MA al-Nadim - The thousand and one nights 1.01)

[elmokki]

MA Al-Nadim: The Thousand and One Nights
http://nikita.tnnet.fi/~elmokki/alnadim-recruitable.png
http://nikita.tnnet.fi/~elmokki/alnadim-heroandsummon.png
Magic levels etc in images might be outdated. Militia hasn't existed since 0.87, there's now light infantry that's essentially a leather armored spear infantry. Also Beduin Sorcerer is not in the picture.

I personally won't link to Dominions 3 content made by me any more and I hope no-one else will either (old links are fine, whatever). You should be able to find them or most of them by asking on IRC or googling the other forums

0.92 (15.3.2011)
Fixed summon paths and tweaked higher tier summons.

0.93 (18.3.2011)
- Beduin cavalry tweaked to be more in line with Sauromatia light cavalry
--> Beduin troops hp, att and def reduced 12 -> 11
--> Beduin Raider gold cost 40 -> 20
--> Beduin Mounted Archer gold cost 40 -> 18
- Mubarizun gold cost 18 -> 15
- Mubarizun commander hp 13 -> 16 to be more in line with for example Marverni Boar Lords.
- Dervish gold cost 25 -> 20
- Camel unit prices lowered to be more in line with similiar powered cavalry units
--> Camel Cavalry price 50 -> 25
--> Camel Archer price 25 -> 20
- Camel sprites got a very subtle tweak
- (lesser) Marid stats brought to be more in line with (lesser) Ifrit stats.
- Marids of all levels get glamour again. There's a risk this is overpowered, but we'll see.
- Alchemits research bonus increased 2 -> 3
- New unit: Beduin Sorcerer
--> Mounted mage with 1F1E and 110% FEW, stealthy and 140g cost

1.00 (24.3.2011)
- Nametype of 79 names implemented (id 151)
- Llamabeast's id changes and spelling corrections implemented
- All djinni have #gcost 0 to remove upkeep
- Viziers and Grand Viziers are slightly younger. Viziers should now never be old when you recruit them and Grand Viziers should still be old, but a bit less so and with luck maybe barely not old.
- Beduin Sorcerer pathes changed to 1S and 110% FSE, 100% FE

1.01 (27.9.2011)
- Summon Lesser Ifrits/Marids moved up in research (4 -> 6), named to "Summon Band of Lesser Ifrits/Marids" and increased cast requirements by one level of magic (2W/F -> 3W/F)
- Added Summon Lesser Ifrit/Marid at conj4, summons 1 marid/ifrit for 2 gems at 2W or 2F.
----

Weapons: 915-916
Units: 3622-3657
Nation: 85
Sites: 788-789

Copypaste:

Al-Nadim is a mod nation inspired by the One Thousand and One Nights and Arabian culture in general. The mod is in no way supposed to be a realistic representation of Persian/Arabian/Middle-Eastern nations of the time, but more of a generic Arabian nation that makes a player that isn't a huge history buff feel like he's playing a mod where there are turbans, scimitars and camel riders.

Unit list as of 0.91. Pictures below should be only used for graphical examples, the unit stats won't be correct.

Units:
- Light Infantry (spear, shield, light armor)
- Infantry (spear, shield, medium armor)
- Infantry (scimitar, shield, medium armor)
- Beduin Mounted Archer (scimitar, short bow, light armor, mounted, stealthy)
- Beduin Raider (scimitar, shield, light armor, mounted, stealthy)
- Camel Archer (scimitar, composite bow, light armor, mounted, awesome)
- Camel Cavalrey (scimitar, shield, medium armor, mounted, awesome)
- Dervish (two scimitars, almost no armor, sacred, berserk, high stats)
- Mubarizun (scimitar, shield, medium armor, high stats, capital only)

Commanders:
- Al-Nadim Scout
- Assassin (a custom al-Nadim variant that's fairly similiar to the default one)
- Al-Nadim Commander
- Beduin Chieftain
- Camel Commander
- Mullah (H1 priest, decent commander)
- Mystic (stealthy, H1S1 magic)
- Vizier (2F1W 110% FAWS)
- Mubarizun Commander (capital only)
- Alchemist (1E2? 210% FAWE, capital only)
- Imam (3H, capital only, old)
- Grand Vizier (2F2W1S 110% FAWS, capital only)

Summons:
- Camels
- Ghul (stealthy death/fire mage with seducing and ability to turn to a were-hyena)
- Ifrits (3 tiers, fire/earth mages with some skill in death and astral)
- Marids (3 tiers, fire/water mages with some skill in air and astral)

[the Vanishag]

Those sprites are looking good - and I like the proliferation of mounted units: mobility on the battlefield should be a major advantage of an Arabian faction.

If you're setting up al-Nadim against Hinnom, you could play off of the tangle of myths surrounding <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'anic_account_of_Sulayman">Sulayman/Solomon</a>, in which he tamed, captured or enslaved the jinns (or, according to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goetia">Christian Goetic sources,</a> the demons of hell) - that could make for an interesting hero, at least

And if you decide to do a MA version, you could go with a "Great Caliphate" theme - think of something a little like EA Aeroscaphle and MA Tien Chi: that would play off of the scholars, poets and alchemists of the 1st & 2nd Caliphates and the anti-Caliphate (Moorish Spain) - these historical empires had their heyday during Europe's "Dark Ages."

I don't have much advice regarding Arabic mythology - the previous paragraph was drawn from what I remember from some of my undergraduate history courses.

Another thought: it might be interesting to imagine them as caught between Abyssia (which incorporates some Middle-Eastern tropes) and Hinnom. If you don't want to do a MA version of al-Nadim, that's more than enough explanation.

Sorry, that's probably too many suggestions too quickly. I'm like that when I get going. :rant2:

Short version of this post: Neat! :) I can't wait to see more.

[Burnsaber]

Those graphics look nice. Good editing.

Also, IIRC someone did a nation waaaay back (like 2 years ago) with arabic themes. Can't remember the name thought. Perhaps a forum search could help?

Also, you should understand that F & A is the suckiest path combo in Dominions. You only have one (niche) crosspath spell and the only forgeable item is an artifact. I suggest that you add some national Fire/Air and Air/Fire spells for them*. You also could consider making a new Air & Fire item to forge.

*Some humble suggestions for Air/Fire spells
- A national version of "Blessing of the Desert Winds" from my CPCS mod. (which gives flaming arrows + air shield on small area)
- Battlefield summon for weak imp-like djinns?
- "Wrath of the Desert" - spell that sucks out all water from the opponents causing sever dehydration (fatigue damage, mr negates or die?)
- Sand Storm - fatigue damage + mr easily negates blindness? Hmm.. actually this sounds more like air/earth


Oh, btw, how do I predetermine a hero's name? I don't want random name the supreme vizier.


The only way is to do this is give the hero a modded nametype with only one name on the list. Althought it's pretty wasteful to spend an entire nametype on a single hero.

[Sombre]

Perhaps the heavier troops and cavalry should have helmets, graphically?

I like the look of it very much so far - simple, clean changes result in good looking dom3 style troops. It fits in with haida gwaii, alchera, shangrila etc as very dom3 style nations.

[Nasser]

I was totally brainstorming ideas for a nation based off of Arab myth a few months back. I think it has real potential to be a fantastic nation thematically. The way I saw it the EA version could be based wholly on pre-Islamic Arabia, followed by MA in which 'the prophet' arises and you have a conflict between the old polytheistic sects and the followers of the prophet/pretender (muslims). Finally in LA the new religion has taken over.

For the EA version, which I'd been thinking about first, I thought it'd be neat to have the troops divided by the city vs desert. You'd have the disciplined city troop and cavalry to do the heavy lifting, backed by the wise and learned scholars and mages that only a metropolis can cultivate. There'd be splendidly bejeweled captains of the Magnificent Host, culled from the royal families to lead the armies. Then there'd be the other units from the desert, based on the Bedouin. Could be stealthy raiders or ferocious fighters with poorer moral, maybe have a mystic or shaman to lead them.

Of course then there'd be so many types of djinn to summon that you could easily make it a summon-intensive nation too. I guess I'm just rambling, so I'll say I really like the theme and wish you luck!

[llamabeast]

Ooh, this looks exciting and the graphics are very nicely done.

I have two graphical comments though. Firstly, it looks off to me that they all have naked legs. Shouldn't they be wearing full-length robes, or perhaps billowy trousers? (my Arabic knowledge is poor at best, althuogh as it happens I am currently writing from a library full of Arabic students!)

Secondly, I think the source graphic for the viziers is unfortunately one of the lower quality graphics in dominions, so they don't quite match up to the excellent quality of your other graphics. They're still fine, it's just noticeable that they're not quite as good.

All in all I'm very much looking forward to this mod!

[llamabeast]

Oh yeah, and I really like the spinning thing for the dervish, but is he meant to look like he has very long grey hair? Cos he kind of does at the moment.

[Sombre]

While we're on the subject of graphics, it might be an idea to get the horse rearing up graphic from the vanilla sprites and apply it to the attack sprites of your non missile cavalry - currently the movement from one sprite to the next is a bit too subtle for a large (size 3) unit.

[elmokki]

Also, you should understand that F & A is the suckiest path combo in Dominions. You only have one (niche) crosspath spell and the only forgeable item is an artifact. I suggest that you add some national Fire/Air and Air/Fire spells for them*. You also could consider making a new Air & Fire item to forge.

*Some humble suggestions for Air/Fire spells
- A national version of "Blessing of the Desert Winds" from my CPCS mod. (which gives flaming arrows + air shield on small area)
- Battlefield summon for weak imp-like djinns?
- "Wrath of the Desert" - spell that sucks out all water from the opponents causing sever dehydration (fatigue damage, mr negates or die?)
- Sand Storm - fatigue damage + mr easily negates blindness? Hmm.. actually this sounds more like air/earth


Yeah, that's why I wanted to give them more diversity. In the end, fire feels like the only path that really is mandatory for a nation that is centered on djinn/efreeti/whatever, especially as I consider them to be more elemental beings than angelic (or demonic) beings, so I guess it might be a decent idea to give the mages some fire and a random chance of getting several fire/water/air/earth random picks. That'd allow more synergy, though it'd also give a rather good diversity since I was also thinking of sage-like astral scholars.

[elmokki]

Perhaps the heavier troops and cavalry should have helmets, graphically?

I wanted to add that first, poking from under the white turbanish thing that covers their head, since that seemed realistic, but I failed at my first try so I ended up with everyone having their helmets completely covered. Got to see if I get better results next time I'm bored enough to start tinkering with sprites :)

[elmokki]

I have two graphical comments though. Firstly, it looks off to me that they all have naked legs. Shouldn't they be wearing full-length robes, or perhaps billowy trousers? (my Arabic knowledge is poor at best, althuogh as it happens I am currently writing from a library full of Arabic students!)


Agreed. I really don't know how I could forget the trousers. If anything, they should be more realistic than naked legs.


Secondly, I think the source graphic for the viziers is unfortunately one of the lower quality graphics in dominions, so they don't quite match up to the excellent quality of your other graphics. They're still fine, it's just noticeable that they're not quite as good.
True, the graphic just happened to suit them very well. I'll definately remake them along with the other stuff when I do things like modify the mubarizun sprite for a mubarizun commander. That is, if I find a better sprite to base them on.

Oh yeah, and I really like the spinning thing for the dervish, but is he meant to look like he has very long grey hair? Cos he kind of does at the moment.

His upper body is apart from arms pretty much completely from the normal indy priest, and I can't see a long grey hair in either of the sprites myself. Though it might be a good idea to edit the sprite to show more neck.

[elmokki]

While we're on the subject of graphics, it might be an idea to get the horse rearing up graphic from the vanilla sprites and apply it to the attack sprites of your non missile cavalry - currently the movement from one sprite to the next is a bit too subtle for a large (size 3) unit.

Agreed, the problem is though, how can I get non-antialiased (or whatever is blurring the sprites ingame) sprites? The bases I currently have are from sprite dumps, but they sadly don't have the attack sprites. For viziers I took a screenshot and built from that, but completely redrawing a rearing horse from a somewhat ok model is a bit too much work if I can get a proper sprite from somewhere.

[Sombre]

If you look in the modding tools thread, I'm pretty sure there's a link to all the vanilla sprites in a zip there.

If you can't find it let me know and I'll upload my copy of it.

[Burnsaber]

There's a download for all vanilla graphics in the first post of Sprite Editing Tutorial.

[llamabeast]

Ah, I bet the imperfect source image was why I thought the vizier looked a bit funny. If you use the image from the sprite archive he should look better I think.

[llamabeast]

Any news on this? I'm really looking forward to it.

[Wrana]

Congratulations!
At last this idea is taken by someone who can draw! :)
There were some discussions on this already, but I would point to the one where my own opinions were stated:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=38342
There is also another thread currently active.
In short, I think that the EA nation should be mostly genie-based with human nomads as subject race, with MA being based on Khaliphate era (my own version was mostly based on 10th century) and LA on Osmanic Empire.
I agree about difference between city and Bedhuoin troops - you can look up how it was realised in my own attempt in the thread link above.
Considering magic and genies my own short research had shown that appropriate paths should include some Astral (astrology was relatively common, plus genies were often stated as knowing fate of people - plus Arabic folklore is the only place where I've seen something that could be characterized as teleport before 20th century authors). Another thing often mentioned, but mainly with female genies is turning people to animals, charm and production of food/wine - all from Nature path in Dominions. What I decided about this also can be found in the thread above. ;)
As for your graphics - while I myself am not good enough at pixel art (which has already stopped 2 projects), I think yours are good. And I do not think that you should necessarily use an existing tradition of depicting horses in action as rearing. Another thing - Arabs didn't use composite bows like Turks or Mongolians. Their bows were better than common Western design, but not by much, and they didn't particularly like shooting warfare - maybe because of the risk to horses. What they should certainly have is light lancers with very fast horses - which could be deadly at first strike... Later they began to employ a northern Turkish nomads specifically as mounted archers - but those were most often relatively heavy troops (by the way, in Dominions these should be people related to those which conquered Tien Chi in LA, but no name for them is officially given:( )... If you agree with the general concept I propose or have further questions - I am ready to answer and/or provide some content (as are possibly those who took part in previous discussion ;) ).
So, please continue your good work - twenty centuries are looking at you! ;)

[Squirrelloid]

Congratulations!
Another thing - Arabs didn't use composite bows like Turks or Mongolians. Their bows were better than common Western design, but not by much, and they didn't particularly like shooting warfare - maybe because of the risk to horses. What they should certainly have is light lancers with very fast horses - which could be deadly at first strike... Later they began to employ a northern Turkish nomads specifically as mounted archers - but those were most often relatively heavy troops!

Actually, the arabs as of the crusades favored mounted archers, and did use composite bows almost exclusively. Their favorite tactics include riding up to opposing cavalry and firing at close range to shoot the horses out from under them (European cavalry of the time did not wear barding typically, and not at all in the crusades because of exhaustion concerns), and pretending to run away while firing behind them to lead their pursuers into a trap. Islamic mounted archers of the time were perhaps the most accurate in the world, and the practice of archery was quite popular because of Mohammad's pronouncement that archery was the only sport the angels stopped to watch.

Islamic heavy cavalry at the time did not use lances, although they did use spears. The prepared warrior also carried a sword, mace, and axe - although the sword was the preferred weapon (for a number of reasons, but most likely because Mohammad states that the sword is a holy weapon). The idea of a heavy cavalry charge, european style, was shocking to them in the first crusade (and possibly accounts for some crusader wins against superior numbers).

The armor of their light and heavy cavalry was nearly identical - typically a maille shirt, leggings, heavy boots, a metal cap - often worn under turban and robes, although sometimes a metal cuirass was worn on top of this. Heavy cavalry carried a shield.

(Note, in proper usage, 'light' means the unit had a ranged weapon and claims nothing about armor.)

I can provide sources.

[llamabeast]

Tell me squirreloid, does this misuse of the word "light" by dominions bother you? ;)

[Squirrelloid]

Tell me squirreloid, does this misuse of the word "light" by dominions bother you? ;)

Yes, yes it does.

Actually, the rampant misuse of the term by fantasy fans in general does.

I'm pretty sure military buffs get it right, because the distinction between light and heavy still exists, its just weirder now than it was pre-1900.

(Light cavalry today is aircraft. Heavy cavalry is tanks. The light/heavy infantry distinction is, iirc, a matter of armament, mostly to correspond to the historical unit vs. unit dominance paradigm. Ie, with equal training HI > HC; LI > (HI,LC); LC > (HI,HC); HC > LI). So infantry with anti-tank weapons is heavy, and other infantry is light, although with typical modern dispersal of weapon types across squads its no longer really a squad-level distinction)

Of course, dominions also suffers from the 'cavalry is awesome just because it is' syndrome, something also typical of fantasy buffs with little actual military knowledge, and generally based on the dominance of the knight in early medieval europe (which happened because the infantry *did not* have equal training or appropriate weaponry) and a fascination with chivalry and the medieval knight. Such people tend to ignore, eg, Bannockburn (Scotts used makeshift pikes to destroy a cavalry charge) or Avignon (entirely infantry English massacre french cavalry). In addition to not just melting against pikemen, cavalry also get a defensive bonus just for being cavalry. Actual military theory suggests the opposite (cavalry is worse at attacking and defending than infantry because they need to control the horse and fight, whereas the infantry can just concentrate on fighting - heavy cavalry's primary use is therefore running down light infantry).

Ok, this was much longer than intended. Lets just sum up by saying I wish people who did games like this were better at doing their homework.

[Wrana]

Actually, the arabs as of the crusades favored mounted archers, and did use composite bows almost exclusively. Their favorite tactics include riding up to opposing cavalry and firing at close range to shoot the horses out from under them (European cavalry of the time did not wear barding typically, and not at all in the crusades because of exhaustion concerns), and pretending to run away while firing behind them to lead their pursuers into a trap. Islamic mounted archers of the time were perhaps the most accurate in the world, and the practice of archery was quite popular because of Mohammad's pronouncement that archery was the only sport the angels stopped to watch.
Well, you probably remember that Seljuks were not Arab people... ;) I've said that they used Turk mercenaries and/or warrior slaves specifically for this. Pretending to run away certainly took place often. Firing at close range - surely (by the way, Arab farisi often did that with javelins). Generally, hit-and-run tactics was common for Arab warriors. But they didn't use archery so much nor so exclusevely as is often thought. While they often attacked in hand-to-hand.
As for mounted archers... Islamic - probably, Arab - no. And even for the first point you shouldn't say so when you surely remember that the Mongols emerged on the historical scene right at this time! :D For them this was not a sport for angels - but a means to feed their childern... Really, I don't know of a case where individual Turkish and Mongolian bows were tested at the same conditions - but as for using them in mass, Bayazed the Lightning was sent into Tamerlan's capital in an iron cell...

Islamic heavy cavalry at the time did not use lances, although they did use spears. The prepared warrior also carried a sword, mace, and axe - although the sword was the preferred weapon (for a number of reasons, but most likely because Mohammad states that the sword is a holy weapon). The idea of a heavy cavalry charge, european style, was shocking to them in the first crusade (and possibly accounts for some crusader wins against superior numbers).
What you mean by lances then? THey surely didn't use "hand battering rams" of later knights - but then, neither did European knights of the time... ;) They used what is called in the game "light lance" - a long spear used specifically by cavalrymen. Considering other weapons - yes, certainly. I can even add that an Arabian mythology of a sword predates Mohammed (while poetry begins to speak in bow metaphors only after conquest and absorbtion of Persia, by the way). Considering charges I'd say that they probably didn't often perform charges which should carry them through the enemy. Anything more definite would be an overstatement. As for reasons for success of "Franks" in first Crusade - I think there was a number of them, but I didn't study this one in particular detail. There is an opinion that Western knights just used taller and more heavy horses than those in use in Levant and so had a definite advantage in head-on collision. Something may be attributed to difference in armor (even though it was not so big as is often depicted). There were also political reasons... Though the tactics crusaders used had played their role also (but these tactics also included things other than massed mounted charge!).
And of course, considering superior numbers - we should not take crusaders' reports literally. For example, it's certain that the numbers of Constantinopolis' defenders against the 4th Crusade were much less than Villehardouin states. The same is proved in many other instances.

The armor of their light and heavy cavalry was nearly identical - typically a maille shirt, leggings, heavy boots, a metal cap - often worn under turban and robes, although sometimes a metal cuirass was worn on top of this. Heavy cavalry carried a shield.
I wouldn't even be so preposterious as to insist that they HAD definite light and heavy cavalry which had this specific difference in equipment! :D There was difference between farisi and nomad cavalry, yes. Both had warriors with differing arms and armor, yes. But mainly the difference was on individual level, with more wealthy warriors having better equipment (unless they considered speed to be of more advantage, of course!). Joinville states that Bedhouines never wear armor, but I think that it may be a rhethorical overstatement (or he didn't consider light armor they did wear as armor. or any number of other reasons. But this shows that their equipment was lighter as a rule).

(Note, in proper usage, 'light' means the unit had a ranged weapon and claims nothing about armor.)
Ha! You think there is a proper usage?! I've heard several such... :D And in contemporary sources... I remember such termins used by Byzantians (in the usage you consider improper, mostly, afair), but neither Westerners nor Arabs. As for later terminology, it was quite certain in case of cavalry and had no relation to either weapon nor armor: it depended on which horses this type of cavalry used! Unfortunately, using this is unpracticable in case of Dominions... ;) Generally, light vs heavy is defined on the basis of mobility, tactical and mainly strategical. This mobility comes for the cost of lighter equipment, so heavy troops have general advantage on the battlefield. So, for example, pavise crossbowmen were never "light" troops. And while hussars and cuirassirs both had missile weapons and swords, the former were light troops and the latter heavy (and carabineers - really, cuirassirs without cuirass - were heavies, too).

I can provide sources.
So, generally, can I. Isn't it interesting? ;) (except I really don't remember 1st Crusade. But if you insist, I can look up primary sources on this...)

[Squirrelloid]

Actually, the arabs as of the crusades favored mounted archers, and did use composite bows almost exclusively. Their favorite tactics include riding up to opposing cavalry and firing at close range to shoot the horses out from under them (European cavalry of the time did not wear barding typically, and not at all in the crusades because of exhaustion concerns), and pretending to run away while firing behind them to lead their pursuers into a trap. Islamic mounted archers of the time were perhaps the most accurate in the world, and the practice of archery was quite popular because of Mohammad's pronouncement that archery was the only sport the angels stopped to watch.
Well, you probably remember that Seljuks were not Arab people... ;) I've said that they used Turk mercenaries and/or warrior slaves specifically for this. Pretending to run away certainly took place often. Firing at close range - surely (by the way, Arab farisi often did that with javelins). Generally, hit-and-run tactics was common for Arab warriors. But they didn't use archery so much nor so exclusevely as is often thought. While they often attacked in hand-to-hand.
As for mounted archers... Islamic - probably, Arab - no. And even for the first point you shouldn't say so when you surely remember that the Mongols emerged on the historical scene right at this time! :D For them this was not a sport for angels - but a means to feed their childern... Really, I don't know of a case where individual Turkish and Mongolian bows were tested at the same conditions - but as for using them in mass, Bayazed the Lightning was sent into Tamerlan's capital in an iron cell...

So, I need to dig up sources for some of the rest of your comments, but I am quite certain on this point. The mongols were just coming into mesopotamia during the time of the crusades, and were even initially friendly towards the crusaders (and hostile to the Islamic empire). Thus they certainly weren't 'mongol' or other steppes tribe archers - those would certainly come later, but not during the (at least early) crusades. It wouldn't be until the mongols switched to preferring Islam to Christianity (due to the death of a leader - the Ilkhan maybe? - who was pro-Christian) that steppes tribe archers would become avaialable.

Now, what I read didn't make it clear if the archers are specifically arab - i'd guess they were drawn from across the islamic world, which may have included various middle eastern peoples such as persians, egyptians, etc...

What you mean by lances then? THey surely didn't use "hand battering rams" of later knights - but then, neither did European knights of the time... They used what is called in the game "light lance" - a long spear used specifically by cavalrymen. Considering other weapons - yes, certainly. I can even add that an Arabian mythology of a sword predates Mohammed (while poetry begins to speak in bow metaphors only after conquest and absorbtion of Persia, by the way). Considering charges I'd say that they probably didn't often perform charges which should carry them through the enemy. Anything more definite would be an overstatement. As for reasons for success of "Franks" in first Crusade - I think there was a number of them, but I didn't study this one in particular detail. There is an opinion that Western knights just used taller and more heavy horses than those in use in Levant and so had a definite advantage in head-on collision. Something may be attributed to difference in armor (even though it was not so big as is often depicted). There were also political reasons... Though the tactics crusaders used had played their role also (but these tactics also included things other than massed mounted charge!).
And of course, considering superior numbers - we should not take crusaders' reports literally. For example, it's certain that the numbers of Constantinopolis' defenders against the 4th Crusade were much less than Villehardouin states. The same is proved in many other instances.

First of all, the 'lance' as we think of it requires the invention of the stirrup, so pre-stirrup (before ~900AD) cavalry clearly aren't using a 'lance' as we mean it.

A 'light lance' still has some technological innovations which separate it from a spear, such as a crossbar behind the head to stop penetration from going too deeply (so it can be withdrawn and used again relatively quickly). We have artistic evidence for such a device in Byzantium at around the time of the crusades, I know.

Lance, especially the mechanical benefits the game employs, requires that it be couched and the momentum of the horse used as the primary force behind the weapon. This is what constitutes the effectiveness of the european heavy cavalry charge.

This is more confusing because the term lance is older than the object that matches our modern conception of a lance, and was basically any spear-like object generally when used from horseback. Thus period sources may use the term, but they don't necessarily mean what we mean by the term.

European horses were actually smaller than their islamic adversaries' horses - which was why muslim forces used barding in the hot climate while the europeans didn't - less risk of exhausting a larger horse. European horse stock got larger as a result of the first crusade because they could interbreed arabian horses with european horses.

Armor was indeed mostly equivalent, at least in type. Not sure about quality.

And political reasons explain the 1st crusades strategic advantage, but not its apparent tactical advantage. AFAICT the tactical advantage is due to the heavy cavalry charge and the crossbow, both of which we have contemporary muslim comments about.

[Wrana]

So, I need to dig up sources for some of the rest of your comments, but I am quite certain on this point. The mongols were just coming into mesopotamia during the time of the crusades, and were even initially friendly towards the crusaders (and hostile to the Islamic empire). Thus they certainly weren't 'mongol' or other steppes tribe archers - those would certainly come later, but not during the (at least early) crusades. It wouldn't be until the mongols switched to preferring Islam to Christianity (due to the death of a leader - the Ilkhan maybe? - who was pro-Christian) that steppes tribe archers would become avaialable.
So let's start digging! :)
As for Mongols' disposition you are quite right. But you've said that Islamic archers were the best in time. ;) So, while I'm not sure at all about Hungarians (who even sometimes took part in Crusades afair, being Catholic) and while Byzantines were not better in horse archery than Turkish peoples, the Mongolians provided clear example that your overstatement was somewhat too bold... :D
As for archers available I've said that they came from Turkic tribes. Mongolians weren't the only people on the steppes at the time - though they came to be their overlords.
Considering switching to Islam - it came to western Hordes with succession of Ouzbek-khan to the throne. Before this time they had a complete freedom to choose among their old shamanic faith, Islam, Christianity (Orthodox or Nestorian mainly) or Buddhism. Some leaders of early period were Christian , while others saw a political advantage in making common cause with Christians against Islamic states. Joinville writes that these negotiations came to naught due to "the Khan" offering Lois X to become his subject (not that this wasn't inappropriate considering difference in their power at the moment! ;) )

Now, what I read didn't make it clear if the archers are specifically arab - i'd guess they were drawn from across the islamic world, which may have included various middle eastern peoples such as persians, egyptians, etc...
I wouldn't say egyptians as these people were mainly non-combatant by the time of islamic conquest. Military elite in this country consisted of foreigners almost(?) exclusively. Persians quite probably, but I don't know how many of their warrior caste was drafted into Islam armies and how many were killed or banished. Turkic peoples of the steppes (there were many tribes of them), however, were available and it's known that they were used, forming core of Ghulams and Mamluks in various Islamic states.

What you mean by lances then? THey surely didn't use "hand battering rams" of later knights - but then, neither did European knights of the time... They used what is called in the game "light lance" - a long spear used specifically by cavalrymen. Considering other weapons - yes, certainly. I can even add that an Arabian mythology of a sword predates Mohammed (while poetry begins to speak in bow metaphors only after conquest and absorbtion of Persia, by the way). Considering charges I'd say that they probably didn't often perform charges which should carry them through the enemy. Anything more definite would be an overstatement. As for reasons for success of "Franks" in first Crusade - I think there was a number of them, but I didn't study this one in particular detail. There is an opinion that Western knights just used taller and more heavy horses than those in use in Levant and so had a definite advantage in head-on collision. Something may be attributed to difference in armor (even though it was not so big as is often depicted). There were also political reasons... Though the tactics crusaders used had played their role also (but these tactics also included things other than massed mounted charge!).
And of course, considering superior numbers - we should not take crusaders' reports literally. For example, it's certain that the numbers of Constantinopolis' defenders against the 4th Crusade were much less than Villehardouin states. The same is proved in many other instances.

First of all, the 'lance' as we think of it requires the invention of the stirrup, so pre-stirrup (before ~900AD) cavalry clearly aren't using a 'lance' as we mean it.
Yes, though first stirrups are dated somewhat earlier afaik - at about 5-6th centuries AD. This is on the steppes, however. In Europe they appeared later, but the heavy cavalry of Charlemaigne already had them afair. Another 2 things which you need for true lance are deep "western" saddle and preferably cuirass to take an impact from you shoulder to this saddle. (also see below)

A 'light lance' still has some technological innovations which separate it from a spear, such as a crossbar behind the head to stop penetration from going too deeply (so it can be withdrawn and used again relatively quickly). We have artistic evidence for such a device in Byzantium at around the time of the crusades, I know.
I'd name such a weapon ranseur... And using this as a distinhuishing feature you'll have to drop weapons of the later cavalry to "non-lance" category. But 18-19 century ulans (sp.), cuirassirs and Cossacks used them from horseback on charge quite handily. And these were specific cavalry weapons, to be used on charge.

Lance, especially the mechanical benefits the game employs, requires that it be couched and the momentum of the horse used as the primary force behind the weapon. This is what constitutes the effectiveness of the european heavy cavalry charge.
The part about momentum is true. But there is more than one way to use it. The first one known was probably contos - another "battering ram" which Macedonian heavy cavalry affixed to horses themselves with quite qood results. Later Alans and other steppe peoples used their lances two-handed. Byzantines also took this approach for a time iirc.
As for "european" charge (and you must remember that Byzantium and Hungary are also a part of Europe, even if you won't include Russia! :) ) you've quite probably seen the depiction of Willhelm of Normandy taking England. Here it's clearly seen that couching is used as only one of ways of using spear/lance. At the same time, Ousama ibn Munkidh's memoirs clearly state at least one case where he used couching attack (I think it's also mentioned by Joineville). But "eastern" saddle wasn't so good for this method (as rider sits higher, often rising from the saddle altogether - making it more useful for archery). So they never came to using couching and heavy ("true") lances exclusively (and Poles, e.g. used couching, but lighter lances) - still, they used relatively heavy weapon held two-handed which allowed usage of the horse's momentum on charge (yes, it still wasn't as good for this as classical lance, but it was often enough - and this technics was also useful for fencing with it.
Returning to mounted charge, it was a function of horses' speed and mass - but it also depended on the formation as a whole. One knight was relatively harmless - it was a coordinated attack of a formation of them which caused enemies to flee or be trampled under hooves. The later term for this was an "attack en murraile"(sp?), i.e., "as a wall", many knights (or later cuirassiers) coming at an enemy at one moment, declining them an opportunity to combine against any one knight or sidestep his attack. If I had to name any one thing that constitutes efficiency of a mounted charge, I'd name this. An additional advantage of it was that if lighter troops wanted to evade such a charge, they had to either ride directly from attacking heavies or risk that their "tail" would be caught in the charge and killed off (with this risk rising proportionally to their numbers, by the way). And with troops without discipline of Mongols riding directly from enemy attack could easily turn into a complete route...

This is more confusing because the term lance is older than the object that matches our modern conception of a lance, and was basically any spear-like object generally when used from horseback. Thus period sources may use the term, but they don't necessarily mean what we mean by the term.
Surely. But this is so with most weapons - conventional terms appear later, either with dedicated fencing schools, or with regular armies, bureaucracy and logistics. What is broadsword, for example? Anything which isn't a fencing sword/rapier and isn't short. At different times and places it could be two-handed weapon, Scottish claybeg, medieval one-handed sword, Cuirassier's sword - or Chinese falchion-like weapon! And this is relatively late term... Generally, a specific name followed a specific use of a weapon - so we can quite readily consider that if a weapon was named so, it was used in this way. And in context of the game we may consider without fear of reprisal from Language Police ;) that a weapon designed and used in a specific way should have appropriate stats...

European horses were actually smaller than their islamic adversaries' horses - which was why muslim forces used barding in the hot climate while the europeans didn't - less risk of exhausting a larger horse. European horse stock got larger as a result of the first crusade because they could interbreed arabian horses with european horses.
I'm not so sure about this. It's certainly known that knights often stated that they didn't have good horses. It's known, of course, that they used Arabian blood to mingle with their horses. But Arabian line is much smaller than modern European ones! There are very tall horses of Persian and Caucasus lines - but I remember no evidence that they actually were used for breeding of European lines. Do you? Of course, a hybrid of far-removed lines can become larger and stronger than either of them... But this doesn't support a thesis that Arabian line was larger either. And what you base a thesis of smaller horse being exhausted easier on? I can say that the lines which have the longest wind among modern horses are Mongolian and Cossak lines - both smallish, though thicker than Arabians...
Unfortunately, most sources on earlier horse lineage were written by professionals for professionals - and they considered that anyone who would read their books would already know general lines and terminology by heart. Plus, many things were written down from hearsay, without attempts to really analyse lines' genesis. Still, there are some things which can be rejected based on logic and hard evidence, and some things can be proved on this. What made you think that Arabian horses were larger?

And political reasons explain the 1st crusades strategic advantage, but not its apparent tactical advantage. AFAICT the tactical advantage is due to the heavy cavalry charge and the crossbow, both of which we have contemporary muslim comments about.
Crossbow surely. This remains to be the same by the time of Lois the Holy. Ibn Munkidh mentions it also, iirc. The line or ring of dismounted knights is another thing mentioned often (particularly in Richard Lionheart's crusade). Charge is mentioned, but I don't remember particular Muslim comments. What I do remember is that it was quite successful in cases whan it was massed, organized and driven home. Meaning that formation and at least some discipline were important, more than couching as such...

(in the game, by the way, it means high Morale of knights - meaning also that you were right about making Arab-based non-sacreds with lower morale... At the same time, light lances are quite appropriate. Also, Arab horses should be better than those of other light cavalry)

[elmokki]

I made some better attack sprites for some units. Can't say the viziers' attack sprites are much better than the old ones, but slightly anyway. Need to find a better sprite to base them on, but I do like the non-attack sprite.

I tried making a helmet that pokes from the headpiece of those soldiers, but I failed miserably. Does anyone have a good idea on how to make the soldiers look like they have helmets while still keeping them arabic enough looking?

[Burnsaber]

I made some better attack sprites for some units. Can't say the viziers' attack sprites are much better than the old ones, but slightly anyway. Need to find a better sprite to base them on, but I do like the non-attack sprite.


One thing to make your life a lot of easier: you can really go easy on the attack sprites. As long as there is something moving and no "bugs"(like changes in equipment), it'll be fine, trust me on this. About the vizier pic, I've actually used the attack sprite as a base for a unit (see the Holy War mod preview mod, link in sig, feel free to use it if you want.), I really like the pose (actually, to make a vizier hero, just gove the attack sprite a wand or something and tadaa! new unit!).


I tried making a helmet that pokes from the headpiece of those soldiers, but I failed miserably. Does anyone have a good idea on how to make the soldiers look like they have helmets while still keeping them arabic enough looking?

Second thing to make your life easier: Cover stuff up. Example: I was making the graphic in my avatar, but couldn't make the shading in the waist look right after 30 minutes of shading & re-shading I just copy-pasted that girdle on him. Problem solved.

I mean, would be such a stretch just to assume that they can wear helmet under that turban?

[Gregstrom]

I mean, would be such a stretch just to assume that they can wear helmet under that turban?

I thought that was what they did. Or was that in India?

[elmokki]

I mean, would be such a stretch just to assume that they can wear helmet under that turban?

That IS the original approach I took after my first failure the first time I tried to make decent looking arabic headgear ;)

But yeah, sure, if I can't get a proper helmet-poking-under-a-turban I'll just skip that.

[elmokki]

I mean, would be such a stretch just to assume that they can wear helmet under that turban?

I thought that was what they did. Or was that in India?

The look I was originally after is lookable at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mohammad_Adil_Rais-Muslim_warrior_during_rashidun_caliphate.PNG

The current look is far from that, but I'm relatively happy with it.

[elmokki]

Here's some more units. Most are just improved older sprites though. Remember, instead of EA I've decided this is MA. All that recruitable djinn stuff suits better for EA.

The descriptions in the image are just preliminary and do apparently lack helmets, which will mostly be reinforced leather caps and iron caps.

The image is lacking atleast:
- Scout (shortbow, scimitar, reinforced leather, stealth)
- Assassin (the generic one should be fine)
- Commander (armed like scimitar infantry)
- Mubarizun commander (armed like a mubarizun)
- Beduin leader (armed like a beduin raider)

I also have considered the following:
- Some capital only H3 priest
- Mystic (1S, 1H, stealthy, sacred, possibly a spy?)
- Some sort of scholar (= researcher) unit might suite quite well. I reckon it's either mystic or scholar though. Could be capital only.
- Some other chainmail armored cavalry unit
- A camel rider is an intriguing idea, but what purpose does it serve? Worse cavalry with wasteland survival isn't really a good enough niche to be worth it in most cases, and I think most if not all units deserve wasteland survival anyway. The EA version of this nation could have less horses and more camels as a theme of horses being rare though.
- Grand Vizier might be a capital only unit. Depends on how powerful the nation will end up being. The main mages won't be sacred, so that'll make them less powerful anyway though.
- Mubarizun are probably capital only, atleast if they're good enough. I might also call them with some other name, but this name shall suit for the time being.
- I am not happy with the magic paths of the two mages, but it's pretty hard to figure out what'd suit well. Current setup would probably make viziers too useless in combat.

Should the beduins be stealthy by the way? If so, should they have regular leather instead of reinforced leather? I'm a bit in between.

I did decide I'll make scimitars instead of using falchions. I guess they'll have the same stats as a longsword. That'll increase the survivability of sword infantry too.

[Lurker_at_Threshold]

The capital only H3 priest could be named a mufti. If you could individually hijack a nations option for a unique profit, while still keeping them playable, the dwarf smith could be a good option.

I'd imagine that Vizier's would have some combat utility stemming from the weak evocations, particularly fire combined with aim. Although forging additional boosters could be difficult.

If you would want to improve magical diversity you could always a recruitible everywhere magician with a crap shoot of elemental magic (FAWE)or another with minor death, and a chance at an elemental path.

[elmokki]

The capital only H3 priest could be named a mufti. If you could individually hijack a nations option for a unique profit, while still keeping them playable, the dwarf smith could be a good option.

I'd imagine that Vizier's would have some combat utility stemming from the weak evocations, particularly fire combined with aim. Although forging additional boosters could be difficult.

If you would want to improve magical diversity you could always a recruitible everywhere magician with a crap shoot of elemental magic (FAWE)or another with minor death, and a chance at an elemental path.

I actually am rethinking if air is so crucial path to have atleast as a major one. Fire sure is, djinns are beings of smokeless fire, and astral feels correct too. Having water, air, earth or most of them as minor picks sounds interesting too though.

Anyway, viziers' problem was that 1F 1A can't do anything. It's 50% chance to get 2F or 2A and to be able to shoot atleast some proper evocations and 25% chance to get 1S for communions. 25% of the viziers would be useless apart from as researchers with their 1A 1F 1E paths. Not too awful though.

One draft for magics would be to make the viziers really versatile mages. For example something like following:

- Grand Vizier, 3F 1S, 200% AWES, 10% AWESF
- Vizier 2F 1S, 110% AWESF
- Mystic 1S (possibly 100% SD instead of 1S)

The 1S on especially vizier allows communions, making it always useful.

The problem just is that this'd produce a huge pile of crappy mages. I would love to use linked paths, 100% chance to have 2 levels of AWESF for grand vizier, but the modding commands for that make the modded units look buggy in recruiting screen.

Second option would be to have the following:

- Grand Vizier as it is
- Vizier as it is
- Mystic with 100% SD
- A scholar with 100% AWEF

But yeah, I don't know. It's pretty hard as I'd like to have plenty of viziers with different magic paths, but most setups lead to too many of them having relatively useless magic paths.

EDIT: Imam will be renamed mullah. That suits better for a H1 priest. Imam might be a seperate H2 priest or the H3 priest.

[Burnsaber]

Evrything I say below is just an suggestion. Feel free to ignore my ramblings should you feel the need for it.


I also have considered the following:
- Some capital only H3 priest
- Mystic (1S, 1H, stealthy, sacred, possibly a spy?)


For the graphics, may I suggest that you just recolor the guys in the Holy War preview pic (under "The Celestial Choir")? Recoloring the white in them to black should probably make them blend nicely with the Imam pic you already got (a'k'a making black the color of the priesthood).



- Some sort of scholar (= researcher) unit might suite quite well. I reckon it's either mystic or scholar though. Could be capital only.


Well, your mages aren't currently very "combatique", perhaps you could give them minor bonus (like ~1) to compensate?


- A camel rider is an intriguing idea, but what purpose does it serve? Worse cavalry with wasteland survival isn't really a good enough niche to be worth it in most cases, and I think most if not all units deserve wasteland survival anyway. The EA version of this nation could have less horses and more camels as a theme of horses being rare though.


Well, if you can't see any justification for a unit (althought I agree that in EA camels would make more sense) it's better to just scrap it. There's no idea on filling the roster with useless units. It's just extra work for no gain.


- I am not happy with the magic paths of the two mages, but it's pretty hard to figure out what'd suit well. Current setup would probably make viziers too useless in combat.


I remember suggesting this some time ago, but it was probably in some other thread. National combat spells. Here are some ideas:

Desert Wind: AoE AP fire fatigue damage.

Djinn combat summon: This is depended upon how prevelavent the Djinns are in the MA, do you still have some as summons?

Trickery of the Djinn: Slightly better "Confusion".

Fury of the Desert: Troops buff that gives fire resistance + haste + (quickness?)

But you probably have better ideas, considering all the research you've done. If you aren't sure what is possible by spell modding, just ask. I happen to have some experience in the subject. If you need something complicated, I'd be more than happy to help you out with the code.


Should the beduins be stealthy by the way? If so, should they have regular leather instead of reinforced leather? I'm a bit in between.


Hmm. Reinforced leather is basically normal leather armor with some metal plates hanging from it. The Beduins could easily trade for those, so even with their lack of forging, it would make sense.

I'd like re-state that everything I say is just a suggestion. I'm just very intrested in this project. You see, I'm a Byzantium addict. It's been a dream of mine to do a new version of Pythium with more Constantinople (Greek fire, Varangian Guards, Icons and sh*t) and less Hydras and overpowered priest mages. With your mod and this hypothetical mod of mine (if you ever finish this, I'll make it thought) we could re-enact the Byzantium wars. Heck, I even might a dip my toe inmap-making and make a map out of some image of Turk + Greece.

[elmokki]

This should have all recruitable units apart from the assassin.

By how it seems to turn out in my head, this nation won't have too much standing power compared to many other nations, but has a relatively good magic diversity, decent raiders, and with djinn-summons and dervishes possibly a meaningful niche for a water bless - though I reckon both djinn and dervishes will die horribly from archers before you start using arrow fend and/or storm.

Next up I'll need to make heroes. I reckon Abdul Alhazred, Ali Baba (along with bandits!) and Sinbad atleast.

Alhazred will be an insane heretic S3D2B2 mage.
Ali Baba will be a bandit leader, nothing too special.
Sinbad will just be a sailing commander with bad event prevention.

EDIT: Alchemist is probably capital only. I think mystics will be sacred.

[Lurker_at_Threshold]

Looks great, I like the new sprites. The alchemists will be a useful tool for site searching/forging and the most likely source for the all important dwarven hammer.

The mystic should probably be sacred given the role that sufi's had in spreading islam in both Asia and Africa, not to mention that they were responsible for founding many a dervish lodge.

As for your physical heroes, are you thinking about giving them the CBM treatment?

[elmokki]

The mystic should probably be sacred given the role that sufi's had in spreading islam in both Asia and Africa, not to mention that they were responsible for founding many a dervish lodge.
Well, I just realized all priests have to be sacred anyway :)

As for your physical heroes, are you thinking about giving them the CBM treatment?
What would that be? Highly increased stats?

[Lurker_at_Threshold]

What would that be? Highly increased stats?

Slightly increased stats, a minor magical item or two, and a secondary affliction causing attack. Enough to make them thugable in the same sense as a Sleeper, but hardly a super combatant.

[elmokki]

What would that be? Highly increased stats?

Slightly increased stats, a minor magical item or two, and a secondary affliction causing attack. Enough to make them thugable in the same sense as a Sleeper, but hardly a super combatant.

Sounds fair. Better than having all the cool heroes just work as normal infantry shepherds.

Anyway, I put up all the work so far as a playable nation. Please give feedback on unit stats and prices.

I'll edit the first post too.

EDIT: For the sake of my sanity, the downloadable version will only be up at the first post

[Sombre]

I like the look - simple, clean, fits in with dom3.

I'd love to see camel cavalry. I think there are a few ways you could make them very buildable units - they could be camel archers with prec 11, composite bows and mapmove 3 (good precision because the camel can support a more stable mount for archery). They could have animal awe and thus be elephant counters - perhaps the smell drives away other animals. They could provide supplies to your units. They could have some other fun justification based on camel mythology ;] They could also have especially good riders, who pick the camel because of its status in their culture.

[elmokki]

I'd love to see camel cavalry. I think there are a few ways you could make them very buildable units - they could be camel archers with prec 11, composite bows and mapmove 3 (good precision because the camel can support a more stable mount for archery). They could have animal awe and thus be elephant counters - perhaps the smell drives away other animals. They could provide supplies to your units. They could have some other fun justification based on camel mythology ;] They could also have especially good riders, who pick the camel because of its status in their culture.

Sounds like a good idea.

Here's a preliminary sprite. As far as I know the camel is a smaller animal than a horse in real life though, so the camel is far too big.

[llamabeast]

Animal awe would be good on camels. In real life I believe they were effective against horses because of the smell. Unfortunately you can't make them good against cavalry in dom3, but you can at least make them good against elephants (and monkeys).

I also like the idea of the camel rider being elite.

Edit (elmokki posted while I was typing): Very nice camel!

Edit again: I think something funny has happened to the camel rider's legs. They are very small.

[elmokki]

Apparently an adult dromedary camel can be 2.15 meters from land to the top of the hump, and riding horses in general seem to be 1.6 meters from land to the start of their neck. The sprite size should actually be good enough.

I'll fix the legs once I come back from my night shift job where I'll be going in next 5 minutes.

The camel sprite is wasteland survival icon resized too 200% and smoothened out to not look so pixelated.

[Burnsaber]

The camel sprite is wasteland survival icon resized too 200% and smoothened out to not look so pixelated.

Man. That's freaking clever. Never even gave a single thought for this.

Don't know if it means anything, but you got my respect. Those sprites look good, too.

[elmokki]

I'm glad you like the camel, I'm personally surprised how good it became. I didn't expect much.

Anyway, first post is updated with new image and mod with Camel Cavalry, Camel Archer and Camel in a few minutes. I don't know if I should make the camel fight by itself if the rider dies, I don't think they're that aggressive animals. I made the camel a seperate unit for a low level N-summon al-Nadim can summon with indies or pretender ;)


EDIT: How can you add line breaks to #summary, or will I have to find out the exact amount of times I'll have to press space bar?

The lancer (somewhat more armored cavalry with light lance) feels pretty useless unit now. Light lance isn't too awesome and the only advantanges it has compared to camel cavalry is really the first strike bonus, combat speed and price, while it completely loses on long term damage, strategic movement and survivability.

Also, I need to make a camel riding commander. A camel riding supreme vizier rainbow pretender sounds cool too, but there's really not much need for that


Man. That's freaking clever. Never even gave a single thought for this.
Next up: Hippo riding EA Machaka unit ;)

[elmokki]

I hope you won't mind, Burnsaber, that I used a sprite from Holy War with so little modification for ifrit. The sprite just was really good for this :)

Anyway, here's an ifrit and a marid. Both are very lowly members of their species' and there'll sure be stronger (and larger) djinnis.

They'll probably have 75% resistance to their own elements, possibly some fire resistance on marid (all djinni are supposed to be beings of smokeless fire afaik) and a weak fire shield on ifrit. I don't know about awe, but it's possibly. They'll both be flying of course.

Naturally, if or once there's more work on an EA arabic nation, those sprites will get priority.

[Burnsaber]

I hope you won't mind, Burnsaber, that I used a sprite from Holy War with so little modification for ifrit. The sprite just was really good for this :)


Njah. I don't mind. More like honored. But it's a quite cheap graphic you know? I just recolored a Mictlan priest into red and gave it the flames of an Agarthan Magma Child. I didn't even have to change the pose, I just drew the halberd on top of it.

Also, I remembered some graphics presented in the F&W thug mod. Perhaps they can be some sort of inspiration?

Here are some by Aezeal.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com//showpost.php?p=689435&postcount=6

Here is a one form me. The Torso probably could serve as part on a big efreet. It's recolor of a Mictlan summon (blue-skin + scorpion tail, forgot his name). Zlefin only used the silhoutte in his mod, so you can do pretty much anything with the pic.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com//showpost.php?p=693326&postcount=9

[elmokki]

I hope you won't mind, Burnsaber, that I used a sprite from Holy War with so little modification for ifrit. The sprite just was really good for this :)


Njah. I don't mind. More like honored. But it's a quite cheap graphic you know? I just recolored a Mictlan priest into red and gave it the flames of an Agarthan Magma Child. I didn't even have to change the pose, I just drew the halberd on top of it.

Also, I remembered some graphics presented in the F&W thug mod. Perhaps they can be some sort of inspiration?

Here are some by Aezeal.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com//showpost.php?p=689435&postcount=6

Here is a one form me. The Torso probably could serve as part on a big efreet. It's recolor of a Mictlan summon (blue-skin + scorpion tail, forgot his name). Zlefin only used the silhoutte in his mod, so you can do pretty much anything with the pic.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com//showpost.php?p=693326&postcount=9

Those Aezeal's sprites actually look more like genies in tales, which is pretty good. On the other hand if I go with the current look, that solarion of yours is a perfect match for a bigger ifrit.

The problem is I personally am not very interested in making a recruitable djinn-based nation, but would happily look into graphics. I need someone who is more interested in the game mechanical part of recruitable djinnis before I do many djinnis of my own - since the djinnis here should be the same that are recruitable in earlier era :)

[Burnsaber]

Those Aezeal's sprites actually look more like genies in tales, which is pretty good. On the other hand if I go with the current look, that solarion of yours is a perfect match for a bigger ifrit.


Well you could sorta have both. If I recall the Djinn stuff correctly, they're desripted both as tricksy conmen and masters of the elements. Sometimes they're really dumb and get tricked by humans.

Perhaps divide the attributes to two different Djinn? A tricksy wish granting one and "EFREET BURN!!! EFREET MAD!!" types of massive flmaing bulks of elemental muscle. The tricksy could be more effective mages with diverse paths while the dumb ones are thug/Sc chassises made incarnate with lots of power in single path.

[elmokki]

I updated the first post with spells to summon the two djinns and camels. Oh yeah, and I added a camel commander.

I'm not really happy with how ifrit and marid sprites look like. They're just too blue or red. I guess I'll remake them from a scratch later.

Anyway, I'm more or less off for the weekend and I'd really like to have someone actually comment the stats of the units while I'm gone. I bet they're completely out of balance.

[Lurker_at_Threshold]

I played a test game using a duel bless strategy (astral, water) which works amazingly well with the Dervishes. However in doing so I noticed something that is extremely broken. Base scimitars are magical and have a length of 7. Somehow I don't think dervishes are carrying two swords longer than pikes into combat. All things considered Dervishes seem to be a very good recruit everywhere sacred, that synchronizes well with the air buffing spells and the capital only H3 priests. The basic archers are nice and cheap, and equipped with flaming arrow potential, and the elite infantry is very capable of holding a line.

[elmokki]

I played a test game using a duel bless strategy (astral, water) which works amazingly well with the Dervishes. However in doing so I noticed something that is extremely broken. Base scimitars are magical and have a length of 7. Somehow I don't think dervishes are carrying two swords longer than pikes into combat. All things considered Dervishes seem to be a very good recruit everywhere sacred, that synchronizes well with the air buffing spells and the capital only H3 priests. The basic archers are nice and cheap, and equipped with flaming arrow potential, and the elite infantry is very capable of holding a line.

Thanks for input.

I'd say scimitars being length 7 and magical would be some kind of a problem with other mods not synchronizing with this one. I changed the ids today to ones that should work better. I mean, I just checked and they're damage 5, att 1, def 1, length 2

I'm afraid dervishes are too good for the price, but they should die rather easily in early game to about any type of archers. With robes as only armor it's really easy to get them killed to indies without a high air bless or buff spells. That said, storm and arrow fend will make them far more survivable. Dervishes might get a minor price increase, but in the end while they're better than serpent dancers of EA C'tis (two weapons, berserk), they aren't world breakingly better. Then again I'm afraid the prices aren't too well balanced on most units apart from the basic infantry :)

The elite infantry, Mubarizun, might become limited to capital only.

Camel troops' animal awe is also making me nerveous, though it is very situational.

[llamabeast]

Serpent dancers are terrible though. You shouldn't feel obliged to balance against them.

[chrispedersen]

In addition to not just melting against pikemen, cavalry also get a defensive bonus just for being cavalry. Actual military theory suggests the opposite (cavalry is worse at attacking and defending than infantry because they need to control the horse and fight, whereas the infantry can just concentrate on fighting - heavy cavalry's primary use is therefore running down light infantry).

Ok, this was much longer than intended. Lets just sum up by saying I wish people who did games like this were better at doing their homework.

Wow.

I disagree with a lot of this.
Show me a source please that suggests actual military theory suggests that cavalry is worse at attacking and defending than infantry because of the need to control the horse.

Off the top of my head I'd say this ignores:
A: Superior elevation of the cavalry man.
B: Significant training of war horses, to attack, to stand over, to crowd.
C: Ability to cover distance at speed.
D: Shock effect of calvalry ie., momentum.
E. Superior reach of the typical cavalry.
F. The ability of the horse to be cover (ala american indians)
G. The ability to transport goods and or be food.

No military unit is invulnerable. It certainly is a game of rocks, scissors, and paper, that has been played time and time again.


Cavalry get a defensive bonus because the cost of these units were such that it was foolhardy to deploy them without training - whereas it was common to deploy huge masses of levees (infantry) with no training - and sometimes no weapons.

For example, even in WWII, in many companies, the Russians at Leningrad issued 2 guns for every 5 soldiers. The ones that didn't have guns were expected to pick them up off the ones that did.

The 'troops' had no training - and were shot by their officers at the merest hint of disobedience.

Or the us airforce - our airmen are highly highly trained. Those planes are *expensive*. The more expensive the munition, the easier to justify additional training, equipment, care in deployment etc.

[Nasser]

This is looking pretty cool, can't wait to hear your ideas re: more powerful dijinn.

[the Vanishag]

This is looking pretty cool

Totally.

If you decide to do multiple eras for this nation, a "Caliphate" version could have Mamluk heavy infantry and lancers (high morale, chain or scale armor and half-helms). <a href="http://www.bebo.com/PhotoAlbumBig.jsp?PageNbr=1&MemberId=5088670821&PhotoAlbumId=6283208225&PhotoId=6344538334">Here's an example.</a>

[elmokki]

This is looking pretty cool

Totally.

If you decide to do multiple eras for this nation, a "Caliphate" version could have Mamluk heavy infantry and lancers (high morale, chain or scale armor and half-helms). <a href="http://www.bebo.com/PhotoAlbumBig.jsp?PageNbr=1&MemberId=5088670821&PhotoAlbumId=6283208225&PhotoId=6344538334">Here's an example.</a>

That'd be LA. But yeah, should suit LA much better to have that kind of helmets. It's just that I don't have much clue about LA theme more than heavily armored troops with some Mamluk/Ottoman theme. I personally don't care much about exact historicality, it's not like Dominions 3 is a historical game. Besides, the original human nations are based on relatively many nations when they're based on real life nations at all :)

Regarding djinn in general, I would like to copy summons from an EA mod commanders. But if there won't be one without me, it'll probably be mostly with marids and ifrit, three tiers, lowest being soldiers, middle being weak mages and the highest being very powerful mages.

Both trees would be more or less thuggable, the most powerful djinn might even have SC capability. Ifrit have fire shield and marids have glamour. I think awe doesn't suit out well enough to be in. Awe + glamour would easily make overpowered units anyway. Ifrit are described as strong and cunning while marids are (magically) the most powerful djinn. That'd make ifrits more combat orientated while having marids as more powerful mages.

Then there would be ghul, possibly with some more distinctive name. It's a death summon that can transform to a beautiful seducing lady or some animal form I can't remember, like one of the lanka units. I think the ghul is supposed to have hooves in every form, but that'll just be cool.

I'm also tempted to make a rhino summon, because there if I remember right are some (persian, but whatever) tales about rhinos described as mythical beings. That is if I can be arsed to make a decent rhino sprite or die trying.

Rhino and ghul would proably be summons al-Nadim won't have a good access to though.

I got to look around more about djinns once I get home - too much of a pain with gprs. Currently I don't really see much warranting the air magic in fire/air/astral of viziers. Should be fire/water/astral more likely.

[Lurker_at_Threshold]

For your upper level Jinn tiers it could be something like this.

The second tier could be Ifrit and Marid Beys. The Ifrit Bey's would be thugable, with a powerful fire shield and full fire resistance. Its choice in magic could be 2F with 110% for FSD. The Marid Bey would have full ice resistance and weaker stats, but would have much more powerful magic, something like 2W 1S 200% WSA

The third tier could be the Jinn Sultans. The Sultans would be a larger version of their respective Beys. Magic wise an Ifrit Sultan would have 3F 2E 2S 110% FSD. Whereas the Marid Sultan would have something like 3W 3S 2A with 210% WSA.

If you want to take out Air you could probably replace the Air magic with nature.

[elmokki]

First of all is a recolor for marid. Is it better? Personally I prefer the light blue over the far too dark blue. Ifrit's shade of red isn't that bad.

Secondly I tried out what ifrit and marid could look like without the fire/water on feet. Is it good? Should I draw the normal sprites too? I personally am a bit in between. I reckon the new look might be good especially if I add some light clothing (a vest that won't cover whole upper torso and possibly a turban) and possibly make the "feet" go directly downwards instead of that curve.

And then lastly there's my slightly liberal take on ghul. Ghul are said to be able to take form of a hyena and human and to lure travellers from their way.

A specific hyena form felt pretty useless and what's better for luring travellers from their way than a girl? (she's even chaste, she has that cloth part on her mouth!). Well, yeah, partially I made the were-hyena form just since I couldn't make up a decent look for a non were-hyena ghul, but were-hyena will probably be weak enough to not make it too über with the death/fire the ghul has.

Oh yeah, and ghul definately isn't anything like the ghoul in dominions.

[BandarLover]

Looking good Elmokki. I think these are a smidge better than your original pics, meaning I liked both of your renders so far, these a little bit more so. :D

Love the Were-hyena! Good idea to go with a Were-form instead of a reg hyena look. Me likey.

[elmokki]

I figure this is how the lowest ifrit and marid will look like. I gave them regular scimitars instead of magical weapons and a shield. I prefer having the elemental bases for them for now atleast.

Ghul's were-hyena form had slightly too dark paws so I made them a bit lighter. The shape of paws might get a little improvement later, but I'm happy enough with them for now.

I made first of the three heroes I was promising, Ali Baba, who isn't that special by himself, but will get a free bandit each turn and can summon three bandits per turn (until I find that over or underpowered anyway). Obviously I made his bandit minions too. Bandits are light infantry with two weapons, stealth and good enough skill to use the two weapons without embarashing themselves too much.

Then there's new sprite for assassin as I wanted an assassin with waste survival and more arabic look. The basic sprite wasn't bad for al-Nadim, but I figured out I might make a proper assassin while I'm making sprites that look a bit like an assassin anyway :)

And as last I made Sinbad. He'll prevent bad events, have sailing and a little water magic.

EDIT: Apparently the image with all the sprites has grown too large for attaching as .png. I hate using losful formats so I'll start only attaching partial versions for now.

[elmokki]

0.20
- Ghul added as a summon
- Ifrit and marid now have scimitar and shield instead of the magic weapons
- Marid has glamour
- al-Nadim now gets it's own specific assassin
- Ali Baba added as hero
- Ali Baba got some bandits
- Sinbad added as hero
- Flag and banner created
- Alchemist actually has research bonus of 2 now.
- Mubarizun and Mubarizun commander are capital only
- Vizier, Grand Vizier and Alchemist prices were tuned slightly

First post is updated with pics of the flag (or actually pic of the banner, it contains the flag) and new version.

[Wrana]

For example, even in WWII, in many companies, the Russians at Leningrad issued 2 guns for every 5 soldiers. The ones that didn't have guns were expected to pick them up off the ones that did.
The 'troops' had no training - and were shot by their officers at the merest hint of disobedience.

Sorry, that's just fairy tales. My own grandfather fought as "People's Militia" from Moscow to Konigsberg. :) So I can say you that they had both weapons (my grandfather having semiauto rifle even though he probably shouldn't according to textbooks) and training enough for his particular division to be awarded a "Guards" status later. Actually, they were first placed in the field to build field fortifications with parallel training. Then they manned these fortifications. Of course, they were worse initially than guys who trained from before war started... but then, you should recall that Soviet Union had quite an effective institute of pre-service training, too (Germany had such, too, and Italy and France iirc). As for Leningrad it was a city with quite a number of plants both military and converted to military production as fighting got closer. They even developed a brand new SMG while under the siege! :) Of course, artillerists, drivers, scrives and such most often did not had rifles. :)

Returning to cavalry it always had a mobility advantage against infantry but there were periods when it was definitely weaker in straight-out combat. Fortunately, Middle Ages wasn't such a preiod and most Dominions nations live in this period. :) Still, your rationalization is quite weak. One reason I say so is that riders in Dominions 3 get Def bonus above and beyond their own training. This was done as far as I see to make cavalry surviable on battlefield which was not always so in Dom2. (At the same time they almost always have a Precision penalty) What this bonus may represent is a combination of greater tactical mobility and a chance that attack will strike horse or part of a harness instead of a rider.
Finally, you have probably mistaken a thread.

[elmokki]

There's the last hero I promised. I guess I might add some new hero later, but unless I get a really good idea for a hero, I guess this is it for heroes for now.

EDIT: Apparently you need to copystats for both insane and heretic, and I don't know of any unit who is both insane and heretic without side effects, so Alhazred will sadly have to do with being just insane.

[Wrana]

Sorry for being late - those were my hashishiines. ;)
I think they should be sacred, even if they won't probably be blessed often. :) However, it may be fixed through #onebattlespell...
Considering your troops I think that it's better to replace (or add to) militia with bedhouin raiders who come only for loot - a widely used practice which survived until Ottoman times. I made those average quality lightly armed infantry and horsemen which fight only one battle just like Ermor gladiators (using #copystats, of course). They may be used as either attack force in early game, or as chaff later.
(Also, we made many troops using improved robes for armor, adding also turban and turbaned helm). Another thing I did was including both light stealthy troops and corsairs. Light raiders fought on foot but used horses for faster movement - thus Move 3.
Another thing I consider important is particularly good horses providing faster movement - this also giving a better offense to light lancers you seem having some small problem with (these are Arabic horses, so heavy Ghulams do not have them)... ;) As for camels per se I just gave them a supply bonus. Camel troops can be made better if you consider that early Muslim armies used camels to transport their archers up to 4 per camel (I'd made just 2) and arrows for them. So, I propose to include a new "camel bow" (or somesuch) with unit description mentioning additional arrows and give camel archers 2 such attacks. Combined with animal awe, it would be quite good, I think. Another possible summon is cheetah.
As for commanders, I included also "Baghdad thieves" as spies. Another type you seem to forgot is khadi - judge (thus patrol bonus) and low-level priest. Higher level capital-only priest can be named Hoji.
Mystics are good and I also thought that alchemists should be also researchers. I made another mage's type - sorceress with Nature and Air magic, as these are often mentioned in tales. I thought about making some access for Buried in Sand for these nations as it's thematic, but am not sure.
As for genies I think you don't need to go for Marids as "water genies". Actually, the name came from something with sense like "infidel" (actually, various genie names were often used interchangebly, but that's another story). So I decided that while all EA genies are sacred, by MA some choose to follow the Prophet and other choose not to. The former became "faithful jihn" - sacred, including both troops and mage-commanders (male and female, with different magic), while the latter became "marids" - non-sacred, but their commanders are stronger mages (troops would be either absent or easier to summon).
And your ghuls are great!
I can add my opinion on genie races if you want to make a common work, but I must warn you that this is mostly based on Persian sources.
What certainly should be included is a spell summoning genies to build a palace!

Here are also Alhazred and Old Man of the Mountain if you want them (maybe magic should be slightly reduced; monsters Hassan summons are assassins and disciples - stealthy sacred raiders which are normally capital-only):

#newmonster 2867
#spr1 ""
#spr2 ""
#copystats 1071
#name "Hassan"
#descr "Old Man of the Mountain himself"
#hp 10
#size 2
#prot 0
#mor 11
#mr 16
#enc 3
#str 10
#att 11
#def 14
#prec 11
#mapmove 2
#ap 13
#gcost 300
#rcost 1
#armor "Turban"
#armor "Desert Garb"
#weapon Poison dagger
#magicskill 8 3 ---2?
#magicskill 7 2
#magicskill 4 2
#magicskill 5 2
#holy
#stealthy 20
#ambidextrous 4
#domsummon 2830
#domsummon20 2837
#wastesurvival
#mountainsurvival
#incunrest 10 ---?
#goodleader
#poormagicleader
#poorundeadleader
#startage 200
#maxage 160
#end


#newmonster 2868
#spr1 ""
#spr2 ""
#copystats 333
#name "Abd al al-Hazred"
#descr "That the man is mad, even himself wouldn't disagree. However, he has
an affinity to summoning and communing with genies of the most unusual kind.
This makes him somewhat useful to rulers and sorcerers, though most times his
answers are understood only by himself. He is said to going to write a book
which would summarize the wisdom he has gleaned, but whether or not it would
be actually useful is not known even by the wisest..."
#clearmagic
#hp 9
#size 2
#prot 0
#mor 13
#mr 19
#enc 3
#str 9
#att 8
#def 9
#prec 10
#mapmove 2
#ap 13
#gcost 0
#rcost 1
#armor "Turban"
#armor "Desert Garb"
#weapon fist
#weapon 367 --- Horror mark
#magicskill 4 3
#magicskill 7 3
#magicskill 1 2
#magicskill 5 2 ---?
#fear
#horrormark
#researchbonus 5
#douse 2
#magicbeing
#wastesurvival
#incunrest 8
#goodmagicleader
#okundeadleader
#end

[elmokki]

Sorry for being late - those were my hashishiines. ;)
I think they should be sacred, even if they won't probably be blessed often. :) However, it may be fixed through #onebattlespell...

Yeah. I gave a thought for it, but I ended up just having them as pretty much standard assassins (well, they have hauberk instead of cuirass, no leather hood, wasteland survival, and a second poison dagger instead of a short sword)

I might change my mind though, but I feel that this nation has quite a lot of interesting stuff already. If I end up making an LA version, it'll have a hashashin for sure though. I really want to make a version of this nation that can summon ghuls (and nasnas, if I end up making them, though I reckon literal half-humans will mostly be a novelty unit) without problem.

Considering your troops I think that it's better to replace (or add to) militia with bedhouin raiders who come only for loot - a widely used practice which survived until Ottoman times. I made those average quality lightly armed infantry and horsemen which fight only one battle just like Ermor gladiators (using #copystats, of course). They may be used as either attack force in early game, or as chaff later.[quote]
A pretty good idea actually. I don't really like the militia anyway and was thinking of scrapping it along with the lancer.

[quote](Also, we made many troops using improved robes for armor, adding also turban and turbaned helm). Another thing I did was including both light stealthy troops and corsairs. Light raiders fought on foot but used horses for faster movement - thus Move 3.

I think improved robes would go for EA version of this nation (if even there). I do like the look of light armor anyway :)

Another thing I consider important is particularly good horses providing faster movement - this also giving a better offense to light lancers you seem having some small problem with (these are Arabic horses, so heavy Ghulams do not have them)... ;)
I did think of faster horses along with the lower morale for all basic troops. I just came to conclusion that this isn't real life and faster horses isn't THE thing arabs are known for (though I do agree sheikhs who own horses is in top 10 of things that come to mind for me) nor is undisciplined armies. I still have the beduins morale 9 though, since they're supposed to be more undisciplined.

As for camels per se I just gave them a supply bonus. Camel troops can be made better if you consider that early Muslim armies used camels to transport their archers up to 4 per camel (I'd made just 2) and arrows for them. So, I propose to include a new "camel bow" (or somesuch) with unit description mentioning additional arrows and give camel archers 2 such attacks. Combined with animal awe, it would be quite good, I think. Another possible summon is cheetah.

Did they use more than one archer per camel in combat though? Atleast it'd look a bit silly with a dromedar.

Supply bonus is something to think about (though especially with the possible scrapping of lancer the heavier camel cavalry is actually quite a good unit, the archer less so.)

Cheetah is tempting as is rhino, but they'd go to nature and nature isn't a path I'm intending to give to (MA) al-Nadim.

As for commanders, I included also "Baghdad thieves" as spies. Another type you seem to forgot is khadi - judge (thus patrol bonus) and low-level priest. Higher level capital-only priest can be named Hoji.

I certainly won't be adding new priests without a really good reason (seeing that the nation already has 3, none of which is a mage with some priestly like with for example Marignon), but if you think khadi and hoji are better names for current mullah and imam (naturally with added patrol bonus) I'll look into it.

Mystics are good and I also thought that alchemists should be also researchers. I made another mage's type - sorceress with Nature and Air magic, as these are often mentioned in tales. I thought about making some access for Buried in Sand for these nations as it's thematic, but am not sure.
As tempted as I am to add new mages, I think I really can't increase the amount of diversity (F3, W3, S2, E2 are currently rather easy to get and A2 and E3 aren't that rare (6.25% for an alchemist) either). Sorceress would probably go to EA or possibly LA.

As for genies I think you don't need to go for Marids as "water genies". Actually, the name came from something with sense like "infidel" (actually, various genie names were often used interchangebly, but that's another story). So I decided that while all EA genies are sacred, by MA some choose to follow the Prophet and other choose not to. The former became "faithful jihn" - sacred, including both troops and mage-commanders (male and female, with different magic), while the latter became "marids" - non-sacred, but their commanders are stronger mages (troops would be either absent or easier to summon).

I can add my opinion on genie races if you want to make a common work, but I must warn you that this is mostly based on Persian sources.

The information of djinn in the internet seemed to really vary. Along with that Dungeons & Dragons crap - they invented a genie for each element.

I know the djinns aren't very exclusively of a particular element (even though many places do associate ifrit with fire and marid with water) and I'll sure give the more powerful versions of them some magic variance. I do quite like having them both as sacred and somewhat specialized even though having marids non-sacred isn't a bad idea. In any case we could just say that there's no prophet of Islam-equivalent in Dominions universe and keep the djinn as sacred beings of an earlier era :)

What certainly should be included is a spell summoning genies to build a palace!
A really good idea. I think I read genies lived in a city of brass (I have no clue how "true" that is, but sounds cool as hell), so a "Palace of Brass" would be a pretty cool spell.

[elmokki]

Now that I think of it, I might make Hashashin a multihero for MA.

And for the post to be less useless, here's an LA infantry parts of which I am very tempted to use for more armored mubarizun for MA, but I reckon the mubarizun are armored enough already - they're rather good heavy infantry. And as for a new MA unit, well, I think we got a relatively balanced and large enough selection of units.

[elmokki]

Still need to make one higher up version after these.

[elmokki]

Here are the last sprites I'll probably be making for (MA) al-Nadim in a while. I'll post an updated mod file soonish.

[elmokki]

0.80
- Feature completeish. All major stuff is done atleast.
- Ifrit Bey, Marid Bey, Marid Sultan and Ifrit Sultan added as summons
- Lancer removed

I need a lot of playtesters to test and and tell how I'll need to adjust unit stats and prices.

[Lurker_at_Threshold]

Pro's: great combat mages, strong sacreds, solid infantry, strong summons, fantastic magical diversity,

Con's: horrible province defense, old mages


I did some play testing on mighty. Once again I have to reiterate how powerful Dervishes are with a 9 water bless. They effectively have 4 attacks and a defensive rating of 19. This enables a small group of them to take out virtually any independent province with virtually no losses. I'd recommend removing 1-2 points of defense from them, simply to keep them from simultaneously being both a moving barrier and a murder machine.

Grand Visers are amazingly good combat mages. They can easily cast both high level fire and water evocations, while also giving them access to the rare and under utilized acid branch. Astral allows them to communion and further boost their casting levels. This easily puts them in the top 5 combat mages of the middle era. They can also easily forge rune smashers, and any level 3 visers can with a ring of sorcery and another generic booster forge a staff of elemental mastery. The fact that they are recruit able anywhere makes them even more powerful. Because of this, I'd recommend making them more expensive while dropping their automatic astral.

You need to fix the coding on the Marid portion of the summon tree, as summon marids produces marid sultans, summon marid beys produces an ifrit bey, and summon marid sultan produces a marid bey. I'd probably raise the summoning level of basic Jinns by 1 and of the Jinn sultans to 8 as they are very good mages/thugs and can easily reach the SC level. They are thankfully not quite in the seraph level, although they are still a very good summon.

[the Vanishag]

I'm looking forward to giving this mod a try - I'll post notes afterward, time permitting.

[mehrunes_dagon]

elmokki, will you please replace all backward slashes to forward slashes in .dm file, to let linux/macos playtesters join windoze p[laytesters in playtestin

ps Summary/briefin is jagged and partially unreadable on my computer due to lots of spaces you inserted

[elmokki]

I finally bothered to make an update. I forgot to fix the nation summary text, but it can wait.

The balance changes should be somewhat drastic.

With scimitars losing a point of defence pretty much all units lose one point of defence and along with their other nerf dervishes are losing a total of 3 defence. This might be a bit drastic, but playtesting will show if dervishes need their base defence 3 back or if the scimitars need their defence back.

Making Grand Viziers capital only fits very well thematically, as the nation should be somewhat centered on the Bejeweled City. From a game balance viewpoint this gave the normal viziers a need for buff, which +1F should do fine. I deemed the gold cost reduction of the mystics a must for anyone to actually recruit them. Still, at 90 gold they might be slightly too cheap, especially as they are not supposed to be communion slaves for the grand viziers. Alchemists should be more interesting now, as a player has to decide if he wants a powerful priest, a powerful battle mage or a powerful researcher/magic diversifier from his capital each turn.

But well, playtest and tell me what you think. My goal is to make al-Nadim balanced enough to be a viable multiplayer nation.

0.85
- Fixed the djinn summons.
- Made the djinn summons more expensive and slightly higher (4, 5 and 8 from 3, 4 and 7) on the conjuration tree.
- Made Grand Vizier capital only
- Gave +1 Fire to Vizier and +20 gold to price (now 140 gold)
- Made mystic cheaper (was 120 gold, now 90 gold)
- Lowered dervish base defence (13 -> 12)
- Moved a point of defence from scimitar to damage (from 5-1-1-2 to 6-1-0-2)
- Changed \ to / so penguin people can play too!


File itself is available at the first post.

In other news, if I bother to make a LA al-Nadim, it will most definately be less Ottoman Empire and more lovecraftian than I first thought.

[Jack_Trowell]

Good Mod, just a few things I notices :

- Camel archers seems overpriced : while it's good having access to composite bows, it does not justify a cost 5 times higher that a base archer.
Don't forget that the increased defense that they get from being a mounted unit will usually not be used at all, and their low protection make them easy targets for ennemy archers.

At least you didn't crippled them as archers by giving them poor precision like in vanilla. (too bad one of the few things dominions is bad at is simulating the importance of archer cavalry, if only there were a "fire and move back" order for those units ...)

I think that 30 gold, or maybe 25 would be more appropriate for such units, as even ith good mobility and above average precision, they're still ligh armored archers.

- in the descriotion of the nation and viziers, you mention air magic as somthing they are good at, while it should be water magic from what I can see.

[elmokki]

After quite a break a new version is up at the first post.

0.86
- Made slight changes to province defence. It's still weak, but I reckon that suits the nation quite well with the capital centric backstory and nomadic ways of life et cetera.
* Mullah replaced Commander as the <20 cost commander. It's mostly a backstory change, as mullahs are supposed to be not only a religious but also an adminstrative authority. Mullah will die to slight archer fire easier, but he's a level 1 priest.
* Gave 1 Al-Nadim Archer per province defence point <20 in addition to the 2 militias of old
* Made >20 province defence give a Vizier. The other choice would've been a Commander, but it felt a bit boring.
* Instead of 2 spear armed Al-Nadim Infantry per province defence, it's now 1 spear and 1 scimitar.
- Fixed the nation description to tell correct magic paths. It's still strangely wrapped though. Need to look into it again later.
- Made Camel Archers cheaper 50g -> 25g
- Gave both camel units "Camel Bite" instead of the 2 damage bite. There seemed to be no proper original bites and the old one didn't have #nostr. Currently it's 10/1/0/3 #nostr #bonus weapon, which basically is a bite of a lizard mount with -33% damage.

Now, the thing is, I was thinking of making an another mod, but that was mostly about my obsession to the coolness of bagpipes and kilts and claymores, and I thought I'd better finish Al-Nadim before I go make a mod about that. British Isles are pretty well covered already anyway ;)

I've got a few questions about the balancedness of this mod and I'd like to hear answers of someone who isn't me.

First of all, the province defence. It was really weak and is still very weak. Should it be stronger? I could scrap the militia unit as a whole and make <20 PD 1 archer 1 spear infantry per point and >20 1-1.5 scimitar infantry 0.5-1 beduin raider per point. Currently it's 2 miltia 1 archer <20 and 1 spear infantry 1 scimitar infantry >20. Personally I like the idea of it being weak, but is it too weak?

Secondly, the commanders. Is there something that's lacking or something that should definately be removed? Of the non-priest or mage commanders I know absolutely none will almost ever be hired apart from assassin and beduin chieftain. All except Mubarizun Commander and Assassin are pretty much essential to the theme of the nation though. I don't feel like they're worthless of existing in the mod. Assassin has it's niche and isn't really something that is making the nation too powerful, so I believe it has earned it's right to exist too. Mubarizun commander on the other hand is capital only and will have to be such, which is also why it'll be never recruited.

Mages and priests are always a huge problem. Are the mages and priests too expensive or too cheap? Is there too much magic diversity? I personally am unsure about Mystic - 1S1H stealthy (+25 once I fix it) spy at 90g. It feels a bit cheap compared to 1S stealthy LA Ulm Illuminated one at 70g, but I doubt it'd really be hired much if it was considerably more expensive. Magic diversity bugs me too. While I'm pretty happy with only Mystics (1S1H) and Viziers (2F1W and 110% FWES) being available outside the capital and Grand Vizier (2F2W1S 110% FWES) being available in capital, capital only Alchemist (1E 210% FAES) bothers me a bit. It gives you a somewhat realible access to 3E, 2A and 2W. I don't really know if that's too much. One thing which I'm thinking is removing the guaranteed 1E from the Alchemist, but it'll still leave Al-Nadim with quite decent access to all elemental magic.

I'm quite happy with the non-commander units. Everything has it's niche atleast thematically if not game technically. Mubarizuns are a kick-*** but capital only heavy infantry. I'm tempted to tone them down slightly (attack and defence 13 to 12), but in general they feel pretty fine as long as they are capital only. I don't feel like there's anything I should definately remove except maybe militia, nor that there's anything I should definately add. I still do have the graphics for a heavier lance armed cavalry for Al-Nadim (supplied with the mod and defined in the mod by the way), but I think it's cooler of the camels fill the cavalry slot. In general I find the non-sacred troops solid but nothing really spectacular. Camel Cavalry price might need tuning though. It doesn't feel like it's a very strong unit.

Even after a nerf Dervish still makes me wonder. It's recruitable everywhere and with a bless a swarm of them can be really devastating. On the other hand they'll drop like flies to any missile troops or anything that can actually outnumber them enough to punch through their defence even after the massive losses they're likely to take. They will definately stay as recruit everywhere, but do they need a cost increase or nerf?

Also, in general, is Al-Nadim missing something or is something wrong? I do want to make this nation balanced and interesting. I personally like the heroes very much.

I do know Al-Nadim only has the skeleton supply of pretender chassises available. How do I add more of the existing ones to the list? Atleast some of the fire orientated pretenders need to be there.

[Wrana]

[/QUOTE]
Did they use more than one archer per camel in combat though? Atleast it'd look a bit silly with a dromedar.
Supply bonus is something to think about (though especially with the possible scrapping of lancer the heavier camel cavalry is actually quite a good unit, the archer less so.)
[/QUOTE]

Again sorry for long time before answering, but still: in combat, they mostly shoot dismounted (I think about action picture as including 1 archer still monuted and the other dismounted standing beside). But: actually in later period Iran and India they used double shooters from camel-back: armed with special "camel-guns"! (mentioned in Osprey's "War Elephants")! IIUC, these were something more like petronelles or "hook arquebuse", but still... These soldiers sat in a special big basket on the animal's back.
I'll probably add something more later - possibly even picture! ;)

[Wrana]

I'd definitely remove militia as such. While Middle East states often levied common citizens as defensive troops, they were not completely untrained and often got some moderate to good equipment - I'd say something more like Bogarus lesser troops than common militia. I'd still think raiders would be more thematic.
As for other comments I'll try to test it in a few days,
Keep up the good work! ;)

[elmokki]

I personally think the gladiator like raiders would suit a lot better to an EA version of this nation which would probably be filled with stealthy cavalry and recruitable djinns. Sadly if I ever want to make the same loosely arabic theme for an another era, it'll most definately be LA.

I was thinking of a loosely Ottoman empire based highly bureucratic one where magic is highly institutionalized and an underground Abdul Alhazred cult with something like fire/death/blood/astral-mages (probably really low level and/or random paths though) along with the official state sanctioned fire/water scholarly ones. Fire because I want to give some era a possibility to actually summon ghul (edit: actually an ifrit bey with a death random can do it) and the idea of corrupted/dead/whatever djinns sounds kind of cool too. If djinns are beings of smokeless fire, they could be beings of smokeless banefire ;P

I think two riders on a dromedar would not work without making that basket, and I believe the camel riders just simply are cooler this way. I personally like my mods as streamlined and smooth as possible and somewhat detest having multiple units on the same sprite. Technically I could make camel archers summon a foot archer unit for every battle, but that kind of feels like a non-smooth hack solution too.

Also, for me historicity doesn't really matter much as Dominions isn't a very historical game. Personally I think al-Nadim is quite historical enough when compared to other human nations in the game. It feels arabic to me atleast and that's enough for me :)

EDIT: Oh yeah, regarding militia. I reckon I'll make a leather armored version of the spear infantry next time I can be arsed to. That should serve as a weak but not as terrible militia unit.

Also, I did just realize that the shortbow archers aren't there just for the theme. There's plenty of fire to access flaming arrows and that should warrant archers in some cases.

[elmokki]

Here's actually an older heavy infantry sprite I'd use for LA al-Nadim and I just wanted to do some drawing to see if I can make a decent looking janissary uniform. I don't really know what janissaries should be armed with in dom3 as firearms are out of question and just making them kickass crossbowmen feels a bit boring. Crossbowman with shield and scimitar seems a bit hard to draw (shield on back and seathed scimitar and crossbow?) but would sound like a sensible option. And yeah, I know, the janissary hat should not be a cone. I'll look into it later.

For theme I reckon secret cult would be too LA Ulmish, so maybe it's either nasty al-Nadim with something like 2D 1F 1W 100% FW 10% DFWS mages or a less nasty al-Nadim that has forsaken it's past and centered itself more on astrology with 2S 1F 1W 100% FW 10% FWSE mages. Those are the two choices of main mages I find the most interesting. There should probably be some other mage too though.

[Burnsaber]

Crossbowman with shield and scimitar seems a bit hard to draw.

Actually it's not. Just "copy-paste" the crossbow sprite from the LA Man "Tower Defender" unit to the units back and that's about it.

[elmokki]

0.87
- Militia replaced by Al-Nadim Light Infantry, which is basically a Militia with shield and normal infantry stats.
- Due to above, you'll only get 1 light infantry an 1 archer per PD point <20
- Some fixes to text all around
- The lowest level ifrit and marid summons cost a bit more gems


New version at first post.

[Wrana]

I see your point of view. :) Maybe more on that later.
For now - results of playtests:
0. A list of Arabian names is required. Actually, I had one made for my own attempt and you may use it (link was here somewhere, or just ask and I'll repost it soon).
1. Scouts & Spies require higher Stealth than +0. Currently, even independent Scouts have Stealth +10. And Spies with Stealth +0 are just unusable.
2. Dervishes die in droves. It's probably possible to prevent it with large masses and W9 bless, but even so it won't be so good a unit - though certainly able to cause much damage with F bless. I didn't test possible tweaks but currently they aren't so good.
3. Why so big Water? And almost no Air. Especially on Jinn it would be more thematic, I think.
4. Mullah is described as being judge, while having no such ability - or any other which would make him preferable to Mystic.
5. Vizier is described as mage of Air - and has no Air access.
6. Why Str 11 on beduin troops? I agree with Enc 3 for their cavalry - but this?
7. Marid Bei has no paths to summon lesser Marids. On the other hand, Ifrit Bei is very hard to summon without using Pretender.
8. Considering Pretenders - I don't think Fountains appropriate here. But Monolith and Divine Glyph would be. Some Middle-East-themed Pretenders also (Morning Star, Lords of Desert..., maybe even Shedu), as well as Virtue.
9. Considering Alhazred - I'd give him at least Summoning skill.

And yes, archers are quite usable - and would be even better with more access to Air! I don't see what do you mean by capital-only infantry, but they should probably get some weapon other than scimitar...

[elmokki]

I see your point of view. :) Maybe more on that later.
For now - results of playtests:
0. A list of Arabian names is required. Actually, I had one made for my own attempt and you may use it (link was here somewhere, or just ask and I'll repost it soon).
1. Scouts & Spies require higher Stealth than +0. Currently, even independent Scouts have Stealth +10. And Spies with Stealth +0 are just unusable.
2. Dervishes die in droves. It's probably possible to prevent it with large masses and W9 bless, but even so it won't be so good a unit - though certainly able to cause much damage with F bless. I didn't test possible tweaks but currently they aren't so good.
3. Why so big Water? And almost no Air. Especially on Jinn it would be more thematic, I think.
4. Mullah is described as being judge, while having no such ability - or any other which would make him preferable to Mystic.
5. Vizier is described as mage of Air - and has no Air access.
6. Why Str 11 on beduin troops? I agree with Enc 3 for their cavalry - but this?
7. Marid Bei has no paths to summon lesser Marids. On the other hand, Ifrit Bei is very hard to summon without using Pretender.
8. Considering Pretenders - I don't think Fountains appropriate here. But Monolith and Divine Glyph would be. Some Middle-East-themed Pretenders also (Morning Star, Lords of Desert..., maybe even Shedu), as well as Virtue.
9. Considering Alhazred - I'd give him at least Summoning skill.

And yes, archers are quite usable - and would be even better with more access to Air! I don't see what do you mean by capital-only infantry, but they should probably get some weapon other than scimitar...

0 - Isn't the amount of custom name lists limited? Oh well, I reckon I could make specific version with a name list at some point for people who don't want to mix a dozen mods. I do agree that arabic names would be far more thematic.
1 - It's a known issue. Fixed in 0.87, though scouts are +25 and should be +10.
2 - Yeah, I tested them a bit in single player. They aren't too awesome, but then again lesser ifrit and lesser marid are very usable with a water bless too, so I reckon they have their use if you have a water or fire bless as they're very easily massable with low resource cost and recruit everywhere. They're definately supposed to be flagellants on steroids, which is pretty much the role they are filling now.
3 - The water used to be air, which is why the descriptions were borked. I don't really know why I thought air was so good along the obvious fire. Water fits marids better, and it also has far more interesting synergy with fire. I do agree that the djinn themselves could have air, but I'm afraid about giving the nation more magic diversity. Air would give more power to dervishes with arrow fend and storm to shield them from arrows, but that's not a reason to add arrows. I've already once weakened dervishes for being too good anyway.
4 - He's considerably cheaper and doesn't need a temple to build. That said recruiting them is somewhat wasteful as you could spend your castle commander slot to recruiting a mystic or a vizier. That, however, is the issue with any national basic priest or commander in any nation. The description actually says "clerics and attourneys", so no judges there. I gave them 40 leadership and made them PD commanders to show of their somewhat adminstrative nature though. Imams, who actually have the judge thing in their description, might get patrol bonus, but the description is there primarily to tell that they have an adminstrative role along with their religious role.
5 - see answer to question 3
6 - Sauromatian light cavalry has str 11. That's where I took that from iirc. I reckon they could have str 10 as well.
7 - Yeah, I just thought about those today. I reckon I'll make marids pure water summons which would fix both but would also forget the smokeless fire-thingie.
8 - I don't think you can remove any of the current ones from the selection. The ones you suggested should definately be added there though.
9 - I don't think you can give it without #copystats, and I already need to #copystats for insanity, which I find more essential than summoning skill.

Some other weapon than scimitar for mubarizun would look good as currently they're scimitar infantry with different colors, but I really have no clue what weapon would be somewhat historical, balanced and look cool.

Air would surely make archers better, but then again it'd make the mages worse. Having both fire and air on one mage is rather useless, but having fire and water is good for acid spells ;)

[kennydicke]

elmokki

Some other weapon than scimitar for mubarizun would look good as currently they're scimitar infantry with different colors, but I really have no clue what weapon would be somewhat historical, balanced and look cool.

Arabian Weapons that might fit the bill:
Falchion
Acinaces (short sword)
Saif (scimitar with a normal curve)
Shamshir (scimitar with a dramatic curve)
Tabar Zin (short- or long-shafted, crescent-bladed battle-axe)
Sagaris (long-shafted battle-axe, pick-axe or hammer)

Cool fact: The Tabar Zin is sometimes carried as a ceremonial weapon by modern-day wandering dervishes.

I like this nation pretty well; not too strong, not too weak. Is the camel commander supposed to have 'bite' instead of 'camel bite'?

My bro liked it, too. He had a strange problem with the scimitars: they were all 7-1-1-2 and magic - must have been a conflict with another mod.

Also, your maps are my favorites.

[elmokki]

elmokki

Some other weapon than scimitar for mubarizun would look good as currently they're scimitar infantry with different colors, but I really have no clue what weapon would be somewhat historical, balanced and look cool.

Arabian Weapons that might fit the bill:
Falchion
Acinaces (short sword)
Saif (scimitar with a normal curve)
Shamshir (scimitar with a dramatic curve)
Tabar Zin (short- or long-shafted, crescent-bladed battle-axe)
Sagaris (long-shafted battle-axe, pick-axe or hammer)

Cool fact: The Tabar Zin is sometimes carried as a ceremonial weapon by modern-day wandering dervishes.

I like this nation pretty well; not too strong, not too weak. Is the camel commander supposed to have 'bite' instead of 'camel bite'?

My bro liked it, too. He had a strange problem with the scimitars: they were all 7-1-1-2 and magic - must have been a conflict with another mod.

Also, your maps are my favorites.

Thanks. Good to hear you like the nation (and my maps for that matter) and good to hear that you think it's not over or underpowered :)

Camel Commanders should definately have camel bite. I forgot to change it for them apparently.

The swords would look pretty much like the scimitar anyway and the axes seem to be a bit persian. Then again the dervishes are pretty persian too, so I'll have to think about it.

On other news, I just noticed the castles for most terrains are "Simple Hillfort" or something like that. What castles should I get to what terrains?

Plains is obviously fortified city. If I get no better input for others I'll make other terrains have generic 800 gold fortresses that have better adm than the 5 the "Simple Hillfort" has.

[kennydicke]

elmokki

Thanks. Good to hear you like the nation (and my maps for that matter) and good to hear that you think it's not over or underpowered
You're welcome, but I'm not a good judge.

The swords would look pretty much like the scimitar anyway and the axes seem to be a bit persian. Then again the dervishes are pretty persian too, so I'll have to think about it.
There's always the old standby: spears.

On other news, I just noticed the castles for most terrains are "Simple Hillfort" or something like that. What castles should I get to what terrains?
The 'simple hillforts' give them a more nomadic, Bedouin-type feel. I think 'ramparts', 'motte-and-baileys' and even 'simple fortresses' could give the same feel with a better admin value, if that's your goal.

[llamabeast]

Hey elmokki! I was just wondering - are you still maintaining this mod? I had another look at it and it is LOVELY, but also I found a few bugs. The most noticeable one was that the Viziers had fire and air magic, where they're described as having fire and water magic. Is this deliberate? I have a few other comments as well if you're still interested in updating it.

[attackdrone]

I noticed a few minor issues with what is quickly becoming one of my favorite mod nations.

1- Marid/Ifrit Beys and Sultans are not magic leaders. Perhaps the Beys should gain the #okmagicleader tag, and the Sultans the #goodmagicleader or #expertmagicleader tag.

2- None of the Marid/Ifrit Beys or Sultans are priests. Making the Beys a level 1-2 priest and the Sultans a level 2-3 priest would open up some middle-late game strategies that synergise well with the early game. As it is I need to put flying boots on a pack of Viziers (due to #1) and an Imam (due to #2) to link up with my Marid Sultans and Ifrits.

I went ahead and implemented your suggested changes for fort creation and Marids summoned using water only (so a Marid Bey/Sultan can summon helpers - it is much more thematic). I have them making Simple Fortress (1000 gold, 20 adm, 4 turns) by default, with a Forest Fortress (1000 gold, 15 adm, 4 turns) in the forest, a Simple Hillfort (800 gold, 5 adm, 3 turns) in the mountains, and a Swamp Fort (800 gold, 0 adm, 3 turns) in the swamp. This seems to balance well in my test games. They don't need a lot of administration for the triple bless strategy I went with.

...

On another note, Water-9, Fire-9, Astral-9 Dervishes are pretty fantastic! The dual scimitars pack a punch. The price/resource point seems about right, on par with Vanheim Skinshifters and Mictlan Jaguar Warriors. Of course, Dervishes die more often (so use Arrow Catcher shield-infantry)!

[elmokki]

Hey elmokki! I was just wondering - are you still maintaining this mod? I had another look at it and it is LOVELY, but also I found a few bugs. The most noticeable one was that the Viziers had fire and air magic, where they're described as having fire and water magic. Is this deliberate? I have a few other comments as well if you're still interested in updating it.

I haven't been playing Dominions 3 much in the last four months or so, and I can't really say I'm actively maintaning the mod. Anyone willing is free to pick it up for sure. Though I expect anyone who picks it up to keep the unit selection and stats in similiar enough so that it still is al-Nadim - new mods need new names ;)

But yeah, I'll probably get interested enough to update the mod now that I started a MP game again anyway.

[elmokki]

I noticed a few minor issues with what is quickly becoming one of my favorite mod nations.

1- Marid/Ifrit Beys and Sultans are not magic leaders. Perhaps the Beys should gain the #okmagicleader tag, and the Sultans the #goodmagicleader or #expertmagicleader tag.

That's definately a bug. Being magic beings who are leaders to lesser magic beings they definately should be better leaders.

2- None of the Marid/Ifrit Beys or Sultans are priests. Making the Beys a level 1-2 priest and the Sultans a level 2-3 priest would open up some middle-late game strategies that synergise well with the early game. As it is I need to put flying boots on a pack of Viziers (due to #1) and an Imam (due to #2) to link up with my Marid Sultans and Ifrits.

There's game balance to consider too and I really don't have much clue about that - though it isn't like getting one flying imam should be that huge problem anyway so it shouldn't matter much. In terms of plausibility I reckon that in the general theme of al-Nadim it'd make sense that the djinni are devout followers of the new god and could well have some priestly powers.

Besides, in a more djinni orientated EA version atleast the marids would definately have priestly powers.

I went ahead and implemented your suggested changes for fort creation and Marids summoned using water only (so a Marid Bey/Sultan can summon helpers - it is much more thematic). I have them making Simple Fortress (1000 gold, 20 adm, 4 turns) by default, with a Forest Fortress (1000 gold, 15 adm, 4 turns) in the forest, a Simple Hillfort (800 gold, 5 adm, 3 turns) in the mountains, and a Swamp Fort (800 gold, 0 adm, 3 turns) in the swamp. This seems to balance well in my test games. They don't need a lot of administration for the triple bless strategy I went with.

By the looks of it there's a version I released that I didn't bother to release on these forums. It's available at http://nikita.tnnet.fi/~elmokki/alnadim090.zip and the patch notes are as follows:

0.87 -> 0.9 changelog
- Scout stealth nerfed to the usual +10
- Camel Commander has finally stopped biting the enemies himself and now lets his camel do that.
- Beduin Horse Archer lost his buckler.
- Ghul are sacred in both forms. They still are technically djinn, even if tainted and evil and whatever.
- Ghul gets stealth +10.
- Highest tier summons removed.
- Marids are now just "djinn" while ifrits are special, stronger djinn. Due to that marids now have fire resistance instead of cold resistance and slightly worse stats.
- Djinn Bey (old marid bey) now has F2A2S1 with 110% FAES (same as grand vizier)
- Ifrit Bey now has with 2F1A1D 110% FADE
- Djinns are summonable at research levels 4 and 5 and ifrits at 5 and 6. Gem costs are slightly adjusted too.
- Viziers and Grand Viziers swap their W to A and their E random is changed to W random as I happen to love acid spells.
- Start fort changed to Great City, as it does suit better.
- Built forts are:
-> Fortified city for farm, plains and waste
-> Mountain Fortress for mountains
-> Forest Fortress for forests
-> Swamp Fort for swamps


Now, I seriously can't understand the reasoning for the magic path changes and I would now reconsider the removal of the most powerful summons, so I'll probably have to make a 0.91 that fixes that soon.

Regarding the fort changes, I don't remember the fort stats for those, but I believe that they are apart from Swamp Fort relatively big forts. I think it'd suit to make them smaller, more like what you suggested.

...

On another note, Water-9, Fire-9, Astral-9 Dervishes are pretty fantastic! The dual scimitars pack a punch. The price/resource point seems about right, on par with Vanheim Skinshifters and Mictlan Jaguar Warriors. Of course, Dervishes die more often (so use Arrow Catcher shield-infantry)!

Sounds like they are filling the exact role they are supposed to be filling. I just hope that they aren't too powerful in comparison to the alternatives since what I wanted was to have a sacred that is atleast somewhat viable with a bless BUT that isn't so overpowering that the only competitive way to play the nation is to go for a bless. Al-Nadim just has a good pile of other tools too.

Besides I still think the camels look very damn cool and should have some use :D

Also, I'm tempted to add some sort of a mounted beduin magician that has enough magic to be an useful addition to a stealthy beduin raiding party.

[elmokki]

Instead of studying I actually updated the mod: http://nikita.tnnet.fi/~elmokki/alnadim091.zip

I'd really like some input on things.

First of all, the sacred unit should either be niche or useful but not dominating all other strategies. I do believe it's either one of those (they may kill a lot, but they also drop like flies), but am I correct in that regard?

Secondly, are the beduins useful? What should be done if they're not useful enough as stealthy raider cavalry?

Thirdly, is Mystic an useful unit? If it isn't, would it be as a possibly mounted (doesn't matter much though since inside enemy territory it's one province per turn anyway) mage with 1H1S1F 110% FS instead of the current 1H1S? That might solve some problems if beduins aren't viable too. At 90 gold mystics probably are cheap enough to be used as communion slaves for Grand Viziers though - which is a thing I'm not really sure what I should think of.

And lastly, should the camels be buffed? I really would like to see them in action if I ever stumble into a multiplayer game with al-Nadim.

Forts are still something to update later.

[elmokki]

There'll be a patch to fix summon path requirements tomorrow.

[llamabeast]

I had a chance to have a nice long play with the nation this evening, so I have a number of comments.

Firstly, once again I really like this nation, it's one of my favourites. You've given it a really nice feel.

I think the overall power level is slightly below average. Everything is okay but you have no standout strong points. With that in mind I think you can afford buffs where you fancy them.

To start with your first question, I think dervishes are great. I actually think they are slightly overpriced - 20 gold might be better. As you say they are potentially powerful but will always be niche, as you simply can't stop them from dying like flies. E9 doesn't help at all, and S9 will help but they'll still be short-lived.

I think the beduins are greatly overpriced. For comparison, Sauromatian light cavalry cost around 20 gold (in CBM; vanilla light cavalry are horribly overpriced). I'd suggest 20 gold would be a good price point for the beduins as well (perhaps 18 for the archer one?). Incidentally why do they have 12 hit points?

The camels similarly are very overpriced. I'd suggest maybe 25 gold for the heavily armoured one and 20 for the archer. I'd love to think of some special ability to make them stand out but it's hard to think of one. I think the animal awe and "long" camel bite are good moves, as is putting elite troops on their backs. I think with a reduced price they would see usage.

Also with the camels, I think they would look better if you added a little shadowing on the camelskin under the legs, to make them look more like the legs are actually on the camel's back rather than superimposed on it.

I also reckon the Mubarizun is a tad expensive. Maybe 15 gold?

I like all the mages. The Mystic is definitely useful - please leave him in! A cheap communion slave alongside all your astral-bearing Viziers is a fun unit. Also the fact that he's sacred allows you to put together big holy communions to get H3 or H4 casters in battle if you're facing lots of undead.

An additional beduin mage would be cool. Leave the mystic in, but the beduin mage you suggest sounds fun.

I tried out almost all the djinns (couldn't summon the high level fire one due to lack of suitable mages). I think you've got them about right. The little ones are powerful but easily killed (although it bugs me slightly that the ifrit are more powerful in pretty much every way than the marids - fire shield, better stats etc). The Beys are nice and this time there is a clear differentiation with the Marid being the "magicky" one, and the Ifrit being the "fighty" one. I didn't like the Sultan so much - I don't think the sprite is quite up to the standards of the rest of the mod, and it bothered me slightly that the Sultan had less magic overall than the Bey, but was suddenly very good at astral. I also tried the Ghul - seems cool. She will give the nation death access but I think that's fine, it will only be on a relatively small scale and it takes some effort to get there. Plus she allows Skulls of Fire to give you a handy fire booster. Anyway overall I think the djinns are good.

[elmokki]

New version up at the first post.

0.93 (18.3.2011)
- Beduin cavalry tweaked to be more in line with Sauromatia light cavalry
--> Beduin troops hp, att and def reduced 12 -> 11
--> Beduin Raider gold cost 40 -> 20
--> Beduin Mounted Archer gold cost 40 -> 18
- Mubarizun gold cost 18 -> 15
- Mubarizun commander hp 13 -> 16 to be more in line with for example Marverni Boar Lords.
- Dervish gold cost 25 -> 20
- Camel unit prices lowered to be more in line with similiar powered cavalry units
--> Camel Cavalry price 50 -> 25
--> Camel Archer price 25 -> 20
- Camel sprites got a very subtle tweak
- (lesser) Marid stats brought to be more in line with (lesser) Ifrit stats.
- Marids of all levels get glamour again. There's a risk this is overpowered, but we'll see.
- Alchemits research bonus increased 2 -> 3
- New unit: Beduin Sorcerer
--> Mounted mage with 1F1E and 110% FEW, stealthy and 140g cost

[attackdrone]

--> Beduin Raider gold cost 40 -> 20
--> Beduin Mounted Archer gold cost 40 -> 18
--> Camel Cavalry price 50 -> 25
--> Camel Archer price 25 -> 20


These are very good changes. In test games I never built a single of any of these units due to the high gold prices combined with lack of a lance. I'll start a new non-bless game with a rainbow pretender and report back on how that goes.

Currently my test game with 0.91/0.92 using an Astral 9 / Water 9 / Fire 9 blessing is going quite well. The addition of Priest 2 to the Sultans makes a late game bless strategy effective. A crystal shield on a Sultan allows for a sacred flying divine bless force of Maridi or Ifriti. The summons make for spectacular siege troops due to the flying. Going misfortune combined with the fairly terrible provincial defense means that patrol forces (Dervishes based out of forts) are used instead of buying PD.

In my next game I shall likely go with better scales and a rainbow pretender with a minor blessing (Fire 4 / Water 4 perhaps, which should help with summons).

[elmokki]

I'm tempted to give Beduin Raiders a lance. It's doubtful that it'd make them too powerful anyway.

[llamabeast]

I like the changes! :D

Would giving raiders a lance be thematic? It's not something I'd visualise them using.

It's possible that the cost reductions may still have been too conservative (i.e. the cavalry should be even cheaper), but some more playtesting is needed really I think.

[elmokki]

Would giving raiders a lance be thematic? It's not something I'd visualise them using.

Historically it's probably more or less thematic to give them atleast light lance, but for the mod? I don't know. The biggest issue isn't really if they have a lance or not but that if they have a lance they need to have it in the model too instead of the scimitar.

[llamabeast]

Hey elmokki,

I don't know whether you've been following the development of Sombre's Mod Catalogue. It's a sticky on the other forum. Anyway he's been putting together a list of mods which are all mutually compatible. Using a big spreadsheet of ID numbers, we're trying to get a large number of the best mods to be compatible with each other (and CBM) so they can be used without worrying. It will also be very helpful for me as I have plans to release a big mod compilation with many of the best nation mods in it.

Anyway, since I really like this mod I'd like it to be added to the list of compatible nations, so I just went through it and moved a couple of ID numbers around (as it happened there wasn't much to do, just weapons and site numbers). I decided I might as well do a proofreading run too, so I did that - for the most part there were just a very small number of typos, although some of the descriptions for the djinn summons had got slightly jumbled.

Anyway it would be really great if you were happy to use the attached mod as the basis of future versions of the mod, so we can more easily keep everything compatible.

On the subject of the mod contents itself, I noticed that djinni have quite hefty upkeep costs. This is a bit unusual for summons (I think only trolls have upkeep in vanilla dominions) - I wonder if it would make sense to either remove them or, if you like them, mention them in the djinni descriptions (greedy for gold!).

[elmokki]

Hey elmokki,

I don't know whether you've been following the development of Sombre's Mod Catalogue. It's a sticky on the other forum. Anyway he's been putting together a list of mods which are all mutually compatible. Using a big spreadsheet of ID numbers, we're trying to get a large number of the best mods to be compatible with each other (and CBM) so they can be used without worrying. It will also be very helpful for me as I have plans to release a big mod compilation with many of the best nation mods in it.

Anyway, since I really like this mod I'd like it to be added to the list of compatible nations, so I just went through it and moved a couple of ID numbers around (as it happened there wasn't much to do, just weapons and site numbers). I decided I might as well do a proofreading run too, so I did that - for the most part there were just a very small number of typos, although some of the descriptions for the djinn summons had got slightly jumbled.

Anyway it would be really great if you were happy to use the attached mod as the basis of future versions of the mod, so we can more easily keep everything compatible.

It's work I've been avoiding (even though I think I remember the mod being mostly in correct ranges last I checked) and I'll definately include it. Thank you.

On the subject of the mod contents itself, I noticed that djinni have quite hefty upkeep costs. This is a bit unusual for summons (I think only trolls have upkeep in vanilla dominions) - I wonder if it would make sense to either remove them or, if you like them, mention them in the djinni descriptions (greedy for gold!).

Those are rough drafts for earlier age costs for the units, but I do guess they might as well be removed as if I happen to make EA al-Nadim it'll be a different .dm file anyway.

[llamabeast]

Hey elmokki,

I'm planning to release the Expanded Nations Packs mod compendiums in a few days' time, and I'd like to include this mod if I may. Is that okay, and are there any imminent changes that you'd like me to wait for?

Seems to me the mod's pretty polished and good to go. The only things I can think of are the gcosts for the djinni, and also I just noticed a comment earlier in the thread about a nametype for the nation. I haven't even checked whether you've included one (it's tricky at work), but since the latest patch there are quite a few spare nametypes to work with if you'd like to.

[elmokki]

Hey elmokki,

I'm planning to release the Expanded Nations Packs mod compendiums in a few days' time, and I'd like to include this mod if I may. Is that okay, and are there any imminent changes that you'd like me to wait for?

Seems to me the mod's pretty polished and good to go. The only things I can think of are the gcosts for the djinni, and also I just noticed a comment earlier in the thread about a nametype for the nation. I haven't even checked whether you've included one (it's tricky at work), but since the latest patch there are quite a few spare nametypes to work with if you'd like to.

All content I've released for Dominions may be used for any (non-commercial but I doubt that'll ever be a problem) purpose as long as my name is mentioned and I'm informed of it (atleast if it's something bigger), so sure, go ahead.

There wasn't a nametype as I thought nametypes were still limited to just 127 and 128 and I thought it wasn't THAT essential to make one. Oh well, apparently I was wrong and now I made a nametype.

1.00 (24.3.2011)
- Nametype of 79 names implemented (id 151)
- Llamabeast's id changes and spelling corrections implemented
- All djinni have #gcost 0 to remove upkeep
- Viziers and Grand Viziers are slightly younger. Viziers should now never be old when you recruit them and Grand Viziers should still be old, but a bit less so and with luck they might be barely below old age if they don't get a fire random.
- Beduin Sorcerer pathes changed to 1S and 110% FSE, 100% FE

I hope that makes stealth communions viable without turning the tactic too powerful.

[elmokki]

New version with minor changes up at the first post.