Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI. Game Over. Team ACGHHS wins!

[Gregstrom]

From a team perspective, Machaka adds much more to the team strength than one of Eriu/Man. And they give much better Earth access than even BL (as they're not paying 25 gems for their E3, and they get to cast and forge E/F/D/N mixes). Yeah, lose Man instead. They don't do much that Eriu doesn't.

[chrispedersen]

Yup, otherwise they'd be in real trouble. Why drop Machaka to the AI, btw? It's not as if they're a powerhouse.

Actually, spreading dominion normally *contributes* to why mictlan is much less strong.

Usually mictlan sacrifices scales for a double blessing. Spreading dominion normally means these poor scales are propagated throughout mictlans territories, rather than through just a few.

[Squirrelloid]

Just a comment here.
Think teams, think allies for the full game, not player-vs-player. Rethink the "everyone knows" facts that are much based on one nation trying to beat all other nations in duels on small maps. Maybe reread Kristoffers description of the nation. Here is a chance to use some of the built-in features of a nation which have been ignored while allowing an ally to bolster the lacks.

Gandalf, i'm sorry, you just don't know what you're talking about here.

Vanilla Ashdod alone >> the entire arborean team. Seriously.

Seriously. Its not about duels, its what the nation can get for gold, and what the nation can do with magic. And CBM hasn't even nerfed Ashdod enough yet!

The 'built-in feature' of Man is that it has no late game. The 'built-in feature' of Eriu is it sucks - its troop line up is worthless in addition to having no late game, and being good at raiding does not win games. Seriously. Machaka at least has half a chance if it spams fever fetishes like mad...

(The only reason Man is worse than Eriu here is that Eriu at least adds something - raiding, and both would have to rely on their partners for anything resembling a late game. Something Mictlan can't really provide in MA, and Machaka has to live that long...)

[Gandalf Parker]

Well its not me talking. More of the devs. But Im sure you have your sources also.

MA Man is one of the few nations with temples for 200 gold in a game called Dominions.

The stealth ability of Eiru can be very useful in forcing enemies to spend gold differently than they had planned.

You might have a point that Mictlan and Machaka cant provide the strong frontline it would require to make good use of those. A Vet captain would have to decide that. I really havent played either one much.

[Trumanator]

The devs have clearly stated that balance was not a priority, and its not like someone needs "sources" to talk about the balance of a game they play.

MA man also doesn't benefit hardly at all from having 200g temples, since it can't blood sac and doesn't have recruit anywhere sacreds in vanilla.

Raiding doesn't win games. Sure you can take all his nonfort provs, but that won't stop him marching his army to your forts and reducing them one by one. Not to mention that if he has astral your thugs are going to die horrible solitary deaths one by one.

[chrispedersen]

Arboreans (nature/earth): Man, Eriu, Mictlan, Machaka.
Sanguinarium (blood): Pangaea, Jotunheim, Abysia, Vanheim.
Supplicants of Set (death): Ermor, Shinuyama, C'tis, Ashdod.
Usurpers (astral): Pythium, Bandar Log, R'lyeh, Arco.

More or less I would rate this 16 nations:

1. Ashdod
2. Ermor
3. Pythium
4. R'lyeh
5. Jotunheim
6. Shinuyama
7. Vanheim
8. Arco
9. Ctis
10. Bandar Log
11. Pangaea
12. Mictlan
13. Abysia
14. Machaka
15 Eriu
16. Man

So set averages a 4.5
Astral, 6.25
Sanguinarium a 9
and aborium a whopping 14.25.

You would do better to add cold nations into the sanguinarium to boost their strengths.

[Gandalf Parker]

Its not balance to use it for its designed purpose. And it doesnt have to win games in team play. At least you arent discounting its use completely. But I would have to admit that Sanguinarium make my argument much better than the Arboreans.

[Trumanator]

Its not balance to use it for its designed purpose. And it doesnt have to win games in team play. At least you arent discounting its use completely. But I would have to admit that Sanguinarium make my argument much better than the Arboreans.

A few more proper nouns would help in making sense of this. What do you mean by all these "it"s? What argument does sanguinariam prove?

[Gandalf Parker]

I know some are newer players and havent played a variety of games. But Im hoping that someone is looking at a team whole made up of the parts rather than separately. If you were to assign team positions for some other sport, how would you assign them?

[Trumanator]

You blabber on about how we need to look for team synergies, but the entire point that squirrelloid and ChrisP made is that there IS no team synergy, particularly with the Arboriums. Grouping by paths is if anything worse for creating team synergies.

[Gandalf Parker]

*sigh* Jotunhim and Abysia providing front line defense, Pangaea with flying scouts, both Pangaea and Vanheim able to slip full armies thru their frontline guardians. Not to mention standard harassment techniques. As often as I see complaints that the game doesnt do anything to properly support alliances such as safe passage thru allied territory and here is a great chance to do alliances right with Sanguin team.

But I agree that grouping by paths is a problem. Id have gone with things like human & giant, non-humans, water, anything that would have scattered the magic paths abit.

[chrispedersen]

Gandalf,

I do look at team synergies very carefully. For example in this game I took arco, as I consider them to be the premier researcher, with the possible exception of bogarus.

I took Pangeae for a similar team niche.

But that being said, there really is no redeeming values for arbor. There are no capitalizable strengths, except perhaps that ALL their mages suck so bad you might as well take drain 3.

[Septimius Severus]

Nice wagering and input from all concerned. Of course that particular matchup is one of many possible combinations. In the preview of game 2, the full list of recommended/suggested nations (and pretenders) for each team are ordered by native casting ability in Nature (secondarily Earth), Blood, Death, and Astral.

Looking at the nations one does see commonalities and common themes which make grouping teams by them certainly possible and quite interesting. I know I will have fun watching these forces go at each other. A lot of fun! :D And this fiendish delight will be increased by each team not having the same "toolkit" as it were, to work with. For the Arboreans, all of the following MA nations have native nature mages (not just random picks):

Pangaea, Man, Eriu, Mictlan, Machaka, C'tis, Bandar Log,
Shinuyama, T'ien Chi'.

Arboreans also have a good bless in that the nature and earth blesses are supposedly the most useful.

Also interesting is the common theme that emerges and that is embodied in the team proposed for game 3, Collegium Arcanum. Some nations, such as T'ien Chi', Arco, and Shinuyama are so diverse and versatile in their spell casting ability that they fit the Collegium's rainbow theme quite nicely. Aside from the rainbow pretenders, there are SC pretenders with native casting ability in 3 and sometimes 4 different paths.

There are many possibilities to explore the full worth of each and every nation and many ways to enjoy the game, which is probably what Gandalf was speaking about. Playing blood only games (or other path based games) and role playing is one such way. I'm not an expert on nature magic, but I'd imagine in the hands of those who know how to use it best, it can be quite effective. Even those nature tunes/songs are useful.

Keep in mind that unless I specify exactly which nations are available to each team (pre-set the nations), the team theme can be met by any combination of nation or pretender choice. So there's plenty of flexibility.

Of course one can group by other things (excluding water nations), if someone can come up with 4 common themes that aptly describe them and their associated pretenders, be my guest. Go through all the MA nations and pretenders and tell me what you come up with. How many giant nations are there in MA? What size level = giant, 3, 4, 5, 6? Are there not problems with Hinnom and Ashdod on the same team as it stands? How many "human" nations are there?

Again, it is for fun, and for those who wish to role play a bit. Thanks for all the responses, keep em coming.

[Septimius Severus]

I'm bumping up the current hosting interval from 56 to 64 hours. We will still have our regular poll when we reach turn 50, where you'll have another chance to increase/decrease that 64. I'm doing this in lieu of a poll (consensus is normally required) as it is clear at least some people need more time and in an attempt to forestall more 24 hour delay requests.

Team note: Agema has resumed the captaincy of the Mysterios and responsibility for playing Lanka.

[Squirrelloid]

Look, here's how game 2 is going to play out with those teams: Ashdod and Ermor are going to be the 'front line' of the Set team, deployed both to one side. They're going to choose another team and kill them, all of them, by turn 25 (some minor fort sieges may still apply!). Then they're going to move onto the next team. In the meantime, Shinuyama starts summoning tarts around turn 25 while being fed all the relevant artifacts by C'tis.

They're just going to ignore the AI. Why bother fighting them? It'll distract everyone else while they kill real players. And since the AI will be 'improved', not fighting it will save a lot of team resources.

(in particular, ideal deployment involves Ashdod up front, Shinuyama guarding one flank, Ermor on the other flank, and C'tis protected in the back - attack direction will be towards whichever side Ermor is on. I assume MA C'tis gets recruit-anywhere for its best mage, so it'll be a great research rusher, as is Shinuyama with Bakemono Sorcerors. I'm tempted to say Ermor should run really research light for quite awhile to maximize reanimation, but it will need enough Thaum for gateway to ferry reinforcements to strategic labs. And ideally, they want to hit the astral team first since they'll be the strongest later, and killing them early will remove the threat - possibly just bypassing Rlyeh if it's too annoying to kill, although i imagine hordes of undead might do the trick.)

-------------

The first thing I'd do is ban Ashdod. They are not suitable for MP games, especially not in vanilla.

The second thing I'd do is let teams create their own theme. Everything is justifiable post hoc as a 'theme', and it lets teams choose nations that actually work well together rather than pre-chosen themes that end up with good teams and bad teams.

[Septimius Severus]

Chris and Squirrel and anyone else who may have an issue with the path based teams/themes as proposed, the important thing to remember here is that these teams/themes are what you the players chose! They are the WINNERS!

For those of you who may not know or remember, there were 2 polls conducted on our team forums where I gave players 20 possible options for team groupings and themes. Some included giants, some were based on animal only nations, etc. Players were also encouraged to add any ideas they had.

There were 52 votes received in total. Guess which teams/themes got the most votes?

The Arboreans and the Sanguinarium got 6 votes each.
The Supplicants and Usurpers got 5 votes each.

People voted down most of the non-path based options and no one bothered to put forth any other suggestions.

So my friends, you see, I am simply following through on the will of the players here and implementing their most popular choices.

Teams will still have their ranked lists (which is why I tend to resist pre-set nations) and can meet the theme via nation or pretender choice. So they've got choice and options. You also have your choice of which team to join.

The whole idea is foster a common identity and get people into character and a team mind set. So this therefore is the most important reason why I am doing this the way I am, because you chose it. It'd be nice if players really get into this and have fun with it, instead of playing games that are more of just the same, that follow that ultra competitive, narrow minded, mindset. I want each team to have their own exclusive "toolkit", there own path to victory. But the option is there for teams to tailor things as they see fit, if they don't wish to role play.

As for the AI team, well you ignore the AI team and the advantage their territory can give your team at your own peril. People didn't ignore their importance this game, and I don't think people will do so next game. Their theme and nations, if Gandalf wishes to find one for them, will be chosen as usual from the dregs.

[pyg]

People voted down most of the non-path based options and no one bothered to put forth any other suggestions.


In an attempt to do something constructive with this tangent I would like to suggest that people with strong opinions submit for critique four teams of four [MA] that are balanced and that hopefully have some thematical similarity.

[GrudgeBringer]

Says the guy who won his first battle EVER in this game (puffed out chest)!!!:p

[Septimius Severus]

People voted down most of the non-path based options and no one bothered to put forth any other suggestions.


In an attempt to do something constructive with this tangent I would like to suggest that people with strong opinions submit for critique four teams of four [MA] that are balanced and that hopefully have some thematical similarity.

Ha yes! And do make it thematic and such that a team's strengths are not duplicated by another team. And also while your at it, maybe some appropriately themed pretender suggestions and some appropriately themed nations as backups (in the case of ranked lists), and some graphics/icons I can use to go with them. Do that and we will ignore the player poll and throw out all the other work I've done. :rolleyes:;)

[chrispedersen]

Chris and Squirrel and anyone else who may have an issue with the path based teams/themes as proposed, the important thing to remember here is that these teams/themes are what you the players chose! They are the WINNERS!

For those of you who may not know or remember, there were 2 polls conducted on our team forums where I gave players 20 possible options for team groupings and themes. Some included giants, some were based on animal only nations, etc. Players were also encouraged to add any ideas they had.

There were 52 votes received in total. Guess which teams/themes got the most votes?

The Arboreans and the Sanguinarium got 6 votes each.
The Supplicants and Usurpers got 5 votes each.

People voted down most of the non-path based options and no one bothered to put forth any other suggestions.

So my friends, you see, I am simply following through on the will of the players here and implementing their most popular choices.

Teams will still have their ranked lists (which is why I tend to resist pre-set nations) and can meet the theme via nation or pretender choice. So they've got choice and options. You also have your choice of which team to join.

The whole idea is foster a common identity and get people into character and a team mind set. So this therefore is the most important reason why I am doing this the way I am, because you chose it. It'd be nice if players really get into this and have fun with it, instead of playing games that are more of just the same, that follow that ultra competitive, narrow minded, mindset. I want each team to have their own exclusive "toolkit", there own path to victory. But the option is there for teams to tailor things as they see fit, if they don't wish to role play.

As for the AI team, well you ignore the AI team and the advantage their territory can give your team at your own peril. People didn't ignore their importance this game, and I don't think people will do so next game. Their theme and nations, if Gandalf wishes to find one for them, will be chosen as usual from the dregs.


I don't recall voting for nations. I recall voting for names.
(ie, sanguinarium which is what I voted for). I think the problem is not the name, but rather the implimentation.

I am still not opposed to the idea of using the teams as you outlined them. (with the exception of ashdod, which I think is simply to broke to live in MP-teams). However, I think you will need some method to handicap.

Suggestions: vast amounts of forest... Ie.. 80%? Extra forts for the arborealists... a Point bid system - where high bidders choose the team - and then lose the number of points bid from pretender construction.

For example, as constitued I would EASILY bid 120 points to play the ashdod team.

[Septimius Severus]

I don't recall voting for nations. I recall voting for names.
(ie, sanguinarium which is what I voted for). I think the problem is not the name, but rather the implimentation.

The two polls that were conducted were for team name and associated theme (Blood, Death, Astral, Nature, animal nations, giant nations, nations with flying units, etc.), not necessarily specific nations.


I am still not opposed to the idea of using the teams as you outlined them. (with the exception of ashdod, which I think is simply to broke to live in MP-teams). However, I think you will need some method to handicap.

I haven't decided to go with pre-set nations for each team. What I provided in the previous post was a hypothetical matchup. All I've done (in the preview file) and all I will do most likely is to provide each team with a list of recommended nations and pretenders that most fit the theme. Thus, I've provided the basis of what each team's ranked list might look like, but the order and priority is up to each team. One may meet the theme by nation or pretender choice. I would like players to do both, but at this point, I am not forcing any team who doesn't want to play along to do both.


Suggestions: vast amounts of forest... Ie.. 80%? Extra forts for the arborealists... a Point bid system - where high bidders choose the team - and then lose the number of points bid from pretender construction.

For example, as constitued I would EASILY bid 120 points to play the ashdod team.

As always I appreciate suggestions and comments and may incorporate them or not. The map has already been created, as have the starting locations, a preview of which was already published on the thread. It's in there among the thousand other posts. :D

[Squirrelloid]

The whole idea is foster a common identity and get people into character and a team mind set. So this therefore is the most important reason why I am doing this the way I am, because you chose it. It'd be nice if players really get into this and have fun with it, instead of playing games that are more of just the same, that follow that ultra competitive, narrow minded, mindset. I want each team to have their own exclusive "toolkit", there own path to victory. But the option is there for teams to tailor things as they see fit, if they don't wish to role play.

This sounds really nice in theory, but it overlooks some rather important facts. Namely, nature magic doesn't offer a path to victory. At all.

There are four strategies that work in endgame: tarts, wish, angels, blood. That's it. Tarts are by far the most efficient, but clams make wish spam possibly competitive. And blood eschews efficiency because slaves are cheap. Most nations are going to access angels via wish, so we can collapse that down to 3 real options.

So, of those options, we'll note 1 death, 1 astral, and 1 blood.

Then we note that blood magic is really weak in MA overall, making the blood route much less appealing. And since everyone clams, and tarts aren't notably vulnerable to armageddon, tart spam will rule the game, especially since the death nations are already otherwise strong!

Hence death team > astral team > blood team, and that's just endgame. You'll note the death team also has an amazingly strong early and mid game.

So what does nature do? Other than die I mean. I can't see any real options. Their early game is pretty bad (mictlan is the only one with a good early game, Man's is ok, the other two suck). Their mid game is craptastic in vanilla (machaka might have the best one of them, but with dragonmaster at a ridiculous Ench 8 the usual fever fetish spam -> fire drake spam doesn't work quite so well, and Eriu raiders come online - but there's no muscle to back them up on the entire team). And their late game is nonexistent. No, seriously, they have absolutely nothing going on.

---------
If you must go with pre-set teams, these are better (although not perfect by any means):

Twilight of the Empire: Pythium, Ermor, C'tis, Arcocephale

Barbarians at the Gates: Marignon, Vanheim, Jotunheim, (Ulm/Man)

Partha Reborn: Caelum, Abysia, Bandar Log, Agartha? (or I suppose Machaka, but its not as nice a fit. Ashdod *could* go here, if they were remotely balanced for play.)

The Golden Horde: TC, Shinuyama, Pangaea (representing wild areas north or east of the black sea), ??? (Eriu would be ok, if not entirely thematic. Could justify Mictlan by arguing our mythical china was the first to discover the new world.)

Yes, that was entirely geographic. Its also remarkably closer to being balanced. Partha Reborn might be a little weak, and Twilight of the Empire might be a little strong, but it isn't nearly as overwhelming.

[13lackGu4rd]

Squirrelloid, if you wish to divide it Geographically into 4 teams than I have an alternative for you:

Central Europe: Arco(Greece), Ermor(Rome), Ulm(Germany), Pythium(Byzantines)

Northern Europe: Eriu(Ireland), Man(England), Jotunheim(Norse), Vanheim(Norse)

Middle East: Ashdod(Israel), C'tis(Egypt), Pangaea(Iran?), Marignon(Turkey?)

Far Asia: Shinuyama(Japan), TC(China), Bandar Log(India), Mictlan(supposed to be Aztecs, so Mexico, but as far as Dominions go it's closer to the real "Asian" nations).

not really sure about the Middle East team, I stretched it a bit in there. also Ashdod is considered "OP", however the other nations on its team are rather underpowered so it should somewhat balance itself out. this team still does have potential through to the late game so it's not hopeless for all but Ashdod.

also these teams seem to be more diverse as far as magic go, and also relatively balanced Imho.

[Squirrelloid]

Squirrelloid, if you wish to divide it Geographically into 4 teams than I have an alternative for you:

Central Europe: Arco(Greece), Ermor(Rome), Ulm(Germany), Pythium(Byzantines)

Northern Europe: Eriu(Ireland), Man(England), Jotunheim(Norse), Vanheim(Norse)

Middle East: Ashdod(Israel), C'tis(Egypt), Pangaea(Iran?), Marignon(Turkey?)

Far Asia: Shinuyama(Japan), TC(China), Bandar Log(India), Mictlan(supposed to be Aztecs, so Mexico, but as far as Dominions go it's closer to the real "Asian" nations).

not really sure about the Middle East team, I stretched it a bit in there. also Ashdod is considered "OP", however the other nations on its team are rather underpowered so it should somewhat balance itself out. this team still does have potential through to the late game so it's not hopeless for all but Ashdod.

also these teams seem to be more diverse as far as magic go, and also relatively balanced Imho.

Classically, the mediterranean was a unifying feature (note expansion of the Roman Empire, which I use as one of my groupings), and Egypt had far more in common with Rome than it did with, say, Persia.

Caelum is based on zoroastrian beliefs, and is thus persian. Throw in Babylon (Abysia), and (Northwest) India (BL) and you have a fair representation of the Persian empire circa Darius II. Agartha seems suitable thematically because of all the mountains.

Also, Marignon is France/Spain. Isn't it painfully obvious? Pangaea is unspecified wilderness, presumably at the edge of greek wanderings (hence my placing it north of the Black Sea)

In the timeframe i chose, there were no 'germans' or 'english'. There were goths and celts (marignon, ulm, man, etc...), there was the roman empire in decline (incl. egypt, greece, italy, byzantium), there was Partha in the east centered in modern day Iran, and then the far east. This timeframe aligns with the MA nations passably well (ie, MA Ermor is clearly the Roman Empire in decline).

Despite being 'asian', there's no historical reason to put an Indian nation on the same team as a chinese or japanese nation. None. Trade was predominantly through Persian or the 'middle east' (actually called the near east until ~19th century) until the mongols. The chinese trade with the west went by way of the silk road - ie, across the steppes and north of the himalayas.

[rdonj]

Squirrel, I think you may be overthinking this a little ;). If you want to come up with geographically based teams, that's fine. If you want to come up with politically based teams, that's fine. But this really doesn't need to be absolutely 100% historically accurate. All we really need are plausible reasons for having nations on the same team.

[13lackGu4rd]

well, didn't know Caelum was based on Zoroastrianism, still don't understand it since Zoroastrianism revolves around the sacred fire and Caelum is well, a Lightning nation... also didn't know that Abysia is supposed to represent Babylonia(again, how exactly...? :o).

now that you mention it, Marignon does fit better with France/Spain with the inquisitors and all, for some reason when I thought about "breaking from the Falling Roman Empire" I thought about the Byzantine era instead of classical Rome, hence my guess of Turkey and the Inquisitors in this case being the Muslims hunting down Christians(in Armenia and the Levante, against the Crusades).

and yes, India doesn't really fit with Japan and China, nor do the Aztecs for that matter ;) but since I didn't(and still don't quite understand) that Caelum and Abysia are supposed to represent the Mesopotamian area as well...

also time frames in Dominions are painfully mixed up as it is, so limiting it to both geography and time lines seems like a stretch. for example TC Imperial Bureaucracy refers mainly to the Tang-Sung Dynasties which will be around the 7th-12th centuries, a bit after the Roman empire, while in the time of France and England, and way ahead of the Persians. Shinuyama is ugh... Japanese Mythology perhaps? I'm not really sure, but seems more ancient than modern Imho... Bandar Log on the other hand(along with Kailasa, Lanka, and Patala, and any other monkey nation if I forgot any) already have a built in caste system, which was started by the British in the 19th century... however its roots are delved from the Vedas, which is ancient India...

[rdonj]

Arcomictpan... 2 hours from staling.

[chrispedersen]

Bleh. you know the easiest slay of all....
is trying to get 3 turns in in 2 hours.

bleh.

edit: yep. that was painful.

[Septimius Severus]

Well, squirrel, I've noticed your having access to Tartarians hasn't helped your team much against the Deva's. If it is the path to victory, I haven't seen it yet. In fact I might say that exploiting the Mysterios and Blessed might be ACGHHS true path to victory in this game.

I do have a soft spot for history, and the dominions nations are based loosely on it. Dominions seems to mix elements of fantasy with games like Rome Total War. The game also reminds me a little of an old SSG or SSI game called Warlords? Anyone remember it?

As I said, haven't said I will go with pre-set teams (why does that notion seem to stick in some players heads?). Your suggestion regarding geographic themes doesn't really satisfy my desire for specific team strengths and weaknesses as much the path based option. It also means pre-set nations, which reduces choice and freedom.

Most newer players don't necessarily play the way some veterans might, and not everyone plays the way you might. For them and for me it is exploring the game and the possibilites. And doing things that reduce the fun of the game to hoarding, or other such things, I just don't see the need.

Most of my games have never made it to late game anyway and are geared towards noobs. The veterans sole purpose in the games is to teach the noobs about the game in its entirety not just specific strategies that may apply to an endgame scenario which might never happen if teams are eliminated before then.

Of course if you wish to start a game that caters to the dueling crowd and/or some vets and the strategies they use, using those geographic themes you certainly can do so. There is so much more to the game than that in my opinion.

Regarding banning any nations, well have I ever banned a nation? That should give you your answer. If we were using the multi-age mod (a possibility I am looking into), yes I might consider it, as it stands, moving from one age to another to keep things simple, the most I might be persuaded to do is reserve Ashdod for the AI.

[chrispedersen]

I would think monkeys belong in trees.

And of course, having the markata would instantly render the teams fair.

[Septimius Severus]

If players didn't like the idea behind the Arboreans (nature and earth), why vote it so highly? :confused:

Bringing in one of the other voted themes might rectify a critic or two (such as the Magisterium, whose focus is on nations with multiple high level priests which probably cuts across many paths, have to look into it) though I am sort of saving the other highly voted choices for game 3, trying to avoid as many conflicts as I can. With the power of Collegium Arcanum, and the evil of Regnum Inferorum (reminds me, I need to add a fire path to them), a divine theme sounds best in game 3. :D

[Illuminated One]

And the hawks of Formoria fell upon the hawks of Caelum but the hawks of Caelum valiantly gave battle and scattered them like chaff before the wind.
And then the hawks, a dozen and a half of number, went through the province and slew whoever they found in revenge. On this day the heads were counted to be more than 2000 (it was a markata province, ok?).
May this serve as an omen for the time to come when numbers will no longer avail the forces of darkness. Pray that this time is now, oh brethren.

[Gregstrom]

If players didn't like the idea behind the Arboreans (nature and earth), why vote it so highly? :confused:


The proposed lineup didn't help. Only 1 of the 4 'nature/earth' nations actually had E access. Two of them being Man and Eriu banged a bunch more nails in the coffin.

Pan/Machaka/C'tis/one from Agartha/Man/Eriu/Ulm/Mictlan sounds like a less obvious fail.

[rdonj]

If players didn't like the idea behind the Arboreans (nature and earth), why vote it so highly? :confused:


The proposed lineup didn't help. Only 1 of the 4 'nature/earth' nations actually had E access. Two of them being Man and Eriu banged a bunch more nails in the coffin.

Pan/Machaka/C'tis/one from Agartha/Man/Eriu/Ulm/Mictlan sounds like a less obvious fail.

Yeah, this could work.

[rdonj]

Well, squirrel, I've noticed your having access to Tartarians hasn't helped your team much against the Deva's. If it is the path to victory, I haven't seen it yet. In fact I might say that exploiting the Mysterios and Blessed might be ACGHHS true path to victory in this game.

Currently the Tartarians are not doing a whole lot, no. Sauro has this one equipped with armor of virtue that's continually bombing DrP's solar brilliance army with rain of stones to kill off the lesser communion slaves, likely in preparation for some sort of attack from mictlan's huge jaguar warrior army. Other than this we so far haven't been hit with any tarts. Tartarians are quite powerful, but certainly no instant win button. The other two teams have certainly caused far more damage as of yet than the tartarian mad bomber, but when they get their numbers up a bit it they may be able to start hurting our (largely SC-dominated) armies. Definitely though, the mysterios and the blessed ones have been a thorn in our sides for some turns now. And after we showed mercy on you earlier, hmmph. Your team in particular has actually expended much more of its power against us than the ACGHHS have. ACGHHS is sort of just kicking along, slowly bringing its guns to bear. Whereas the mysterios are rushing caelum in an all out blitz :p

In vague relation: The king is dead! Long live the king(slayer)! The lands of ulm are safe once more.

[Squirrelloid]

Well, squirrel, I've noticed your having access to Tartarians hasn't helped your team much against the Deva's. If it is the path to victory, I haven't seen it yet. In fact I might say that exploiting the Mysterios and Blessed might be ACGHHS true path to victory in this game.

Yes, well, tarts are more effective when you can persuade your teammates to pass you gear. We also have really weird gem distribution, which certainly hasn't helped.

I'll note that I have to bludgeon my way through Niefl's army of doom to do any damage, so not only would I like what useful tarts I have to be geared (blah), I'm also going to need them in useful quantity to bludgeon a bunch of Niefl Jarls to death.

I will also point out we're hardly in lategame. Not even close. I had tarts early, and I'm still ramping up critical mass =)


Of course if you wish to start a game that caters to the dueling crowd...

Ok, sept, wth. There is no 'dueling' crowd. A duel is a 1 on 1 game, they are virtually non-existent. Almost nobody duels, at least on these forums, and the rare few that happen feature people who also play MP games. Gandalf loves to throw that term around and it means absolutely nothing. That it is without applicable meaning in general is clearly a problem of conception on your and his part. That it is devoid of meaning to me means you are totally failing to communicate whatever it is you're trying to say.

My comments on lategame certainly apply to *any* MP game that lasts long enough for someone to cast Wish. And I did not mean those were the only things that saw play, just that they were the dominant strategic considerations. (I mean, if you can throw large numbers of tarts around, you can also do plenty of other things as well. But the fact that you have lots of tarts to throw around is a dominant strategic consideration both for you and your opponents).

[Stagger Lee]

Algae - 6 minutes to get your turn in? If we were all so efficient we'd already be playing the next installment! ;)

[Septimius Severus]

The proposed lineup didn't help. Only 1 of the 4 'nature/earth' nations actually had E access. Two of them being Man and Eriu banged a bunch more nails in the coffin.


That's because the main thematic path of the Arboreans (and hence the name) is nature, earth is a secondary path. Was also thinking of nations that with the least conflict between teams ranked lists. But as I say, I most likely don't intend to pick nations for teams, takes the fun and choice away from players and captains.


My comments on lategame certainly apply to *any* MP game that lasts long enough for someone to cast Wish. And I did not mean those were the only things that saw play, just that they were the dominant strategic considerations. (I mean, if you can throw large numbers of tarts around, you can also do plenty of other things as well. But the fact that you have lots of tarts to throw around is a dominant strategic consideration both for you and your opponents).

Yes, i've no doubt Tartarians can be a major consideration in the end game, I suppose having 3 powerful and well led teams ally against you could be another major strategic consideration (and can happen with open diplomacy). There also those other high level summons and elemental royalty. There's also player skill level, team coordination, and a hundred other things. My point is the game is so much, much more.

Veteran and intermediate players in this series play a service role really. It is certainly nice to see players with an intense love of the game such as yourself. Hope that love is just not narrowly focused and I hope that is not what the whole game boils down to.


In vague relation: The king is dead! Long live the king(slayer)! The lands of ulm are safe once more.

Well, I'm sort of spent playing 3 nations, hopefully this will be the last turn of that. It will be time for me to relax soon. The lands of ulm may be free but unrest abounds. The Ulmish people are upset (wonder why). The kingslayer will soon meet his match when Fomoria returns to Ulm.;)

[Septimius Severus]

Recently, I had a chance to sit down with Micah, team advisor for The Blessed Ones, Hall of Fame member, and Dom3 champion extraordinare. Micah was kind enough to take some time from his busy schedule to answer a few questions for us.

SS: Micah, everyone is grateful to you for stepping in and at least trying to help the Blessed Ones whenever you have had the chance. And I'm sure the Blessed Ones have been blessed to have any help they could. Tell me, what qualities do you think a good team advisor should possess? And do you think having you as their advisor (or anyone for that matter) has been beneficial to the Captain and members of the Blessed Ones?

Micah: I don't know, seems like a team adviser should possess the quality of being team captain. Not playing the game makes it difficult to keep up with the situation, and not having any decision-making capability is frustrating. I suppose a general knowledge of the game is helpful, but the role of the position is very vague, so the qualifications are as well. You should ask my team how helpful I've been, they're the ones that have seen how things worked out, if I didn't think my advice was helpful I wouldn't have given it.

SS: Have you found the position of team adviser difficult or challenging in any way? And if so how?

Micah: Caring enough to give good advice but not caring enough to actually join the game is a difficult line. Also, my team has chosen to disregard some of my advice, which is quite frustrating.

SS: On a scale of 1-10, (10 being most likely) how likely do you rate your team's chances at winning?

Micah: 1.

SS: Thanks for your time, you are a wonderful asset to the community and I am sure everyone appreciates your efforts.

[rdonj]

That's okay, it would be hard for him not to being blind and all. He's passing on the torch to another generation of kingslayer, and will be put to work elsewhere. The new kingslayer will be equipped slightly more sensibly, as some of the gear on the old one was kind of bad.

That's kind of rough playing 3 nations simultaneously. I guess on the bright side, you don't have to wait for a lot of commentary from the rest of your team. :D

[Septimius Severus]

Caelum, love is in the air. Can't you feel it? Don't fight this feeling. Order your mages into melee combat and give retreat orders to the rest of your fluttering flunkies.

Two of your castles are under siege again, your troops are battle weary, and your population cries out for peace and an end to the violence. Even your dead have no taste for war. Will you not give them the peace they so ardently desire?

Or would you rather they find this peace in the grave? :D

[pyg]

Hello, I'd like to introduce the Easy-Slay(TM) product Tele-Melqart, affectionately known as Dial-o-Death. If you need Easy-Slay(TM) services quickly but have been unable to find a suitable solution, we can create a custom package to satisfy the most demanding specification. To acquire our new Tele-Melqart service all you have to do is exist. By simply existing we will tailor a package to satisfy your every Easy-Slay(TM) need and deliver it promptly.

Some of our customers have experienced problems with the Easy-Slay(TM) product Tele-Melqart. All models are now under recall and will be factory refurbished and upgraded to once again deliver our fabulous Easy-Slay(TM) services. We would like to thank our customers for their patience and helpful feedback.

[GrudgeBringer]

I have been out of town unexpectedly for a family illness.

I just got back and saw we have 9 hours left and I just happened to check in before work.

I will need at least an 18 hour extension (prreferably 24 hours) please.

[Septimius Severus]

Chris was thinking about a 12 hour extension on behalf of your team, so I'll put in 18 and if you need more time just let me know. 64+18 = 82 hours. Lets try to get em in before then if we can.

[GrudgeBringer]

I am back and will start on the turn around 5 PM Cst USA

Thank you:up:

[rdonj]

I have this feeling caelum is going to stale :(

[Squirrelloid]

I have this feeling caelum is going to stale :(

Did someone unplug his god? Because he comes well-refrigerated!

Stale Caelum... ew... next thing you know he'll be growing mold.

[chrispedersen]

Well perhaps he will get another chance.

I'd like to ask the good Dr. P. what happened in our fight.
According to the turn results, and according to the battle replay we won.

However if that is the case - why did we die, and all our artifacts disappear?

[Squirrelloid]

Chris, I don't see anything weird in *my* turn file. Unless there's another battle we won involving artifacts that I haven't looked at from a different turn file...

Edit: Watching Niefl Jarls run like little girls does make me happy.

[chrispedersen]

squirrel's right! I withdraw my objection!

[DrPraetorious]

Team Easy-slay(TM) cares!

We've listened to your complaints, chrispedersen (ticket #14E8923C: you expected to be crushed utterly and have your artifacts taken away.) Don't worry! At Easy-slay(TM) we understand that the market for crude, brutal violence is ever-changing.

That's why Easy-slay(TM) researchers are fast and work producing the merciless butchering you've come to expect.

[Septimius Severus]

Chris, you'll need to clear out your PM box if you wish to receive any communications or responses to messages you send.

Players, please refrain from any more delay requests until we can reach turn 50. We are moving extraordinarily slow. Not that it bothers me much, but I just bumped up the interval to 64 hours and you'll have another chance to add more hours when we hit turn 51. In the meantime we need to try to respect the majority who voted for the 56 hour interval as best we can.

Thanks.

[GrudgeBringer]

Again, I repeat...

Life gets in the way today, tomorrow, and forever if you have any kind of life outside this game.

If we have a player tha continually asks for an extension, then I would agree that they should perhaps bow out for the good of the community.

But with the amount of players involved, babies, grandchildren, sick parents, Internet down, computer on the fritz, and of course that evil thing called work....there WILL be times we need to have an extension.

This isn't a race for me and its supposed to be an enjoyable expieriance and stress reliever (well kinda).

But I am starting to feel like I used to feel when I was young, before I started my own companies. When I was told I would have mandatory overtime and skip lunches for projects.

If I need an extension, I will ask for it and expect it...period.

If it is too much of a hassle to give it or you feel it will slow the game down. Then YOU do my turn, or let me stale.

Geeez, all this is starting to bore me to death.

[Septimius Severus]

Grudge, if you don't agree with me, that's your right. Do what you will. I've noted your objection. There are good reasons why I am asking that delays be limited till turn 50 (not mandating), despite what you might believe.

[GrudgeBringer]

Sept,

Regardless of what you think, I am NOT disagreeing with you. This is your game and keeping it on a straight line is imperative I think. And in that respect I not only agree with you, but think you are doing a great job.

MY problem isn't with your encouragement to keep the game moving (that's your job in this game, among others and I respect it).

My problem was with the statement that we shouldn't/couldn't have any MORE extensions. I have never asked for one before (and you gave it to me when I did, thank you), But with life being so unpredictable, knowing that there are no more extensions or at best frowned upon, takes the pressure of this game to a different level.

My opinion of course:up:

[rdonj]

It's just trying for an admin. No matter how long you give the players to take their turns, someone always manages to wait until the last minute to get their turn in... and then, something happens and they ask for an extension ;). I know this game has had a bit of a frantic pace for me at times, and I've been frankly terrified on a few of these turns that key people on my team wouldn't get their turns in :P.

[Agusti]

Chrispedersen, I answered your question but your private message box was full. Please, check your box and clean it.

See you.

[chrispedersen]

Hey guys... sorry I just got home from work. One hundred messages deleted. I'm really hoping that will last a day or two.

Sorry guys!

Please try again!

[rdonj]

So... I guess yomi is suiciding itself on caelum to be taken over by a stronger mysterio nation?

[Maerlande]

Interesting.

I really don't follow this thread any more, but some things just catch my eye.

From the OP:
Hosting Interval and Delays: First 10 turns @ 32 hours, 8 hours will be added every 10 turns thereafter with the maximum to be decided by consensus. Delay policy is liberal. Most delays (under 48 hrs) will be granted automatically if accompanied by a PM to the admin(s), a forum post, and a reasonable amount of notice. Alternates/subs should be utilized for longer delays.

And from a few days ago:
Players, please refrain from any more delay requests until we can reach turn 50. We are moving extraordinarily slow.

Like I posted months ago, what part of "Delay policy is liberal" is unclear??????

[Gandalf Parker]

Probably the word "liberal". From Dictionary.com or Thesaurus.com
Not strict or rigorous, broad, flexible, tolerant.
That seems to be somewhere more than usual, and short of always.

[Stagger Lee]

I guess I should have looked at the status screen. Was there something wrong with my .2h?

[Septimius Severus]

Maerlande, nice of you to stop by and care enough to add your criticism, bear in mind that the opening post is far from exhaustive and everything in it is certainly not written in stone. I had simply asked that players simply take it easy on the delay requests till we reach turn 50 for a number of reasons that are known to the players in the game.

Rdonj, the kings of Fomoria grow homesick for our adopted Ulm. We long to return and lovingly embrace your peoples once again. Prepare your people, we expect a joyous welcome.

Caelum, you've done a bad thing, breaking those seiges. But we forgive you. We will just need to put them back in place, is all. Stop molesting Kailasa.

Pyg, hello, Hinnom. Nice to meet ya.

DrP, it seems the customers of Easy-Slay around the world are upset with your product and are demanding refunds:

Fast Forward to a time in the not too distant future:

Place: The ruins of Neifelheim.

The prisoner, clad in filthy rags, bound in chains, and bearing evidence of a severe beating, is dragged up from the dungeon beneath the ruined castle Neifel. The once proud leader of the Devas is led into the wrecked throne room and thrown face first
at the feet of the victorious triumvirate of the anti-Deva freedom coalition. Sobbing uncontrollably and uttering girlish squeals, DrPraetorious ... loses ... bodily functions ... soils himself ... to be continued .... :D

[Septimius Severus]

I guess I should have looked at the status screen. Was there something wrong with my .2h?

I don't see it in the backup archive, if it was received in time, Gandalf might be able to give you more information.

[Stagger Lee]

:doh: Sorry guys. I spazzed out there. I guess I never ended the turn.

Just resent the previous one. Lucky we're not at war or anything. :angel

[rdonj]

Septimius - I think you will find ulm most welcoming of your diplomats. In fact, we expect for them to enjoy themselves so much that they stay in ulm. Permanently.

[Septimius Severus]

Septimius - I think you will find ulm most welcoming of your diplomats. In fact, we expect for them to enjoy themselves so much that they stay in ulm. Permanently.

Just having fun with some good natured trash talk. Sometimes I think in our quest to win, we forgot about just enjoying ourselves. I have learned a great deal and have had a ball. When the game ends I shall be happy either way.

[rdonj]

Yeah, nothing wrong with that. Only problem with being happy when this game is over, is that it is poised to last for quite some time still ;).

[Septimius Severus]

Yeah, nothing wrong with that. Only problem with being happy when this game is over, is that it is poised to last for quite some time still ;).

Well, seems that Arcane Nexus may well be a big step toward bringing the game to a conclusion by concession, at least that is what some are saying. Speaking of conclusion:

Though the Arboreans seem to have been voted highly, to answer some of the Arboreal detractors or competitive concerns, I propose bringing in Haleheim as an alternative theme:

Haleheim (Hale, a derivative of an old Norse term meaning hearty, strong, stout). A down to earth team with an emphasis on physical strength, arms, armor.:

Main thematic path: Earth

Secondary thematic path: Fire

Other associated themes: Seigecraft, forging

Recommended nations (in order of relevance): Ulm, Agartha, Machaka, Ashdod, Shinuyama, Vanheim.

After considering the matter, and though I don't like limited choice, I think it may be best to go with pre-set nations for game 2 for several reasons:

1. Preserves themes
2. Eliminates the whole nation selection process, saving time.
3. Let's Gandalf know which nations he has to work with in advance.

Consider the following hypothetical matchup(s) then:

Haleheim: Ulm, Agartha, Ashdod, Marginon (or less relative but very versatile Arco).

Sanguinarium: Abysia, Jotunheim, Pangaea, Vanheim.

Supplicants of Set: Ermor, Shinuyama, C'tis, Machaka.

Usurpers: Pythium, Bandar Log, Mictlan, Arco (or R'lyeh, MA R'lyeh is very thematic for this team and can be included with certain caveats).

This would leave Man, Eriu, T'ien Chi', to form the basis of a largely possibly Arboreal themed AI team.

Balance experts and others, comments, criticism, suggestions?

[rdonj]

Meh, you guys are always talking about conceding, but I don't see that happening. Your side still has tons of good stuff in the field.

The nation lists are looking pretty good this time around. So good job on that.

[DrPraetorious]

Is there a thread for us to sign up for the new game?

Ulm cannot be on the same team as either Jotunheim or (especially) Ashdod! Even if the rest of the team is made up of the weakest nations.

I agree those teams are strong thematically but still not well balanced. I'll follow up on this later.

[chrispedersen]

Nations are looking better.. but I'd REALLY like to suggest we just leave ashdod to the AI.

Plus the last team will be weak if you don't have Rlyeh (and preferably with water.)

[Squirrelloid]

I dunno, MA Ulm is really weak. Giving them Ashdod may be the only way to make them playable. =) Especially since they're also saddled with Agartha. Those are two nations (Ulm, Agartha) i wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

The astral team looks fine to me. Pythium is a powerhouse, BL has a great late game and can be protected earlier, arco is average, and that may be the worst Mictlan, but its still powerful.

[Trumanator]

MA Ulm + thug nations= insanity

[Squirrelloid]

MA Ulm + thug nations= insanity

Right, but even with cheap forgings, can Ashdod make up for Ulm's lack of contribution otherwise AND agartha's total failure to do anything?

[DrPraetorious]

I understand the thinking, but it is flawed.

MA Ulm is not actually that bad - it takes a while to get going, but magma eruption is *an* answer to *everything*.

Likewise MA Agartha - once you can actually summon the marble oracles, giving them Ulm-forged cheap equipment makes them formidable indeed.

The point is, team games tend to blunt the disadvantages of weak nations, because weak nations are mostly weak *early on*.

There are some reasonably strong nations (Machaka and Marignon, for example) which are weak in team games because they just don't contribute that much.

[Septimius Severus]

I actually agree with Squirrel on this. Ashdod is also appropriately themed for Haleheim with access to both fire and earth and a unit with a forging bonus.

If I am to take the advice of DrP and Chris regarding Ashdod, the problem is only so many nations available in MA and yet keeping the themes intact for four human teams:

Usurpers dominating Astral, Supplicants dominating Death, Haleheim dominating Earth and to a lesser extent fire, and the Sanguinarium dominating Blood and to a lesser extent Astral.

Consigning Ashdod to the AI, what do we put in its place? Since Arco is an astral power with native astral gem income, I am loathe to put them on any other team aside from the AI or the Usurpers, but they could be put on Haleheim I suppose, since they are versatile enough. Then R'lyeh must come in for the Usurpers, which is doable even on my all land map (with certain caveats). Am I missing any nations?

[Septimius Severus]

Is there a thread for us to sign up for the new game?

Ulm cannot be on the same team as either Jotunheim or (especially) Ashdod! Even if the rest of the team is made up of the weakest nations.

I agree those teams are strong thematically but still not well balanced. I'll follow up on this later.

Haven't started signup's yet. I need to crystalize these teams and nations first.

I think there were some concerns about the Haleheim/Arborean team being competitive late game vs. Tartarians and vs. the Astral teams globals/wish and so forth, not to mention very early on. Giving them Ashdod may do this mightily.

I am diverging from normal team game format where every team has all the bases covered (or tries to anyway), in favor of strong themes. A certain amount of redundancy is of course part of the theme format, don't know that theme based games are intended to be balanced or anything. Having nothing but Markatas or Blood in a game is obviously aiming for something different. They are for fun and role playing I'd think.

Since the series is single age (moving from EA to LA to take advantage of an increasinly difficult AI) it has been a challenge for me to discover and fit 4 distinct themes (that have real differences in capabilities) into a single age without using the multi-age mod. I think I've succeeded as best can be done with that matchup. But if DrP or Chris or someone can come up with a better matchup, with strong themes, and giving each team a dominance in one aspect or area, that makes it unique, lets have it. :D

[Septimius Severus]

I agree with Chris on bringing in R'lyeh for the Usurpers. They are actually the flagship as it were of the team (thematically) and have stronger astral than Arco. Arco may be best left to the AI team, which will include TC, Man, and Eriu. The foundations for an Arboreal theme or even a water based theme as all four have access to these paths.

Perhaps the fears with regard to Ashdod and Ulm, can be reduced by mandating Ashdod be played by a noob (which I believe is the custom with giant nations anyway). And by default 2 positions on each team are rear/flanking positions intended for noobs. Since they can't CT, this might reduce fears of them steamrolling early on or being in the thick of the action with lots of equipment.

[Stagger Lee]

Perhaps the fears with regard to Ashdod and Ulm, can be reduced by mandating Ashdod be played by a noob (which I believe is the custom with giant nations anyway). And by default 2 positions on each team are rear/flanking positions intended for noobs. Since they can't CT, this might reduce fears of them steamrolling early on or being in the thick of the action with lots of equipment.

Is that noob or newb. There is apparently a tremendous difference. ;)

[Gandalf Parker]

In this case, noob might have been correct. :)

[Stagger Lee]

In this case, noob might have been correct. :)

Hey, I resemble that remark! :D

[rdonj]

And yet another player learns how terrible call of the winds is for raiding :D That was one PD sept. So have you guys made your dispel attempt yet, or are you just going to continue not using magic for the rest of the game :P

[chrispedersen]

You mean there's more to life than blood and astral?
and empowering?

Nobody casts call of the winds for the troops. Its the information they give thats interesting... Like you said.. PD1...
You really might want to boost that. Or not = ).

[rdonj]

There is if you're a deva :D

Well, that province is... modestly useful. But not really worth a whole lot, to be honest. I have much more valuable provinces. I'm not going to waste pd on a province just so fomoria can cloud trapeze in something that's actually useful and knock it out. He sure seems to want the province though.

[chrispedersen]

Lands of Earth & Fire: Ulm, Agartha, Abysia Marginon
I still disagree with ashdod, but if you had to put it in, replace ulm. IE, ashdod, agartha, abysia, marignon

Sanguinarium: Mictlan, Jotunheim, Pangaea, Vanheim.
Mictlan becomes stronger with blood.

Supplicants of Set: Ermor, Shinuyama, C'tis, Machaka.

Usurpers: Pythium, Bandar Log, Arco, R'lyeh,
Only if one water province. Too strong otherwise.

[Squirrelloid]

Lands of Earth & Fire: Ulm, Agartha, Abysia Marginon
I still disagree with ashdod, but if you had to put it in, replace ulm. IE, ashdod, agartha, abysia, marignon

Sanguinarium: Mictlan, Jotunheim, Pangaea, Vanheim.
Mictlan becomes stronger with blood.

Supplicants of Set: Ermor, Shinuyama, C'tis, Machaka.

Usurpers: Pythium, Bandar Log, Arco, R'lyeh,
Only if one water province. Too strong otherwise.

Rlyeh is going to suck with only one water province. Seriously suck. Its best expansion strategy involves crab hybrids, which are of course useless without water provinces to expand into.

[Septimius Severus]

Hmm, I am starting to dislike the team name Haleheim as well. It is too close to Helheim and is probably derived from the same word. Lands of Earth and Fire, ehh maybe. Can anyone else think of a good name that symbolizes strength, power, and steel but doesn't necessarily spell out the paths involved?

Children of Crom? Companions of Crom?

Ulm is the flagship of the team, so I am not inclined to replace it with anything, especially Abysia since that is one of the only 4 MA nations with native blood. Sticking Ashdod in the back might be the only way to calm fears with them in the game.

MA Mictlan is too strong of an Astral power I think to be on the blood team. Their astral would help (since astral is the greatest contributory path for blood (horrors and so forth))but I beleive some or at least one of the blood nations already have a smattering of astral and that is really all I want them to have. Also MA Mictlan has no native blood and only a teeny, tiny, itsby bitsy random chance of a blood caster.

MA R'lyeh is the flagship of the mental magic/astral magic theme of the Usurpers. Powerful astral, and can summon void beings. I can stick em in a single underwater lake type province (similar to what we have in this game) without changing any map graphics (and thus making me do more work). The Caveat is their capital will take a resource hit in that it will not gather resources from neighboring land provinces. This however may not be an issue because they've versions of useful amphibious troops like lobo guards that are not resource intensive at all. Taking a +1 or +2 productivity scale will help to overcome some of this, and their may be a map edit that will allow me to boost the resources in the cap.

I am testing MA R'lyeh right now to discover more.

[Septimius Severus]

On second thought, disregard what I said about the astral power of Mictlan. They do have a level 3 Astral caster but they are not as powerful as Arco in terms of both casters and gem income.

I am still disinclined to take Abysia away from the Sanguinarium in favor of a non-blood MA mictlan. Also Abysia has no earth access at all, while Marginon does. Also Abysia has astral capable casters, just like Mictlan.

But I am still looking into it.

Edit:

I do like Chris' lineup for the Usurpers.

[Septimius Severus]

Chris has hit upon something that will work, I believe.

Lands of Earth & Fire: (Chris I don't trust your taste in team names anymore :D, I want another name if not Haleheim) Ulm, Agartha, Abysia, Marginon (this will work, though I hate giving blood to anyone else, as rare as it is)

Sanguinarium: Mictlan, Jotunheim, Pangaea, Vanheim.
If sanguinarium is going to drop Abysia, and take on anyone else it should probably be Mictlan or another suitable weak astral nation.

Supplicants of Set: Ermor, Shinuyama, C'tis, Machaka.

I like it.

Usurpers:Pythium, Bandar Log, Arco, R'lyeh,

I like it.

[Squirrelloid]

Ok, if there is only going to be 1 UW province, Rlyeh is useless.

(1) it needs UW provinces to make its expansion not suck, and its expansion is still pretty subpar without an awake SC pretender (with the usual choice being a kraken - a nonstarter here).

(2) it needs UW provinces to build forts in so it can actually recruit national troops. What's the point of being Rlyeh if you can't recruit starspawn except at your capital?

(3) it needs *at least* coastal forts so it can recruit *anything at all* other than independents.

Rlyeh already has a problem resupplying armies far from the water. You've just made that area the entire map. Only a moron would agree to play Rlyeh in this game. Seriously, what do those people supporting gimping Rlyeh like this think they're going to do? Why should Rlyeh be forced to play a 1 fort game while everyone else gets to play normally?

[Septimius Severus]

Ok, if there is only going to be 1 UW province, Rlyeh is useless.

(1) it needs UW provinces to make its expansion not suck, and its expansion is still pretty subpar without an awake SC pretender (with the usual choice being a kraken - a nonstarter here).

(2) it needs UW provinces to build forts in so it can actually recruit national troops. What's the point of being Rlyeh if you can't recruit starspawn except at your capital?

(3) it needs *at least* coastal forts so it can recruit *anything at all* other than independents.

Rlyeh already has a problem resupplying armies far from the water. You've just made that area the entire map. Only a moron would agree to play Rlyeh in this game. Seriously, what do those people supporting gimping Rlyeh like this think they're going to do? Why should Rlyeh be forced to play a 1 fort game while everyone else gets to play normally?

Good points squirrel though I did observe the following:

1. With the level of independents we will be playing with, R'lyeh was able to expand very well initially using only its starting amphibious force and a nice void lord or even a Wyrm.

2. R'lyeh could build costal forts in all of the cap neighboring provinces (and I can increase the number of cap neighbors up to a logical limit) and thus r'lyeh can have a pretty good starting supply of Hyrbrid units (Hybrid soldier, Hybrid troop, star children assassins (I love those guys).

3. We can further compensate R'lyeh with a pop/gold boost in the capital or another suitable map edit.

4. It would force R'lyeh have to be careful about where it puts its inland forts, something people are supposed to do anyway, choosing only provinces with strong indies and useful mages (amazons/gryphons/garnet , crystal mages, etc.)

Considering the above, the gimping might not be that bad and R'lyeh is just fun to play, hell, I'd even be the moron to play it, even though I vowed not to play in the next game (in the starting lineup). :D

The other option of course for the competitive\balanced minded players is my original lineup for Haleheim and the other nations, which you liked but DrP and Chris seem to have problems with, even with Ashdod relegated to the rear/noob postion. That is unless you guys want me to go back to the Arboreans.;)

So you've got a choice, my original lineup Squirreloid approved or Chris' alternate version. If only the fresh water terrain mask worked for coastal purposes.I suppose I could spread out a few other "underwater lake" sea provinces but whatever I do, I know I don't wish to do any work on the map graphics or the starting locations. Changing terrain masks is easy it just needs to make sense.

[Squirrelloid]

star children suck compared to starspawn. And even if we assume 5 total useful forts (or whatever) is fair, they're all clustered together, forcing Rlyeh, unlike everyone else, to be unable to make national units away from its capital. But I don't think Rlyeh can compete if it can't scale up its starspawn production. I know I wouldn't play Rlyeh with less than 10 UW provinces on the map.

[Septimius Severus]

Great points again. If R'lyeh is in the rear/noob slot, forts away from the cap may not be that much of an issue.

So lets let the legendary Dr. P, the wise Gandalf, or other interested knowledgable competition/balance minded third parties break the stalemate:

(option 1) We have my lineup and with Squirrel's stamp of approval attached:

Haleheim: Ulm, Agartha, Ashdod (in rear/noob slot), Marginon

Sanguinarium: Abysia, Jotunheim, Pangaea, Vanheim

Supplicants of Set: Ermor, Shinuyama, C'tis, Machaka

Usurpers: Pythium, Bandar Log, Mictlan, Arco

(option 2) And we have Chris Pedersen's wonderful alternative:

Haleheim: Ulm, Agartha, Abysia, Marginon

Sanguinarium: Mictlan, Jotunheim, Pangaea, Vanheim

Supplicants of Set: Ermor, Shinuyama, C'tis, Machaka.

Usurpers: Pythium, Bandar Log, Arco, R'lyeh (in rear/noob slot)

Once, I get this settled I can finalize my list of thematic pretenders from which players may choose and post a new preview.

[Gandalf Parker]

And Septimius, you get the great grand fun of a games admin career.
Coordinating a patch upgrade (not yet but probably before end game)
Yes? No? Its all together or none at all.
Wait until others test it and see if a b version comes out?

http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom3/dom3progress.html
19th february 2010
* Version 3.24

[chrispedersen]

Personally, I'm more worried about the ulm team than the Rlyeh team.

Rlyeh .. just add water. The amount of water you can debate.
But even with just one.... the ulm team is weaker.

[Septimius Severus]

Squirrel, I'm willing to add a few more underground lakes to the map. The good thing for the Usurpers, about the underground lake idea is that not only do they exist in real life but there's nothing that says they cannot be connected to each other via a series of "underground" streams, tunnels, crevices, etc.

And this could make the Usurpers, very powerful indeed because I could link these lakes via undeground connections that don't have any logical surface counterpart. 4 or 5 more in every corner of the globe and you've got a nation which will have the exclusive ability, early on anyway, to move from one side of the map to the other, and pop up and attack anywhere. And build 20 or whatever coastal forts around these 4 or 5 lakes. The flipside is that once Agartha and the human players can get into the water and get to one of them, they could attack R'lyeh cap directly. A fix is to have only one of these connect directly to the cap, with the others connected to each other.

The problem is the map is jam packed as it is, where to put these extra lakes, so they don't obstruct the land routes between AI, magic sites and opposing teams. This map is actually bigger than the current one. Remember, magic sites are purple X's. I could make the central magic site (the most powerful one) an underwater magic site, but don't know where to put the rest. Squirrel?

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/4206/naviistartinglocations.jpg (http://img535.imageshack.us/i/naviistartinglocations.jpg/)

[Squirrelloid]

Honestly, they don't have to connect to each other (although its cool if they do). I'd stick them under mountain graphics, since those are graphical areas of the map that don't have provinces, and thus they won't interfere with the routing of the map (other than possibly providing new ways around the mountains for amphibious or *sailing* forces (lol)).

[Septimius Severus]

Honestly, they don't have to connect to each other (although its cool if they do). I'd stick them under mountain graphics, since those are graphical areas of the map that don't have provinces, and thus they won't interfere with the routing of the map (other than possibly providing new ways around the mountains for amphibious or *sailing* forces (lol)).

Can't stick em under mountain graphics, not on this map anyway or on maps with border mountain provinces. I might be able add the sea terrain mask to some border mountain provinces (wonder if/how that combo would work) but that probably wouldn't cover them up completely. In the best case they might appear to ring the lake.

If they are to be connected, which would solve your issue of distance, they'd need to be far enough away from magic sites and the AI so the other teams don't complain about R'lyeh's easy access to both. The magic sites are a prize of sorts to the first team to reach em and hold them.

[Squirrelloid]

Honestly, they don't have to connect to each other (although its cool if they do). I'd stick them under mountain graphics, since those are graphical areas of the map that don't have provinces, and thus they won't interfere with the routing of the map (other than possibly providing new ways around the mountains for amphibious or *sailing* forces (lol)).

Can't stick em under mountain graphics, not on this map anyway or on maps with border mountain provinces. I might be able add the sea terrain mask to some border mountain provinces (wonder if/how that combo would work) but that probably wouldn't cover them up completely. In the best case they might appear to ring the lake.

If they are to be connected, which would solve your issue of distance, they'd need to be far enough away from magic sites and the AI so the other teams don't complain about R'lyeh's easy access to both. The magic sites are a prize of sorts to the first team to reach em and hold them.

I was suggesting just adding new provinces. Shouldn't even be that hard to do (add white dot in the center of the mountains so the game knows its a province, error check neighbor definitions and province definitions in the .map file, and add new ones for the new provinces).

[Septimius Severus]

Honestly, they don't have to connect to each other (although its cool if they do). I'd stick them under mountain graphics, since those are graphical areas of the map that don't have provinces, and thus they won't interfere with the routing of the map (other than possibly providing new ways around the mountains for amphibious or *sailing* forces (lol)).

Can't stick em under mountain graphics, not on this map anyway or on maps with border mountain provinces. I might be able add the sea terrain mask to some border mountain provinces (wonder if/how that combo would work) but that probably wouldn't cover them up completely. In the best case they might appear to ring the lake.

If they are to be connected, which would solve your issue of distance, they'd need to be far enough away from magic sites and the AI so the other teams don't complain about R'lyeh's easy access to both. The magic sites are a prize of sorts to the first team to reach em and hold them.

I was suggesting just adding new provinces. Shouldn't even be that hard to do (add white dot in the center of the mountains so the game knows its a province, error check neighbor definitions and province definitions in the .map file, and add new ones for the new provinces).

Oh you were suggesting I fiddle with the actual image file (something I didn't really want to have do and have no capable .rgb image editor at present) but I suppose yes, it might be possible. I was hoping you'd just be able to look at the map and say presto, this is where they should go without image editing. :D

Edit: I actually see 4 great locations for them in each corner of the map without having to actually touch the image file. There are problems with that placement though especially if connected. If not, well you'd just have to bust into the midst of the enemy camp to get at em. Would provide an incentive to destroy the enemy teams.

[DrPraetorious]

I'm requesting another 24h extension while my marketing team confers.

We appreciate your business and apologize for the delay - your Easy-Slay(TM) will be sent as soon as it is ready. Delays are sometimes inevitable and reflect the commitment to quality that embodies the spirit of team Easy-Slay(TM).

[Squirrelloid]

I support a 24h extension =)

[DrPraetorious]

I'm really, really hoping we get those extra 24 hrs....

[Septimius Severus]

Just getting in. I've received the delay request.

4 hours left, 1 turn Caelum, still outstanding. I'm putting in the 24 hours, just in case.

[Illuminated One]

No delay needed. Your forces managed to run away once again. :re:

[cleveland]

Hi all,

Septimius asked me to consult on some map image edits. I can put them together for you guys. But be warned that adding new provinces requires the whole .map to be redone - this means re-connecting all provinces and re-assigning all landtypes. I don't have the time to do the .map edits.

If someone's willing to do the .map edits, specify what you want done with the image file, and I can take care of it.

cleveland

[Squirrelloid]

Hi all,

Septimius asked me to consult on some map image edits. I can put them together for you guys. But be warned that adding new provinces requires the whole .map to be redone - this means re-connecting all provinces and re-assigning all landtypes. I don't have the time to do the .map edits.

If someone's willing to do the .map edits, specify what you want done with the image file, and I can take care of it.

cleveland

Redone is probably overstating it. You'd need to increment the current definitions for every province numbered later than at least one new province. So if you knew what the new province numbers were, you'd know which provinces need incrementing and how many they'd need to be incremented.

Then of course you just have to fill in data for the new provinces.

[cleveland]

Thanks for volunteering, Squirrelloid.

Just specify what you guys want. A rough jpeg would probably be best.

[Septimius Severus]

Thanks for stopping by Cleveland and looking into it. Sounds scary. If it can be done without a lot of extra work on my part, retaining my province connections and everything else, no prob. Cleveland, see my PM. I can provide a .jpeg with the desired sites, and .map and .rgb file as well of course. 4 sites, arranged around the center, in those border mountain graphic areas, will work fine for my purposes. I can connect em up later.

Without those image edits, the corners would be the only logical place for them that wouldn't obstruct things.

I've been toying around with the idea of introducing a single privateer/human played mercenary nation into the game for fun. In this case it'd be Altantis (as that is all that is left that is amphibious), based in the center of the map (the current center magic site).

Basically, a team could hire them in the Deva's Den. This nation for hire by the highest bidder, could loan out their services every turn or do a contract similar to the current in game mercs, 3, 4 or 5 months. I could make their cap off limits to human teams, to assure they stay in the game. A great position for someone who fancies themselves a pirate/freelancer of sorts, and can be played by anyone really. Your only bias is gold! No team communication to deal with, no diplomacy to wrangle. Hire us, and we attack your enemy for ya. :D

[chrispedersen]

that would be... fun...

[chrispedersen]

My internet is down.. can we get a 36 hour extension pls?

[Septimius Severus]

My internet is down.. can we get a 36 hour extension pls?

Request received. Sorry to hear that. Try to stay in touch with me via whatever means you can manage and let me know if the situation changes.

[Septimius Severus]

For game 2, I'm decided against the image edits, to keep things simpler for me, because the locations were irregular and too close to the AI and magic sites, and to implement my freelancer concept (see description in next post).

In addition to the subterranean lake in which R'lyeh's cap will be located, I'm creating 5 other underground lake (sea) provinces located in the 4 corners of the map and the former central magic site which will keep obstructions to the land game to a minimum. These 4 corner lakes will be connected to the central lake via underground streams/tunnels, but not to each other and not to R'lyeh's cap. See image below:

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/8590/naviistartinglocationsl.jpg (http://img109.imageshack.us/i/naviistartinglocationsl.jpg/)

[Septimius Severus]

Human Freelancer/Privateer nation:

A singe human played nation, in this case, Atlantis. This is great position for someone who fancies themselves as a mercenary for hire/pirate and wants to play without the complications of team communication and diplomacy. The position is impartial and unbias, thus can be played by anyone even game admins if need be. The player who plays can name them what they like, or I can give them a merc sounding aquatic name.

Simple rules:

1. The freelancer nation's thematic path is water and they are located in the cental underwater lake site.
2. The cap is inviolate and cannot be attacked and taken by human players (except to pass through the cap, see below).
3. The freelancers can attack indies but cannot attack the AI or human players unless under contract.
4. Freelancers cap can be located on water related magic sites, gold producing sites, given starting troops, or given Krakens for cap defense just in case.

The player can set up shop in the Deva's Den and can offer a list of services they are willing to provide to interested teams, requests can be made via PM to preserve anonymity.

Example services:

a. Province intel (scouting report) - 30 gold
b. Forge a water gem based item - 40 gold and up
c. site search (water only) - 75 gold
d. Stealth preach a target (for 3 turns?) 100 gold
e. Assasination attempt - 125 gold
f. Attack a single province or any province of a single nation AI or human:
- small attack (20 sacreds) - 150 gold
- medium attack (40 sacreds) - 300 gold
- kill them all! (60 sacreds) - 600 gold
g. Attack a team (any available provinces)
- 5 turn contract - 800 gold
- 10 turn contract - 1,600 gold
h. Toll passage (one way, granted to any army to move through the central cap for one turn) - 2,500 gold

These services help to offset the cost of recruiting troops and keep their prices competitive with in-game mercs. The above is just an example of what can be offered.

[DrPraetorious]

After my experience with overlords, I tend to think that the Freelancers are too complicated to really work. Also, based on my experiences with *this game*, having teams is complication enough for *anyone*! Do we really need any additional roles not supported by the rules?

It's never easy to say goodbye.

rdonj, who's been the director of research, development and brutality engineering since the inception of team Easy-Slay(TM), is leaving the easy-slay(TM) family for, we all hope, greener pastures. Let's all give him a big hand. We couldn't have made it this far without him. We've got this watch for him, and a gift basket full of the severed heads of our many enemies.

Industry veteran Frank Trollman, who is both the root and flower of despair, has agreed to take an interim appointment as research director and inspirational madman.

[Septimius Severus]

Well, I am sorry to hear of the loss of rdonj (I believe rdonj is dropping games to concentrate more on real world things), must remember that myself sometime. Even though currently my enemy, a fine player and adversary.

DrP, I never thought of teams as complicated, either you've got a team game or you've got free for all type game. The idea behind the privateer nation is quite simple: A single non-alligned or neutral nation (who can attack indies and can attack human players if payed or in self defense (something I forgot to mention). Hope I haven't overcomplicated things trying to make the inclusion of R'lyeh as simple, uncomplicated, and easy as possible for me and everyone else. Want to wrap up this planning as quickly as possible and shelve it.

I've come up with some other names to replac Haleheim, representing earth, fire, and steel. Had lots of fun coming up with them too:

Children of Crom *
Combustible Champions
Glowing Gladiators
Hot-Blooded Heroes *
Infernal Instigators
Fiery Foes
Madcap Men-at-arms
Nether(world) Knights *
Piping Paladins
Sizzling Soldiers
Subterranean Soldiers
Subterrenean Sentinels
Underground Upholders
Volcanic Vanquishers
Warriors of Wrath
White-hot Warmongers *
Wild Warlords

* = my personal favorites. :D

[Illuminated One]

Just in case chrispedersen doesn't need the delay I need it too.

The mercenary nations sounds like fun ... I guess if I get the chance Id play it but with the current suggestions it's much to cheap.
I mean 300 gold for 40 sacreds? A team can afford 6 such attacks on turn 1 and 40 sacreds attacking your cap on turn 2 are not exactly fun.
Maybe I understand this wrong, but the mercenaries should be more expensive than using your own forces, but more easily deployed.

[rdonj]

Thanks for the fine send-off DrP :D.

Yeah, that is exactly right septimius. Like I've said elsewhere dominions has been taking a lot of time I need for other things. NaV in particular has been taking somewhere around 4 hours a day of my time :). That's the biggest thing team games take from you... time. Communicating with allies, plotting, figuring out how you're going to accomplish x objective in y time. I guess they're also complicated in the same sense, the organization of multiple different player's turns. And planning for how you're going to defend yourself against 12 different nations simultaneously :).

Anyway, enemies of the Devas, don't rejoice too much over my departure. Frank Trollman is a fine player, and the Devas have many more tricks up their sleeves. Under the Trollman's guidance, I have no doubt that the latest in Easy-Slay(TM) technology will hit the markets in no time and be a smashing success.

[Stagger Lee]

You know, this thread is boring. Where's the drama? The passion?

rdonj is leaving, and here's his replacement.

:bored:

Won't somebody question his motives? His integrity?

:yawn:

Oh well.



Really, I'm sorry to see you go rdonj. We never actually got to square off (lucky for me). I'm sorry about that up there, but I saw your sub hunt thread for that other game - WOW!

Welcome Mr. Trollman. My wife has baked a nice pie. If you would just raise the gate and lower the drawbridge, so my messenger can bring it inside...

[Septimius Severus]

Just in case chrispedersen doesn't need the delay I need it too.

The mercenary nations sounds like fun ... I guess if I get the chance Id play it but with the current suggestions it's much to cheap.
I mean 300 gold for 40 sacreds? A team can afford 6 such attacks on turn 1 and 40 sacreds attacking your cap on turn 2 are not exactly fun.
Maybe I understand this wrong, but the mercenaries should be more expensive than using your own forces, but more easily deployed.

The 36 hour delay has been implemented, current nav.cfg reads 100 hours.

My above thanks goes to rdonj for participating. I of course extend it to everyone who has played, including Maerlande, Ghoul, Ling, Hoplo, Frozen, etc.

Illuminated, yeah I think the mercenary nation is a nice idea. It is not completely necessary, but would be a nice spin. Those were only suggestions of course. Whoever plays it is free to charge whatever they want for their services. The only service that I will likely require they provide is the toll passage, I suggest it be expensive to approximate what one would need to spend on assembling an army large enough to beat the magic site guardians which WILL be there if there is no Atlantian freelancer present.

Aside from 3 or 4 rules simple rules, I intend to keep it as simple as possible. They will certainly not be an overlord type nation, will not be made overly powerful, and cannot win or lose the game. Think of them as a tool a team can use. A more versatile and powerful version of an in-game merc.

You'll know "for whom the bell tolls", when you see that Atlantian banner approaching your provinces on land, or when you see a gurgling and bubbling in that underground lake in your backyard. It tolls for thee. :D

[rdonj]

Really, I'm sorry to see you go rdonj. We never actually got to square off (lucky for me). I'm sorry about that up there, but I saw your sub hunt thread for that other game - WOW!

Welcome Mr. Trollman. My wife has baked a nice pie. If you would just raise the gate and lower the drawbridge, so my messenger can bring it inside...

Heh, yes, my sub thread has gone completely insane. By the way, fine job you're doing stagger lee. You have brought about an unexpected surge in effectiveness of the blessed ones and are a real credit to your team.

[chrispedersen]

att didn't show. nother appointment for tomorrow. Sorry but may I have another 12 hours?

[Stagger Lee]

By the way, fine job you're doing stagger lee. You have brought about an unexpected surge in effectiveness of the blessed ones and are a real credit to your team.

Thanks, but I'm still really just moving around the fun stuff Immaculate left for me. :)

[Septimius Severus]

att didn't show. nother appointment for tomorrow. Sorry but may I have another 12 hours?

Ok, putting 12 more hours on the clock. If worse comes to worst, maybe Squirrel or another team member can submit the turns.

[chrispedersen]

Children of Crom *
Combustible Champions
Glowing Gladiators
Hot-Blooded Heroes *
Infernal Instigators
Fiery Foes
Madcap Men-at-arms
Nether(world) Knights *
Piping Paladins
Sizzling Soldiers
Subterranean Soldiers
Subterrenean Sentinels
Underground Upholders
Volcanic Vanquishers
Warriors of Wrath
White-hot Warmongers *
Wild Warlords

* = my personal favorites. :D

children of the crom?

[chrispedersen]

Really, I'm sorry to see you go rdonj. We never actually got to square off (lucky for me). I'm sorry about that up there, but I saw your sub hunt thread for that other game - WOW!

Welcome Mr. Trollman. My wife has baked a nice pie. If you would just raise the gate and lower the drawbridge, so my messenger can bring it inside...

Heh, yes, my sub thread has gone completely insane. By the way, fine job you're doing stagger lee. You have brought about an unexpected surge in effectiveness of the blessed ones and are a real credit to your team.

Sorry to see you go rdonj! Not the least because Frank scares the hell out of me = ). But seriously, thanks for the great game, and being a heckuva opponent.

[rdonj]

Really, I'm sorry to see you go rdonj. We never actually got to square off (lucky for me). I'm sorry about that up there, but I saw your sub hunt thread for that other game - WOW!

Welcome Mr. Trollman. My wife has baked a nice pie. If you would just raise the gate and lower the drawbridge, so my messenger can bring it inside...

Heh, yes, my sub thread has gone completely insane. By the way, fine job you're doing stagger lee. You have brought about an unexpected surge in effectiveness of the blessed ones and are a real credit to your team.

Sorry to see you go rdonj! Not the least because Frank scares the hell out of me = ). But seriously, thanks for the great game, and being a heckuva opponent.

As well he should :D

[DrPraetorious]

Okay, the turn just hosted "early", causing me to stale.

Now, in the past, we've done a rollback when this happened under the promise not to look at turns?

I haven't looked at my turn - so, I want to do a rollback so I don't stale. Staleing on this turn could (and I haven't looked, so I don't know) possibly end the game, I think, so this is something of a big deal....

[DrPraetorious]

Actually, scratch that. Since Sauromatia and I *both staled*, this is unlikely to have prematurely ended the game :).

Nonetheless - what do people want to do?

[Squirrelloid]

Yeah, I just noticed the same thing.

Given Dr. P and I both staled, unless someone else is doing something really nasty to me (and I haven't looked), I'm ok taking the stale if he is, but this is really getting silly.

Chris could say if there's any compelling reason for me to not want a stale so I don't have to look at the turn.

[Belac]

Children of Crom would be my vote for the name. It'd be a good match for Supplicants of Set.

I would also vote (although unless this starts in like 6 months I wouldn't be able to play) for option 1 on the lineup. A lineup with Ashdod plus 3 weak nations is better than one with 1 UW nation and wacky map contortions to fit it in.

I also think the mercenary idea is really cool, and I would love to play that if I thought there was a prayer of schedules working out.

[DrPraetorious]

I don't really think we can let this stale stand. The 3 stales are Sauromatia (yeah!), Niefelheim (boo!) and Caelum (double boo!).

I haven't looked at the turn, but it's 10 vs 4, and 2 of the 4 staleing vs. the scariest of the 10? It could be worse for us, but really...

[Illuminated One]

I'm for a rollback. Haven't looked at my turn either but I know it's not going to be good. Might be not much better if I play but I could at least do the messages... Will go with the stale if the majority is against that.
I'm sorry for squeezing out the deadline to the max the last turns but it's simply like that - when I have important stuff to do and time to do the dominions turn (I always check before going to sleep but I often can't check during the day) the next day I'll do the other stuff first. Quite simply I need a reliable deadline. Doing a 5-min the most important stuff turn is no option in this game situation as I then don't have a deadline to do the real turn.
I personally don't mind too much but it's bad for my team, so the next stale that happens whether that's caused by me or the timer I'll have to quit.

[Gandalf Parker]

OK game is rolled back. Ignore that last turn file and use the one from before that.

Or do I need to resend the turns from before that one just to be sure?

[pyg]

So I can get all those S2 mages back from chrispedersen?... and that Melqart?

[Squirrelloid]

Is everyone resubmitting a new turn, or just those of us who staled?

[Septimius Severus]

Just getting in. Hmm, you know I would have been happy without the rollback, but apparently Gandalf says he did it. Hope no one I attacked looked at the turn, I for one, prefer not to waste my time having to redo my orders. I like to get it done, get my turn in, get on with other things. I can't speak any more about the server, everyone already knows that waiting till the last moment can be problematic. Generally, only allow those people who staled need to resubmit (without looking at the new turns). Lets get it done.

DrP, it is actually only around 9 against the Deva's four. TC and Van are AI, and Yomi will be out of the game shortly.

[Septimius Severus]

Bellac, thanks for your input. Seemed everyone but you, me, and Squirrel were against Ulm and Ashdod in the first lineup. That is the reason why I went with option 2. The old heads aka/wise veterans (DrP and Chris) were ardently opposed. The merc idea was actually brought to the surface again, by the addition of R'lyeh and figuring a way to work them in.

Chris, Crom is the god referred to in the Conan stories. Ulm is apparently based somewhat on Germany and of course there's that whole barbarian thing going on there (just ask the Romans :D). Never could hold onto Germania in a lasting way. What's your preference by the way?

[Gandalf Parker]

Everyone who says they staled send in THAT turn now.

[Squirrelloid]

Everyone who says they staled send in THAT turn now.

Sent, in theory.

[Septimius Severus]

Very good. Waiting on Caelum and Neifel now, to submit the .2h's they were gonna send in for last turn. No peeking at the new turn. No one else submit anything. Lets get it over with and move on.

[chrispedersen]

Bellac, thanks for your input. Seemed everyone but you, me, and Squirrel were against Ulm and Ashdod in the first lineup. That is the reason why I went with option 2. The old heads aka/wise veterans (DrP and Chris) were ardently opposed. The merc idea was actually brought to the surface again, by the addition of R'lyeh and figuring a way to work them in.

Chris, Crom is the god referred to in the Conan stories. Ulm is apparently based somewhat on Germany and of course there's that whole barbarian thing going on there (just ask the Romans :D). Never could hold onto Germania in a lasting way. What's your preference by the way?

I know who crom is "by crom" he muttered.
I like puns.. so I was making a pun on children of the corn...
hmm...

What happened to *cause* the stale by the way? And I sure hope its only drp and squirrel and caelum ....

[Septimius Severus]

Bellac, thanks for your input. Seemed everyone but you, me, and Squirrel were against Ulm and Ashdod in the first lineup. That is the reason why I went with option 2. The old heads aka/wise veterans (DrP and Chris) were ardently opposed. The merc idea was actually brought to the surface again, by the addition of R'lyeh and figuring a way to work them in.

Chris, Crom is the god referred to in the Conan stories. Ulm is apparently based somewhat on Germany and of course there's that whole barbarian thing going on there (just ask the Romans :D). Never could hold onto Germania in a lasting way. What's your preference by the way?

I know who crom is "by crom" he muttered.
I like puns.. so I was making a pun on children of the corn...
hmm...

What happened to *cause* the stale by the way? And I sure hope its only drp and squirrel and caelum ....

I figured that might be a possiblity as well. Children of the Crom, indeed! ;)

By the gods man! I don't need puns, I need opinions. :)

[chrispedersen]

Bellac, thanks for your input. Seemed everyone but you, me, and Squirrel were against Ulm and Ashdod in the first lineup. That is the reason why I went with option 2. The old heads aka/wise veterans (DrP and Chris) were ardently opposed. The merc idea was actually brought to the surface again, by the addition of R'lyeh and figuring a way to work them in.

Chris, Crom is the god referred to in the Conan stories. Ulm is apparently based somewhat on Germany and of course there's that whole barbarian thing going on there (just ask the Romans :D). Never could hold onto Germania in a lasting way. What's your preference by the way?

I know who crom is "by crom" he muttered.
I like puns.. so I was making a pun on children of the corn...
hmm...

What happened to *cause* the stale by the way? And I sure hope its only drp and squirrel and caelum ....

I figured that might be a possiblity as well. Children of the Crom, indeed! ;)

By the gods man! I don't need puns, I need opinions. :)

Ok.. you're studly and will father beautiful children.

[chrispedersen]

Putting on my team captain hat...

if the server processed early (ie not a player fault) I'm all in favor of a redo. Fair is fair.

However, for our team grudge was only able to get in about 6 orders before he had to leave for his rugby tournament. Since my internet connectivity is spotty I had asked Squirrelloid to check and finish his turn.

As squirrel was one of the ones that had staled, I'd pretty much have to say that if we're not living with the existing turn I'd have to say squirrel has to be allowed to finish both turns he was to work on.

[Squirrelloid]

I have not touched grudge's turn yet - someone let me know if i'm allowed...

[Gandalf Parker]

It appears to be a server action.
So the stales now have a reasonable time to turn in their turns so we can process and move on.

[Squirrelloid]

Seeing no response from anyone, I've gone ahead and caused the arco turn to be done properly. (Grudge doesn't seem to have done much before he had to take off, so it was basically a stale as it was).

If anyone feels this is really inappropriate, gandalf can use the old 2h file. But i can't stress enough how much like a stale arco's turn was. (And, having no knowledge of what's coming, its not like giving arco a real turn is in any way unfair, especially since I would have done something with it anyway if the game hadn't hosted early).

[Septimius Severus]

Gandalf did the rollback because it was a server error and some of you felt you were not content to let things lie. That is fine and fair.

Regarding Squirrel and Chris' request regarding Arco, I gave instructions to Gandalf to make sure only the stalers submitted to prevent as much cheating as possible on the rollback and of course to speed things up. That has generally been our policy, as you all know. Allowing Arco to submit and no one else (other than the stalers) generally violates this policy. It would be unfair and inconsistent to allow it.

But I understand the situation with the Arco turn. Grudge had indicated that he was going away for the weekend and the turn came on rather unexpectantly. Thus it could be argued he was also affected by the server error. Therefore, I am going to allow the Arco exception this time, provided there are no objections. If there are, then it will not be allowed. Hope that is clear and fair.

So that is the situation. If I see any objections about Arco, the Arco resubmission will be disallowed.

Lets get moving one way or the other please. I will check back in at around noon EST Friday, to see if those turns are in (Neifel and Caelum) and to see if there are any posts objecting to the Arco submission.

Note: We may also still have the option (depending upon what Gandalf has done with the files and what he says) to just let sleeping dogs lie, i.e. use the turns we have (if anyone didn't get a turn, they can be re-sent, DrP mentioned Ulm didn't get a turn for some reason) and just move on. But Gandalf must give the OK, and there must be NO objections or complaints from anyone. (My personal preference :D).

[DrPraetorious]

Will send in the turn ASAP, but have to get back to the conference. It'll be in around noon EST (U.S.).

[DrPraetorious]

Okay, my turn is in.

Frank still isn't getting turns, though? I suppose it doesn't matter for this one.

[Septimius Severus]

Frank Trollman has been added to the e-mail list for Ulm. Gandalf can confirm by checking the file and reporting here. It may be an issue with Frank's e-mail client (spam filters, etc).

[Septimius Severus]

The hosting of the rollback is proceeding, no posts to the contrary or objections regarding Arco. The submission of the turns by DrP and Illuminated, evidence of their previously expressed wish to do the rollback.

Good luck, and I hope no one took advantage of any new information, it will be known if you did. ;)

[DrPraetorious]

I sent it this morning.... sending again.

[Illuminated One]

Hmm, the turn has hosted but I didn't get a mail. Please resend to me.

[chrispedersen]

Arco turn is corrupt. So is Mictlan. Am going to try to delete files and redownload.

Nevermind. that worked.

[Septimius Severus]

Hmm, the turn has hosted but I didn't get a mail. Please resend to me.

I'm resending to you just in case, though Gandalf has already probably handled it.

Seems I made a slight mistake in the e-mail turns list, this appears to have been the reason why Frank didn't get a .trn file and may have been the reason you didn't get yours.

I trust everything is resolved now though.

[Illuminated One]

Yeah, thanks got the turn now.

[Septimius Severus]

Game update:

We will be moving to a 72 hour host as of next turn, the polling having resulted in 4 to 0 in favor.

Team news:

The Deva abomination calling itself Knife Brite Insight has been vanguished.

I've completed an update to the NaV II Preview (see attachment).

Included is information on the Atlantian Freelancers/Privateers/Mercs:

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/6637/freelancers.jpg (http://img411.imageshack.us/i/freelancers.jpg/)

In order to retain thematic path purity and to ensure no team has the same pretenders, I've generally excluded certain rainbow pretenders and pretenders with paths that conflict with the main paths of the teams.

[Gandalf Parker]

Pros and Cons.
The design of the next game is becoming more scenario than most seem used to.
Of course I like it and would like to see more heavily themed and planned out games offered.

[Septimius Severus]

Glad to hear you like it Gandalf.

Yes, I generally put quite a bit of planning into most of my games. I enjoy the planning almost as much as the game itself. If I don't participate this makes it even more important.

Is this becoming more a niche game? Perhaps, I suppose some will be strongly drawn to the concept, others may not like it. I certainly won't put a gun to anyone's head to play (well maybe just a few :p). Victory conditions remain the same as any other team game.

Your right, it is good and important that we as a community continue to innovate in game design and offer game choices to players. Sometimes you just get tired of the same old, same old. FFA, Team, Comp Stomp, Team + Comp Stomp (NaV), RPG or Theme based, it's important to have all these types of games available for players not just games that really only differ from one another in in-game settings or map size.

[chrispedersen]

I know that grudge is travelling today (returning from Ft. Lauderdale.). Can we have an extra 24 hours please?

[Septimius Severus]

Currently 14 hours left on the clock.

Turns still outstanding:

arcoscephale
caelum
kailasa
mictlan
niefelheim
pangaea
sauromatia
tirnanog

Extension request recieved.
NaV.cfg = 64 + 24 = 88 hours.

[chrispedersen]

OK... I have internet (yay!). Only 1 week to get something done that should have taken 2 days. Anyway, I'll get mine in tonight.

Chris

[pyg]

Only 1 week to get something done that should have taken 2 days.

Yeah, the last 10 turns have been that way.

[Squirrelloid]

Ok, I've been sick since saturday, and I find it unlikely I'll actually have enough brain to finish a turn in the next 12h. I know we already extended once for 24h, but if we can do it again I'd appreciate it.

(Been totally screwing up my other games, but its only affecting me in those other games)

[Septimius Severus]

I'm adding 12 hours to the 4 hours currently on the clock.

Nav.cfg now reads 100 hours.

[Septimius Severus]

The following disclaimer will be included in the opening post of NaV II, it is also applicable to this game somewhat, and should have been posted, but this was very much a test run and at least a few things did not go as planned:

"Due to the size, scope, and communication required in team games in general (particularly this one), this game requires a substantial time commitment. Please do not join as an active participant (in the starting player slots) if you are involved in more than 1 other game unless you have a lot of free time on your hands."

[chrispedersen]

Just for the record sept.. I don't have *any* other games.
Life happens.

[Squirrelloid]

Seriously, I subbed into this because the team really needed someone. I had not planned on playing in such a massive game beforehand, and I stepped in because there was a need. Heck, I didn't even sign up for an alternate spot.

Regardless, 4 days is not an unreasonable amount of time per turn for a team game at this stage. I might have a turn in before it hosts given the current hosting time.

Perhaps I should sub out. Not that there seems to be an overabundance of people desiring to sub into this game. But its becoming increasingly clear that allowances for real life aren't living up to expectations. My team is already down a player, however, so it feels wrong leaving them in the lurch.

[chrispedersen]

Hey Gandalf/Sept...

This is the problem with two of my teammates having to make a turn in 2 hours.

Gandalf, can you respond off-line why arcosephale (who did submit a turn) got a stale result? I recognize what the likely answers are, just hoping you can tell me there is a mistake of some kind on your side = ).


Chris

[Gandalf Parker]

Not server side error Im afraid.

[GrudgeBringer]

I know this...I sent in the turn with Approx 4 hours left and sent it to our 'room'. There is no possible way I could have staled.

[GrudgeBringer]

I just checked my 'sent' file to be sure.

It went to nav@dom3minions.com at 2:31 PM CST. IF I staled I would like an explanation in terms that I can understand.:mad:

[Gandalf Parker]

The check file said the file you sent was turn 49 instead of turn 50.

you can check this yourself by running dom3 with a verify switch. If your files are in a NaV directory then you can run
dom3.exe --verify NaV
and view the early_arcosphale.chk file you get

[Stagger Lee]

Grudge - I think this may be what I did a few turns ago. If you leave the game by saving and quitting, instead of End Turn, you haven't ended your turn. The .2h won't update to the server until you end the turn.

If I'm right, is there any reason not to always quit by ending turn, as opposed to save and quit? Even when you know you're going to come back to it?

[rdonj]

Nope, no reason whatsoever. Save and quit is purely for SP.

[chrispedersen]

Grudge - I think this may be what I did a few turns ago. If you leave the game by saving and quitting, instead of End Turn, you haven't ended your turn. The .2h won't update to the server until you end the turn.

If I'm right, is there any reason not to always quit by ending turn, as opposed to save and quit? Even when you know you're going to come back to it?

The more common problem is attaching a .2h while you are the turn is still open on dominions.

The turn will attach - but will be empty and blank.

[Septimius Severus]

Just for the record sept.. I don't have *any* other games.

Smart man. One other game is probably doable. But I certainly don't recommend more than that.

Seriously, I subbed into this because the team really needed someone. I had not planned on playing in such a massive game beforehand, and I stepped in because there was a need. Heck, I didn't even sign up for an alternate spot.

Regardless, 4 days is not an unreasonable amount of time per turn for a team game at this stage. I might have a turn in before it hosts given the current hosting time.

Perhaps I should sub out. Not that there seems to be an overabundance of people desiring to sub into this game. But its becoming increasingly clear that allowances for real life aren't living up to expectations. My team is already down a player, however, so it feels wrong leaving them in the lurch.

I appreciate your commitment to team. There have been plenty of allowances for real life and I will continue to make allowances when appropriate.

There are not many active team games to reference on Llamaserver in comparison with the huge number of FFA, but if you take a survey of the team and regular games there, the average is around 72 hours for games that are at or around turn 50 which is right where we are and where we should be. We also started at 32 hours, which is more lenient than most, we were at 40 hours till turn 20, which again is longer than FFA because I realize the communication needs. I haven't taken at look at the dom3minions team games, but I suspect it is probably the same. When we had huge size teams we never

Regardless, we've been far exceeding our scheduled hours on a regular, repeated, and consistent basis for quite some time now. Some of which is reasonable and could not be helped, some of which could be in my opinion. Which does concern me, because it means either I am not giving enough time to players (and the hosting interval increment needs adjustment) or players just don't have the time. Heck, when we had 12 people on a team in NvV we didn't have this problem, so something else is going on. Hence the reason for the incorporation of a that disclaimer for game 2.

Speaking of which, we should be at 72 now. I am adding 8 hours to the clock and will follow-up with Gandalf to make sure we are at 72 hours for the next 10 turns at least.

I do place a greater emphasis on team identification, immersion, and communication than many other small size team games which attempt to avoid this via smaller teams and various other artifices designed to limit or avoid these natural complexities. I certainly don't want anyone ever to complain they don't feel like they are part of a team when playing my games. I can't force communication on people, but it is really the only thing that seperates FFA games and SP games from team games.

[GrudgeBringer]

aaaaaaarrrrrrggggggggggggggggg

[chrispedersen]

I know it may seem like handholding; I still its a good idea for a server.

Why not reject a turn if its the wrong turn, prior to processing?

ie something like:


receive turn:
.
Various checks
.

see if turn is for current turn. If yes, accept, if not
reject and send email 'wrong turn number'.

[Gandalf Parker]

It already sees it and and puts it on the Turns_Check.txt

It also sends an email. I can include you on that if its ok with Septimius but bouncing back to the sender is more difficult.

[Stagger Lee]

Sorry guys. I really thought I had until tonight for this turn. Can I get a 6hr extension?

[Septimius Severus]

With 5 turns still outstanding, I am extending the current turn 8 hours due to Stagger's request. I've asked Gandalf, if possible, to add an additional reminder e-mail at the 24 hour mark and the old will be moved from 9 hours to 8 hours.

Since adding more time to the regular clock doesn't really appear to solve anything here (the regular 8 hour increment excluded), if we reach a critical point (without any concessions) of exhaustion, disinterest, or of players being just too busy, the game will likely be wound down instead of dragged out and a winning team declared based on preponderance in the score graphs.

[Septimius Severus]

In the planning for NaV II, I've decided to nix the global alternates positions. Diplomacy, inter-team communications, trade, merc hiring (if present), will be handled by default by team advisors and alternates (if present) unless otherwise waived. If no one is available for these roles, these roles will be handled by the Captain.

Three simple freelancer rules:

1. Freelancer capital is inviolate. No human team may attack and capture by any means except to pass through and only after paying suitable toll. Freelancer forts are open to attack, but freelancers must allow passage through either with toll payment.

2. Freelancers can attack indies, but may not attack AI or human teams or nations except when they've been contracted or payed to do so or in self defense. Self defense limited to retaliatory strikes (i.e. recapturing provinces, retaking forts, returning magical attacks, etc). Any provinces captured in the course of business belong to the paying client who will be responsibile for taking/retaking them. PD will be set to 1. Any unclaimed provinces may be auctioned off.

3. Freelancers may offer a range of services to human teams (assassinations, scouting, province attacks, remote attacks, forging items, etc) and are free to charge whatever they want, but must make their services available to all human teams equally and without bias. All services to be perfomed on receipt of payment in gold only.

As you know Gandalf has threatened to go ballistic on the human players in game 3. So I thought I'd have some fun and recommend some (not too serious) team names and themes to him. Here are a few:

Gandalf's Goofy Gonzos/theme = nations with beserker units/insanity dom.

Gandalf's Gore Gluttons/theme = blood

Gandalf's Groovy Gang/theme = songs and tunes

Gandalf's Gorgeous/Glamor Gals/theme = nations with at least 1 female unit

Gandalf's Grumpy Geezers/theme = nations with old age units

No offense intended of course. :D

[Septimius Severus]

aaaaaaarrrrrrggggggggggggggggg

aaaaaaarrrrrrggggggggggggggggg

[chrispedersen]

.... and the lamentations of their women...

say are we going to update to 3.24?

[Septimius Severus]

.... and the lamentations of their women...

say are we going to update to 3.24?

If there's a new patch (and I haven't been keeping up with things), from what I recall, if/when Gandalf updates the version on the server that is running our game, then we'd all need the new patch if the nature of the patch makes it so and if memory serves me right and I am correct, the game won't allow you to play an older saved game that has not been patched.

If I am correct, and we will probably need to hear from Gandalf on this, I am of the opinion that for the duration of this game we all remain un-patched if possible. Unless that is there are some earth shattering changes in the patch that would make its adoption absolutely necessary for games in progress or someone needs to patch for participation in another game.

[Gandalf Parker]

Totally up to the person running the game. Ive had the patch on my machines for awhile now (beta tester) but the server always copies the old exe to a different copy for games that want to continue unpatched.

You call it Septimius. Update now? next turn? next game?

[Squirrelloid]

Given I am in some other games, I think I prefer to remain unpatched until and unless the others start updating (the horror).

[pyg]

A new version of Dominions has just been released. The LlamaServer has shut down until llamabeast has a chance to update it.

You can still send in turns as normal (with either the new or old version), and the LlamaServer will process the backlog when it has been patched.

Before you update your copy, make sure to backup your entire Dominions directory. You may find you will still nee d the old version available for a few days for other multiplayer games you're in.


Since all my other games are llamaserver games I vote to update before next turn. That way I don't need to run two different versions.

[GrudgeBringer]

Iam sorry, but I am with Squirrel on this...

I am in a number of games and admin in 3 of them. We are getting into the mid to late stages and I am not going to take a chance on screwing up these games if we don't need the patch.

If it works regardless if you have it or not, then I guess we can all suit ourselves. But I for one am not updating until my games have reached a conclusion as it just wouldn't be fair to the 30 some people left in them.

[chrispedersen]

YeeHAW

999 bloodslaves and we got the Arcane Nexus to boot!

[Septimius Severus]

Unless something has changed from what I remember it to be and the new patch is backward compatible with the previous patch saved games, we really cannot patch unless and until everyone in the game is able to follow suit (meaning a community wide patching in every game on all servers) unless we want to ditch players or force them to run two versions of the game.

If there a possibility there will be a follow-up patch to this one soon to correct any issues this patch may have introduced that the beta testers have not yet discovered, it may be wise to wait. Otherwise, I am personally fine with patching and getting it over with. Reminds me to have a look at the update log.

[Septimius Severus]

Grudge and those in games on Llamaserver, it would appear that Llamabeast is automatically upgrading to the new patch, affecting all games in progress. Therefore we will likely have no choice but to patch the current turn (meaning you'll need the patch) to use the next turn you receive. If someone knows something else or Llama is allowing admins to choose like Gandalf, let me know. I may institute a delay on the current turn to see what happens with Llamaserver, other games, and to give people time to patch.

[rdonj]

Llama has always patched as soon as one becomes available. Since it seems the llamaserver has already patched, it is likely that everyone will have to patch shortly.

[Gandalf Parker]

In general I would recommend updating.

As far as shaking up the game, its going to become the unusual egg anyway. The servers copy will be updated and all other Dom3 games on the server will be updated. The NaV scripts, if it doesnt update, will be rewritten to use a personal copy for the game alone. It SHOULDNT be a problem but it does mean it gets a "shaking up" possibility.

And, from my experience, somebody (especially in a newbie game) will update. Thats difficult to back up from so everyone else gets forced to update.

Just my 2 cents.

[DrPraetorious]

Yes, we should update the game.

[Septimius Severus]

Gandalf has patched the server copy of our game. I had a question about whether the situation regarding different .2h's was the same on Gandalf's server as it was on Llamaserver, but apparently Gandalf believes it won't make a difference whether you patch and then upload the current .2h or upload then patch. Fine either way as Llama seems to have indicated.

So he recommends the following with regards to our game:

"Id say for people to patch and do their turns. And if they already did one then open it, resave, and resend."

I am adding another 24 hours to the clock to give people time to acquire and apply the patch and submit their turns. Remember, you'll need the patch to open the next turn you get whether you patch now or not.

You can get the patch here:

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/Illwinter/DOM3/DOM3_page.html

Good luck and happy patching!

See attached for an Updated NaVII Team Preview

[Septimius Severus]

I'm adding 24 hours to the current turn to allow time for any more players who need to patch and to honor a delay request by Chrispedersen.

[Squirrelloid]

I don't know where my team is... don't suppose they could be given 6h or something, if Sept is watching this.

[Septimius Severus]

Ok, I'll throw another 6 hours on the clock and see what happens.

[chrispedersen]

We suspect that the turn hosted early. I am sending a message to Gandalf and Sept.

[DrPraetorious]

It most certainly did not - I was watching the timer.

[chrispedersen]

When the timer on the page said 5 hours to go, that corresponded to 1:30am for Grudge.

Grudge got up at 12:30 am and sent the turn. And was staled.

The current turn was sent March 17, 17:28.
The last turn was sent March 13, 12:27.

Since 6 hours was added to the time, it *clearly* shows it hosted an hour early.

March 13: 1227
March 14: 12:27 (24 hours)
March 15: 12:27 (48 hours)
March 16: 12:27 (72 hours)
March 17: 12:27 (96 hours)
March 17: 18:27 HOSTING TIME.

And since it hosted at 17:28 IT HOSTED AN HOUR EARLY.

[Gandalf Parker]

The timer never says time to go. It gives an absolute time, and an approximate countdown in hours. Which I have always said "sucks".

But testing it at the moment, it says
The game last hosted on Tue Mar 16 22:27:33 PDT 2010
And should host again on Fri Mar 19 22:27:00 2010
The NaV.cfg is set for 72 hours, approximately 34 more hours.

I have 12:22
plus 24 hours would be
12:22
plus 10 more would be
22:22
For an approximate countdown its not looking too bad.

And everything on my system from timer logs and including a pretty clear sequence of emails, seems to show that you missed the stated hosting time (not the countdown) by one minute. I have no idea what the countdown timer was.

Everything I have on it has been sent to Septimius

[chrispedersen]

Gandalf;

Just look at my previous entry in the thread. I listed the time of the previous turn, and the time the current turn.

They hosted 101 hours apart, not 102. Ie., an hour early.

[Gandalf Parker]

That might have been because of daylight savings time in my area. The clocks rolled back an hour.
Im not sure how. But it still would have reflected plainly on the webpage.

[GrudgeBringer]

Just in case there is a doubt...is there any way I can copy my 'sent turn' file and post it so it shows I sent it in BEFORE 12:30 AM CST (lol, well 2 minutes before, but before):confused:

[GrudgeBringer]

Daylight savings time rolled forward not rolled back 1 hour, and that could be the loss of the hour... but that still doesn't account for the fact that I actually SAW the time as 1:30 AM and then when I was setting it up noticed it had become 1 AM. This isn't a figment of my imagination. And Dr. P, if you where up watching it, you would have seen the same thing (unless of course it only happens in CST).

Now that I have p*#@*d off everyone, I will retire from this conversation as I have dona all I can to explain it to everyone.

[Gandalf Parker]

You can post the headers but that only says when you sent it. Not when it was received. There tends to be a fair difference in that on the net (in fact, internet rules allows for 5 hours). But I will accept the fact that you meant to send it minutes before hosting.

[Septimius Severus]

Players, Gandalf simply cannot fix the issues regarding the accuracy of the countdown timer as displayed on the nav_chk.cgi page to his satisfaction (the part that says "approximately x more hours").

When this became known, I warned players about relying on it and waiting till the last minute to submit turns, and left the countdown timer in as a courtesy, because without it everyone must do their own countdown math. But I did ask for a disclaimer, so Gandalf chose to put in the word "approximately".

So going forward, you have your choice of either

1. No countdown timer (you will all have do your own math as to how many hours to go)

2. Or keep the countdown timer and add a more descriptive warning and disclaimer to the effect "the countdown to the next host is approximate and not to be relied upon, it is provided as a courtesy, and the admins will not be held responsible for anyone who relies on it or stales because of it"

If I hear no responses, the countdown timer will be removed as it appears people are relying upon it despite the warnings that have been issued.

[Gandalf Parker]

OK at Septimius request the game has been rolled back.
the force timer is off. awaiting arcos

[DrPraetorious]

Ah, you're right, daylight savings time.

It still hosted *five hours late* and you *didn't request an extension in a timely fashion*!

My team has already started to do our turns and may not have time to redo them, even and aside from my complaints about the timing. I've never been pleased about the rollbacks but this one is over the line, at least for me. I'm going to check with my team but I think we may have to bow out at this point.

[Septimius Severus]

Ah, you're right, daylight savings time.

It still hosted *five hours late* and you *didn't request an extension in a timely fashion*!

My team has already started to do our turns and may not have time to redo them, even and aside from my complaints about the timing. I've never been pleased about the rollbacks but this one is over the line, at least for me. I'm going to check with my team but I think we may have to bow out at this point.

I am inclined to agree with you DrP. Players had plenty of time with two extensions and were warned about the accuracy of the countdown timer. The countdown timer has been removed as a result and therefore cannot be used in the future as an excuse to claim server error or request a rollback. If all teams agree I am more than happy to call the game at this point (as an alternative to sequential concessions) and declare a winner based on preponderance in the score graphs. This must be agreed to by all team captains though.

[chrispedersen]

Dr. P:

To be technical, last a recent previous turn, Septimus added hours because caelum hadn't had his turn in by hosting time. No one requested it- or complained when it happened.

In this particular case, I had previously advised Sept I would be travelling, and I asked for an extension - and sept granted it. Squirrel asked for an extension- and sept granted it.

So actually, yes, the extensions were properly requested.

As I showed in my previous post, the game posted an hour early. Forget all the talk about the countdown counter etc.

I will note that in fairly identical circumstances on 2-25 when two of your team members staled due to an early hosting you were all in favor of a redo.. and in fact politely insisted.

"I don't really think we can let this stale stand. The 3 stales are Sauromatia (yeah!), Niefelheim (boo!) and Caelum (double boo!).

I haven't looked at the turn, but it's 10 vs 4, and 2 of the 4 staleing vs. the scariest of the 10? It could be worse for us, but really..."

Despite the fact that it was advantageous for your team, I supported your request for a rollback. Additionally, on 12-07 your position was:

"We certainly cannot make exceptions based on specific tactical situations in order to be "more fair". Either don't do rollbacks at all (which works), or, if you do a rollback, for technical glitch reasons or whatever in the future, let everyone resubmit turns before the rollback goes through."

So it seems that your position changes according to whether it benefits your team.

[GrudgeBringer]

I will try and make myself clear 1 more time...

I have to get up and train every day at 4 AM for 3 hours to play a game that lasts 80 minutes. I say this because I understand if we don't take the field at the appointed MINUTE, that game time is forfeit time. Car trouble doesn't count, family doesn't count, illness doesn't count.

Game time is forfeit time.

However, if the official would say "ya know the game is around a certain time and I'll make the decision based on how I feel so live with it," and you end up forfeiting a number of times,then you have to make a decision if all that training is worth it.

I could care less if you roll this turn back or not, whether Dr P and his team wins the game or not, or if I play in another one of these games or not. I was only trying to say I ACTUALLY saw the dang timer change and I set my alarm to account for the fact that it could change agian. I never asked for it to be rolled back, I was only (and rightfully) upset that I did everything I could do and it STILL made me stale and I let my team down.

And then was told that someone was watching the timer and it didn't change....Well, it DID change, and I am also tired Dr P of spending a good portion of the few hours I have free trying to get this turn in and not have a fixed deadline, so I understand your frustration.

Congrats to the winners!! Good game to the losers!!

Thanks Chris and Squirrel for teaching me a number of things I didn't know. Game over gentlemen

[GrudgeBringer]

Chris...clean out your in box please

[DrPraetorious]

That's true, I did take one rehost. When the game hosted I believe *6 hours* early, after we had requested an extension *days* ahead of time.

Your team requested an extension, what, 3 hours before the game hosted?

Anyway, I'm sympathetic with Grudge Bringer, but everyone else is also busy, and if we're going to do rollbacks all the time, then everyone else will be unable to meet deadlines.

[GrudgeBringer]

I have one question then i will retire from this conversation...

Does it matter if you request an extension 2 days in advance or 2 seconds in advance...as long as the admin says yes?

[chrispedersen]

That's true, I did take one rehost. When the game hosted I believe *6 hours* early, after we had requested an extension *days* ahead of time.

Your team requested an extension, what, 3 hours before the game hosted?

Anyway, I'm sympathetic with Grudge Bringer, but everyone else is also busy, and if we're going to do rollbacks all the time, then everyone else will be unable to meet deadlines.


Actually DrP, I requested attention to it (and an extension, before the previous turn was in, on Tues of last week, saying that I was going to be out Thursday - Sunday night, and wasn't sure I would be able to turn it in monday.

Bringing up timing is rather specious - as other requests -including some of your own - were also done with 2 hours notice. Check the thread.

[Septimius Severus]

To answer Grudge's question. Generally, players should allow as much time as possible for the admin to act when making delay requests and should both post on the thread and PM. I have honored requests whenever I've been able to get to them, sometimes lucky enough to catch them at the 2 hour mark sometimes not, sometimes without both a PM and public post. Doing all I could to make sure as many players are as happy as possible. As DrP noted, many other people are busy and contrary to what may be thought, your admin has other things to do as well.

This rollback was one I regretted doing more than most (though I regretted all of them). Frankly I found the determined, unrelenting, insistence on a rollback for a single turn stale to be just going overboard (a hint as to the importance of Arco in ACGHHS strategy perhaps). It was authorized largely only due to the inaccurate countdown timer still being present without a full warning and disclaimer to accompany it (which was partly the fault of the admins) even with the warnings that were issued in the thread.

Arco seems to have staled a few times in the past, don't quite know why, so I am guessing this is why Chris felt the need for the extraordinary hoopla. The rollback was done using the old Arco .2h that was sent in after the server hosted to minimize any cheating attempt.

Gandalf's experiment at Dom3 PBEM hasn't turned out exactly the way we hoped (which is why direct connect will be used in the future) but I believe he and I have done our best to satisfy players, as it is ultimately your game people. I am not interested in who wins or loses, just that people submit turns on time, the game keeps moving, and people are enjoying themselves.

So captains you've got three choices:

1. Shall we just move on at this point (and put in a no rollbacks for the remainder of this game policy regardless of any server issue)

2. Should we reverse the rollback (which may be possible I still have the old 13 .2hs)

3. Or shall I call the game now and you will be forced to accept my ruling on the score graph analysis?

#3 will only take place if all agree. PM me your decision. Talk it over amongst yourselves and your teammates. Silence or indecision will result in #1 happening. If you find your team members are quitting it is best you choose option 3. Option 3 will also be pursued if I see mass stales without any agreement. Just to let ya know. These choices will be PM'ed to captains.

Good luck.

[DrPraetorious]

"Undoing" the rollback only works if we still have the old homeland file, which will be needed if Pyg and Frank are to reuse the turns they already did. Generally I think that'll just lead to Chaos, although I can hardly complain.

Frank wants it called - Pyg and Illum have been making noises about calling the game for some time.

For future reference - am I the only one who likes VP accumulation? My suggestion for future team games would be:
* 2 VP in each team captain's capital
* 1 VP in each other player capital and in each AI capital (if there are any.)
* Things should be called after the late game has started but before it has dragged on forever; that is, about now. This'd be 50VP total for the team, I think, to claim victory.
* VP accumulation discourages turtling.
* No rollbacks, even if the server catches fire or the admin maliciously deletes .trn files. If you allow any rollbacks at all, you get rollback creep, where in the spirit of fairness you have the give rollbacks.

[chrispedersen]

Sept,

Again, even if you had ignored the countdown timer, the game hosted an hour early (or two if you count DST).

Arco sent his turn in 1 minute after (according to Gandalf) the turn hosted. Or 59 minutes before it should have been due.

I don't see how anyone can regard rerolling to let a player get his turn in is 'unfair'. There is no preknowledge. I would think everyone would want players to get turns in as a matter of sportsmanship.

And yes, Arco staled a few recently; and when it became clear it was his mistake I dropped it. But when its *not* his fault, c'mon!

Going forward, I will play with whatever rules you want to set. But I think going forward with no rollbacks is a serious mistake.
There have been a number of issues with the server. What are we going to do if the game hosts with half the players unsubmitted?
Change the policy again?

I think the standard is and ought to remain that we do rollbacks on server error or serious bug.

As a suggestion, I think that if you think you might declare a winner in the future from the graphs, I suggest you determine the formula now so there is no argument or subjectivism.

You might base it on capitols, gems, or provinces. And I'd say you'd have to list what you consider a winning margin to be. So for example, if it were based on capitols - would having one more capitol be enough? Is having 10% more gem income enough.
I'd also suggest you *not* make it on income.

So to formally answer:
Yes, go forward. I don't see how using the first turn without arco is more 'fair' than using the turn with arco.

No, I think we should continue the policy rollback upon admin discretion.

And no, I think the game is interesting, hotly contested, with fun options for most players and with the number of players available on each team I think we should continue, finding players if necessary.

And as I was ninja'd by Dr. P somewhat, I am think using accumulated VP as he suggests is perfectly fine.

[Septimius Severus]

DrP, I do have the old fatherlnd file and all the old turns and .2h's, if need be, I assume that is what you meant by homeland. Activating or using VP's? Never really felt the need, but I will consider it as a possibility.

One thing we instituted in one of the venerable NvV games was a moratorium on globals. I forgot about it this time. This allows teams to focus on regular tactics without major things hanging over them, evens out the experience level gaps (may not be as strongly pronounced in game 2), and gives teams an equal chance to make inroads before things like arcane nexus and astral corruption come on line. I am strongly considering it for say 50 or 75 turns.

Chris, I would have prefered a PM from you, but your post is sufficent. It is not strictly unfair that we allowed a staling player to resubmit, but as Gandalf noted (countdown timer aside) he did miss the mark by 1 minute. Gandalf has not said anything regarding any irregularities due to daylight savings time and the server. We simply cannot make it a regular practice to do rollbacks just because of that, there's a time limit and turns need to be in on time.

Regarding the score graphs (gotta love em) they make it easy for me to determine a winner without any VP's (why I like them in). Don't care whether people think they are flawed are not or don't tell the whole story. It will be noted that when the Mysterios came in against the Deva's back in the 30's, the Deva's were the leader in the majority of the categories. The Deva's then lost ground but have recovered somewhat. If I need to do a score graph analysis it will be like the first one I did. The leader in the majority of categories (not counting VPs) will be the winner. Plain and simple, like it or don't. No formula, no nonsense.

So I've got 1 vote, for option 1 (there will be a no rollback rule like it or not for the duration of the game, you deal with it or concede). I've got one vote for option 3, which is apparently nixed unless someone changes their mind.

2 votes still outstanding from Agema and Algae.

On a side note, I have a great deal of respect for Grudgebringer. A reliable sub, and a stand up player. Though perhaps not the most computer savvy (by own admission), if Grudge says a thing happened, I am inclined to believe it, but no one is questioning that, just wanted to say it.

[GrudgeBringer]

Thank you...thats all I wanted....

[rdonj]

Personally I would probably just call it a draw if you quit. I'm not really up to date on how the game is going, but it seems like no one can quite manage to finish anyone else off (even yomi, which has been struggling for a long, long time).

[Septimius Severus]

Rdonj, the Mysterios and Blesseds at 2 nations each are basically out of the running (they'd likely not stand a chance against either ACGHHS or The Deva's). It is pretty much between the Deva's and ACGHHS at this point. If option 3 is selected, and I haven't looked at numbers yet, one of the two will likely be leading in the majority of categories. It will be noted that if the Deva's lose, it was largely due to the alliance of the 3 teams. Thanks for the input though.

Yes Grudge, no one is questioning your honesty. Just wanted that known.

Awaiting word from Algae and Agema.

[DrPraetorious]

It's primarily an issue with timing.

Secondarily, I do feel a bit cheated - I tried a major gamble which worked, and then failed on the rehost. This is one reason I hate rehosts - I don't enjoy having a gamble work on the rehost but feel strongly cheated when it worked on the original and then fails on the retry. If the rehost were immediate that would be one thing, but with 24h to plan on followup, we have to redo not just the entire turn, but the strategic discussion that *followed* this most recent turn. So if we're going to play another turn we need to turn the timer off and I have no idea how long it's going to take us to figure out what to do next.

As for fairness: at this point in the game, time to do turns is the main issue. It's unfair to use the rehost *because we are busy* and because if you give people 101 hours to do their turns, they ought to be able to do them. Grudge bringer is not that much busier than the med students, HIV researchers etc. on my team, no offense, and we managed to get our turns in on the original deadline.

So -
* If we roll back the rehost, I've *done my turn already in the 24h it took for the rehost to go through* so we might as well keep playing.
* If we don't roll back the rehost, personally I'm willing to concede. We can call this a win for Chrispedersen et. al. as far as I'm concerned.
* Regardless, if we keep playing, my teammates and I are not interested in dealing with any rehosts at all any more. If we don't have a no-rehost policy (regardless of server glitches) we're done.

For the record, I don't accuse Grudgebringer of any dishonesty either.

[chrispedersen]

Dr. P:

It wasn't a question of having the turns done, or not done. Grudge had his turn done more than 5 hours in advance.

Since we are separated by 19 hours of time zones, we were trying to get time for Squirrel to sign off - that everything was ok.

I specifically asked grudge to act as gatekeeper: to hold off on his turn till an hour before it was due. Despite the fact that it was due very late at night he agreed to do so.

Both he and I noted the timer, noted the time the turn was due - agreed when he was going to submit. Show me where the flaw is here!

[GrudgeBringer]

Arrrrggghhh, LOOK, I only said what I had to do to emphasize that this isn't life, and while I am disappointed if I lose a game on here, it isn't like I just lost my dog or something.

I am a busy person, no busier than anyone else that has responsibilities, but busy. I don't run to my computer and see with great anticipation if the 'turn' came in so I can sit down and do it right then. Or for that matter talk 4 hours of strategy with my teammates, but that's just me.

I DO however manage to budget my time, and the couple of stales that I had before 1 was the timer (agian) and 1 was told to my team that I would be out of town playing.

I schedule my time so that when things settle down I can try and get my turn done, and honestly, this is usually towards the end of the time we have. MY problem with this is that there is no definitive time...its approximate, or around etc. Try working that schedule with your Med students and see where it gets you (about the same place it gets me with my employees I would suppose).

The timer failed...cut and dried, end of story. If you feel you got cheated, hell..re roll it agian until your happy with the outcome. SOMEONE is going to get the bad end of the stick, why should it be you. When I got in this thing, I got in it to learn from very good players that had been around a long time. Instead, it seems I blundered into a game that reputations are on the line, or egos are going to be hurt.

Yesterday, DrP and the boys where going to bow out, I was done, and Sept was going to use his ultimate wisdom to declare a winner.

Bad Blood is forming here guys, and it will last beyond this game if we are not careful. It is not that important to me who wins if I learn something I can use later.

JUST LET IT GO GUYS, the game is screwed and let Sept declare someone a winner. Me, I vote for the AI... the only one with no axe to grind.

[chrispedersen]

Personally I would probably just call it a draw if you quit. I'm not really up to date on how the game is going, but it seems like no one can quite manage to finish anyone else off (even yomi, which has been struggling for a long, long time).

Nah, Grudge isn't quitting. He's just hot headed = ).
Edit: Hmmm I may be wrong = )

[DrPraetorious]

Dr. P:

It wasn't a question of having the turns done, or not done. Grudge had his turn done more than 5 hours in advance.

Since we are separated by 19 hours of time zones, we were trying to get time for Squirrel to sign off - that everything was ok.

I specifically asked grudge to act as gatekeeper: to hold off on his turn till an hour before it was due. Despite the fact that it was due very late at night he agreed to do so.

Both he and I noted the timer, noted the time the turn was due - agreed when he was going to submit. Show me where the flaw is here!

The flaw is that this is not how any of the other teams have done things and I don't think you should be allowed to request extra time for this.

I haven't "vetted" a single turn from any of my team-mates, I just advise them and let them do what they choose to do. Occasionally we look at each others turns but I don't think we've ever handed around .2h files.

They've made a couple of mistakes that I would've caught - also tried a few things that I wouldn't have thought of which worked - but I've been handling this as a team game, which means everyone does their own turn.

SO my revised position is this: I no longer have any sympathy for your supposed time constraints. You guys shouldn't have gotten the extension in the first place, b/c your violating the spirit of the game with your entire turn handling pipeline. This sort of thing is impossible to police, let us be clear that I'm not accusing you of cheating, but if this is your procedure for handling turns then you should be forced to fit it into the alotted timeframe or you should stale.

[Septimius Severus]

3 votes received. No response from Agema.

2 votes for option 3.
1 vote for option 1.

All four captains must agree to option 3. This has not happened.

Option 1 it is. The game continues at least for now. Until all 4 captains agree to accept my ruling or teams concede.

A. The countdown timer has been removed.
B. The delay wording on the main post has been revised from 48 to 24. Request your delays in 24 hour intervals.
C. There will be NO more rollbacks for the remainder of the game, I don't care if the world explodes. :) A message to that effect will be posted in the opening post and I will instruct Gandalf to display it on the turns received page to make sure you DON'T forget it. If you don't agree, you may concede.

Now submit your turns, stale, or concede. Those are your options. I've been too indecisive this game (though I get accused of being dictatorial), my mistake. Lets have a nice fast moving, no nonsense, end to this game. I've still got a lot of work to do on NaV II, and I'd like to get to it.

(If you need more time for the current turn, please formally request it).

Good luck.

[DrPraetorious]

I think that we are conceding but give me time to poll my teammates.

I'm formally requesting that we turn off the host timer at least until we decide what to do next.

[Septimius Severus]

I'm not going to turn off the hosting timer. I will grant you a 24 hour extension? (I may grant another one afterwards). Do you want that? Speak up now or send me a PM and post when you decide.

[Squirrelloid]

Honestly, I have no idea what's going on anymore...

That said, the server has been remarkably buggy and this is no way to run a reasonable game. People need to be able to know and plan on when the turn is going to host. The way they do that is by an explicitly posted deadline - which we sort of have. Except then the timer does weird things, or it hosts before that time, or other weirdness occurs, so the posted time (as read at time X) isn't accurate half the time.

This is a huge issue. If people fail to get turns in despite submitting before what the posted time was, that is a problem.

Honestly, for non-llamaserver games (whose timer seems to be accurate), I vastly prefer what pashadawg does - sure, it requires hosting by hand, but it always hosts at the announced time and never early for any reason.

[Septimius Severus]

I'm not that familiar with Pasha's games, I assume by looking at the recent rand game that he manually hosts them himself on his own computer or something similar. Don't know how regular the schedule is or anything.

Automatic hosting as used on Llamasever or in Gandalf's server via direct connect seems to be fairly accurate and reliable. So that will not be an issue next game. Direct connect also actually facilitates team play more than PBEM, as a team can use a common password (or post their individual password on their forum) when creating their pretenders enabling the advisors, captains, and all team members to easily view and in some cases submit turns for all team members (the equivalent to what Chris is doing with his common team e-mail box). Direct connect should also result in faster and an in-game accurate timer. No files to move around, get lost, get confused, etc.

I am putting in a 24 hour delay on the current rolled back turn (the last turn in your inbox) to allow more time for decisions, submissions, concessions, etc, as per my last post above:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showpost.php?p=736358&postcount=1485
Lets get it on, or get it over with please.

[DrPraetorious]

Yes, we are conceding.

Well played, all!

[chrispedersen]

Well, I wish you wouldn't Dr. P. Its been fun matching wits with you and your team. Whether its Phoenix pyring hinnom giants... stone sword weilding gargoyles, or seemingly endless hordes of Niefle jarls, you each played them to a T.

But, if thats the way its to be congratulations on a game well fought.

[Illuminated One]

Thanks for playing everyone.

[GrudgeBringer]

I learned a BUNCH of things I had never even thought about before!!!

One good thing that did come out of this game is that Sept now has a grasp on how he wants to handle turns and he won't face that problem agian.

It seems to me that the other team games where settled a lot quicker than this one was ( I subbed on the Noob side against Baalz and his minions). As this game went on it became more intricate than anything I have ever been involved in. I think everyone (lol, except maybe Chris as he thrives in this environment) was getting just a little burnt out as the game could hinge on EVERY turn, It takes it's toll.

I just want to say, in all honesty I respect AND admire all of you guys on all teams. You are all so much more knowledgeable than I am that I felt like I was running just to keep in sight of your dust.

I am certainly not mad at anyone, I just felt like I was getting blasted for getting my turn in at the last moment and the machine kept faulting and made me look more incompetent than I am/was.

Thanks for everything, I have no idea who won except me for all I learned!!:up:

[Septimius Severus]

Hats off to DrPraetorious and his team. I will look into VPs or just setting a possible final termination point though not sure VPs by themselves would have helped us much here in keeping things from grinding on. Seems both sides were struggling to make any lasting gains and few if any human capitals were taken. Did having having open diplomacy help or hurt in dragging things on? In this case, it probably saved ACGHHS, the Deva's clearly dominating without it. Neither the Blesseds nor the Mysterios really stood a chance without the ability to ally due to their collective inexperience versus Chris and DrP.

Unless I hear from the remaining three captains that they wish to play on, for perhaps learning purposes (as I don't believe what's left of the combined Blesseds and the Mysterios would be able to beat ACGHHS, though they might have fun trying) I will call the game and declare ACGHHS the winner. Exhaustion having settled in for many. PM to be sent for confirmation.

There should be no bad blood between anyone in any game for any reason. We are a tiny obscure community, ultimately all we have is each other. Corny but true.

[chrispedersen]

If there is interest in continuing on, I am willing.

I'm also willing to switch sides.. So for example if Squirrel wanted to captain Achoo and I take over Devas

[Septimius Severus]

Correction to my above post. There should be no bad blood between players in any game except for instances of confirmed, deliberate, repeated, and willful cheating. Rare but such things do happen, although I don't believe this has been the case here and would not have significantly altered the outcome if it did occur, though attempts may have been made. I wasn't expecting the intensity of the rivalry between Chris and DrP. You would have thought their very lives depended upon it. Though I do believe Chris, the more "adamant" of the two. ;) Not that it is necessarily a bad thing.

So yes, if any captain and their crew, or any individual players wish to continue, you may do so. Provide me with the details and I can turn anyone AI. Let me know before this turn is up or for those of you who have become "mute", your turn submission may speak for you. As for myself, while I wouldn't mind steering my remaining forces into ACGHHS (I do so love attacking players) for the fun of it , I'd probably much rather concentrate on finishing up work on the next game and attempting to ensure that I can provide a much smoother experience for all. I've no doubt this will be the case.

[GrudgeBringer]

The way I read this Sept, you infer that there MAY have been attempts to cheat in this game.(see below) I think that is a pretty strong statement considering the gentlemen that played in this particular game. Being competitive is one thing...outright attempts at cheating is a completely different ballgame.

While I don't think this was directed at me (I don't have the knowledge to change anything), I do take offense at the statement in general unless you have more than speculation to back it up. The people who played in this game deserve a 'Hearty, well done' for fighting through all the problems, subs, and time taken to play it. It doesn't deserve a 'Dirty Death'.

My opinion of course:sick:


There should be no bad blood between players in any game except for instances of confirmed, deliberate, repeated, and willful cheating. Rare but such things do happen, although I don't believe this has been the case here and would not have significantly altered the outcome if it did occur, though attempts may have been made.

[chrispedersen]

Correction to my above post. There should be no bad blood between players in any game except for instances of confirmed, deliberate, repeated, and willful cheating. Rare but such things do happen, although I don't believe this has been the case here and would not have significantly altered the outcome if it did occur, though attempts may have been made. I wasn't expecting the intensity of the rivalry between Chris and DrP. You would have thought their very lives depended upon it. Though I do believe Chris, the more "adamant" of the two. ;) Not that it is necessarily a bad thing.

So yes, if any captain and their crew, or any individual players wish to continue, you may do so. Provide me with the details and I can turn anyone AI. Let me know before this turn is up or for those of you who have become "mute", your turn submission may speak for you. As for myself, while I wouldn't mind steering my remaining forces into ACGHHS (I do so love attacking players) for the fun of it , I'd probably much rather concentrate on finishing up work on the next game and attempting to ensure that I can provide a much smoother experience for all. I've no doubt this will be the case.

I wouldn't mind if you attacked Sept.. laughing in a way I know you've been looking forward to it.. but I don't want to do another turn unless we know we have a significant group that want to continue.

[Squirrelloid]

I would rather stop if the Devas are withdrawing.

I'd like to congratulate Dr. P on a game well played. There was some intense back and forth combats there, i certainly had no reason to think we were coming out on top. (I'm sure the rest of his team played well too, but I mostly saw Niefl activity).

[Septimius Severus]

Nah Grudge, I was not inferring your team or anyone else cheated. Was just speculating. Certainly couldn't stop and can't tell if anyone looked at any new turns during rollbacks or not. I really can't guess what people have or have not done. Only the person knows. But as I said, don't think anyone here engaged in anything inappropriate (stuffing labs, etc). And I did everything I could to ensure a fair game and would not allow it to be any other way.

As for yourself, I've always said you were a reliable player, though I think you may have been a bit overburdened timewise with the number of games you were in and your outside commitments. Can't speak for others, but for me, my max is 2 games (especially team games), I don't usually have time for more.