Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI. Game Over. Team ACGHHS wins!

[Septimius Severus]

If there are any slots still open (even alternate ones) i would like to candidate myself as noob....
Welcome Makinus, yes we've two alternate slots still available. I'm putting you on The Blessed One's team unless you have a preference otherwise. Be sure to check out and register on our team forums so you can stay up to date with what your team is up to. The forums are here: http://noobsvets.silverforum.net

[Septimius Severus]

Chris, I agree with Drp, I think we should at least play nice and not try to stomp the AI caps or starts for 5 turns. No biggie really. I agree it wasn't mentioned in my opening post but I think it makes good sense. But lets hear from Algae and Agema on the subject. The omission didn't mean it was debarred or that is was allowed. For instance, I didn't mention diplomacy between teams, should this be taken that is not allowed? No.

Also Chris, I have recieved your PM's and I have stated previously that members of the Deva's did jump the gun on the swap requests, before we had officially completed the votes on the method. I never said that swaps would not be allowed, but that they would need to take place via the available unassigned pool. I allowed an interteam swap due to someone on my team wanting Caelum and Drp wanting Pangaea and in this I broke my own rule. If the other team captains and the consensus of players agree with you then I can force both my team and the Deva's back to preswap method 2 status and officially announce swaps again.

I am not going to go into anything more complicated other than first come, first serve for swaps, I've no more time available.

Failing this, I've no problem with re-opening swaps, inter-team or from the unassigned pool, I just assumed that since people had posted who was playing who, that you guys were finished with swapping nations.

Yes, I am aware the Deva's will be a powerhouse of muscle with Neifel, Hinnom, and Pangaea, with experience and talent to boot, though they may be weak magically, but every team captain had first choice priviledges could have taken Hinnom and could have ranked Hinnom higher as well. The fact they didn't is not anyone's fault. In the future, I implore every captain to use their first choice priviledge wisely. Alternates who will have second choice will also figure prominently. My goal is to make as many players as happy as possible, but we can't do everything.

Edit: Be aware that if the unassigned pool changes significantly, I will have to tell Gandalf to wait, and since I've already sent word, lets not make this necessary if we can.

[AlgaeNymph]

Design your pretenders, discuss your strategies while I contact Gandalf with instructions.To the forums (http://noobsvets.silverforum.net/viewforum.php?f=4), Blessed Ones.

[Maerlande]

Our captain hasn't chimed in, but I'd like to voice an opinion. I think Gandalf will make the AI garrisons tough enough to be a challenge and the 5 turn wait isn't needed. Seems to me, noobish though I am, that taking a risky jump to an AI fort might pay off and might not. You could be expanding instead. I'm all for letting those who want to try it do it.

[Hoplosternum]

I don't like the 5 turn rule. It made sense in Noobs v Vets III as it stopped the obvious tactic of the noobs creating 12 flying pretenders and having 2 shots per vet at knocking out each one in the first couple of turns. The noobs only needed to close down two or three capitals and even if they lost most of their pretenders the vets would have been finished before summer of the first year arrived.

That can't happen here. Nor does knocking down one opponent at great cost and risk to yourself win you the game as the other two teams can make expand properly while that is going on. Consider that the flying pretender can't breach the walls he just closes down the capital at high risk to himself. Likewise a very early rush by elites/sacreds. In this game you have team mates to rescue you. And everyone has the option of an awake pretender to counter, it's just some nations will choose not to take it.

The rule would only help the nations that have relatively slow starts but still want a nice bless (or scales) so no awake SC. Like Fomoria ;) Niefel and Hinnom. Why on earth are we protecting these nations which are widely considered the best in the age? They are not going to give the rest of us a nice 5 turn break once they have tooled up SCs charging around the map are they?

[chrispedersen]

Hey Sept

As a separate question, you said you were going to determine the pick order randomly (for the nation assignments)

I've been trying to make heads or tails of it. Can you say what the randomly determined pick orders were? Ie., who picked first, second, third, fourth?

[Septimius Severus]

Hey Sept

As a separate question, you said you were going to determine the pick order randomly (for the nation assignments)

I've been trying to make heads or tails of it. Can you say what the randomly determined pick orders were? Ie., who picked first, second, third, fourth?

The second of the two methods I employed used a random pick order: I rolled the 'die' as it were to determine who would be team A, B, team C, team D. The Mysterios ended up as team D, the Deva's team C, the Blessed Ones team A, and Noobheim team B. I then applied both ordering methods suggested by yourself and grudge (ABCDDC) etc. using those team assignments. I posted this back in page 20 but here is the link again:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=713061&postcount=197

This thread is getting so huge, we need to use pointers to everything. :)

I've got 3 votes against any 5 turn rule, and 2 votes for it. Absent any further opinions the 5 turn rule will be dropped.

Chris, if you'd like Pangaea or Caelum for your team, there are two ways to get them now, convince the Deva's or the Mysterios to give them up via swap or we revert back to my orginal method 2 assignments and I restart swaps OFFICIALLY like my original intent. But so far everyone else is amazingly quiet on this issue.

[chrispedersen]

Hey Sept

As a separate question, you said you were going to determine the pick order randomly (for the nation assignments)

I've been trying to make heads or tails of it. Can you say what the randomly determined pick orders were? Ie., who picked first, second, third, fourth?

The second of the two methods I employed used a random pick order: I rolled the 'die' as it were to determine who would be team A, B, team C, team D. The Mysterios ended up as team D, the Deva's team C, the Blessed Ones team A, and Noobheim team B. I then applied both ordering methods suggested by yourself and grudge (ABCDDC) etc. using those team assignments. I posted this back in page 20 but here is the link again:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=713061&postcount=197

This thread is getting so huge, we need to use pointers to everything. :)

I've got 3 votes against any 5 turn rule, and 2 votes for it. Absent any further opinions the 5 turn rule will be dropped.

Chris, if you'd like Pangaea or Caelum for your team, there are two ways to get them now, convince the Deva's or the Mysterios to give them up via swap or we revert back to my orginal method 2 assignments and I restart swaps OFFICIALLY like my original intent. But so far everyone else is amazingly quiet on this issue.


Thanks for the posting the method Sept. Sorry if I missed it before!

Regarding Pangaea/Caelum etc: I would feel somewhat bad about making this fuss to choose pangaea for my team (not enought not to do it, tho.)

My preferences (in order) would be:
1. stick to the original rules (19 pages of discussion thereof) which made no mention of swapping nations. Yet did make much mention of AI nations getting strong races.

2. Stick to your original intent of allowing captains to voice.

Look no offense to Dr.P and his team. I don't fault them a bit for jumping at the chance to get Pangaea. However, I do question how good those rules are for the game.

In regular games, it is common for people to gang up on Hinnom - and fail. In this team game - having 4 teammates - that tactic will be nigh impossible.

Adding pangaea's gorgon pretender to the mix is just adding insult to injury.

[Septimius Severus]

Hey Sept

As a separate question, you said you were going to determine the pick order randomly (for the nation assignments)

I've been trying to make heads or tails of it. Can you say what the randomly determined pick orders were? Ie., who picked first, second, third, fourth?

The second of the two methods I employed used a random pick order: I rolled the 'die' as it were to determine who would be team A, B, team C, team D. The Mysterios ended up as team D, the Deva's team C, the Blessed Ones team A, and Noobheim team B. I then applied both ordering methods suggested by yourself and grudge (ABCDDC) etc. using those team assignments. I posted this back in page 20 but here is the link again:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=713061&postcount=197

This thread is getting so huge, we need to use pointers to everything. :)

I've got 3 votes against any 5 turn rule, and 2 votes for it. Absent any further opinions the 5 turn rule will be dropped.

Chris, if you'd like Pangaea or Caelum for your team, there are two ways to get them now, convince the Deva's or the Mysterios to give them up via swap or we revert back to my orginal method 2 assignments and I restart swaps OFFICIALLY like my original intent. But so far everyone else is amazingly quiet on this issue.


Thanks for the posting the method Sept. Sorry if I missed it before!

Regarding Pangaea/Caelum etc: I would feel somewhat bad about making this fuss to choose pangaea for my team (not enought not to do it, tho.)

My preferences (in order) would be:
1. stick to the original rules (19 pages of discussion thereof) which made no mention of swapping nations. Yet did make much mention of AI nations getting strong races.

2. Stick to your original intent of allowing captains to voice.

Look no offense to Dr.P and his team. I don't fault them a bit for jumping at the chance to get Pangaea. However, I do question how good those rules are for the game.

In regular games, it is common for people to gang up on Hinnom - and fail. In this team game - having 4 teammates - that tactic will be nigh impossible.

Adding pangaea's gorgon pretender to the mix is just adding insult to injury.

My dear Chris, because there is no mention of swaps after nation selection on the OP should not be construed as it not being allowed. I did mention it in a subsequent post on this thread. I cannot update everything on the main post all at once. You will also find on the OP that I did say that these rules "WERE NOT SET IN STONE" and were and are subject to change. Since you were not in my previous NvV games, you probably were not aware of my custom to allow swaps after the nation selection process. This is an attempt to satisfy everyone as best as possible. So I don't fault you.

Your right, I broke my rule about keeping order and only letting captains make decisions here (largely due to the fact that one team captain was unable to post for several days). But I will stick to this in the future.

If you want another nation either make your plea now or I restart the swaps. If not, let me not keep Gandalf waiting, he's got a lot of work to do.

[Agema]

My expectation is the AI should be sufficiently tough to make swamping their forts very early with an SC unfeasible. If that's the case, I see no reason to apply a 5-turn rule.

[Makinus]

I´m still waiting for my account validation in the game forum.... No hurry, but thats the reason that i dind´t post anything there yet....

[melnorjr]

I validated you this morning and set you to the blessed ones group - and just double checked it - you should be able to post.

[DrPraetorious]

On start locations - I assume we are using the setup on the left in the parent? Do we get to know which color we are before specifying starts? If not:

I would like Ulm on the more remote (from our player neighbors) of the two rear starts,
and Pangaea on the less remote of the two rear starts.

I would like Niefelheim in the front start close to Ulm, and Hinnom in the front start close to Pangaea.

[Septimius Severus]

Makinus, yes, your all set to go. Btw: We've got 1 more alternate slot still available on the Deva's powerhouse team.

Yep, DrP, from the few responses I got to the early voting on Option 1 or Option 2 starts, the majority seemed to favor the option 1 starts.

No, you will not have a choice of what color zone your in, I've asked Edi to handle the human team placements. He can place them without any bias (if need be I can also do it via a roll of the die).

Default placement is mentioned in the OP, the captain and intermediate players (the #1 and #2 players on each team's list), who are supposed to be the most experienced, go forward/center with the noobs rear/flank. This is due to the pressure on the center from all quarters and the powerful AI. I recommend you stick with it, but captains may alter this.

Captains may choose which two nations go forward and which two nations are rear/flank if not happy with default. The spacing between nations varies so you do not get to go into all of that. If you want a change from default PLEASE Do this via PM to me once we settle this swap business.

Thanks.

[pyg]

To give a pictorial example of what Dr. P. is talking about if we were the Blue starts we would want it to look like this.


Neifelheim Hinnom


Ulm Pangaea


Swapped across the vertical axis would be fine of course.

[Septimius Severus]

I know what he's talking about, however distances probably vary in the rear and front, though they should be pretty much the same. You may choose which two go foward, which two go rear. Nothing else. This needs to be done via PM by the captains ONCE we settle this swap business. Please listen to my instructions this time.

Thanks.

[DrPraetorious]

I can't specify that the two cold nations go on the same side? I don't care that much which side it is, even...

[Immaculate]

I tried to design a pretender and to do that i needed to download the BI mod right?

anyway, i put it in the mod folder (next to CBM) and when i went to try and load it, it wasn't available as one of the choices.

So:
1) will a pretender designed without it be 'cheating'?
2) why can't i see the mod?

[Septimius Severus]

I can't specify that the two cold nations go on the same side? I don't care that much which side it is, even...
Yes, if you want to do that you can in a PM to me, once we settle this swap business, which the captains should be voting on via PM now!

In your PM list them in the order you'd like them to appear (use the 1,2,3,4 format (left front, right front, left rear, right rear) it will be applied to whatever axis you wind up on. That's kinda how I was planning to do it by default anyway, reading each teams list on the OP and working down. If your top two nations (vet and intermediate) or bottom two nations (noobs) on the OP are cold/hot they'll be next to each other by default in the front or back respectively anyway.

[Septimius Severus]

I tried to design a pretender and to do that i needed to download the BI mod right?

anyway, i put it in the mod folder (next to CBM) and when i went to try and load it, it wasn't available as one of the choices.

So:
1) will a pretender designed without it be 'cheating'?
2) why can't i see the mod?

You should not be having any issues if you extract the .dm file and place it into your mods folder. Go to mod preferences and you should see it on the list of mods (I can see it on my system). Since the mod doesn't make any changes to pretenders that I know of, I doubt it matters whether you have the mod enabled when you create your pretender or not. You should check to make sure it is enabled though when/before you load up the first turn sent out.

Whether the game or server stores your mod preferences in the .2h file when you create a pretender or not, I don't recall. But I believe the server will use the mods I tell it to by default. So when you get that first turn file, it will warn you if you don't have BI enabled when you load the turn and shouldn't let you load the turn. Just to be on the safe side though, you might want to have it enabled before you create your pretender once you get it showing in the preferences that is.

Remember, not to set a password. Here's a link to the llamaserver FAQ for noobs and those of us who forget things from time to time:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=35160

[Septimius Severus]

Our final alternate slot has been filled.

The Deva's have a new edition to their team:

CuriousCat

The Mysterios have retained Executor in the role of ahem *cough* "Technical Advisor" *cough*, Algae, have you been able to grab one for your team yet?

[rdonj]

All mods need to be enabled when creating your pretender. When you've sent in your god and you get your turn file, the game will automatically enable whatever mods you need to play your game.

[Immaculate]

You should not be having any issues if you extract the .dm file and place it into your mods folder.

I thought it was a .rar file?
Is that like some version of zip?

Sorry, i'm bad at computers...

[rdonj]

Yes, a .rar is like a .zip file. You will need a program like Winrar to open a .rar file and unpackage the contents.

[Maerlande]

Are we stuck? I'd like to play this game. It seems to be stuck on the swap issue. Are we still moving forward?

[AlgaeNymph]

Not to worry, we're moving slowly, but inexorably forward. We were slowed down by needing a team captain but we got past that. We'll get past this.

[Septimius Severus]

The votes by team captains are in and it was 3 to 1 in favor of quickly restarting swaps and reverting to the method 2 defaults. Agema, has come up with a very nice method of handling swaps which I intend to incorporate into future games that insures that those teams who may not have fared so well in the ranked team list process have the first shots at any available swaps. I intend to do this quickly and I expect it will not take more than a single round (I'll update the main post when this is over).

Here are the method 2 defaults again plus the captains picks (this is now what each team has):

The Mysterios
Lanka
Fomoria
Kailasa
Yomi

Deva's Darlings
Neifelheim
Hinnom
Ulm
Caelum

The Blessed Ones
Vanheim
Helheim
Tir na nog
T'ien Chi'

Noobheim
Mictlan
Sauromatia
Arco
Ermor

Unassigned land nations (available via swap).

Abysia
Pangaea
Marverni
Agartha
C'tis

Agema's swap method gives priority in swaps to those teams who ended up with the least number of top picks in the ranked nation process. Therefore, team captains will now make their swaps via post here starting with the above available land nations in the following order:

Chris, DrP, Agema, and Algae.

Captains may opt to pass rather than swapping if they wish. Captains please do this quickly and help me out by including the updated unassigned list in your posts as you go. After these 4 posts I will ask if any of the captains wishes any more swaps, if not, then we are finished and I can give the go ahead to Gandalf.

Chris your up.

[Immaculate]

This stuff is so boring; when will we actually play?

[DrPraetorious]

@Immaculate - That's what she said.

I'm rather busy the next few days anyway, so:
If The Mysterios don't take Pangaea, we will, in exchange for Caelum.
If The Mysterios *do* take Pangaea, we pass.

Send me a PM when we've got our teams finalized?

[chrispedersen]

The votes by team captains are in and it was 3 to 1 in favor of quickly restarting swaps and reverting to the method 2 defaults. Agema, has come up with a very nice method of handling swaps which I intend to incorporate into future games that insures that those teams who may not have fared so well in the ranked team list process have the first shots at any available swaps. I intend to do this quickly and I expect it will not take more than a single round (I'll update the main post when this is over).

Here are the method 2 defaults again plus the captains picks (this is now what each team has):

The Mysterios
Lanka
Fomoria
Kailasa
Yomi

Deva's Darlings
Neifelheim
Hinnom
Ulm
Caelum

The Blessed Ones
Vanheim
Helheim
Tir na nog
T'ien Chi'

Noobheim
Mictlan
Sauromatia
Arco
Ermor

Unassigned land nations (available via swap).

Abysia
Pangaea
Marverni
Agartha
C'tis

Agema's swap method gives priority in swaps to those teams who ended up with the least number of top picks in the ranked nation process. Therefore, team captains will now make their swaps via post here starting with the above available land nations in the following order:

Chris, DrP, Agema, and Algae.

Captains may opt to pass rather than swapping if they wish. Captains please do this quickly and help me out by including the updated unassigned list in your posts as you go. After these 4 posts I will ask if any of the captains wishes any more swaps, if not, then we are finished and I can give the go ahead to Gandalf.

Chris your up.

We'll switch Ermor for Pangaea

[DrPraetorious]

On reflection, purely for reference in future games, I dislike this swap system. I'm a little displeased about having to redo pretender design etc, but Caelum is actually stronger than Pangaea (which is why I put it higher on the list originally,) especially for a configuration that already features *2* giant races. I only wanted to swap out because my teammate expressed a strong preference, and I want my teammates to be able to play to their strengths.

The way things stood before, there was (whatever some might have thought) no penalty in padding your list with desirable nations, except in so far as you might get them. If your first seven choices are picked before you pick your second choice, you get choice #8, same as you would've if you'd put your choice #8 as #2 on your list. So the correct thing to do is just to pick what you actually want and hope you get it.

By rewarding people with additional, post draft flexibility, you *encourage* gamesmanship by having people put nations which they don't want, but which will probably draft high, so that the nations they actually want are officially higher #s on their list. The ability to swap picks after the fact is actually quite valuable in a team game, since you can easily close flexibility holes that appear in your initial draft.

[Septimius Severus]

Chris has picked Pangaea and dropped Ermor, available unassigned:

Abysia
Ermor
Marverni
Agartha
C'tis

Let's go DrP, your up swap or pass?

[Septimius Severus]

On reflection, purely for reference in future games, I dislike this swap system. I'm a little displeased about having to redo pretender design etc, but Caelum is actually stronger than Pangaea (which is why I put it higher on the list originally,) especially for a configuration that already features *2* giant races. I only wanted to swap out because my teammate expressed a strong preference, and I want my teammates to be able to play to their strengths.

The way things stood before, there was (whatever some might have thought) no penalty in padding your list with desirable nations, except in so far as you might get them. If your first seven choices are picked before you pick your second choice, you get choice #8, same as you would've if you'd put your choice #8 as #2 on your list. So the correct thing to do is just to pick what you actually want and hope you get it.

By rewarding people with additional, post draft flexibility, you *encourage* gamesmanship by having people put nations which they don't want, but which will probably draft high, so that the nations they actually want are officially higher #s on their list. The ability to swap picks after the fact is actually quite valuable in a team game, since you can easily close flexibility holes that appear in your initial draft.

I'll take that it into consideration for future games. If anyone can come up with a complete solution that is not too complicated or time consuming and satisfies as many players as possible I'll consider using it in the next game instead of ranked list + swaps.

Right now please swap or pass so we can finish this.

Edit: oops didn't read all of your previous post, I take it then that you pass since Pan goes to chris?

[Septimius Severus]

Very well, the Deva's pass!

Agema, your up, then Algae. Available unassigned:

Abysia
Ermor
Marverni
Agartha
C'tis

I will then ask the monumental question: Is everbody finished with swaps? If no responses in the affirmative, Gandalf will resume his work and we can get moving.
At that point I'll assume that Pyg will be playing Caelum, and hunt11 will be playing Pangaea, etc, unless I hear different.

CuriousCat, your good to go on the forums just in case your wondering.

To save time, it is likely either myself or melnorjr will handle the team placements using a roll of the die and following the default rubric, reading top down on the opening post, left front, right front, left rear, right rear (depending upon the axis of course). If you've an alternate placement arrangement in mind PM me, when swaps are over. If there are objections to myself or melnorjr doing this, let me know and we'll bring in Edi.

[Immaculate]

Dont put me on the front lines- i'll get munched.

[Agema]

Pass from my team.

[Septimius Severus]

Dont put me on the front lines- i'll get munched.

Heh. Discuss with Algae and your team about moving you down a slot and possible moving up someone else (problem is both viccio and Rabbit are noobs as well). Maybe your captain can bring in makinus or psi, that is if someone doesn't mind going back bench on your team for now. :)

[Septimius Severus]

Agema has passed, Algae your turn. Swap or pass?

[AlgaeNymph]

Pass.Discuss with Algae and your team about moving you down a slot and possible moving up someone elseI believe Immaculate referred to the map placement and not the team roster. Am I correct, Immaculate?

[Immaculate]

yup- map placement but if we are three newbs i guess it doesn't matter...

[melnorjr]

He did, but septimius' point as that if immaculate was put in back it would necessarily be another noob put in front, which wouldn't seem to be any better off than immaculate.
The comment about bringing in someone from the bench was that they have more experience and might be able to handle the front lines better.

[Septimius Severus]

Melnorjr is correct. Algae's team has 3 noobs, although viccio may have slightly more experience than Rabbit or immaculate.

Indidual nation placement is somewhat tied to the team listings on the opening post in that that first two positions intended for the captain and intermediate level positions we will be placed forward by default. If you'd like your actual nation placement to differ, you need only PM me with your desired scheme. You can also achieve this without altering the default placement and having to send me a PM, by switching nations around among players. I still recommend people keep their two most experienced players forward so they won't catch hell.

Ok here's question you've all been waiting for:

Do team captains want to make any more swaps?

Absent any affirmative responses, Gandalf will be notified to proceed and the opening post will be updated.

[Septimius Severus]

I want to thank everyone for hanging in there through the debates and all. We currently have more than two dozen people involved in some way, and as with any first game in a series, establishing ground rules and so forth takes some doing. Team games also generally have lots of back and forth and I try to encourage input as much as feasable.

I think we've learned alot from our discussions that can be put into practice in games 2 and 3:

1. Even though vet (or experienced intermediate) team captains are likely to survive longer due to their experience, teams can and should not be debarred from winning even if the captain is the only one left on the winning team. A good team captain though will do everything they can make all their nations viable offensively as well as defensively (teach them) and won't view them as simply forge whores or as sources of gems/gold. This is of course obvious but you never know. Indeed I've taken pains to ensure that this won't be the case as everyone should be able to get in on the action.

2. Captains and returning alternates should use their first or second choice privilege to grab most of the "powerful" or important nations quickly and eliminate contention in the ordered lists.

3. If number 2 is followed, there should be enough variety in the ordered/ranked lists to eliminate the need for more than one method of resolving them. Method 1 results were so similar to method 2, if makes no sense in bothering with the second method unless absolutely necessary (abcddcbacbaabcd gives me a headache, aside from not being totally fair) :).

4. Swaps, using Agema's quick and orderly method, helps ensure everyone is as happy as can be. Whether it encourages gamesmanship (which is in effect attempting to cheat using dubious methods) is debatable. I like to think it gives some flexibility in case an individual should change their mind or a player needs to be replaced.

5. Team captains in addition to being experienced should be active enough to advocate and make decisions for their team especially in the early phase of a game. Individual players must not act in place of their captain or at least without the consensus of the team. Some semblance of order needs to be preserved. Instructions from admin(s) need to be followed.

Note to self: My opening post, though I'm told fairly complete, still leaves too much room for players to read between the lines or exploit gaps, and doesn't explain everything.

Have I forgotten anything?

Oh yes, don't forget we are here to have fun, winning is not everything! :D

[Septimius Severus]

Swaps are now officially closed! Gandalf has been notified. Opening post has been updated. Contact me with any placement or player/nation changes.

Finish your pretender designs, discuss strategies, run tests, contact players who may have died, or whatever else you need to do in the meantime.

Thanks.

[AnimateDream]

I know the time is long past for its relevance in this thread, but I think I have a more fair method of nation selection. abcd dcba dcba dcba dcba etc. Reversing the order every time sounds logical but if you look very closely it does little for the fairness.

For example if you went abcd dcba abcd. The a's get first pick of the all important first draft as well as getting first pick of third draft, while d only gets first pick of the second draft and has to deal with being last in the other two.

After getting first pick in the first draft, trailing 4 picks behind D after that doesn't seem too bad a deal for A.

[AlgaeNymph]

Discuss strategies.I've an opening strategy up for review in our forums (http://noobsvets.silverforum.net/viewforum.php?f=4).

[pyg]

I've an opening strategy up for review in our forums (http://noobsvets.silverforum.net/viewforum.php?f=4).

Hmmm, it says I don't have permission to read it. Can you fix that? ;)

[Septimius Severus]

I know the time is long past for its relevance in this thread, but I think I have a more fair method of nation selection. abcd dcba dcba dcba dcba etc. Reversing the order every time sounds logical but if you look very closely it does little for the fairness.

For example if you went abcd dcba abcd. The a's get first pick of the all important first draft as well as getting first pick of third draft, while d only gets first pick of the second draft and has to deal with being last in the other two.

After getting first pick in the first draft, trailing 4 picks behind D after that doesn't seem too bad a deal for A.

What I was saying though in the previous post was that I was going to do away with all such alphabetical ordering schemes, and stick with my method, not only because I see them as unbalanced in one way or another (someone has to be A and get first pick, D get's two picks in a row, etc, etc.), but also because the simpler line by line granting of uncontested picks from the ordered lists is probably all we will need (+ swaps to quiet any discontent).

Hell, if I read DrP correctly, he'd do away with swaps completely and you'd get what you get and deal with it! :D

I think the uncontested pick method generally does a fine job of giving teams pretty much what they wanted based on what and how high they listed them in the ranked lists.

I think one reason Noobheim may have not have fared as well as the other teams this time (though I think all teams did pretty well i.e. no one got their 9th or 12 picks, everyone got their first pick, etc.) was by submitting a list of the full 17 nations instead of the 12 or 13 which probably would have sufficed, causing Noobheim to possibly dilute their top picks a bit and not concentrate them as much as perhaps the other teams did who submitted shorter lists. Yes, there is an element of luck, but that is present in any method I can think of.

But I would definitely entertain a complete solution to the whole business for the next game that is completely balanced, makes as many people happy as possible, is not too complicated and easy on the poor admin, and is not too time consuming.

The sense and respond approach which has been advocated (where captains take turns posting a pick) sounds appealing, but can take awhile especially if there are a lot of nations to assign, and the team captains are not that active on the forum. Then there is the whole business of ordering and then deciding who is team a, b, c, d, and some have advocated even changing that up every round. A chat session would probably be the fastest way to handle this type of sense and respond approach (active vs passive ranked lists). I wouldn't mind it a bit if the team captains could handle the whole business in a single chat session on shrapnel, and save me and everyone else the headaches.:)

Thanks for your input. I think the alternates will become hot commodities come next game if they choose to play.

[AlgaeNymph]

Hmmm, it says I don't have permission to read it. Can you fix that? ;)I...don't know how yet. :o

[rdonj]

I think one reason Noobheim may have not have fared as well as the other teams this time (though I think all teams did pretty well i.e. no one got their 9th or 12 picks, everyone got their first pick, etc.) was by submitting a list of the full 17 nations instead of the 12 or 13 which probably would have sufficed, causing Noobheim to possibly dilute their top picks a bit and not concentrate them as much as perhaps the other teams did who submitted shorter lists. Yes, there is an element of luck, but that is present in any method I can think of.

Noobheim did just fine. They have always had a quite potent team. Arcoscephale isn't one of the top nations of the era, but grudgebringer is an arco specialist. He never plays anything BUT arco. So their only "bad" pick was ermor. Then they got to choose between pan and caelum. They chose pan. Their team is plenty strong. The only team that maybe sort of lost out is yours.

[Immaculate]

I can download the map but i can't play on it; it minimizes the game and brings up some pop-up. Thats not important though- i think it will work once i get the 0 turn file. What i wanted to see is how many provinces our starting province will be adjacent to. Can anyone say?

Also, in team games, what would happen if i move my army into a friendly neighbour's province? Does the game know we are playing teams, will it let us move into each other's lands? Will it let us fight as combined arms in multi-army battles?

Thanks.

[rdonj]

No, the game doesn't understand alliances. You can never join forces with an ally or move through allied territory without capturing it.

[ghoul31]

When are we starting?

[Septimius Severus]

No, the game doesn't understand alliances. You can never join forces with an ally or move through allied territory without capturing it.
You can however move units that are stealthy into the same province as your ally and through their territory. While the game is not terribly team friendly in that sense, with proper coordination, you can usually make things work fine.

If you'd like to check starting province neighbors you can load up the map in the editor and right click around to see them.

[Septimius Severus]

When are we starting?

Gandalf is performing his wizardry and we are placing human teams. We shall be ready for pretender uploads soon.

[Septimius Severus]

A few game notes:

I am pleased that Micah has stepped forward to advise The Blessed Ones team and answer any questions they may have.

Chris has asked to change his team name from Noobheim to ACGHHS, which apparently corresponds to the first letter of all his team members alphabetically. I was sorta of fond of Noobheim myself :), but this is of course the team captain's perogative. We will allow a single name change if any other captain wishes to follow suit.

The team forums, groups, and main post will be updated to reflect this change.

[melnorjr]

.
Chris has asked to change his team name from Noobheim to ACGHHS...

I'd like to rename the admin team to Rluaieomgblilrhtogh.

Or can only team captains do renaming?

Just you wait. I'm known for my adventures into ridiculous names. I was once named Almhalmarguillamgua Guarrilgruillem in an MMO.

People called me Al.

[ghoul31]

Deva's Darlings are changing their name to
Q))((###@'_WW+_++`''''&

[DrPraetorious]

The artists' formerly known as "Q))((###@'_WW+_++`''''&" will now be known as http://www.illuminati-news.com/graphics/trilateral-commission-logo.gif

[Septimius Severus]

Hmmm, perhaps I will do away with that rule, people seem to come up with some rather strange ideas.

[Agema]

Aw, and I was just about to change the Mysterios to The Giant Monkey Demon Mystery, which I think sums up our nations pretty well.

[Septimius Severus]

Aw, and I was just about to change the Mysterios to The Giant Monkey Demon Mystery, which I think sums up our nations pretty well.

Sounds like a horror/fantasy novel for young adults.

Not to try to influence the great taste of the Captains :rolleyes: but here's some ideas that actually sound like team names:

The Mystery Men

Chris' Curmudgeons

Algae Eaters

Nymphomania

Agema's Agitators

Pedersen's Panoply of Pain

Praetorious' Punishers

Praetorians

Dr. P & Co.

I could live with these types of names.

Sounds much better than a string of letters, numbers, or weird characters. :puke:

[chrispedersen]

Laugh as you will,

but I ran our team name by our team. To me Noobheim sounds like 'the Kingdom of the Noobs' and honestly we deserve better.

I would never accept a team name such as Chris's Curmudgeons - we are a team. Each member participates to the best of their ability.

So, while ACGHHS (Ax for short?) doesn't flow trippingly from the tongue, it emphasizes the values of team work, cooperation, and common purpose.

Chris
Team ACGHHS

[Agema]

You could go for "Team AAAAARGH!"

[GrudgeBringer]

Lol...

[hunt11]

other possible names are team ahahahaha or team that will achieve victory though total domination

[chrispedersen]

You could go for "Team AAAAARGH!"

Nah thats team 'talk like a pirate day'.

[Septimius Severus]

Well it sounds better than the Q))((###@'_WW+_++`''''& proposed by DrP I suppose.

Seriously though, if I didn't think you were serious, I wouldn't have changed it.

Looks like the trash talk has started :rant: either that or people have too much time on their hands.:lol

It's about time!

[AlgaeNymph]

So, while ACGHHS (Ax for short?) doesn't flow trippingly from the tongue, it emphasizes the values of team work, cooperation, and common purpose.How about Bloodheim? Both evocative and apropos.

As for me, I'll be keeping my team name for the above reasons.

[GrudgeBringer]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm, How about BloodBringer (Blends well with one of the teammates me thinks:up:

[Septimius Severus]

Actually 3 of the team names used for this game were derived from NvV history and were intended to be thematic. Noobheim was one of them. When the Vet's got their butts whipped :yield: for the second and final time in Noobs vs. Vets III, the Noobs were very popular throughout the land. The tribe, clan, and peoples (Noobs and Vets alike) who would eventually come together :five: to form the Kingdom of Noobheim (and take up arms against the AI threat) was formed in this early period, hence it still retains the name Noobheim, though it is comprised of different races and levels of player. ;)

I like Bloodheim too, or The Sanguinarium, Blood People, etc.

Makes it easy for a captain to follow the theme and pick appropriate nations.

I also like The Mystery Men (stealth/glamour), Children of Doom (death nations?). Maybe I'll use those three next time along with the name of the winning team from this game.

[Gandalf Parker]

Just to drop a dibbling of whats coming since it could apply here....
I have three common tactics when asked to be creative in this area.
One is put all the names in a hat, break them up into syllables, then rearrange pieces. I often use that as a recommendation when asked "how can I come up with a unique name for my baby" or something like that.

Another, which can be fun here, is to take a common word that comes to mind and check thesaurus.com for alternatives.

However, the AI will be using my joy of mnemonices. I had a start but Yomi got taken out.

Spies have brought forth unwelcome news. There has been formed Last United NAT of Abysia, Agartha, C'tis, and Yomi (the L.U.N.A.A.C.Y. Pantheon). They have agreed that Abysia shall be Pantokrator, Agartha gets to rule the Underworld, C'tis gains reign oer the monsters and beasts of the world. And Yomi shall gather together all demons, devils, and other-worldly beings. (no one else seems mentioned as they seem to feel that no one else shall be left)


With Yomi removed from my options I have moved tentatively to this....

The meeting representing the New Idols of Ctis, Abysia, Ermor, and Agartha was stealthily watched by all nations of the world. And well it should be for it was yet another effort to agree on who shall be the next Pantokrator. Like many such efforts by many nations it failed to come to an agreement about who should rule the world. However, they were able to fully agree on who it should NOT be. Therefore the new creed laid forth by the First Council of N.I.C.A.E.A. is an agreement on who shall be present at Armageddon. NONE of the member nations may attack each other until it is clearly apparent that all other pretenders to the High Throne have been taught the error of their beliefs. Until that time they shall all equally protect the Throne of the World from all comers (and from each other). No other arrangements were made for communication, trading, or aiding between these nations.

And thus the new battle for the world is laid down with new rules. Will you continue to rely on your age-old tactics to get you to Armageddon alone? Or are you willing to work with others to lessen the opposition before the final battle?

BTW:
Since this is the first of 3 planned games, the AIs are not insanely maximized. They are "good" AIs. The nations involved will be using the games list of pretenders for them, their own standard castle, their own standard units, sites, etc. The builds shall be forum-standard recommended with extras. Extra units and starting sites will be granted. Extra starting equipment (but nothing rated unique). And of course, they will be allied. These things will not be true for the later games.

[chrispedersen]

Actually 3 of the team names used for this game were derived from NvV history and were intended to be thematic. Noobheim was one of them. When the Vet's got their butts whipped :yield: for the second and final time in Noobs vs. Vets III, the Noobs were very popular throughout the land. The tribe, clan, and peoples (Noobs and Vets alike) who would eventually come together :five: to form the Kingdom of Noobheim (and take up arms against the AI threat) was formed in this early period, hence it still retains the name Noobheim, though it is comprised of different races and levels of player. ;)

I like Bloodheim too, or The Sanguinarium, Blood People, etc.

Makes it easy for a captain to follow the theme and pick appropriate nations.

I also like The Mystery Men (stealth/glamour), Children of Doom (death nations?). Maybe I'll use those three next time along with the name of the winning team from this game.

If my team prefers the Sanguinarium, or the people of Blood, I've no problem with either.

[Septimius Severus]

The meeting representing the New Idols of Ctis, Abysia, Ermor, and Agartha was stealthily watched by all nations of the world. And well it should be for it was yet another effort to agree on who shall be the next Pantokrator. Like many such efforts by many nations it failed to come to an agreement about who should rule the world. However, they were able to fully agree on who it should NOT be. Therefore the new creed laid forth by the First Council of N.I.C.A.E.A. is an agreement on who shall be present at Armageddon. NONE of the member nations may attack each other until it is clearly apparent that all other pretenders to the High Throne have been taught the error of their beliefs. Until that time they shall all equally protect the Throne of the World from all comers (and from each other). No other arrangements were made for communication, trading, or aiding between these nations.

And thus the new battle for the world is laid down with new rules. Will you continue to rely on your age-old tactics to get you to Armageddon alone? Or are you willing to work with others to lessen the opposition before the final battle?


Interesting description. These idolaters of N.I.C.A.E.A clearly represent a threat to all nations and peoples, one that must be overcome before true victory and ascendancy can be achieved.

[Septimius Severus]

If my team prefers the Sanguinarium, or the people of Blood, I've no problem with either.
I'll grant you and your team an exclusive opportunity to make one more change to your team name before the game begins if you wish (once we begin changes to team names will not be allowed), but you can stick with what you have if you like. No problem. :cool:

[Septimius Severus]

Team forums server currently down, hopefully it is only temporary.

[rdonj]

Still down :(

[GrudgeBringer]

Still down here and with chris...

[Septimius Severus]

Yeah, there's like 154 websites on that server, so I am hoping they'll get it back up soon. The domain name for our free forum host is not supposed to expire till July of next year so I was hoping they would last that long at least.

I hope everyone has pretty much gotten their pretender designs and basic strategy discussed and all and most of the pregame stuff out of the way.

I am working on creating backup forums using a more reliable host and server with full attachment functionality and no ads (I think I have found a decent one) in case the server does not come back online soon. It will be a shame to lose all that work and messages, but when it's free you never know. When created I'll enable self registeration so getting back into the grove won't be as painful. If need be I can always use forumotion (though it has ads) and just keep everything together.

It's too late to turn back now.:)

[Agema]

Just so everyone knows, especially my team, I'm going to a conference which, including travel, will occupy me from now until Friday 23rd. I'll have internet access and (unless some pinches my laptop) Dom3 to get things done; I will log in at least daily, do essentials to get the game started, help my team out, and will not need to ask for any delays.

However, please be aware I will not have a lot of time, so sorting really detailed and complex stuff out may not be possible.

[Septimius Severus]

Ok, the backup/new forums are online and can be found here:

http://noobsvets.hostingdelivered.com/

If the old forums don't come back up, these will become the default forums.

This is a more stable host and the gold version of PHPBB3 which includes full attachment functionality.

Self registration is enabled. You will still need myself or melnorjr to move you into the appropriate groups so you can access your teams forum though.

Sorry for any inconvenience. It is best to be ready just in case.

I'll repost the stickies in the new Neutral Ground forum ASAP.

Thanks.

[Maerlande]

I'm registered in new forums Sept.

[DrPraetorious]

Can we get a link to the backup forums at the root of the thread?

[AlgaeNymph]

Now all I need are the permissions to access my team forums and I'm good to go. :)

[Septimius Severus]

Thanks, everyone that has joined the new forums so far now has access to the appropriate forums. As is, captains are able to add new members into their group and forums via the user control panel, but I'm switching back to admin activation (I handle everything) till at least all the captains are our co-admin are on board.

I'll update the main post with a link.

[GrudgeBringer]

As Usual I can't seem to get things done the Easy way.

I can get to the Forums but it won't let me log in.

I had it send my password (just in case it was wiped out) but it says I don't exist.

grrrrrrrr

[rdonj]

You'll have to re-register for the backup forums.

[Septimius Severus]

Ok, the old forums are back online. Everyone can continue using those as the default or if the team captains wish we can use the backup forums instead (if you want to take advantage of the attachments and functionality). Captains and players post your preference if any.

I recommended that everyone register on both forums just in case.

Now where are we?

We are waiting for team nation placements by melnorjr and AI creation by Gandalf.

I'd like to get moving to pretender uploads and hopefuly turn 1 by this weekend.

Lets get this party started shall we.

[Septimius Severus]

Poll for everyone involved in this game:

Shall we use the new forums as default and keep the old ones as backup or shall we just stick with the old forums and keep the new ones as backup?

Pro: The new forums may be more reliable and have added functionality such as attachments and subscriptions might actually work.

Con: Everyone is already signed up on the old forums and all our messages are already there.

Let me hear you!

[DrPraetorious]

I'm sticking with the old ones for now - but can't every team decide individually? We don't even really need the public areas on those forums, since we have this thread...

[melnorjr]

My apologies for the delay on the startlocations - I just pmed them to septimius.

I would like to note however, that there might be some issues with them, as one team has two instances of two of their capitols with only one intervening province, and one player has a start with 4 connecting provinces, one of them a swamp, and another player has 7 connecting provinces.(I was given what provinces to place people in, and used a random number generator to determine which team was where, so if your starting province seems unbalanced in some way, it wasn't me. :p )

[Septimius Severus]

Thank you Melnorjr for your work. Every human team's capital has at least 4 province neighbors. Some capitals may have more but each team has some with more as well. The nature of the random geography of this small map with regard to placement led to 2 teams having one or two capitals that only have a single province intervening (yellow and green), however in both instances their is sufficient space for expansion, and I don't think anyones going to get Dom killed. In one instance a mountain range intervenes making it 3 provinces distant in terms of connections. Anyway these starts have been public for more than a month, everyone has had plenty of time to examine them. I recommened that we just get on with things and not sweat the small stuff. Unless you prefer more delays or option 2 starts.

[Septimius Severus]

I'm sticking with the old ones for now - but can't every team decide individually? We don't even really need the public areas on those forums, since we have this thread...

Yes, every team can decide individually and we will keep both forums, but I'd like to know which one the majority of people prefer so I can list one as backup and one as primary on the main post. I want as little confusion as possible. The neutral forums also provide a vehicle for inter-team coordination against the AI, rather than posting here, so I'd like people to tell me their preference.

The neutral forum also acts as a backup should there be an issue with the Shrapnel thread for whatever reason.

Thanks.

[chrispedersen]

Hey, have the maps been updated with starting locations?

[Septimius Severus]

Hey, have the maps been updated with starting locations?

Team starting locations will NOT be released. I want no grumbling, fussing, and anything else that might delay our already very delayed game. Once the game begins, you'll know where your team is (North, South, East, or West) of the center. As DrP says, you get what you get, so make the most of it.

If you mean am I going to write in the province numbers from the doc file, if someone wants to do so, feel free or create your own for your team. My image editing software might just make a mess of things.

Every individual nation within a team has been placed according to either the default placement I have specified or your submitted alternative (if you sent me one). Overall, most things are as balanced as I have time and desire to make them.

Next game, I'll play around with a larger map and I'll have room to spread things out a bit more.

Hmm, well as usual, I see few responses to my inquiries and requests for opinions, so I must take that as people don't care which forum is designated primary or secondary. Therefore we shall use the original forums as our primary forums and the new ones as backup. Unless I hearing something else soon.

Note: If this is the case, I will only be monitoring the original forums and this thread for any delay or substitution requests unless something happens again with our original forums. I really don't have to time to check both of them.

Thanks.

[Immaculate]

Response:
okay, great- i think its best to keep the forums we have going since we already started there.

Now, like you say, lets get this game going so that we can actually make use of the forums to discuss stuff.

[Septimius Severus]

Just waiting on Gandalf now, though I may be able to create the game before this.

[rdonj]

I am with my team captain on this. It doesn't really matter to me which forum we use, and although the added functionality of the new forum is nice it is probable it will remain largely a backup forum.

[Frozen Lama]

i should mention, i'll be gone from oct 19th-oct 24th, so i will not be able to comunicate with my team. i have a friend who can send in my turns for me, but he isn't on the forums. hopefully the first few turns will be ok for that.
thanks

[Septimius Severus]

i should mention, i'll be gone from oct 19th-oct 24th, so i will not be able to comunicate with my team. i have a friend who can send in my turns for me, but he isn't on the forums. hopefully the first few turns will be ok for that.
thanks

Probably won't be an issue, especially if you or they can get your turns in and receive your turns, without an alternate having to be brought in, and you or they can communicate in-game with Agema or one of us regarding initial expansion, assuming we are able to start by this weekend.

Thanks for informing everyone though.

rdonj, thanks for the input on the forum question. I may use the new forums as the primary forums for the next game to take advantage of the extra functionality, though I haven't decided yet. It is good we had that downtime in a way, since it spurred me to look for a better forum host.

[rdonj]

Yeah, for the next game the new forum would definitely be better.

[Septimius Severus]

Yeah, wish I could keep em together though.

I am glad Melnorjr handled the placement, I would strongly have been tempted to roll that die again and again till The Mysterios were safely on the opposite side of those raging (and probably very angry) giants of DrP and his Deva gang.

[chrispedersen]

Yeah, wish I could keep em together though.

I am glad Melnorjr handled the placement, I would strongly have been tempted to roll that die again and again till The Mysterios were safely on the opposite side of those raging (and probably very angry) giants of DrP and his Deva gang.

Huh? I thought placements (and colors) weren't being disclosed?

[melnorjr]

They're not. He's just speaking theoretically.

Septimius doesn't even know whose where unless he actually looked up the specstarts - I sent him a list of them without indication of which start was what nation.

[Septimius Severus]

I've decided to hold off on creating the game and starting pretender uploads on Llamaserver until Gandalf has finished his additions/changes to the .map file. While I seem to recall creating a game and switching mods and maps before the game started at least once before, it may be better to play it safe.

Due to a naming issue on the server, the map .rgb file and possibly the mod .dm file may need to be renamed, but you won't have to re-download anything. I'll let everyone know if this will be the case and what to rename them to before I create the game.

Thanks.

[Frozen Lama]

can we make sure to start it at least tomorrow, so i can send my pretender in before i leave

[Septimius Severus]

Game updates:

As Micah has done for the Blessed Ones, Lingchih has graciously accepted the position of team advisor for The Mysterios replacing Executor in that capacity. Thanks to Executor for his help.

I have received the AI work from Gandalf. Thank you Gandalf for your excellent work. I will be creating the game and starting pretender uploads (assuming no problems) Sunday afternoon.

[Septimius Severus]

The game has been created on Llamaserver. I am waiting for it to show up on the list of games awaiting pretenders.

Edit: Ok, the game is up. You can send in your pretenders.
Remember to have the BI mod (2-1 Gold) enabled when creating your pretenders (just in case).

Before the game starts (before you try your first turn, you'll likely need to rename the map .rgb file you downloaded to "Noobs_and_Vets_Map" as the .map file Llamaserver is using is pointing to that file with the underscores.

Additionally, you may also need to rename the BI mod gold version .dm file posted on our opening post to "better_independents_v2-1_g". However, I don't think this will be necessary. We'll know when we try to run our first turn file. I'll upload the renamed versions for those who haven't yet downloaded anything.

Let's get those pretenders in then!

[Frozen Lama]

just a reminder, i will be gone till the 24th. trumanator will be subbing for me.

[Septimius Severus]

just a reminder, i will be gone till the 24th. trumanator will be subbing for me.

Ok, but you could have contacted one of our alternates Tam or Sum1. Assuming you are able to reach them in time.

[Frozen Lama]

trumanator is my brother, so he is my logical sub. otherwise i would have.

[Septimius Severus]

trumanator is my brother, so he is my logical sub. otherwise i would have.
Hopefully our alternates will recover from the offense! :D

Clarification for all: when you rename the .rgb and/or the .dm files, don't change the extensions. This goes without saying but just wanted to make sure.

[Immaculate]

I thought we were using CBM and better indies mods, but now that i look at it again it looks like better indies only. Can you clarify which mods we are using...?

[GrudgeBringer]

OK....what is all this name changing on the map, and Bi mod etc.

I have NO idea what you are talking about (though it must have to do with the placing of nations) or how to do it.

If you guys want to have someone that is a little more computer literate take my place, I will certainly understand.:confused:

[DrPraetorious]

Sept - could you update the root of the thread by attaching the mod and map-image files with the correct filenames?

This is actually going to be easier than having people find and rename files they already downloaded.

[Septimius Severus]

The files have all been updated on the opening thread and can be re-downloaded if you want although not really necessary.

Basically the only concern for me really is the map image file. I don't know enough about how the server, game, and .map files interact so I am recommending everyone who has already downloaded the map, simply rename the map image file (thats the big 7 meg .rgb file) by replacing the spaces with underscores "_". But you can just re-download it if you prefer.

Renaming the mod's .dm file will probably not be required, but if you want to be extra sure before the actual game starts, you can rename it as I mentioned (dropping the "old" off the end) or simply re-download the renamed version I have uploaded.

Immaculate, yes we are only using the BI version posted on the opening post of this thread (there are 3 flavors or variants of BI 2-1), the gold version is the one we are using. Though CBM was discussed as a possibility early on, we decided against it a long time ago (it seems). If CBM were being used you'd see it in the game thread name and I'd also have a link or copy of it on the opening post.

No sweat people, really. :cool: Grudge, don't you freak out on me. ;)

[GrudgeBringer]

LOL, I just am computer challenged and I have to write myself directions just to get the nmaps and Mods in the right place.

This was like swatting a fly with an atom bomb for me!!

So your saying just reload the things on the first Page?

Do I need to delete anything oe will it just overwrite?:eek:

[Septimius Severus]

LOL, I just am computer challenged and I have to write myself directions just to get the nmaps and Mods in the right place.

This was like swatting a fly with an atom bomb for me!!

So your saying just reload the things on the first Page?

Do I need to delete anything oe will it just overwrite?:eek:

Yes, you can just re-download the "things" :) on the first page. You'll need to delete the old files if you do. You could leave the old ones there if you think you don't know how to do that, probably won't hurt but you'll have duplicates.

[Septimius Severus]

For those who have been following our saga since the beginning a few notes for those who may be interested in such largely inconsequential stuff:

A. I've decided not to bother changing the actual map image to reflect the sea province required by Formoria. It was actually easier for me (since I don't have an image editor that can edit .tga and .rgb files) to simply apply an appropriate province name to explain it. Pyg's generous offer not withstanding. :happy:

B. I decided against adding AI commands for all the human teams potentially allying them with the AI Menace team largely because I didn't feel like typing up the extra 64 or so ally commands that would be needed and wanted to get the game up and running. This of course really doesn't mean anything except that when/if a human team concedes (and is set to AI) it will in theory attack the AI team if still somehow present.

Ally commands have however been added for the AI team members of course and I have added 24 ally commands for each human team to ensure that in the event a human team concedes and each nation is turned AI, they will in theory still function as a team and won't attack each other.

As in any team game, turning individual nations AI within a team is not recommended if other nations are still being played by humans, hence your best bet is to bring in alternates or subs to take over. If an entire team concedes though (having nations still alive), that is when this theoretical AI stuff will come in to play.

Just FYI. Now I offer a prayer to the gods on behalf of my myself, all team members, and anyone else who has given of their time and effort to make this game a reality and a success:

:bow: Oh ye great gods of Dominions, we pray that Llama's server (and the game) will correctly process the AI's we've added and their shall be no problems, and we ask that you grant us favor in the upcoming battles and that you smite our enemies human and non-human alike. And light a fire under the arse of those who have yet to submit their pretenders so that we may begin soon. Amen. :angel

[chrispedersen]

ACGHHS'ers - please check the email and the forums!
Lets get this cookie started!

[pyg]

Ally commands have however been added for the AI team members of course and I have added 24 ally commands for each human team to ensure that in the event a human team concedes and each nation is turned AI, they will in theory still function as a team and won't attack each other.

As in any team game, turning individual nations AI within a team is not recommended if other nations are still being played by humans, hence your best bet is to bring in alternates or subs to take over. If an entire team concedes though (having nations still alive), that is when this theoretical AI stuff will come in to play.


I haven't tested this, but the manual suggests that the #allies command only works for AI - AI relationships and will likely ignore the supposed truce with humans. As you say, it's best not to let individual members of a team go AI unless the whole team goes.

[Septimius Severus]

Ally commands have however been added for the AI team members of course and I have added 24 ally commands for each human team to ensure that in the event a human team concedes and each nation is turned AI, they will in theory still function as a team and won't attack each other.

As in any team game, turning individual nations AI within a team is not recommended if other nations are still being played by humans, hence your best bet is to bring in alternates or subs to take over. If an entire team concedes though (having nations still alive), that is when this theoretical AI stuff will come in to play.


I haven't tested this, but the manual suggests that the #allies command only works for AI - AI relationships and will likely ignore the supposed truce with humans. As you say, it's best not to let individual members of a team go AI unless the whole team goes.

Exactly. These potential alliances will only take effect if/when the parties involved are controlled by the AI. That is our hope at least, for Gandalf has indicated that he believes there is only a 50% chance of it actually working correctly possibly due to the way the game processes the .map file. For instance if the game only processes the #allies commands in the .map file once, a newly AI'ed player may not be recognized as AI. Still it's better than nothing, we will see if it works. But in any event a team should go AI together, that much is fairly clear.

Deva's: Illuminated One, your set to go on your team's forum. An informed alternate is better than one who starts cold. I think for the next game in addition to a team adviser for every team, I will possibly add 4 slots for global alternates, who will be able to serve on any team without having privy info. Yes, I could do all alternates like that, but I think having dedicated team alternates gives them an advantage as opposed to going in cold, and encourages a team mentality, aside from the benefit of extra input.

[Septimius Severus]

I've created a poll on our team forums in the neutral (public access) area regarding possible team names/themes for future games. Anyone who'd like to vote (you needn't be in the game) or add a suggestion or idea please drop by and share your opinion:

http://noobsvets.silverforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=38

Something to do while we wait for the server and the final four pretenders.

[DrPraetorious]

I propose a grand alliance against whichever team is the last to upload a pretender ;).

[rdonj]

Sounds good to me.

[GrudgeBringer]

I propose a no attack policy for the first Nation that got there pretender in...(ahhhh, I think that be me!!)

[Septimius Severus]

Gold star to Grudge and anyone else for early pretender submission. :you:

Oh, did I mention my cool poll on team names below? :feedback:

http://noobsvets.silverforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=38

:cry:

[Septimius Severus]

So far 14 pretenders in, Llamaserver still apparently having issues, hopefully though it will be corrected and Hunt and Rabbit will be able to get their turns in. I do hope we haven't lost anyone, but I generally expect some attrition. Chris and Algae have you been in contact with them? I sent a reminder email out but no response yet from Hunt11 or Rabbit dynamite.

If we have issues regarding the AI with Llamaserver or the server is down for some time, remember there is always Gandalf's server.

[Micah]

I still haven't gotten a forum confirm or any correspondence from my minions, what's the deal?

[RabbitDynamite]

I am not sure if Llama server is recieving me. Game name for the message name is "Noobs & Vets" correct?

[GrudgeBringer]

Sept,

You Said "So far 14 pretenders in, Llamaserver still apparently having issues, hopefully though it will be corrected and Hunt and Rabbit will be able to get their turns in."

I hope you meant Pretenders because I haven't received turn 1 either and with all this stuff with llama going down, I am not sure I would have seen it anyway.

On another note, I am leaving town for Phoenix AR for my last tournament of th year (Thank God, its been a looooong year).

As dumb as I am about computers I DO have GOtomyPC and will be able to get my turns in. My fear is that with all the spamming ect my Comp could lock up (it did last tourney) and I can't reboot it.

Sooooooo, IF you see that I haven't got my turn in if we start before I get back (Sunday night LATE, please extend it as I will get it in FIRST thing Monday morning (I am CST...is that GMT-5).

Thanks!!!:up:

[hunt11]

The moment llamerserver calms down again I will get my god in.

[AlgaeNymph]

Game name for the message name is "Noobs & Vets" correct?Noobs_and_Vets_AI_Menace

I found it on the Llamaserver page. Wish it was in this thread's first post too.

[Tarrax]

I am a noob and this looks interesting. Too bad it looks filled. Since it says it's a three-game series and assuming the next ones will be filled anew, I'd wanna play in the next one.

[Septimius Severus]

I still haven't gotten a forum confirm or any correspondence from my minions, what's the deal?

Micah, your all set to go on the team forums. You should be able to log in and post messages and so forth on your team forum. If you have any issues logging in let me know ASAP.

[Septimius Severus]

I am a noob and this looks interesting. Too bad it looks filled. Since it says it's a three-game series and assuming the next ones will be filled anew, I'd wanna play in the next one.

Tarrax, we can never get enough alternates, that's my motto. Even though our team alternate slots are filled, I will retain you as a global alternate (PM me your e-mail address) for now. If a regular team alternate slot opens I'll move you in to it and on that team, if not, you may have a chance to play as a sub when the game starts. Alternates have a guaranteed spot in the next game. Sound good?

Team captains:capt:, anyone need a new alternate?

[Septimius Severus]

14 Pretenders (.2h files) in so far according to the Llamaserver game page. Grudge, your delay request for turn 1 is noted, best of luck to you.

Rabbit and Hunt, keep trying to get your pretenders in. If you have questions about submitting pretenders let someone know.
I think it may be wise for me to turn off auto start on the game, until I see that the issues with llamaserver have been fixed.

[Micah]

Thanks sept, I didn't get an email and my password autosave had my email instead of my username, so it wasn't logging me in and I thought it was due to a lack of confirmation, things are now sorted. I'd like to make sure I get to chat with my team about pretenders before we get underway though, so don't hurry the start too much, if you would, in case there's desire for tweaks.

On that note, please go check the team forum, my minions.

[Tarrax]

I am a noob and this looks interesting. Too bad it looks filled. Since it says it's a three-game series and assuming the next ones will be filled anew, I'd wanna play in the next one.

Tarrax, we can never get enough alternates, that's my motto. Even though our team alternate slots are filled, I will retain you as a global alternate (PM me your e-mail address) for now. If a regular team alternate slot opens I'll move you in to it and on that team, if not, you may have a chance to play as a sub when the game starts. Alternates have a guaranteed spot in the next game. Sound good?

Team captains:capt:, anyone need a new alternate?

Sounds good, thanks. I'll PM you my e-mail now.

[hunt11]

LLamaserver has accepted my pretender now.

[RabbitDynamite]

Llama has received my pretender.

[Maerlande]

I see 16 pretenders on Llamaserver. Looks like we're a go.

[Septimius Severus]

Yes, looks like the Llamaserver is functioning properly again. What would the community do without the likes of Llamabeast or Gandalf?
Let's roll and hope everything goes smoothly. Good luck. :):happy::D

[Septimius Severus]

I've started the game, now I am waiting for it to show up in the running games list on the server.

Edit: Hmmm, nothing happening so far. A PM to Llama may be in order soon.

[Micah]

"I'd like to make sure I get to chat with my team about pretenders before we get underway though, so don't hurry the start too much, if you would, in case there's desire for tweaks."

I just spent a couple of hours coming up with pretender builds...

[Septimius Severus]

"I'd like to make sure I get to chat with my team about pretenders before we get underway though, so don't hurry the start too much, if you would, in case there's desire for tweaks."

I just spent a couple of hours coming up with pretender builds...

Whoa, thought you had gotten that accomplished. Hmm, perhaps in my zeal to get going I forgot that forum communication is not the fastest. Well, don't know what to tell ya now since I already pressed the button. But the game is not starting anyway right now, and I sent a PM to llama about it. Either he will reset the start or get the game running, or else we will all need to re-upload pretenders. I'll send another PM and see if it is possible to put the game back into waiting for pretenders mode. Sorry. I suspect something has gone wrong but we will see.

[rdonj]

The game has spontaneously decided it does not exist. Perhaps something happend to all games awaiting pretenders.

[DrPraetorious]

Well, that gives Micah time to overcoach his sinister proteges.

Can we get a PM blitz to the players telling them to resend pretenders, assuming that is required?

[AlgaeNymph]

I tried resending it, the game no longer exists. It is a mystery

[GrudgeBringer]

I'm in Phoenix done with day 1 0f the Tourney.

I keep checking and keep getting the same response.

On this go to my PC thing on a small laptoI is a GIANT pain in the B*tt becaue its so slow and i am not used to not having a mouse.

I'll try and check back in Tomorrow late, But I honestly would just rather wait till its fixed and do this from home.

Don't give up on me...I WILL retu

[Septimius Severus]

I have been awaiting a response from Llamabeast to my PM's. I don't know how long it will be before I get a response. I suspect one of two things happened:

1. Some issue related to the recent problems with Llamaserver

2. Llamaserver does not know how to properly interface with the game settings to set AI players correctly when they are setup via .map file commands.

I've tested the .map file on my computer and no problems, as long as I manually set the 4 AI's specified in the .map file in the game setup screen. If I don't the game won't start and crashes with a "nagok gik fel" error saying it cannot find the AI's.

Unless DrP, or another vet knows more about this issue and until I hear something back from Llamabeast, I am probably going to try re-creating the game again setting max players to 20 (an extra 4 to account for the AI) and auto-start turned off. I'll direct players to send copies of their pretenders to my e-mail as well so that I can pass them on to Gandalf for hosting on his server if need be.

Comments, suggestions? Before I begin.

[chrispedersen]

Not to worry Grudge, your fearless captain is here.
I can resubmit your pretender.

[Septimius Severus]

The way llamaserver is set up is geared toward human MP games (there's no way to set AI player options), and there have been so few games like ours that I wasn't aware Llamabeast may need to actually set up our game for us (no precedents I could find). I was assuming the .map file would pass the necessary variables to the game through some arcane magic only the creator of the llamaserver understands.

Assuming, this is not a problem related to the recent issues on Llamaserver, we could use 20 pretenders (have Gandalf design the AI Gods), submit them, and then turn them AI, but that might lose alot of the extra stuff Gandalf has put into the .map file, and would lose a turn of AI actions.

I will wait till tommorow to hear from Llamabeast (I know our game is on the server somewhere, probably crashed) to see if he can set up the game so that the AI specifications in the .map file are correctly passed to the server. If I don't hear something by then, we probably need to host via Gandalf. It is a mystery to me as to how the llamaserver actually interacts with the game setup screen you normally see.

I hope everyone understands that I anticipated this might happen and I want to reassure all players that we will start as soon as possible, on one server or another.

[Gandalf Parker]

The way the LLama server runs has its pros and cons. Since its only pbem games he can support a game-creation page. Since my server runs each game continually I cant afford to open those flood doors altho I did mess with it abit.

And the AI glitch is actually a "broken" thing in the game itself. Part of the "scenario" thing that isnt really working in Dom3. AI's added to the map (scenario) SHOULD automatically see the AIs and include them as players IMHO. That is how the scenario tag worked in Dom2.

The workaround is that you have to add command-line switches putting in the AIs. LLama might be willing to hand-massage that but he is pretty involved with the move and all.

Doing the AIs as players then flipping to ai is an option but it puts them into the games cheat-detection limits. They would be better than randomly created ones, but not as good as offline designed ones.

[chrispedersen]

well, I have lots of machines lying around, and a static ip address. If you can do the setup gandalf I can do some of the other grunt work, like burning ubunto whatever on it.

[Gandalf Parker]

the community can always use another server
http://any1can.blogspot.com/

[Septimius Severus]

Well, I've received no response from Llamabeast regarding our lost game. In the interests of moving things along, we will therefore make use of Gandalf's server.

Please send your pretender files to my e-mail: septimius.severus211@yahoo.com

Putting "Noobs & Vets" or anything like that somewhere in the e-mail will be helpful so I don't delete them by accident.

Once I receive all files, I will forward them and our game files to Gandalf, and any other needed info, so he can set the game up.

We can then either play via e-mail or via direct connect or perhaps even a combination of both. Direct connect saves alot of time in sending and recieving e-mails back and forth. As long as I can save my turn and don't have to do everything in one sitting, it is a fine option. But this will be up to you guys. Gandalf can elaborate more on our play options.

Send me those pretenders ASAP.

[Frozen Lama]

oh god. i can see things really fubar'd while i was gone. i'll send my god to sept tomorrow if i can.

[ghoul31]

ok, I'm quitting this game. Its been going for a month and a half and is going nowhere.

[melnorjr]

It should be starting very soon - if it weren't for the server issues it would have been going already. If you stick it out just a little longer things should get rolling.

of course, we won't hold it against you if you do leave.

[Septimius Severus]

Ghoul, we shall be starting very shortly. I urge you to keep your spot. No sense jumping ship now. If you really want out though, contact your captain ASAP so he can arrange an alternate. None of us were aware of the issues with Llamaserver and AI map commands. Our game is sufficiently unique that no one else has tried it at least via Llamaserver.

[Septimius Severus]

8 Pretenders received so far:

Neifelheim
Kailasa
Yomi
Tir'na nog
Helheim
T'ien Chi'
Arco
Mictlan

7 more to go.

[rdonj]

By the way, if we're playing on gandalf's server I think generally you want to password protect your pretender for that?

[Septimius Severus]

By the way, if we're playing on gandalf's server I think generally you want to password protect your pretender for that?

I am not sure, depends on whether we are doing direct connect or PBEM I suppose. Gandalf can set up the game as PBEM instead of direct connect if need be. You guys have been through enough, so I don't want anyone to feel like they need to redo their pretenders just to password protect them.

If people have sent me pretenders without passwords and we learn that it is needed via direct connect on Ganfalf's server, and he can't get around it someway, we will simply go the PBEM or combo route. If you have already password protected your pretender, a master password should deal with any issues relating to accessing your turn.

[Gandalf Parker]

Generally, any time you create a pretender in the menu tool its a good idea to uniquely password it. Any decision not to involves a certain level of trust.

The game can be setup for direct, or pbem, or both (which I recommend). Also simple notifications of the turn hosting by email, or text-message to cell phone, or twitter post, etc etc.
http://www.dom3minions.com/Hosting_Features.txt

[Gandalf Parker]

Well many people dont even on my server altho Ive never had a complaint that it was abused. And I wouldnt say that pbem games mean you dont need to password it. But its up to each person.

[Septimius Severus]

Oops, deleted my previous message.

So, basically, we can go either Direct Connect only (there's a chance people can look at your turn if you don't PW protect it, not that anyone would), Combo (ditto), or PBEM only which is slightly more secure in that turns will only be available via e-mails sent out to specific e-mail addresses. Combo sounds more flexible to me and probably means faster turn submissions. If people prefer PBEM only, that is doable as well.

[Gandalf Parker]

Correct.

Gandalf Parker
--
"That which security shall do, the search for easy management shall undo."

[Septimius Severus]

There you have it everyone. If anyone has sent me an unprotected pretender and you do not wish to redo it or resend it just to put a password in we will go PBEM only (it is only fair since people were expecting to host via Llamaserver). I want everyone to feel secure and to make this as easy as possible. Post here or PM me if that is the case. Otherwise we go combo.

[GrudgeBringer]

I will be home in 5 hours we ended up taking 5th in the uS National Tourney.....we (make that read I), stunk today.I will trust in Chris to get my pretender in and protected ot whatever.Will be up and running tomorrow morning.:up:

[chrispedersen]

well congrats and condolences on fifth.

I would rather just got PBEM - this is how team Noobheim is setup, and I'd like to continue that. Lack of passwords makes it easier to look at each others turns.

Also, SS - you should have Sauromatia as well, as I know I sent it to you, along with the other two.

[AlgaeNymph]

I would very much prefer PBEM, with turn deadline reminders.

[Gandalf Parker]

The mod that is attached to the first message references a tga image that does not seem to be included. It might not cause a problem but Im not sure.

[Septimius Severus]

Very well, PBEM only it shall be. With turn deadline reminders. If you want to pw protect any pretenders that is fine, if not that is fine also. Doesn't matter much with PBEM.

Gandalf, nah that missing .tga is just the graphic image that shows up next to mod name in the game preferences section. I didn't include it in the archive to simplify things (same reason I didn't put in the other 2 variants), but it makes absolutely no difference and doesn't affect game play in any way. I've enabled and played with the mod no problems. But I think I'll go ahead and include it, for those people who want the extra aesthethic touch. Thanks for reminding me.

[Septimius Severus]

I've got 10 pretenders so far:

Arco
Helheim
Kailasa
Lanka
Mictlan
Neifelheim
T'ien Chi'
Tir na nog
Ulm
Vanheim

5 more to go.

[AlgaeNymph]

And we send them directly to Sev via his e-mail, on the old forum site (http://noobsvets.silverforum.net/viewforum.php?f=1&sid=419f5ad97c3d50c4a4ee9e0436291a35) which is working again.

[DrPraetorious]

Well, ghoul31 *did* check in, so I feel a bit of a tool to punt him, but he's not here so he's not here. So: I active illuminated one as his alternate. Zapang! It is done.

Illuminated One: you can have Caelum or Hinnom, your choice. I think pyg21 would slightly-prefer Hinnom, although he has some practice with Caelum. Post your desired pretender design for your desired nation on the team forum.

I'll keep people uptodate here in the main thread so that they know I'm not dead - although I'm pretty busy this week :(

[Micah]

In a last-ditch attempt to give my team a better chance by appealing to The People instead of leaving it up to admin fiat: Would anyone make a fuss about the swap or really feel cheated by not having a chance to take Van as a swap nation if my team was allowed to swap out Van for Abysia? Thanks.

[Lingchih]

I don't have any objections, though I have no real say in the matter, as the Mysterios advisor, if Micah wants to suggest a nation swap for his team. As advisor, if he feels his team is untenable as is, then by all means, make it more tenable. It is perhaps getting a bit late for this, but the game has been delayed for quite a while anyhow.

[chrispedersen]

Well, ghoul31 *did* check in, so I feel a bit of a tool to punt him, but he's not here so he's not here. So: I active illuminated one as his alternate. Zapang! It is done.

Illuminated One: you can have Caelum or Hinnom, your choice. I think pyg21 would slightly-prefer Hinnom, although he has some practice with Caelum. Post your desired pretender design for your desired nation on the team forum.

I'll keep people uptodate here in the main thread so that they know I'm not dead - although I'm pretty busy this week :(

Ghoul31 is involved in two games, and is getting his turns in regularly.

Also, Sept, I pmed you that I know that the sauromatia pretender has been sent to you 2x.

[DrPraetorious]

In a last-ditch attempt to give my team a better chance by appealing to The People instead of leaving it up to admin fiat: Would anyone make a fuss about the swap or really feel cheated by not having a chance to take Van as a swap nation if my team was allowed to swap out Van for Abysia? Thanks.

No! The game has been delayed long enough already, we're going to lose more players, just start the damn game!

[DrPraetorious]

One way or another we'll have all of our pretenders in by Wednesday.

EDIT: I've sent a Caelum Pretender to Septimius. If none of my teammates send in a Caelum pretender, and we're ready to start, just use the one I sent.

[Septimius Severus]

A few game notes:

Drpraetorius is dropping Ghoul31 from his team. This automatically brings in Tarrax (the global alternate) onto the Deva's.

I appreciate that Micah has come into the game to help The Blessed Ones in the capacity of team advisor. But I'm am really against reopening swaps from the AI pool at this very late stage. Several of the team Captains have voiced objections to any more delays and to any further actions that would cause any more delays.

I now have 14 pretenders (including my own):

Formoria
Arco
Helheim
Kailasa
Lanka
Mictlan
Niefelheim
Pangaea
Sauromatia
T'ien Chi'
Tir na nog
Ulm
Vanheim
Yomi

I need two more pretenders:

Hinnom
Caelum

Edit: I need one more pretender

Hinnom

[Septimius Severus]

All pretenders have been received. Are there any last minute changes/revisions? This is the final call. Deva's, got your act together yet? Who's playing who?

[DrPraetorious]

pyg is absolutely playing Hinnom. I'll send him a reminder to submit a pretender :).

[Septimius Severus]

Very good Deva's, and Illuminated is playing Caelum.

Pretender submissions/revisions are over. I am now sending all of the game files and info (including e-mail addresses) to Gandalf for game creation on the Dom3Minions server utilizing PBEM with hosting reminders. Good luck, and may the best team win.

This should be a quite exciting game. Get your bets in! I can't resist some speculation.

Five great teams who will emerge as the ultimate victor:

Deva's Darlings: It's no secret they are the favorite, led by the legendary DrPraetorius and his talented and experienced crew. The doctor is in!

ACGHHS: Probably the second favorite, skillfully and actively helmed by the notorious and extremely gifted Chrispedersen.

The Mysterios: A team whose lineage is steeped in Noobs vs. Vets history with many experienced members, it is commanded by the noble Agema and advised by the NvV veteran Lingchih. My personal pick, go Mysterios! :D

The Blessed Ones: Something of an upstart team but with lots of talent and potential. It is commanded by the courageous AlgaeNymph and advised by perhaps one of the best Dom3 MP players right now, Micah. Are they blessed?

The AI Menace: The longest shot, but they are probably not to be taken too lightly, especially if ignored.

[GrudgeBringer]

I am probably the weakest of all the combatants in this game, but I am REALLY looking forward to seeing how this plays out.

When I subbed for the last 1/3 in the NvV game and had to keep Baalz occupied while my team did the heavy lifting, it showed me that these team games can be quite exacting and exciting.

Good Luck to us...and medium luck to the rest of you!!!:up:

[Septimius Severus]

And don't miss the next game in this exciting and innovative series featuring:


More provinces to conquer
Direct connect and PBEM capability
New roles including team advisers for every team and global alternates
Additional special magic sites to claim
A deadlier and more powerful AI team to defeat
And much, much, more :eek:

Feel free to post suggestions if you have them.

(shameless promotion)

[DrPraetorious]

Deva's Darlings: It's no secret they are the favorite, led by the legendary DrPraetorius and his talented and experienced crew. The doctor is in!



Uh-oh.

Uh... actually, my friend RodSuoirotearp, who is a totally green newbie and no good at this game at all, let alone a threat to anyone, will be subbing in as captain, er... until I get back.

So there is totally no need for the rest of you to ally against us.

[Immaculate]

How did you change the title of the thread?

[rdonj]

You can change the title of the thread by editing the first post.

I actually think several of the teams have the potential to be quite strong. In particular, the Blessed Ones with the inestimable micah advising them could be quite the dark horse.

[Septimius Severus]

Deva's Darlings: It's no secret they are the favorite, led by the legendary DrPraetorius and his talented and experienced crew. The doctor is in!



Uh-oh.

Uh... actually, my friend RodSuoirotearp, who is a totally green newbie and no good at this game at all, let alone a threat to anyone, will be subbing in as captain, er... until I get back.

So there is totally no need for the rest of you to ally against us.

Ally against you and the Deva's, perish the thought! :shock::eek:: What gave you a crazy idea like that? :)

I was just speculating about a hypothesis, I know I don't know nothin! :confused:

ACGHHS, with their emphasis on teamwork :ghug: (as exemplified in their team name) are a force to be reckoned with as well.

[Septimius Severus]

I'm also interested in seeing whether the BI mod will make any meaningful/significant difference in the effective difficulty of the AI team. If it doesn't, then its use might be discontinued in the next game.

Ok, well my gut feelings about the odds on each team seem pretty much on the money.

Having some time to waste, I did a calculation using each starting players Shrapnel forum join date to give a general idea of how long that player has been playing Dominions (I know it is a flawed measure which doesn't take into account actual games played/and other shrapnel games like SE) but what the hell.

Based on that, here's what I found:

Avg starting player experience = % chance of winning:

ACGHHS - 3yrs, 7 months = 46% (Hoplo has earliest join date of anyone, followed by Chris!)
Deva's - 2yrs, 1 month = 27%
Mysterios - 1 yr, 5 months = 18%
Blessed Ones - 9 months = around 10%

This seems to favor ACGHHS. But you could then add in a bonus of x percent * the number of nations that team has that are listed among the top 10 winningest EA nations in the victorious nations thread. Depending upon the weighting of x, the Deva's could be seen to have the real actual advantage. You could also add in an adviser bonus, etc, etc.

This is just for fun of course. :D

[Hoplosternum]

Well in my defence for how rubbish I am considering my great forum age I must confess I joined the board for Space Empires not Dominions. And although I owned Dom 2 I did little more than load it up. Never really playing till Dom 3 and then I was a late starter :)

And I am still waiting for my Gold Pen icon for being on the boards 5 years....

[DrPraetorious]

Do we have an ETA on the actual start? The troops are getting restless...

[Septimius Severus]

Well in my defence for how rubbish I am considering my great forum age I must confess I joined the board for Space Empires not Dominions. And although I owned Dom 2 I did little more than load it up. Never really playing till Dom 3 and then I was a late starter :)

And I am still waiting for my Gold Pen icon for being on the boards 5 years....

I suspected as much, since your forum age is older than both Chris and DrP. So assuming your effective forum age is say only 2 years, I can recalculate my figures appropriately (forgot to add a base of 25% to the above not counting the AI team):

Deva's - 2 yrs, 1 month + nation bonus = 75%
ACGHHS - 2 yrs, 7 months = 63%
Mysterios - 1 yr, 5 months + nation bonus = 56%
Blessed Ones - 9 months - nation bonus = 26%

Sounds better. ;)

I've no ETA yet DrP, I know Gandalf said he was ill :sick: for a bit, but I'll try to get you one soon. It won't be long now I suspect. While your waiting there's a nice new poll on team names/themes on our forum, if you haven't noticed. :D

[rdonj]

If you go by games actually won per player, Chris' team clearly comes out on top.

Chrispedersen has won 2 games, got a draw in a 3rd, and either a team victory or another draw in a 4th game... it's slightly unclear from the HoF. Hoplosternum has a newbie game victory, plus NvV3. Grudgebringer has a big team victory, where he was the punching bag for the opposing team ;)

Dr P has (in the hall of honor) 1 recorded solo victory, and one team victory. Pyg and I share in the same, large team victory from NvV1, and no one else we have on our side has won a game. Edit: Actually, I take that back, I played a scenario game with a few people that my side technically won also (the game was abandoned due to various map imbalances), so I have two team victories.

From your team, agema has 1 win, you have two team wins, and you're being advised by Lingchih, who has 2 team victories.

The blessed ones' AlgaeNymph has one victory, and is the only playing member with a victory credited. However, they are being advised by micah, who has 7....


If you want to count wins by nation, chris' is also hardly deficient.

Wins for ACGHHS nations - 15.5
Wins for Deva's Darlings nations - 15.5
Wins for Mysterios nations - 12.5
Wins for Blessed Ones nations - 8

So, if we examine the raw data rather than the anti-giant hype/propoganda machine, clearly it would seem that ACGHHS is the team to beat, not the Devas, as under every measure of player skill and nation capability, they come out either even with or ahead of the Devas. In some cases by significant margins.

:)

[Hoplosternum]

There are many other ways to determine the favourite of course. If we go by quantum_mechani's rankings in the Dominion Nations Evaluations thread (excluding the irrelevent SP rank and I have had to use CPs rank for Lanka as QM did not list them) we get rankings of:

Devas (18+10+15+12) = 55
Mysterios (18+11+13+12) = 54
Blessed Ones(14+11+11+17) = 53
ACGHHS (16+11+11+12) = 50

Then there is the Hot Air or to be topical Global Warming rankings. Found by adding all the posts of the players in the team together.

Here we get rankings of:

Devas (2513+1615+109+639) = 4516
ACGHHS (2983+316+286+892) = 4477
Mysterios (751+509+663+53) = 1976
Blessed Ones (354+88+25+40) = 507

As Global warming is sometimes considered a contentious subject there is always the noise index. Found by dividing total team posts by total months on the board.

Noise Index rankings are:

Devas 4516/105 = 43
Mysterios 1976/70 = 28
ACGHHS 4477/175 = 26
Blessed Ones 507/41 = 12

And what can we learn from these rankings (and Septs & Rdonj's)?

Well which ever way you slice it the Deva's are looking at the top of the pile ;) And it's not looking like a good idea to invest too heavily in the Blessed Ones :p

[rdonj]

Well, how much a player posts doesn't really have much to do with their skill level. Just look at you, 300 some posts to your name and one of the larger numbers of victories scored of players in the game.

Clearly what we need is a count of how many times on average each team has read their manuals to decide this close and exacting contest.



More seriously we devas certainly are a strong team. And if you say mean things about us we may have to stomp on you a little. Just don't blame us if during said stomping, hordes of jaguars and androphags creep in to molest you.

[chrispedersen]

Well, how much a player posts doesn't really have much to do with their skill level. Just look at you, 300 some posts to your name and one of the larger numbers of victories scored of players in the game.

Clearly what we need is a count of how many times on average each team has read their manuals to decide this close and exacting contest.


Ut-oh. laughing I've read my manual sooo many times the front cover, the back cover, and the first page are all torn off. Its looking very dog eared. And sadly, I have the pages for certain things.. memorized.

Castles. 40.
turn sequence 72.
Dominion. 92.

And we promise not to use jaguars on anyone the giants have stomped.

As for age... Um. my age is actually discounted quite a bit, since I played original dominions. Must confess, the demo was so good, I never bought the actual game.
My date on here was when I came back for dom2 - couldn't remember name or password = ).

Seriously, for a moment, I think you all are way overlooking micah's team. Deva's are it for raw power - but as soon as micah joined the blessed's ... it became even.

[GrudgeBringer]

LOL, Noise index is where I fit in....

I am dumber than a post in this game (although I do have 1 advantage I will keep secret,lest I end up stripped bare of any help to my team).

I am a Captain and its only because since I don't understand a lot of things I have to ask so many dang questions.

I honestly rank myself about a Private and 1/2.

But beware of my ONE measly attribute,as it can sneak up on you!!!:p

[Immaculate]

I got an e-mail saying my Noobs and Vets turn was ready and there was a .trn attachment.
So, i created a folder for it and tried to play it but its not in the list of games. Do i have to change its name to whatever.2h?

EDIT: happy halloween

[Frozen Lama]

I can't seem to look at my turn. it says i need to install better_independents_v2-1_g.dm

I've downloaded the mod in the origional post and all. is there some kind of renaming change needed?

[DrPraetorious]

I can play my turn just fine, however... it's for Lanka, rather than Niefelheim.

My turn arrived as a zip file, by the way - so, you may need to unzip the turn before you can play it (do not change the extension, it should be .trn.)

[Gandalf Parker]

Oops. Buncha people got Lanka. My error
Thats what I get for rushing things.

The procedure would be
make a directory for the game in dominions3/savedgames
put turn file there
open the game

(I never did figure out why pbem is supposed to be easier)

Gandalf Parker

[Frozen Lama]

and as to my mod problem?

[Immaculate]

and as to my mod problem?

Same problem here.

[Gandalf Parker]

The mod must be named the same. The game was created with
better_independents_v2-1_g.dm

it must be in the dominions3/mods directory

[Illuminated One]

I managed to get it started but I have Lanka.
Not that I mind lankaing everyone, though.

[Gandalf Parker]

I thought I sent out new ones. OK I will do that again

[Frozen Lama]

GP- i'm sorry but your not being helpful. I have the mod that's in the OP and its inside C:\Program Files\dominions3\mods\better_independents_v2-1_updated(2)

inside that folder is better_independents_v2-1_g.dm

but then i get the message saying i need to install better_independents_v2-1_g.dm

do i need to bring it out of mods\better_independents_v2-1_updated(2)
into just mods folder?

[Illuminated One]

Yes.

edit: (also the folder with the image must be directly in the mod folder).

[Gandalf Parker]

The .dm file needs to be in just the dominions3/mods folder.
That is true of all mods. The game is going to look for the .dm in the mods directory.

It MIGHT refer to more graphics and such for its mod, which can be in a subdirectory named the same as the mod. In this case that is optional and not needed for doing a turn. Just have the .dm in the mods directory

[GrudgeBringer]

I got NO turn at all.......

[Gandalf Parker]

@GrudgeBringer:
for your team the captain requested they all be sent to him. That is what was on the list of email addresses I got from Septimius

[Frozen Lama]

ok got it to work thanks.

[Septimius Severus]

Sorry, I've been away most of the day, thanks to Gandalf for helping sort things out. Anyone having any more issues? Chris requested that all the ACGHHS turns be sent to him. If you'd like something else let me know.

[GrudgeBringer]

K, Thanks...

[Maerlande]

I got my turn 3 times today. I completed and sent it back to the same address. Was that the right thing to do?

[Septimius Severus]

Me too, in those cases I usually use the last one I get in case of any issues. Never played PBEM or direct connect on Gandalf's Server, so I am assuming that is correct. Gandalf can chime in but I would think we'd all submit our 2h files to:

nav@dom3minions.com

Gandalf, anything needed in the subject line? I am guessing no, since there was no subject when sent.
Can Chris team send them in on their own or must they route them back to Chris?

[Gandalf Parker]

Yes. Sorry for the multiple sends.
So far Ive received 3 peoples turns

[Septimius Severus]

I've updated the opening post with the server address you need to send in your .2h files to, just in case you delete the original e-mail.

Reminder:

All delay/substitution requests should be be sent to me or Melnorjr first.

32 hour host (quickhost) till turn 10 (as per the opening post).

I hope no one looked at Lanka's turn, was hoping to keep a little surprise for a short time anyway.

Good luck teams.

[Septimius Severus]

Now what were we talking about? oh yes, we were setting odds/gambling on which team is most likely to win.

Though the Blessed Ones have the least chance of winning according to our guestimates, I would put my gold :money: on their team since the payoff would be greatest. They've got the hunger (at least I hope they do), the fire in the belly that could make all the difference, not to mention being advised my Micah who some consider one of the best players around.

AlgeNymph: The courageous, talented, and brash Captain
Immaculate: AlgaeNymph's second in command is full of energy
RabbitDynamite: Fresh and spirited, the name alone sounds like this player could be explosive
Viccio: Experienced in cooperative play, stalwart and dependable

Their nations: well I want to encourage teams to follow a common theme (in upcoming games) and sort of concentrate on one or two magics paths, attributes and so forth rather than trying to cover all the bases as it were. Makes for a more interesting game to watch and leads to less contention in nation selection.

The gurus who write the guides say that T'ien Chi' is a really good nation, especially in the hands of experts/vets. Excellent unit and magical variety I believe.

Vanheim, I think even in EA has that shapeshifter stuff which sorta gives them the equivalent hit points of a giant due to the second form. Don't know about the other ones.

Are they blessed :angel or are they cursed :evil: ? We shall see.

[AlgaeNymph]

I want to encourage teams to follow a common theme (in upcoming games) and sort of concentrate on one or two magics paths, attributes and so forth rather than trying to cover all the bases as it were. Makes for a more interesting game to watch and leads to less contention in nation selection.Good to see I was inspiring. :)

[pyg]

Based on fairly limited past experience using llamaserver.net I was wondering about a couple of things regarding dom3minions.com PBEM: 1) can we submit revised .2h files 2) Is there some sort of status page that we can see?

Thanks!

[viccio]

I've a problem "the following mod needs to be installed : better_independents_v2-1_g.dm"

I have installed the mod and i hae the file...

[AlgaeNymph]

I had that problem too. Download the updated version from the link in the front post.

[Septimius Severus]

Pyg, in answer to your questions:

1. Yes I would think you can send a revised turn file before the game hosts.

2. As far as Gandalf has informed me there is no front end or status page like llamaserver, though I suppose someone could write one in PHP or something.

For now, I am going to keep track of the turn number and game status using the first line in the opening post of this thread since the first few lines are visible by mousing over them from the MP menu.

Viccio, to use the mod all you really need is a single file:

better_independents_v2-1_g

This needs to be placed in the mods directory directly, not within any subdirectories.

The better independents folder and the tga file inside of it can also be placed in the mods directory but are not really necessary to use the mod and play the game.

[Hoplosternum]

For those of you who downloaded the mod and map from the post (like I did) you need to go to your mod folder and rename the file that says: better_independents_v2-1_gold to better_independents_v2-1_g i.e. you remove the 'old' bit of gold :)

Then it should work....

As far as I am aware the game does not care about the mods at all (apart from Pretender creation where there were none) except on the host machine. All the game checks is that you have the mod. It doesn't use it, unless seperate graphics are used. So you could just add an empty file called better_independents_v2-1_g.dm to the mod folder and that would work. I think :) No promises though :D

[Gandalf Parker]

Actually since the game is setup as a "user" on my server, it has its own directory, and email address, and its own webspace.
http://www.dom3minions.com/~nav/

Telling the game to create the standard stats and scores sheets when it hosts, and then moving them there is no big deal. I even considered automatically making one of them part of the email that goes out with peoples turns.

I can also come up with a "game status" CGI like Llamaserver has. I just havent needed one until now since direct-connect games provide that info and more thru the game interface.

This is some new territory for both me and Septimus. I really expected a vote to go for direct connect rather than pbem but I hadnt considered the password problem. It took me abit to reresearch the pbem codes and such so I decided not to hold up the game further by tweaking and prettyfing it all before sending out the initial turns.

Its a computer. The term "impossible" is just a technicians term meaning "we can but it might be more trouble than its worth". So dont consider anything impossible. What do you want? (dont send me direct, all requests for this game must go thru the person running the game).

Has everyone received their turns? Are people really having to unzip their turns? I chose what I thought was the best of 5 choices I had for automating the trn emails. But I can keep experimenting (seperately, not with your emails :) )

And please let me know of any quirks in the AI that are different than you expected it to be (those can be sent directly to me so you dont give away game info to other players)

[Hoplosternum]

Thanks Gandalf

Those two files are both very helpful and is all I need.

Cheers.

[Gandalf Parker]

The Dom3 program actually creates those. You can even turn them on for your own solo games.

[Hoplosternum]

The Dom3 program actually creates those. You can even turn them on for your own solo games.

Ahh I didn't know that, but how would I do that?

[rdonj]

I've played the first turn. The file came as an ordinary .2h file.

[Gandalf Parker]

Yes that is standard pbem (for those doing this the first time).
The game on the server creates .trn files (turn). And the game on your machine creates .2h files (to host). You have to email the .2h file back to the server at nav@dom3minions.com and it will male the next .trn file back to you (except the team where all turns go to the captain).

Extended Info:
This actually happens also if you play solo, or if you play direct connect. The only difference is that with those the in and out is automatically handled. Also, its a good thing to know for those wishing to work around the lack of automatic backups.

[Agema]

I don't seem to have my turn.

[AlgaeNymph]

Teams, check your starting provinces. Are the provinces surrounding your starting forts overlapping with your neighbors?

Actually, never mind. I just noticed a flaw in the map that I've overlooked. I don't think anyone wants to stop the game to make a new map on my account, so I'll do the best I can...and curse the mapmaker.

[Gandalf Parker]

The Dom3 program actually creates those. You can even turn them on for your own solo games.

Ahh I didn't know that, but how would I do that?
WinXP? Right-click your desktop icon and go Properties, Shortcut, and in the "Target" line after the quotes add --statfile --scoredump

Ive started a new thread covering this subject more fully. Look for it if you really want to play with it. Its a whole territory unto itself along with map commands and mod commands. :)

[GrudgeBringer]

Well, I see some of our team have gotton the first turn but I havn't received mine yet.

I have to admit, with all the mail I have seen on here about changing files ect, I am a little unsure if I will be able to get the game going.

However, we will see when chris gets me my turn.:up:

[Frozen Lama]

I MISS LLAMASERVER!!!! it was always so nice to me. :(

Gandalf i appreciate what your doing, but i can see a lot of confusion has resulted. i guess patience is a virtue. it WILL start soon.
*crosses fingers*

[DrPraetorious]

Gandalf, can we get a list of who has sent in their first turn, so that team captains can nag people to get moving :)?

[Gandalf Parker]

But have you ever played my server?
(not this game, I mean the direct connect ones)

[Maerlande]

I've played your server quite a bit Gandalf and it works great. Thanks for it.

[Gandalf Parker]

Gandalf, can we get a list of who has sent in their first turn, so that team captains can nag people to get moving :)?

I was going to do something like LLamas but got distracted by real world.
Here is a fast dirty one for now.
http://www.dom3minions.com/~nav/bin/nav_chk.cgi

[Septimius Severus]

Teams, check your starting provinces. Are the provinces surrounding your starting forts overlapping with your neighbors?

Actually, never mind. I just noticed a flaw in the map that I've overlooked. I don't think anyone wants to stop the game to make a new map on my account, so I'll do the best I can...and curse the mapmaker.

There were one or two instances of this, we discussed it awhile back. I was rather constrained trying to keep things mostly even and symetrical looking at the same time trying to work within the confines of this very cramped map, difficult to do sometimes, since random maps are completely uneven. You'll notice the provinces are smaller in the south, and so forth. Not that big of a deal if you coordinate with your nearest neighbor (on who get its). In one instance there is an intervening mountain province. With the larger map in the next game, it won't be an issue. So don't curse me. :)

[Septimius Severus]

I see Gandalf has been keeping you guys entertained. Gandalf, please set the hosting reminder e-mail to 9 hours. I haven't received it yet so I was wondering a bit. That was something I forgot to specify exactly.

Regarding front ends and status pages:

I'd like to be able to provide a persistent link to the scores.txt, and stats.html files, and something like that .cgi file you have supplied if we can, if you find you cannot cook up a single automatic comprehensive stat page listing scores, pretenders received, time till hosting, etc.

[Agema]

Just as a note if anyone seems to not have their turn, Gandalf reminded me to check my spam folder, and indeed, there it was.

My .2h should now be in.

[rdonj]

My apologies for the delay on the startlocations - I just pmed them to septimius.

I would like to note however, that there might be some issues with them, as one team has two instances of two of their capitols with only one intervening province, and one player has a start with 4 connecting provinces, one of them a swamp, and another player has 7 connecting provinces.(I was given what provinces to place people in, and used a random number generator to determine which team was where, so if your starting province seems unbalanced in some way, it wasn't me. :p )

This is from a post on page 35. Septimius then said that start positions had been known for over a month and no one had complained. We all definitely did have time to bring it up, but none of us did so it was really just a matter of chance who would end up in the horrible, horrible position you poor folks did. We really should have attempted to address the issue... it is going to be a bit of a pain for your team to deal with, especially if any of you with adjacent provinces need lots of resources for your capitol. My sympathies to you and your team.

[Gandalf Parker]

Just as a note if anyone seems to not have their turn, Gandalf reminded me to check my spam folder, and indeed, there it was.

My .2h should now be in.
Could you maybe send me the X-Spam-Status line from that? If you dont know how to view the hidden headers then no sweat. If I can figure out how to include a "subject" line it will probably help avoid that in the future.

[GrudgeBringer]

Ok guys, I don't have a turn and because I use Outlook express I also don't have a spam file (so it can't be in there).

I haven't heard from chris and I was wondering if the rest of our team has received the first turn since they where all e-mailed to a common address.

I am a little spooky about the technical knowledge needed to get this game going as I have said I am somewhat computer challenged.

I need to know whats going on with my team soon or I will have to withdraw.