move as if they didn't have flying. I'd rather increase their APs and increase the cost a bit, maybe not up to the initial 8.
Haven't played Bogarus, so IDK.
-Oracle: Giving fortune teller may look thematic, but I don't think it has any effect except boosting an already strong choice.
It doesn't do much, so no big deal to me.
-Titan female: Why does hse get a research bonus superior to that of a sage?
She HAS lived quite a bit longer, and its not like anyone uses her really.
-Lord of rebirth: Didn't need the boost in gems imo. He's a very good chassis for getting EN blesses and getting started in Death too, which complements well some nations he's available for.
I'm not sure about this, but until you get a lot of people thinking its wrong, its tough to know whether its true.
-Grey knight: Does he need such a drastic gold decrease? I've not encountered enough to make heavy use of them, but I always wanted to build them. Probably just because I think they're cool.
I don't know what these grey knights are? Indies?
-Tower guard and defender: Are Man LA so strong these need to be more expensive?
Agreed here.
-Adonim: Ashdod can expand with 1 Adon built every turn early on and progress exponentially with these guys, yet their cost remains 400? If Talmai Elders cost more, Adonim should also cost more.
Agreed

I hope you don't take any of my comments personally. I'm just stating my reactions to them.

[chrispedersen]

-Gloves of the gladiator- loved the change.
-Amphiptere a commander: I don't understand the change but I don't care about it either. Still not used.
-Cheaper titan pretenders: good change. Still not used.
-Phoenix love the change. an alternative to the cyclops.
-catoblepas: meh.
-eater of the dead: meh.
-Slime- love the change.
-blindness: Like the change.
-ligthning bolt: Why make it weaker?Agree with the change.

-the kindly ones: I love the change to this spell. The kindly ones *will* attack your mages, rumors to the contrary. The kindly ones are fairly easily defeated.

-Heavenly Fires: I have no problem with the any of the changes to TC. I play TC extensively and find them underpowered.
-Umbral: This just ruins EA Agartha imo. Completely agree with original poster. Umbral is the ownly redeeming value in EA Agartha. And you nerfed it.
-Zmey: Cannot be used reliably due to erratic behavior in dominons.
-Bogarus, Horrors: First, horrors are not the province of Rlyeh, who has no notive access to it. It is rather the province of blood nations. Bogarus, mictlan etc. Early horrors made bogarus playable rather. However, I do think they need a national spell rather than allowing already strong nations to have equivalent access.

-Oracle bonus is thematic - I like it.
-Titan female bonus is way to strong, as I opined earlier.
-I like the Lord of Rebirth as is. He is never used in vanilla. I would like to see him extended to Agartha, Ctis, Machaka, and others to name a few.
-Agree about Man LA
-Ashdod needs a major nerf

[quantum_mechani]

I appreciate the feedback, I hope other people also comment on these issues.


-Gloves of the gladiator number of attacks increased: Was it really needed? I had some success with these in Vanilla.
I have yet to see them used in any Dom 3 game, vanilla or CB. In fact I was even contemplating perhaps they are not boosted enough. Thinking about it, I think their unpopularity probably has to do with the Eye Shield, for 10n a generally more all purpose SC counter, that also lets you wield another weapon like a frost brand.


-Amphiptere a commander: I know they aren't worth much but flavor wise I don't understand why thy are commanders.
So you have a thematic objection to them being commanders? I don't see a huge issue with it, as they are not portrayed as particularly stupid creatures, why they should not be able to act independently (they still can't lead troops).


-Cheaper titan pretenders: Not sure it was needed.
Well, the problem is when you compare them to base game pretenders like the prince of death. More encumbrance and lack of protection make them much less suited to early expanding, so baring a few of them with a bless niche they need something to set them apart. I suppose I could have gone the other way and nerfed the best vanilla pretenders even more instead, but people already complain about those nerfs. The other question is, by making titans cheaper, what pretenders are they making unusable compared to base game?



-Phoenix turned into an early expansion machine. I think it's cheap for what it provides. I think someone who wants an early expansion machine should pick a great white bull and I'm not sure it's still worth buying even in CBM?
Well, first off, I think it's a hard argument that the great white bull is worse of an option in CB. 50 points cheaper, and more importantly for a trample pretender -1 enc and +2 reinvig. While it competes with the phoenix in CB, the base game equally costed PoD is far tougher competition.

But beyond that, I'm not sure the phoenix is that great an expanding machine. Most expanders pretenders can reliably take a province a turn from turn 2- the phoenix simply can't. And it also fares very poorly in pretender vs pretender fights.


-independant commanders slightly more expensive: I don't like. Sure, national non mage commanders aren't recruited, but paying 10 or 20 more for an indie leader won't change that. I pay 60 in vanilla to get a knight commander on turn 2 if I can't have another indie commander, so making them cost 50 or 60 wouldn't change my priorities but upset me a lot. I don't think changing the price of indy commanders fixes the problem of not recruiting nationals, so it should be dropped or another solution found.
That's a reasonable point, the current change doesn't do much, more a statement than anything else.


-staff of corrosion: I'm not sure it changes much to lower its level. When playing T'ien Ch'i, I often have mages cast acid bolts or rain. They can forge the staff, but since they often lead armies themselves, there's noone to give the staff to. If it cost less gems, I migth give it to an indie commander, but then between a commander + 1 mage-turn of forging + the gems and building a mage that can cast acid bolt, I don't really find it interesting. Of course, T'ien Ch'i acid-able mages are capital only so on a big map it may be different, but I'll generally prefer a mage over a commander + 1 mage-turn + a 15-gem-item. Right now I think the change makes Construction more interesting than Evocation, and I don't think it's needed.
I don't completely understand what you are saying, it doesn't change much to lower it's level, but it makes construction more interesting than evocation?


-catoblepas: I liked them at 15, but if they aren't used much mayb ethey were too expensive.

Even if they were decent at 15, the lack of use suggest people need a prod to look at them.


-eater of the dead: Do the changes make it more interesting to summon one considering it's always going to backfire and looks even worse when feral now?
All i can say is I never saw one summoned before the 1.5 changes, and now I've seen it summoned twice. By the time it goes rogue it's probably tart era, at which point there are a lot of thins to smack it down.


-slime: ok it was mostly useless, but it was the only spell some water mages could cast and they would cast it. What does the change try to accomplish? Make water magic somewhat useful in combat at low Evocation? Why?
People are always complaining water is the weakest path. But more relevantly, if I see something that is nearly useless and can try and make it so people would take it into consideration, I try to do that.


-blindness: Isn't 2 a bit early?

The eye shield is also research 2. Also, in dom2 Mackaka used to actually start with blindness and it wasn't even that amazing of a feature.


-ligthning bolt: Why make it weaker?
Just trying to bring it in lie with the other bolts spells. It is so much better than the others base game it's ridiculous.


-the kindly ones: when someone casts that and I have blood mages, I want to dispel it asap. It usually costs me 3 mages before I can dispel, whihc costs at least 30 gems. Having the spell cost only 30 means I should always cast it and cast it again every turn if an opponent of mine plays blood since we'll both lose 30 gems but he'll also lose 3 mages. So I think it's so cheap it's a no-brainer and should always be cast is possible, unless all global enchantment slots are used by or needed for other enchantments.
I'm not sure it's no-brainer, because it often comes after the caster's empire as well. In fact I once even had it kill the god that cast the global, dispelling itself. ;)


-call lesser horror: I don't like the change. It turns SB into horror nations from the get go. Maybe I should just try to use it, but I think horrors should be R'lyeh only, and I don't think it's thematic for Bogarus to be horror casters.
I hate to break it to you, but Bogarus uses horrors quite prolifically base game as well (just the send horror kind since the battle summon is so crappy). And, in fact, R'yleh has a horribly hard time using horrors in base game or CB.


-Heavenly Fires: I spammed them at 10 mana. At 8 it seems too cheap.
That's a pretty minor tweak to think is greatly unbalanced. I don't think I have ever heard anyone complain demons of the heavenly fire are too good.


-Celestial Soldiers: Half-cost is a bit exaggerated in my opinion. I agree 15 was a lot, but 10 would be nice without lowering that much.
Well, I'll leave that for others to comment on, but again i have not heard any other complaints they are too good.


-Umbral: This just ruins EA Agartha imo. What do they have left to try to survive? Even the Barathrus Pact boost doesn't do much to change the situation. Lower gold prices for some troops don't mitigate their crappiness.
This does seem to be a widely unpopular change. I still think it's justified, but maybe I will look at undoing it. Do you think +1 gem cost would be more acceptable?



-Zmey: If those flew correctly, the cost might not have to be changed? I don't understand why they move as if they didn't have flying. I'd rather increase their APs and increase the cost a bit, maybe not up to the initial 8.
I don't understand- they seem to fly just fine.


-Oracle: Giving fortune teller may look thematic, but I don't think it has any effect except boosting an already strong choice.


That's true, but the fortune telling is virtually useless for their traditional imprisoned bless role, while in theory making alternative strategies more viable.


-Titan female: Why does hse get a research bonus superior to that of a sage?

Mainly, because I think she needs it more (rainbows get a bunch of extra research from magic picks). Also, it doesn't seem a goddess of knowledge should necessarily be less good at research than an uppity human sage.


-Lord of rebirth: Didn't need the boost in gems imo. He's a very good chassis for getting EN blesses and getting started in Death too, which complements well some nations he's available for.
I'll admit, he is not horrible without the gems for some nations. But that is purely due to happenstances that they lack those paths, I was hoping to make him more an option for other nations.


-Grey knight: Does he need such a drastic gold decrease? I've not encountered enough to make heavy use of them, but I always wanted to build them. Probably just because I think they're cool.
Indeed, I think they are very cool myself, which is why I'd like to feel like finding them is a real benefit.


-Tower guard and defender: Are Man LA so strong these need to be more expensive?
Not exactly, but they certainly make Man's other troops look bad. Keep in mind CB is not mostly about nation balance, it's about option balance. I could look again at making the other stuff cheaper instead, but keep in mind other people have complained about troops being arbitrarily cheaper in Cb (I like to keep to rules like spear = -1 gold). It's easier to increase cost for elite troops since it's vague exactly how how much bonus stats are worth gold wise.


-Adonim: Ashdod can expand with 1 Adon built every turn early on and progress exponentially with these guys, yet their cost remains 400? If Talmai Elders cost more, Adonim should also cost more.That seems a reasonable change.

I am curious though, you said a few changes in CB unbalance things a lot, which of these do you think do that? Most seem like rather niche things (like national spells), thematic complaints, or even just additional change requests CB hasn't made.

[LDiCesare]

-Cheaper titan pretenders: Not sure it was needed.
Do YOU use the titan? He just doesn't have the utility of a number of other pretenders.

Yes I do. Ladies of love, lords of rebirth in particular.

-independant commanders slightly more expensive: I don't like. Sure, national non mage commanders aren't recruited, but paying 10 or 20 more for an indie leader won't change that. I pay 60 in vanilla to get a knight commander on turn 2 if I can't have another indie commander, so making them cost 50 or 60 wouldn't change my priorities but upset me a lot. I don't think changing the price of indy commanders fixes the problem of not recruiting nationals, so it should be dropped or another solution found.
So mainly you don't like it cuz it annoys you? I wish a better solution could be found too, but it isn't that big a deal, and anything that encourages nationals is fine in my book.

Yes it's annoying as in not fun and that's not good in a game. You need leaders to just ferry troops around. Making them expensive isn't really a good option. It doesn't encourage nationals in my book. As I said, I would pay for a 60 gold indie leader if I can recruit a mage. I think the move is unneeded and without any good effect. It'll cost about 10 gold on first turns and that's about it. It also has very little effect for nations whose mages have good leadership.

-staff of corrosion: I'm not sure it changes much to lower its level. When playing T'ien Ch'i, I often have mages cast acid bolts or rain. They can forge the staff, but since they often lead armies themselves, there's noone to give the staff to. If it cost less gems, I migth give it to an indie commander, but then between a commander + 1 mage-turn of forging + the gems and building a mage that can cast acid bolt, I don't really find it interesting. Of course, T'ien Ch'i acid-able mages are capital only so on a big map it may be different, but I'll generally prefer a mage over a commander + 1 mage-turn + a 15-gem-item. Right now I think the change makes Construction more interesting than Evocation, and I don't think it's needed.
I'm confused by what your complaint here is. Is it that you still don't use it? How does it make Cons better than Evoc? A little more clarity would be appreciated.

Yes I still don't use it. It might be useful to go for Cosntruction rather than Evoc in order to get acid bolts earlier (through item).

-eater of the dead: Do the changes make it more interesting to summon one considering it's always going to backfire and looks even worse when feral now?
Confused about your complaint here too. I'm assuming you think its still not cheap enough/easy enough to cast?

It should be disposable/weaker in order to be worth the risk for summoning him. I can't think of many cases when I'd want to summon it whatever the cost right now.

-slime: ok it was mostly useless, but it was the only spell some water mages could cast and they would cast it. What does the change try to accomplish? Make water magic somewhat useful in combat at low Evocation? Why?
Your point? Slime is great, if anything it lets your W mages cast SOMETHING semi-useful

If it's great, why did it need a boost? Why should water mages be able to cast something that becomes more powerful than what Earth or Fire mages can cast at the same level?

-blindness: Isn't 2 a bit early?
It doesn't work too much against early SCs, and by the time you get to late SCs you have better things to cast. Do you use it a lot?

No, I don't. But having it at level 2 seems a bit too early. If it targets mages or archers, it can be nasty.

-ligthning bolt: Why make it weaker?
So people might use Orb Lightning, and because A magic is pretty ungodly good.

Leaves me unconvinced. Augmenting Orb lightning range would make it better without making lightning bolt less reliable against strong humans.

-the kindly ones: when someone casts that and I have blood mages, I want to dispel it asap. It usually costs me 3 mages before I can dispel, whihc costs at least 30 gems. Having the spell cost only 30 means I should always cast it and cast it again every turn if an opponent of mine plays blood since we'll both lose 30 gems but he'll also lose 3 mages. So I think it's so cheap it's a no-brainer and should always be cast is possible, unless all global enchantment slots are used by or needed for other enchantments.
What nation besides Machaka is going to cast this?

Do they have to have it cheap because they're the most likely to use it?

-Umbral: This just ruins EA Agartha imo. What do they have left to try to survive? Even the Barathrus Pact boost doesn't do much to change the situation. Lower gold prices for some troops don't mitigate their crappiness.
I agree to a point, but I think 6 would be fine. I would prefer that Agartha's troops get a major boost.

Maybe 6 would be ok IF the troops got a boost.

-Grey knight: Does he need such a drastic gold decrease? I've not encountered enough to make heavy use of them, but I always wanted to build them. Probably just because I think they're cool.
I don't know what these grey knights are? Indies?

Yes, indie ehteral knights. Very hard to balance/evaluate because you see them very very rarely.

[Ironhawk]

LDI, the trick with the staff of corrosion is to have low level water mages, not full-on acid capable mages use it. So your high level guy forges them, then your low level guys who have 1W and can cast Quickness use them to cast 2x acid bolts / turn. So it is more valuable that its easier to access now.

Basically I like all the changes in the latest round of CBM. I especially like that titans are cheaper since basically no one takes them. The gem bonuses are a nice touch - might need some balancing but overall good. One points LDI brings up intrigued me tho:

Indy commanders cost more? I hadnt noticed but I agree with LDI that this should not be the case. As the now-quite-old indy commander mapmove 1 debacle showed us: you cannot fix the national commander problem by messing with indy commanders. Indy commanders ARE the workaround to the game flaw of fort mage turns being so ridiculously valuable. Please dont nerf them or increase thier costs.

[Trumanator]

FYI, the titan researcher is only availabe to all Arcos, MA Pyth, and EA Ermor, who can easily have other priorities. ATM its just another viable option.

[Sombre]

WHAT realistic options for Agartha? They *have* none.


That's my point. Boosting umbrals again only makes this worse.

The fact you only get one doesn't make that much difference to LA Aggy for instance (which is plenty strong) - they're harder to mass but they're so cheap for how good they are that using your resources to do other stuff becomes a bit pointless. By moving them up in research it's much harder to rush to them and the hope is that it encourages other options. Now I personally think the other options need a boost, which is the whole point. With vanilla umbrals you hardly want to try anything else.

[LDiCesare]

I am curious though, you said a few changes in CB unbalance things a lot, which of these do you think do that? Most seem like rather niche things (like national spells), thematic complaints, or even just additional change requests CB hasn't made.
Mostly one change: umbrals. Without the change I will gladly play EA Agartha, with it I will not touch them, so it ruins an entire nation.
Also horrors. I don't think Bogarus needs them that much, and it boosts other nations without need.
I also admit that CBM needs rethinking a lot of things I learnt the hard way, and I should work more to learn it. It is not bad but makes me unhappy when I realise too late something was changed that I hadn't expected.

I appreciate the feedback, I hope other people also comment on these issues.


-Gloves of the gladiator number of attacks increased: Was it really needed? I had some success with these in Vanilla.
I have yet to see them used in any Dom 3 game, vanilla or CB. In fact I was even contemplating perhaps they are not boosted enough. Thinking about it, I think their unpopularity probably has to do with the Eye Shield, for 10n a generally more all purpose SC counter, that also lets you wield another weapon like a frost brand.

I used them with a lady of love who was quite efficient with them. A frost/fire brand + shield would have been stronger. They were still useful in expanding.


I don't completely understand what you are saying, it doesn't change much to lower it's level, but it makes construction more interesting than evocation?
If you want to get access to acid, instead of researching evocation you now research construction. I think at Cons 4 with a lower gem price it'd be better than Cons 2 with same price.


I'm not sure it's no-brainer, because it often comes after the caster's empire as well. In fact I once even had it kill the god that cast the global, dispelling itself. ;)
I think they only attack blood mages? Which can restrict the risk a lot.


I hate to break it to you, but Bogarus uses horrors quite prolifically base game as well (just the send horror kind since the battle summon is so crappy). And, in fact, R'yleh has a horribly hard time using horrors in base game or CB
That's a mostly thematic complaint. To me horrors are yet another stuff from beyond the world like R'lyeh are. I don't understand why russian-like people would use these, particularly when they have tons of national summons. I feel they shouldn't have to use horrors. That's not so much a balance issue as something I feel unthematic.


That's a pretty minor tweak to think is greatly unbalanced. I don't think I have ever heard anyone complain demons of the heavenly fire are too good.

I don't say it is greatly unbalanced. I just love them personally.


This does seem to be a widely unpopular change. I still think it's justified, but maybe I will look at undoing it. Do you think +1 gem cost would be more acceptable?

Yes.


I don't understand- they seem to fly just fine.

If I mass some of them and tell them to attack rearmost they never will unless I put some other flier in the group. They just crawl forward on the battlefield like they were turtles.


Mainly, because I think she needs it more (rainbows get a bunch of extra research from magic picks). Also, it doesn't seem a goddess of knowledge should necessarily be less good at research than an uppity human sage.

Maybe but if you have to choose between her and the human sage, why would you pick the sage?



-Tower guard and defender: Are Man LA so strong these need to be more expensive?
Not exactly, but they certainly make Man's other troops look bad. Keep in mind CB is not mostly about nation balance, it's about option balance. I could look again at making the other stuff cheaper instead, but keep in mind other people have complained about troops being arbitrarily cheaper in Cb (I like to keep to rules like spear = -1 gold). It's easier to increase cost for elite troops since it's vague exactly how how much bonus stats are worth gold wise.
I don't think the cost change makes much of a difference with regard to other troops. Spearmen sole use was they were 'fast'. Now axe and longspears are fast too. Unless I need mobility though, I still won't buy them over tower guards so the cost of tower guards/defenders doesn't do much to increase the value of the other units.

[quantum_mechani]

Mostly one change: umbrals. Without the change I will gladly play EA Agartha, with it I will not touch them, so it ruins an entire nation.
Also horrors. I don't think Bogarus needs them that much, and it boosts other nations without need.
I also admit that CBM needs rethinking a lot of things I learnt the hard way, and I should work more to learn it. It is not bad but makes me unhappy when I realise too late something was changed that I hadn't expected.
Heh, well that's a little deceptive to talk about CB unbalancing as much as helps, when the main problems only effect four out of 70+ nations (and one of them a thematic issue).

I'm really not sure what to make of your Bogarus/horror complaint, as your idea of theme seems to run directly counter to Illwinter's here. That said, on consideration I will probably make call lesser horror research level 2 instead of 1.


I used them with a lady of love who was quite efficient with them. A frost/fire brand + shield would have been stronger. They were still useful in expanding.


The issue is not if they can be used, it's if there is always a better option or not. As far as I can see (possibly even in CB) you would almost always rather an eye shield and any random weapon than the gloves.


If you want to get access to acid, instead of researching evocation you now research construction. I think at Cons 4 with a lower gem price it'd be better than Cons 2 with same price.

I don't think that's the case- the staves are at best a compliment to normal acid mages. It's like saying what's the point of recruiting more than one mage to cast acid bolt, more is always better (and there is generally a much harder limit on how many staves you can do than mages).

Which is not to say I'm particularly opposed to lowering the price. But if I did it would probably be because they weren't get used much as is.


I think they only attack blood mages? Which can restrict the risk a lot.

Not always. It's not entirely clear what the formula is for who they go after, but I think they often hunt people high in the HoF.


I don't say it is greatly unbalanced. I just love them personally.

Um, OK, not seeing the problem- you like them, they are cheaper, not greatly unbalanced. ;)


If I mass some of them and tell them to attack rearmost they never will unless I put some other flier in the group. They just crawl forward on the battlefield like they were turtles. Very odd, I'll try testing it myself. I don't think I will bump them back up in cost even if the problem is fixable though.


Maybe but if you have to choose between her and the human sage, why would you pick the sage?
The same reason anyone chooses a rainbow, for diversity, path combos and site searches. And besides that, pretenders only available to a few nations generally have to be a little better than ones available to almost everyone, or they will see almost no use.


I don't think the cost change makes much of a difference with regard to other troops. Spearmen sole use was they were 'fast'. Now axe and longspears are fast too. Unless I need mobility though, I still won't buy them over tower guards so the cost of tower guards/defenders doesn't do much to increase the value of the other units.I pretty much agree, I'm not very happy with how Man's troops stand (in either era). Not that I am any more happy with how they are base.

[LDiCesare]

Quote:
Originally Posted by LDiCesare View Post
If I mass some of them and tell them to attack rearmost they never will unless I put some other flier in the group. They just crawl forward on the battlefield like they were turtles.
Very odd, I'll try testing it myself. I don't think I will bump them back up in cost even if the problem is fixable though.
After more testing, the problem is not Zmey, but fliers with a 'fire' order. Instead of jumping/flying where they could shoot, they crawl to that point. I reproduced with cockatrices ordered to fire: They moved twice before spitting. Zmeys do the same. This could be fixed by giving more AP but it would be broken since storms should cripple their movement :(. Augmenting the range of the breath weapons could mitigate the effect.

[chrispedersen]

Somewhere or other, there is a whole other thread on the Zmey issue.

In my tests - they never fired - they always flew and engaged hand to hand.

there were some very good posts made about flying archers - someone speciically quoting caelum - but I do not remember the results of the conversation.

---------------------------------------------------------------

As for boosts to Agartha / Yomi - maybe QM would consider my changes?

But as for umbral I really think you need to return it to vanilla and then worry about how else to boost agartha.

----------------------------------------------------------------

As for bogarus... horrors being unthematic.. are you kidding?
Read the text on Baba Yaga... plus you have a whole series of strange creatures out of folklore...

Plus the race was inspired by russia - with Rasputin, mystics, secret societies....

Plust starets are one of the few mages innately able to summon/call horrors... Hell yes!

[Fantomen]

Reading this conversation, this is my opinion:

Put the Umbral back at conj 5 (perhaps increase path req to D2E1 so you are dependant on boosters to mass them?)

Keep Call Horror at Blood 1. This opens for a different form of expansion strat with some nations without being overpowered. Exactly what CBM is about I´d say.

Give the Ancient one a long spear.

[chrispedersen]

giving the agarthans non parryable boulders was nice -
Giving the agarthan long spears might help.. but clubs + Aoe1 nets would help more.

[Trumanator]

giving the agarthans non parryable boulders was nice -
Giving the agarthan long spears might help.. but clubs + Aoe1 nets would help more.

AKA sacred Horites? ;) lol

[chrispedersen]

Actually.. what would be really cool would be a weapon like a harpoon that made the stuck unit continuously easier to hit...

[vfb]

Seal Hunters (LA Atlantis) have harpoons, and they function as a net, so perhaps that's what you are looking for? The low precision of Agarthans makes me think they'd be better off with just plain nets though.

[Trumanator]

I am posting a list of heroes that I think still need improving in CBM/WH. For the most part, they are non-mage heroes, as I think that they are the most problematic and least scalable. I am going in the order that they appear in the saved game attached to the WH thread that shows them all.

Chuzrael the demonbred Slayer- MA Aby- While he shows up in an age where flying assassins are no longer available, his stats are pretty underwhelming. Defense and stealth level seem like the most obvious candidates for a boost.

Rago the Rage Lord- MA Aby- Not bad atm, but the 5 zerk on top of 6 enc sucks big time. Maybe an enc reduction or some natural reinvig?

Shudul Cthuda- MA Atlantis- 7 enc? Really?

Hierolagus- LA Pythium I think- Standard seems to be one of the usual buffs, maybe an even 20 prot wouldn't be amiss?

Knights of the Stone- Man I presume? Again, standard seems usual. The CBM Warhorse Hoof attack is probably supposed to be there as well.

Bernlad- Man- Not so bad I guess, though maybe 20 prot as well?

Rhianne- Man? Patently useless, though if the patrol bonus gets boosted a lot it could be interesting.

Hildegard - MA Ulm- Wouldn't be bad if she got 2A instead of the useless 1A.

Barthulf- MA Ulm- I _think_ this guy domsummons black knights, which is great. However, turning up the spawn could be... interesting.

Niklatu- C'tis- Rainbow armor should give reinvig no? Maybe awe too, his armor IS shiny and colorful! 100 poison res wouldn't hurt either. However, 4 Swamp Guards a turn isn't so bad.

Anthromachus- Arco- Immortality helps a LOT, but enc 9 not so much. A better weapon would help too.

Orokestes- Arco- not in need of such a boost, but 1 in 4 magics and 2 in S isn't THAT useful. would 2 in the elements be too imba? Would make him a much better site searcher anyway.

Angelique- MA Mari- Maybe some priest level and inquisitor status? Otherwise she kind of sucks.

Rams Head- Pan- Why enc 7?

Auluudh- Ry'leh- No paths that you can't get from recruitables? An extra level of S and W wouldn't hurt.

Abasi- Machaka- Once again, enc 7?

Mwaka- Machaka- Seriously? About the worst hero I've seen. Unless the apes are on par with LA Arco's or Bandar swordsmen. Or if you get a LOT of them.

Warenheris- EA Ulm- Maybe a bit more prot? At least average MR would be nice too.

Yukinaga- Shin- immortal helps, but boosting to D3 for Soul Vortex would be a great boost.

Cu-Chulain- Tir/Eriu- More fear perhaps?

Fianna- Eriu- Generally better stats? Prot in particular could be improved.

Antlered One- Dunno- Less enc would be nice?

Bapu- Lanka- Never heals is a bit harsh, otherwise general stat improvements would help.

Ninjas- Jomon- More defense would help a lot with assassinations.

Golden Naga- Patala- "Skilled fire magic user" means more than F2 to me. Also, I don't see why she can't have a chest slot?

Tomb Lord- LA C'tis- 10 enc!?! not to mention that F1D1 isn't particularly useful.

Possessed Flame Corpse- LA Agartha- If this hero actually has the flame corpse explosion effect, its actually not bad. If not...

The Houndkeeper- Man- Two Cu Sidhe a turn is decent, but seeing as you're not likely to have much of a bless...

[Burnsaber]

I was looking at the "Son of Sea" pretender. He's pretty useless, IMHO. All water nations already have good acceess to water magic and why would any UW nation bring air breathers underwater? Then I started thinking that isn't the gay basically Poseidon?

With a minor description change, you could add "storms" into his profile and give him W2A1 as starting paths. Then he'd at least give access to a new path.

[LDiCesare]

I was looking at the "Son of Sea" pretender. He's pretty useless, IMHO. All water nations already have good acceess to water magic and why would any UW nation bring air breathers underwater? Then I started thinking that isn't the gay basically Poseidon?

With a minor description change, you could add "storms" into his profile and give him W2A1 as starting paths. Then he'd at least give access to a new path.

Poseidon isn't so much a god of storms as he is the god of earthquakes so if he is an inspiration it should be Earth rather than his brother's Air that you'd want to add.

[Kuritza]

-blindness: Isn't 2 a bit early?
It doesn't work too much against early SCs, and by the time you get to late SCs you have better things to cast. Do you use it a lot?

Blindness is exceptionally good. Blind SC is a dead/useless SC; in CBM, any fire mage can easily counter SCs as soon as you start researching alteration. I can live with it, even though its stupid, but its stupid nonetheless.

[Sombre]

Except there's the small matter of the mr check?

[Burnsaber]

I was looking at the "Son of Sea" pretender. He's pretty useless, IMHO. All water nations already have good acceess to water magic and why would any UW nation bring air breathers underwater? Then I started thinking that isn't the gay basically Poseidon?

With a minor description change, you could add "storms" into his profile and give him W2A1 as starting paths. Then he'd at least give access to a new path.

Poseidon isn't so much a god of storms as he is the god of earthquakes so if he is an inspiration it should be Earth rather than his brother's Air that you'd want to add.

Yeah, that would work too. There point is that W3 titan is just useless for water nations. If it gave access to some other paths, it might be worthwhile. W2E1 would be good for blesses.

[Kuritza]

Except there's the small matter of the mr check?

I dont know if you wanted this answer to be ironic, but as far as I can tell, its not. MR check is a rather small matter indeed.

Every time I read 'MR over 18 is unpenetrable' I dont know if I should laugh or headdesk. When one failed check means death/charm/uselesness (and probably death), even MR 25 is a very poor protection. Unless, of course, you have to face just one unscripted mage in the rear of the battlefield who will cast one or two blindnesses obefore auto-routing with the rest of the now-slaughtered army.

Balance-wise, paralyze is lvl 4 (in a not-so-useful for the early game path) and requires S2. Also, keep in mind that Astral path is meant to be a primary counter to single powerful combatants.
Blindness is now lvl 2 in Alteration, which also contains all maneer of buffs, and only requires F1.

[Sombre]

No, it's not ironic. You may think I'm overestimating the utility of mr against blindness, soul slay etc, but I think you're underestimating it.

You said any fire mage could easily counter SCs with blindness. I simply don't believe this is true with the mr check. The math with mr checks has never really seemed to match what actually happens in the game, but I think you'd need a LOT of mages casting blindness to make 25 mr 'very poor protection'. We're not talking about anything more than 'one mage casting it twice' working here.

[Kuritza]

Math with mr checks never matched what actually happens in game indeed. :)
Sometimes you will need a lot of mages casting blindness, but sometimes first casting penetrates magic resistance and kills SC.
My friend once ran some VotD checks. It took him lots of tries to actually penetrate MR of a pretender God, just as math suggests. Later his opponent killed 2 of his SCs within three turns, with three to five attempts, dont remember exactly. Etc, etc.
Thus, rather high possibility of a F1 mage with Alteration 2 researched crippling/killing your pretender or equipped raider is hardly a good thing. Random element must be under control; imagine chess where Pawns can retaliate, killing attacking Queens and Castles by rolling 20. Pwns! :)

[Burnsaber]

I think blindness is fine the way it is. Even in CBM, fire is the second weakest path in the game. Why should all tricks of fire magic be negated by fire resistance?

[Kuritza]

Fire is not THAT weak. Its a very good evocation path, also some of the best items require fire (firebrands (hell yeah), dragon helms, flambeaus/holy scourges, lightless lanterns, fever fetishes, rune smashers, charcoal shields, shields of gleaming gold, several nice arts etc). The only thing it lacks is good summons - but hey, no one is perfect.
And even if fire was as weak as some of us believe, its not a reason to make fire better than astral at countering SCs. At the very least blindness should be Alt 4, as high as Paralyze.
Imho, of course.

[Squirrelloid]

I am posting a list of heroes that I think still need improving in CBM/WH. For the most part, they are non-mage heroes, as I think that they are the most problematic and least scalable. I am going in the order that they appear in the saved game attached to the WH thread that shows them all.

(list snipped)

The EA Atlantis hero who's basically a map move 0 living pillar. Give the guy some map move. I mean, he's a commander LP, so he's prime thug material, but he can't fricking go anywhere!

[Squirrelloid]

Suggestions for EA Agartha:

Look at the encumbrance for Oracles. 7 with no armor is ridiculous, imho, especially with cold blooded. These guys pass out after like 2 spells if their province gets hit with a snowstorm. And as the only really playable commander option...

Remove the attack penalty. Seriously. Its not like they had two eyes and lost one - they've had one eye their entire life. numerous other animals can only use one eye to see something at a given time, and are remarkably good at 'attacking' (most animals have one eye on either side of its head, which means there is little to no overlap in the field of vision of each eye). I can understand the precision reduction, but the attack reduction makes no sense.

[vfb]

Are you sure you're not looking at some guy with old age, or in a heat-3 prov? Oracles are base 5. You've also got super-easy access to Girdles, and can Summon Earthpower, and they are holy so you can get an earth bless too. You don't really need to wear armor either, just buff with Ironskin.

[kianduatha]

I've been wondering about boulder throwers, and I still haven't seen hardly anyone use them. It seems that even with the (greatly) improved attack, there's simply no real use for them(besides chumping down unsuspecting Adons, I suppose). Boulder throwers are supposed to improve damage outlay and help deal with high-defense troops. Of course these are very critical goals, especially for Agartha. But then why do we not see such a crucial niche filled, more often than not?

1. Range. Str/3 means that you can only have a very limited number of boulder throwers useful at any time--especially with their large sizes. Thus you cannot ever get a critical mass of them, even though there are several other considerations that would prevent such a thing(cost, for one, and friendly fire)

2. Ammunition. Two ammunition is fine on troops such as javeliners, who are also meant to be frontline troops. And if boulder throwers were meant to ever touch melee, that would be fine. Unfortunately, they have abysmal defense and easily die to even mediocre troops.

I'd suggest at least considering upping the range to maybe str/2 and/or pumping ammunition up to 3. It just seems that with a bit of tweaking, Agartha can get some of the killing power they need from stone hurlers.

[chrispedersen]

I use bolder throwers; I use them as hp sponges, in combination with a nature regen. Going from memory the units above them have fewer hp.

It would be fun to see the boulders increased, and made AoE1

[Fantomen]

They ARE AoE 1 in CBM, and quite effective. A minor blood bless pushes the range to 7, enough to throw them over a front rank of Ancient ones or other melee troops.

[Frozen Lama]

what about Jotun boulder throwers? they are pretty useless too

[kianduatha]

Minor blood bless, with Agartha? Egads. Never thought about doing that before. Blood stones would be nice to have, though. Given the metagame's tendency towards no gem generator games, though, I'm a bit leery of using that as a reason to keep them as-is.

They are indeed quite effective in CBM--at least when they're not hitting your own troops or wading into melee with their fists.

Edit: Jotunheim doesn't really feel the pain with boulder throwers(except for niche uses and sieging), mostly because they could recruit a javelin thrower instead; 20 range on their weapons, and a perfectly acceptable melee combatant to boot!

[chrispedersen]

They ARE AoE 1 in CBM, and quite effective. A minor blood bless pushes the range to 7, enough to throw them over a front rank of Ancient ones or other melee troops.

Hey thats a neat factzoid to remember. Thanks fant!

[Squirrelloid]

While i understand the desire to remove bloodstones because of gem gen, earth really needs a miscellaneous slot booster to replace it if its becoming unique.

Thinking on some different topics:

Magma Eruption - this should be castable underwater. seriously.

Bone Melter - this needs something done to it. AoE 1 means it tends to get dropped on worthless chaff by your mages, rather than high value targets. For a W3N2 spell that requires alteration 5, this is underwhelming. Either make it single target (so autotargetting will choose large monsters) or give it improved AoE. Possibly 1+ rather than 1 (so it kills enough chaff that you don't feel like you're wasting mage turns). I suppose another alternative is to make it W1N1 or W2N1 so you don't need to put boosters on most mages with W and N to be able to cast it. (Basically, the effect is not commensurate with the necessary investment of research time, gems for gear, and mage turns in combat).

Bone Melter is of course a natural spell for MA Oceania, and useable UW, so this improves their UW combat options (probably works for EA Oceania too). Magma Eruption is a natural for EA Atlantis's BKs. And having some alternatives to cold attacks, bad water offensive spells otherwise, and buffs would make UW combat less stupid.

[Sombre]

To make it target single high hp targets wouldn't be hard. You make a single target version with a nextspell of the aoe version.

[Burnsaber]

To make it target single high hp targets wouldn't be hard. You make a single target version with a nextspell of the aoe version.

Yeah, that would work, but it would force two mr checks on the primary target then (one for the main single targe spell and then a second check when AoE kicks in). That effect would make it pretty powerful insta-kill spell.

But I quess he spell could use the boost.

[Fantomen]

I was playing about with EA Agartha again. It came to me that a good and reasonably thematic boost would be heat preference 2. That would give them some points to buy a blessing and some heat to push against cold dominions.

With that change they would be good enough I think, and Umbrals could stay at conj 7.

[Sombre]

I think heat preference would be ok for agartha too, but it isn't really suggested anywhere in their descriptions etc. Though they do summon up fire elementals and earth elementals rather than water elementals, which suggests some ties with lava/geothermal stuff.

[Trumanator]

Uhm, if in 1.6 you are making bloodstones unique/removing them, do you think that maybe you can reduce the E level required for a lot of the higher level spells? w/out bloodstones, I think even a lot of real earth nations are going to have issues casting stuff like E attack, Deepwell, army of __, etc.

[Sombre]

There will hopefully be an earth booster to compensate, though it will not be without extra baggage (such as turning you into something or boosting nature).

[Squirrelloid]

I was playing about with EA Agartha again. It came to me that a good and reasonably thematic boost would be heat preference 2. That would give them some points to buy a blessing and some heat to push against cold dominions.

With that change they would be good enough I think, and Umbrals could stay at conj 7.

It wouldn't hurt. But taking heat 3 is already a law of playing Agartha anyway, so it doesn't actually give you any more points.

I also doubt giving cave dwellers a heat preference makes sense. What also doesn't make sense is cave dwellers being cold blooded in the first place. (Seriously, you get more than like 10' below ground and air temperature is constant and chilly.) Cold blooded only makes sense for things that are normally out in sunlight...

Edit: Support++ for reducing path requirement for Army of X spells and Weapons of Sharpness, and really, lategame army buff spells in general. The game favors thug/SC play way too much - making these spells accessible to regular mages would go a long way towards making armies actually viable.

[Sombre]

They might spend lots of time huddled around geothermal outlets.

I thought it was fairly warm deep underground, not chilly. I'm no expert though.

[Squirrelloid]

They might spend lots of time huddled around geothermal outlets.

I thought it was fairly warm deep underground, not chilly. I'm no expert though.

I was just in caves two weeks ago that had ice all summer while the temperature above ground was 90+ (Deg F).

Here's a decent link on the subject: http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/env99/env223.htm

Note that since many or most areas have seasonal temperature fluctuations, average temperature can be pretty chilly. In most of the US we're talking <=55 deg F.

(As you get deeper, cave temperature becomes more dependent on geothermal heat and less dependent on surface heating - which could lead to warmer or cooler caves depending on the area's average temperature. You have to go quite deep for geothermal to be 'quite warm' - deeper than any known natural caves and probably deeper than its possible to mine out tunnels.)

[P3D]

As you are getting even deeper in caves, you end up in groundwater eventually, before it could get to any hot. Removing cold blooded might be too much a boost, though.

[Fantomen]

I think heat preference would be ok for agartha too, but it isn't really suggested anywhere in their descriptions etc. Though they do summon up fire elementals and earth elementals rather than water elementals, which suggests some ties with lava/geothermal stuff.

They have the "rhuax pact" spell as a national summon, Summoning magma children with heat and fire power. So that sort of implies a connection to heat and volcanic heritage.

Also I think EA agartha absolutely needs to take heat scales anyway to defend against cold, which is a total killer for them. So pretender design wouldn´t change much anyway, you just wouldn´t lose the income.

Taking away cold blooded would be an alternative but I somehow feel that it is a strong part of the Agartha theme.

Why not just imagine that Agarthas caves run deeper than caves known to man, that they are connected with earth itself and it´s burning core?

[vfb]

Oh, you people are just not living close enough to any volcanoes. You can cook eggs in some 5' deep caves in Japan.

[chrispedersen]

I was playing about with EA Agartha again. It came to me that a good and reasonably thematic boost would be heat preference 2. That would give them some points to buy a blessing and some heat to push against cold dominions.

With that change they would be good enough I think, and Umbrals could stay at conj 7.

In my Balance mods, this is one of the steps I take to make the agarthas more competitive.

[Squirrelloid]

Why not just imagine that Agarthas caves run deeper than caves known to man, that they are connected with earth itself and it´s burning core?

Because at some point gravity just crushes the cave? Its not that there are no caves known deeper than that, its that there's a depth beyond which cave formation is *impossible* and supporting a tunnel structurally is *impossible*. The only reason magma pipes don't collapse is they're filled with magma, which is really dense.

Edit: before someone says it - if Agartha has magic powerful enough to achieve such a feat, (1) why are they bothering with the surface world? (2) Shouldn't they be able to move anywhere on the map from any territory? (3) They've already won, their magic is so awesome.

[vfb]

The Agarthan caves are filled with water, didn't you know? And it doesn't get pushed up to the surface because AWDI.

(1) Because they don't want to be near the seal when it breaks
(2) Have you looked at those fat-arsed Agarthan Oracles? They are lucky to have map move 2.
(3) Agartha will never win, because of teh PD.

[Kuritza]

(3) Agartha will never win, because of teh PD.

I think you mistake them for monkeys. :)

[Sombre]

It's sort of silly bringing our geography into this anyway. Who is to say the world of dominions isn't flat and heated from the bottom by a giant burning space squirrel.

[atul]

You silly man, it's turtles all the way down.

[Sombre]

Squirreloid informs me that my space squirrel 'proposal' is flawed; I just wanted to let people know before they cited it in their research.

[Fantomen]

Why not just imagine that Agarthas caves run deeper than caves known to man, that they are connected with earth itself and it´s burning core?

Because at some point gravity just crushes the cave? Its not that there are no caves known deeper than that, its that there's a depth beyond which cave formation is *impossible* and supporting a tunnel structurally is *impossible*. The only reason magma pipes don't collapse is they're filled with magma, which is really dense.

Edit: before someone says it - if Agartha has magic powerful enough to achieve such a feat, (1) why are they bothering with the surface world? (2) Shouldn't they be able to move anywhere on the map from any territory? (3) They've already won, their magic is so awesome.I´m not going to argue the scientific possibility of warm caves, frankly I don´t know **** about it.

My point was: Why not **** science in this case and use our imagination?

Edit: Damn that ****ing forum cencorship.:p

[RabbitDynamite]

No no no. First its the elephants, then the turtles.

[Gregstrom]

And the squirrel comes underneath the turtles, of course.