Oceania - Let's fix it. Mod discussion

[Burnsaber]

I'm now playing EA Oceania in the Faerun game, and I must admit that I'm starting to understand why no one seems to pick them willingly.

It's not just about the fact that the nation is weak, but it's just so.. bland, thematically speaking. Besides, Oceania seems to be the worst UW nation above water. They might* be the best UW, but its not really worth being pure suck above it.

I was thinking of doing a minor mod, which will add something to them. Just make them a bit more intresting.

I was thinking of giving Oceania human recruitables (only recruitable from land castles). Some tribal units (about the power level of Mictlan nationals) and shamans based on the people in philippines and south-east asia. I'll call then the "Dema" people and they worship the tritons and are thus in alliance with them. This is what I'm thinking so far:

Dema troops: like I said, some national land troops with mictlan-esque equipment. I'll probably make them wear some armor (turtle shells? sharkskin?), not thematical but necessary if they are to have some use. Probably a lightly equipped canoemen with nets & harpoons and the armored ones will wield spears & javelins

Headhunters: These will be something a bit more intresting. Somewhat based on the remote tribes which practice ritual sacrife and cannibalism (mostly devouring fallen foes to gain their strenght). There really is no ability to show the "gain power after each battle" thing, so they'll likely just be something along the lines of Ghoul Guardians of LA Ulm. But I was thinking to do something different. Perhaps these guys could avoid the transformation to ghouls by some ancient rituals or perhaps it's a blessing from a God of War? There many paths I could go with these, ideas welcome.

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Dema chief: will have sailing, due their people living in a cluster of small islands.

Headhunter "commander": If I make the headhunters ghoulish, this guy will likely have some undead leadership. Perhaps a minor chance for a blood pick. If I make headhunters sacred or something, this could be a minor priest.

Dema Shaman: F1N1H1 with 100% F/N/W/B pick. Wield very cumbersome ritual masks with enc 3 (some used by the tribes in RL weighed 80 pounds!). Mainly ancestor worship (hence N1H1) and the F1 is to introduce volcanic & tropical themes. (to get the point about tropical tribes through).

I was also thinking of making Taniwha(s) as national summons ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toniwha ). The "protecting" Taniwha's will be N2H1 summon, having a green lizard form in land and white shark form in water, perhaps somewhat thuggable, not sure about magic picks, holy is a no-brainer thought.

The "monster" Taniwha will have reddish lizard form in land and a black shark form in sea. Fire & blood in land, Fire & water in sea

All thoughts, ideas & comments are welcome. I'd like to restate the goals of this mod, thought.

1) Make Oceania slightly more powerful in general by giving them something to wield in land.

2) Make Oceania a lot more intresting nation to play. Both thematically & stragedically


* note choice of word, might, even that aspect of Oceania is very debatable

[Gregstrom]

I like this idea. Sharkskin armour for the tribesmen sounds right, and I have the vague idea that it might have been used historically.

For the headhunters, how about an undead secondform? Kill them once and they become an ghoul-type undead of some sort, but don't turn back after the battle. If you give headhunter leaders a tiny amount of undead leadership, then the undead won't flee the fight but will have to stay in the province after the battle is over, unless a shaman is on hand to take charge of them.

This might be a step too far, but... maybe make the undead form quite strong (good hp, str, att, and 2 claw attacks), but have it eat population (1/month or some other low number). Then you have this unit that's good for its price, but that you don't want to have in a garrison.

[Burnsaber]

The undead secondform is a nice idea. But, I don't know. I was thinking of something less drastic. Their cannibalism wasn't about delaying hunger, just gaining the power of the foe they had slain. So population eating is out. Definately nothing goody about it, but I'm still a bit leery of completely demonising them. Perhaps I feel that it would be a too "easy" path.

But now that I think of it, these guys would probably be very scary. Fear is too much on recruitables (the commander could have fear thought), but perhaps pillagebonus? Perhaps the devouring aspect could be played out something like this:

"Dema headhunters are feared for their practice of devouring their fallen foes. This practice goes a long way back, to the times when the land was filled with strange monsters and humans were few. In those times, the bravest Dema warriors defended the tribes against the monsters and devoured them to gain more strenght to defend the tribes. Those brave headhunters who honor their ancestors by continuing the practice are very strong and healthy, clearly as a gift from the ancestor spirits. They wield moko, protective tattoos made by the shamans."

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C4%81_moko a'k'a good hp, morale, and reinvogration, the "moko" is represented as some natural protection.)

[Gregstrom]

Yeah, fear would definitely be too much. I've looked into Kuru in case there was something workable there, but I don't think there is (Kuru's from the wrong type of cannibalism, after all).

I guess there's no way to have them reduce the number of corpses in a province after a battle?

Moko would be rather nice though. Skullface for head armour, maybe?

I did some random reading, and the idea of a cargo cult popped up. It's maybe not suitable for this mod, but in Dom3 a cargo cult could be really interesting. Native cultists with rituals that conjure up black steel armour and broadswords, all with 'need not eat' because they know the rite that conjures up barrels of salt pork...

[darloth]

That wouldn't be need not eat, that would be Supply Bonus. Quite a hefty one, I'd guess :)

The tribespeople ideas for Oceania sound fun though - I've tried them a few times in singleplayer, and... yeah. They're basically just the indie tritons with a few giant mermen that remind me slightly of Disney's The Little Mermaid. There's nothing -basically- wrong with that, but I'd love to see some more diversity in there and this sounds like a good way about it.

[Zeldor]

I am for improving their land abilities, but it should be combined with 2 things:

- their uber powers uw, there is no debate here, no other nation can challenge them, that's also why there is no big interest in any water nations, so either nerf their uw troops [especially knights] or make other nation troops better [well, mostly Atlantian]

- use mod disabling clams, that's the huge thing for Oceania and forces them to just turtle and make clams...

[Burnsaber]

- their uber powers uw, there is no debate here, no other nation can challenge them, that's also why there is no big interest in any water nations, so either nerf their uw troops [especially knights] or make other nation troops better [well, mostly Atlantian]

- use mod disabling clams, that's the huge thing for Oceania and forces them to just turtle and make clams...


Yeah, this mod will also slightly nerf the Knights of the Deep (-1 def, -1 att, +1 enc, perhaps slightly worse equipment). The knights of MA oceania are pretty useless (enc 8!) and ichtysatyrs are OK troops. Disabling clams would be quite a global change and I'd consider it outside the 'jurisdiction' of this mod. I'll recommend it, thought


Moko would be rather nice though. Skullface for head armour, maybe?


Sweet idea. I totally want to draw that, too. Could end up being more awesome than a barrel of radioactive monkeys. I'll probably start the graphical works this weekend, I'll make sure to post previwe picks here.


I did some random reading, and the idea of a cargo cult popped up. It's maybe not suitable for this mod, but in Dom3 a cargo cult could be really interesting. Native cultists with rituals that conjure up black steel armour and broadswords, all with 'need not eat' because they know the rite that conjures up barrels of salt pork...

That could be a sweet idea for LA Oceania. When the R'lyeh tentacle apocalypse hits underwater, Tritons & Mermen flee to the safety of Dema islands. The Demas are samewhat more civilized in LA (due to influence of Marignon Missionaires) and have the cargo cult. Dema headhunters are now gone, but they can recruit mermen + icthysatyrs and could have something along the lines of LA marignon Navigators, too. And once you get a underwater fort up, you'd be able to recruit "Oceanian Survivors", tritons that mean business :mad: and have been armed to the teeth by the cargo cult. No more of that bronze crap.

[chrispedersen]

Oceania is the lands of the triton kings, the storm bringers, the bringers of mist - these are the themes I think of.

On my version of oceania - I gave them versions of hurricane, rain, and mist that was more easily castable by them.

As they were shaped in mist, I gave their second shape glamour.
And I modded a version of friendly currents autocast by their bishop priest

[Foodstamp]

Oceania is the lands of the triton kings, the storm bringers, the bringers of mist - these are the themes I think of.

On my version of oceania - I gave them versions of hurricane, rain, and mist that was more easily castable by them.

As they were shaped in mist, I gave their second shape glamour.
And I modded a version of friendly currents autocast by their bishop priest

These sound like cool change. :)

[Burnsaber]

On my version of oceania - I gave them versions of hurricane, rain, and mist that was more easily castable by them.


Hmm.. Rain & Mist sound like good ideas. Mist especially is helpful against archers, will help somewhat on land. Mind if I steal this?


As they were shaped in mist, I gave their second shape glamour.


Second shape of what units? mermen? I'm a bit confused.



And I modded a version of friendly currents autocast by their bishop priest

Not a good idea. At all. Knights of the Deep are pretty ridicilious as they are now, no need to buff Oceania underwater.

3-4 Knights of the Deep + Bishop Fish can obliterate any UW independents, with just a N4 bless to counter poison damage.

[HoneyBadger]

Burnsaber, have you thought about adding selkies to Atlantis?

They could be shapeshifters that would actually be stronger (or atleast more useful) on land, since they'd turn into human soldiers, but in the water they'd be either porpoises (not great in combat--capital only?), or human sized otters (maybe an upgraded amphibious summonable holy version requiring Astral/Water and costing astral "clams", that would transform in combat like Mictlan's jaguar warriors).

They might have limited stealth (maybe 5 maximum?), which would go a long way towards enhancing Atlantis, since I don't think any of the UW Nations have stealthy troops, especially ones that can operate on land. This could be balanced by only allowing them to heal while underwater, and giving them Kappa-type fatigue that would keep them close to the shore.

[llamabeast]

Selkies would fit nicely into the half-animal-half-man theme of Oceania I guess.

[chrispedersen]

On my version of oceania - I gave them versions of hurricane, rain, and mist that was more easily castable by them.


Hmm.. Rain & Mist sound like good ideas. Mist especially is helpful against archers, will help somewhat on land. Mind if I steal this?


As they were shaped in mist, I gave their second shape glamour.


Second shape of what units? mermen? I'm a bit confused.



And I modded a version of friendly currents autocast by their bishop priest

Not a good idea. At all. Knights of the Deep are pretty ridicilious as they are now, no need to buff Oceania underwater.

3-4 Knights of the Deep + Bishop Fish can obliterate any UW independents, with just a N4 bless to counter poison damage.

A: Steal away - give me a credit in the readme. if you send me a pm with your email address I'll send you what I can dig up too.

B. The second shape I was referring to was their land form.
This, by itself, is enough to make oceania powerful on land.

You do need to change the Oceania text description to introduce the theme of water and mists.

C. I *think* I gave bishop fish a land form as well. I know I made them younger (or increased max age).

The Friendly currents spell was on land. Worked great.

D. I also increased the seduction of the Siren - as I think that had been overlooked in the version of CBM. Making a Siren summoning spell might be thematic (national).

E. Finally I was looking at a spell that would increase dominion by 1 candle. Giving them a unique flavor. I almost got it to work. I had a unit with disease and 1 hp, that spread dominion. A little kludgy.

However the problem was it showed up with a commander, and for some reason the commander wouldn't show up diseased.

But I really liked the idea of adding glamour to oceania - makes it seem very 13th warriorish meets the ocean - pictures of viking warriors disappearing into the mist.

[Burnsaber]

Burnsaber, have you thought about adding selkies to Atlantis?


I thought about giving them to Oceania. But at least according to the wikipedia entry, they seemed like Siren-esque seducers. I could take matters into my own hands, but I don't know how to draw seals! Or otters for that matters. I'm not an artist, just a editers. I need a good base to work with to manage something usable. (Hence the Tawhuali, Lizards & sharks is easy)

I haven't really taken a look at Atlantis, but they seem intresting enough with their thuggable big mage guys and good magic access+. They have some of that Lovecraft mythology to back them up.

It's the Oceanias combination of thematic "blandness" & gameplay weakness, which makes them so problematic. The exact point when I decided to do something about this was when I tested the EA Oceania for the Faerun game.

I managed to get some land provinces early (with painful amounts of blood, tears and sweat.. from me) and build an early fort to a nice looking mountain province. It was my plan to mass produce Wave Warriors there. Once the fort was finished and I opened the recruitment screen..

I couldn't do anything but whimper in fear.

You only get Turtle infantry & Turtle Chief in Oceania land castles!

It was bizarre. Like something out of freaking twilight zone. I felt like I got *****-slapped by the game. *HOW DARE YOU TRY TO GET TO LAND WITH OCEANIA, BE SMITTEN*.

It also dawned on me that I have to play this thing in MP. I didn't even bother to try to swap nations, I simply knew that I had shortest straw.

I (unsuprisingly) got into a early blitz with R'lyeh. I was secretly hoping to lose so that I would be freed from playing it. But the R'lyeh player staled thrice, giving me a *major* advantage. I was also looking forward to writing some thematic AAR's, but my mind is drawing blanks with Oceania, I simply cannot crasp the damned thing.

Eh.. looks I derailed a bit there. Sorry folks. But about atlantis, I think that it doesn't need any more stuff. If it is weak, you can just manage the unit prices & stats.


But I really liked the idea of adding glamour to oceania - makes it seem very 13th warriorish meets the ocean - pictures of viking warriors disappearing into the mist.

I'd like to read the descriptions you've made. Could you please send the stuff to Burnsaber(at)hotmail.com

Your changes seem intresting, but do not do anything with the 'land castle' problem. In my opinion, this is the most crippling thing about Oceania. There's no reason to even bother with forts, your stuck to indy-level troops anyway.

But the mist theme is nice. I'll probably give them a national spell that gives both mist & rain (saves spell slots, you see). It'll be W2A1 likely.

I think that with addition of Dema alliance and intoduction of mist themes, we could manage to make Oceania playable.

[Calchet]

I've played around with boosting Oceania as well, though in a rather different direction - I collected a set of sea-related ground-recruitables from the mythology of northern Europe and the British isles, but have yet to get around to implementing them or making graphics:

Units:
- Kelpies, a poor amphibian (freshwater-dependent) horse-creature with a bit of stealth, a little awe and a once/battle, MR resists easily, melee-range charm attack.
- Finmen, strange merfolk-derivate poor amphibians that stalk the lands, again somewhat stealthy, wielding simple weapons.
- (Perhaps) Finmen riding kelpies (Oh, the originality!)

Commanders:
- Finman Sorcerers, capable finmen casters that complement your magic path selection with a little bit of water, air, astral and/or death.
- Each Uisge (or Nix), male multi-shape sneakers, poor amphibians, with a beautiful male playing a standard-effect fiddle in battle, a horrid fear-inspiring man-horse creature hybrid form, and an awe-inspiring kelpie-like horse form.

Summon:
- Nuckelavee. Something/death, vampire-like inability to enter water provinces. Looks something like a flayed centaur. Fear that makes a Prince of Death look like a cuddly bunny, and the combat ability to back it up, more or less.

As I'm unlikely to ever get around to working on these, feel free to adopt any that tickle your fancy.

[Tyrant]

You hit the nail on the head here, Oceania is not weak, it's dull. I like the directions this thread is taking and definitely think that some sort of summable commander(s) is the way to go. I have some vague memory of Polynesian vampire myths, but can't call up the name. The headhunter/cannibal angle sounds fun to me as well, and i also have a vague recollection of reading folklore from the island of Yap in college that involved invisible sorcerers. Perhaps you could do something with that. And of course there's always Land Sharks!

Looking forward to see what you come up with here.

[HoneyBadger]

Burnsaber: I'll draw you an otter and a porpoise by this weekend. Not a problem.

I very much like the idea of Oceania being powerful physically in the ocean, and then powerful magically on land (in that they could have additional ritual spells for land, like Hurricane).
'Mist' is another good idea.

Another idea that strikes me as to how to differentiate Oceania would be to base it somewhat on the end of Clash of the Titans, where Proteus releases the Kraken. So maybe give Oceania a powerful amphibious endgame summon that can only be cast on land?

To give you a "for instance", the Cyclops in the Odyssey was supposed to be the son of Poseidon, so maybe something there?

[HoneyBadger]

Here's the porpoise:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8200&stc=1&d=1242602893

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8201&stc=1&d=1242602893 attack sprite


I'm not sure about the sizing, so if you decide to use this, and if you think it needs resizing, just let me know and I'll fix it.

I hope you'll be able to access these. I tried putting them into a .zip folder, but it didn't work, somehow. So if you need this in a different format, you might need to help me get it set up for you. I don't know why it's being difficult...so I might need a little instruction, if it becomes necessary.

[HoneyBadger]

Here's the otter:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8202&stc=1&d=1242605948

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8203&stc=1&d=1242605948 attack sprite

I'm thinking maybe otters could be statwise based on wolves? Possibly with claws attack instead of bite, but with less overall damage, and maybe 1 or 2 extra hitpoints.

Otters might possibly also have a slight (25%) cold resistance, because of their fur.

[HoneyBadger]

Here's a seal:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8206&stc=1&d=1242613946

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8207&stc=1&d=1242614085 attack sprite

[HoneyBadger]

Here's a seal:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8206&stc=1&d=1242613946

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8207&stc=1&d=1242614085 attack sprite

[Burnsaber]

Wow!

Thanks Honeybadger!

I have today and tomorrow off from from work, so I'll probably manage to whip up something.

I've also been toying with the idea of adding scylla-like beasts as national summon. I have a way to tie it to the Dema alliance.

[llamabeast]

I like Calchet's ideas a lot. The Nuckelavee in particular would be awesome.

The principle theme of Oceania seems to be half-men, so it would definitely be good to extend that somewhat.

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with Burn!

[Burnsaber]

Okay, I've got some good news and some bad news.

Oceania's limitation of "only turtle-crap in land forts" is apparently pretty hard-coded. I cannot add any new recruitables to Oceanian land castles. So, the Dema alliance is out of the picture. Well, I re-read this thread and the Oceania suggestion thread for some ideas and then started working.

One thing that has always bothered me a bit in EA Oceania is that there are Triton Kings, but where are the queens. Oceania is a total sausagefest anyways. I thought about just giving some queens as summons, but they would be N/W anyways, and thus not very useful. I scrapped the idea, and but in the selphies, since Honeybadger was nice enough to give a graphic for the sea form!

Then I went for a different route with the land castle problem. If turtle infantry is all that you get, it needs to be sexier. So I replaced the turtle guys with a "Daughter of Selphie" (magepriest) and "Son of Selphie" (troop), which introduce the "mist bringer" themes of Chrispedersen.

Then I got a another idea for the queens when brainstorming descriptions for the selphies.

Oceania was once truly the kings of the sea. Knowing that they'd never be able to conquer the dry realm above the waves, the ancient "uber" Triton Kings (hinted in the description of vanilla Triton Kings), devised a plan to start a great flood and to make the world theirs. However, Pantakrator found out about this and stripped the Kings of much of their powers and cursed the triton queens with hideous bodies (inspired by the legend of scylla). Ta-daa! Late-game monsterous summon!

Since picture is worth a thousand words...

http://xs539.xs.to/xs539/09211/oempreview424.gif

a) Daughter of Selphie's land form. She'll be A1W1H1 (with A/N/E/W random).

b) Daughter of Selphie's water form. Nothing special planned about it.

c) Selkie's land form. I'm going to farther away from the myths a bit and make them tricksy and curious water/mist spirits with good access to air to introduce the mist theme. They'll swap the air magic for water in sea. The Selkies have made a strange deal with Oceanian people... (I'll expalin in detail once I've figured out some details)

d) Son of Selkie's water from. Underwater, these guys won't do much. I might give them animalawe to give them a niche use UW against shark spam.

e) Son of Selkie's land form. These will be okay troops with glamour (granted to them by the magical otter-skin cloaks grafted to them by their mothers)

f) Cursed Queen - These will be a late-game summon. When the queens got mutated by Pantakrator, they couldn't stand it, and fled to the deeps. With aoens, they've taken to witchy practices in a futile attemp to get their old bodies back. They will grant small access to astral/death. Probably W2N2 with 100% for either S2 or D2. The lower part of the picture got somehow corrupted when I copy-pasted it.

g) Uncorrupted Queen - She will be a hero. She is uncursed because she was the one who told the pantakrator about the flooding plan. Hence, she didn't get the curse, but had to flee the wrath of Triton Kings. Compassionate soul, she will be a mighty healer and nature mage.

h) Seal, the water form of selkie.

i) The Dema Troops I managed to make before I found the full scale of the land castle problem, these will not be feautred, but since I made them, I just might as well show them off.

[Trumanator]

Maybe you could throw in a national spell that IS the great flood planned. Sort of like a reverse Thetis' blessing, maybe throw in some income drops and such for everyone else, sort of like utterdark.

[llamabeast]

Burnsaber, you are awesome.

Incidentally, when you say "Selphie" do you mean selkie? You seem to use both.

[llamabeast]

I can't think what you can do re. the flood, but if you can think of any floody spells they would be a great addition.

I suppose you could make a national quagmire, but then you'd want to give the troops swamp survival and that doesn't seem especially thematic.

[llamabeast]

By the way all the graphics are absolutely great, but I'm particularly a fan of the Daughter of Selphie (both forms), and both Triton Queens.

I'm actually looking forward to playing this, an impressive feat!

[llamabeast]

Hmm, I wonder if you could make a national Perpetual Storm (beginning of the flood).

Just thinking aloud.

Spammy spam spam...

[Burnsaber]

Maybe you could throw in a national spell that IS the great flood planned. Sort of like a reverse Thetis' blessing, maybe throw in some income drops and such for everyone else, sort of like utterdark.

Good idea. I can't mod a spell like you descriped, but IIRC, there might have been a way to mod a spell that send a "flood" event to a coastal province. If so, I'll make a national spell of it, "Will of the Kings".


Burnsaber, you are awesome.

Incidentally, when you say "Selphie" do you mean selkie? You seem to use both.

I know :P

Yeah, I'm not really decided on which spelling should I use. Since I'm not going exactly by the legend, I'm a bit lenient on using the direct name (althought I'm using the seal fur thing, you can notice the Selkie wearing a white cloak).

By the way all the graphics are absolutely great, but I'm particularly a fan of the Daughter of Selphie (both forms), and both Triton Queens.

I'm actually looking forward to playing this, an impressive feat!

Not to brag, but I really nailed the land form of the Daughter in my opinion. I was actually thinking of switching the graphic between the Selkie and the Daughter, because the daughter looked more epic. I might copy paste the dress (taken mostly from mermage land form) to the actual selkie to make it look better.

The Quuens are mostly a mix & match collection of parts from the Nerid, Draikana & Mother of Monsters. I originally thought about making the corrupted queens have octopoid underbodies (like the baddie in the Little Mermaid disney flick), but since that would make them aquatic..

I have the graphics now, but I still need to write the descriptions and the full .dm file, so it might take a while. I'll probably release the first version by the end of month, thought.



Hmm, I wonder if you could make a national Perpetual Storm (beginning of the flood).


Sweet idea! I'll do that. Oceania has much to benefit from storms too. (protects the missile weak land troops, allow air powering to lighting spams..). Now I just need a epic name for it. If I can't make the flood spell, this one will be called "Will of the Kings"

[llamabeast]

Right! I have been working this evening on a nice apocalyptic end-game battlefield enchantment. Code below.

It is meant to represent a powerful ritual to bring the wrath of the sea to the battlefield. The skies open, rain pours down in torrents, visibility is reduced to a few yards, the ground turns to mud, and from all sides the power of the sea itself descends to crush the enemies of the Oceanians.

I envisage it being maybe a research-8 spell in one of enchantment, alteration or conjuration. It would need quite high caster level, maybe water-6.

What it does:
- Storm
- Mist
- Quagmire
- Summons water elementals from all sides. Initially large elementals will come (in the first round or two it looks crazy). However, quickly the torrent will be reduced to just a few smaller elementals each turn. After 9 turns nothing more will come (hence it's not exploitable).

The spell looks potentially overpowered, but I don't think it is really. I haven't carefully tuned the number of water elementals, but I think they would not be a huge issue for a magically prepared late game army. In fact a mid game army could fend them off well enough I think.

Note that in the code the spell is trivial to cast, and not restricted to Oceania, so that it is easy to test.

Code:

#newspell
#copyspell "Storm"
#name "Oceanian Quagmire"
#school -1
#effect 81
#damage 85
#nextspell "Mist"
#end

#newspell
#copyspell "Summon Water Elemental"
#name "Oceanian Small Elementals"
#school -1
#effect 9043
#damage 412
#nreff 5
#nextspell "Oceanian Quagmire"
#end

#newspell
#copyspell "Summon Water Elemental"
#name "Oceanian Medium Elementals"
#school -1
#effect 3043
#damage 410
#nreff 3
#nextspell "Oceanian Small Elementals"
#end

#newspell
#copyspell "Living Water"
#name "Oceanian Large Elemental"
#school -1
#researchlevel 0
#effect 2043
#damage 408
#nreff 2
#nextspell "Oceanian Medium Elementals"
#end

#newspell
#copyspell "Storm"
#name "Coming of the Flood"
#school 0
#researchlevel 0
#path 0 2
#pathlevel 0 1
#fatiguecost 100
#nreff 5
#nextspell "Oceanian Large Elemental"
#end

(note the nreff 5 is not a mistake, it seems to be needed for the summons to work correctly)

[chrispedersen]

Awesome stuff... and I'm not nearly the modder you are - but I may have a way to fix the land only recruit problems.

Give it a new nation number. Sure, pita, but it would work wouldn't it?

[HoneyBadger]

I'm glad you like them, Burnsaber.

By the way, for some reason, your graphics aren't showing up for me... Dunno if it's you or me?

[Burnsaber]

Awesome stuff... and I'm not nearly the modder you are - but I may have a way to fix the land only recruit problems.

Give it a new nation number. Sure, pita, but it would work wouldn't it?

True! Never thought of that. Seems like some of the Dema alliance is back. (it's pretty.. stupid to only have 1 recrutable troop & commander in land castles). Now the daughter of selkie can be just a mage and the land-priest could be the dema shaman.

[Burnsaber]

I'm glad you like them, Burnsaber.

By the way, for some reason, your graphics aren't showing up for me... Dunno if it's you or me?

They're showing for me. It's just a basic .gif, so it could be somesort of weird internet safety setting, perhaps you should try saving the picture on your computer (you can do that, right?) and looking it from paint or something.

[HoneyBadger]

Tried and it doesn't work, dunno why...

[llamabeast]

Isn't the issue perhaps that you can only control one of the recruitment lists, the water one or the land one? If not, awesome.

Also, comment on the spell, comment on the spell! :o (I got excited about it because it took me ages to get it to work - obviously you don't have to use it though)

[Burnsaber]

Isn't the issue perhaps that you can only control one of the recruitment lists, the water one or the land one? If not, awesome.


Actually, I really don't know. I was thinking of #clearing the nation and then giving the recruitables.. I'll have to test this. I'll be sure to tell the results.


Also, comment on the spell, comment on the spell! :o (I got excited about it because it took me ages to get it to work - obviously you don't have to use it though)

It's pretty awesome, I'll probably scrap the quaqmire, since it will hamper the elementals (and your nationals) too (not really thematic, me thinks). Mist + storm + water elemental horde is probably enough humidity for a single battlefield :D. I'll probably make it W5A2 or something (the air is to make it difficult for MA oceania to cast, it is the plan of the Triton Kings afterall). But other than that, it's definately in.

[llamabeast]

Including air as a requirement makes sense, although of course since it will be a national spell MA Oceania won't be able to cast it anyway unless you give them access to it.

As for the quagmire, it is no particular advantage to Oceania to have it cast, and also swampiness doesn't really fit with their theme. Another disadvantage is that having the spell cast three battlefiend enchantments at once gives the strong impression of a modder having got overexcited! However, I was just trying to imagine what would happen in the onset of a phenomenal deluge accompanied by rising waters from all sides, and the ground turning swampy seemed like a very realistic effect. In fact it is hard to imagine it not turning swampy. In any case I'm easy with whatever you go for.

[Zeldor]

Burnsaber:

That's probably why Quagmire should stay. It fits in it and you should be able to work with it.

I hope more nations are going to get fixed. In MA it's needed more. I'd say - Man, Agartha, Machaka need more love most.

P.S. Haven't seen you on irc recently...

[Swan]

1)About the "flood" spell, why you don't make it as a global that gives amphibian to all aquatic creatures?
like the fish amulet created by a/w, just on big scale.

2)Maybe another idea could be "dema alliance", an high level global that spawn dema's soldier on your coastal provincies?
if you do so, look at warcraftian troll berserk from warcraft: the frozen throne(spelling?): they are perfet(inmo) for some savagecrazysonofabeetchmaneatervicious headhunter.
they even came with comic relief already packed in if you need!

3)Never played mp, but if the problem is late game, why not a level 8-9 conj spell, that summon a random big (very big) and angry(very angry) something from the sea? you know, kraken,giant snake,giant turtle, giant hydra,giant walrus,giant worm/wyrm,giant kraken, giant Nessie,good ol'Cthulhu(xxl size,ofc),giant wet teddybear and stuff like that.

[chrispedersen]

I like quagmire I think it fits on the idea of ice and water....

I could also see a battlefield version of haste - where the entire battlefield was covered in ice.

Hrm looking over the stuff I did - I also created Scylla and Charybdis two monster summons for Oceania. Way over the top tho.

[Burnsaber]

Actually, I really don't know. I was thinking of #clearing the nation and then giving the recruitables.. I'll have to test this. I'll be sure to tell the results.


So yeah. You can only mod one of the recruitment lists. So Dema alliance is absolutely out of the picture (it's probably for the best, the less units I add, the better). Is this already added to the mod wishlist? I'd absolutely LOVE to see #landrecunit/com & #waterrecunit/com commands.

1)About the "flood" spell, why you don't make it as a global that gives amphibian to all aquatic creatures?
like the fish amulet created by a/w, just on big scale.


Not possible with current modding tools, I'm afraid.


2)Maybe another idea could be "dema alliance", an high level global that spawn dema's soldier on your coastal provincies?
if you do so, look at warcraftian troll berserk from warcraft: the frozen throne(spelling?): they are perfet(inmo) for some savagecrazysonofabeetchmaneatervicious headhunter.
they even came with comic relief already packed in if you need!


Actually the Dema alliance too is out of the picture, due to some modding quirks.


3)Never played mp, but if the problem is late game, why not a level 8-9 conj spell, that summon a random big (very big) and angry(very angry) something from the sea? you know, kraken,giant snake,giant turtle, giant hydra,giant walrus,giant worm/wyrm,giant kraken, giant Nessie,good ol'Cthulhu(xxl size,ofc),giant wet teddybear and stuff like that.

Well, Oceania will get the queens. Their graphics states them as at least size 5 and they'll probably have stats along the lines of Draikana pretender, so very thuggable, perhaps even minor SC's. Since they'll also diversify your magic, they'll make for a very nice late-game summon (costing water gems, to disencourage clamming)

I like quagmire I think it fits on the idea of ice and water....

I could also see a battlefield version of haste - where the entire battlefield was covered in ice.

Hrm looking over the stuff I did - I also created Scylla and Charybdis two monster summons for Oceania. Way over the top tho.

It seems that the crowd has spoken, the Quaqmire-effect stays.

Don't know, ice really isn't Oceanias forte. Besides, I probably have enough national spells for now. (Damn you spell limit, damn you! *shakes fist*)

I also thought about Charybdis, but since he'd be clearly aquatic, mjeh. Oceania doesn't need any more UW power, it needs something to wield on land (other than independents). Scylla is also somewhat implemented already (the Draikana pretender), so I just took heed from the legend and created the cursed queens.

[Trumanator]

Well the water queens are pretty weak. 2 of them are aquatic, and the third one is mediocre on land.

[Burnsaber]

Well the water queens are pretty weak. 2 of them are aquatic, and the third one is mediocre on land.

I meant the cursed triton queens, which I mentioned in this post

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=691649&postcount=24

[chrispedersen]

Hmmmmm...

it would be interesting to add the swamp icon to the ocean land form; combined with the quagmire national spell.

Not immediatly obvious but it would make the oceania cavlary quagmire immune.................

As for the land recunit... Replace the turtle units with other units, and or freespawns?

[Burnsaber]

As for the land recunit... Replace the turtle units with other units, and or freespawns?

I'm going to replace the land recruits with the Son of Selkie and Daughter of Selkie, as I detailed in the post I mentioned in my previous post. The turtle infantry will stay recruitable underwater (I just make the Sons & daughter replace the land form of turtle infantry and make new turtle units to replica the land forms for the UW turles).

Freespawn is a good idea thought. I'll perhaps give the turtle commander & Merman priest & Wave Lords land forms some weak freespawn.

"Oceanian turtle raids are well known in coastal lands and the coastal merman villages are quite prone to counter-raids from the vengeful humans. Many mermen have lost their homes and families to the vile humans. Thus, Turtle chiefs do not have much trouble finding recruits in land."

[Swan]

1)About the "flood" spell, why you don't make it as a global that gives amphibian to all aquatic creatures?
like the fish amulet created by a/w, just on big scale.

Not possible with current modding tools, I'm afraid.

:( too bad


Well, Oceania will get the queens. Their graphics states them as at least size 5

Why so small? make 'em really huge.


Freespawn is a good idea thought. I'll perhaps give the turtle commander & Merman priest & Wave Lords land forms some weak freespawn.

that's what i meant for my global, just make it like mechanical militia( or quirk doesn't mean " technical/modding dificulties?)

[BandarLover]

Aaawwww...so no possibility of human head hunters helping them out on land? You could take a page from Sombre and have a national summon spell that summons a Dema chieftain, who can then be set to summon allies for Dema troops, maybe?

[chrispedersen]

I just don't see how headhunters are at all thematic for Oceania.
MUCH more appropriate for machaka.

I would love to give the melqarts ability to eat commanders to machaka sorcerers. I wouldn't makeit gluttonous. But occasionally it *would* result in magic increases.

I wonder if you copied the melqart and just redid all his stats, fixed gluttony and unrest if you could retain the eat commander function.

I also wonder if they just said.. if gluttony > x then there is a possibility of eating a commander....

Another interesting thing would be to allow a headhunter unit which starts with a shrunken head miscellaneous item.

In combat the head would animate ala carcator.

[Gregstrom]

I just don't see how headhunters are at all thematic for Oceania.
MUCH more appropriate for machaka.


Oh yes?

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/388290/headhunting_wasnt_limited_to_primitive.html

Burnsaber's reasoning earlier in the thread worked well for me.



Another interesting thing would be to allow a headhunter unit which starts with a shrunken head miscellaneous item.

In combat the head would animate ala carcator.

I like that - could it be done as a #onebattlespell combat summon?

[chrispedersen]

I just don't see how headhunters are at all thematic for Oceania.
MUCH more appropriate for machaka.


Oh yes?

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/388290/headhunting_wasnt_limited_to_primitive.html

Burnsaber's reasoning earlier in the thread worked well for me.



Another interesting thing would be to allow a headhunter unit which starts with a shrunken head miscellaneous item.

In combat the head would animate ala carcator.

I like that - could it be done as a #onebattlespell combat summon?

Oh cool!!!!!

In a way a personal totem!
Make it a national spell, as well as a #onebattle.

Animated head: ?1 {B/D} with a one path bonus.
The animated heads whisper totemic advice: Autocast Bloodslave

It would ALSO be cool if there were various totemic spirits

progressively stronger
Ravenous Wolf
Bear of Sloth
Archer of Dusk (human)
Mage of Despair
Nightmare of Terror....
Demon
Etc.

they are all called Totem; they all disappear after a fight.
However, since they are all called the same, each summons gets a progressively stronger totem.

I liiike it!!!!

[Lavaere]

If your adding a Polynesian feel to Oceania. You have cannibalistic tribesmen, who are excellent navigators. Magic being nature, with possible blood, fire, water. And small chance of maybe astral.
And in the small chance that you gave the tribesmen a mount. You would have two choices, early ages possible a Moa. While later ages the would use horses.
You could also maybe add something like the Tengu. As we have birdmen mythos as well.
Taniwha, which depending on where your from. Are great sharks, eels, sea serpents.
Vampires was also mentioned by someone. I can't remember what they are called. But the head or whole upper body seperated from the rest. And could fly, and most victims were children or pregnant women.

[Burnsaber]

Damn! Just when I noticerd that the Dema alliance can't be done (line of summons would just take up spell slots and be quite a "less-than-optimal" solution), I get all these nice sounding suggestions. If I ever get around to making LA Oceania, I'll be 100% sure to introduce these themes. Polynesian myth lore was a very intresting read.

I actually have the .dm file about 60% complete. Graphics about 95% complete. I'm starting for the EA Oceania one (due to thematic stuff, I'll make a different mod for EA and MA Oceania) The changes to EA Oceania in a nut-shell:

-- Land recruitables changed to Son of Selkie & Daughter of Selkie
-- Knights of the Deep will get nerfed. Reduced stats & capitol only.
-- Triton Kings get H1 (to make bless somewhat useful)
-- A3W1 Summoning spell for Selkie (mage A3W2N1 seducer on land, A1W2N3 animal spawning seal on water) and the Cursed Queen summon spell W5H1 (size 5, 100hp, W2N2 with 210% S/D and 100 W/N/E picks)
-- 1N1W & 2N1W Land summons for ichtysatyrs and ichtycentaurs respectively.
-- The Flood national spells. A2W1 spell that gives mist & rain, W5A2 coming of the flood by llamabeast and W4 "Will of the Kings" that sends a Tidal Wave event, if I find a way to make it only target coastal provinces.
-- 1E1W land summon for "Merman Knights", they are rich sons of merman traders who can afford iron equipment (on sea the armor will rust however).

[chrispedersen]

glamored on land?
quagmire?

[Burnsaber]

glamored on land?
quagmire?

The new land recruits have glamour as does the Selkie summon. I don't want to mess with the land forms of vanilla merman units (the less changes, the better).

The Coming of the Flood brings Quaqmire. I really don't see any reason for a national quaqmire, since Oceania is already more than able to cast it with nationals.

[Rick L]

Personnally, I like Oceania. The key is to start with an improsoned rainbow pretender, such as the master lich. By the time he breaks free, you should control all the under water provinces. You also should have lots of researchers. Triton Kings are good and automatically summon good underwater troops. Build armies of wave warriors. They are a decent on-land army. Lead them with mermages equipped with sceptres of authority. When your pretender is free, have him cast acashic record to find the magic sites your site searcher couldn't. FInding death sites is the key. Then follow the skull mentor strategy suggested by Baalz in his guide to Hellheim. You should have no trouble getting to 300 RP which will get you to conjuration six in short order. Then cast streams of Hades. Have this commander summon ghosts. Crush a weak land province and build a lab. Recruit any mercenaries available to the land province and conjure like crazy. Have your pretender teleport in and cast Troll King's court. As your research builds up, you can get to the elemental royalty. Tarraresque. Tartarians. You can build a quite formidable land army if you can get to Conjure 8 before anyone else.

[the Vanishag]

I should have checked out this thread sooner - I <i>just</i> posted my EA Alchera mod, drawing on Australian Aboriginal and Maori myth - there's a lot of overlap with the Dema alliance stuff. If anyone continues working on the Dema, they should feel free to take whatever they like from my mod (if so, I'd appreciate a credit or at least a heads-up).

I feel a little less original now, but that's part of the price of knowledge.

[chrispedersen]

Personnally, I like Oceania. The key is to start with an improsoned rainbow pretender, such as the master lich. By the time he breaks free, you should control all the under water provinces. You also should have lots of researchers. Triton Kings are good and automatically summon good underwater troops. Build armies of wave warriors. They are a decent on-land army. Lead them with mermages equipped with sceptres of authority. When your pretender is free, have him cast acashic record to find the magic sites your site searcher couldn't. FInding death sites is the key. Then follow the skull mentor strategy suggested by Baalz in his guide to Hellheim. You should have no trouble getting to 300 RP which will get you to conjuration six in short order. Then cast streams of Hades. Have this commander summon ghosts. Crush a weak land province and build a lab. Recruit any mercenaries available to the land province and conjure like crazy. Have your pretender teleport in and cast Troll King's court. As your research builds up, you can get to the elemental royalty. Tarraresque. Tartarians. You can build a quite formidable land army if you can get to Conjure 8 before anyone else.

Rick, all I can say is try this in MP. I like Oceania as well - but no one I know suggests its competetive MA.

A few problems: You lose to R'ylleh. You don't have the astral income to support acashic record. You cannot count on mercenaries MP. You will not win the research race to Con-8 before other nations.